Grant Holt

[RIP Bestie]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.

[Centre Hawf]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.

So is Holt good or is it Lennons fault? Who do I boo?

[Col_0762]

I love Tommy McIntyre

[RIP Bestie]

So is Holt good or is it Lennons fault? Who do I boo?

What do you think?
Boo who you want.
I know what I would respect

[Captain Trips]

For what its worth Holt IMO has been average for us, I do not give a toss about what level any signing played at before. Its what is done while here that counts.

Holt is judged as a Hibs player not a Norwich striker from a few years ago. We have signed players who have also played at a high level and been dross.

[RIP Bestie]

For what its worth Holt IMO has been average for us, I do not give a toss about what level any signing played at before. Its what is done while here that counts.

Holt is judged as a Hibs player not a Norwich striker from a few years ago. We have signed players who have also played at a high level and been dross.

Youre not getting it.
He was signed to do a specific job.
Who's fault is it that the way he has played all his days doesn't fit into what we can do as a team?

[Captain Trips]

Youre not getting it.
He was signed to do a specific job.
Who's fault is it that the way he has played all his days doesn't fit into what we can do as a team?

I think I do get it but since I have not played the game at any level I must be beneath discussion with you.

If you can indulge me what is it Lennon wants him to do that is so different from his career thus far?

[Swedish hibee]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.

If we all thought the same- we'd be living in North Korea.

ps. I think he's a donkey. Sorry.

[Unseen work]

Forgetting his past, if we had signed him from say Morton and he put in the same performances would you be happy?

He has scored 3 goals and were at the half way stage of the season.

He should score a lot more.

[Captain Trips]

Forgetting his past, if we had signed him from say Morton and he put in the same performances would you be happy?

He has scored 3 goals and were at the half way stage of the season.

He should score a lot more.

Apparently it is down to Lennon not operating the right system for him to flourish. Again fwiw I think he is ok player but the reason he has scored 3 goals is his own fault.

[RIP Bestie]

Apparently it is down to Lennon not operating the right system for him to flourish. Again fwiw I think he is ok player but the reason he has scored 3 goals is his own fault.

Really? His own fault?
What do you see his game is and what do you think Lennon signed him to do?

[Scouse Hibee]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.

I stopped reading when I got to the pish about posters not playing at any level of football. It's pointless getting into a discussion with you as you are clueless as to the knowledge of a football supporter.

[BSEJVT]

Really? His own fault?
What do you see his game is and what do you think Lennon signed him to do?

Excellent another top class coach whose opinion is the only one worth listening too.

There's a lot I like about Holt but the simple fact is that he was signed as a striker

His goal scoring record is abysmal and he now panics when he gets a sight of goal.

There are 2 possibilities here IMO:

1) Either he is playing well below the expected standard

or

2) More worryingly, Lennon hasn't a clue what he is doing

There is no way that we should have been signing a non scoring forward (even if his only role was to bring other into the game)

Our midfield has an appalling shooting record, let alone scoring record and signing the greatest link up player in the world (which Holt hasn't shown me he is) wasn't going to change that.

The fact that he is in and out the team would tend to lend credence to the idea that Lennon hasn't got what he thought he was getting

[Colr]

For what its worth Holt IMO has been average for us, I do not give a toss about what level any signing played at before. Its what is done while here that counts.

Holt is judged as a Hibs player not a Norwich striker from a few years ago. We have signed players who have also played at a high level and been dross.

We've signed players with a good track record before. They do nothing at Hibs, move on and do OK again. It's been the same problem under quite a few managers now, loads of pressure but not enough goals.

I blame the gypsy curse.

[bingo70]

I agree with the general point the op is making however the unnecessary argumentative style of it confuses me.

If you're too knowledgeable about football to discuss it with us amateurs why bother starting the thread?

[andyf5]

I agree with the general point the op is making however the unnecessary argumentative style of it confuses me.

If you're too knowledgeable about football to discuss it with us amateurs why bother starting the thread?

Perhaps the time of the original post is a clue to the thread and the words....

[Captain Trips]

Really? His own fault?
What do you see his game is and what do you think Lennon signed him to do?

Hmmmmm score goals and set up goals probably being likely but having not played the game wtf do I know.

[neil7908]

Sorry but he's not done anywhere near enough in the games I've seem him.

He wins the odd header and lays off a few passes but I think his legs are gone now.

I really think some fans are gradually forgetting the standard of teams we're up against. He's a centre forward who has only scored 3 goals in half a season playing against part timers!

As another poster alluded to this but if he was an unheard of signing from a lower league team I suspect there would be nowhere near as much patience offered.

[IanM]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.

calm down Grant, some of us like you

[Booked4Being-Ugly]

Playing to a decent level or not the stats tell the true story - he has scored 3 goals so far!

If the team were scoring goals for fun and he had something like 10 assists then I would perhaps agree with the OP but the fact is we are struggling to score a sufficient amount of goals to see us win this league comfortably.

FWIW - Stephen Dobbie is closer to the kind of stats we require from a striker with 10 goals and 4 assists so far this season. Even Paul Cairney has more goals from midfield!

[Col_0762]

Hmmmmm score goals and set up goals probably being likely but having not played the game wtf do I know.

He never has and never will be a 20 goal a season type centre forward. He's big and awkward and there to ruffle a few feathers and try and bring others into the game. It's not pretty to watch at times but he does a job and Cummings for example has commented on how much he enjoys playing with him and how much he's learned from him. That's a big part of his signing, to help bring on the others who are a bit younger and less experienced. He moaned a few times at Cummings at the weekend for being too far away from him at goal kicks. He's playing as well as trying to coach, for like of a better word, during games. Like I say, not pretty to watch at times, but he's contributing a lot more than meets the eye. If you're going to judge him on goals alone or assists, that's extremely unfair on Holt. His game is the part about two or three stages before goals are scored. Occasionally, he'll get on the end of things as a Brucey bonus.

[Captain Trips]

I never said he was a 20 goal a season player, but I do thank you for the lesson on what people don't see me being one then.

[Col_0762]

Playing to a decent level or not the stats tell the true story - he has scored 3 goals so far!

If the team were scoring goals for fun and he had something like 10 assists then I would perhaps agree with the OP but the fact is we are struggling to score a sufficient amount of goals to see us win this league comfortably.

FWIW - Stephen Dobbie is closer to the kind of stats we require from a striker with 10 goals and 4 assists so far this season. Even Paul Cairney has more goals from midfield!

We're struggling to win games because the like of Cummings' finishing is shocking. I love Jason, but he needs 10 attempts in a game to score. What was the chance he had in the first half like, one on one, needs to slide it past the keeper and he lifts it chest high, straight at the goalkeeper. It's pathetic and been a problem the last two or three years now. Imagine what his stats would be like if he took his chances? And he's not the only one, Boyle and Keatings are as guilty. When any of them are one on one are you confident we'll score? We need them to not over think it. Just finish the chances. Obviously that comes with confidence etc but our goal to chance ratio I would imagine is extremely low and is a big reason we're still in this league and a big reason we're hitting the skids again just now. We should have been three up after 25 minutes on Saturday. But our finishing let us down. They should be staying for an hour after training just finishing. Maybe they are mind you, I don't know, but it looks to me like they aren't. Even things like controlling the ball with their weaker foot. How many times did Cummings give the ball away trying to control the ball with his left foot rather than his right? He makes it awkward for himself. Just flung that pet hate in at the end since I wrote a novel lol. But you know what I mean. I can't even mind what ****ing point I was trying to male now haha.

[Col_0762]

I never said he was a 20 goal a season player, but I do thank you for the lesson on what people don't see me being one then.

It's not a lesson. You don't have to be a ****er about it. I just made a few comments having seen him play over the years and commented on things his team mates have said about him. Football fans have always not seen certain things a player does for his manager. And will continue to do so forever. We see them once a week for 90 minutes and if we don't get immediate results we slate them. Sometimes the wider picture needs to be looked at, that's all. Smile man, it's Christmas.

[Captain Trips]

We're struggling to win games because the like of Cummings' finishing is shocking. I love Jason, but he needs 10 attempts in a game to score. What was the chance he had in the first half like, one on one, needs to slide it past the keeper and he lifts it chest high, straight at the goalkeeper. It's pathetic and been a problem the last two or three years now. Imagine what his stats would be like if he took his chances? And he's not the only one, Boyle and Keatings are as guilty. When any of them are one on one are you confident we'll score? We need them to not over think it. Just finish the chances. Obviously that comes with confidence etc but our goal to chance ratio I would imagine is extremely low and is a big reason we're still in this league and a big reason we're hitting the skids again just now. We should have been three up after 25 minutes on Saturday. But our finishing let us down. They should be staying for an hour after training just finishing. Maybe they are mind you, I don't know, but it looks to me like they aren't. Even things like controlling the ball with their weaker foot. How many times did Cummings give the ball away trying to control the ball with his left foot rather than his right? He makes it awkward for himself. Just flung that pet hate in at the end since I wrote a novel lol. But you know what I mean. I can't even mind what ****ing point I was trying to male now haha.

We are struggling to score more because the play in the final 3rd is woeful. From crossing to killer passes all the forward thinking players have let us down more often than done well. I again like Holt but regardless of what anyone says on here about him, I have been watching football long enough to understand plenty and on the whole Holt has been a let down as have lots of others.

I find this being told look he is doing stuff you dont see etc very patronising. Holt should have scored more goals in this league.

