Just when you thought the Catholic church couldn't get any more out of touch

[Hibbyradge]

Vatican bans Catholics from keeping ashes of loved ones at home

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/vatican-bans-catholics-cremation-ashes-loved-ones-home?

[lyonhibs]

Working link:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/25/vatican-bans-catholics-cremation-ashes-loved-ones-home?

Nothing surprises me with the upper levels of the Catholic Church these days.

[Pretty Boy]

I actually feel a bit sorry for Pope Francis. He's a far more liberal and compassionate man than his immediate predecessors (by the standards of the Catholic Church anyway) but any attempts at reform are being fought every step of the way by the predominantly conservative Cardinals and Bishops appointed by the 2 men who came before him.

The ruling above seems bizarre to those of us who have moved on from slavishly following Catholic doctrine but to to those who retain a devout faith it will make perfect sense. It's why the church will continue to see a decline in attendance and those signing up for the Priesthood.

[Mon Dieu4]

I actually feel a bit sorry for Pope Francis. He's a far more liberal and compassionate man than his immediate predecessors (by the standards of the Catholic Church anyway) but any attempts at reform are being fought every step of the way by the predominantly conservative Cardinals and Bishops appointed by the 2 men who came before him.

The ruling above seems bizarre to those of us who have moved on from slavishly following Catholic doctrine but to to those who retain a devout faith it will make perfect sense. It's why the church will continue to see a decline in attendance and those signing up for the Priesthood.

I totally agree, I'm no fan of the Catholic Church hiarchy however I genuinely like the Pope, he seems a good guy, like anything the self servers will reject change at any point so they can hold on to the power and everything that goes along with it

It's going to have to change sooner rather than later or its going to be in for a big fright imo

[GreenLake]

Maybe there has been a bit of lobbying by sellers of mausoleum and crypt spaces.

[Hibs Class]

"We come from the earth and shall return to the earth" is the justification for this, but it then frowns on scattering ashes on the earth. Illogical as well as condescending and cruel.

[Jack]

"We come from the earth and shall return to the earth" is the justification for this, but it then frowns on scattering ashes on the earth. Illogical as well as condescending and cruel.

I dare say there's another section of the Bible that says it's ok to keep your loved ones ashes in the cupboard under the stairs ... or whatever the equivalent was at the time.

[snooky]

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. What's the problem?
Plenty dust in my hoose. Just sayin'.

[Colr]

"We come from the earth and shall return to the earth" is the justification for this, but it then frowns on scattering ashes on the earth. Illogical as well as condescending and cruel.

How do you mean illogical?

[Hibs Class]

How do you mean illogical?

In the Guardian article, in justifying the ruling the cardinal quoted said "We come from the earth and shall return to the earth", yet the ruling forbids scattering ashes on the earth, stating instead that ashes must be stored in a holy place. Scattering ashes seems the most obvious and logical way of returning to the earth, so banning it seems illogical.

[Sergio sledge]

In the Guardian article, in justifying the ruling the cardinal quoted said "We come from the earth and shall return to the earth", yet the ruling forbids scattering ashes on the earth, stating instead that ashes must be stored in a holy place. Scattering ashes seems the most obvious and logical way of returning to the earth, so banning it seems illogical.

Unless you want to make some money by charging people for burial plots or places to store the ashes, allowing them to scatter them anywhere makes the church no money.

Or maybe I'm just being too cynical...

[Hibrandenburg]

The Catholic Church refused to bury my father in-law because he got cremated.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The Catholic Church refused to bury my father in-law because he got cremated.

Exavtly - i thought catholics werent supposed to be cremated, so this is a moot point?

[Pretty Boy]

Exavtly - i thought catholics werent supposed to be cremated, so this is a moot point?

The church has permitted cremation since the 1960s. They only forbid it if it's chosen as a denial/disbelief of the basic Catholic teachings about death and everlasting life.

It's sonething that people without a belief in Catholic teachings won't get. Catholics revere the body as the carrier of the oils of Baptism, Confirmation and the last rites. Their compromise on allowing cremation was that the remains of the body (ashes) should be treated with the same reverence as a body would be and should be buried or placed in a sacred place and not scattered or placed on display. This isn't really a new instruction, just a confirmation of an older one.

As I said above it seems a bit strange to those of us who don't, or no longer, hold the churches teachings in much regard but to those who do then it's probably what they believe or desire anyway.

[beensaidbefore]

The church has permitted cremation since the 1960s. They only forbid it if it's chosen as a denial/disbelief of the basic Catholic teachings about death and everlasting life.

It's sonething that people without a belief in Catholic teachings won't get. Catholics revere the body as the carrier of the oils of Baptism, Confirmation and the last rites. Their compromise on allowing cremation was that the remains of the body (ashes) should be treated with the same reverence as a body would be and should be buried or placed in a sacred place and not scattered or placed on display. This isn't really a new instruction, just a confirmation of an older one.

As I said above it seems a bit strange to those of us who don't, or no longer, hold the churches teachings in much regard but to those who do then it's probably what they believe or desire anyway.

But it's alright to slag off the catholics without really understanding. With the other thread on the cake on the go, it highlights that religion is a fair target.

I am not religious but it gets on my goat that sexuality race etc are afforded protection whilst religion is seen as fair game. This especially true of Christian and Muslim followers. Less acceptable to slag off Judaism of course. Imagine the thread title said Jewish instead of Catholic!

[Colr]

In the Guardian article, in justifying the ruling the cardinal quoted said "We come from the earth and shall return to the earth", yet the ruling forbids scattering ashes on the earth, stating instead that ashes must be stored in a holy place. Scattering ashes seems the most obvious and logical way of returning to the earth, so banning it seems illogical.

This ruling comes from the Pope, surely?

[Hibrandenburg]

But it's alright to slag off the catholics without really understanding. With the other thread on the cake on the go, it highlights that religion is a fair target.

I am not religious but it gets on my goat that sexuality race etc are afforded protection whilst religion is seen as fair game. This especially true of Christian and Muslim followers. Less acceptable to slag off Judaism of course. Imagine the thread title said Jewish instead of Catholic!

I think the general consensus is that you can't change your race or sexuality and for that reason you shouldn't have to defend yourself for what you can't change. Religion like it or not is a personal choice, even religion itself recognises that fact.

[Hibrandenburg]

The church has permitted cremation since the 1960s. They only forbid it if it's chosen as a denial/disbelief of the basic Catholic teachings about death and everlasting life.

It's sonething that people without a belief in Catholic teachings won't get. Catholics revere the body as the carrier of the oils of Baptism, Confirmation and the last rites. Their compromise on allowing cremation was that the remains of the body (ashes) should be treated with the same reverence as a body would be and should be buried or placed in a sacred place and not scattered or placed on display. This isn't really a new instruction, just a confirmation of an older one.

As I said above it seems a bit strange to those of us who don't, or no longer, hold the churches teachings in much regard but to those who do then it's probably what they believe or desire anyway.

My father-in-law was a child during WW2 and one of the founding members of the peace movement in Germany. He was so traumatised by what his parents generation had done that he decided he wanted to be cremated like the millions of Jews in the death camps as a mark of solidarity with them. He was a practising Catholic all his days but his church deserted him at the end.

[Pretty Boy]

My father-in-law was a child during WW2 and one of the founding members of the peace movement in Germany. He was so traumatised by what his parents generation had done that he decided he wanted to be cremated like the millions of Jews in the death camps as a mark of solidarity with them. He was a practising Catholic all his days but his church deserted him at the end.

I'm not defending the Church stance by any means, it's archaic and not for me.

Until the late 1990s, despite allowing cremation, the Church required that any religious service, including mass, took place with the body present intact. Ashes weren't permitted at any service and and as far I'm aware that would include a service prior to internment. Obviously I've no idea of the time scale of your family situation but that may explain it, if not excuse it. Nowadays ashes should be permitted to be present at both a mass or another ceremony.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm not defending the Church stance by any means, it's archaic and not for me.

Until the late 1990s, despite allowing cremation, the Church required that any religious service, including mass, took place with the body present intact. Ashes weren't permitted at any service and and as far I'm aware that would include a service prior to internment. Obviously I've no idea of the time scale of your family situation but that may explain it, if not excuse it. Nowadays ashes should be permitted to be present at both a mass or another ceremony.

Wasn't having a bite at you PB, apologies if it read that way.

[Pretty Boy]

Wasn't having a bite at you PB, apologies if it read that way.

No worries, never took it as such.

[Mr White]

But it's alright to slag off the catholics without really understanding. With the other thread on the cake on the go, it highlights that religion is a fair target.

I am not religious but it gets on my goat that sexuality race etc are afforded protection whilst religion is seen as fair game. This especially true of Christian and Muslim followers. Less acceptable to slag off Judaism of course. Imagine the thread title said Jewish instead of Catholic!

Religion absolutely is fair game imo whilst people with religious views successfully exert disproportionate influence over a society with regards to public policy and the legal status people of a given persuasion can (or more often can't ) attain.

I live in Northern Ireland and I'm quite familiar with the issues raised by the subject of the other thread. While I don't really care too much about anything the Vatican has to say, I can see why this particular stance draws criticism and I can't say I've got any sympathy for anyone offended by that criticism tbh.

[Onceinawhile]

I think the general consensus is that you can't change your race or sexuality and for that reason you shouldn't have to defend yourself for what you can't change. Religion like it or not is a personal choice, even religion itself recognises that fact.

Indeed.

[beensaidbefore]

I think the general consensus is that you can't change your race or sexuality and for that reason you shouldn't have to defend yourself for what you can't change. Religion like it or not is a personal choice, even religion itself recognises that fact.

That's a fair point you make.

[beensaidbefore]

Religion absolutely is fair game imo whilst people with religious views successfully exert disproportionate influence over a society with regards to public policy and the legal status people of a given persuasion can (or more often can't ) attain.

I live in Northern Ireland and I'm quite familiar with the issues raised by the subject of the other thread. While I don't really care too much about anything the Vatican has to say, I can see why this particular stance draws criticism and I can't say I've got any sympathy for anyone offended by that criticism tbh.

Let me be clear I'm not offended, and tbh your are probably in a far better place to pass judgment on the impact religion. Iv never had an interest and never been directly affected by it so not really bothered for myself. I work with older people to whom religion is still very important and to see their beliefs dismissed as worthless doesn't sit right with me. I'm not talking about extreme views or hatred etc, but their belief in God, good deeds, and genuine 'Christian' spirit. For that to constantly be dismissed is hurtful for them, and that is the bit for me.

As I said, not religious, don't believe in God, but I do still have respect for the beliefs of others.

BTW, not implying you don't!
😉

[Mr White]

Let me be clear I'm not offended, and tbh your are probably in a far better place to pass judgment on the impact religion. Iv never had an interest and never been directly affected by it so not really bothered for myself. I work with older people to whom religion is still very important and to see their beliefs dismissed as worthless doesn't sit right with me. I'm not talking about extreme views or hatred etc, but their belief in God, good deeds, and genuine 'Christian' spirit. For that to constantly be dismissed is hurtful for them, and that is the bit for me.

As I said, not religious, don't believe in God, but I do still have respect for the beliefs of others.

BTW, not implying you don't!
😉

No worries, I didn't think you were offended, I realised you were talking about others who could be. I have a lot of relatives who are practicing roman catholics in ROI and while I recognise they get some positives from their beliefs and it would never be my intention to offend them or others with my opinions about the faith, the bigger picture is that Christianity exerts disproportionate influence on lives across the british Isles.

I'm much more concerned about defending democracy personally. At the moment that is actively being blocked (in my opinion) by religious interference in Northern Ireland in the case of having a vote on whether or not to allow gay marriage.

[Hibs Class]

This ruling comes from the Pope, surely?

I don't know, it may do, I just saw the quote from the cardinal. Either way, it is presented as a church view.

[beensaidbefore]

No worries, I didn't think you were offended, I realised you were talking about others who could be. I have a lot of relatives who are practicing roman catholics in ROI and while I recognise they get some positives from their beliefs and it would never be my intention to offend them or others with my opinions about the faith, the bigger picture is that Christianity exerts disproportionate influence on lives across the british Isles.

I'm much more concerned about defending democracy personally. At the moment that is actively being blocked (in my opinion) by religious interference in Northern Ireland in the case of having a vote on whether or not to allow gay marriage.

It shows how ignorant I am on the matter of NI affairs, I wasn't aware there was even a difference in the laws around this compared with Scotland until reading it on here.

[Colr]

I don't know, it may do, I just saw the quote from the cardinal. Either way, it is presented as a church view.

I thought the Pope speaks for God.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Surely if you believe that God created the heavens and the earth then the whole world is 'a holy place' ........ I believe myself to be a Christian, even though I'd have a job proving it in court, but I simply cant see why any church would limit what it considers to be 'a holy place' to a small building squeezed between the local TESCO and a KWIK FIT for example.

My mum's ashes were scattered on Calton hill with a panoramic view of the city she was born and grew up in .... a more 'holy' place I cant imagine.

[One Day Soon]

No worries, I didn't think you were offended, I realised you were talking about others who could be. I have a lot of relatives who are practicing roman catholics in ROI and while I recognise they get some positives from their beliefs and it would never be my intention to offend them or others with my opinions about the faith, the bigger picture is that Christianity exerts disproportionate influence on lives across the british Isles.

I'm much more concerned about defending democracy personally. At the moment that is actively being blocked (in my opinion) by religious interference in Northern Ireland in the case of having a vote on whether or not to allow gay marriage.


I really don't think that is the bigger picture. The bigger picture is the right of individuals to practice their faiths (or none), their sexualities, and their cultures free of the external and very often ignorant commentaries and prescriptions of others. That's not a dig at you, it is a wider comment/observation.

I would place the disproportionate influence of Christianity across the British Isles a very significant distance behind that of, in no particular order:

1. Newspapers
2. Social media
3. Television
4. Advertising industry
5. Music industry
6. Cinema
7. Celebrities
8. Politicians
9. Apple and Amazon
10. Trade Unions
11. Large corporate industry

The central and core message of Christianity is love. Everything else is embellishment - both right and wrong. What are the central and core messages of the organisations I have listed?

[Mr White]

I really don't think that is the bigger picture. The bigger picture is the right of individuals to practice their faiths (or none), their sexualities, and their cultures free of the external and very often ignorant commentaries and prescriptions of others. That's not a dig at you, it is a wider comment/observation.

I would place the disproportionate influence of Christianity across the British Isles a very significant distance behind that of, in no particular order:

1. Newspapers
2. Social media
3. Television
4. Advertising industry
5. Music industry
6. Cinema
7. Celebrities
8. Politicians
9. Apple and Amazon
10. Trade Unions
11. Large corporate industry

The central and core message of Christianity is love. Everything else is embellishment - both right and wrong. What are the central and core messages of the organisations I have listed?
Christianity absolutely does exert disproportionate influence, effectively interfering with democratic process at times, where I live.

[Hibrandenburg]

I really don't think that is the bigger picture. The bigger picture is the right of individuals to practice their faiths (or none), their sexualities, and their cultures free of the external and very often ignorant commentaries and prescriptions of others. That's not a dig at you, it is a wider comment/observation.

I would place the disproportionate influence of Christianity across the British Isles a very significant distance behind that of, in no particular order:

1. Newspapers
2. Social media
3. Television
4. Advertising industry
5. Music industry
6. Cinema
7. Celebrities
8. Politicians
9. Apple and Amazon
10. Trade Unions
11. Large corporate industry

The central and core message of Christianity is love. Everything else is embellishment - both right and wrong. What are the central and core messages of the organisations I have listed?

I would wager that Christianity has a larger influence on all on that list, certainly more than the influence the things on that list have on Christianity.