Project Brave

[Brightside]

Any thoughts on the new SFA blueprint? Not officially published yet but the highlights are...

Reducing the current number of 29 academies and 2,300 players.
Re-introducing a reserve league, with a minimum and maximum number of overage players in each team, to replace the current Under-20 Development League.
Switching academy football up to under-16 level to the summer, with the shorter Futsal game adopted in the winter.
Increasing the use of development loans to lower league clubs for players up to 21 years.


All of that makes good sense...but where we will have a big problem is the reduction in Elite Pro Youth Academies to 8 clubs. So only 8 SFA clubs (or organisations) will attract the elite players in the country. How does that help smaller teams trying to bring through good young players which end up keeping those clubs afloat with future transfers.

I'm all for reducing the number of Pro Youth "teams" but the way forward is to create Regional Academies like Forth Valley. Then every year the best players that come through are available on a draft system for the clubs.

All we will get with this proposal is Rangers and Celtic getting in all the best youth talent in Scotland....then nothing changes.

[macca70]

The top clubs with academies should have a competitive team in the lower leagues, that would give some fringe players exposure to competitive games rather than loaning players out. We could be bringing through talent quicker if we had a B team playing in 2nd Division

It happens in Spain, dunno how successful it is.

The big change that needs to happen in Scottish football is restructure the leagues so we only play each other twice (once at home, once away)

[JimBHibees]

Any thoughts on the new SFA blueprint? Not officially published yet but the highlights are...

Reducing the current number of 29 academies and 2,300 players.
Re-introducing a reserve league, with a minimum and maximum number of overage players in each team, to replace the current Under-20 Development League.
Switching academy football up to under-16 level to the summer, with the shorter Futsal game adopted in the winter.
Increasing the use of development loans to lower league clubs for players up to 21 years.


All of that makes good sense...but where we will have a big problem is the reduction in Elite Pro Youth Academies to 8 clubs. So only 8 SFA clubs (or organisations) will attract the elite players in the country. How does that help smaller teams trying to bring through good young players which end up keeping those clubs afloat with future transfers.

I'm all for reducing the number of Pro Youth "teams" but the way forward is to create Regional Academies like Forth Valley. Then every year the best players that come through are available on a draft system for the clubs.

All we will get with this proposal is Rangers and Celtic getting in all the best youth talent in Scotland....then nothing changes.

Is the problem that lack of implementation and the barriers already within the system for example reticence by clubs and associations across the country who are only thinking of their little feifdoms? This plan just seems very much like the last plan or the one before or the one before thats not to say that isnt a good idea.

Celtic seem to have a very good plan in that similar to the development schools alot of the kids are schooled at the same school and get training there and also at Lennoxtown?

[Brightside]

Is the problem that lack of implementation and the barriers already within the system for example reticence by clubs and associations across the country who are only thinking of their little feifdoms? This plan just seems very much like the last plan or the one before or the one before thats not to say that isnt a good idea.

Celtic seem to have a very good plan in that similar to the development schools alot of the kids are schooled at the same school and get training there and also at Lennoxtown?

Correct - its the clubs that are creating the issue in Scotland. Only Celtic have the facilities to do what some of the English clubs do. Scotland is a small country and the clubs need to be forced into line with the vision otherwise nothing will ever change.

[PatHead]

Is the problem that lack of implementation and the barriers already within the system for example reticence by clubs and associations across the country who are only thinking of their little feifdoms? This plan just seems very much like the last plan or the one before or the one before thats not to say that isnt a good idea.

Celtic seem to have a very good plan in that similar to the development schools alot of the kids are schooled at the same school and get training there and also at Lennoxtown?
Dundee United introduced the school thing when levein was in charge.

[bingo70]

Dundee United introduced the school thing when levein was in charge.

I don't know much about that, is it similar to hibs and hearts players going to The elite academy schools like Broughton? (Not sure if that's the correct name for the school but hopefully you know what I mean)

[Brightside]

Dundee United introduced the school thing when levein was in charge.