[Danderhall Hibs]

We're struggling to win games because the like of Cummings' finishing is shocking. I love Jason, but he needs 10 attempts in a game to score. What was the chance he had in the first half like, one on one, needs to slide it past the keeper and he lifts it chest high, straight at the goalkeeper. It's pathetic and been a problem the last two or three years now. Imagine what his stats would be like if he took his chances? And he's not the only one, Boyle and Keatings are as guilty. When any of them are one on one are you confident we'll score? We need them to not over think it. Just finish the chances. Obviously that comes with confidence etc but our goal to chance ratio I would imagine is extremely low and is a big reason we're still in this league and a big reason we're hitting the skids again just now. We should have been three up after 25 minutes on Saturday. But our finishing let us down. They should be staying for an hour after training just finishing. Maybe they are mind you, I don't know, but it looks to me like they aren't. Even things like controlling the ball with their weaker foot. How many times did Cummings give the ball away trying to control the ball with his left foot rather than his right? He makes it awkward for himself. Just flung that pet hate in at the end since I wrote a novel lol. But you know what I mean. I can't even mind what ****ing point I was trying to male now haha.


Some good points made in here, some I've been making for.a few seasons now. Nothing ever seems to change.

[BSEJVT]

We're struggling to win games because the like of Cummings' finishing is shocking. I love Jason, but he needs 10 attempts in a game to score. What was the chance he had in the first half like, one on one, needs to slide it past the keeper and he lifts it chest high, straight at the goalkeeper. It's pathetic and been a problem the last two or three years now. Imagine what his stats would be like if he took his chances? And he's not the only one, Boyle and Keatings are as guilty. When any of them are one on one are you confident we'll score? We need them to not over think it. Just finish the chances. Obviously that comes with confidence etc but our goal to chance ratio I would imagine is extremely low and is a big reason we're still in this league and a big reason we're hitting the skids again just now. We should have been three up after 25 minutes on Saturday. But our finishing let us down. They should be staying for an hour after training just finishing. Maybe they are mind you, I don't know, but it looks to me like they aren't. Even things like controlling the ball with their weaker foot. How many times did Cummings give the ball away trying to control the ball with his left foot rather than his right? He makes it awkward for himself. Just flung that pet hate in at the end since I wrote a novel lol. But you know what I mean. I can't even mind what ****ing point I was trying to male now haha.

If Cummings finishing is shocking how does he score the number of goals he does?

What does that say about Holts finishing given their respective scoring rates / ratios?

I don't mind Holt at all but I have to say the major disappointment I have with him is his complete lack of composure when presented with a chance.

Some of his attempts have been absolutely woeful.

[Col_0762]

We are struggling to score more because the play in the final 3rd is woeful. From crossing to killer passes all the forward thinking players have let us down more often than done well. I again like Holt but regardless of what anyone says on here about him, I have been watching football long enough to understand plenty and on the whole Holt has been a let down as have lots of others.

I find this being told look he is doing stuff you dont see etc very patronising. Holt should have scored more goals in this league.

But we're still making chances? Look at the chances first half at the weekend; Cummings, Commons, Shinnie and Gray I think it was. Four near as hell sitters. Take even two of them and the game is over. That's where the problem lies with me. No one is trying to patronise you I don't think, we all want the same things but Holt doesn't miss nearly half the chances others do.

[Captain Trips]

It's not a lesson. You don't have to be a ****er about it. I just made a few comments having seen him play over the years and commented on things his team mates have said about him. Football fans have always not seen certain things a player does for his manager. And will continue to do so forever. We see them once a week for 90 minutes and if we don't get immediate results we slate them. Sometimes the wider picture needs to be looked at, that's all. Smile man, it's Christmas.

What's the wider picture then? What is going here that we are not seeing? I am not on his back but I expect more from him and the forwards and I am right to as we currently sit 2nd. If we were top and the forwards were flying then fine but we are not therefore I blame the manager and some of the players for not converting chances or setting up chances, Holt is one.

[HibbyAndy]

I like Holt.

[Captain Trips]

But we're still making chances? Look at the chances first half at the weekend; Cummings, Commons, Shinnie and Gray I think it was. Four near as hell sitters. Take even two of them and the game is over. That's where the problem lies with me. No one is trying to patronise you I don't think, we all want the same things but Holt doesn't miss nearly half the chances others do.

So Holt doesnt miss the same amount of chances? Possibly not but how many chances has he had and scored 3?

[Col_0762]

If Cummings finishing is shocking how does he score the number of goals he does?

What does that say about Holts finishing given their respective scoring rates / ratios?

I don't mind Holt at all but I have to say the major disappointment I have with him is his complete lack of composure when presented with a chance.

Some of his attempts have been absolutely woeful.

He scored the number of goals he does because we create chances. How many times do we have umpteen chances on goal and score one or two goals? Imagine the results if we took our chances, even just a third of our chances in matches and we would be winning two or three nil every week. I understand folks frustrations with Holt but he doesn't miss as many chances as others around him. Mind you, his heading has been woeful in front of goal I would say.

[Captain Trips]

I checking out of this debate as for me I think Holt is ok but there is a lot more to be negative about than positive on his time here thus far and that goes for other forwards.

I do not want to appear to be slagging of Holt and blaming him for our ills.

[Col_0762]

So Holt doesnt miss the same amount of chances? Possibly not but how many chances has he had and scored 3?

I honestly don't think he does, but then again, he's never in the position others are to miss the chances. But that's a different argument.

