Who will Sturgeon blame for our worsening education system then?

[hibs0666]

Scottish schools drop in world rankings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729)

Dear Nicola,

Rather than posturing for Indy round 2, can you please just do your job and address the increasingly glaring deficiencies of our education system. This is happening on your watch and you have absolutely no excuses.

All the best

Horrified Parent

[lyonhibs]

<Inherited a mess> <Change takes time, just be patient> <Labour would be doing even worse> <This is what "No" voters voted for, Project Fear is to blame> <wibble>

It'll be one of those ones I'd imagine.

[Moulin Yarns]

What subject does she teach?

[#FromTheCapital]

Popcorn on standby.

[BroxburnHibee]

Popcorn on standby.

It's pathetic.

[Moulin Yarns]

It's pathetic.

:agree:

Check the threads the OP has started.

4 of the last 6 threads he has started are digs at the government

[lyonhibs]

:agree:

Check the threads the OP has started.

4 of the last 6 threads he has started are digs at the government

Tackle the question, not the man.

What difference does it make who started the thread? Scottish pupils' literacy and numeracy levels are falling, both relative to when the SNP took power and since the last PISA scores were taken in 2012.

What's going on?

[Jack]

Dear Horrified Parent

Thank you for your letter.

At the Scottish Government we take the education of our children very seriously which is why I appointed John Swinney as the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills.

I have passed your letter to him.

NS

[#FromTheCapital]

It's pathetic.

What's pathetic? If said poster was posting threads that showed the SNP in a more positive light then nobody would say a word.

[hibs0666]

What subject does she teach?

Education policy and strategy.

[hibs0666]

:agree:

Check the threads the OP has started.

4 of the last 6 threads he has started are digs at the government

You're right. It ain't hard to have a pop at that mob of chancers. :wink:

[lyonhibs]

[QUOTE=Jack;4873667]Dear Horrified Parent

Thank you for your letter.

At the Scottish Government we take the education of our children very seriously which is why I appointed John Swinney as the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills.

I have passed your letter to him.

NS[/QUOTE

I know you're being jocular here, but if I asked the head of an organisation, the one ultimately responsibly for the overall success of the organisation in all their fields of activity, a question and the answer was "I've passed this question on to another department", that would smack of doing a sneaky politician-esque, sleight of hand passing the buck manoeuvre.

[BroxburnHibee]

What's pathetic? If said poster was posting threads that showed the SNP in a more positive light then nobody would say a word.

"nobody would say a word"

Really?

I just cant be bothered with all the finger pointing to be honest.

When did these PISA ratings become the be all and end all?

[Jack]

I know you're being jocular here, but if I asked the head of an organisation, the one ultimately responsibly for the overall success of the organisation in all their fields of activity, a question and the answer was "I've passed this question on to another department", that would smack of doing a sneaky politician-esque, sleight of hand passing the buck manoeuvre.

TBF if such a letter was received it would be answered by an official in JSs department.

And, if they were to read and sign all replies there would be no time to get on with indyref2, education or indeed anything at all!

[MountcastleHibs]

The way they collect their data is a joke anyway - part of the reason standardised testing is coming back.

[beensaidbefore]

Regardless of what party we vote for, everyone has a responsibility to work together to identify the failings and discuss strategies that are agreed across the board and not chopped and changed all the time as a knee jerk reaction to polls like this.

One thing i am aware of is the drive for fairness and equality for all pupils. This is an admirable approach in an attempt to lessen the gap between the haves and have nots. It is my belief that by helping some to achieve their potential, others who traditionally would have been given extra attention because of their above average ability are not being supported to acvhieve their potential in the same way as those who are at the opposite end of the spectrum. I recognise that those at the lower end of the spectrum require more and often specialised support to fulfil their potential, but I don't think it should be to the detriment of those who show above average potential.

There has been discussions recently about the introduction of grammar schools etc, and whilst this does in some ways reinforce the gaps, systems like this would afford pupils who were academically more 'clever' a better opportunity to fulfil their potential.

By continually making exams easier are we really helping our kids or just giving them a false impression of how much they know?

In the strive to treat everyone equally, I think we are missing the point that we are not all exactly the same.

[#FromTheCapital]

"nobody would say a word"

Really?

I just cant be bothered with all the finger pointing to be honest.

When did these PISA ratings become the be all and end all?

Given the disproportionately high level of suppprt for the SNP on here, then yes it's unlikely that anyone would say anything on this forum.

[RyeSloan]

"nobody would say a word"

Really?

I just cant be bothered with all the finger pointing to be honest.

When did these PISA ratings become the be all and end all?

They are not the be all and end all but they support the findings of Scotland's Chief statistician last year..

Despite the political noise Scotland has a pretty decent education system but I don't think there is much argument that by some measures it's going backwards.

After a decade in power there can be only one party that carries the can for that and to be fair to Swinney he's not suggesting otherwise. However asking for more time and stressing the need for radical reform does make you wonder if it will be any different this time around with their new plan...

[beensaidbefore]

They are not the be all and end all but they support the findings of Scotland's Chief statistician last year..

Despite the political noise Scotland has a pretty decent education system but I don't think there is much argument that by some measures it's going backwards.

After a decade in power there can be only one party that carries the can for that and to be fair to Swinney he's not suggesting otherwise. However asking for more time and stressing the need for radical reform does make you wonder if it will be any different this time around with their new plan...

Radical reform is a statement I hate. It usually ends up with a hairbrained attempt to fix things, often having the completely opposite effect. This knee jerk people pleasing, chopping and changing every 5 minutes is partly to blame for us being where we are now IMO.

[Glory Lurker]

It must be a disappointment to the OP that Sco Gov isn't trying to deflect and is accepting the results aren't good enough. It was accepted at the time of Swinney 's appointment that things needed to improve. I trust them to improve it.

[hibs0666]

It must be a disappointment to the OP that Sco Gov isn't trying to deflect and is accepting the results aren't good enough. It was accepted at the time of Swinney 's appointment that things needed to improve. I trust them to improve it.

No disappointment at all. I'm sure the Swinners will come riding to the rescue of the Scottish education system. But I won't hold my breath.

[beensaidbefore]

How long has the guy been doing the job? Give him a chance surely?

[RyeSloan]

How long has the guy been doing the job? Give him a chance surely?

I doubt he is making up the policies himself...the point is that the SNP (and Sturgeon...was she not Edu Sec previously?) have had control over the education system for over a decade but yet we are seeing some standards fall and claims of radical reform required.

The question is why, after such a long time, is such a major change in direction required?

[Glory Lurker]

I doubt he is making up the policies himself...the point is that the SNP (and Sturgeon...was she not Edu Sec previously?) have had control over the education system for over a decade but yet we are seeing some standards fall and claims of radical reform required.

The question is why, after such a long time, is such a major change in direction required?

Because it's been identified that it wasn't working, it's gone wrong, and needs changed? What do you want them to do - resign and have an election, go back in a time machine and change it?

[marinello59]

Because it's been identified that it wasn't working, it's gone wrong, and needs changed? What do you want them to do - resign and have an election, go back in a time machine and change it?
Rule number one. Nobody criticises The Party.

[RyeSloan]

Because it's been identified that it wasn't working, it's gone wrong, and needs changed? What do you want them to do - resign and have an election, go back in a time machine and change it?

Well that's one option..[emoji12]

[Glory Lurker]

Well that's one option..[emoji12]

The resigning one, I take it? Fair enough.

[Glory Lurker]

Rule number one. Nobody criticises The Party.

Eh?

[RyeSloan]

The resigning one, I take it? Fair enough.

Ha ha well I suppose there was actually two options but I didn't take the resigning one seriously [emoji6]

Naa seriously I get your point and I did say earlier that at least Swinney is not pulling the blame someone else card...

Always the same when a party has been in power for a good period, when things start to go wrong they do have to start carrying the can so I wonder if this will start to take its toll on their so far rather enduring popularity.

[allmodcons]

Rule number one. Nobody criticises The Party.

Not your best post M59.

Have you been reading the Daily Mail?

[Sir David Gray]

Scottish schools drop in world rankings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729)

Dear Nicola,

Rather than posturing for Indy round 2, can you please just do your job and address the increasingly glaring deficiencies of our education system. This is happening on your watch and you have absolutely no excuses.

All the best

Horrified Parent

I'm sure she'll get back to you once she's conducted press conference number 34564678 on why we need a second independence referendum.

[snooky]

Scottish schools drop in world rankings (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38207729)

Dear Nicola,

Rather than posturing for Indy round 2, can you please just do your job and address the increasingly glaring deficiencies of our education system. This is happening on your watch and you have absolutely no excuses.

All the best

Horrified Parent

You been talking to Willie (Education Education Education) Rennie? :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Can anyone remember the reason behind the raising of the higher Council Tax bands?

Yep, to go directly towards education.

I disagree with the methods used, but it is a sign that the government know things need to change.

[Beefster]

Ten years into the SNP being in charge of education and folk are asking how long a politician has been in the job?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Ejucashun was moer gooder in ma day.

Seriously though, this appears to be a problem not just in Scotland but England too and Wales is miles behind both in these results from what I saw on the news.

The education system in general seems to be at a low ebb and I keep hearing that its to do with class sizes and kids from deprived areas failing to do well at school ..... but I remember vividly being part of primary and secondary school classes that were close on 30 pupils at times and I can match deprived upbringings with anybody, its hard to read a book when the leccy has been cut off ... again!

I have 3 brothers and we are all literate to a very good or reasonable standard in spite of these conditions, though I admit I cant count for toffee. So what is causing this problem? Are the teachers rubbish? Are the pupils more difficult for teachers to handle? Are there too many days off?

What I cant accept is blaming the education system for a pupil who, short of having a diagnosed, or undiagnosed, learning difficulty, has gone through at least 10 years of primary and secondary education and come out the other end unable to read or write ... surely to hell no amount of deprivation or class numbers or even the odd incompetent teacher can be to blame for that and what about the parents? My mum worked two jobs and brought up 4 kids on her own and still found time to read to us, do parents even do stuff like that now?

The other thing I don't get is that for the last 5 years there isn't a kid in the whole of Scotland who isn't in possession of a smart phone or a tablet or laptop ..... texting, twitter, Facebook all require a reasonable degree of literacy, the motivation to learn to read and write is absolutely massive for kids because if you don't you will be practically cut off from your mates .... how in such an environment can we have anything like a significant problem with kids over the age of 14 being unable to read or write, or lacking the motivation to learn?

As for the sciences and languages: I don't know what schools are like now, but the biggest criticism I have of the education I went through was that at no time did any of my science teachers try to explain why science was important and try to show how absolutely fascinating it could be ...... I'm willing to bet there's loads of folk out there who were bored to tears by science at school and who now lap up programmes like Horizon and find the subject enthralling. As for French .... I did that for two years and if once, just once, a French teacher had bothered to say that being able to speak the language might impress girls I would have paid a lot more attention:greengrin

As for arithmetic ....... no comment, I could have spent a thousand years at school and not passed an O level in the bloody subject.

[Glory Lurker]

Ha ha well I suppose there was actually two options but I didn't take the resigning one seriously [emoji6]

Naa seriously I get your point and I did say earlier that at least Swinney is not pulling the blame someone else card...

Always the same when a party has been in power for a good period, when things start to go wrong they do have to start carrying the can so I wonder if this will start to take its toll on their so far rather enduring popularity.

I think this does have the potential to affect their popularity. It will be interesting to see how they deal with it. I want that to happen for the good of the country's kids, not the SNP, I should point out!

[Glory Lurker]

I'm sure she'll get back to you once she's conducted press conference number 34564678 on why we need a second independence referendum.

God, that'll be a long wait given that they haven't had any of those press conferences yet.

[speedy_gonzales]

Ejucashun was moer gooder in ma day.

Seriously though, this appears to be a problem not just in Scotland but England too and Wales is miles behind both in these results from what I saw on the news.

Apologies for not being able to post the link properly, but

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157811

has a line graph titled "UK science score dips" and it seems to show Scotland fall away since 2012 in science compared to rUK.
I'm not sure what happened around then to cause this, different testing criteria, curriculum for excellence? Either way, quite worrying as we used to be quite strong in sciences??

[hibs0666]

Apologies for not being able to post the link properly, but

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38157811

has a line graph titled "UK science score dips" and it seems to show Scotland fall away since 2012 in science compared to rUK.
I'm not sure what happened around then to cause this, different testing criteria, curriculum for excellence? Either way, quite worrying as we used to be quite strong in sciences??

My daughter was in the first full CfE cohort. It was a mare to be honest - for example, the school did not fully understand the method of testing that would apply to certain subjects, and the teacher workload was apparently very heavy.

[steakbake]

CfE was a rush-job. They should have taken longer to implement it, but governments are always under pressure - what if we're not in, in 4/5 years time?

You do think that something as fundamental as education needs more consensus than directive policy. For what it is worth, CfE is a good system, it's just the way it has been brought in which is causing an issue.

The lack of standardised testing also is an issue which needs and is being addressed.

Equally, I'm tired of the outrage of politicians who offer plenty of criticism from the sidelines but if you ask them squarely "what will you do...", the sum total is along the lines that they'll do whatever the governing party doesn't.

Overall, many countries slipped in the PISA scores this year but it's the long-term decline which is a worry. Education needs more money. Money needs to come from taxpayers - we cannot have free and expanding health care and free education systems at FE and HE while at the same time as main parties promising not to tax people or being held to ransome in election campaigns for suggesting that a small amount more tax across the board would make a huge difference.

Council tax should be unfrozen and wholly replaced. Politicians need to be honest with people: if you want X, it will cost £ and we will have to pay for it. If you're not willing to pay more, then services cannot adapt or grow. It's as simple as that. Neither politician nor taxpayer really wants to have that conversation.

Other factors: - an explosion of people with additional support needs and services to maintain support for that in a mainstream environment. Additionally, discipline and maturity of kids being taught. I know that there are kids who start school with not even the fundamentals of reading or writing. I'm also aware that it is not uncommon for kids to start school who are not even toilet trained - something unthinkable 10,15,20 years ago but there is a woeful delegation and abrogation of responsibility onto the state for giving kids a decent start in life. It's a very troubling scene.

[#FromTheCapital]

CfE was a rush-job. They should have taken longer to implement it, but governments are always under pressure - what if we're not in, in 4/5 years time?

You do think that something as fundamental as education needs more consensus than directive policy. For what it is worth, CfE is a good system, it's just the way it has been brought in which is causing an issue.

The lack of standardised testing also is an issue which needs and is being addressed.

Equally, I'm tired of the outrage of politicians who offer plenty of criticism from the sidelines but if you ask them squarely "what will you do...", the sum total is along the lines that they'll do whatever the governing party doesn't.

Overall, many countries slipped in the PISA scores this year but it's the long-term decline which is a worry. Education needs more money. Money needs to come from taxpayers - we cannot have free and expanding health care and free education systems at FE and HE while at the same time as main parties promising not to tax people or being held to ransome in election campaigns for suggesting that a small amount more tax across the board would make a huge difference.

Council tax should be unfrozen and wholly replaced. Politicians need to be honest with people: if you want X, it will cost £ and we will have to pay for it. If you're not willing to pay more, then services cannot adapt or grow. It's as simple as that. Neither politician nor taxpayer really wants to have that conversation.

Other factors: - an explosion of people with additional support needs and services to maintain support for that in a mainstream environment. Additionally, discipline and maturity of kids being taught. I know that there are kids who start school with not even the fundamentals of reading or writing. I'm also aware that it is not uncommon for kids to start school who are not even toilet trained - something unthinkable 10,15,20 years ago but there is a woeful delegation and abrogation of responsibility onto the state for giving kids a decent start in life. It's a very troubling scene.

Excellent post. On healthcare; nobody in the UK has a clue what they're paying for it and there seems to be a perception that it's free. Politicians should collectively be telling us how much it all costs and how much more we need to pay to maintain the NHS. Instead they are scared to mention any increase in taxes as it means less chance of election or re-election.

[beensaidbefore]

CfE was a rush-job. They should have taken longer to implement it, but governments are always under pressure - what if we're not in, in 4/5 years time?

You do think that something as fundamental as education needs more consensus than directive policy. For what it is worth, CfE is a good system, it's just the way it has been brought in which is causing an issue.

The lack of standardised testing also is an issue which needs and is being addressed.

Equally, I'm tired of the outrage of politicians who offer plenty of criticism from the sidelines but if you ask them squarely "what will you do...", the sum total is along the lines that they'll do whatever the governing party doesn't.

Overall, many countries slipped in the PISA scores this year but it's the long-term decline which is a worry. Education needs more money. Money needs to come from taxpayers - we cannot have free and expanding health care and free education systems at FE and HE while at the same time as main parties promising not to tax people or being held to ransome in election campaigns for suggesting that a small amount more tax across the board would make a huge difference.

Council tax should be unfrozen and wholly replaced. Politicians need to be honest with people: if you want X, it will cost £ and we will have to pay for it. If you're not willing to pay more, then services cannot adapt or grow. It's as simple as that. Neither politician nor taxpayer really wants to have that conversation.

Other factors: - an explosion of people with additional support needs and services to maintain support for that in a mainstream environment. Additionally, discipline and maturity of kids being taught. I know that there are kids who start school with not even the fundamentals of reading or writing. I'm also aware that it is not uncommon for kids to start school who are not even toilet trained - something unthinkable 10,15,20 years ago but there is a woeful delegation and abrogation of responsibility onto the state for giving kids a decent start in life. It's a very troubling scene.


Well said. Think you have hit the nail on the head.

[hibs0666]

The way they collect their data is a joke anyway - part of the reason standardised testing is coming back.

Standardised testing is a political decision, and will simply re-infrorce our archaic approach to schooling that was developed during the industrial revolution. Ken Robinson provides a compelling argument for radical change. For me it's a question of when, not if...

https://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Excellent post. On healthcare; nobody in the UK has a clue what they're paying for it and there seems to be a perception that it's free. Politicians should collectively be telling us how much it all costs and how much more we need to pay to maintain the NHS. Instead they are scared to mention any increase in taxes as it means less chance of election or re-election.

Couldnt agree more with all of this and also steakbake's post.

But the figures do exist - nhs scotland costs around 14 billion every year to run. It is one third of the entire scottish budget - most definitely not free!!

Its difficult though, because is the state equipped to solve a problem like that outlined ny steakbake when at least sone ofbthe problem is people relying too much on the state.

[lucky]

The government should come out and take responsibility for falling standards and admit they got it wrong over the last decade. Then explain their plans for the future rather than just get Swinney to front up on the issue.

[#FromTheCapital]

Couldnt agree more with all of this and also steakbake's post.

But the figures do exist - nhs scotland costs around 14 billion every year to run. It is one third of the entire scottish budget - most definitely not free!!

Its difficult though, because is the state equipped to solve a problem like that outlined ny steakbake when at least sone ofbthe problem is people relying too much on the state.

Yes the broad figure exists, but nobody knows exactly how much of their tax contributions goes towards the NHS. In contrast, people in some other countries will have their health insurance and know to the penny what they're spending on healthcare. Our way of doing things has led to the perception that healthcare is free and if people were asked to pay extra for it then they'd likely kick up a fuss.

[allmodcons]

The government should come out and take responsibility for falling standards and admit they got it wrong over the last decade. Then explain their plans for the future rather than just get Swinney to front up on the issue.

What pish.

He is the Government Minister for Education ffs and is, therefore, speaking on behalf of the Government.

It is his job to "front up on the issue".

[speedy_gonzales]

Yes the broad figure exists, but nobody knows exactly how much of their tax contributions goes towards the NHS.
I don't have it to hand but I got a letter this year from either HMRC or another government agency detailing where my tax £ was spent, it has the total I'd been taxed then the breakdown both in figure and as a pie chart.
I'm fairly sure healthcare was there along side social care, pensions, education etc.

[Moulin Yarns]

I don't have it to hand but I got a letter this year from either HMRC or another government agency detailing where my tax £ was spent, it has the total I'd been taxed then the breakdown both in figure and as a pie chart.
I'm fairly sure healthcare was there along side social care, pensions, education etc.


Did it include a scotch pie chart showing the breakdown in Scotland ?

[#FromTheCapital]

I don't have it to hand but I got a letter this year from either HMRC or another government agency detailing where my tax £ was spent, it has the total I'd been taxed then the breakdown both in figure and as a pie chart.
I'm fairly sure healthcare was there along side social care, pensions, education etc.

Interesting. I definitely haven't ever received anything like this before or spoken to anyone else who has.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think most of the blame is on our modern society and I dont think its restricted to Scotland. I have a friend who is a teacher and he spends more than 80% of his time trying to teach kids basics that they should bring from home. If the kids arent taught the basics like manners, respect and other social skills at home, then the school system could be the best in the world and it still wouldnt work. Teachers can't teach kids that have no interest or motivation to learn.

[speedy_gonzales]

Interesting. I definitely haven't ever received anything like this before or spoken to anyone else who has.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/millions-start-receiving-break-down-of-how-their-tax-is-spent

Well as I'm PAYE I definitely received one, I also know plenty others that did. The letter was personalised so all the values were broken down in different pots, added together it equaled my total tax contributions.

[beensaidbefore]

The government should come out and take responsibility for falling standards and admit they got it wrong over the last decade. Then explain their plans for the future rather than just get Swinney to front up on the issue.

There is an argument that the problems have been developing for more than just a decade.

[beensaidbefore]

I think most of the blame is on our modern society and I dont think its restricted to Scotland. I have a friend who is a teacher and he spends more than 80% of his time trying to teach kids basics that they should bring from home. If the kids arent taught the basics like manners, respect and other social skills at home, then the school system could be the best in the world and it still wouldnt work. Teachers can't teach kids that have no interest or motivation to learn.

Lots of us know this is an issue, but we can't actually say parents are to blame as this involves singling people/families out, thus going against the treat everyone the same mantra.

I see it outside the school gates at lorne primary and wonder how some of the kids will ever manage. Some of the language and behaviour is not great. There is usually a gaggle of the schemiest mums going hanging about the gates behaving like extras from shameless, and these are the ones who make an effort to get the kids to school!

If mum and dad are complete radges then the likelihood of their kids being radge too is pretty high.

[steakbake]

I think most of the blame is on our modern society and I dont think its restricted to Scotland. I have a friend who is a teacher and he spends more than 80% of his time trying to teach kids basics that they should bring from home. If the kids arent taught the basics like manners, respect and other social skills at home, then the school system could be the best in the world and it still wouldnt work. Teachers can't teach kids that have no interest or motivation to learn.

I'd agree with that in many ways. I've worked in education and studied it to a fairly mind numbing degree.

One of the things that I very much believe and is backed up with data, is about human capital. More accurately, intergenerational transfer of human capital. In short, how families/parents/carers prepare kids with a set of tools, skills and values for engaging in their own development.

Very generally, middle to high income parents have no problems in doing this. It's usually what has made them comparatively 'affluent' in the first place and it transfers, more or less to their kids.

There is a tipping point where if there's too much affluence, there is complacency - which is why some incredibly wealthy countries underperform in education.

Anyway, these are the kind of folks who are very hard to pin down because they are constantly taking their kids from music class, to sports activities, to tutors, to this, that and the other. The kind that will read a bedtime story. That's not to say that doesn't happen in low income households, but its definitely not a common feature.

On the flip side, we've seen without a doubt an increase in poverty over the past 10-15 years. You have a large and growing group of people who themselves, have experienced very little transfer of human capital and skills themselves - what chance do they have to pass something on to their kids?

They don't have the disposable income, even if they had the inclination to, to send kids to those same kind of activities.

Small measures can make a big difference. When I was researching this, I happened to watch 'Searching for Sugarman'. There's a bit in it which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's where Sixto Rodriguez' daughter is talking about her upbringing.

Here was a guy who was a general labourer in Detroit, scratching a living via odd jobs: very poor in a very poor part of the US. But the time he spent with his kids was invariably taking them to free stuff - museums, art galleries and the like: on a mission. It's not uncommon to see that in action, particularly in migrant families where the previous generation has a skill, a drive or a determination to move somewhere (economic migration) and that can be more often than not, transferable to their kids.

It's no accident that, for example, kids of Indian and Chinese migrants generally outperform 'white' kids. It's not some conspiracy against the white man as the Daily Mail would have people believe. It is the transfer of human capital from generation to generation in action.

Kids from poor backgrounds do of course excel, but there is normally a factor there - a very supportive parent or relative, a particularly strong role model, a community group which gives them a push-along against the current which would normally pull them in a different direction.

There are others however, whose parents don't have the means, the experience or the 'capital' to bring about that same generational transformation.

So, in short, poverty is hereditary. As is wealth, to a greater or lesser degree.

Poverty has increased over the past 10-15 years - particularly child poverty. CPAG data - 3.9mil kids live in poverty in the UK. It rose by 0.5mil between 2011 and 2013. Last year alone, it rose by 0.25mil. By 2020, it is expected to increase by 50% overall. Man, what chance do people have?

That's why, for example, the NHS have programmes to teach parents to teach their kids how to brush their teeth - doing so has reduced dental problems in children under 5 dramatically. That's why they are also investing in basic literacy schemes for parents, or the adverts that encourage parents to read to kids - if the parents don't know, how the hell should the kids? It's partly why young offenders do get trips to zoos, outward bound programmes and the like - and necessarily so. The state is loco parentis for those kids and they would be failing in their duty to not provide that kind of enrichment, I suppose you'd call it.

Some may find that bizarre that such schemes exist yet they do for reasons of poverty reduction. However, they are often poorly funded, small scale pilots and easily pilloried in the media. "Look at what the government has spent money on now..." kind of stuff. Some have quite a quick impact - the tooth brushing project is a recent example which had results in 1-2 years, but some of the other poverty reduction projects need a long time for results to be seen.

It's about aiming an improvement in people's conditions as human beings. It's also about properly investing in education, teacher training, properly accepting that policies take time to work through.

And yes, when people get worked up about art galleries and museums shortening their hours or becoming a paid-for activity, why it is important to petition that, see it as the bad thing that it is and stop them being a preserve for those who already inclined to that in the first place.

Sorry for the long post/rant - but I suppose I should do something with my degree, even if it is a thought-post on the Holy Ground!

[RyeSloan]

Nice stuff Stake..always good to read thoughts from people that have a real understanding and knowledge of the subject.

It is interesting though as I recognise some of the stuff you mention like the tooth brushing thing. I still remember to this day when in primary school someone came in and explained how to brush your teeth...we all did it then took one of those tablets that turns plaque red and were shown how ineffective the first brushing efforts were. They then went through how to brush effectively.

That was literally decades ago and has stuck in my mind ever since so these things defo do work but some of them have been about for ages you wonder just why they were stopped or forgotten.

Seems to me that there is two issues here...money (in terms of the schools and the parents!) but also a lack of joined up thinking on some really basic levels on what could be low cost but effective measures. The Castro thread showed that, effective education and healthcare does not always have to be correlated with the sums spent.

[McD]

I'd agree with that in many ways. I've worked in education and studied it to a fairly mind numbing degree.

One of the things that I very much believe and is backed up with data, is about human capital. More accurately, intergenerational transfer of human capital. In short, how families/parents/carers prepare kids with a set of tools, skills and values for engaging in their own development.

Very generally, middle to high income parents have no problems in doing this. It's usually what has made them comparatively 'affluent' in the first place and it transfers, more or less to their kids.

There is a tipping point where if there's too much affluence, there is complacency - which is why some incredibly wealthy countries underperform in education.

Anyway, these are the kind of folks who are very hard to pin down because they are constantly taking their kids from music class, to sports activities, to tutors, to this, that and the other. The kind that will read a bedtime story. That's not to say that doesn't happen in low income households, but its definitely not a common feature.

On the flip side, we've seen without a doubt an increase in poverty over the past 10-15 years. You have a large and growing group of people who themselves, have experienced very little transfer of human capital and skills themselves - what chance do they have to pass something on to their kids?

They don't have the disposable income, even if they had the inclination to, to send kids to those same kind of activities.

Small measures can make a big difference. When I was researching this, I happened to watch 'Searching for Sugarman'. There's a bit in it which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's where Sixto Rodriguez' daughter is talking about her upbringing.

Here was a guy who was a general labourer in Detroit, scratching a living via odd jobs: very poor in a very poor part of the US. But the time he spent with his kids was invariably taking them to free stuff - museums, art galleries and the like: on a mission. It's not uncommon to see that in action, particularly in migrant families where the previous generation has a skill, a drive or a determination to move somewhere (economic migration) and that can be more often than not, transferable to their kids.

It's no accident that, for example, kids of Indian and Chinese migrants generally outperform 'white' kids. It's not some conspiracy against the white man as the Daily Mail would have people believe. It is the transfer of human capital from generation to generation in action.

Kids from poor backgrounds do of course excel, but there is normally a factor there - a very supportive parent or relative, a particularly strong role model, a community group which gives them a push-along against the current which would normally pull them in a different direction.

There are others however, whose parents don't have the means, the experience or the 'capital' to bring about that same generational transformation.

So, in short, poverty is hereditary. As is wealth, to a greater or lesser degree.

Poverty has increased over the past 10-15 years - particularly child poverty. CPAG data - 3.9mil kids live in poverty in the UK. It rose by 0.5mil between 2011 and 2013. Last year alone, it rose by 0.25mil. By 2020, it is expected to increase by 50% overall. Man, what chance do people have?

That's why, for example, the NHS have programmes to teach parents to teach their kids how to brush their teeth - doing so has reduced dental problems in children under 5 dramatically. That's why they are also investing in basic literacy schemes for parents, or the adverts that encourage parents to read to kids - if the parents don't know, how the hell should the kids? It's partly why young offenders do get trips to zoos, outward bound programmes and the like - and necessarily so. The state is loco parentis for those kids and they would be failing in their duty to not provide that kind of enrichment, I suppose you'd call it.

Some may find that bizarre that such schemes exist yet they do for reasons of poverty reduction. However, they are often poorly funded, small scale pilots and easily pilloried in the media. "Look at what the government has spent money on now..." kind of stuff. Some have quite a quick impact - the tooth brushing project is a recent example which had results in 1-2 years, but some of the other poverty reduction projects need a long time for results to be seen.

It's about aiming an improvement in people's conditions as human beings. It's also about properly investing in education, teacher training, properly accepting that policies take time to work through.

And yes, when people get worked up about art galleries and museums shortening their hours or becoming a paid-for activity, why it is important to petition that, see it as the bad thing that it is and stop them being a preserve for those who already inclined to that in the first place.

Sorry for the long post/rant - but I suppose I should do something with my degree, even if it is a thought-post on the Holy Ground!


please don't apologise mate, it's a brilliant post, particularly because it's articulate, full of facts, reason, and an explanation of things that hasn't resorted to either petty point scoring or whataboutery. Superb :top marks


basics such as education, healthcare, etc, shouldn't be a political football, and transcend individual parties. Perhaps these things would be better served by being overseen by a multi-party committee, which calls upon experts from the given area (education, healthcare, and so on) for expert knowledge when considering changes. This would stop each of us joe public having a go at the government about it (whether that's rightly or wrongly), and would stop governments being able to blame the last party in power, and hopefully mean that these areas are given the attention they and we deserve.

[steakbake]

Nice stuff Stake..always good to read thoughts from people that have a real understanding and knowledge of the subject.

It is interesting though as I recognise some of the stuff you mention like the tooth brushing thing. I still remember to this day when in primary school someone came in and explained how to brush your teeth...we all did it then took one of those tablets that turns plaque red and were shown how ineffective the first brushing efforts were. They then went through how to brush effectively.

That was literally decades ago and has stuck in my mind ever since so these things defo do work but some of them have been about for ages you wonder just why they were stopped or forgotten.

Seems to me that there is two issues here...money (in terms of the schools and the parents!) but also a lack of joined up thinking on some really basic levels on what could be low cost but effective measures. The Castro thread showed that, effective education and healthcare does not always have to be correlated with the sums spent.


Thanks. I wouldn't say I've a real understanding but I've spent a lot of time on it.

The tooth brushing thing: I remember that too. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that at some point there was a budget problem in either dentistry or community education or both etc. Where can we get £1m from to prop up the dental care system - well, the schools' programme is a nice to have. We've got into a habit of fixing the short term by damaging the things that work in the long term.

Agree on the cash issue: it doesn't need much. But when the gig has lasted through a huge sum to rush in the CfE, there's a problem. One of the most effective youth crime reduction and education policies was Chavez's youth music scheme - orchestras etc. You see it across the developing world, be it football camps, music initiatives etc - improve this generation and you improve the next kind of stuff. Cuba's thing was literacy - and quite a few more besides. Basic, basic things which are transformative to the individual and to the long term.

[HappyHanlon]

<Inherited a mess> <Change takes time, just be patient> <Labour would be doing even worse> <This is what "No" voters voted for, Project Fear is to blame> <wibble>

It'll be one of those ones I'd imagine.

Unpicking Labour's mess does take time.

Best party running Scotland at the moment. FACT!

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd agree with that in many ways. I've worked in education and studied it to a fairly mind numbing degree.

One of the things that I very much believe and is backed up with data, is about human capital. More accurately, intergenerational transfer of human capital. In short, how families/parents/carers prepare kids with a set of tools, skills and values for engaging in their own development.

Very generally, middle to high income parents have no problems in doing this. It's usually what has made them comparatively 'affluent' in the first place and it transfers, more or less to their kids.

There is a tipping point where if there's too much affluence, there is complacency - which is why some incredibly wealthy countries underperform in education.

Anyway, these are the kind of folks who are very hard to pin down because they are constantly taking their kids from music class, to sports activities, to tutors, to this, that and the other. The kind that will read a bedtime story. That's not to say that doesn't happen in low income households, but its definitely not a common feature.

On the flip side, we've seen without a doubt an increase in poverty over the past 10-15 years. You have a large and growing group of people who themselves, have experienced very little transfer of human capital and skills themselves - what chance do they have to pass something on to their kids?

They don't have the disposable income, even if they had the inclination to, to send kids to those same kind of activities.

Small measures can make a big difference. When I was researching this, I happened to watch 'Searching for Sugarman'. There's a bit in it which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's where Sixto Rodriguez' daughter is talking about her upbringing.

Here was a guy who was a general labourer in Detroit, scratching a living via odd jobs: very poor in a very poor part of the US. But the time he spent with his kids was invariably taking them to free stuff - museums, art galleries and the like: on a mission. It's not uncommon to see that in action, particularly in migrant families where the previous generation has a skill, a drive or a determination to move somewhere (economic migration) and that can be more often than not, transferable to their kids.

It's no accident that, for example, kids of Indian and Chinese migrants generally outperform 'white' kids. It's not some conspiracy against the white man as the Daily Mail would have people believe. It is the transfer of human capital from generation to generation in action.

Kids from poor backgrounds do of course excel, but there is normally a factor there - a very supportive parent or relative, a particularly strong role model, a community group which gives them a push-along against the current which would normally pull them in a different direction.

There are others however, whose parents don't have the means, the experience or the 'capital' to bring about that same generational transformation.

So, in short, poverty is hereditary. As is wealth, to a greater or lesser degree.

Poverty has increased over the past 10-15 years - particularly child poverty. CPAG data - 3.9mil kids live in poverty in the UK. It rose by 0.5mil between 2011 and 2013. Last year alone, it rose by 0.25mil. By 2020, it is expected to increase by 50% overall. Man, what chance do people have?

That's why, for example, the NHS have programmes to teach parents to teach their kids how to brush their teeth - doing so has reduced dental problems in children under 5 dramatically. That's why they are also investing in basic literacy schemes for parents, or the adverts that encourage parents to read to kids - if the parents don't know, how the hell should the kids? It's partly why young offenders do get trips to zoos, outward bound programmes and the like - and necessarily so. The state is loco parentis for those kids and they would be failing in their duty to not provide that kind of enrichment, I suppose you'd call it.

Some may find that bizarre that such schemes exist yet they do for reasons of poverty reduction. However, they are often poorly funded, small scale pilots and easily pilloried in the media. "Look at what the government has spent money on now..." kind of stuff. Some have quite a quick impact - the tooth brushing project is a recent example which had results in 1-2 years, but some of the other poverty reduction projects need a long time for results to be seen.

It's about aiming an improvement in people's conditions as human beings. It's also about properly investing in education, teacher training, properly accepting that policies take time to work through.

And yes, when people get worked up about art galleries and museums shortening their hours or becoming a paid-for activity, why it is important to petition that, see it as the bad thing that it is and stop them being a preserve for those who already inclined to that in the first place.

Sorry for the long post/rant - but I suppose I should do something with my degree, even if it is a thought-post on the Holy Ground!

Brilliant post, but didnt I just say that :greengrin

[Danderhall Hibs]

Are they still in denial about the teacher shortage?

[JimBHibees]

I'd agree with that in many ways. I've worked in education and studied it to a fairly mind numbing degree.

One of the things that I very much believe and is backed up with data, is about human capital. More accurately, intergenerational transfer of human capital. In short, how families/parents/carers prepare kids with a set of tools, skills and values for engaging in their own development.

Very generally, middle to high income parents have no problems in doing this. It's usually what has made them comparatively 'affluent' in the first place and it transfers, more or less to their kids.

There is a tipping point where if there's too much affluence, there is complacency - which is why some incredibly wealthy countries underperform in education.

Anyway, these are the kind of folks who are very hard to pin down because they are constantly taking their kids from music class, to sports activities, to tutors, to this, that and the other. The kind that will read a bedtime story. That's not to say that doesn't happen in low income households, but its definitely not a common feature.

On the flip side, we've seen without a doubt an increase in poverty over the past 10-15 years. You have a large and growing group of people who themselves, have experienced very little transfer of human capital and skills themselves - what chance do they have to pass something on to their kids?

They don't have the disposable income, even if they had the inclination to, to send kids to those same kind of activities.

Small measures can make a big difference. When I was researching this, I happened to watch 'Searching for Sugarman'. There's a bit in it which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's where Sixto Rodriguez' daughter is talking about her upbringing.

Here was a guy who was a general labourer in Detroit, scratching a living via odd jobs: very poor in a very poor part of the US. But the time he spent with his kids was invariably taking them to free stuff - museums, art galleries and the like: on a mission. It's not uncommon to see that in action, particularly in migrant families where the previous generation has a skill, a drive or a determination to move somewhere (economic migration) and that can be more often than not, transferable to their kids.

It's no accident that, for example, kids of Indian and Chinese migrants generally outperform 'white' kids. It's not some conspiracy against the white man as the Daily Mail would have people believe. It is the transfer of human capital from generation to generation in action.

Kids from poor backgrounds do of course excel, but there is normally a factor there - a very supportive parent or relative, a particularly strong role model, a community group which gives them a push-along against the current which would normally pull them in a different direction.

There are others however, whose parents don't have the means, the experience or the 'capital' to bring about that same generational transformation.

So, in short, poverty is hereditary. As is wealth, to a greater or lesser degree.

Poverty has increased over the past 10-15 years - particularly child poverty. CPAG data - 3.9mil kids live in poverty in the UK. It rose by 0.5mil between 2011 and 2013. Last year alone, it rose by 0.25mil. By 2020, it is expected to increase by 50% overall. Man, what chance do people have?

That's why, for example, the NHS have programmes to teach parents to teach their kids how to brush their teeth - doing so has reduced dental problems in children under 5 dramatically. That's why they are also investing in basic literacy schemes for parents, or the adverts that encourage parents to read to kids - if the parents don't know, how the hell should the kids? It's partly why young offenders do get trips to zoos, outward bound programmes and the like - and necessarily so. The state is loco parentis for those kids and they would be failing in their duty to not provide that kind of enrichment, I suppose you'd call it.

Some may find that bizarre that such schemes exist yet they do for reasons of poverty reduction. However, they are often poorly funded, small scale pilots and easily pilloried in the media. "Look at what the government has spent money on now..." kind of stuff. Some have quite a quick impact - the tooth brushing project is a recent example which had results in 1-2 years, but some of the other poverty reduction projects need a long time for results to be seen.

It's about aiming an improvement in people's conditions as human beings. It's also about properly investing in education, teacher training, properly accepting that policies take time to work through.

And yes, when people get worked up about art galleries and museums shortening their hours or becoming a paid-for activity, why it is important to petition that, see it as the bad thing that it is and stop them being a preserve for those who already inclined to that in the first place.

Sorry for the long post/rant - but I suppose I should do something with my degree, even if it is a thought-post on the Holy Ground!

Really interesting thanks for sharing that.

[IndieHibby]

This is a genuine question for steakbake, or indeed others:

What is good about CfE?

I have an interest in the subject and have only really heard negative things. Would really appreciate the time anyone can give to an answer.

Cheers

[hibsbollah]

I'd agree with that in many ways. I've worked in education and studied it to a fairly mind numbing degree.

One of the things that I very much believe and is backed up with data, is about human capital. More accurately, intergenerational transfer of human capital. In short, how families/parents/carers prepare kids with a set of tools, skills and values for engaging in their own development.

Very generally, middle to high income parents have no problems in doing this. It's usually what has made them comparatively 'affluent' in the first place and it transfers, more or less to their kids.

There is a tipping point where if there's too much affluence, there is complacency - which is why some incredibly wealthy countries underperform in education.

Anyway, these are the kind of folks who are very hard to pin down because they are constantly taking their kids from music class, to sports activities, to tutors, to this, that and the other. The kind that will read a bedtime story. That's not to say that doesn't happen in low income households, but its definitely not a common feature.

On the flip side, we've seen without a doubt an increase in poverty over the past 10-15 years. You have a large and growing group of people who themselves, have experienced very little transfer of human capital and skills themselves - what chance do they have to pass something on to their kids?

They don't have the disposable income, even if they had the inclination to, to send kids to those same kind of activities.

Small measures can make a big difference. When I was researching this, I happened to watch 'Searching for Sugarman'. There's a bit in it which is exactly what I'm talking about. It's where Sixto Rodriguez' daughter is talking about her upbringing.

Here was a guy who was a general labourer in Detroit, scratching a living via odd jobs: very poor in a very poor part of the US. But the time he spent with his kids was invariably taking them to free stuff - museums, art galleries and the like: on a mission. It's not uncommon to see that in action, particularly in migrant families where the previous generation has a skill, a drive or a determination to move somewhere (economic migration) and that can be more often than not, transferable to their kids.

It's no accident that, for example, kids of Indian and Chinese migrants generally outperform 'white' kids. It's not some conspiracy against the white man as the Daily Mail would have people believe. It is the transfer of human capital from generation to generation in action.

Kids from poor backgrounds do of course excel, but there is normally a factor there - a very supportive parent or relative, a particularly strong role model, a community group which gives them a push-along against the current which would normally pull them in a different direction.

There are others however, whose parents don't have the means, the experience or the 'capital' to bring about that same generational transformation.

So, in short, poverty is hereditary. As is wealth, to a greater or lesser degree.

Poverty has increased over the past 10-15 years - particularly child poverty. CPAG data - 3.9mil kids live in poverty in the UK. It rose by 0.5mil between 2011 and 2013. Last year alone, it rose by 0.25mil. By 2020, it is expected to increase by 50% overall. Man, what chance do people have?

That's why, for example, the NHS have programmes to teach parents to teach their kids how to brush their teeth - doing so has reduced dental problems in children under 5 dramatically. That's why they are also investing in basic literacy schemes for parents, or the adverts that encourage parents to read to kids - if the parents don't know, how the hell should the kids? It's partly why young offenders do get trips to zoos, outward bound programmes and the like - and necessarily so. The state is loco parentis for those kids and they would be failing in their duty to not provide that kind of enrichment, I suppose you'd call it.

Some may find that bizarre that such schemes exist yet they do for reasons of poverty reduction. However, they are often poorly funded, small scale pilots and easily pilloried in the media. "Look at what the government has spent money on now..." kind of stuff. Some have quite a quick impact - the tooth brushing project is a recent example which had results in 1-2 years, but some of the other poverty reduction projects need a long time for results to be seen.

It's about aiming an improvement in people's conditions as human beings. It's also about properly investing in education, teacher training, properly accepting that policies take time to work through.

And yes, when people get worked up about art galleries and museums shortening their hours or becoming a paid-for activity, why it is important to petition that, see it as the bad thing that it is and stop them being a preserve for those who already inclined to that in the first place.

Sorry for the long post/rant - but I suppose I should do something with my degree, even if it is a thought-post on the Holy Ground!

:top marksExcellent post and I think you're absolutely right about entrenched problems in low income households. Ive done similar work on worklessness in the past, and the depressing conclusion is that there is an intergenerational culture being passed down from father to child of not being in work, on incapacity benefits or whatever, and poverty reduction or retraining projects have little short term impact because the most basic skills are lacking, how to tie a tie, brush your teeth, get out of bed when the alarm clock goes. Making a kid go to a course learning Excel isn't going to make the kid more employable because his basic skills aren't there. As you put it, there has been no investment in human capital.

It seems in education, housing and employment everything is in place to make the poorer in society worse off and the divide is going to widen.

[beensaidbefore]

:top marksExcellent post and I think you're absolutely right about entrenched problems in low income households. Ive done similar work on worklessness in the past, and the depressing conclusion is that there is an intergenerational culture being passed down from father to child of not being in work, on incapacity benefits or whatever, and poverty reduction or retraining projects have little short term impact because the most basic skills are lacking, how to tie a tie, brush your teeth, get out of bed when the alarm clock goes. Making a kid go to a course learning Excel isn't going to make the kid more employable because his basic skills aren't there. As you put it, there has been no investment in human capital.

It seems in education, housing and employment everything is in place to make the poorer in society worse off and the divide is going to widen.

I agree with 99% of your post mate. The only bit I struggle with is the wording of the last sentence, as I feel there is a lot of work aimed at reducing the gap, such as the TOiL programme Port of Leith housing assoc run. A lot of focus on improving basic skills to get people 'work ready'.

Imo, positive change has to be a 2 way process involving not just individuals but communities too, so that people feel able to speak out and offer advice about parenting styles, antisocial behaviour etc etc. That has to come from the bottom up as well as top down.

[hibsbollah]

I agree with 99% of your post mate. The only bit I struggle with is the wording of the last sentence, as I feel there is a lot of work aimed at reducing the gap, such as the TOiL programme Port of Leith housing assoc run. A lot of focus on improving basic skills to get people 'work ready'.

Imo, positive change has to be a 2 way process involving not just individuals but communities too, so that people feel able to speak out and offer advice about parenting styles, antisocial behaviour etc etc. That has to come from the bottom up as well as top down.


To qualify that, my experience is mostly south of the border. There is a broader consensus for wealth redistribution and worklessness programmes up here, which is a good thing. Post Blair the UK Govts policy is not to have a policy.

[beensaidbefore]

To qualify that, my experience is mostly south of the border. There is a broader consensus for wealth redistribution and worklessness programmes up here, which is a good thing. Post Blair the UK Govts policy is not to have a policy.

I think you touch on an interesting point, and I think that is why there is such a concern that under the SNP things are not hugely different than down south, possibly even worse according to this recent report. I, amongst other, thought the differences in the education system here and local governmental control could have benefitted the education system better than it seems to have.

[IndieHibby]

Been a while, but anyone got an opinion/experience of CfE?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[steakbake]

Been a while, but anyone got an opinion/experience of CfE?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes. In short, very good idea and borrows ideas from the very best in the world. In practice, overly ambitious to roll it out on the timescale ScotGov used and now playing catch up. Any government doesn't have 7-13 years to phase in a programme. They can't assume that in advance.

[Colr]

I attended a failing primary school way back. Its failing were down to the teachers and nothing to do with government. They wrote working class kids off as soon as we walked through the gate and it was worse if you were a boy.

[The Green Goblin]

Ejucashun was moer gooder in ma day.

Seriously though, this appears to be a problem not just in Scotland but England too and Wales is miles behind both in these results from what I saw on the news.

The education system in general seems to be at a low ebb and I keep hearing that its to do with class sizes and kids from deprived areas failing to do well at school ..... but I remember vividly being part of primary and secondary school classes that were close on 30 pupils at times and I can match deprived upbringings with anybody, its hard to read a book when the leccy has been cut off ... again!

I have 3 brothers and we are all literate to a very good or reasonable standard in spite of these conditions, though I admit I cant count for toffee. So what is causing this problem? Are the teachers rubbish? Are the pupils more difficult for teachers to handle? Are there too many days off?

What I cant accept is blaming the education system for a pupil who, short of having a diagnosed, or undiagnosed, learning difficulty, has gone through at least 10 years of primary and secondary education and come out the other end unable to read or write ... surely to hell no amount of deprivation or class numbers or even the odd incompetent teacher can be to blame for that and what about the parents? My mum worked two jobs and brought up 4 kids on her own and still found time to read to us, do parents even do stuff like that now?

The other thing I don't get is that for the last 5 years there isn't a kid in the whole of Scotland who isn't in possession of a smart phone or a tablet or laptop ..... texting, twitter, Facebook all require a reasonable degree of literacy, the motivation to learn to read and write is absolutely massive for kids because if you don't you will be practically cut off from your mates .... how in such an environment can we have anything like a significant problem with kids over the age of 14 being unable to read or write, or lacking the motivation to learn?

As for the sciences and languages: I don't know what schools are like now, but the biggest criticism I have of the education I went through was that at no time did any of my science teachers try to explain why science was important and try to show how absolutely fascinating it could be ...... I'm willing to bet there's loads of folk out there who were bored to tears by science at school and who now lap up programmes like Horizon and find the subject enthralling. As for French .... I did that for two years and if once, just once, a French teacher had bothered to say that being able to speak the language might impress girls I would have paid a lot more attention:greengrin

As for arithmetic ....... no comment, I could have spent a thousand years at school and not passed an O level in the bloody subject.


I think the bit I have put in bold is actually a big part of the problem. These platforms themselves are not necessarily the issue, but the way people "communicate" on them and the way they create mild addictions to the devices on which they are accessed affects the brain and behaviour in a significant way. Before I get cabbages thrown at me from the sidelines, I am not absolving the government of all responsibility, but I am saying that the challenges facing teachers on a daily basis are becoming more serious and that this is definitely not a uniquely Scottish problem. I have been a teacher since 2002 (I taught in Moray and Edinburgh) and although I have taught overseas since 2006, I have still seen a dramatic and usually negative change in many (note, not all) of the children under my care during that time: their attention span, level of resilience in the face of challenges or questions, intellectual curiosity, ability to solve their own problems, willingness to work independently, engagement with new ideas, plagiarism and the difficult or even destructive social circumstances at home which I am increasingly required to understand and help them with etc. I had two 17 year old tutees who were put in dreadful situations by their neglectful parents this past year and this aspect of teachers' work needs to be taken into account too. This view is also held by many long term teaching colleagues. Whatever political party you support, I don't think "league tables" or other such ways of "measuring" school or teacher performance are worth a damn thing either.

[barcahibs]

Just to add my 2p worth.

I don't work directly in education, but I do sometimes work with children who are considered to be 'failing' in mainstream education for a variety of reasons.

In my experience the big issue that most of these kids have is lack of confidence - and that lack of confidence is attributable in many (obviously not all) cases to lack of attention/teaching/skills transfer from their parents/guardians.

Part of the work we do includes what we unofficially call an 'employability' aspect, trying to transfer really basic skills to the kids that will help them when they're looking for, or in the early days of, work. Things like teaching them how to shake someone's hand; how to dress appropriately for your workplace; what sort of language you use in front of an employer or at an interview; the importance of turning up on time and working til your shift is done; how to have a conversation with your workmates...

It seemed amazing to me at first that you have to teach people that it's important to turn up on time for work - and that you can't just go home because you're in a bad mood or bored. Or why you shouldn't swear at your boss (at least til you know them :P); Why it's important to look someone in the eye when you talk to them; why you can't just quit immediately if things aren't going well... but if no-one has ever taught you that before then how would you know?

Another skill we try to pass on to the students we work with is the simple ability to carry on a conversation with other people face to face. Again it's incredible how quickly these sort of skills are disappearing. Kids that spend all their time communicating online or via text have forgotten how to just sit and chat to each other - and how to build teams and work together face to face.

It's simple, simple stuff, but the difference in confidence - and the improvement in beahviour - it creates is undeniable.

Some parents aren't teaching these skills, and if they won't (or can't) then we need to step in or the cycle continues.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just to add my 2p worth.

I don't work directly in education, but I do sometimes work with children who are considered to be 'failing' in mainstream education for a variety of reasons.

In my experience the big issue that most of these kids have is lack of confidence - and that lack of confidence is attributable in many (obviously not all) cases to lack of attention/teaching/skills transfer from their parents/guardians.

Part of the work we do includes what we unofficially call an 'employability' aspect, trying to transfer really basic skills to the kids that will help them when they're looking for, or in the early days of, work. Things like teaching them how to shake someone's hand; how to dress appropriately for your workplace; what sort of language you use in front of an employer or at an interview; the importance of turning up on time and working til your shift is done; how to have a conversation with your workmates...

It seemed amazing to me at first that you have to teach people that it's important to turn up on time for work - and that you can't just go home because you're in a bad mood or bored. Or why you shouldn't swear at your boss (at least til you know them :P); Why it's important to look someone in the eye when you talk to them; why you can't just quit immediately if things aren't going well... but if no-one has ever taught you that before then how would you know?

Another skill we try to pass on to the students we work with is the simple ability to carry on a conversation with other people face to face. Again it's incredible how quickly these sort of skills are disappearing. Kids that spend all their time communicating online or via text have forgotten how to just sit and chat to each other - and how to build teams and work together face to face.

It's simple, simple stuff, but the difference in confidence - and the improvement in beahviour - it creates is undeniable.

Some parents aren't teaching these skills, and if they won't (or can't) then we need to step in or the cycle continues.

My best mate is a teacher at an inner city school in Berlin and confirms all you say in your excellent post. He spends most of his time trying to teach a large minority of the kids basic human skills that these kids are lacking and as a result all the kids suffer.

I'm not sure if this is a new phenomena because I remember similar kids in my school back in the 70's who had similar issues, but it's certainly increased in volume in recent years. As I mentioned in an earlier post, an essential part of our education system is that kids need to learn that rules and regulations need to be a adhered to otherwise the system breaks down and our teachers become nannies rather than educators.

[SneakersO'Toole]

Last few posts on this thread have been really interesting and really sharpen my opinion on the matter.

You can have the best education system in the world but if the parents dont take a pro-active and dedicated interest in their child's education then full potential will not be realised.

Education begins at home.

[McD]

Last few posts on this thread have been really interesting and really sharpen my opinion on the matter.

You can have the best education system in the world but if the parents dont take a pro-active and dedicated interest in their child's education then full potential will not be realised.

Education begins at home.


Think theres a lot of truth in that mate :aok:

[G B Young]

Not happy reading on the back of yesterday's story on falling literacy levels among Scottish schoolchildren:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/head-quitting-after-33-years-hits-out-at-education-cuts-1-4441754

[Betty Boop]

Not happy reading on the back of yesterday's story on falling literacy levels among Scottish schoolchildren:

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/our-region/edinburgh/head-quitting-after-33-years-hits-out-at-education-cuts-1-4441754

School janitors and cleaners next to be slashed.

http://nen.press/2017/05/02/one-janitor-one-school-and-keep-our-cleaners-unison-edinburgh-in-pre-election-appeal/

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Think theres a lot of truth in that mate :aok:

But that would involve politicians actually having to say that, whixh they will never do. Instead they will pretend we can legislate that away, and absolve feckless parents from the responsibility to raise their children well.

[JeMeSouviens]

But that would involve politicians actually having to say that, whixh they will never do. Instead they will pretend we can legislate that away, and absolve feckless parents from the responsibility to raise their children well.

Or alternatively not just give up on/actively choose to disregard the children who through no fault of their own weren't dealt the luckiest parental hand? Following that Tory-style path perpetuates the problem by rearing another generation of ill-educated parents.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Or alternatively not just give up on/actively choose to disregard the children who through no fault of their own weren't dealt the luckiest parental hand? Following that Tory-style path perpetuates the problem by rearing another generation of ill-educated parents.

Im not suggesting disregarding them. I just dont see how the government can make a big difference, short of removing them which would be draconian.

[Hibby Bairn]

I attended a failing primary school way back. Its failing were down to the teachers and nothing to do with government. They wrote working class kids off as soon as we walked through the gate and it was worse if you were a boy.

Golem Effect v Pygmalion Effect (latter often experienced in Independent Schools and higher set classes in comprehensive education)

[liscious_hibs]

A smell a Looney Yoonie...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[marinello59]

A smell a Looney Yoonie...

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

.
If you don't want to debate don't bother posting here. Simple.

[OsloHibs]

Just been looking at the latest media about the standard of writing for children in school. Does not make good reading. Shocking actually.

[SanFranHibs]

Just been looking at the latest media about the standard of writing for children in school. Does not make good reading. Shocking actually.


:greengrin

[G B Young]

Nicola Sturgeon made a big play of asking to be judged on her party's education record. So far the judgement from within the profession is pretty damning:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/teachers-lack-skills-to-teach-basic-maths-and-literacy-1-4442668

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Nicola Sturgeon made a big play of asking to be judged on her party's education record. So far the judgement from within the profession is pretty damning:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/teachers-lack-skills-to-teach-basic-maths-and-literacy-1-4442668

Its definitely an area of policy that is unravelling fast.

But im sure it is somebody else fault.

Interesting to note how much time the Scottish Govt has give education in the Scottish Parliament, versus its other priority areas...

[Slavers]

It's a crying shame what the SNP government has done to education standards in Scotland that were once known for being the best in the world

[Mon Dieu4]

It's a crying shame what the SNP government has done to education standards in Scotland that were once known for being the best in the world

They weren't the best in the world when I was at school and the SNP were nowhere near in charge then

[marinello59]

They weren't the best in the world when I was at school and the SNP were nowhere near in charge then

Maybe not but the SNP under Sturgeon are poor on education.

[Mon Dieu4]

Maybe not but the SNP under Sturgeon are poor on education.

They sure are, many factors play into it in my opinion though, austerity, governmental decisions, the schools themselves, parents, technology etc, just don't like seeing things used as a witch hunt like there is one specific reason for it

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe not but the SNP under Sturgeon are poor on education.

Poor on education, poor on the causes of education :wink:

[OsloHibs]

They sure are, many factors play into it in my opinion though, austerity, governmental decisions, the schools themselves, parents, technology etc, just don't like seeing things used as a witch hunt like there is one specific reason for it

It's no witch hunt, it simply isn't good enough that standards are failing the children in Scottish schools. It's horrifying that children are leaving school with a very poor level of the basics in 2017.

[speedy_gonzales]

They sure are, many factors play into it in my opinion though, austerity, governmental decisions, the schools themselves, parents, technology etc, just don't like seeing things used as a witch hunt like there is one specific reason for it
Let's not forget curriculum for excellence.
I believe the concept was so that every child left school with some form of qualification, unfortunately that hasn't happened with the first raft of kids that came out the system.
At the time of implementation many teachers were given very little guidance on how to roll out the new curriculum. So much so that when I asked my daughters teacher way back in primary 5/6 what the major differences are and what the outcomes would be I got a shrug off the shoulders. This was a teacher with over 25 years experience, he said it was like being asked to educate using a new toolbox with plans that were sealed in an envelope!

[G B Young]

Let's not forget curriculum for excellence.
I believe the concept was so that every child left school with some form of qualification, unfortunately that hasn't happened with the first raft of kids that came out the system.
At the time of implementation many teachers were given very little guidance on how to roll out the new curriculum. So much so that when I asked my daughters teacher way back in primary 5/6 what the major differences are and what the outcomes would be I got a shrug off the shoulders. This was a teacher with over 25 years experience, he said it was like being asked to educate using a new toolbox with plans that were sealed in an envelope!

It certainly isn't working out well so far with latest figures showing that more than half of 13/14 year-olds are unable to write well and overall standards in reading, maths and science continuing to slide. Unfortunately that means a good many more children will be leaving school having failed to benefit from the curriculum for excellence before the SNP's latest 'recommendations' have any effect.

It was good to see Nicola Sturgeon finally accept at the weekend how poor the SNP's record on education has been. Two years ago she asked to be judged on this and so far her report card doesn't read well.

[ronaldo7]

Interesting piece on the false claims by Davidson, on the functional illiteracy of Scots schoolchildren

https://t.co/W9cC73SknR