Dundee Utd are a strong shout for not being in the 8 Elite Academies - funnily enough they are not happy with the plans.

[Brightside]

I don't know much about that, is it similar to hibs and hearts players going to The elite academy schools like Broughton? (Not sure if that's the correct name for the school but hopefully you know what I mean)

SFA Performance School. I've not heard if that will change with the new blue print. They are separate to any Club - School connections.

[Benny Brazil]

Still fails to address any problems in grassroots youth football which needs investment in facilities to get kids playing more often

[bingo70]

Still fails to address any problems in grassroots youth football which needs investment in facilities to get kids playing more often

I've seen a few tweets about the costs of the coaching badges here compared to other countries, addressing that along with the lack of indoor facilities would seem an obvious starting point.

Probably not complicated enough though.

[JimBHibees]

Dundee United introduced the school thing when levein was in charge.

Hadnt heard about that. Obviously the huge resources Celtic have will have an impact. Huge commitment for kids of certain ages to move school and area I am assuming. Wonder what the drop out numbers are and the ages they target.

Article about it here from 2012. Apologies for the source. :greengrin

http://www.celticfc.net/news/2039?item=2039

More recent article

https://www.eastdunbarton.gov.uk/news/st-ninian%E2%80%99s-star-pupils-celebrate-success-celtic-fc-and-prestigious-education-awards

[Brightside]

I've seen a few tweets about the costs of the coaching badges here compared to other countries, addressing that along with the lack of indoor facilities would seem an obvious starting point.

Probably not complicated enough though.

I agree. We have a massive lack of coaches (trained) in the Scotland. New astros are appearing every week...but a move to summer football and more coaches available is the first building block for me.

[Ozyhibby]

If I could suggest on way to improve would be to train as many coaches as possible.
The next coaching course I'm due to do is costing about £400 plus a week off work. After that I think it jumps to £1500.
I've seen this year when we brought in a fully qualified coach(paid for through fundraising) in, the difference it can make to the boys game.
Train as many coaches as possible and watch the difference it makes to the standard of player we produce.
Every time us or England get knocked out a tournament, the graphic showing how few coaches we have compared to Spain, Germany and now Iceland gets shared on social media. It's time we did something about it.
Cut the cost of those courses down to zero and have every coach in the country educated in how to play the game properly.


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[Brightside]

If I could suggest on way to improve would be to train as many coaches as possible.
The next coaching course I'm due to do is costing about £400 plus a week off work. After that I think it jumps to £1500.
I've seen this year when we brought in a fully qualified coach(paid for through fundraising) in, the difference it can make to the boys game.
Train as many coaches as possible and watch the difference it makes to the standard of player we produce.
Every time us or England get knocked out a tournament, the graphic showing how few coaches we have compared to Spain, Germany and now Iceland gets shared on social media. It's time we did something about it.
Cut the cost of those courses down to zero and have every coach in the country educated in how to play the game properly.


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Its why most coaches stop at Level 2 or C.....the majority simply cannot afford to take a week off work. Reduce the costs and get it on at weekends or nights.

[matty_f]

If I could suggest on way to improve would be to train as many coaches as possible.
The next coaching course I'm due to do is costing about £400 plus a week off work. After that I think it jumps to £1500.
I've seen this year when we brought in a fully qualified coach(paid for through fundraising) in, the difference it can make to the boys game.
Train as many coaches as possible and watch the difference it makes to the standard of player we produce.
Every time us or England get knocked out a tournament, the graphic showing how few coaches we have compared to Spain, Germany and now Iceland. It's time we did something about it.
Cut the cost of those courses down to zero and have every coach in the country educated in how to play the game properly.


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Totally agree - I'm all for having three schools/centres of excellence (whatever title they want to give them) - one in the West, one in the East, and one North. Let the clubs sign players and send them there for additional coaching but at the same time use the facilities to train coaches - a lot of the game's coaches come from ex-players, by the time a player retires he's in his mid-30s usually.

If we took apprenticeships or graduate scheme coaches and trained them to the highest level but then had a program for continued development and let them coach the youth players, by the time they are the age of the ex-players, they could have a good 15 years worth of coaching experience under their belts.

[HibbySpurs]

I've seen a few tweets about the costs of the coaching badges here compared to other countries, addressing that along with the lack of indoor facilities would seem an obvious starting point.

Probably not complicated enough though.

Part of the problem with coaching badges (especially the early ones) is not so much the cost but more the fact that you pay your money, turn up for the session and the hey presto you've got a coaching badge!!!!!!

Total nonsense, there are guys out there who can barely control a football who have youth coaching badges and it's a nonsense, how can someone coach someone without being able to adequately demonstrate the exercise being undertaken?

We still have a culture where little Johnny wants to play for the local team but he's not certain a game so what does his Dad do who's never played football at any sort of recognized level? He toddles off to the SFA,, gets a couple of badges and because the local team is desperate for coaches they think he's the bees-knees and voila little Johnny gets a game every week.... Trust me in 2016 this is still going on at boys level in our country and it needs to be stopped, sadly the SFA or whoever are only too happy to accept the £60 from joe punter in return for a certificate.....

I'm not suggesting you have to have been a good player to coach, far from it but I do think you have to be able to do the thing you are teaching these kids yourself and there are plenty coaches out there who can't!

You wouldn't go to a golf pro if you didn't think he (or she) could actually play the game to a decent level themselves now would you?

[bingo70]

Part of the problem with coaching badges (especially the early ones) is not so much the cost but more the fact that you pay your money, turn up for the session and the hey presto you've got a coaching badge!!!!!!

Total nonsense, there are guys out there who can barely control a football who have youth coaching badges and it's a nonsense, how can someone coach someone without being able to adequately demonstrate the exercise being undertaken?

We still have a culture where little Johnny wants to play for the local team but he's not certain a game so what does his Dad do who's never played football at any sort of recognized level? He toddles off to the SFA,, gets a couple of badges and because the local team is desperate for coaches they think he's the bees-knees and voila little Johnny gets a game every week.... Trust me in 2016 this is still going on at boys level in our country and it needs to be stopped, sadly the SFA or whoever are only too happy to accept the £60 from joe punter in return for a certificate.....

I'm not suggesting you have to have been a good player to coach, far from it but I do think you have to be able to do the thing you are teaching these kids yourself and there are plenty coaches out there who can't!

You wouldn't go to a golf pro if you didn't think he (or she) could actually play the game to a decent level themselves now would you?

Sort of agree but the problem can't be the wee guys like Jonny and their dad that just want their laddie to play football, I just think that there needs to be a youth structure that finds a place for people like that.

I've got no experience in this field at all, well not since playing at that level 20 odd years ago but it seems to me now that there's an expectation that almost all good young players should be, or could be, making it to train with a professional club when the reality is that can't be the case.

Don't know how practical it is but I'd like to see a cap on the number of youngsters clubs can sign. This is also probably contradictory to everything the successful Dutch and German clubs do and have told us to do but it doesn't seem right to me that clubs can just Hoover all these players up and then spit them out when they realise they're of no use to them.

[Haymaker]

Its why most coaches stop at Level 2 or C.....the majority simply cannot afford to take a week off work. Reduce the costs and get it on at weekends or nights.

Cost and time for little return. It's difficult to earn a living in football coaching in the UK, it's why I emigrated.

[ancient hibee]

Clubs have in recent years had far too many kids and have relied on lots of volunteers of varying quality to help out.Would it not be much better to have fewer kids coached by fully qualified coaches paid a decent wage by the club.

[H18 SFR]

What are the 8 likely teams for the academies?

[Ozyhibby]

I think that the clubs get a grant from the Scottish govt for each player on their books which is why we have 29 academies. It's a nice little earner for the clubs especially if you have volunteer coaches. Using the same amount of cash on highly qualified coaches in 8 academies seems to be the plan. I think.