[Ozyhibby]

I think the only reason some are defending Holt is because he's been on Match of the Day.
He is failing at Hibs right now. I don't give a monkeys what he's achieved in the past. 3 goals half way through the season in the Scottish championship?Come on. And it's not like he is setting up chance after chance either.
The fact is, he can't cut it anymore. His legs have gone and he has lost that edge you have when you are at your peek. It happens to all players eventually. And that doesn't just mean you can drop down one or two levels and play there. Sometimes it means you struggle against any pro level. That's life. And it's happened to Grant Holt. And it's not coming back.
It was a poor signing that we are now going to have to spend money on a replacement in January.
And it's not just amateurs like me who see it. Neil Lennon, who played at a level that surely is high enough for his opinion to count for some posters also knows it. That's why he keeps dropping him. The problem is that Graham is not very good either.
A good number 9 was needed in the summer and we failed miserably. It's going to cost money to fix in January.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blackpoolhibs]

Youre not getting it.
He was signed to do a specific job.
Who's fault is it that the way he has played all his days doesn't fit into what we can do as a team?

Was that job to play wide or deep, and fall over at the slightest touch trying to con the ref, or was it to play centre forward and hold the ball up in dangerous areas, bully defenders, maybe chip in with a few goals and create goals and space for others?

If its the later then he's done and doing very little of that at all, if its to play left back or left wing, then he's doing a cracking job, and the space he's created for Lewis Stevenson has been terrific.

I'm not getting it either, what was this specific job he was brought in to do?

[J-C]

If Cummings finishing is shocking how does he score the number of goals he does?

What does that say about Holts finishing given their respective scoring rates / ratios?

I don't mind Holt at all but I have to say the major disappointment I have with him is his complete lack of composure when presented with a chance.

Some of his attempts have been absolutely woeful.



He scores the number of goals because players like Holt give him the space to do so but Cummings unfortunately need 2-3 times the amount of chances to score, if he halfed that he'd score 30+ a season. We as a team need to be more ruthless in front of goals, we miss far too many chances to skoosh this league, there was enough chances created on saturday to win 4-0.

[Bishop Hibee]

We need two goalscoring forwards to get us promotion. Holt doesn't score enough. Cummings when played regularly does. We need a new forward in the window.

Holt was a good player and you can see glimpses of it but he's past it now. We can't afford three players as slow as him, Commons and Shinnie in the starting XI that's for sure.

[J-C]

Was that job to play wide or deep, and fall over at the slightest touch trying to con the ref, or was it to play centre forward and hold the ball up in dangerous areas, bully defenders, maybe chip in with a few goals and create goals and space for others?

If its the later then he's done and doing very little of that at all, if its to play left back or left wing, then he's doing a cracking job, and the space he's created for Lewis Stevenson has been terrific.

I'm not getting it either, what was this specific job he was brought in to do?


You might want to look at his strike partner to answer your questions G, Holt was constantly shouting at Cummings, pointing to spaces on the pitch where he wanted him to be. I feel because we've not got any wide players, he slips into the space that's available to try and create something, Play 3 up top and let Holt play through the middle with Keats/JC and Boyle either side going wide.

[The Leith Dutch]

I have a lot of time for Holt.
Intelligent player who's main value is in bringing others into the game and holding up the ball.

You can see he's difficult to play against for all that he isn't scoring a lot of goals.

I'd play with 3 up front pretty much every game:
Holt, Cummings and Boyle.

Teams find it easy to set up against us because we play one way then (at best) try to change it with Substitutes.

Holt plays the target man/bully, Jason the predator and Boyle the speed merchant running in behind him.
Stick Shinnie and Commons behind and play through Holt - options to play in Cummings or Boyle or back to Shinnie and Commons coming late into the box.

I'd be surprised if any of the opposition teams outside of Dundee Utd have the players and the coaching nous to defend that and it surely beats trying to play a crossing game with width using two guys who, much as I like them, don't cross all that well.

[Carheenlea]

I like Grant Holt, but I was no good myself so didn't play any football of note, so not really sure how valid my view is with the op.
This condescending "not understanding the game" stuff really has no place on a football fans forum.

[blackpoolhibs]

You might want to look at his strike partner to answer your questions G, Holt was constantly shouting at Cummings, pointing to spaces on the pitch where he wanted him to be. I feel because we've not got any wide players, he slips into the space that's available to try and create something, Play 3 up top and let Holt play through the middle with Keats/JC and Boyle either side going wide.

I watch the same game as you JC, and he can point wherever he likes, he is NOT a wide man, his job is to ruffle up the centre halves and create the space around him IN THE BOX, not everywhere else APART from in the box.

His legs have gone, and he's conning you if you think he works hard. He's frightened to get involved with the central defenders, because he's not strong enough now to hold them off where it matters.

Defenders will sit off him the further away from goal he is, he falls over at the slightest touch and tries to con the ref all the time, its embarrassing.

If he concentrated on doing what he was brought in to do, rather than telling every other player, perhaps we'd get more space where it matters, but that is never going to happen if he's playing left wing.

And this is something the Wigan management were at him constantly to stop, but when your legs have gone, you take the easy option, and we are seeing that.

[Gmack7]

Paul Hanlon is employed to do a specific job, defend, but he's also chipped in with 2 goals, 1 less than Holt, with the possession we have he must do better,as should everyone else including lennon

[B.H.F.C]

You might want to look at his strike partner to answer your questions G, Holt was constantly shouting at Cummings, pointing to spaces on the pitch where he wanted him to be. I feel because we've not got any wide players, he slips into the space that's available to try and create something, Play 3 up top and let Holt play through the middle with Keats/JC and Boyle either side going wide.

Two wrongs don't make a right though. And Holt slipping in to these wide positions then takes away our presence where it is most needed. Given the positions he takes up I don't think the Raith centre halves would have walked of on Saturday thinking he was hard to play against, even if he did play reasonably well. I think they'd be more than happy to see our number 9 away looking for the ball elsewhere.

I didn't expect him to come in and score every week. I thought he'd have more than two goals from open play halfway through the season though. I think he been fine. But I think that's our problem, nobody attacking wise has really been better than fine.

[Brightside]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.

Spot on..and they have started on Commons now also! Beyond belief.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Spot on..and they have started on Commons now also! Beyond belief.

Who would you class as "they" ? Is the point of a fans forum not us?

[blackpoolhibs]

Spot on..and they have started on Commons now also! Beyond belief.

No they are not, they are commenting on how unfit he is, something that was inevitable after the length of time he's not played a competitive match.

Every person who's spoken about Commons would love the Commons who played regularly for celtic, well done for twisting what folk are saying about him. :rolleyes:

[J-C]

I watch the same game as you JC, and he can point wherever he likes, he is NOT a wide man, his job is to ruffle up the centre halves and create the space around him IN THE BOX, not everywhere else APART from in the box.

His legs have gone, and he's conning you if you think he works hard. He's frightened to get involved with the central defenders, because he's not strong enough now to hold them off where it matters.

Defenders will sit off him the further away from goal he is, he falls over at the slightest touch and tries to con the ref all the time, its embarrassing.

If he concentrated on doing what he was brought in to do, rather than telling every other player, perhaps we'd get more space where it matters, but that is never going to happen if he's playing left wing.

And this is something the Wigan management were at him constantly to stop, but when your legs have gone, you take the easy option, and we are seeing that.

I must admit G, I haven't watched Holt closely enough to see what you are, I just assumed he was finding space and not hiding.

[Brightside]

No they are not, they are commenting on how unfit he is, something that was inevitable after the length of time he's not played a competitive match.

Every person who's spoken about Commons would love the Commons who played regularly for celtic, well done for twisting what folk are saying about him. :rolleyes:

Jeez is must still be under the effects of the Xmas indulgence...i just read a thread that had at least 6 posters slating him and hoping we don't keep him. Both are class players that need to be properly utilised. Holt and Commons were both excellent in the first half but the whole team went down hill in the 2nd.

[Just Jimmy]

it's unbearable at times to read some of the posts on here.
Let me make something very clear. Grant Holt is a very very good player. He has played at a level that most of our players can only aspire to. I don't post a lot on here because it's obvious that the majority of posters on here have never played at any level of football so it's pointless getting involved in some of the s@@@ that is said. I despair at some of the stuff that has been said about Holt and the same posters will laud praise on the likes of Stevenson and Boyle.
This is the problem with the Hibs support. We accept mediocrity but when we sign a player that can and actually has done something in the game we expect that he can perform miracles. Grant Holt will do what he is good at very very well. It's up to Lennon to play players and a system that suits that style of play. Lennon signed him he should be getting the best out of him.
Right then Sir Alex...

Let's have your C.V in the game up for public scrutiny? Then I'll decide if I deem you worthy of discussion.


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[J-C]

Jeez is must still be under the effects of the Xmas indulgence...i just read a thread that had at least 6 posters slating him and hoping we don't keep him. Both are class players that need to be properly utilised. Holt and Commons were both excellent in the first half but the whole team went down hill in the 2nd.


I think the majority are saying he's not fit and how long before he is and if that is the case is it worth keeping him when we need someone in to hit the ground running.

[Ozyhibby]

I think Commons will be a good signing but think Holt is done. Is that allowed?


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[wookie70]

He never has and never will be a 20 goal a season type centre forward. He's big and awkward and there to ruffle a few feathers and try and bring others into the game. It's not pretty to watch at times but he does a job and Cummings for example has commented on how much he enjoys playing with him and how much he's learned from him. That's a big part of his signing, to help bring on the others who are a bit younger and less experienced. He moaned a few times at Cummings at the weekend for being too far away from him at goal kicks. He's playing as well as trying to coach, for like of a better word, during games. Like I say, not pretty to watch at times, but he's contributing a lot more than meets the eye. If you're going to judge him on goals alone or assists, that's extremely unfair on Holt. His game is the part about two or three stages before goals are scored. Occasionally, he'll get on the end of things as a Brucey bonus.

He played 4 seasons for Norwich and scored 78 goals. The is as close as makes no difference 20 goals a season. The problem isn't that he was a 20 goal a year man is that he is struggling to be an 8-10 goals with nowhere near enough assists.

I'm hoping he is a streaky striker and goes on a run but he looks scared to shoot at the moment

[Silver Fox]

I think we play better when Holt is in the team, stats should prove that, points won with him playing v not playing, opposition managers have commented on his talent.

As the op says it's not just about the goals scored but what he contributes to the team, the ball sticks up front longer when he's there for example.

[Brightside]

I think Commons will be a good signing but think Holt is done. Is that allowed?


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No. :thumbsup:

[sleeping giant]

I really thought Holt would be a great signing.
I am disappointed to say the least.

He won't move to another club after Hibs.

[JimBHibees]

I really thought Holt would be a great signing.
I am disappointed to say the least.

He won't move to another club after Hibs.

I thought he would do well also. Has been up and down however has had some good games. Can still do well this season would be good to get a couple of goals to boost his confidence.

[GreenCastle]

I like Holt.

His link up play and experience is valuable.

The catch 22 is that he's a striker and we need to be scoring more to win games. Plus I think the best way to beat most teams in this league is speed, width and runs in behind.

Against Utd I thought Holt was good - many disagree but first half and Saturday 1st half he was decent.

He would have scored that pen at Tannidice also I feel. (But that's another discussion).

What he doesn't do is run in behind - so without wingers and if Commons / Shinnie / Cummings don't do this (3rd man runs)...we end up playing in front of teams and that's really easy to defend against. (Teams can park the bus against us)!

[keep the faith]

I like Holt.

His link up play and experience is valuable.

The catch 22 is that he's a striker and we need to be scoring more to win games. Plus I think the best way to beat most teams in this league is speed, width and runs in behind.

Against Utd I thought Holt was good - many disagree but first half and Saturday 1st half he was decent.

He would have scored that pen at Tannidice also I feel. (But that's another discussion).

What he doesn't do is run in behind - so without wingers and if Commons / Shinnie / Cummings don't do this (3rd man runs)...we end up playing in front of teams and that's really easy to defend against. (Teams can park the bus against us)!

Exactly. Great reasoned post.

You do know you though that you are just supposed to get really angry and say holt is finished, waste of a jersey, falls over a lot etc....?

[Lago]

I think the majority are saying he's not fit and how long before he is and if that is the case is it worth keeping him when we need someone in to hit the ground running.
And exactly the same criticism was made of Anthony Stokes when he came to us, but having just finished watching the cup final DVD, hibs & hibs fans are due Stokes a big big thank you for what he achieved for us in the short time he was here & I am hopeful Commons will do the same.

[GreenCastle]

Exactly. Great reasoned post.

You do know you though that you are just supposed to get really angry and say holt is finished, waste of a jersey, falls over a lot etc....?

Thanks!

The good posts on here see the bigger picture..those with no brains say..

He's crap - useless - over weight etc - simple things which simply aren't true.

When really he's achieved more than nearly every poster slating him and is definitely good enough to be in our squad - either starting or not is the discussion.

[Colr]

Thanks!

The good posts on here see the bigger picture..those with no brains say..

He's crap - useless - over weight etc - simple things which simply aren't true.

When really he's achieved more than nearly every poster slating him and is definitely good enough to be in our squad - either starting or not is the discussion.

There seems to be a blame orientated culture amongst Hibs fans......and as soon as we find out who's responsible we'll root the ******* out!

[BSEJVT]

He scores the number of goals because players like Holt give him the space to do so but Cummings unfortunately need 2-3 times the amount of chances to score, if he halfed that he'd score 30+ a season. We as a team need to be more ruthless in front of goals, we miss far too many chances to skoosh this league, there was enough chances created on saturday to win 4-0.

Sorry but I don't agree

Who was fulfilling that role in the past 2 seasons?

Jason hasn't had a regular partner in his time at Hibs and certainly not one who fashioned out chances for him regularly

I don't disagree that we miss far too many chances but to put the blame for it all solely on Jason is just lazy thinking

As I said earlier a non scoring striker was the very last thing we needed given the absence of gaols from anywhere else in the team / squad and that is what we have in Holt

[GreenCastle]

Sorry but I don't agree

Who was fulfilling that role in the past 2 seasons?

Jason hasn't had a regular partner in his time at Hibs and certainly not one who fashioned out chances for him regularly

I don't disagree that we miss far too many chances but to put the blame for it all solely on Jason is just lazy thinking

As I said earlier a non scoring striker was the very last thing we needed given the absence of gaols from anywhere else in the team / squad and that is what we have in Holt

If JC scored every chance he would be at Real Madrid or away from Hibs.

Cummings and Malonga were a good pairing until Dominic left.

Malonga could hold the ball up - drop in - link up play and also run in behind.

I don't feel we have a Malonga in our team right now sadly.

[RIP Bestie]

Was that job to play wide or deep, and fall over at the slightest touch trying to con the ref, or was it to play centre forward and hold the ball up in dangerous areas, bully defenders, maybe chip in with a few goals and create goals and space for others?

If its the later then he's done and doing very little of that at all, if its to play left back or left wing, then he's doing a cracking job, and the space he's created for Lewis Stevenson has been terrific.

I'm not getting it either, what was this specific job he was brought in to do?

you do get it though, you answered it in your first paragraph. I think that the problems have been highlighted by other posts on this thread.

[Ozyhibby]

If Holt is doing such a great job with the link up play, how are we not scoring more goals than last season? Fact is he's not and he's not scoring either.
2 goals from open play in half a season? If he hadn't been an EPL striker a few years ago he would not have been given the time he has. Living on past glories.


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[GreenCastle]

If Holt is doing such a great job with the link up play, how are we not scoring more goals than last season? Fact is he's not and he's not scoring either.
2 goals from open play in half a season? If he hadn't been an EPL striker a few years ago he would not have been given the time he has. Living on past glories.


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We have only scored 2 less.

Holt and Boyle have also missed penalties this season.

He was an EPL striker - something none of our players can say and has the experience and game understanding to help others / the team.

The catch 22 I said above is - at what cost as we need goals but we also need people to set them up.

When Holt was signed - he wasn't signed to score 22 goals - he was signed as we needed a plan B and a player who wouldn't get bullied if we went long.

Our lack of goals from midfield is more of a concern for me.

[Brightside]

If Holt is doing such a great job with the link up play, how are we not scoring more goals than last season? Fact is he's not and he's not scoring either.
2 goals from open play in half a season? If he hadn't been an EPL striker a few years ago he would not have been given the time he has. Living on past glories.


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We missed 5 or 6 gilt edged chances in the first half alone. Hold can't be blamed for players fluffing chances like that. Boyle missed a 1:1 a few weeks back and some people on here wanted him dropped. Jason does it and hardly anyone mentions it. Jason also got the shout to leave one that was coming right to Holt...he got in the way and we missed a 6 yarder.

[hibby6270]

Right.
Here is the thread ender. Usually my posts stop a thread dead in it's tracks.:agree:

Lennon obviously believes a target man is required in his team. Of the 2 we have, Holt is by far the more effective. OK - he doesn't score as many goals as he could but his hold up play is good and for a big man his ball playing skills are decent.

What we lack is commitment from the midfield to support the strikers in the box. We appear to be too defensively minded. There are games where this is required but in this league it should never be our start point.

We should always have a front 3 or 4. The 3 would Cummings, Holt & Boyle. Keatings makes up the 4 playing just off them. His long range shooting should be more prominent. A centre mid of any 2 from these 3 - Commons, Shinnie, McGeuogh, should all be creating chances, having shots at goal more than they do. Currently they all have a tendency to want to take "one more touch" and by then the chance is lost or more difficult to create again. BTW - the forwards are also guilty of the "one more touch" problem as well and that may be what is stopping the good chance created becoming a goal. It allows the defence to set itself and attack/block the attempt at goal more easily.

Of course, all of this opinion is based on the players we have available just now. We know McGinn & Fyvie would be in the team at the expense of 2 of the players named above. But until that luxury is an option again (at least 3 weeks away?), then we need to re-adapt and be even more positive than we are at the moment.

P.S. - this opinion all based on never having played the game at any level but having watched Hibs for over 50 years and always wishing or hoping we will roll over teams easily. Doesn't make me an expert but I'd much rather see us play positive attacking gung-Ho football than trying to create the perfect goal every time by attempting to walk it in the net. Sometimes that will happen. Not often but scrappy goals, deflections, OGs, whatever is what is needed right now.

[J-C]

Right.
Here is the thread ender. Usually my posts stop a thread dead in it's tracks.:agree:

Lennon obviously believes a target man is required in his team. Of the 2 we have, Holt is by far the more effective. OK - he doesn't score as many goals as he could but his hold up play is good and for a big man his ball playing skills are decent.

What we lack is commitment from the midfield to support the strikers in the box. We appear to be too defensively minded. There are games where this is required but in this league it should never be our start point.

We should always have a front 3 or 4. The 3 would Cummings, Holt & Boyle. Keatings makes up the 4 playing just off them. His long range shooting should be more prominent. A centre mid of any 2 from these 3 - Commons, Shinnie, McGeuogh, should all be creating chances, having shots at goal more than they do. Currently they all have a tendency to want to take "one more touch" and by then the chance is lost or more difficult to create again. BTW - the forwards are also guilty of the "one more touch" problem as well and that may be what is stopping the good chance created becoming a goal. It allows the defence to set itself and attack/block the attempt at goal more easily.


Of course, all of this opinion is based on the players we have available just now. We know McGinn & Fyvie would be in the team at the expense of 2 of the players named above. But until that luxury is an option again (at least 3 weeks away?), then we need to re-adapt and be even more positive than we are at the moment.

P.S. - this opinion all based on never having played the game at any level but having watched Hibs for over 50 years and always wishing or hoping we will roll over teams easily. Doesn't make me an expert but I'd much rather see us play positive attacking gung-Ho football than trying to create the perfect goal every time by attempting to walk it in the net. Sometimes that will happen. Not often but scrappy goals, deflections, OGs, whatever is what is needed right now.

Cracking post.

[Ozyhibby]

We missed 5 or 6 gilt edged chances in the first half alone. Hold can't be blamed for players fluffing chances like that. Boyle missed a 1:1 a few weeks back and some people on here wanted him dropped. Jason does it and hardly anyone mentions it. Jason also got the shout to leave one that was coming right to Holt...he got in the way and we missed a 6 yarder.

These guys would have been missing chances last season as well. We needed someone in the summer who would increase the amount of goals we scored, not just someone different in the build up.
I'm almost certain Lennon agrees which is why he keeps dropping him and I'm sure we will be bringing in another striker in the window which would not have been needed if Holt was doing the job he was brought here for.


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[Danderhall Hibs]

These guys would have been missing chances last season as well. We needed someone in the summer who would increase the amount of goals we scored, not just someone different in the build up.
I'm almost certain Lennon agrees which is why he keeps dropping him and I'm sure we will be bringing in another striker in the window which would not have been needed if Holt was doing the job he was brought here for.


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If the midfield could chip in every now and again we could cope with Cummings needing 4 chances for every goal and for our second striker toonly be scoring a few goals.

Our defenders probably score more often than our midfield- it's piss poor.

[GreenCastle]

If the midfield could chip in every now and again we could cope with Cummings needing 4 chances for every goal and for our second striker toonly be scoring a few goals.

Our defenders probably score more often than our midfield- it's piss poor.

The last sentence is true and worrying.

[anon1875]

Watched Holt against Morton and thought he looked good, held the ball in well and rarely gave it away. He wasn't brought in to score 20 goals a season, he was brought in to hold the ball up.

[JimBHibees]

I watch the same game as you JC, and he can point wherever he likes, he is NOT a wide man, his job is to ruffle up the centre halves and create the space around him IN THE BOX, not everywhere else APART from in the box.

His legs have gone, and he's conning you if you think he works hard. He's frightened to get involved with the central defenders, because he's not strong enough now to hold them off where it matters.

Defenders will sit off him the further away from goal he is, he falls over at the slightest touch and tries to con the ref all the time, its embarrassing.

If he concentrated on doing what he was brought in to do, rather than telling every other player, perhaps we'd get more space where it matters, but that is never going to happen if he's playing left wing.

And this is something the Wigan management were at him constantly to stop, but when your legs have gone, you take the easy option, and we are seeing that.

Surely if his legs have gone the easiest thing to do would be to stay in the middle rather than pull out wide. Think he creates spaces with his runs and that some of the play on Saturday was very good in attacking areas. Finishing the chances was the problem.

[blackpoolhibs]

Surely if his legs have gone the easiest thing to do would be to stay in the middle rather than pull out wide. Think he creates spaces with his runs and that some of the play on Saturday was very good in attacking areas. Finishing the chances was the problem.

No, playing where you are under no pressure is easier, something he does rather than playing up against the central defenders where there is less space, and where he should be most of the game.

I thought he was brought in to create space for the others, not Stevenson or Gray?

Standards are so low now, that Holt not scoring, not creating much but having the odd decent touch miles from goal is classed as having a good game. :rolleyes:

[ancient hibee]

When the ball is in the air on its way to Holt I look in vain for three or four players bursting a gut to get beyond him when he invariably flicks it on.

[Smartie]

No, playing where you are under no pressure is easier, something he does rather than playing up against the central defenders where there is less space, and where he should be most of the game.

I thought he was brought in to create space for the others, not Stevenson or Gray?

Standards are so low now, that Holt not scoring, not creating much but having the odd decent touch miles from goal is classed as having a good game. :rolleyes:

His best work on Saturday was done in very crowded areas, either holding the ball up under pressure, linking play with little passes or winning flick-ons. He had a few cracking turns in the second half when he held off his defender.

I can't see where you get this "hiding on the wing" stuff from, he doesn't do it in the games I watch. Yes, he drops deep but he does it to get involved and create - players should be looking to find space not stand on the centre-halves.

I can understand the criticism of his composure in front of goal, which seems to have deserted him and I accept that he isn't a big enough goal threat at the moment.

But I find your criticism of Holt wide of the mark.

I'm another one who watches him play and urges midfielders to burst beyond him and wonder what he could do if he had wingers up there with him.

I think Holt and Boyle have looked our most promising front two this season but in truth I'e not been convinced by any pairing and I've not been truly convinced by a Hibs front line for about 10 years. It's been our achilles heel for as long as I can remember but Grant Holt is better than a number of the strikers we've had over that time.

[Greenwich_Hibby]

We need a Mixu - Holt was a good player, now time has caught up with him. The manager needs to stop buying players on past reputation and look to what they currently do, otherwise we'll end up with a team of dinosaurs - might match the manager's tactics!:rolleyes: