Halloween fancy dress. Is blacking up a no no?

[beensaidbefore]

Just read an article about Joni mitchell where she wore black make up for fancy dress. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37781800

I have previously been out as Mr t, shaved hair beard, black face and body paint. Jewellery etc. I didn't think there was nyting wrong with it and considered it again for the future, but having read this I'm now not so sure.

Is there any legislation etc to discourage this or are people being just being pc?

[Hibee87]

Its all about the context to be honest. I dont see 'blacking up' as mr t as anything other than dressing up as mr t. there is no racist undertone to it.
If you blacked up and dressed as a suicide bomber, then yes you can see how that would be classed as racist.

If someone finds blacking up offensive, but not racist, then thats their issue.

[beensaidbefore]

Its all about the context to be honest. I dont see 'blacking up' as mr t as anything other than dressing up as mr t. there is no racist undertone to it.
If you blacked up and dressed as a suicide bomber, then yes you can see how that would be classed as racist.

If someone finds blacking up offensive, but not racist, then thats their issue.

Kinda my view on the matter. Wasn't aware it could be an issue. Obviously dressing up as a generic/stereotype wouldn't be a great move.

Since posting iv been doing some reading and it seems there is quite a bit of strong feelings around the matter.

Nick cannon dressed as a white guy and has been defended as non racist due to the fact thee is no historical oppression of white by black people. I can see the point but if that's the accepted stance then its double standards to say the least.

[Betty Boop]

'Blacking up'? Jeez its 2016 not the dark ages.

[danhibees1875]

"blacking up" - no. "going as Mr T" - yes.

[woodythehibee]

I'm sure a group from Edinburgh Uni recently got into trouble for dressing up as the cast from Cool Runnings as they "blacked up" .

I personally don't see an issue with it

[Pretty Boy]

Given the whole history of 'blackface' it's something I'd steer well clear off.

I understand the argument that if you are dressing up as a black person it may seem harmless enough but given the sensitivities around it I can see why some would still find it offensive. With that in mind I'd also question any black person who chose to 'white up'.

[danhibees1875]

Given the whole history of 'blackface' it's something I'd steer well clear off.

I understand the argument that if you are dressing up as a black person it may seem harmless enough but given the sensitivities around it I can see why some would still find it offensive. With that in mind I'd also question any black person who chose to 'white up'.

I've never seen this happen - what would a black person use to white up? (I'm hoping you're not just covering your bases, and you've actually seen this happen! )

[Sir David Gray]

It really shouldn't be an issue to dress up as someone from a different ethnic background to yourself but unfortunately in the culture and times that we live in, where people love to be offended by everything and anything, it is.

I would therefore avoid dressing up as any non-white person, if it involves changing the colour of your skin.

[Mon Dieu4]

It really shouldn't be an issue to dress up as someone from a different ethnic background to yourself but unfortunately in the culture and times that we live in, where people love to be offended by everything and anything, it is.

I would therefore avoid dressing up as any non-white person, if it involves changing the colour of your skin.

All too easy for "offended" white folk to wheel out nonsense like that, we weren't subjected to countless years of the black and white minstrel shows, Al Jolson, Golliwogs and other disgusting stereotypes, even done in perfect innocence like Mr T I can see how people would think the connotation is still there so we should have a little respect and be thoughtful towards people who might be offended

**** it I might stroll to the synagogue in a SS uniform, it's Halloween and good fun after all

[Onceinawhile]

Given the whole history of 'blackface' it's something I'd steer well clear off.

I understand the argument that if you are dressing up as a black person it may seem harmless enough but given the sensitivities around it I can see why some would still find it offensive. With that in mind I'd also question any black person who chose to 'white up'.

The first paragraph explains everything that needs to be explained.

Blacking up used to be a way of subjugating the black populace and making them seem unintelligent and worthless.

If you would like to recall that time in history feel free. Just don't be surprised when you are called on it.

[Danderhall Hibs]

not the dark ages.

I don't think you can say that anymore.

[Scouse Hibee]

Just read an article about Joni mitchell where she wore black make up for fancy dress. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37781800

I have previously been out as Mr t, shaved hair beard, black face and body paint. Jewellery etc. I didn't think there was nyting wrong with it and considered it again for the future, but having read this I'm now not so sure.

Is there any legislation etc to discourage this or are people being just being pc?

Carry on, let the narrow minded fools have their own thoughts, don't bow to their nonsense.

[Danderhall Hibs]

"blacking up" - no. "going as Mr T" - yes.

Would anyone know you're Mr T if you didn't "black up"?

Anyway why does anyone do fancy dress in the first place - it's clearly a minefield.

[Pete]

Kinda my view on the matter. Wasn't aware it could be an issue. Obviously dressing up as a generic/stereotype wouldn't be a great move.

Since posting iv been doing some reading and it seems there is quite a bit of strong feelings around the matter.

Nick cannon dressed as a white guy and has been defended as non racist due to the fact thee is no historical oppression of white by black people. I can see the point but if that's the accepted stance then its double standards to say the least.

We are supposed to live in this colourblind society where we are all equal and there are no taboos. We all acknowledge the past but dressing up as Mr T. and colouring your face to mimic his isn't about racial caricurisation, it's merely about getting the look right. What's the problem?

On the other hand, there is the history behind it and it might not go down too well with some people. The concept of painting yourself black for amusement can override the context due to the dark history, so it's probably best avoided.

There are always accusations of unnecessary white guilt when it comes to such matters but people really should study some black history. It therefore becomes about respect.

[Pretty Boy]

I've never seen this happen - what would a black person use to white up? (I'm hoping you're not just covering your bases, and you've actually seen this happen! )

Nick Cannon was mentioned above. Or the somewhat dubious humour of the film 'White Chicks' are 2 examples. Both played up on stereotypes of white Americans and as I said given the hurt that was quite rightly caused by blakface stereotypes it suprises me someone would find that ok.

I've never seen this happen - what would a black person use to white up? (I'm hoping you're not just covering your bases, and you've actually seen this happen! )


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[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's compatible with the attempts of some English folks to put on a ***** Scottish accent and say things like "see you Jimmy" or "och aye the noo". It's more cringe worthy than insulting and just makes the person doing it look a biff.

From my experience the type of person who does things like that might raise a laugh once but have no plan b so they end up doing it over and over until they become nauseating.

[danhibees1875]

Would anyone know you're Mr T if you didn't "black up"?

Anyway why does anyone do fancy dress in the first place - it's clearly a minefield.
I wasn't clear there, I meant it's okay so long as your going as a specific and famous person. I wouldn't just dress up as a black person.

Coincidentally I'm going to a fancy dress party tonight - one of my friends will be blueing up to be a smurf. I'll make sure she's specifically a smurf and not just a blue stereotype ;).

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[Nameless]

I have no moral or ethical issue with anyone painting their face black, white, blue or any other colours.

I do have an issue with anyone older than 16 wearing fancy dress.

[Colr]

I've never seen this happen - what would a black person use to white up? (I'm hoping you're not just covering your bases, and you've actually seen this happen! )

White stage paint.

The great black actor from the Georgian era, Ira Aldridge, would white up to play Shakespearian roles.

These days he would have just played them as black characters. Works much better.

Given the free range one has at halloween, I'm pretty sure theres a better idea than blacking up kicking around. Why go out of your way to create trouble.

[Sir David Gray]

All too easy for "offended" white folk to wheel out nonsense like that, we weren't subjected to countless years of the black and white minstrel shows, Al Jolson, Golliwogs and other disgusting stereotypes, even done in perfect innocence like Mr T I can see how people would think the connotation is still there so we should have a little respect and be thoughtful towards people who might be offended

**** it I might stroll to the synagogue in a SS uniform, it's Halloween and good fun after all

Yes because going to a Jewish place of worship dressed up as someone from the Nazi party is the same as dressing up as a character from a TV show right enough. :rolleyes:

[Colr]

The first paragraph explains everything that needs to be explained.

Blacking up used to be a way of subjugating the black populace and making them seem unintelligent and worthless.

If you would like to recall that time in history feel free. Just don't be surprised when you are called on it.

Yup.

[beensaidbefore]

I've never seen this happen - what would a black person use to white up? (I'm hoping you're not just covering your bases, and you've actually seen this happen! )

See post 3. Do search on the internet some examples. White chicks is a perfect example of double standard IMO.

[Colr]

See post 3. Do search on the internet some examples. White chicks is a perfect example of double standard IMO.

In fairness quite a few people have identified White Chicks as the decisive bilge it actually was.

[beensaidbefore]

Nick Cannon was mentioned above. Or the somewhat dubious humour of the film 'White Chicks' are 2 examples. Both played up on stereotypes of white Americans and as I said given the hurt that was quite rightly caused by blakface stereotypes it suprises me someone would find that ok.



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Exactly. Is that double standards? I think so.

Just be clear, I am not offended by any non-white person dressing up as one. Just an little surprised there is such strong feeling. I can understand dressing as a generic black person could cos offence, but as a character from TV film etc I find that a bit daft.

[beensaidbefore]

In fairness quite a few people have identified White Chicks as the decisive bilge it actually was.

The fact it was even made suggests there are differing attitudes and standards around who is being made fun of.

Let's be honest people of all colours and races can be racist. If dressing up at Halloween as a black character is racist, white chicks most defo was too.

Don't get me started on the mobos. Try trotting out the mowos and there would be outrage.

[CapitalGreen]

The fact it was even made suggests there are differing attitudes and standards around who is being made fun of.

Let's be honest people of all colours and races can be racist. If dressing up at Halloween as a black character is racist, white chicks most defo was too.

Don't get me started on the mobos. Try trotting out the mowos and there would be outrage.

What's your issue with the MOBOs?

[speedy_gonzales]

What's your issue with the MOBOs?
Are they required or as pertinent today?
If they are, should we have musical award ceremonies for all ethnicities?

Then you can ask if the BMA's(black movie awards) are necessary.

Whole can of worms if you ask me?

[Onceinawhile]

The fact it was even made suggests there are differing attitudes and standards around who is being made fun of.

Let's be honest people of all colours and races can be racist. If dressing up at Halloween as a black character is racist, white chicks most defo was too.

Don't get me started on the mobos. Try trotting out the mowos and there would be outrage.

There is a mowos. It's called the country music awards.

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

[Colr]

The fact it was even made suggests there are differing attitudes and standards around who is being made fun of.

Let's be honest people of all colours and races can be racist. If dressing up at Halloween as a black character is racist, white chicks most defo was too.

Don't get me started on the mobos. Try trotting out the mowos and there would be outrage.Given widely reported incidents of sexual abuse of white girls by groups of men from ethnic minorities driven by their attitudes about white women, you could say it was as ill judged as any black and white minstrel show and then some!!

[Colr]

There is a mowos. It's called the country music awards.

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

Sounds terrible

[beensaidbefore]

What's your issue with the MOBOs?

Its a form of descrimination IMO. Then point was the use of the word black vs white. Mowos would be condemned as discriminatory, using that logic so are the mobos.

[beensaidbefore]

There is a mowos. It's called the country music awards.

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

They don't call it the white folks awards though.

[Colr]

Its a form of descrimination IMO. Then point was the use of the word black vs white. Mowos would be condemned as discriminatory, using that logic so are the mobos.

Yes. Over the centuries is white folk really have been ground underfoot by black people.

[Beefster]

Yes because going to a Jewish place of worship dressed up as someone from the Nazi party is the same as dressing up as a character from a TV show right enough. :rolleyes:

They aren't the same thing but you seem to be able to take context into account with one example but not the other. Blacking up is really only okay if you ignore history.

[hibsbollah]

It really shouldn't be an issue to dress up as someone from a different ethnic background to yourself but unfortunately in the culture and times that we live in, where people love to be offended by everything and anything, it is.

I would therefore avoid dressing up as any non-white person, if it involves changing the colour of your skin.

I have never met anyone who 'loves being offended by everything'. People are generally offended by things they find offensive.

You can only think that there are lots of people who enjoy being offended in our 'culture' or this is part of 'the times we live in' if you read a certain type of newspaper and are somewhat detached from reality.

[CapitalGreen]

Its a form of descrimination IMO. Then point was the use of the word black vs white. Mowos would be condemned as discriminatory, using that logic so are the mobos.

Who do the MOBOs discriminate against?

[beensaidbefore]

Yes. Over the centuries is white folk really have been ground underfoot by black people.

What I'm trying to get at is, you are allowed to be pro quite a few things, including pro black. Society has a view that anything that is pro white is racist. Whilst it is pretty difficult to argue its not, pro black views are not considered so.

Whilst I understand them historical context, I feel that a more forward looking stance would be to avoid pro any colour as by its very inclusion hints at being anti another colour. Why should we make man difference between black and white people?

[danhibees1875]

On the subject, I was scrolling through Facebook and seen a post that was someone as chris kamara - full sky sports news headlines and banners around him. Looked class.

Wish I was artistic enough. That with the scores flashing up from 21/5 would have been a great costume! But no, I'm Neville longbottom...

[Sir David Gray]

They aren't the same thing but you seem to be able to take context into account with one example but not the other. Blacking up is really only okay if you ignore history.

It's not just "blacking up" which is being spoken about here though is it?

That suggests that you are simply dressing up as some random black person for the sake of it, like what used to happen decades ago when people did that to deliberately cause offence.

What's being proposed here is dressing up as a particular character from TV. I'm assuming the person who brought it up, wouldn't just have been painting their face black, they would also have dressed up like Mr T. I honestly don't see any racism in doing that and as far as I'm concerned it actually makes a mockery of real cases of racism which undoubtedly do still exist in the world.

As I said in my original post though, I understand the reaction that doing this is likely to attract and therefore I would steer clear of it.


I have never met anyone who 'loves being offended by everything'. People are generally offended by things they find offensive.

You can only think that there are lots of people who enjoy being offended in our 'culture' or this is part of 'the times we live in' if you read a certain type of newspaper and are somewhat detached from reality.

You obviously aren't looking very hard.

[hibsbollah]

You obviously aren't looking very hard.

It's not a case of not looking for it, I have never met anyone like this. Take my word for it. I doubt I ever will either.

[Scouse Hibee]

I have never met anyone who 'loves being offended by everything'. People are generally offended by things they find offensive.

You can only think that there are lots of people who enjoy being offended in our 'culture' or this is part of 'the times we live in' if you read a certain type of newspaper and are somewhat detached from reality.

Being offended is a choice people make. I doubt there is anyone in existence that chooses to be offended by everything.

[Pretty Boy]

Being offended is a choice people make. I doubt there is anyone in existence that chooses to be offended by everything.

I don't think a lot of people choose to be offended, I think some have the sensitivity or the awareness to realise why others may be.

Personally as a white male from northern Europe I don't feel it's my place to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't be offended by as I happen to be a member of the group which has generally done the most discriminating/offending.

If someone choose to dress up as a Nazi I don't choose to be offended but I can see why a Roma, Sinti, homosexual, disabled or Jewish person may be.

If someone chooses to sing songs about a 300 year old battle and revel in organised slaughter I don't choose to be offended but I can see why Irish Catholics may be.

Equally if someone has a comprehension of the history of blackface and chooses to black up for 'a laugh' I don't personally choose to be offended but I can see why a black person would be.

[beensaidbefore]

There is a mowos. It's called the country music awards.

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

I know I am going over slightly old ground but...

Just noticed a poster on the bridges advertising a singer who is the black Maddonna, is that OK? Would that be OK to have the white Tina Turner for example?

[lapsedhibee]

I know I am going over slightly old ground but...

Just noticed a poster on the bridges advertising a singer who is the black Maddonna, is that OK? Would that be OK to have the white Tina Turner for example?

Probably racially insensitive of me, but I personally take more offence at the misspelling.:lips seal

[CapitalGreen]

I know I am going over slightly old ground but...

Just noticed a poster on the bridges advertising a singer who is the black Maddonna, is that OK? Would that be OK to have the white Tina Turner for example?

Black Madonna is a white DJ, named after the depiction in art of the Mother of Christ being dark skinned. It is not a black tribute act of the pop star formerly married to Guy Ritchie.

[beensaidbefore]

Black Madonna is a white DJ, named after the depiction in art of the Mother of Christ being dark skinned. It is not a black tribute act of the pop star formerly married to Guy Ritchie.

Lol. That explains it then. I did think it was a bit controversial, suppose it still in is but in a different context. Thanks for clearing that up.

[beensaidbefore]

Probably racially insensitive of me, but I personally take more offence at the misspelling.:lips seal

What's that saying again? Everyone loves a smart arse?
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