Nationalism is the answer. Now what's the question?

[hibs0666]

Whether it be wee Scotland, bigger England, massive Russia and humongous USA the flight to nationalism is a common theme across deeply-divided and disillusioned electorates. We are living in a world where the population of nations is increasingly putting the blame for societal ills firmly at the door of others that are not like us. I really hope that division and distrust are not the over-riding themes that shape the legacy of this particular generation, but I can't say that I'm very confident.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Whether it be wee Scotland, bigger England, massive Russia and humongous USA the flight to nationalism is a common theme across deeply-divided and disillusioned electorates. We are living in a world where the population of nations is increasingly putting the blame for societal ills firmly at the door of others that are not like us. I really hope that a legacy of division and distrust are not the over-riding themes that shape the legacy of this particular generation, but I can't say that I'm very confident.

Good question. But if we have nation states, then by definition we have a nationalist system. If you then say to population of one of the wealthier countries, that they should get poorer so that the very rich at the top can get richer, and so that those in less successful /wealthy countries can also start to get richer by taking your job, you are going to have a problem.

Whether it happens this way or not, people believe it is. In this context, it is only natural that people return to their most comfortable bastion, i.e. their country, nationality etc.

So to answer your question - how do we stop other countries stealing our livelihoods and threatening our way of life?

These arent my own views, but then im not a former steel worker in the misldwest US who has lostnhis home because my industry has been gutted.

[Pretty Boy]

The question is probably along the lines of what is the simplistic answer when decades of failed politics creates a society that values profit and materialism more than people, community and pride?

Ultimately Jose didn't put Ol' boy Hank out of a job. The quest for shareholders to get more bang for their buck did.

[hibs0666]

Good question. But if we have nation states, then by definition we have a nationalist system. If you then say to population of one of the wealthier countries, that they should get poorer so that the very rich at the top can get richer, and so that those in less successful /wealthy countries can also start to get richer by taking your job, you are going to have a problem.

Whether it happens this way or not, people believe it is. In this context, it is only natural that people return to their most comfortable bastion, i.e. their country, nationality etc.

So to answer your question - how do we stop other countries stealing our livelihoods and threatening our way of life?

These arent my own views, but then im not a former steel worker in the misldwest US who has lost his home because my industry has been gutted.

Traditionally, nation states have stopped other countries stealing livelihoods and threatening their way of life by a variety of methods including protectionism and going to war. It wouldn't surprise me i the slightest if both came back into fashion big-style.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Traditionally, nation states have stopped other countries stealing livelihoods and threatening their way of life by a variety of methods including protectionism and going to war. It wouldn't surprise me i the slightest if both came back into fashion big-style.

Agree.

Michael Moore wrote a piece, and apparently trump told senior ford and gm execs that if they shut down and moved to mexico, he would put huge tarrifs on their cars.

[pontius pilate]

Agree.

Michael Moore wrote a piece, and apparently trump told senior ford and gm execs that if they shut down and moved to mexico, he would put huge tarrifs on their cars.



I believe he is planning on putting a 35% tarriff on imports from mexico and a huge 45% on imports from china. rightly or wrongly if he puts these massive tarriffs on he is looking at construction projects using american made items which in turn should up production. However we know how hard that can be to implement but he is a business man first so lets see how potus in waiting achieves most of his goals.

[HibbyDave]

The question is: What is "Rule Britannia" about?

[High-On-Hibs]

Scottish Nationalism could have been internationalism. We could have been the wee country to bridge the gap between dividing nations across Europe. As it is, we're now stuck with a form of divisive far right British Nationalism that will certainly do Scotland no favours whatsoever.

I was furious about the Scottish Referendum result at the time and i'm still furious now.

[Hibrandenburg]

What won the day in both the Scottish independence referendum and the brexit vote?

[JeMeSouviens]

What won the day in both the Scottish independence referendum and the brexit vote?

There were many contributory factors but a key component of both winning votes were old folk and their rose tinted nostalgia for a (homogeneous) Britain that never was.

[lucky]

Scottish Nationalism could have been internationalism. We could have been the wee country to bridge the gap between dividing nations across Europe. As it is, we're now stuck with a form of divisive far right British Nationalism that will certainly do Scotland no favours whatsoever.

I was furious about the Scottish Referendum result at the time and i'm still furious now.

Both referendums were democratic decisions of the people. Your furious because you were on the losing side in both referendums. It seems strange that Scottish Nationalists argue that the rUK are taking Scotland out of Europe because we voted differently but the same people are arguing that against the result of the independence referendum when Scotland voted to remain as part of the UK. Politics is frustrating and gets lots of us disappointed when our party or point of view does not win the day but getting furious will never win the debate. But I did chuckle that you believe an independent Scotland would bridge the gap in Europe. If we go independent we will not be relevant on the world stage. No small countries are. That does not mean that Scotland couldn't be a successful independent country its just we wouldn't be major players.

[lucky]

17639

[Mibbes Aye]

There were many contributory factors but a key component of both winning votes were old folk and their rose tinted nostalgia for a (homogeneous) Britain that never was.

That's really poor and a bit distasteful - old people not really sure what they were doing, is that what you're reduced to?

More importantly I don't think you have a shred of evidence to back up your view of why people voted the way they did.

Sorry JMS, you sounds bitter and while you might not be 60+ it doesn't mean your vote counts for more than those who are. Why would you think that? Just cause they disagreed with you?

As it stands there were plenty young people who voted No. Why didn't you win those votes as I'm assuming you're not accusing them of nostalgia or perhaps dementia?

[Mibbes Aye]

Scottish Nationalism could have been internationalism. We could have been the wee country to bridge the gap between dividing nations across Europe. As it is, we're now stuck with a form of divisive far right British Nationalism that will certainly do Scotland no favours whatsoever.

I was furious about the Scottish Referendum result at the time and i'm still furious now.

Yeah.

If internationalism meant dividing people up depending on lines on a map.

Lines on a map that had been drawn by whoever was rich and powerful, often centuries before.

And then those lines were given a cultural construct over time, that meant people took on some sort of assumed identity, based on those lines.

And adopted behaviours and beliefs based on that and exhibited them.

Then nationalism would look exactly like internationalism.

Oh, hold on........

[Glory Lurker]

And yet it is the pro indy SNP and the Greens fighting to keep Scotland in the supranational single market while the unionist parties drop any pretension of support for an internationalist European ideal like a mouldy sausage.

[JeMeSouviens]

That's really poor and a bit distasteful - old people not really sure what they were doing, is that what you're reduced to?

Um, I didn't say that, or even imply it. :confused:



More importantly I don't think you have a shred of evidence to back up your view of why people voted the way they did.

Sorry JMS, you sounds bitter and while you might not be 60+ it doesn't mean your vote counts for more than those who are. Why would you think that? Just cause they disagreed with you?


I didn't say that either, or think it? :confused: What are you havering about? :confused:



As it stands there were plenty young people who voted No. Why didn't you win those votes as I'm assuming you're not accusing them of nostalgia or perhaps dementia?

And that's just plain offensive. :rolleyes:

[lord bunberry]

17639
That's pathetic. I can see the Labour Party in Scotland coming out for independence in the near future. I wonder what your stance will be then.

[Mibbes Aye]

Um, I didn't say that, or even imply it. :confused:



I didn't say that either, or think it? :confused: What are you havering about? :confused:



And that's just plain offensive. :rolleyes:

Sounds like you are struggling to back up your sweeping generalisation of older people JMS.

[JeMeSouviens]

Sounds like you are struggling to back up your sweeping generalisation of older people JMS.

More like you're making things up and ladling on a large dose of pontificating condescension for good measure.

[hibs0666]

There were many contributory factors but a key component of both winning votes were old folk and their rose tinted nostalgia for a (homogeneous) Britain that never was.

You might as well blame people coming from outside Scotland as well. Perhaps because of their wider view of the world, voters from other parts of the UK and from outside the UK voted heavily to reject independence. Scottish voters were 53/47 in favour, perhaps due to a more insular view of the world.

[One Day Soon]

17639


That is the most nailed on truth about contemporary politics I have seen in a long while.

[One Day Soon]

And yet it is the pro indy SNP and the Greens fighting to keep Scotland in the supranational single market while the unionist parties drop any pretension of support for an internationalist European ideal like a mouldy sausage.


The SNP has two ways of doing politics.

One is banging on about independence.

The other is focusing on process. Any process.

The preference is to hold out independence as a cure all for everything. When that can't be done so easily - for example when you've lost a Referendum but won an election and have a massive membership to keep happy or distracted - they go for process.

The SNP's 'commitment' to the internationalist European ideal is all process. It's the perfect distraction.

The 'commitment' didn't matter so much when being out of the EU was going to be a price worth paying for independence in the IndyRef.

And the 'commitment' clearly doesn't apply to the SNP MSPs and MPs who voted to Leave...

[snooky]

17639

You could substitute the first photo for Cameron and then it might make some sense.
All three being experts at playing the fear card.

[Peevemor]

You might as well blame people coming from outside Scotland as well. Perhaps because of their wider view of the world, voters from other parts of the UK and from outside the UK voted heavily to reject independence. Scottish voters were 53/47 in favour, perhaps due to a more insular view of the world.

I wasn't aware of that. Do you think this would still be the case if Brexit proceeds? Is it possible that those from outside the UK were influenced by the scaremongering about iScotland not gaining entry to the EU?

Also, was it not the much-maligned SNP who opened the voting to the people of Scotland (and not just Scottish people).

[hibs0666]

I wasn't aware of that. Do you think this would still be the case if Brexit proceeds? Is it possible that those from outside the UK were influenced by the scaremongering about iScotland not gaining entry to the EU?

Also, was it not the much-maligned SNP who opened the voting to the people of Scotland (and not just Scottish people).

Who knows what factor influenced this group, but they clearly had limited desire to live behind yet another border.

It's interesting that you talk about scaremongering. Did the SNP every get a definitive statement that it would be able to fast-track EU entry?

[Peevemor]

Who knows what factor influenced this group, but they clearly had limited desire to live behind yet another border.

Which could be happening now anyway.


It's interesting that you talk about scaremongering. Did the SNP every get a definitive statement that it would be able to fast-track EU entry?

I don't think so. Did Westminster ever get one to say that it was impossible?

[One Day Soon]

You could substitute the first photo for Cameron and then it might make some sense.
All three being experts at playing the fear card.


You're trying to construct a different card.

One with politicians who play the fear card. Sturgeon could go on that given the card the SNP are presently trying to play on the EU.

Next up - Corbyn, Sanders and Miliband as Sect Leaders incapable of constructing a coalition of support to win power.

Still: Sturgeon, Trump and Farage as nationalists who blame others for their problems is a perfect fit.

[hibs0666]

Which could be happening now anyway.



I don't think so. Did Westminster ever get one to say that it was impossible?

Nope, but I would not represent either the UK or SNP positions as 'misinformation'. Both views were opinions that lacked any solid underpinning. However, I would view the SNP position as being way too optimistic given all of the complexities involved.

[JeMeSouviens]

Which could be happening now anyway.



I don't think so. Did Westminster ever get one to say that it was impossible?

They never asked. The EU said it would only provide an answer if a member state (ie. the UK) sought clarification. Since the UK wouldn't do that, we never found out.

[RyeSloan]

They never asked. The EU said it would only provide an answer if a member state (ie. the UK) sought clarification. Since the UK wouldn't do that, we never found out.

Seems to me the EU could have put their minds to work on developing some framework around such an event if they wanted to but in reality they didn't so gave a an answer that ensured they wouldn't be asked the question.

[lucky]

That's pathetic. I can see the Labour Party in Scotland coming out for independence in the near future. I wonder what your stance will be then.

I doubt Labour will be but even if they do why would I change my mind on independence?

[Hibrandenburg]

17639

What tosh. Trump and Farage used fear and racism to get their votes, that's not something you can accuse Sturgeon of. Ridiculous meme that's straight out of the gutter.

[Smartie]

Am I allowed to be deeply suspicious of Nationalism yet still believe that Scotland should be an independent nation?

Because I think that sums up my position.

[Hibrandenburg]

Am I allowed to be deeply suspicious of Nationalism yet still believe that Scotland should be an independent nation?

Because I think that sums up my position.

Yepp, because accusing the SNP of being xenophobic because they've got the word nationalist in their name is stupid and intentionally misleading. Labour are a socialist party who had many of their members vote for brexit because they wanted more power for the national government and people born here, does that make them National Socialists? Of course it doesn't.

[beensaidbefore]

They never asked. The EU said it would only provide an answer if a member state (ie. the UK) sought clarification. Since the UK wouldn't do that, we never found out.

Cos they were being twats about it imo.

A bit like an abusive partner saying your nothing without me, you never manage alone, you'll have no friends, and don't think you'll be getting a penny from me.
😁

[beensaidbefore]

Seems to me the EU could have put their minds to work on developing some framework around such an event if they wanted to but in reality they didn't so gave a an answer that ensured they wouldn't be asked the question.

A lot of pressure from London and Madrid no doubt influenced things.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

What tosh. Trump and Farage used fear and racism to get their votes, that's not something you can accuse Sturgeon of. Ridiculous meme that's straight out of the gutter.

I accept that, and agree.

But there is no doubt that the snp use the convenient other (westminster, and the subtext of english tories) as a scapegoat, catch all for all evils.

Its the same tactic, just using a different target.

Plus there have been, and still are members of the snp who blame 'the english' in a way that trump and farage would have been proud of.

[Hibrandenburg]

I accept that, and agree.

But there is no doubt that the snp use the convenient other (westminster, and the subtext of english tories) as a scapegoat, catch all for all evils.

Its the same tactic, just using a different target.

Plus there have been, and still are members of the snp who blame 'the english' in a way that trump and farage would have been proud of.

There's no comparison between the messages sent out by UKIP/the Republican Party and that what the SNP preach. The SNP having a go at Westminster is fair game in my opinion, what's not is xenophobic rants at foreigners, homophobic attacks and religious bigotry. There's a world of difference and trying to draw parallels along those lines is ridiculous and misleading.

[Glory Lurker]

The SNP has two ways of doing politics.

One is banging on about independence.

The other is focusing on process. Any process.

The preference is to hold out independence as a cure all for everything. When that can't be done so easily - for example when you've lost a Referendum but won an election and have a massive membership to keep happy or distracted - they go for process.

The SNP's 'commitment' to the internationalist European ideal is all process. It's the perfect distraction.

The 'commitment' didn't matter so much when being out of the EU was going to be a price worth paying for independence in the IndyRef.

And the 'commitment' clearly doesn't apply to the SNP MSPs and MPs who voted to Leave...

I mentioned the Greens, too.....

The SNP's commitment to Europe has been central to its ethos for about 30 years now, so I can't see how that can be doubted. IF you accept the indy Sco would have needed to regain EU membership, the point is that the SNP wanted to be in, not run away from it like almost everyone else at the moment.

As well, what I was commenting on was the attempt to secure EEA status within the UK. That's what SNP is currently looking for. If it's all just process, May can just call the bluff.

[ronaldo7]

17639


Oh well, let's have a look at these then.

17654

Brit Nat's

17655

Ex Socialist, now a Brit Nat.

17656

Dickhead.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

There's no comparison between the messages sent out by UKIP/the Republican Party and that what the SNP preach. The SNP having a go at Westminster is fair game in my opinion, what's not is xenophobic rants at foreigners, homophobic attacks and religious bigotry. There's a world of difference and trying to draw parallels along those lines is ridiculous and misleading.

Fair enough!

Its not a comparison i made, and i agree it is not as overt or nasty. But one could argue its more subtle and subliminal.

Blaming westminster might be fine for you, but equally trump having a go at illegal immigrants (not just immigrants as i inderstood it) might be equally ok.

Personally i think the snp do blame westminster far too often for thimgs that they have moee than enough control over to elaffect. But i wouldnt put them in the same bracket as trump. Farage i dont think is racist, but i do think he is an arse.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

There's no comparison between the messages sent out by UKIP/the Republican Party and that what the SNP preach. The SNP having a go at Westminster is fair game in my opinion, what's not is xenophobic rants at foreigners, homophobic attacks and religious bigotry. There's a world of difference and trying to draw parallels along those lines is ridiculous and misleading.

It's too simplistic to put Farage and Trump in the same bracket, divide Trump by an order of magnitude then maybe. Can't despute Farage is an arse, but I don't see him as a racist.

To address the original post, I'd say the question is "what is the inevitable result of an increasing the proportion of GDP being generated in large cities and leads to a lot of people in any given country not benefiting from the trend?"

We need to recognise that a lot of people have not benefited from globalisation and it's wrong for self righteous urbanites to dismiss them just because they have personally gained from it.

[lord bunberry]

Fair enough!

Its not a comparison i made, and i agree it is not as overt or nasty. But one could argue its more subtle and subliminal.

Blaming westminster might be fine for you, but equally trump having a go at illegal immigrants (not just immigrants as i inderstood it) might be equally ok.

Personally i think the snp do blame westminster far too often for thimgs that they have moee than enough control over to elaffect. But i wouldnt put them in the same bracket as trump. Farage i dont think is racist, but i do think he is an arse.
I don't think it's subtle or subliminal. It's a direct attempt to make Nicola Sturgeon appear to be the same as the other 2.

[Peevemor]

I don't think it's subtle or subliminal. It's a direct attempt to make Nicola Sturgeon appear to be the same as the other 2.

:agree:

[One Day Soon]

I don't think it's subtle or subliminal. It's a direct attempt to make Nicola Sturgeon appear to be the same as the other 2.


These things only ever work with a wider audience if they are either humorous - which this isn't particularly - or if the reader feels they reflect some grain of truth...

[lord bunberry]

These things only ever work with a wider audience if they are either humorous - which this isn't particularly - or if the reader feels they reflect some grain of truth...
Comparing someone to a man that's famous for being racist, homophobic, sexist along with countless other unpleasant traits never works. Not everyone is going to agree with what Nicola Sturgeon has to say, but she or the party she represents can never be compared to those 2.

[Bishop Hibee]

17639

Tosh. The SNP are a centrist party due to the broad make up of their membership of which I am not one. Sturgeon has said she wishes Scotland could take more Syrian refugees. Hardly something Trump or Farage would agree with.

If Labour could unite with a proper socialist agenda then you might find they'd be closer to the Tories in the polls. Instead the party is racked by infighting and attacking the SNP rather than putting forward radically different policies to differentiate themselves from them.

[Northernhibee]

"Who has been the best of speaking the language of the disenfranchised working class?"

[One Day Soon]

"Who has been the best of speaking the language of the disenfranchised working class?"


I think that is missing the point. The feeling of being disenfranchised goes well beyond the working class.

No-one is telling us - across the classes - a story that makes sense of what is going on on how we move forward. So the snake oil salesmen are able to move in and sell us pure bull5hit instead.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think that is missing the point. The feeling of being disenfranchised goes well beyond the working class.

No-one is telling us - across the classes - a story that makes sense of what is going on on how we move forward. So the snake oil salesmen are able to move in and sell us pure bull5hit instead.

This got me thinking what an election manifesto from the left would look like if they started exaggerating their policies as much as the right! Maybe it would look something like this:

1. Free health care for everyone, you can even choose your own disease.

2. Each family is entitled to 2 places in nursery, per child.

3. Workers will have to work on bank holidays, the rest of the year they can have off

4. All bankers will be extradited.

5. Buckingham Palace will be turned into sheltered housing for the mentally ill.

6. Religion will be abolished and opium will take its place.

It might sound nuts but it's no more mental than what Trump, Farage, Johnson and Co have been promising :wink:

[ronaldo7]

17639

One o yer Labour pals getting his erse handed to him on a plate.

http://derekbateman.scot/2016/11/21/sadness-in-his-eyes/

[Bristolhibby]

Who knows what factor influenced this group, but they clearly had limited desire to live behind yet another border.

It's interesting that you talk about scaremongering. Did the SNP every get a definitive statement that it would be able to fast-track EU entry?

Re your last point, how could they issue a definitive answer? Have the Pro Brexit campaign uttered anything on how the UK will leave the EU.

The EU wouldnt answer any questions unless the UK asked the question. Obviously call me Dave was never going to directly ask the question as the EU would have then had to answer it truthfully.

It's all for a ball of hall anyway as the rUK voted to leave the EU.

J

[lucky]

One o yer Labour pals getting his erse handed to him on a plate.

http://derekbateman.scot/2016/11/21/sadness-in-his-eyes/

Not a pal of mine. Never met him but it appears he is a party member but from a different section of the party from me.

[ronaldo7]

Will SNP MP's give you more bang for yer buck in comparison to the Unionist parties in Scotland?

Yer tooting they will, even after Labour tried to pull the wool over people's eyes.

https://t.co/VxOdVBVDXu

[ronaldo7]

British?/English Nationalism on the rise?

https://t.co/Ikz12JHoCK

[AgentDaleCooper]

I think that is missing the point. The feeling of being disenfranchised goes well beyond the working class.

No-one is telling us - across the classes - a story that makes sense of what is going on on how we move forward. So the snake oil salesmen are able to move in and sell us pure bull5hit instead.

if you can filter out their slightly rabid/bat**** tone, wsws.org has a lot of articles that make sense...they're just terrible communicators.

[Colr]

if you can filter out their slightly rabid/bat**** tone, wsws.org has a lot of articles that make sense...they're just terrible communicators.

The analysis and critique that comes from the left is often thought provoking (eg Chavs) but there solutions are mostly bat**** crazy and I wouldn't trust most to run a bath. I sometimes feel they see themselves really as an "alternative elite"

[emerald green]

That's pathetic. I can see the Labour Party in Scotland coming out for independence in the near future. I wonder what your stance will be then.

Absolutely no chance of that. Why would they consign Scotland to an economic and social wasteland?

[lord bunberry]

Absolutely no chance of that. Why would they consign Scotland to an economic and social wasteland?

They're politicians, they'll do what's best for them electorally.
Politics in Scotland has become a one issue debate. The SNP and independence on one side and the Tories and the union on the other.
Labour is becoming more and more irrelevant as the days go on. You might not like it, but that's the way things are right now. How does labour become relevant again?
Your point about a social and economic wasteland is frankly laughable.

[emerald green]

They're politicians, they'll do what's best for them electorally.
Politics in Scotland has become a one issue debate. The SNP and independence on one side and the Tories and the union on the other.
Labour is becoming more and more irrelevant as the days go on. You might not like it, but that's the way things are right now. How does labour become relevant again?
Your point about a social and economic wasteland is frankly laughable.

According to you eh? Get this straight. The Labour Party will never come out in favour of independence. I think I've got a better idea on that subject that your musings.

My point about a social and political wasteland is right on the money. I could go on at length to tell you why, but frankly I cannae by arsed replying to a lot of the rubbish posted on this forum.

[lord bunberry]

According to you eh? Get this straight. The Labour Party will never come out in favour of independence. I think I've got a better idea on that subject that your musings.

My point about a social and political wasteland is right on the money. I could go on at length to tell you why, but frankly I cannae by arsed replying to a lot of the rubbish posted on this forum.
Thanks because I didn't want to hear it. People like you constantly do our country down. To suggest that an independent Scotland couldn't be a success is utterly untrue and you know it. There's numerous examples of countries our size doing very well. We struggle because we're part of a failed union that has been living on past glories for decades. If you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

[emerald green]

Thanks because I didn't want to hear it. People like you constantly do our country down. To suggest that an independent Scotland couldn't be a success is utterly untrue and you know it. There's numerous examples of countries our size doing very well. We struggle because we're part of a failed union that has been living on past glories for decades. If you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

I guess the truth hurts, and that's why you don't want to hear it. The usual nonsense about "people like me" and "doing our country down". You can't make a cogent argument, so play the man rather than the ball.

Far from doing my country down, it's quite the opposite in fact. I only want what's best for it, and I take exception to people who suggest otherwise. You don't even know me, yet you arrogantly state "and you know it". Well I'm sorry but I don't. What you need to understand is that because you wrap yourself in a Saltire, and happen to vote SNP, doesn't give you a monopoly on love of country.

I'm going to say the following, and then bow out because I don't want to spend any more of my time arguing with anyone who doesn't want to hear an alternative viewpoint. Here goes anyway...

Key questions over independence still remain unanswered (even after all these years) on currency, and what its value might be;

a central bank and how it would be funded with huge reserves;

a fiscal plan to maintain public services, welfare, and pensions at least at their current levels, after the removal of the Barnett Formula, other than huge cuts in public services and/or tax increases - ordinary people and the businesses which employ them will just love that. Not.

Do we really want the prospect of potential border controls with rUK?

Would an independent Scotland be able to absorb the cost of supporting an oil industry decommissioning oil platforms as required by EU rules, were it able to re-join the EU after how many years? There's no absolute guarantee of that IMO.

Could Scotland afford to set up an independent state, defence forces, foreign office and embassies across the world, welfare payments system, Scottish HMRC, DVLA, ad nauseum? Why do that when all this already exists? What would it all cost and how long would it take?

Where would the soldiers, sailors and airmen come from in the event of independence? They are all members of the UK armed forces. Would Scottish servicemen and women be told to leave??? I'm really not sure how this would work. Maybe I've missed that?

There are many many more questions, but I really can't be bothered going on. Frankly, like many people, I'm sick and tired of the whole utterly divisive independence question. Here was me thinking we dealt with that in a referendum only 3 years ago.

Then of course, in the event of independence , there would be no going back. Unless we had referendum 3. Any chance that would be agreed?

The union is not perfect, but on balance my view is we are better off in a 300 year old tried and tested union than outside of it. I know you don't agree, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[ronaldo7]

I guess the truth hurts, and that's why you don't want to hear it. The usual nonsense about "people like me" and "doing our country down". You can't make a cogent argument, so play the man rather than the ball.

Far from doing my country down, it's quite the opposite in fact. I only want what's best for it, and I take exception to people who suggest otherwise. You don't even know me, yet you arrogantly state "and you know it". Well I'm sorry but I don't. What you need to understand is that because you wrap yourself in a Saltire, and happen to vote SNP, doesn't give you a monopoly on love of country.

I'm going to say the following, and then bow out because I don't want to spend any more of my time arguing with anyone who doesn't want to hear an alternative viewpoint. Here goes anyway...

Key questions over independence still remain unanswered (even after all these years) on currency, and what its value might be;

a central bank and how it would be funded with huge reserves;

a fiscal plan to maintain public services, welfare, and pensions at least at their current levels, after the removal of the Barnett Formula, other than huge cuts in public services and/or tax increases - ordinary people and the businesses which employ them will just love that. Not.

Do we really want the prospect of potential border controls with rUK?

Would an independent Scotland be able to absorb the cost of supporting an oil industry decommissioning oil platforms as required by EU rules, were it able to re-join the EU after how many years? There's no absolute guarantee of that IMO.

Could Scotland afford to set up an independent state, defence forces, foreign office and embassies across the world, welfare payments system, Scottish HMRC, DVLA, ad nauseum? Why do that when all this already exists? What would it all cost and how long would it take?

Where would the soldiers, sailors and airmen come from in the event of independence? They are all members of the UK armed forces. Would Scottish servicemen and women be told to leave??? I'm really not sure how this would work. Maybe I've missed that?

There are many many more questions, but I really can't be bothered going on. Frankly, like many people, I'm sick and tired of the whole utterly divisive independence question. Here was me thinking we dealt with that in a referendum only 3 years ago.

Then of course, in the event of independence , there would be no going back. Unless we had referendum 3. Any chance that would be agreed?

The union is not perfect, but on balance my view is we are better off in a 300 year old tried and tested union than outside of it. I know you don't agree, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this.


I do wonder how Little old Ireland coped with Independence all those years ago, without the vast resources that Scotland has.

[RyeSloan]

I do wonder how Little old Ireland coped with Independence all those years ago, without the vast resources that Scotland has.

Well the answer to that is with a lot of difficulty for almost 40 years.

[ronaldo7]

Well the answer to that is with a lot of difficulty for almost 40 years.

Everyone has difficulties. Just look at the uk just now. Little old Ireland can hold their heads high though. A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves.

[PeeJay]

Everyone has difficulties. Just look at the uk just now. Little old Ireland can hold their heads high though. A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves.

Interesting to see you think Ireland is a good example of the way "iScotland" should go. I recall that millions left Ireland in the 70s/80s to look for work in the UK amongst other places as fhere was NOTHING in Ireland. The so-called "Celtic Tiger " too was recently shown up for what it always was: nothing but a paper tiger as the free state imploded into a failed state that had to be bailed out by the EU - and this after Ireland had helped major US companies to circumvent their actual tax obligations to countries like the UK and Germany where they really do their business, rather than Ireland.

A "free and independent nation" screwing things up on its own while holding out its hand when reality hits - hard to believe you are seriously puting Ireland forward as an example for Scottish independence: what next as an example of the way forward: Greece?

[RyeSloan]

Everyone has difficulties. Just look at the uk just now. Little old Ireland can hold their heads high though. A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves.

You asked how they coped...the answer is they suffered 40 years of declining population and grinding poverty.

As that fact didn't fit you narrative you then conveniently ignored it. [emoji30]

[ronaldo7]

I do wonder how Little old Ireland coped with Independence all those years ago, without the vast resources that Scotland has.


Well the answer to that is with a lot of difficulty for almost 40 years.


Interesting to see you think Ireland is a good example of the way "iScotland" should go. I recall that millions left Ireland in the 70s/80s to look for work in the UK amongst other places as fhere was NOTHING in Ireland. The so-called "Celtic Tiger " too was recently shown up for what it always was: nothing but a paper tiger as the free state imploded into a failed state that had to be bailed out by the EU - and this after Ireland had helped major US companies to circumvent their actual tax obligations to countries like the UK and Germany where they really do their business, rather than Ireland.

A "free and independent nation" screwing things up on its own while holding out its hand when reality hits - hard to believe you are seriously puting Ireland forward as an example for Scottish independence: what next as an example of the way forward: Greece?


You asked how they coped...the answer is they suffered 40 years of declining population and grinding poverty.

As that fact didn't fit you narrative you then conveniently ignored it. [emoji30]

The fact you missed the point spectacularly, kind of enforces, that you will never come round to Independence for Scotland, whatever our resources.

[Colr]

Interesting to see you think Ireland is a good example of the way "iScotland" should go. I recall that millions left Ireland in the 70s/80s to look for work in the UK amongst other places as fhere was NOTHING in Ireland. The so-called "Celtic Tiger " too was recently shown up for what it always was: nothing but a paper tiger as the free state imploded into a failed state that had to be bailed out by the EU - and this after Ireland had helped major US companies to circumvent their actual tax obligations to countries like the UK and Germany where they really do their business, rather than Ireland.

A "free and independent nation" screwing things up on its own while holding out its hand when reality hits - hard to believe you are seriously puting Ireland forward as an example for Scottish independence: what next as an example of the way forward: Greece?

Seem to remember that the UK government helped bail out Ireland as well.

They're banks property lending was incredibky irresponsible pre-crash.

[RyeSloan]

The fact you missed the point spectacularly, kind of enforces, that you will never come round to Independence for Scotland, whatever our resources.

'Vast resources' was hardly a quantifiable measure and of course you would need to consider the vast liabilities before any conclusion could be made which I believe was the point the poster was making in terms of the rather anaemic progress that has been made on that front.

As it is your extrapolation of a simple answer to your question into what my position maybe is a bit of a straw man...I was answering your question not stating anything to do with my position and in wheeling out the straw man you telling avoid the fact that Ireland is a very good example of the struggles independence can result in.

It would be more fitting to suggest that you clearly support Independence at any cost which may be fine for you just don't expect everyone to be aligned to such a position.

[PeeJay]

The fact you missed the point spectacularly, kind of enforces, that you will never come round to Independence for Scotland, whatever our resources.

Your somewhat "Trumpish" response reflects the times we live in, I guess :greengrin - YOU made the references to a "A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves." I assume you meant that to mean something positive from a pro-independence POV? I simply pointed out what you failed to allude to, that it hadn't worked out for Ireland as we have all seen: no doubt the Irish had orginally hoped, with their own resources, that independence would be a greater success than it has been.

[steakbake]

Your somewhat "Trumpish" response reflects the times we live in, I guess :greengrin - YOU made the references to a "A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves." I assume you meant that to mean something positive from a pro-independence POV? I simply pointed out what you failed to allude to, that it hadn't worked out for Ireland as we have all seen: no doubt the Irish had orginally hoped, with their own resources, that independence would be a greater success than it has been.




Sorry, are you really suggesting that Irish independence hasn't worked out?

Do you think that, given a choice, they'd change it?

What does being a successful country mean? That they're viable? That they exist peacefully? That they manage to continue? They all have their ups and downs.

I'm interested to know what your benchmark is?

[Smartie]

Were the 40 years post-Irish independence particularly prosperous anywhere in the world, the "hungry thirties", the rise of the Nazi party, the second world war and all that?

Was Ireland particularly prosperous in the last days of being part of the UK?

What led to Ireland wanting to break free in the first place?

If you conducted a straw poll in the Republic of Ireland today, how many people do you think would want to swap the status as an independent nation with EU membership for becoming a part of the UK again?


It's not been an easy ride for the Irish, that's for sure, and for many reasons. But of all of the perfectly valid arguments against why Scotland should be independent (many highlighted in Emerald Green's post a few above) I really don't think Ireland's situation could be held up as an argument.

Quite the opposite in fact.

[PeeJay]

Sorry, are you really suggesting that Irish independence hasn't worked out?

Do you think that, given a choice, they'd change it?

What does being a successful country mean? That they're viable? That they exist peacefully? That they manage to continue? They all have their ups and downs.

I'm interested to know what your benchmark is?

Well, I actually said Ireland's independence has not been the "great success" many had hoped for initially, which is not to say that it has been an abject and outright failure. By success I mean in terms of a successful economy providing its populace with jobs, security, peace and a perspective for the future for its young people, in particular - let's not forget, mIllions of Irish people have left the country since independence because of its economic problems and the recent bail out suggests things still aren't working. I don't personally think the Irish would change their decision at this moment in time.

My "benchmark" for being a successful country - as you ask - would be Scotland's position in the peaceful and prosperous United Kingdom that has been in existence for more than 300 years: the huge numbers of Irish people that left the independent free state and moved to the UK - the country they gained their freedom from - rather than stay at home tells its own tale, surely?

[steakbake]

Well, I actually said Ireland's independence has not been the "great success" many had hoped for initially, which is not to say that it has been an abject and outright failure. By success I mean in terms of a successful economy providing its populace with jobs, security, peace and a perspective for the future for its young people, in particular - let's not forget, mIllions of Irish people have left the country since independence because of its economic problems and the recent bail out suggests things still aren't working. I don't personally think the Irish would change their decision at this moment in time.

My "benchmark" for being a successful country - as you ask - would be Scotland's position in the peaceful and prosperous United Kingdom that has been in existence for more than 300 years: the huge numbers of Irish people that left the independent free state and moved to the UK - the country they gained their freedom from - rather than stay at home tells its own tale, surely?

The recent bail out was coming up for 10 years ago. On a per capita GDP, they are 7th in the world and the UK is 27th.

[PeeJay]

The recent bail out was coming up for 10 years ago. On a per capita GDP, they are 7th in the world and the UK is 27th.

Fair enough, the FC was 10 years hence, the bail out scheme has been successfully exited, but I doubt being 7th in the list rather than 27th will be reason enough for many to return to Ireland ... "a successful economy providing its populace with jobs, security, peace and a perspective for the future for its young people" would be a bigger draw, I think:greengrin

[steakbake]

Fair enough, the FC was 10 years hence, the bail out scheme has been successfully exited, but I doubt being 7th in the list rather than 27th will be reason enough for many to return to Ireland ... "a successful economy providing its populace with jobs, security, peace and a perspective for the future for its young people" would be a bigger draw, I think:greengrin

Perhaps, but emigration is also an issue which affects Scotland in our current political set up. In the past 100 years, around 2.75 million people have emigrated from here. In 1965-1966 alone, 1% of the population left in a single year.

[Geo_1875]

Fair enough, the FC was 10 years hence, the bail out scheme has been successfully exited, but I doubt being 7th in the list rather than 27th will be reason enough for many to return to Ireland ... "a successful economy providing its populace with jobs, security, peace and a perspective for the future for its young people" would be a bigger draw, I think:greengrin

That really doesn't sound like a description I'd give to the UK at the moment.

[PeeJay]

That really doesn't sound like a description I'd give to the UK at the moment.

Yeah, fair point - unfortunately Brexit and a possible independence for Scotland won't help that situation I fear ....

[ronaldo7]

'Vast resources' was hardly a quantifiable measure and of course you would need to consider the vast liabilities before any conclusion could be made which I believe was the point the poster was making in terms of the rather anaemic progress that has been made on that front.

As it is your extrapolation of a simple answer to your question into what my position maybe is a bit of a straw man...I was answering your question not stating anything to do with my position and in wheeling out the straw man you telling avoid the fact that Ireland is a very good example of the struggles independence can result in.

It would be more fitting to suggest that you clearly support Independence at any cost which may be fine for you just don't expect everyone to be aligned to such a position.

:greengrin

I could list our VAST resources, but it wouldn't really hit the spot for you.

Clearly, any nation becoming independent would have difficulties in setting out on a new future, however, I've never heard of one, not one, wishing to go back from whence they came.

Independence at any cost?? I don't think I've heard anyone mention that before.:wink:

[ronaldo7]

Your somewhat "Trumpish" response reflects the times we live in, I guess :greengrin - YOU made the references to a "A free and independent nation, deciding things for themselves." I assume you meant that to mean something positive from a pro-independence POV? I simply pointed out what you failed to allude to, that it hadn't worked out for Ireland as we have all seen: no doubt the Irish had orginally hoped, with their own resources, that independence would be a greater success than it has been.




I could have picked one of many Independent Nations of the world. It's normal to be so.

I'm not really sure the Irish had as many resources that an Independent Scotland would start with.

Anyway let's just "take back control" and be done with it.:greengrin

[beensaidbefore]

Was talking to a lady who had just left her husband. She was fed up with him giving her pocket money, telling her what part time job she could have, who she could be friends with, and telling her where and when she had to go. A lot of her friends told her just stay with him, even though he was an arrogant prick who cared very little for her. They kept saying, what will you do for money, where will you live, what about all the friends you have together. Best just stay as you will be too weak and useless to manage on your own. You are better off staying in the abusive relationship, because the unknown is just too scarey plus there might be some hardship along the way...

She left and is doing just fine. Alright she has endured some tough and unhappy times, but she was used to that anyway. But best of all for her, now when she is sad and unhappy it is due to decisions she madd for herself, not decisions her husband forced upon her.

Amazing eh?

[Slavers]

Was talking to a lady who had just left her husband. She was fed up with him giving her pocket money, telling her what part time job she could have, who she could be friends with, and telling her where and when she had to go. A lot of her friends told her just stay with him, even though he was an arrogant prick who cared very little for her. They kept saying, what will you do for money, where will you live, what about all the friends you have together. Best just stay as you will be too weak and useless to manage on your own. You are better off staying in the abusive relationship, because the unknown is just too scarey plus there might be some hardship along the way...

She left and is doing just fine. Alright she has endured some tough and unhappy times, but she was used to that anyway. But best of all for her, now when she is sad and unhappy it is due to decisions she madd for herself, not decisions her husband forced upon her.

Amazing eh?

Drivel.

[JeMeSouviens]

You asked how they coped...the answer is they suffered 40 years of declining population and grinding poverty.

As that fact didn't fit you narrative you then conveniently ignored it. [emoji30]

Are you suggesting Ireland didn't have mass emigration and grinding poverty under the Union?

Considering their starting points, comparing the relative performance of Ireland and Scotland from 1921 is not flattering to us by any means.

[JeMeSouviens]

According to you eh? Get this straight. The Labour Party will never come out in favour of independence. I think I've got a better idea on that subject that your musings.

My point about a social and political wasteland is right on the money. I could go on at length to tell you why, but frankly I cannae by arsed replying to a lot of the rubbish posted on this forum.

Well that's me persuaded. :rolleyes:

btw, how is not divisive for those of us who want our own country rather than to be an ignored part on the fringe of someone else's to be told to sit down and stfu?

[JeMeSouviens]

Was talking to a lady who had just left her husband. She was fed up with him giving her pocket money, telling her what part time job she could have, who she could be friends with, and telling her where and when she had to go. A lot of her friends told her just stay with him, even though he was an arrogant prick who cared very little for her. They kept saying, what will you do for money, where will you live, what about all the friends you have together. Best just stay as you will be too weak and useless to manage on your own. You are better off staying in the abusive relationship, because the unknown is just too scarey plus there might be some hardship along the way...

She left and is doing just fine. Alright she has endured some tough and unhappy times, but she was used to that anyway. But best of all for her, now when she is sad and unhappy it is due to decisions she madd for herself, not decisions her husband forced upon her.

Amazing eh?

Did her husband just tell all his neighbours to **** off by any chance? :wink:

[(((Fergus)))]

The question is probably along the lines of what is the simplistic answer when decades of failed politics creates a society that values profit and materialism more than people, community and pride?

Ultimately Jose didn't put Ol' boy Hank out of a job. The quest for shareholders to get more bang for their buck did.

Yes.

The question seems to be: how can we make our country both our place of business and our home? Supranational entities naturally focus on the former and fail to recognise the importance of the latter. The current wave of nationalism is merely an attempt to restore that work/life balance.

[RyeSloan]

Are you suggesting Ireland didn't have mass emigration and grinding poverty under the Union?

Considering their starting points, comparing the relative performance of Ireland and Scotland from 1921 is not flattering to us by any means.

Sheesh I wasn't suggesting anything...as I made clear I was simply answering the question.

It's pretty clear that Ireland suffered significantly for 40 years after independence and it could be argued that it wasn't until the 'Celtic Tiger' in the 90's that it made any significant progress (rudely halted by a recession that would make your eyes water)

The question was along the lines of how did little ol' Ireland cope after independence all those years ago and the answer is that it did so but suffered greatly for many decades afterwards.

Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that or why people feel the need to extrapolate that into me suggesting or comparing against something!

[ronaldo7]

Sheesh I wasn't suggesting anything...as I made clear I was simply answering the question.

It's pretty clear that Ireland suffered significantly for 40 years after independence and it could be argued that it wasn't until the 'Celtic Tiger' in the 90's that it made any significant progress (rudely halted by a recession that would make your eyes water)

The question was along the lines of how did little ol' Ireland cope after independence all those years ago and the answer is that it did so but suffered greatly for many decades afterwards.

Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that or why people feel the need to extrapolate that into me suggesting or comparing against something!

Maybe I should have said Little old Norway. :greengrin

[steakbake]

Sheesh I wasn't suggesting anything...as I made clear I was simply answering the question.

It's pretty clear that Ireland suffered significantly for 40 years after independence and it could be argued that it wasn't until the 'Celtic Tiger' in the 90's that it made any significant progress (rudely halted by a recession that would make your eyes water)

The question was along the lines of how did little ol' Ireland cope after independence all those years ago and the answer is that it did so but suffered greatly for many decades afterwards.

Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that or why people feel the need to extrapolate that into me suggesting or comparing against something!

Those first 30 years or so also coincided with the Great Depression and WW2, which resulted in mass unemployment and poverty in many countries.

Not an ideal start, but I wouldn't have thought for one minute they'd have decided it wasn't worth it.

[RyeSloan]

Maybe I should have said Little old Norway. :greengrin

Hee hee you could chuck in the 'reverse Greenland model' for good luck [emoji12]

[beensaidbefore]

Did her husband just tell all his neighbours to **** off by any chance? :wink:

Do you know them too? 😂😂

[ronaldo7]

Hee hee you could chuck in the 'reverse Greenland model' for good luck [emoji12]

Little old Malta.

Little old Slovakia

Little old Lithuania

Little old Latvia.

You getting my drift.:wink:

[JackLadd]

If you want to be in hock to the IMF within 20 years and have massive cuts to pensions, NHS and social care like Greece has suffered, see your savings and property wiped out, then vote aye in wee Nip's indyref2. Because that is what you will get. Don't believe me? They (SNP) were offered full fiscal autonomy in 2015 and sh it themselves. Why? Maybe it was because an $8bn black hole would be like signing their own death warrants. And check the unemployment figures in the wonderful eu that Sturgeon wants us to pay $1bn a year to join. Eu area 10%, Brexit UK 4.7%. Comparable nations to Scotland: Finland 9% unemployed, Ireland 7.5%, and of course Greece 24% unemployed with youth unemployment at double that. I think I'll vote with my head.

[JackLadd]

Little old Malta.

Little old Slovakia.

Little old Lithuania,

Little old Latvia.

You getting my drift.:wink:



Little old Slovakia. 9% unemployed.

Little old Lithuania, 8% unemployed

Little old Latvia. 9.5% unemployed.

Brexit UK. 4.7% unemployed.

Combined average wage (Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia) £8600 a year.

Brexit UK £26,500.


Which is why the immigrants I know and could vote in 2014 all said No.

[marinello59]

If you want to be in hock to the IMF within 20 years and have massive cuts to pensions, NHS and social care like Greece has suffered, see your savings and property wiped out, then vote aye in wee Nip's indyref2. Because that is what you will get. Don't believe me? They (SNP) were offered full fiscal autonomy in 2015 and sh it themselves. Why? Maybe it was because an $8bn black hole would be like signing their own death warrants. And check the unemployment figures in the wonderful eu that Sturgeon wants us to pay $1bn a year to join. Eu area 10%, Brexit UK 4.7%. Comparable nations to Scotland: Finland 9% unemployed, Ireland 7.5%, and of course Greece 24% unemployed with youth unemployment at double that. I think I'll vote with my head.

And let's not forget that anybody who votes Yes will wake up the next morning covered in boils. Probably.

[RyeSloan]

Little old Malta.

Little old Slovakia

Little old Lithuania

Little old Latvia.

You getting my drift.:wink:

Or little old Cyprus where the EU raided private individuals bank accounts accounts while holding a bail in gun to the governments head?

We can throw many examples about to suit the agenda at hand but I think the long and short of it is that Independence for Scotland has significant and substantial risks that have yet to be fully explored or even properly understood.

The almost flippant response that people receive when raising these risks does little to move the discussion forward.

[ronaldo7]

Or little old Cyprus where the EU raided private individuals bank accounts accounts while holding a bail in gun to the governments head?

We can throw many examples about to suit the agenda at hand but I think the long and short of it is that Independence for Scotland has significant and substantial risks that have yet to be fully explored or even properly understood.

The almost flippant response that people receive when raising these risks does little to move the discussion forward.

I'm still waiting for the UK GOV response to the Scot gov document on Scotland's place in Europe. Heard nowt since it was published.

We can throw many examples about to suit the agenda at hand but I think the long and short of it is that Brexit for the UK has significant and substantial risks that have yet to be fully explored or even properly understood. :wink:

[ronaldo7]

Little old Slovakia. 9% unemployed.

Little old Lithuania, 8% unemployed

Little old Latvia. 9.5% unemployed.

Brexit UK. 4.7% unemployed.

Combined average wage (Slovakia, Lithuania, Latvia) £8600 a year.

Brexit UK £26,500.


Which is why the immigrants I know and could vote in 2014 all said No.

So the average wage in the UK is £26.5k, that's great, so Scotland is already well ahead of these other small nations in the EU.:aok:

[RyeSloan]

I'm still waiting for the UK GOV response to the Scot gov document on Scotland's place in Europe. Heard nowt since it was published.

We can throw many examples about to suit the agenda at hand but I think the long and short of it is that Brexit for the UK has significant and substantial risks that have yet to be fully explored or even properly understood. :wink:

Aye well let's not get into a debate on the Scot govt paper...we are never gonna agree on that piece of convoluted fiction ;-)

And sure Brexit is the same and you just need to look at the mess that's caused...the thing is though you are arguing for exactly the same to happen to Scotland with Indy. Let's just jump in and we'll sort it all out later (or in 18 months or whatever bizarre timeline has been put forward). To me at least that's a non sensical proposition made all the more non sensical by the car crash that the Brexit vote has evidenced.

[ronaldo7]

Aye well let's not get into a debate on the Scot govt paper...we are never gonna agree on that piece of convoluted fiction ;-)

And sure Brexit is the same and you just need to look at the mess that's caused...the thing is though you are arguing for exactly the same to happen to Scotland with Indy. Let's just jump in and we'll sort it all out later (or in 18 months or whatever bizarre timeline has been put forward). To me at least that's a non sensical proposition made all the more non sensical by the car crash that the Brexit vote has evidenced.

Completely different.

An outward, inclusive nation in the EU, V Farage styled England ruling the other nations of the UK.

It's all about Self determination I suppose, and those who wish have the power to help the people in Scotland V Those who are happy with their lot, and Theresa the Appeaser.

[RyeSloan]

Completely different.

An outward, inclusive nation in the EU, V Farage styled England ruling the other nations of the UK.

It's all about Self determination I suppose, and those who wish have the power to help the people in Scotland V Those who are happy with their lot, and Theresa the Appeaser.

Well that kind of proves the point doesn't it...stuff actually having a clear and definable plan or addressing people's real concerns on what Indy would actually mean or how it work in reality let's just fire out some empty rhetoric (making sure it has a jibe at the Tories and UKIP for extra impact) and mutter something about 'self determination' and 'power', that'll do the trick!

[northstandhibby]

Well that kind of proves the point doesn't it...stuff actually having a clear and definable plan or addressing people's real concerns on what Indy would actually mean or how it work in reality let's just fire out some empty rhetoric (making sure it has a jibe at the Tories and UKIP for extra impact) and mutter something about 'self determination' and 'power', that'll do the trick!

Isn't that exactly how the brexiteers won their brexit?

No clear and definable plan or addressing real concerns on what brexit would actually mean or how it would work in reality, let's just fire out some empty rhetoric.

Remember the extra money for the NHS slogan?

glory glory

[ronaldo7]

Well that kind of proves the point doesn't it...stuff actually having a clear and definable plan or addressing people's real concerns on what Indy would actually mean or how it work in reality let's just fire out some empty rhetoric (making sure it has a jibe at the Tories and UKIP for extra impact) and mutter something about 'self determination' and 'power', that'll do the trick!

What was it you were saying about the Scottish governments document about Scotland's place in Europe again.😮

25 questions selected for Scottish questions at Westminster today. 2 from MPs from Scottish constituents.

That's your democratic deficit for you.

[Geo_1875]

Aye well let's not get into a debate on the Scot govt paper...we are never gonna agree on that piece of convoluted fiction ;-)

And sure Brexit is the same and you just need to look at the mess that's caused...the thing is though you are arguing for exactly the same to happen to Scotland with Indy. Let's just jump in and we'll sort it all out later (or in 18 months or whatever bizarre timeline has been put forward). To me at least that's a non sensical proposition made all the more non sensical by the car crash that the Brexit vote has evidenced.

I read it and there were a lot of numbers that turned out to be wrong, but many of the proposals had a lot of thought put into them and made sense to me. The counter-argument seemed to be "No You Can't. Why? Just Because." with (what now turns out to be) a lot of lies printed and pushed through my letterbox. I've now reached the stage where I really think the UK is not a place I want live in and an Independent Scotland cant be any worse.

[RyeSloan]

Isn't that exactly how the brexiteers won their brexit?

No clear and definable plan or addressing real concerns on what brexit would actually mean or how it would work in reality, let's just fire out some empty rhetoric.

Remember the extra money for the NHS slogan?

glory glory

Exactly my point. Do you believe that is how Indy should be handled?

[Moulin Yarns]

Exactly my point. Do you believe that is how Indy should be handled?

Except a clearly defined plan is being worked on, unlike Brexit where there is still no plan apart from stopping immigration.



On Saturday, February 18th, nation-wide independence supporting organisations and representatives from pro-independence political parties came together for the first organisational meeting of the reconvened Scottish Independence Convention.

Under the umbrella of the Scottish Independence Convention, the SNP, the Scottish Greens, SSP and Labour for Independence got together with representatives from pro-independence organisations and think-tanks to agree on a constitution and discuss the way forward for Scottish independence.

[northstandhibby]

Exactly my point. Do you believe that is how Indy should be handled?

But that's not how Indy Ref 2 will be handled. I'm quite sure the SNP will have to outline a return to the EU and its institutions will be a post indy outcome at some point down the line, everyone knows what that will entail, while on the other hand brexit is a directional unknown in absence of any certainty whatsoever.

I note there is a rebellious attitude in the House of Lords and there is still choppy waters ahead for a full hard brexit to come whilst being aware the House of Commons can ultimately bypass the House of Lords. However every resistance and voice against a hard brexit is a welcome one for me. I particularly enjoyed Michael Heseltine's comments of the final say being delivered by the House of Commons as is only right and proper.

glory glory

[RyeSloan]

But that's not how Indy Ref 2 will be handled. I'm quite sure the SNP will have to outline a return to the EU and its institutions will be a post indy outcome at some point down the line, everyone knows what that will entail, while on the other hand brexit is a directional unknown in absence of any certainty whatsoever.

I note there is a rebellious attitude in the House of Lords and there is still choppy waters ahead for a full hard brexit to come whilst being aware the House of Commons can ultimately bypass the House of Lords. However every resistance and voice against a hard brexit is a welcome one for me. I particularly enjoyed Michael Heseltine's comments of the final say being delivered by the House of Commons as is only right and proper.

glory glory

Cool well we'll wait and see then as Indy1 was a mess and I've yet to see any substantive progress made on the key questions that dogged the last campaign so if Indy2 (if it happens) is going to be different then that will be a welcome change.

Got to say though that they have had plenty time already to get these things out in the open (maybe a decade or so!) and if the white paper the last time around is anything to go by I'm not holding my breath.

[JeMeSouviens]

Cool well we'll wait and see then as Indy1 was a mess and I've yet to see any substantive progress made on the key questions that dogged the last campaign so if Indy2 (if it happens) is going to be different then that will be a welcome change.

Got to say though that they have had plenty time already to get these things out in the open (maybe a decade or so!) and if the white paper the last time around is anything to go by I'm not holding my breath.

It is being worked on ...


The full membership of the SNP’s Growth Commission is:

Andrew Wilson (Chair), former SNP MSP and Economy and Finance spokesperson, Founding Partner, Charlotte St Partners;
Councillor Marie Burns , Shadow Economy and Communities Spokesperson, North Ayrshire Council;
Professor Iain Docherty, Professor of Public Policy and Governance, University of Glasgow;
Kate Forbes, MSP for Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch;
Professor Andrew Hughes Hallet, Professor of Economics and Public Policy, George Mason University and University of St Andrews;
Dan McDonald, Businessman and Founder of N56 group;
Derek MacKay MSP, Scottish Government Cabinet Secretary for Finance;
Marie Macklin CBE, Chief Executive of the Klin Group and Macklin Enterprise Partnership;
Jim Mather, Former Enterprise Minister and Visiting Professor at the University of Strathclyde and Heriot Watt University;
Roger Mullin MP, SNP Westminster Finance Spokesperson;
Professor Catherine Schenk, Professor of International Economic History, University of Glasgow;
Mark Shaw, Chief Executive, Hazledene;
Shirley-Anne Somerville, Minister for Further Education, Higher Education and Science;
Petra Wetzel, Founder and Managing Director WEST Brewery.



The Commission will assess the projections for Scotland’s economy and public finances, consider the implications for our economy and finances of different potential governance scenarios, and make recommendations for policy on:

Measures to boost economic growth and improve Scotland's public finances - both now in the aftermath of the EU referendum and in the context of independence;
The potential for and best use of savings from UK programmes in the event of independence, such as Trident;
The range of transitional cost and benefits associated with independence and arrangements for dealing with future revenue windfalls, including future North Sea Revenues.
In addition, the Commission will take account of the recommendations of the 2013 Fiscal Commission reports, and the outcome of the EU referendum, and consider the most appropriate monetary policy arrangements to underpin a programme for sustainable growth in an independent Scotland.

I'm in 2 minds about the whole detailed prospectus thing. On the one hand, it's reasonable for people to be given a proper plan to vote for rather than a stab in the dark. On the other, it's really the ability to take decisions on, say, which currency to use rather which currency we do actually use that we're voting on. We could win independence in a referendum based on the Euro and then a party with a policy of a Scots pound could win the first election to the iScot parliament.

[JeMeSouviens]

If you want to be in hock to the IMF within 20 years and have massive cuts to pensions, NHS and social care like Greece has suffered, see your savings and property wiped out, then vote aye in wee Nip's indyref2. Because that is what you will get. Don't believe me? They (SNP) were offered full fiscal autonomy in 2015 and sh it themselves. Why? Maybe it was because an $8bn black hole would be like signing their own death warrants. And check the unemployment figures in the wonderful eu that Sturgeon wants us to pay $1bn a year to join. Eu area 10%, Brexit UK 4.7%. Comparable nations to Scotland: Finland 9% unemployed, Ireland 7.5%, and of course Greece 24% unemployed with youth unemployment at double that. I think I'll vote with my head.

Admit it, you just made that up, didn't you?

From Maggie Chapman, one of the Green reps on the Smith Commission:


The reality is that we need a full package of macroeconomic powers for Scotland, the powers Greens demanded during the Smith process and which were vetoed by the unionist parties. These powers include control over corporation tax, tax and regulation of the energy sector (particularly North Sea oil and gas), renewables infrastructure support, research councils, control over immigration such as being able to reintroduce the post-study work visa, employment and trade union laws, and so much more.

So, no, I don't believe you.

[Smartie]

I don't know if Indyref2 should be handled by coming up with a well thought out proposal that answers people's questions and allows them to make an informed decision as to whether they favour it or not.

The order of the political present day is to make ridiculous claims and promises that can't possibly be delivered then worry about the details later (sometimes going back on promises in less than a day).

If Independence was to be achieved off the back of false claims, what is anyone going to do about it after the event? Demand that we re-join the Union?

There's not a lot useful that can be learned from Trump and the Brexiteers, but how to hoodwink stupid people into voting for stupid ideas is something they have a bit of authority on.

I voted yes the last time but it is an entirely different proposition this time round, and will be argued on different territory relevant to that moment in time (whenever it is). I will probably vote yeas again, but it remains to be seen whether or not that is utter madness and whether or not it has anything to do with arguments put forward by either side.

[Just Alf]

It is being worked on ...





I'm in 2 minds about the whole detailed prospectus thing. On the one hand, it's reasonable for people to be given a proper plan to vote for rather than a stab in the dark. On the other, it's really the ability to take decisions on, say, which currency to use rather which currency we do actually use that we're voting on. We could win independence in a referendum based on the Euro and then a party with a policy of a Scots pound could win the first election to the iScot parliament.
That's actually a really, really good point.

The no side made lots and lots of mileage on the fact that the white paper didn't state what currency an independent Scotland would use (although I think in reality there were three possibilities in the paper!) The bottom line is that it really didn't matter what was in there... if the SNP said we'll continue to use Sterling, then fine, but if Labour or the Tories got voted in then it would be up to them what happened. (And in an independent Scotland perspective whoever was voted in equals US as opposed to the UK gov)

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

There's no comparison between the messages sent out by UKIP/the Republican Party and that what the SNP preach. The SNP having a go at Westminster is fair game in my opinion, what's not is xenophobic rants at foreigners, homophobic attacks and religious bigotry. There's a world of difference and trying to draw parallels along those lines is ridiculous and misleading.

Also forgetting there are Scottish MPs in Westminster. They are just drowned up by the rest.

This isn't and never was a "Scotlands better kick em out", type of Natuonalism. It is firmly the belief that Scotlands decisions should be made by the People of Scotland. Regardless of Race, Relegion, Nationality or Political belief.

For me that's hard to argue against, especially when Scotlands political will is totally different to the rest of the UK.

J

[Bristolhibby]

If you want to be in hock to the IMF within 20 years and have massive cuts to pensions, NHS and social care like Greece has suffered, see your savings and property wiped out, then vote aye in wee Nip's indyref2. Because that is what you will get. Don't believe me? They (SNP) were offered full fiscal autonomy in 2015 and sh it themselves. Why? Maybe it was because an $8bn black hole would be like signing their own death warrants. And check the unemployment figures in the wonderful eu that Sturgeon wants us to pay $1bn a year to join. Eu area 10%, Brexit UK 4.7%. Comparable nations to Scotland: Finland 9% unemployed, Ireland 7.5%, and of course Greece 24% unemployed with youth unemployment at double that. I think I'll vote with my head.

Full fiscal Automomy would mean having control of ALL tax raising and spending powers. You know this never happened.

Remind me how Scotland would cease to fund Trident?

Independence is the only way to achieve full autonomy.

Also regarding Greece. Compatible to what? Population size? You do know Scotland is nothing like or will never be anything like Greece? In terms of culture, GDP, Tax receipts, social services, infrastructure, balance of trade and investment, etc.

J

[Hibrandenburg]

Also forgetting there are Scottish MPs in Westminster. They are just drowned up by the rest.

This isn't and never was a "Scotlands better kick em out", type of Natuonalism. It is firmly the belief that Scotlands decisions should be made by the People of Scotland. Regardless of Race, Relegion, Nationality or Political belief.

For me that's hard to argue against, especially when Scotlands political will is totally different to the rest of the UK.

J

:agree:

Billy Bragg sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could.

https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

[Hibrandenburg]

Anyone else watching sky news right now? One jibe after the other about Scots, Scottish independence, the Scottish mentality, Scottish arrogance, Scottish inadequacy, Scottish education, Scottish politicians and of course the Scottish diet. Jeez, it feels like Nazi Germany held the Jews in higher esteem than our so called partners hold us.

[Mon Dieu4]

Anyone else watching sky news right now? One jibe after the other about Scots, Scottish independence, the Scottish mentality, Scottish arrogance, Scottish inadequacy, Scottish education, Scottish politicians and of course the Scottish diet. Jeez, it feels like Nazi Germany held the Jews in higher esteem than our so called partners hold us.

BBC isn't much better, every 30 mins they are showing May putting us in our place

[Hibrandenburg]

BBC isn't much better, every 30 mins they are showing May putting us in our place

How can anyone take a news channel serious when they have a panel of 5 with all 5 getting stuck into everything Scottish and after they came back from the break and before moving onto sport the announcer says with a hint of glee "and after that Scotland bashing session we move on to sport". Paradoxically the first report was about tennis.

[JeMeSouviens]

BBC isn't much better, every 30 mins they are showing May putting us in our place

I did wonder if they were going to cut away before or after Jackie Bird asked for a selfie. :rolleyes:

[Moulin Yarns]

BBC isn't much better, every 30 mins they are showing May putting us in our place

Is that the presidential interview between Jakey Burd and May with the Union Flag prominent in the background?

[Bristolhibby]

:agree:

Billy Bragg sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could.

https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

Great article.

He gets it.

J

[PeeJay]

Anyone else watching sky news right now? One jibe after the other about Scots, Scottish independence, the Scottish mentality, Scottish arrogance, Scottish inadequacy, Scottish education, Scottish politicians and of course the Scottish diet. Jeez, it feels like Nazi Germany held the Jews in higher esteem than our so called partners hold us.

Seriously? You're not doing your cause any good with ill-considered assertions like this ... :confused:

[Hibrandenburg]

Seriously? You're not doing your cause any good with ill-considered ssertions like this ... :confused:




Do you think I'm serious? Or could it be the reporting pissed me off and I'm venting by using exaggerated sarcasm?

[PeeJay]

Do you think I'm serious? Or could it be the reporting pissed me off and I'm venting by using exaggerated sarcasm?

Of course not, I get your annoyance - but WE live in Germany, your statement doesn't do YOU any justice - I've no doubts that you could vent your frustration better and more pointedly - e.g. BB is an interesting read. Why are you wasting your time watching Murdoch's "news" agency anyway :greengrin

[Colr]

:agree:

Billy Bragg sums it up much more eloquently than I ever could.

https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

Good article but an add on conclusion could have been that somebody should be fostering a sense of civic nationalism in England to displace the ethnic nationalism that is growing like a cancer here.

I think that was part of the Blair appeal in the 1990s.

[Hibbyradge]

We can throw many examples about to suit the agenda at hand but I think the long and short of it is that Brexit has significant and substantial risks that have yet to be fully explored or even properly understood.



FTFY :wink:

[RyeSloan]

FTFY :wink:

Ha ha very good but I don't think that was ever up for debate.

My rather simple point is that Brexit shows what happens when the public votes for something that hasn't been fully explored and while I believe that is no reason to backtrack on the decision now that it is made it would be fool hardy to go about ANOTHER Indy ref with the same approach.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ha ha very good but I don't think that was ever up for debate.

My rather simple point is that Brexit shows what happens when the public votes for something that hasn't been fully explored and while I believe that is no reason to backtrack on the decision now that it is made it would be fool hardy to go about ANOTHER Indy ref with the same approach.

Which bit do you not understand?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?316115-Nationalism-is-the-answer-Now-what-s-the-question&p=4962293&viewfull=1#post4962293

the failings of the first campaign is being fully explored. I wonder how the Better Together campaign is getting on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39151250

[RyeSloan]

Which bit do you not understand?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?316115-Nationalism-is-the-answer-Now-what-s-the-question&p=4962293&viewfull=1#post4962293

the failings of the first campaign is being fully explored. I wonder how the Better Together campaign is getting on?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39151250

Jeez I get that and responded as such further up the thread...

But if you don't mind I'll await the output before taking any view as the last effort (white paper) was hardly a resounding success...