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[HibbySpurs]

I think that the clubs get a grant from the Scottish govt for each player on their books which is why we have 29 academies. It's a nice little earner for the clubs especially if you have volunteer coaches. Fox using the same amount of cash on highly qualified coaches in 8 academies seems to be the plan. I think.


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I'd actually think that makes sense and may not be a bad idea. The smaller clubs regularly benefit from the loan system and "blooding" the upcoming players get a better team than they'd normally have and of course the bigger clubs get the benefit of young players getting the experience without comprising their current first XI?

As to who the academy clubs will be that's an unknown but you'd naturally assume it would be the biggest clubs with the best facilities and most resources?

Celtic
Rangers
Hibs
Hearts
Aberdeen
Dundee Utd
Inverness
An other

Just off the top of my head but I really don't know.

[Benny Brazil]

Part of the problem with coaching badges (especially the early ones) is not so much the cost but more the fact that you pay your money, turn up for the session and the hey presto you've got a coaching badge!!!!!!

Total nonsense, there are guys out there who can barely control a football who have youth coaching badges and it's a nonsense, how can someone coach someone without being able to adequately demonstrate the exercise being undertaken?

We still have a culture where little Johnny wants to play for the local team but he's not certain a game so what does his Dad do who's never played football at any sort of recognized level? He toddles off to the SFA,, gets a couple of badges and because the local team is desperate for coaches they think he's the bees-knees and voila little Johnny gets a game every week.... Trust me in 2016 this is still going on at boys level in our country and it needs to be stopped, sadly the SFA or whoever are only too happy to accept the £60 from joe punter in return for a certificate.....

I'm not suggesting you have to have been a good player to coach, far from it but I do think you have to be able to do the thing you are teaching these kids yourself and there are plenty coaches out there who can't!

You wouldn't go to a golf pro if you didn't think he (or she) could actually play the game to a decent level themselves now would you?


I think you have a fair point. I recently did my first badge on the Childrens Pathway and thought the course was great, the guy running it knew what he was doing and we had to get involved by taking part in the exercises. But I could have quite easily blended in to the crowd and not really have done much and I would still come away with my badge - I wanted to learn as much as possible so made sure I was fully involved and asking questions etc.
But it doesn't test whether I could actually run a training session - I know it wouldn't be feasible (cost and time etc) but there should be some sort of assessment of coaches to ensure they are capable of actually coaching kids properly.
It's frightening watching some youth teams and the antics of the coaches - my son plays for a well established Edinburgh youth team at 07's and whilst the Head Coach is great and really knows what he is doing and the coaching sessions are really well planned - however the coach who takes my sons team on a Sunday is only focused on winning no matter what - and he constantly criticises the boys. Totally the wrong approach at that age - and he has his coaching badges.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Any thoughts on the new SFA blueprint? Not officially published yet but the highlights are...

Reducing the current number of 29 academies and 2,300 players.
Re-introducing a reserve league, with a minimum and maximum number of overage players in each team, to replace the current Under-20 Development League.
Switching academy football up to under-16 level to the summer, with the shorter Futsal game adopted in the winter.
Increasing the use of development loans to lower league clubs for players up to 21 years.


All of that makes good sense...but where we will have a big problem is the reduction in Elite Pro Youth Academies to 8 clubs. So only 8 SFA clubs (or organisations) will attract the elite players in the country. How does that help smaller teams trying to bring through good young players which end up keeping those clubs afloat with future transfers.

I'm all for reducing the number of Pro Youth "teams" but the way forward is to create Regional Academies like Forth Valley. Then every year the best players that come through are available on a draft system for the clubs.

All we will get with this proposal is Rangers and Celtic getting in all the best youth talent in Scotland....then nothing changes.

Imo (non-football grounded view) the scrapping of the reserve league (keeping teammates together versus farming out) set us back as a team - and who pulled the rug....?

[Ozyhibby]

I think you have a fair point. I recently did my first badge on the Childrens Pathway and thought the course was great, the guy running it knew what he was doing and we had to get involved by taking part in the exercises. But I could have quite easily blended in to the crowd and not really have done much and I would still come away with my badge - I wanted to learn as much as possible so made sure I was fully involved and asking questions etc.
But it doesn't test whether I could actually run a training session - I know it wouldn't be feasible (cost and time etc) but there should be some sort of assessment of coaches to ensure they are capable of actually coaching kids properly.
It's frightening watching some youth teams and the antics of the coaches - my son plays for a well established Edinburgh youth team at 07's and whilst the Head Coach is great and really knows what he is doing and the coaching sessions are really well planned - however the coach who takes my sons team on a Sunday is only focused on winning no matter what - and he constantly criticises the boys. Totally the wrong approach at that age - and he has his coaching badges.

If he is constantly criticising the boys then it doesn't matter how many coaching badges he has, he's not a good coach.
ONLY being focused on winning is also not the right approach but teaching the boys how to win is. Football is a competitive game which is why we keep score. You can't tell the boys it's not important or they will act accordingly. They need to strive to win every game.
I think we have become confused in this country with trying to make the game uncompetitive when really it's only the coaches who needed to get less competitive.


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[Brightside]

I'd actually think that makes sense and may not be a bad idea. The smaller clubs regularly benefit from the loan system and "blooding" the upcoming players get a better team than they'd normally have and of course the bigger clubs get the benefit of young players getting the experience without comprising their current first XI?

As to who the academy clubs will be that's an unknown but you'd naturally assume it would be the biggest clubs with the best facilities and most resources?

Celtic
Rangers
Hibs
Hearts
Aberdeen
Dundee Utd
Inverness
An other

Just off the top of my head but I really don't know.

Forth Valley will be one. Its a great set up for that area.

Hamilton will deffo be on it. Their Chairman is heavily involved. Dundee Utd think they will miss out. St Mirren have a Gold rated setup also.


"We all know Celtic , Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen will be in the tent. They were all on the working group for starters. As was Les Gray of Hamilton and it’s hard to imagine he won’t have made a case for a set of criteria he knows his club can meet.

Which leaves two places if it’s true that eight is the cut-off. It’s hard to believe the SFA-backed Forth Valley Academy – Falkirk, Stenhousemuir and East Stirlingshire, a brilliant regional set-up with a track record of success – won’t be part of it.

So where does that leave Dundee United , a team with arguably the best record in the country for producing players over the past decade?
Motherwell , who have the best set of Under-15s in the country and also a list of recent internationals on their academy walk of fame?
St Mirren, the only club outside of the Old Firm who currently hold Gold status for their set-up? Killie, regularly one of only three top-flight teams giving their Under-21s first-team experience? "

[Ozyhibby]

Forth Valley will be one. Its a great set up for that area.

Hamilton will deffo be on it. Their Chairman is heavily involved. Dundee Utd think they will miss out. St Mirren have a Gold rated setup also.


"We all know Celtic , Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen will be in the tent. They were all on the working group for starters. As was Les Gray of Hamilton and it’s hard to imagine he won’t have made a case for a set of criteria he knows his club can meet.

Which leaves two places if it’s true that eight is the cut-off. It’s hard to believe the SFA-backed Forth Valley Academy – Falkirk, Stenhousemuir and East Stirlingshire, a brilliant regional set-up with a track record of success – won’t be part of it.

So where does that leave Dundee United , a team with arguably the best record in the country for producing players over the past decade?
Motherwell , who have the best set of Under-15s in the country and also a list of recent internationals on their academy walk of fame?
St Mirren, the only club outside of the Old Firm who currently hold Gold status for their set-up? Killie, regularly one of only three top-flight teams giving their Under-21s first-team experience? "

A smart move would be for Motherwell and Hamilton to share a set up.
The Dundee clubs could probably do the same.


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[Brightside]

A smart move would be for Motherwell and Hamilton to share a set up.
The Dundee clubs could probably do the same.


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Would mean no teams in the North though? I know Dundee isn't really North but if they both clubbed in with Inverness etc they should be able to create a decent setup.

[Ozyhibby]

Would mean no teams in the North though? I know Dundee isn't really North but if they both clubbed in with Inverness etc they should be able to create a decent setup.

St. Mirren could lose out due to proximity of Sevco despite their success.


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[JimBHibees]

Its why most coaches stop at Level 2 or C.....the majority simply cannot afford to take a week off work. Reduce the costs and get it on at weekends or nights.

Agree about the cost and time there also seems to be very few C courses. I completed the youth level courses a few years back (1.3 or whatever it is called) and genuinely considered doing the Course however the cost £300 and the dates they all seemed to be on game days for my youth team meant I would rather coach the team. I see there was an international c course which could be done in a week at Oriam but assuming geared to foreign coaches.

[HibbySpurs]

Forth Valley will be one. Its a great set up for that area.

Hamilton will deffo be on it. Their Chairman is heavily involved. Dundee Utd think they will miss out. St Mirren have a Gold rated setup also.


"We all know Celtic , Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen will be in the tent. They were all on the working group for starters. As was Les Gray of Hamilton and it’s hard to imagine he won’t have made a case for a set of criteria he knows his club can meet.

Which leaves two places if it’s true that eight is the cut-off. It’s hard to believe the SFA-backed Forth Valley Academy – Falkirk, Stenhousemuir and East Stirlingshire, a brilliant regional set-up with a track record of success – won’t be part of it.

So where does that leave Dundee United , a team with arguably the best record in the country for producing players over the past decade?
Motherwell , who have the best set of Under-15s in the country and also a list of recent internationals on their academy walk of fame?
St Mirren, the only club outside of the Old Firm who currently hold Gold status for their set-up? Killie, regularly one of only three top-flight teams giving their Under-21s first-team experience? "

Yeah, Forth Valley will defo be one, it's a great idea bringing those 1 medium sized and 2 smaller clubs together for this to "pool resources". Agree re Hamilton as well as I hadn't really thought of the set up in the terms you describe...

So: Forth Valley, Hibs, Hamilton, Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen + 1.

To me for some sort of geographical balance surely it has to be Dundee/Tayside area? As that's the only major population center that wouldn't be covered by the other 7 and Fife could be covered to the north from the Tayside area and to the south from the Forth Valley/Edinburgh clubs?

I'm aware that may all sound far to much like common sense for the SFA though :greengrin:greengrin

[bingo70]

Yeah, Forth Valley will defo be one, it's a great idea bringing those 1 medium sized and 2 smaller clubs together for this to "pool resources". Agree re Hamilton as well as I hadn't really thought of the set up in the terms you describe...

So: Forth Valley, Hibs, Hamilton, Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen + 1.

To me for some sort of geographical balance surely it has to be Dundee/Tayside area? As that's the only major population center that wouldn't be covered by the other 7 and Fife could be covered to the north from the Tayside area and to the south from the Forth Valley/Edinburgh clubs?

I'm aware that may all sound far to much like common sense for the SFA though :greengrin:greengrin

So if Dundee (the city, not the club) had an academy and a good young player came through, who would he sign for? Same applies to forth valley I suppose?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm a bit confused

[JimBHibees]

So if Dundee (the city, not the club) had an academy and a good young player came through, who would he sign for? Same applies to forth valley I suppose?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm a bit confused

Not a stupid question at all there is real potential for their to be huge conflicts of interest if regional hubs are set up. Which teams coaches are involved, what are the rules re signing for a club etc ?

Ideally it should be the SFA maybe after taking advice from foreign experts in this area deciding the criteria and not the clubs themselves as this only leads to self interest. Some teams appear to be involved while others arent how is that in a any way fair.

[JimBHibees]

Forth Valley will be one. Its a great set up for that area.

Hamilton will deffo be on it. Their Chairman is heavily involved. Dundee Utd think they will miss out. St Mirren have a Gold rated setup also.


"We all know Celtic , Rangers, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen will be in the tent. They were all on the working group for starters. As was Les Gray of Hamilton and it’s hard to imagine he won’t have made a case for a set of criteria he knows his club can meet.

Which leaves two places if it’s true that eight is the cut-off. It’s hard to believe the SFA-backed Forth Valley Academy – Falkirk, Stenhousemuir and East Stirlingshire, a brilliant regional set-up with a track record of success – won’t be part of it.

So where does that leave Dundee United , a team with arguably the best record in the country for producing players over the past decade?
Motherwell , who have the best set of Under-15s in the country and also a list of recent internationals on their academy walk of fame?
St Mirren, the only club outside of the Old Firm who currently hold Gold status for their set-up? Killie, regularly one of only three top-flight teams giving their Under-21s first-team experience? "

The bits in bold are hugely worrying are they not. So Hamilton are involved they can set the criteria to suit them. Surely the decisions on who is in and who is out need to be deemed to be fairer than that. Not taking about Hamilton in particular more the principle.

[Brightside]

So if Dundee (the city, not the club) had an academy and a good young player came through, who would he sign for? Same applies to forth valley I suppose?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, I'm a bit confused

Its why I'm against club academies in scotland. Regionalise them. Make them huge centres of excellence like Oriam. Only the very best players get into and stay in these academies. Kids at 16 are then drafted into Prem teams that then loan them out for further development with Lower League teams.

That doesnt stop kids still getting signed from youth clubs at 16 etc... but it does stop Celtic and Rangers just using finance to continue to dominate young talent.

No children should be signed to any club until they are 16yo.

[JimBHibees]

Its why I'm against club academies in scotland. Regionalise them. Make them huge centres of excellence like Oriam. Only the very best players get into and stay in these academies. Kids at 16 are then drafted into Prem teams that then loan them out for further development with Lower League teams.

That doesnt stop kids still getting signed from youth clubs at 16 etc... but it does stop Celtic and Rangers just using finance to continue to dominate young talent.

No children should be signed to any club until they are 16yo.

Totally agree will never happen though especially when you have hugely wealthy English teams hoovering up kids also. Self interest will prevail.

[bingo70]

Its why I'm against club academies in scotland. Regionalise them. Make them huge centres of excellence like Oriam. Only the very best players get into and stay in these academies. Kids at 16 are then drafted into Prem teams that then loan them out for further development with Lower League teams.

That doesnt stop kids still getting signed from youth clubs at 16 etc... but it does stop Celtic and Rangers just using finance to continue to dominate young talent.

No children should be signed to any club until they are 16yo.

Certainly an interesting idea.

Do you know if any other countries use this model?

[HibbySpurs]

Totally agree will never happen though especially when you have hugely wealthy English teams hoovering up kids also. Self interest will prevail.

I agree that sadly self interest will always prevail in the current and as looks likely the proposed set up.

How is that managed though? Some sort of draft system as someone mentioned earlier?

I think the general idea being floated is actually a good one, with less academies meaning better coaching for those being developed but it does mea that the status quo in terms of league football in Scotland will be maintained in that the "Big 5" will continue to get the best talent with the "Big 2" from those 5 most likely getting the cream of even that small pool.

I have believed for a long time however that one of Scottish football's major problems (tin hat on here) is that there are far to many clubs claiming to be "professional" in Scotland... To me our population and financial base for football can realistically only support two leagues, all of whose clubs need to be full time. How you then arrange those leagues is anyone's guess as trying to avoid the playing teams 4 times a season is nigh on impossible with the current levels in ability between say Celtic and Peterhead (6th in League 1 at present) if we were to say two leagues of 12, 14 or 16?

Our league set up is a mess and until that's addressed then Scottish football will continue to decline.

[Brightside]

Certainly an interesting idea.

Do you know if any other countries use this model?

None that i know off. Cash is king unfortunately.

A draft system is used in other sports though.

[bingo70]

Just been reading about Kevin Thomsons academy and felt he made some good points. ( I won't post the link as it was in the record)

Anyway, got me wondering if any current or ex pros are being consulted? When I say ex-pros I mean recently retired, not people like Craig Levein.

Anyone know of any players involved in this process?

[JimBHibees]

Just been reading about Kevin Thomsons academy and felt he made some good points. ( I won't post the link as it was in the record)

Anyway, got me wondering if any current or ex pros are being consulted? When I say ex-pros I mean recently retired, not people like Craig Levein.

Anyone know of any players involved in this process?

What sort of things was he saying?

[ancient hibee]

I think the Big 2 hoovering up the cream of Scottish youngsters is over stated.You could count on the fingers of one hand the number either club has brought through in the last 20 years.The kids might go there but they don't get into the first team.

[bingo70]

I think the Big 2 hoovering up the cream of Scottish youngsters is over stated.You could count on the fingers of one hand the number either club has brought through in the last 20 years.The kids might go there but they don't get into the first team.

They then fall out the game, I think that's the point.

Fwiw I don't think Rangers and Celtic are any worse than the others, I think all clubs hoover up too many youngsters to try and ensure they don't miss out on the next big thing.

In answer to the person that asked about Thomson. The point he was making was that youngsters now just want to be the next ronaldo or messi and they practice all the fancy stuff but can't do the basics like control a ball. He was coaching an under 16s team and they had all got to that level without doing basic passing and controlling drills (read the story a while ago, it might have been a younger age group actually). His academy is based on kids having a ball the whole session and no interest in his groups forming a team or anything as all about learning the skills rather than winning games.

[ancient hibee]

They then fall out the game, I think that's the point.

Fwiw I don't think Rangers and Celtic are any worse than the others, I think all clubs hoover up too many youngsters to try and ensure they don't miss out on the next big thing.

In answer to the person that asked about Thomson. The point he was making was that youngsters now just want to be the next ronaldo or messi and they practice all the fancy stuff but can't do the basics like control a ball. He was coaching an under 16s team and they had all got to that level without doing basic passing and controlling drills (read the story a while ago, it might have been a younger age group actually). His academy is based on kids having a ball the whole session and no interest in his groups forming a team or anything as all about learning the skills rather than winning games.

This is the point I was making on this or the other thread.There has to be concentration on basic skills long before winning games.Once the skills have been mastered then look at team structure and how to fit into it.There's no point in calling someone a wingback if he can't cross a ball accurately on the run without thinking about it.

[Ozyhibby]

There are a lot of Celtic academy graduates playing in the SPFL just now.


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[barcahibs]

Return of a proper reserve league is a definite improvement, suspicious of the rest though.

I think the question we should be asking throughout this process is how does it benefit Hibs?

If the proposals hinder Hibs in any way in order to pursue nebulous concepts for third parties - like boosting the "Scottish game" (code for the Old Firm) or improving the national team (irrelevant to us as a club) - then we should be steering well clear.

[WeeRussell]

If he is constantly criticising the boys then it doesn't matter how many coaching badges he has, he's not a good coach.
ONLY being focused on winning is also not the right approach but teaching the boys how to win is. Football is a competitive game which is why we keep score. You can't tell the boys it's not important or they will act accordingly. They need to strive to win every game.
I think we have become confused in this country with trying to make the game uncompetitive when really it's only the coaches who needed to get less competitive.


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Completely agree with the part in bold. I've seen medals/trophies taken out of kids 5 aside tournaments in place of 'round robin' games with no finals etc to take away the winner and losers element. I remember playing in the same tournaments as a youngster and that's what made them exciting - who wants to play sport with no competitive edge... at any age! Mastermind 'coaches' will tell you that they do things like this in Spain.. as if Spaniards aren't taught to be winners!!

I don't mean it in an old-fashioned 'toughen' the kids up way or anything... but developing in sports requires winning goals and achievements to go after. Imagine playing a game with your pals in the park when you were young and not bothering to keep the score :confused: