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Juice-Terry
07-12-2016, 11:21 AM
Having waited patiently on the bench for several weeks now and with Boyle's dismal performance at Tannadice, will Jason start on Saturday? Ought he? Thoughts?

danhibees1875
07-12-2016, 11:26 AM
I hope so.

Big_Franck
07-12-2016, 11:27 AM
Having waited patiently on the bench for several weeks now and with Boyle's dismal performance at Tannadice, will Jason start on Saturday? Ought he? Thoughts?

He should. As much as I like Boyle he was brutal on Friday and Cummings now deserves a chance to reclaim a starting place. Not that our top scorer by a mile should have been out of the team in the first place IMO.

Billy Whizz
07-12-2016, 11:32 AM
He should. As much as I like Boyle he was brutal on Friday and Cummings now deserves a chance to reclaim a starting place. Not that our top scorer by a mile should have been out of the team in the first place IMO.

Cummings, Boyle and Graham should all start on Saturday, let's ditch this 3 at the back, and a holding midfielder against Dumbarton at home

NadeAteMyLunch!
07-12-2016, 11:36 AM
Absolute no brainer. Ridiculous if he's still sitting on the bench

Unseen work
07-12-2016, 12:19 PM
This is the ridiculous thing

Boyle has been fantastic the past 5/6 games, scoring 4 goals. Now one bad performance they want him dropped for Cummings?

I have been desperate for Cummings to start again too.

But, imo Holt should her dropped before anyone

HappyHanlon
07-12-2016, 12:20 PM
For me its horses for courses.

Jase should have started against Dundee Utd.

I like Boyle and he'll run through walls for you but he has limited ability. For me, he's better suited to games against Morton, St Mirren, Dumbarton.

Because he had a poor game against Dundee Utd, Boyle will return to bench and Jase will come in.

I'd even chuck Graham in for Holt.

It's Dumbarton and they are minging. We should be routing them good and proper!

Big90inOz
07-12-2016, 12:22 PM
Boyle needs to start, it's his first bad game although he still gave 100% and caused them problems.

Enough said
07-12-2016, 12:28 PM
As I have stated on here before regarding Jc weight problem and not turning up to a charity golf event hosted by the club for charity. Lennon has rightly punished him for this. Boyle should still start though offers far more

matty_f
07-12-2016, 12:29 PM
I think Cummings should come back in now. I think Cummings would have been back in the side had it not been for the fact that Keatings, then Boyle, took their chance when giving the opportunity.

Cummings had to see that there was genuine competition for places, I think he was complacent about his place in the team and that he didn't need to work as hard as everyone else as a result.

Being dropped, then seeing that it's not just a token gesture but part of being in a squad. Boyle and Keatings both made it impossible for Lennon to drop them, but I think that Boyle's last two performances haven't been that good (maybe harsh for the game before last, he got a goal but missed some really clear chances). For Lennon to retain credibility with Cummings, he needs to put him back in now and show that if you're not playing well, someone else gets their chance.

TonyStokeprano
07-12-2016, 12:41 PM
As I have stated on here before regarding Jc weight problem and not turning up to a charity golf event hosted by the club for charity. Lennon has rightly punished him for this. Boyle should still start though offers far more

He's paid to put the ball into the net no the ****ing hole

Thecat23
07-12-2016, 12:45 PM
He's paid to put the ball into the net no the ****ing hole

Footballers are paid not just for playing football but also representing their clubs on and off the field with charity outings and other events. You may not care yourself but when a player fails to carry out these duties it can leave a sour taste for folk who maybe wanted a pic or autograph as well as pissing off whoever organised it.

Dub
07-12-2016, 12:58 PM
He's paid to put the ball into the net no the ****ing hole

Indeed. He is the best striker at the club and people think it's ok that we is sitting on the bench? Seems ridiculous to me but then I dont play Football Manager.

JimBHibees
07-12-2016, 12:58 PM
I think Cummings should come back in now. I think Cummings would have been back in the side had it not been for the fact that Keatings, then Boyle, took their chance when giving the opportunity.

Cummings had to see that there was genuine competition for places, I think he was complacent about his place in the team and that he didn't need to work as hard as everyone else as a result.

Being dropped, then seeing that it's not just a token gesture but part of being in a squad. Boyle and Keatings both made it impossible for Lennon to drop them, but I think that Boyle's last two performances haven't been that good (maybe harsh for the game before last, he got a goal but missed some really clear chances). For Lennon to retain credibility with Cummings, he needs to put him back in now and show that if you're not playing well, someone else gets their chance.

Yep think this is the time for Jason to come back in and maybe take some of the pressure off Boyle. Would actually play Boyle wide right in this game also.

ahibby
07-12-2016, 01:00 PM
Not for me. One poor game shouldn't see Boyle punished. However if he continues the first half in the same vein then I'd start thinking about JC for the second half and that's saying something because I'm not 100% convinced with JC, too many times for me he seems to shoot straight at goalies. His corker against Rangers tight in against the post was the exception but there's not enough of those. I think we need another scorer in, a natural forward, rather than a converted winger until JC matures a bit more.

MWHIBBIES
07-12-2016, 01:02 PM
Why do people think 3 centre backs and a holding player is some kind of massive horrible defensive formation? Chelsea have won 8 games in a row scoring 22 goals with it. Absolutely fine to keep playing 3-5-2, it doesn't matter if we are playing Dumbarton at home.

ahibby
07-12-2016, 01:06 PM
Why do people think 3 centre backs and a holding player is some kind of massive horrible defensive formation? Chelsea have won 8 games in a row scoring 22 goals with it. Absolutely fine to keep playing 3-5-2, it doesn't matter if we are playing Dumbarton at home.

I get this completely. I think what some are getting at is that the holding midfielder takes up a place that could otherwise be given to a creative or attacking midfielder. We don't score as many when Bartley is on.

Smartie
07-12-2016, 01:09 PM
We've got Dumbarton (who lost to Bonnyrigg Rose last night) at Easter Road.

There's room for Boyle (our most potent threat over the past month or so) our top goalscorer and at least one of Graham or Holt in this game.

It will be utter madness if we don't go pretty gung-ho in this game.

I was actually one of those who advocated dropping Cummings, and I think it has been a good thing to do.

The time is right to bring him back in though.

TonyStokeprano
07-12-2016, 01:40 PM
Footballers are paid not just for playing football but also representing their clubs on and off the field with charity outings and other events. You may not care yourself but when a player fails to carry out these duties it can leave a sour taste for folk who maybe wanted a pic or autograph as well as pissing off whoever organised it.

I'm sure there was quite a lot of players that werent at the golf day ? And on the weight subject how the hell does holt get a game if Jason's overweight holt is obese ! So our managers allowed to sit in France whilst the players are meant to be preparing for a new season but you get dropped for two months for missing a golf day. Decent

jacomo
07-12-2016, 01:40 PM
Why do people think 3 centre backs and a holding player is some kind of massive horrible defensive formation? Chelsea have won 8 games in a row scoring 22 goals with it. Absolutely fine to keep playing 3-5-2, it doesn't matter if we are playing Dumbarton at home.

Chelsea also play very attack-minded wingbacks and 2 inside forwards, more like a 3-4-3.

They were also defensively frail, have better quality players and play in a different league.

You are right to say that this formation is not inherently more defensive than a 4-4-2, but it's not a great comparison.

NadeAteMyLunch!
07-12-2016, 01:47 PM
Why do people think 3 centre backs and a holding player is some kind of massive horrible defensive formation? Chelsea have won 8 games in a row scoring 22 goals with it. Absolutely fine to keep playing 3-5-2, it doesn't matter if we are playing Dumbarton at home.

It's not necessarily the formation but more the players you use. We have Gray and Stevenson genuinely struggling to beat the first man with their crosses and not really offering much of an attacking force. Chelsea have Victor Moses rampaging down the flank pinging in crosses, shots and linking defence go attack. He's a huge threat every time he gets on the ball. We could at least try Boyle in one of the wing back positions at home against the likes of Dumbarton if we're going to persist with the formation.

hibsforeurope
07-12-2016, 02:17 PM
Can Cummings' non-involvement last night with the Development squad be a sign that he is due to play more of a role at the weekend? I hope so!

I believe if he had started against Utd last week that we would have won he would have scored at least 1 of the 2 open play sitters Boyle missed in the first half and he would have scored the pen.

For me it should be Cummings to start up front with either Holt or Graham on Saturday.

MWHIBBIES
07-12-2016, 02:22 PM
Chelsea also play very attack-minded wingbacks and 2 inside forwards, more like a 3-4-3.

They were also defensively frail, have better quality players and play in a different league.

You are right to say that this formation is not inherently more defensive than a 4-4-2, but it's not a great comparison.Chelsea lost 2 goals in those 8 games, I wish we were that defensively frail.

The formation is very good, our execution of it isn't perfect but it is still our best team IMO.

SteveHFC
07-12-2016, 02:32 PM
Cummings upfront with Graham for me on Saturday. Holt has to be dropped.

southsider
07-12-2016, 02:41 PM
Play 5 up. 2 wingers & 3 forwards. 3-2-5. Rack up a cricket score & get confidence up again.

Unseen work
07-12-2016, 02:50 PM
I am delighted some people on here aren't out manager.

For me we should go with

....................Marciano.....
....mcgregor....Hanlon....Fontaine..
Boyle.....Bartley......mcgeouch......Crane
......................Shinnie.........
..............Cummings....Graham....

Enough said
07-12-2016, 03:30 PM
I am delighted some people on here aren't out manager.

For me we should go with

....................Marciano.....
....mcgregor....Hanlon....Fontaine..
Boyle.....Bartley......mcgeouch......Crane
......................Shinnie.........
..............Cummings....Graham....

Am delighted you aren't our manager with that side

Golden Bear
07-12-2016, 03:40 PM
I am delighted some people on here aren't out manager.

For me we should go with

....................Marciano.....
....mcgregor....Hanlon....Fontaine..
Boyle.....Bartley......mcgeouch......Crane
......................Shinnie.........
..............Cummings....Graham....

That looks a reasonable team to me although I have concerns about Mcgeoch's fitness. I'd be tempted to give young Murray his chance to impress.

CupidStunt1875
07-12-2016, 03:46 PM
Am delighted you aren't our manager with that side

He /She left themself wide open for that :wink: As long as Cummings is back any team Lennon puts out should be capable of beating Dumbarton.

Craig_HFC
07-12-2016, 03:50 PM
I would start Scott Martin in place of the Bartman.

jacomo
07-12-2016, 03:51 PM
Chelsea lost 2 goals in those 8 games, I wish we were that defensively frail.

The formation is very good, our execution of it isn't perfect but it is still our best team IMO.

Sorry, I meant that they were frail with a back 4, which is the main reason they switched.

GreenLake
07-12-2016, 04:02 PM
I hope Cummings gets a chance and returns to his goal scoring habits but Boyle did well for a few games and they could both keep scoring if Lennon uses 60 minutes as sub time. Cummings might be better as a starter.

Holt has an impact off and on the ball and I think we will be losing more games without him. He needs to take some Yoga lessons or something to relax him with Scottish refereeing. :greengrin

Arch Stanton
07-12-2016, 04:33 PM
Cummings will score goals if we have a midfield that gives him bucketloads of chances - it's a pity our midfield is depleted just now. Personally I think Boyle can make more things happen with a good through ball.

JC has hardly been a super-sub the past few games but if he has been showing up well in training then I could see him starting - my feeling is that it will be Boyle and Graham though.

May2116
07-12-2016, 05:04 PM
Cummings will score goals if we have a midfield that gives him bucketloads of chances - it's a pity our midfield is depleted just now. Personally I think Boyle can make more things happen with a good through ball.

JC has hardly been a super-sub the past few games but if he has been showing up well in training then I could see him starting - my feeling is that it will be Boyle and Graham though.

He's hardly had a chance to be a 'super sub'.. last Friday was the longest he has got and in that time managed to make himself two chances and got zilch other service.

TonyStokeprano
07-12-2016, 05:06 PM
He's hardly had a chance to be a 'super sub'.. last Friday was the longest he has got and in that time managed to make himself two chances and got zilch other service.

Spot on mate, lucky if he's played an hour out the last 8 games lol

Nakedmanoncrack
07-12-2016, 05:09 PM
Time to stop messing about and play the best players - Cummings is clearly one of them.

May2116
07-12-2016, 05:12 PM
Time to stop messing about and play the best players - Cummings is clearly one of them.

Amen!!

Cat Stanton
07-12-2016, 06:24 PM
Amen!!

Team needs some pace and some up-and-at-them-ness (I'm sure that's a word; if not, it should be). Keatings was giving them that but got injured - and Boyle had been a decent replacement until last week. Cummings doesn't give you that, so unclear if he will get back in straight away while the need for pace is still apparent to Lennon.

May2116
07-12-2016, 06:31 PM
Team needs some pace and some up-and-at-them-ness (I'm sure that's a word; if not, it should be). Keatings was giving them that but got injured - and Boyle had been a decent replacement until last week. Cummings doesn't give you that, so unclear if he will get back in straight away while the need for pace is still apparent to Lennon.

No, against Dumbarton, who have just been beat by ****ing Bonnyrigg rose, we should have our quickest, most skilful XI out, defenders hate strikers who move, especially big bullying centre halves... Cummings' movement in and around the 18 yard box is immense, he doesn't have to chase down every lost cause against Dumbarton, he needs to stick the ball in the back of the net.

Arch Stanton
07-12-2016, 06:34 PM
He's hardly had a chance to be a 'super sub'.. last Friday was the longest he has got and in that time managed to make himself two chances and got zilch other service.

20+ mins in each of the last 3 games - plenty of time for a hot-shot to make his mark IMO. (I assume he realises he needs to prove himself to get his place back).

And your right about the service - if the goals aren't laid on he doesn't score them. And yes, he does get the odd snap-shot from 20 plus yards but it's never usually successful.

As has been said before he isn't the finished article.

Callum7
07-12-2016, 06:36 PM
https://instagram.com/p/BNueLSxhZEw/

NORTHERNHIBBY
07-12-2016, 06:43 PM
I suppose that it is not that professional that Lennon dropped Cummings because he doesn't like him and for no other reason.

ruthven_raiders
07-12-2016, 07:13 PM
Cummings, Boyle and Graham should all start on Saturday, let's ditch this 3 at the back, and a holding midfielder against Dumbarton at home

Exactly this, playing three central defenders and a holding midfield player with two backs that can't cross is ridiculous, please play 433......

HappyHanlon
07-12-2016, 07:27 PM
Unless we've been training to play the 4-3-3 we'll just be playing the normal formation.

Franck Stanton
07-12-2016, 07:28 PM
I am delighted some people on here aren't out manager.

For me we should go with

....................Marciano.....
....mcgregor....Hanlon....Fontaine..
Boyle.....Bartley......mcgeouch......Crane
......................Shinnie.........
..............Cummings....Graham....


Good starting 11, however....& it is only my opinion would be better with Martin than with Barltey as he is more "industrious" and attack-minded.

cmcd
07-12-2016, 08:15 PM
Time to stop messing about and play the best players - Cummings is clearly one of them.
He's may be be best goal scorer but certainly not best player

May2116
07-12-2016, 08:20 PM
20+ mins in each of the last 3 games - plenty of time for a hot-shot to make his mark IMO. (I assume he realises he needs to prove himself to get his place back).

And your right about the service - if the goals aren't laid on he doesn't score them. And yes, he does get the odd snap-shot from 20 plus yards but it's never usually successful.

As has been said before he isn't the finished article.

When you haven't played in many weeks, you expect someone to come on after sitting on a bench for an hour+ to come on and make an impact? I mean I seen nothing but plenty of effort from him on Friday. No one said he was the finished article lol, what he is, however, is the best striker at our club.

'If the goals aren't laid on he doesn't score them' - bollocks, he does however need the ball to score. His movement in the box is unreal, good strikers find and make room, something Jason does. His last goal? An extremely good finish against Ayr made all for himself, so don't go spouting rubbish about him.

Smartie
07-12-2016, 08:38 PM
I thought Jason gave a pretty good account of himself on Friday night, given he was given very minimal service.

He cannot be judged on his cameos over the past couple of months - totally unfair.

Prior to that he wasn't playing great and he was missing a good few chances - too many chances.

I'm really looking forward to him coming back into the fold with a point to prove, and I continue to believe that Lennon might just have played a masterstroke here.

SRHibs
07-12-2016, 08:47 PM
By not playing him we are depriving ourselves of 2 things:

1. A great player who WILL score a lot of goals.
2. A sellable asset. If he continues to play and score his value will rise, however after spending a decent wedge of time on the bench you have to imagine his value has already plummeted and will continue to do so.

where'stheslope
07-12-2016, 08:57 PM
In the Friday night game when Jason came on I thought he had listened to Lennon and was tracking back covering in mid field when United were in possession, unfortunately he did it twice then stayed up the park (lazy?).
In this team he can score goals but who will supply the chances for him?
Keatings is his main helper when he's fit as he creates space and takes defenders away out of position.
At the moment none of our other forwards seem to be able to do this so it makes it harder for mid fielders to burst forward and score, typically on Friday night when we created very little up front.

May2116
07-12-2016, 09:01 PM
By not playing him we are depriving ourselves of 2 things:

1. A great player who WILL score a lot of goals.
2. A sellable asset. If he continues to play and score his value will rise, however after spending a decent wedge of time on the bench you have to imagine his value has already plummeted and will continue to do so.

Exactly. Must be the only club in Scotland who get a cracking young player worth a couple of million, and rising, and slag him off telling everyone how ***** he is. Embarrassing it really is.

If all he can do is score goals then **** me, accept it and be grateful for it, when was the last natural goalscorer??

SRHibs
07-12-2016, 09:17 PM
It's also no coincidence that Cummings 'lost it' a little bit after Lennon publicly slated him for his work-rate and the number of chances he'd missed. Fair enough, he wasn't putting away every shot, but he was scoring a lot. He's a young, audacious, confidence player, and that sort of thing is one way to sap the confidence from him. Was a really absurd decision by Lennon, especially considering out of all the bad performers on our team, Cummings was absolutely nowhere near the worst offender.

In hindsight I would've taken the money from Peterborough, and I bet Lennon would've too. Not because I don't think Cummings is a great player, but because it's looking more and more likely that he's wasted on Hibs.

cmcd
07-12-2016, 09:20 PM
It's also no coincidence that Cummings 'lost it' a little bit after Lennon publicly slated him for his work-rate and the number of chances he'd missed. Fair enough, he wasn't putting away every shot, but he was scoring a lot. He's a young, audacious, confidence player, and that sort of thing is one way to sap the confidence from him. Was a really absurd decision by Lennon, especially considering out of all the bad performers on our team, Cummings was absolutely nowhere near the worst offender.

In hindsight I would've taken the money from Peterborough, and I bet Lennon would've too. Not because I don't think Cummings is a great player, but because it's looking more and more likely that he's wasted on Hibs.
Opinions

Big L
07-12-2016, 09:47 PM
I think Lennon slating JC in public would have been due to frustration, you have to think the coaching staff had been at him re his lack of effort and missed chances prior to Lennon going public. NL dropped JC put in Boyle who played really well prior to Friday and that made it hard to put JC back in. It's unfair to drop Boyle after one bad game, the answer might be to play a 4-3-3 Boyle Graham and JC.

cmcd
07-12-2016, 10:54 PM
By not playing him we are depriving ourselves of 2 things:

1. A great player who WILL score a lot of goals.
2. A sellable asset. If he continues to play and score his value will rise, however after spending a decent wedge of time on the bench you have to imagine his value has already plummeted and will continue to do so.

As I have already said in my opinion good goalscorer but not great player

GreenCastle
07-12-2016, 11:05 PM
Goals win games..

Jason scores goals..

Holt and JC up front.

The front pairings aren't are issue it's the service from wide areas and lack of goals where we should be asking the questions.

underscore
07-12-2016, 11:19 PM
I want us to go 343....we wont...but we'd murder teams like Dumbarton...


Daz Hanlon Fonts

Bartley
Dylan Martin
Shinnie

Boyle Holt Cummings

Dashing Bob S
07-12-2016, 11:49 PM
I want us to go 343....we wont...but we'd murder teams like Dumbarton...


Daz Hanlon Fonts

Bartley
Dylan Martin
Shinnie

Boyle Holt Cummings

and other ***** like that

MWHIBBIES
08-12-2016, 12:26 AM
I want us to go 343....we wont...but we'd murder teams like Dumbarton...


Daz Hanlon Fonts

Bartley
Dylan Martin
Shinnie

Boyle Holt CummingsWe won't for good reason, that team would get murdered out wide and have far too many players forward.

silverhibee
08-12-2016, 12:27 AM
He's may be be best goal scorer but certainly not best player

I have heard many a top manager and run of the mill ones as well who have been quite clear that the hardest thing to do in a game of football is score goals, and if that's the case then Cummings should be starting if he is the best goal scorer.

Andy74
08-12-2016, 12:45 AM
I have heard many a top manager and run of the mill ones as well who have been quite clear that the hardest thing to do in a game of football is score goals, and if that's the case then Cummings should be starting if he is the best goal scorer.

Maybe but he hadn't been scoring and the guy that came in and replaced him had been scoring and actually driving us on with his pace.

Boyle has had one poorer game. Maybe Cummings will come back in but it's not exactly the obvious choice that's being discussed here. Boyle has deserved the jersey. It's up to Cummings to get it back now.

basehibby
08-12-2016, 02:13 AM
Having waited patiently on the bench for several weeks now and with Boyle's dismal performance at Tannadice, will Jason start on Saturday? Ought he? Thoughts?

Dismal is over cooking it big style. Boyle has played really well over the last tranche of matches - his pace causes sides loads of problems and he's made smart runs to get on the end of chances and put a good few away.

Cummings is more of a natural finisher though and I'm keen to see him get back in the side. Against Dumbarton there maybe could be a chance to play both though - with Boyle deployed in a wider role in a 442 maybe?

NZ Green
08-12-2016, 05:35 AM
Cummings was benched because we weren't scoring goals. The first 6 games in the league (Cummings starting) we scored 7 goals as a team. The last 6 games in the league (Cummings on the bench) we have scored 13 goals as a team. From a managerial perspective, Lennon made a good decision.

Saying that, I would like to see Cummings start, players' performance will always dip, this is his chance to show what he is capable of again.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 08:38 AM
Cummings was benched because we weren't scoring goals. The first 6 games in the league (Cummings starting) we scored 7 goals as a team. The last 6 games in the league (Cummings on the bench) we have scored 13 goals as a team. From a managerial perspective, Lennon made a good decision.

Saying that, I would like to see Cummings start, players' performance will always dip, this is his chance to show what he is capable of again.

Didn't we take more points from the first 6 than the last 6 ? And the added goals is more likely due to boyles introduction and finally using some pace, let's play Boyle and jason together and see how many we score !!

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 09:10 AM
Cummings was benched because we weren't scoring goals. The first 6 games in the league (Cummings starting) we scored 7 goals as a team. The last 6 games in the league (Cummings on the bench) we have scored 13 goals as a team. From a managerial perspective, Lennon made a good decision.

Saying that, I would like to see Cummings start, players' performance will always dip, this is his chance to show what he is capable of again.

I have a feeling Cummings won't start though - Lennon just doesn't change course very readilly, does he? I'm sure Lennon's preference will be to hold him back until he feels Cummings is ready to stuff this layoff back down Lennon's throat. I think it will take a few goals and assists as a sub for that to happen.

Cummings has the ability to be Hib's top scorer at a canter but he had reached a plateau long before his dip in form. Both Cummings and Hibs need to be playing a level above where they are now if we are going to be serious SPL contenders.

Smartie
08-12-2016, 09:25 AM
I have a feeling Cummings won't start though - Lennon just doesn't change course very readilly, does he? I'm sure Lennon's preference will be to hold him back until he feels Cummings is ready to stuff this layoff back down Lennon's throat. I think it will take a few goals and assists as a sub for that to happen.

Cummings has the ability to be Hib's top scorer at a canter but he had reached a plateau long before his dip in form. Both Cummings and Hibs need to be playing a level above where they are now if we are going to be serious SPL contenders.

He dropped Cummings within a couple of months of coming in the door, when even though Cummings wasn't playing particularly well he was still getting a good few goals.

Stubbs persisted with Cummings through poorer runs of form and with partners he had less of an understanding with.

Dropping Cummings in the first place was pretty bold of Lennon and I don't agree that Lennon doesn't change course readily. He's used a few formations, shaken up his line-ups and dropped a few big players for us already. At times he's seemed slow to use subs but at other times he's used subs to great effect.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 09:33 AM
Maybe but he hadn't been scoring and the guy that came in and replaced him had been scoring and actually driving us on with his pace.

Boyle has had one poorer game. Maybe Cummings will come back in but it's not exactly the obvious choice that's being discussed here. Boyle has deserved the jersey. It's up to Cummings to get it back now.

When wasn't he scoring prior to being dropped ? How long was his drought?

underscore
08-12-2016, 09:49 AM
We won't for good reason, that team would get murdered out wide and have far too many players forward.

It wouldn't - thats not how the system works..

flash
08-12-2016, 10:27 AM
Maybe but he hadn't been scoring and the guy that came in and replaced him had been scoring and actually driving us on with his pace.

Boyle has had one poorer game. Maybe Cummings will come back in but it's not exactly the obvious choice that's being discussed here. Boyle has deserved the jersey. It's up to Cummings to get it back now.

He didn't score in 3 games, 2 of which we had a man sent off in which resulted in him being taken off.
Before that he was just about our only source of goals.
He has had a rest it's time to let him loose.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 10:36 AM
Funny no one wants to back up their own claims that he wasn't scoring before he was dropped,post nonsense with no stats to back it up

The Leith Dutch
08-12-2016, 11:04 AM
He should. As much as I like Boyle he was brutal on Friday and Cummings now deserves a chance to reclaim a starting place. Not that our top scorer by a mile should have been out of the team in the first place IMO.

Bit of an odd thing to say - Boyle should be dropped following a bad performance but Cummings shouldn't have been dropped following three poor performances.

Don't get me wrong - I like Cummings and not at all against him coming back into the team but if he's not scoring I feel he doesn't offer much.

Assuming it's not a case of being unlucky while playing generally well then if he has a run of poor games we should be dropping him and if the player coming in has a run of good games with goals then we should be starting that player instead rather than going on reputation.

flash
08-12-2016, 11:06 AM
Did he have a run of poor games or were the whole team under par? Not to mention Bartleys two incorrect red cards.

SRHibs
08-12-2016, 11:17 AM
There's no-one else like Cummings on the team; no-one else with the 'Riordan factor' - an ability to come up with a goal out of nothing. Even in poor form you always feel like there's a decent chance he'll pop up with a goal, and goals win games.

The Leith Dutch
08-12-2016, 11:21 AM
Did he have a run of poor games or were the whole team under par? Not to mention Bartleys two incorrect red cards.

It's a reasonable point that the team wasn't on good form though I'd also argue that Cummings wasn't offering much to change that and therefore was a sensible point to change.

There's a decent argument that the upturn in form was related to us changing the tactical approach and putting a guy with pace through the middle to get in behind teams. Boyle isn't as good a goalscorer as Cummings but playing balls in to a pacy striker to get in behind resulted in more goals so I think was a good call.

flash
08-12-2016, 11:32 AM
It's a reasonable point that the team wasn't on good form though I'd also argue that Cummings wasn't offering much to change that and therefore was a sensible point to change.

There's a decent argument that the upturn in form was related to us changing the tactical approach and putting a guy with pace through the middle to get in behind teams. Boyle isn't as good a goalscorer as Cummings but playing balls in to a pacy striker to get in behind resulted in more goals so I think was a good call.

Fair enough. I think he was unlucky but Boyle took his chance so it wasn't a disastrous change.

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 11:34 AM
There's no-one else like Cummings on the team; no-one else with the 'Riordan factor' - an ability to come up with a goal out of nothing. Even in poor form you always feel like there's a decent chance he'll pop up with a goal, and goals win games.

Riordan isn't the best example since that was a very good team all round. Griffiths and Stokes (1st time) are better examples of players who got wins for pretty average teams and both were better at it than Cummings IMO.:duck:

WeeRussell
08-12-2016, 12:57 PM
He should 100% be back starting, in my opinion.

A lot of the top goalscorers all across the world didn't/don't "offer much else" if that's what Cummings is allegedly doing. Jason gets in the right positions and scores goals, which is exactly what you want from a centre forward. I'd rather he was as far up the field, and as close to the opposition goal as possible. This " doesn't offers much else" has become a common phrase so people can defend Lennon not playing him. Meanwhile Grant Holt offers so much more because he doesn't score many goals but he does things that people can't actually explain but can assure you that you don't know anything about football if you can't see it.

For what it's worth, I actually think he's improving all the time at his hold up/link-up play and using his body and touch.

Back in he comes.

cmcd
08-12-2016, 01:42 PM
I have heard many a top manager and run of the mill ones as well who have been quite clear that the hardest thing to do in a game of football is score goals, and if that's the case then Cummings should be starting if he is the best goal scorer.

Let's be honest here .No one but J C and NL know why he is not playing .Just have to put faith in the manager

NZ Green
08-12-2016, 01:51 PM
Funny no one wants to back up their own claims that he wasn't scoring before he was dropped,post nonsense with no stats to back it up
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before he was benched, we went 4 games without a win and he only scored once (when we lost to Ayr Utd.) We then scored 8 goals in 3 games.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 02:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before he was benched, we went 4 games without a win and he only scored once (when we lost to Ayr Utd.) We then scored 8 goals in 3 games.

Yeah 3 games out 4 he didn't score , two of our hardest away games and we had a man sent off early doors both times (Queens and raith) who were also two of the form sides in the league at that stage, other game he didn't score was Dundee utd at easter road, a match where we created absolutely nothing..

You mention we scored plenty goals after we dropped him, we also played the bottom 3 sides in the league and changed formation and added pace upfront, I want to see Cummings and Boyle start a game against all the ***** in this league !! Funny how the extra goals were scoring without jason weren't their against Dundee utd or Falkirk, ten men for 70 minutes Falkirk had aswell, so im not buying that were a much better side without jason.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 02:49 PM
Oh and we dropped him for the first time in the petrofac cup match with St mirren at easter road and got knocked out and scored one goal, another great performance without jason lol

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 03:03 PM
He should 100% be back starting, in my opinion.

A lot of the top goalscorers all across the world didn't/don't "offer much else" if that's what Cummings is allegedly doing. Jason gets in the right positions and scores goals, which is exactly what you want from a centre forward. I'd rather he was as far up the field, and as close to the opposition goal as possible. This " doesn't offers much else" has become a common phrase so people can defend Lennon not playing him. Meanwhile Grant Holt offers so much more because he doesn't score many goals but he does things that people can't actually explain but can assure you that you don't know anything about football if you can't see it.

For what it's worth, I actually think he's improving all the time at his hold up/link-up play and using his body and touch.

Back in he comes.

"A lot of the top goalscorers all across the world" and being top scorer in the Scottish Championship isn't such a great comparison. We have been dominating most of our games (possession and goal attempts) for the past two years but we are still stuck in the mire and we just shouldn't be. There is a problem there and it needs to be fixed!

And your comment on Holt is nonsense. He is pure and simply a back to the goal player - like Mixu was. When he strolls lazilly back from being offside he is trying to leave it till the last minute to wrong foot the defence.

Cummings on the other hand isn't a back to goal player and when he strolls lazilly back form being offside he is either lazy or lacking in comprehension.

CupidStunt1875
08-12-2016, 03:05 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but before he was benched, we went 4 games without a win and he only scored once (when we lost to Ayr Utd.) We then scored 8 goals in 3 games.

Stats can easily be manipulated to suit an agenda. He scored 8 league goals in our first 6 games, he is by far and away our best goalscorer without being close to our best player, and for that reason alone should be first pick every week.

blackpoolhibs
08-12-2016, 03:07 PM
When JC was not scoring it was like playing with a man short, and to be honest in my opinion even some of the games he did score, it was all he contributed.

Now dont get me wrong here, if you are a forward and you are scoring goals, you can say you have done your job and deserve to keep your place.

Lennon thought he was not contributing enough, he must have thought this over a number of games. Boyle came in and replaced him, he also scored in those games and gave the team more of an option in my opinion again.

Boyle was awful last week, but before that he had again in my opinion done enough perhaps even more than enough to keep his place. He had scored and he'd help create much more than JC in my opinion, mainly through his pace and closing down of the defenders.

Personally i think Boyle should keep his place, after all he's only had one poor game. If Cummings is back on Saturday, it should be at the expense of Holt, or as some are saying play 3 up top.

After all its bloody Dumbarton we are playing, if we cant go out and attack them, and forget about having 2 defensive midfielders then we really are worse than what i think we are.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 03:13 PM
When JC was not scoring it was like playing with a man short, and to be honest in my opinion even some of the games he did score, it was all he contributed.

Now dont get me wrong here, if you are a forward and you are scoring goals, you can say you have done your job and deserve to keep your place.

Lennon thought he was not contributing enough, he must have thought this over a number of games. Boyle came in and replaced him, he also scored in those games and gave the team more of an option in my opinion again.

Boyle was awful last week, but before that he had again in my opinion done enough perhaps even more than enough to keep his place. He had scored and he'd help create much more than JC in my opinion, mainly through his pace and closing down of the defenders.

Personally i think Boyle should keep his place, after all he's only had one poor game. If Cummings is back on Saturday, it should be at the expense of Holt, or as some are saying play 3 up top.

After all its bloody Dumbarton we are playing, if we cant go out and attack them, and forget about having 2 defensive midfielders then we really are worse than what i think we are.

You make a few valid points but he was never dropped for Boyle, keatings was his replacement he got inured and Boyle and Graham had jumped jason in the queue, he went from 1st choice to 5th choice striker on the back off not scoring when the team had ten men away from home to decent sides .

JimBHibees
08-12-2016, 03:17 PM
You make a few valid points but he was never dropped for Boyle, keatings was his replacement he got inured and Boyle and Graham had jumped jason in the queue, he went from 1st choice to 5th choice striker on the back off not scoring when the team had ten men away from home to decent sides .

There will have been a number of reasons why he was dropped most probably to do with a lack of workrate and application shown in training and games. He is a young player and has a cockiness which can easily move into arrogance and complacency. If that has happened and I am assuming that it has then the manager is doing him a favour by making it clear to him that he needs to improve in that regard.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 03:17 PM
"A lot of the top goalscorers all across the world" and being top scorer in the Scottish Championship isn't such a great comparison. We have been dominating most of our games (possession and goal attempts) for the past two years but we are still stuck in the mire and we just shouldn't be. There is a problem there and it needs to be fixed!

And your comment on Holt is nonsense. He is pure and simply a back to the goal player - like Mixu was. When he strolls lazilly back from being offside he is trying to leave it till the last minute to wrong foot the defence.

Cummings on the other hand isn't a back to goal player and when he strolls lazilly back form being offside he is either lazy or lacking in comprehension.

All about opinions most folk I know would rather have jason in the side that watching holt stroll and moan his way through every game, when Jason's offside it's lazy when grants offside it's clever play lol brilliant

J-C
08-12-2016, 03:18 PM
Lennon called him out about his work ethic, then there was the no show at a fat test and a no show at the golf outing, he was dropped as a point of principle, I spoke to his old man last week. Jason needs to be doing more and he knows it.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 03:21 PM
There will have been a number of reasons why he was dropped most probably to do with a lack of workrate and application shown in training and games. He is a young player and has a cockiness which can easily move into arrogance and complacency. If that has happened and I am assuming that it has then the manager is doing him a favour by making it clear to him that he needs to improve in that regard.

Like I said it's all about opinions, I dont think holt works hard I don't think he adds much, and every game keatings came on last season I was screaming at him to work harder closing the opposition down but he seems to have the reputation of a Jamie vardy type grafter on here lol

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 03:35 PM
All about opinions most folk I know would rather have jason in the side that watching holt stroll and moan his way through every game, when Jason's offside it's lazy when grants offside it's clever play lol brilliant

Quite right, it is brilliant! You should watch him sometime - he keeps his eyes peeled on the action and whenever there is a possibility of a long ball he moves up smartish. He might get caught offside the odd time but it is still good play.

Boyle sometimes gets caught offside too - when he makes his run too soon. Cummings mostly gets caught offside when he hasn't bothered to get onside in the first place.

JimBHibees
08-12-2016, 03:35 PM
Like I said it's all about opinions, I dont think holt works hard I don't think he adds much, and every game keatings came on last season I was screaming at him to work harder closing the opposition down but he seems to have the reputation of a Jamie vardy type grafter on here lol

Holt definitely works harder than Jason and has a physicality that allows us to play more direct.

TonyStokeprano
08-12-2016, 04:02 PM
Holt definitely works harder than Jason and has a physicality that allows us to play more direct.

Yeah hopeless long balls really worked for us , like I say we changed formation and introduced Boyle at the same time jason was dropped, the introducation of pace and an extra central defender is imo why we got a few good results, and I reckon we woulda scored the same if not more if Cummings had a chance from the start with Boyle! Think its the only combo weve not seen start together. Yeah our two top scorers together let's give that a try. Like I said the games we scored loads in were against the lower sides or sides in terrible form, the games we havent scored a lot In have been against teams in good form, regardless of jason or no jason. How many of our 50 direct balls on Friday did big grant win btw

JimBHibees
08-12-2016, 04:05 PM
Yeah hopeless long balls really worked for us , like I say we changed formation and introduced Boyle at the same time jason was dropped, the introducation of pace and an extra central defender is imo why we got a few good results, and I reckon we woulda scored the same if not more if Cummings had a chance from the start with Boyle! Think its the only combo weve not seen start together. Yeah our two top scorers together let's give that a try. Like I said the games we scored loads in were against the lower sides or sides in terrible form, the games we havent scored a lot In have been against teams in good form, regardless of jason or no jason. How many of our 50 direct balls on Friday did big grant win btw

I think it has worked for us on occasions and can be a useful option to passing passively in front of a packed defence.

underscore
08-12-2016, 04:13 PM
Like I said it's all about opinions, I dont think holt works hard I don't think he adds much, and every game keatings came on last season I was screaming at him to work harder closing the opposition down but he seems to have the reputation of a Jamie vardy type grafter on here lol

Nothing wrong with being a fan of Cummings but to suggest Keatings isn't a grafter really takes away from your discussion point. Keatings for me has been our biggest miss since he got injured. Him and Boyle work harder then anyone in the squad when it comes to closing down players and pressing the game up.

WeeRussell
08-12-2016, 04:30 PM
Quite right, it is brilliant! You should watch him sometime - he keeps his eyes peeled on the action and whenever there is a possibility of a long ball he moves up smartish. He might get caught offside the odd time but it is still good play.

Boyle sometimes gets caught offside too - when he makes his run too soon. Cummings mostly gets caught offside when he hasn't bothered to get onside in the first place.

Funny thing is - I don't particularly dislike Holt or doubt his ability, I really hope he proves to be a top signing for us this season. So far, in my opinion, he hasn't. I also don't rate Cummings as highly as a lot of people do - I just don't have any reason not to want him in our team right now.

Re your reply on Cummings - I'm not comparing him to a top scorer in the world in terms of ability. My point is that he is a centre forward that scores goals without necessarily offering what you call "much else".. as are a number of brilliant forward players in the world.

Your points as to why you're such a big fan of Holt only reinforce what I was saying - if he is brilliant/intelligent for doing the same thing that makes Cummings "lazy", there is little point in debating with you. And of all the things that people argue as being Holt's strengths, catching the defence on their heels and turning in behind, on the edge of offside, is a new one! I played up front myself and know what you're trying to say - but you appear to have a very blinkered opinion on the two players.

Unseen work
08-12-2016, 04:35 PM
It's nothing to do with Boyle being dropped imo.

Holt shouldn't be starting, he has played pretty much every game and has about 3 or 4 goals? We are now in December.

If we had signed him from say St Mirren, he would be getting all sorts of dogs abuse. Because he has came from England with a reputation everyone seems to be a bit blind towards him.

Get Cummings back in and the gap will open up between us and united.

I would bet most defenders in this league, or the league above that have played against Jason, would be delighted when they get the team sheet to discover he is on the bench.

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 04:42 PM
Funny thing is - I don't particularly dislike Holt or doubt his ability, I really hope he proves to be a top signing for us this season. So far, in my opinion, he hasn't. I also don't rate Cummings as highly as a lot of people do - I just don't have any reason not to want him in our team right now.

Re your reply on Cummings - I'm not comparing him to a top scorer in the world in terms of ability. My point is that he is a centre forward that scores goals without necessarily offering what you call "much else".. as are a number of brilliant forward players in the world.

Your points as to why you're such a big fan of Holt only reinforce what I was saying - if he is brilliant/intelligent for doing the same thing that makes Cummings "lazy", there is little point in debating with you. And of all the things that people argue as being Holt's strengths, catching the defence on their heels and turning in behind, on the edge of offside, is a new one! I played up front myself and know what you're trying to say - but you appear to have a very blinkered opinion on the two players.

I'm sorry if it makes no sense to you but I just don't think having two players playing the "Mixu" role is such a great idea - especially if Jason is one of them.

A previous poster had noted that JC's hold-up play had improved - something I had noticed as well. But then I wondered, who is he holding the ball for? Him being the top striker and all. It just results in another mob-handed attack which just get's bogged down.

ancient hibee
08-12-2016, 04:59 PM
Nothing wrong with being a fan of Cummings but to suggest Keatings isn't a grafter really takes away from your discussion point. Keatings for me has been our biggest miss since he got injured. Him and Boyle work harder then anyone in the squad when it comes to closing down players and pressing the game up.
However I think Keatings makes wee pretendy tackles when trying to close defenders down.Boyle goes in as if he means it.Much better.

WeeRussell
08-12-2016, 05:07 PM
I'm sorry if it makes no sense to you but I just don't think having two players playing the "Mixu" role is such a great idea - especially if Jason is one of them.

A previous poster had noted that JC's hold-up play had improved - something I had noticed as well. But then I wondered, who is he holding the ball for? Him being the top striker and all. It just results in another mob-handed attack which just get's bogged down.

I hadn't realised you were suggesting that Cummings plays like Mixu, as well as Holt. I disagree with that also but that's another matter haha

It was me that said his hold-up play had improved - at least we agree on something :greengrin If he's the top man then he's got the most people to hold the ball up for in the whole team!! I don't think he is a 'hold-up player' it's just a part of his game that's developed, as there will always be times where we are weathering a storm or needing to get out.... in which case him being able to buy time, hold players off/win free kicks etc is useful. He is a goal scorer, but we won't be on the end of a chance every time he receives the ball (maybe it is these times that some people/Lennon believe he doesn't offer as much :confused:)

I happen to be of the opinion that his game (including goals) offers more to us than Holt from what I've seen so far.

Frazerbob
08-12-2016, 05:12 PM
If we were to poll opposition managers and ask if they would rather play Hibs with or without Cummings in the team, what would the answer be?

Arch Stanton
08-12-2016, 05:29 PM
I hadn't realised you were suggesting that Cummings plays like Mixu, as well as Holt. I disagree with that also but that's another matter haha

It was me that said his hold-up play had improved - at least we agree on something :greengrin If he's the top man then he's got the most people to hold the ball up for in the whole team!! I don't think he is a 'hold-up player' it's just a part of his game that's developed, as there will always be times where we are weathering a storm or needing to get out.... in which case him being able to buy time, hold players off/win free kicks etc is useful. He is a goal scorer, but we won't be on the end of a chance every time he receives the ball (maybe it is these times that some people/Lennon believe he doesn't offer as much :confused:)

I happen to be of the opinion that his game (including goals) offers more to us than Holt from what I've seen so far.

Calling me a fan of either Mixu or Holt is taking things too far - I appreciate the role they play is all. Anyway, Craig Brewster was the best there was at Hibs - could hold-up and score!

The biggest plus about the way Holt plays is that it stops teams playing with such a high line and gives more room for the midfield to use.

Smartie
08-12-2016, 05:34 PM
If we were to poll opposition managers and ask if they would rather play Hibs with or without Cummings in the team, what would the answer be?

I don't think it's that clear-cut.

Some will fear him for his ability to score out of nothing from distance and would rather not play against him.

Some will tell their defenders that if they keep tight on him and don't give him space to shoot on his left foot then he's not got much to offer other than that. I'm sure a lot of slower defenders would rather deal with Cummings than Boyle.



I think Boyle is the player of ours that most defenders wouldn't want to come up against because there are no defenders in this country, let alone this league that can get near him for pace.

I do think we have a better variety of front man than we had last season, and I do think that all 5 of them have a role to play.

Smartie
08-12-2016, 05:40 PM
Calling me a fan of either Mixu or Holt is taking things too far - I appreciate the role they play is all. Anyway, Craig Brewster was the best there was at Hibs - could hold-up and score!

The biggest plus about the way Holt plays is that it stops teams playing with such a high line and gives more room for the midfield to use.

Garry O'Connor could do both too, I reckon he learnt loads from Brewster (who was superb).

Riordan and O'Connor were a cracking partnership. O'Connor took the blows, held it up, won flick-ons and free-kicks and covered every blade of grass (in his first spell) whilst chipping in with the odd goal whereas Riordan did a lot less all-round but got more goals. It's a team game though and they were better for having each other. Different playing styles but both brilliant players.

I don't think Holt and Cummings are quite the same but I do think the principle is similar.

I don't think Boyle and Cummings would work as a pair, but I could see them being deadly in a 3 with either Holt or Graham and Dumbarton at home is the game to try it.

IlDiavola
08-12-2016, 06:15 PM
If we were to poll opposition managers and ask if they would rather play Hibs with or without Cummings in the team, what would the answer be?

Your post implies that it would be a clear victory for 'without'.

I don't think it would be that way.

Maybe 60/40 but no landslide.

Just my opinion like :wink:

Big L
08-12-2016, 06:21 PM
If we were to poll opposition managers and ask if they would rather play Hibs with or without Cummings in the team, what would the answer be?

I think the response would be " play whoever you want , but don't play Boyle" no defence can deal with his pace, and he scores goals. He's had one bad game, point of fact, most of the team were of the boil that night. ( no pun intended)

AgentDaleCooper
08-12-2016, 06:23 PM
I think it has worked for us on occasions and can be a useful option to passing passively in front of a packed defence.

genuine question - when was the last time we scored a goal from lumping it up to holt?

J-C
08-12-2016, 07:32 PM
The ball needs to be played to feet for Holt to be effective like when Malonga was here, JC, Boyle and Keatings are good at finding gaps in the defence.

ancient hibee
08-12-2016, 08:51 PM
Calling me a fan of either Mixu or Holt is taking things too far - I appreciate the role they play is all. Anyway, Craig Brewster was the best there was at Hibs - could hold-up and score!

The biggest plus about the way Holt plays is that it stops teams playing with such a high line and gives more room for the midfield to use.


Brewster was let go far too early but his goal scoring record is nowhere near Mixu's.

Brewster 5 goals in 28 appearances

Mixu 40 136

JohnMcM
08-12-2016, 08:52 PM
I don't think Boyle and Cummings would work as a pair, but I could see them being deadly in a 3 with either Holt or Graham and Dumbarton at home is the game to try it.

Agree with this.:greengrin

where'stheslope
08-12-2016, 09:01 PM
Quite right, it is brilliant! You should watch him sometime - he keeps his eyes peeled on the action and whenever there is a possibility of a long ball he moves up smartish. He might get caught offside the odd time but it is still good play.

Boyle sometimes gets caught offside too - when he makes his run too soon. Cummings mostly gets caught offside when he hasn't bothered to get onside in the first place.

That's Lennons point.

Jase must work more off the ball than he's been doing i.e. coming back into midfield when the opposition has the ball.

If he thinks he can get by as a 1 trick pony (scoring goals) he will not get on very well in football!!!!

Billy Whizz
08-12-2016, 09:03 PM
Brewster was let go far too early but his goal scoring record is nowhere near Mixu's.

Brewster 5 goals in 28 appearances

Mixu 40 136

He went for more money at the Pars, which ended up with them going into admin a few years later, for their owner spinning the plates for too many years

Arch Stanton
09-12-2016, 08:23 AM
Garry O'Connor could do both too, I reckon he learnt loads from Brewster (who was superb).

.......................................



Mind you, O'Connor was out of his depth for a while just after Brewster left but fair play to him that he came good.

Same for Cummings, if he can run through on goal and shoot as often as Boyle does then he'll not only be a star in the Championship but in any league he cares to play in. He did it a couple of times against United so the signs are good - but there is no harm in him starting on the bench for now if that's what NL decides - what's the rush?

SGE HIBS
09-12-2016, 09:23 AM
Needs changed as it's too predictable at times.
Even Graham starting and a bit more direct would serve its purpose.. We just need to win