Scottish Premier League Attendances

[Real Emerald]

Just watching the highlights of Partick Thistle v Ross County in front of a virtual Junior football crowd of 2700. It makes me so angry when you here the media take great delight when the bigger clubs get relegated. Great for Hamilton, great for the Highlands etc.. All this at the expense of Scottish football which is now a laughing stock with a top division full of utter dross with no support. Good luck to all these teams as they're there on merit but Scottish football is looking worse than ever because of it.

We have to find a way in Scotland to allow the smaller teams to progress but also protect the bigger clubs.

[Highland_Hibee]

Hate to admit but Budge has a point there are simply too many senior clubs in Scottish football to spread over the population. Think of all the clubs over the Angus area. Your Brechins and your Montroses and your Forfars of this world. All be lucky pulling in crowds of 500-1000 max? Never going to be anything more than fodder for League one and below.


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[greenginger]

The attendance at the Morton v Aberdeen semi was only 16,183. Could easily have been held at Easter Road or even the PBS.

But no , they've got to be dragged to Hampden, it must have been like playing in empty aeroplane hanger.

[High-On-Hibs]

Just watching the highlights of Partick Thistle v Ross County in front of a virtual Junior football crowd of 2700. It makes me so angry when you here the media take great delight when the bigger clubs get relegated. Great for Hamilton, great for the Highlands etc.. All this at the expense of Scottish football which is now a laughing stock with a top division full of utter dross with no support. Good luck to all these teams as they're there on merit but Scottish football is looking worse than ever because of it.

We have to find a way in Scotland to allow the smaller teams to progress but also protect the bigger clubs.

Protect the bigger clubs how? By not allowing them to be relegated when they perform poorly over a season?

There's only 2 big clubs in Scotland that get protection and i'd never want us to be one of them.

[Ozyhibby]

Protect the bigger clubs how? By not allowing them to be relegated when they perform poorly over a season?

There's only 2 big clubs in Scotland that get protection and i'd never want us to be one of them.

There is no relegation in Australian rugby league and it doesn't harm the completion at all.


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[LaMotta]

Hate to admit but Budge has a point there are simply too many senior clubs in Scottish football to spread over the population. Think of all the clubs over the Angus area. Your Brechins and your Montroses and your Forfars of this world. All be lucky pulling in crowds of 500-1000 max? Never going to be anything more than fodder for League one and below.


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Her argument makes no sense. Reducing the amount of senior clubs would achieve nothing.

[Highland_Hibee]

Her argument makes no sense. Reducing the amount of senior clubs would achieve nothing.

At this stage no you are right it would achieve nothing but fall out. In a perfect world two or three of these clubs would amalgamate. They are achieving nothing but obscurity as individual entities but perhaps if they were all pulling together in the same direction? Who knows.


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[MWHIBBIES]

If Scottish football hadn't been largely dominated by 2 clubs for its entire history it would be much, much healthier. Glory hunting fuds with no connection to the bigot brothers traveling from all over is what is killing Scottish football.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Its a tough one for the smaller clubs ..... the funny thing is that for the most part the bigger clubs are doing pretty well attendance wise, even Dundee Utd have held up well since being relegated, in fact I would guess their crowds are considerably better than Dundee's.

I have always said that Partick should be doing so much better, surely with the catchment area they have an average of 7,000 shouldn't be beyond them. For me they should always have actively marketed themselves as the sane alternative to the bigot brothers, their proximity to the OF should be used to their advantage. There are a few clubs who should be doing better on top of that.
ICT are the one that get my bloody goat, a rubbish ground miles from the nearest boozers, a potential support half of whom still cant get over the merger of two clubs from a backwater league that nobody else gives a damn about. You would have thought that the fact that they were about to enter a whole new league system would have made them see the sense of why a merger was a logical way to go and a chance to bury the hatchet on old grievances.

when they won the cup you would have thought that would galvanize the city behind them, but that doesn't appear to have happened ....... In fact it wouldn't hurt if they dropped this convoluted mouthful of a name, changed the club's name to Inverness City, brought Clachnacuddin on board, changed colours and found some way, any way, to raise money to build a proper ground closer to the town centre. They wouldn't be the first Scottish club to change their name or their colours ... Dundee Utd have done both, in fact they have changed colours 3 times from green to black & white to tangerine ..... Aberdeen used to play in black & yellow .... Hertz played in red white & blue ... I dare say there are others.

Its true that half of Scotland's clubs are never going to be anything more than makeweights, but that has always been the case and if the example of ICT is anything to go by mergers are about as likely to succeed as space aliens turning up on Leith Links ...... But there are a few clubs who do have potential to be a force again, Dunfermline being a case in point, a more than decent stadium and if they could get folk in their catchment area to stop supporting bloody Rangers they might have a fighting chance.

The truth is though that too many of our clubs are surviving on crowds that make it seem incredible that they are still full time .... St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Ross County and especially Hamilton being cases in point ..... unless we can find a way to get their local communities to come out and support them week in week out and not just at cup finals we could be looking at a lot of them going part time if things don't change. I exempt Ross County from that, their crowds are incredible for a town smaller than Peebles.

[Dashing Bob S]

Her argument makes no sense. Reducing the amount of senior clubs would achieve nothing.

It's absolute nonsense. People who nothing about football and how fan loyalties are formed bleat this stuff sheepishly from time to time. What they refuse to do is tell us how getting rid of smaller clubs would improve our game. There is no logic in it.

[mjhibby]

It's absolute nonsense. People who nothing about football and how fan loyalties are formed bleat this stuff sheepishly from time to time. What they refuse to do is tell us how getting rid of smaller clubs would improve our game. There is no logic in it.

Budge seems only doing what she is doing as an ego trip. She thinks that every time she speaks we should all stand up and take notice. I'll take notice of what she says when she instructs her management team from condoning diving players like walker,when she actively rids the club of their sizable amount of bigots and stops the disgusting songs they sing. Do that hen then I'll listen. Until then don't lecture us on something you know very little about. Rant over.

[Ozyhibby]

Its a tough one for the smaller clubs ..... the funny thing is that for the most part the bigger clubs are doing pretty well attendance wise, even Dundee Utd have held up well since being relegated, in fact I would guess their crowds are considerably better than Dundee's.

I have always said that Partick should be doing so much better, surely with the catchment area they have an average of 7,000 shouldn't be beyond them. For me they should always have actively marketed themselves as the sane alternative to the bigot brothers, their proximity to the OF should be used to their advantage. There are a few clubs who should be doing better on top of that.
ICT are the one that get my bloody goat, a rubbish ground miles from the nearest boozers, a potential support half of whom still cant get over the merger of two clubs from a backwater league that nobody else gives a damn about. You would have thought that the fact that they were about to enter a whole new league system would have made them see the sense of why a merger was a logical way to go and a chance to bury the hatchet on old grievances.

when they won the cup you would have thought that would galvanize the city behind them, but that doesn't appear to have happened ....... In fact it wouldn't hurt if they dropped this convoluted mouthful of a name, changed the club's name to Inverness City, brought Clachnacuddin on board, changed colours and found some way, any way, to raise money to build a proper ground closer to the town centre. They wouldn't be the first Scottish club to change their name or their colours ... Dundee Utd have done both, in fact they have changed colours 3 times from green to black & white to tangerine ..... Aberdeen used to play in black & yellow .... Hertz played in red white & blue ... I dare say there are others.

Its true that half of Scotland's clubs are never going to be anything more than makeweights, but that has always been the case and if the example of ICT is anything to go by mergers are about as likely to succeed as space aliens turning up on Leith Links ...... But there are a few clubs who do have potential to be a force again, Dunfermline being a case in point, a more than decent stadium and if they could get folk in their catchment area to stop supporting bloody Rangers they might have a fighting chance.

The truth is though that too many of our clubs are surviving on crowds that make it seem incredible that they are still full time .... St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Ross County and especially Hamilton being cases in point ..... unless we can find a way to get their local communities to come out and support them week in week out and not just at cup finals we could be looking at a lot of them going part time if things don't change. I exempt Ross County from that, their crowds are incredible for a town smaller than Peebles.

I agree Dunfermline have been appallingly run for a long time now but it's not lack of support that's the problem it's just that it's a small town. I can't think of a single town in England of only 50k people that has a club as well supported as Dunfermline?
Scotland has a small population that supports too many clubs most of whom are subsidised by the top clubs. Take away the subsidy and there would be a considerable amount of consolidation.


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[Real Emerald]

Protect the bigger clubs how? By not allowing them to be relegated when they perform poorly over a season?

There's only 2 big clubs in Scotland that get protection and i'd never want us to be one of them.

Maybe if the the top league was bigger or promotion from the championship wasn't so difficult. When teams like Hibs, Dundee Utd etc have a bad season and end up being relegated it becomes very difficult to get back. You'll never stop the wee teams from being there but you may be able to make the set up a bit easier for the bigger clubs to survive.

[Speedy]

Its a tough one for the smaller clubs ..... the funny thing is that for the most part the bigger clubs are doing pretty well attendance wise, even Dundee Utd have held up well since being relegated, in fact I would guess their crowds are considerably better than Dundee's.

I have always said that Partick should be doing so much better, surely with the catchment area they have an average of 7,000 shouldn't be beyond them. For me they should always have actively marketed themselves as the sane alternative to the bigot brothers, their proximity to the OF should be used to their advantage. There are a few clubs who should be doing better on top of that.
ICT are the one that get my bloody goat, a rubbish ground miles from the nearest boozers, a potential support half of whom still cant get over the merger of two clubs from a backwater league that nobody else gives a damn about. You would have thought that the fact that they were about to enter a whole new league system would have made them see the sense of why a merger was a logical way to go and a chance to bury the hatchet on old grievances.

when they won the cup you would have thought that would galvanize the city behind them, but that doesn't appear to have happened ....... In fact it wouldn't hurt if they dropped this convoluted mouthful of a name, changed the club's name to Inverness City, brought Clachnacuddin on board, changed colours and found some way, any way, to raise money to build a proper ground closer to the town centre. They wouldn't be the first Scottish club to change their name or their colours ... Dundee Utd have done both, in fact they have changed colours 3 times from green to black & white to tangerine ..... Aberdeen used to play in black & yellow .... Hertz played in red white & blue ... I dare say there are others.

Its true that half of Scotland's clubs are never going to be anything more than makeweights, but that has always been the case and if the example of ICT is anything to go by mergers are about as likely to succeed as space aliens turning up on Leith Links ...... But there are a few clubs who do have potential to be a force again, Dunfermline being a case in point, a more than decent stadium and if they could get folk in their catchment area to stop supporting bloody Rangers they might have a fighting chance.

The truth is though that too many of our clubs are surviving on crowds that make it seem incredible that they are still full time .... St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Ross County and especially Hamilton being cases in point ..... unless we can find a way to get their local communities to come out and support them week in week out and not just at cup finals we could be looking at a lot of them going part time if things don't change. I exempt Ross County from that, their crowds are incredible for a town smaller than Peebles.

How would we feel about a merger with Hearts playing at, say, Murray field?

Not very happy I'd imagine so it's a bit unfair to expect other club to drop their history of liver some abstract notion of how big a club should be to succeed.

[InchHibby]

I personally think Ann Budge doesn't know enough about Football to make comments regarding what she thinks is wrong with Scottish football.
What we mustn't forget is that those supporters of teams such as your Montrose's, Forfar said and the likes, have supporters just as passionate about their club as we are of ours.
The problem is two fold, the first being the greed over the years of the so called big two over the years, wanting more than their fair share of all monies brought into the game via sponsorship, to etc.
The second being the amount of money Sky, BT and BBC give to the Scottish game. 100 million, which is still peanuts, would go along way to sorting the problem out and I think, allowing all present teams to stay as they are.
There's just as much rubbish down in the English leagues as we think there is up here. They get approx. 7 Billion, I think a pawltry 100 million from that being invested correctly and evenly would go a long way to securing the good majority of the present Scottish clubs.
Just my thoughts, but based on the greedy minority of clubs, none more so than the bigot brothers.

[danhibees1875]

It's absolute nonsense. People who nothing about football and how fan loyalties are formed bleat this stuff sheepishly from time to time. What they refuse to do is tell us how getting rid of smaller clubs would improve our game. There is no logic in it.

Is the argument that they should merge though? I agree that Scotland has too many teams in the top set up. I think it results in overbearing costs for teams that can't cope with them. I'd like to see 2 leagues of 16 with a good regionalised pyramid system after that - no clubs should have to merge (I agree , it's not right for the fans in the slightest).

I would hope that this would give more to play for, as the jumps from one league to another would be substantial.

[superfurryhibby]

It's absolute nonsense. People who nothing about football and how fan loyalties are formed bleat this stuff sheepishly from time to time. What they refuse to do is tell us how getting rid of smaller clubs would improve our game. There is no logic in it.

Ok, but how does having two teams in Falkirk or three from Fife, three from Angus etc, etc add to our game? All for tradition, but only up to a point. There are too many teams, too few supporters and ultimately the too many people in these areas following the Glasgow teams.

[Bostonhibby]

Her argument makes no sense. Reducing the amount of senior clubs would achieve nothing.
Might give them a better chance of getting that elusive league cup win?

It's getting embarrassing that such a famous big club have been incapable of winning it for so long

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[Smartie]

I can only imagine those who are in favour of mergers were not at any of the Mercer rallies. It sounds like a decent idea until it's your team.

TBH I think that it is of great credit to Scottish football that "wee teams" can do so well. I'd rather applaud the fact that Hamilton can bring through as many good, young players as they have and hold their own in the top league own the crowds they have. It is of great credit to the Highland teams that in just over 20 years both clubs have won a domestic trophy and now hold their own in the top league. St Johnstone had some decent results in Europe a couple of years back. Most of these teams will give the OF (huge clubs by comparison) a very good game at home and all of them have picked up results in Glasgow. IMO these are actually some of the success stories of the Scottish league - wee teams punching above their weight.

The problem is with the bigger clubs under-achieving - ourselves, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United have all been out of the top league in recent years as a result of various different types of mismanagement. The finger should be pointed at the squandering of resources at these clubs. If they could learn to use their resources as wisely as the wee teams then our game would be in much better shape.

I think we miss the point regularly when talking about the problems with Scottish football and I've never really understood the link between the number of teams in each league, the performance of the National side and the health of Scottish football in general.

I think there are 2 main problems - the lack of good players and endless negativity. We need to get as many youngsters playing regularly as we can, and we need to coach the best of them properly. We also need to stop giving our game a kicking and learn a thing or 2 about self-promotion from our friends down South. I also think we need to be a bit more radical in the way we approach change and novel ideas (such as summer football).

All this talk of number of clubs, as if a few mergers, killing some well-established and much-loved clubs and then changing the number of teams in our top league is going to make a difference to the state of our game is imo nonsense.

[Juice-Terry]

If Scottish football hadn't been largely dominated by 2 clubs for its entire history it would be much, much healthier. Glory hunting fuds with no connection to the bigot brothers traveling from all over is what is killing Scottish football.

It. Nailed.

[Bostonhibby]

It. Nailed.
Agree, what happens after the wee clubs are forced to merge but the same Glasgow led culture prevails and crowds/playing standards remain the same?

Do Dundee United and Dundee merge? Hibs and the yams?

New clubs get a chance under the current structure, Edinburgh city, Annan, Ross county, jeez the rangers got themselves promoted three times and won the petrofac cup. Even celtc don't have that one!

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[Mikeystewart]

Is this thread meant to be ironic?


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[Michael]

We have to find a way in Scotland to allow the smaller teams to progress but also protect the bigger clubs.

Calm doon, Michel Platini.

[green day]

Agree, what happens after the wee clubs are forced to merge but the same Glasgow led culture prevails and crowds/playing standards remain the same?

Do Dundee United and Dundee merge? Hibs and the yams?

New clubs get a chance under the current structure, Edinburgh city, Annan, Ross county, jeez the rangers got themselves promoted three times and won the petrofac cup. Even celtc don't have that one!


Agreed,

My sister stays in Bath and my bro in law goes to Bath City now and then. Bath has a population approaching 100000 (maybe twice that of Inverness?) and they get attendances of about 300-500 which is really poor.

Its a small decrepit stadium with a team playing in the conference - but they are part of a pyramid structure so always have a chance - and are the local team for a small band of fans who dont follow Bath Rugby.

I have no issue with a pyramid structure which allows the likes of Edinburgh City to be promoted to the top leagues.

Likewise I have no issue that Hibs were relegated through chronic mismanagement - thems the breaks.

As for Budge? I know a Raith ST holder who was in the directors lounge for a formal remembrance thing at Tynescastle and after asking him if he was a Hearts fan she smiled and said to him "Ah yes, Raith Rovers, we like your team because we always beat you".

She knows nothing about these teams and - in the same manner as the Celtic hierarchy - is happy to take the points from diddy teams but then blames them for lack of Euro / National team success.

[where'stheslope]

This subject is very evocative, as we talk about peoples and towns history!
Most teams in our League system were born out of mining communities and other big manual industries.
Now these towns and some cities have nothing in left in the way of industry and cling to their teams as a wee bit of what was before.
I know that they are now not well supported, but they are not any less loved than Hibs in Leith!
Mostly their crowds disappeared with the industry.
Over the years Hibs and Hearts crowds go up and down depending on how well they are doing, in these small community teams they seem to have the same amount turning up year after year regardless of their league position, their grounds can be a wee bit derelict and their team run on a shoe string but they are still well loved by loyal supporters and 1 big cup draw can see them kept going for years.
Just go back to 4 years ago when Rangers were in the 2 Division, Cameras at all the games they played in so extra monies for those teams involved.
This season look at the amount of TV time we have had since Rangers left this division, all of a sudden not worth TV time from our division.
For me, that is the biggest problem in Scottish Football, everyone in the Media pander to the Old Firm so everyone else gets scraps from the table!!!

[The Mook]

I agree Dunfermline have been appallingly run for a long time now but it's not lack of support that's the problem it's just that it's a small town. I can't think of a single town in England of only 50k people that has a club as well supported as Dunfermline?
Scotland has a small population that supports too many clubs most of whom are subsidised by the top clubs. Take away the subsidy and there would be a considerable amount of consolidation.


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Burnley, town of 70k and always been better supported than the Pars

[hibstag]

Its a tough one for the smaller clubs ..... the funny thing is that for the most part the bigger clubs are doing pretty well attendance wise, even Dundee Utd have held up well since being relegated, in fact I would guess their crowds are considerably better than Dundee's.

I have always said that Partick should be doing so much better, surely with the catchment area they have an average of 7,000 shouldn't be beyond them. For me they should always have actively marketed themselves as the sane alternative to the bigot brothers, their proximity to the OF should be used to their advantage. There are a few clubs who should be doing better on top of that.
ICT are the one that get my bloody goat, a rubbish ground miles from the nearest boozers, a potential support half of whom still cant get over the merger of two clubs from a backwater league that nobody else gives a damn about. You would have thought that the fact that they were about to enter a whole new league system would have made them see the sense of why a merger was a logical way to go and a chance to bury the hatchet on old grievances.

when they won the cup you would have thought that would galvanize the city behind them, but that doesn't appear to have happened ....... In fact it wouldn't hurt if they dropped this convoluted mouthful of a name, changed the club's name to Inverness City, brought Clachnacuddin on board, changed colours and found some way, any way, to raise money to build a proper ground closer to the town centre. They wouldn't be the first Scottish club to change their name or their colours ... Dundee Utd have done both, in fact they have changed colours 3 times from green to black & white to tangerine ..... Aberdeen used to play in black & yellow .... Hertz played in red white & blue ... I dare say there are others.

Its true that half of Scotland's clubs are never going to be anything more than makeweights, but that has always been the case and if the example of ICT is anything to go by mergers are about as likely to succeed as space aliens turning up on Leith Links ...... But there are a few clubs who do have potential to be a force again, Dunfermline being a case in point, a more than decent stadium and if they could get folk in their catchment area to stop supporting bloody Rangers they might have a fighting chance.

The truth is though that too many of our clubs are surviving on crowds that make it seem incredible that they are still full time .... St Johnstone, Kilmarnock, Ross County and especially Hamilton being cases in point ..... unless we can find a way to get their local communities to come out and support them week in week out and not just at cup finals we could be looking at a lot of them going part time if things don't change. I exempt Ross County from that, their crowds are incredible for a town smaller than Peebles.

but surely sustained Premier leaugue status and a cup win is the very example of success for a merged team from the highlands formed in 1993 also Ross county have also moved through the League system in a substsainable way (and won a national trophy at our expense last year)

The set up and style of Scottish football has changed teams have adapted to their level iam unsure what your case in point is ... all these clubs you mentioned have sustained Premier league status where a certain 'big' clubs have not, if anything we need to look at ways of incorporating more clubs at the top level QOS, Raith and Dunfermilne from my recent visits there all look like clubs able to make the step up in terms of infastructure

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

For a country that copies almost everything England does, what surprises me is that we've never really followed suit in terms of the overall "structure" we're too comfortable keeping the likes of East Stirling and the likes in the set up than promoting teams for sporting achievements. English football has about 30 levels and goes almost all the way down to amateur. a proper set up

Scottish football needs a radical overhaul with a clear blueprint given to show all levels how to progress, pricing policy and fans engagement. i'm not saying lots would, but i'd be incliend to believe that if we had a proper structure in place, some fans who glory hunt to the old firm would head along to their local clubs to watch them if it was adequately priced and entertaining.

a larger league where we play teams less excites fans. i've always felt a top flight of 16 would be eprfect for our country. home and away is 30 games, we can oven keep the spilt. which would then take us up to 37 games. Have a second league of a similar size then a simple pyramid structure in place to allow promotion/relegation to those that deservge it most. we could then introduce a "community shield" league winners vs cup winners like in England as another game with the teams involved getting more money.

Too many dinasaurs running our game with no interest in changing it. Shrot term we may suffer, but longer term this is the way forward in my eyes. Under 5's go free, under a tenner for under 10s. max price £25 an adult ticket (if rangers and celtic want to charge more when they play each other then let them bash on). we need initiatives to get fans along supporting clubs and engagement between clubs and fans.

Tbh the above is kinda just an ikea idea. here's my thoughts, put it together for yourself! ha so many ideas but its wasted on the scottish fitbaw dinasaurs

[Ozyhibby]

For a country that copies almost everything England does, what surprises me is that we've never really followed suit in terms of the overall "structure" we're too comfortable keeping the likes of East Stirling and the likes in the set up than promoting teams for sporting achievements. English football has about 30 levels and goes almost all the way down to amateur. a proper set up

Scottish football needs a radical overhaul with a clear blueprint given to show all levels how to progress, pricing policy and fans engagement. i'm not saying lots would, but i'd be incliend to believe that if we had a proper structure in place, some fans who glory hunt to the old firm would head along to their local clubs to watch them if it was adequately priced and entertaining.

a larger league where we play teams less excites fans. i've always felt a top flight of 16 would be eprfect for our country. home and away is 30 games, we can oven keep the spilt. which would then take us up to 37 games. Have a second league of a similar size then a simple pyramid structure in place to allow promotion/relegation to those that deservge it most. we could then introduce a "community shield" league winners vs cup winners like in England as another game with the teams involved getting more money.

Too many dinasaurs running our game with no interest in changing it. Shrot term we may suffer, but longer term this is the way forward in my eyes. Under 5's go free, under a tenner for under 10s. max price £25 an adult ticket (if rangers and celtic want to charge more when they play each other then let them bash on). we need initiatives to get fans along supporting clubs and engagement between clubs and fans.

Tbh the above is kinda just an ikea idea. here's my thoughts, put it together for yourself! ha so many ideas but its wasted on the scottish fitbaw dinasaurs

30 games is not enough. Hibs could not afford the hit to our finances, we have a huge amount of fixed costs that need paying.


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[jdships]

Her argument makes no sense. Reducing the amount of senior clubs would achieve nothing.

Agree totally :thumbsup:
I remember talking about this, years ago , with Bob Crampsey and he quoted Mercer's " Tribalism" jibe and how that was the very essence of football support . You followed YOUR club thro' thick and thin
He went on to ask the question " if you close down a club will their supporters automatically go to another club ? I.E if Forfar closed would all their supporters move to follow say montrose ? Doubt it very much. It could take a generation for any difference to be seen "
Think he was pretty much right as today if people drift away from following a sport they are difficult to win back !!
:hibees

[s.a.m]

Agree totally :thumbsup:
I remember talking about this, years ago , with Bob Crampsey and he quoted Mercer's " Tribalism" jibe and how that was the very essence of football support . You followed YOUR club thro' thick and thin
He went on to ask the question " if you close down a club will their supporters automatically go to another club ? I.E if Forfar closed would all their supporters move to follow say montrose ? Doubt it very much. It could take a generation for any difference to be seen "
Think he was pretty much right as today if people drift away from following a sport they are difficult to win back !!
:hibees

I miss Bob Crampsey ....

[Ozyhibby]

Burnley, town of 70k and always been better supported than the Pars

Burnley is 40% bigger than Dunfermline and Lancashire has 1.5m people in it (as well as a good few other teams).
Dunfermline is growing rapidly as well. Back in 2001 it only had 32k, which shows that they were even better supported back in the day.


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[Smartie]

Burnley is 40% bigger than Dunfermline and Lancashire has 1.5m people in it (as well as a good few other teams).
Dunfermline is growing rapidly as well. Back in 2001 it only had 32k, which shows that they were even better supported back in the day.


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I think they were the main team in Fife back in the day and drew a lot of their fans not just from Dunfermline but from the towns about it.

Sadly, the main team in Fife nowadays is Sevco, following on from the demise of Rangers.

I worked in Dunfermline for a few years and I remember the town was buzzing when Rangers reached the UEFA cup final. It wasn't anything like the same when the Pars reached the Scottish Cup final, which I found really disappointing.

[green day]

Sadly, the main team in Fife nowadays is Sevco, following on from the demise of Rangers.


Thats the same all over - Stirling is Hun central, and the last time I was up in Aviemore mountain biking I had to leave a boozer full of sevco fans when they made it clear a hibs fan wasnt welcome !

[GreenNWhiteArmy]

30 games is not enough. Hibs could not afford the hit to our finances, we have a huge amount of fixed costs that need paying.


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hence why i said the split can remain. it then takes us up to 37 games. if we cannot cut our cloth to lose one game a season its time to give up

[Eyrie]

Agree totally :thumbsup:
I remember talking about this, years ago , with Bob Crampsey and he quoted Mercer's " Tribalism" jibe and how that was the very essence of football support . You followed YOUR club thro' thick and thin
He went on to ask the question " if you close down a club will their supporters automatically go to another club ? I.E if Forfar closed would all their supporters move to follow say montrose ? Doubt it very much. It could take a generation for any difference to be seen "
Think he was pretty much right as today if people drift away from following a sport they are difficult to win back !!
:hibees

More likely that the next generation will follow Man City, Barcelona or Bayern than take any interest in Angus FC playing in a second division, so they'd be lost to Scottish football.

[NAE NOOKIE]

How would we feel about a merger with Hearts playing at, say, Murray field?

Not very happy I'd imagine so it's a bit unfair to expect other club to drop their history of liver some abstract notion of how big a club should be to succeed.

I wouldn't, and that's why I said that mergers are unlikely to work. The difference with the Inverness clubs was that this wasn't putting two clubs together to play in the Highland league, this was pulling resources to enable an Inverness club to be more than just more cannon fodder for the big clubs in Scotland's national leagues, leagues where neither club had ever participated .... If there was ever a situation where a merger might have had a chance this was it, it should have been seen by their fans as a whole new dawn and quite an exciting one, rather than another excuse to keep old rivalries going that may well go back decades, but to most fans of Scotland's league clubs was as significant in the history of Scotland's national leagues as that of Gala Fairydean and Hawick Royal Albert.

Its only my opinion and I know many wont agree, but if you ask me they should have came up with a completely new name for the club and completely new colours ...... now the clubs own supporters refer to it as Caley and red in its strip has been pretty much of an afterthought since they joined the league .... its about as much an equal merger as Mercers Edinburgh Utd would have been and as a result I think they have struggled to get the home support they should have. I know Inverness isn't a big place, but its a hell of a bigger place than Dingwall and historically it has always been a football town ..... the fact that Ross County's crowds are practically on a par with ICT's says it all.

Yes ICT have done OK in the pitch and won the cup, but for me they could have done so much better if they had given some thought to what the identity of the club was going to be in the years following the merger ..... I just cant help thinking that if they had done things better they could have been on a par with Dundee Utd rather than St Johnstone crowd wise.

[resident_Arab]

I can only imagine those who are in favour of mergers were not at any of the Mercer rallies. It sounds like a decent idea until it's your team.

TBH I think that it is of great credit to Scottish football that "wee teams" can do so well. I'd rather applaud the fact that Hamilton can bring through as many good, young players as they have and hold their own in the top league own the crowds they have. It is of great credit to the Highland teams that in just over 20 years both clubs have won a domestic trophy and now hold their own in the top league. St Johnstone had some decent results in Europe a couple of years back. Most of these teams will give the OF (huge clubs by comparison) a very good game at home and all of them have picked up results in Glasgow. IMO these are actually some of the success stories of the Scottish league - wee teams punching above their weight.

The problem is with the bigger clubs under-achieving - ourselves, Rangers, Hearts and Dundee United have all been out of the top league in recent years as a result of various different types of mismanagement. The finger should be pointed at the squandering of resources at these clubs. If they could learn to use their resources as wisely as the wee teams then our game would be in much better shape.

I think we miss the point regularly when talking about the problems with Scottish football and I've never really understood the link between the number of teams in each league, the performance of the National side and the health of Scottish football in general.

I think there are 2 main problems - the lack of good players and endless negativity. We need to get as many youngsters playing regularly as we can, and we need to coach the best of them properly. We also need to stop giving our game a kicking and learn a thing or 2 about self-promotion from our friends down South. I also think we need to be a bit more radical in the way we approach change and novel ideas (such as summer football).

All this talk of number of clubs, as if a few mergers, killing some well-established and much-loved clubs and then changing the number of teams in our top league is going to make a difference to the state of our game is imo nonsense.



Spot on!, especially about the endless negativity when we have a very good product for a country our size and should be talking it up

In our case though, it was a very quick 18 month meltdown after being very consistent over a decade in both league and cups where i'd say most of the other bigger clubs probably looked on at us with a bit of envy, so don't think we have done bad overall, just a total balls up of an 18 month period that you couldn't really make up, and we now need to deal with being relegated and trying to fight our way back up

[jgl07]

Ok, but how does having two teams in Falkirk or three from Fife, three from Angus etc, etc add to our game? All for tradition, but only up to a point. There are too many teams, too few supporters and ultimately the too many people in these areas following the Glasgow teams.
And what would obliterating half the league do?

Bugger all.

For your information there were four clubs in Fife the last time I checked and four from Angus.

There were three in Falkirk until the end of last season. Has the demotion of East Stirlingshire resulted in a an increase in support for Falkirk?

For the benefit of the boneheads - Wallace Mercer, Anne Budge, and all - footballer supporters loyalty is not transferable.

It is not the same a merging supermarkets. When Safeway were sold to Morrisons, they would expect to pick up most of the custom. Despite all evidence soem think that football works the same way.

[The Mook]

Burnley is 40% bigger than Dunfermline and Lancashire has 1.5m people in it (as well as a good few other teams).
Dunfermline is growing rapidly as well. Back in 2001 it only had 32k, which shows that they were even better supported back in the day.


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40% bigger but with 3-4 times the attendances generally, despite large spells in the lower leagues, in fact I remember them almost going out of the league late 80s . Of course Lancashire has a higher population but Burnley also have to vy for support with with Man U, City, Liverpool, Everton as well as your Blackburns, Preston, Wigans etc.

Not knocking the Pars, I agree they are well supported but if you take all factors and look at support as a % of population Burnley would win hands down.

I do remember back in the late 80s/early 90s when the likes of Dunfermline, Killie and even St Johnstone seemed to have a far bigger core support who followed their local team than seems to be the case these days.

[Dashing Bob S]

And what would obliterating half the league do?

Bugger all.

For your information there were four clubs in Fife the last time I checked and four from Angus.

There were three in Falkirk until the end of last season. Has the demotion of East Stirlingshire resulted in a an increase in support for Falkirk?

For the benefit of the boneheads - Wallace Mercer, Anne Budge, and all - footballer supporters loyalty is not transferable.

It is not the same a merging supermarkets. When Safeway were sold to Morrisons, they would expect to pick up most of the custom. Despite all evidence soem think that football works the same way.

It's always idiots who know absolutely nothing about football who advance that argument. If fans of East Stirling were determined to support a 'big' club, they jump on the train to Glasgow, and even, to a lesser extent, Edinburgh, and glory hunt away. If they wanted to support a bigger local team, Falkirk is already an option.

[Keith_M]

Partick Thistle play in Scotland's largest city but such is the draw of the ugly sisters, 90% of people in Maryhill would rather 'support' one of those two than their local club.

PT's support didn't used to be as bad as this. During the early 80s (a time of very low attendances), they used to get the same hardcore support as Hibs at home matches, roughly 5k.

[greenlex]

Larger leagues with more promotion and relegation.A pyramid system for progression for even smaller clubs under that. Not less clubs.

[Highland_Hibee]

Noticed even Jambos complimenting our attendances for a team in it's 3rd season outside the top flight. Some going as far as saying they need us as a healthy rivalry is a must for guaranteed bums on seats. Teams are above us on merit but the reality is nobody is getting excited about an away day at Patrick or Hamilton.


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[superfurryhibby]

Partick Thistle play in Scotland's largest city but such is the draw of the ugly sisters, 90% of people in Maryhill would rather 'support' one of those two than their local club.

PT's support didn't used to be as bad as this. During the early 80s (a time of very low attendances), they used to get the same hardcore support as Hibs at home matches, roughly 5k.

I suppose the intervenng decades have not been good ones for Partick. They have spent most of those years in lower leagues and no doubt that has led to a decline in their core support.

[Topographic Hibby]

Has the demotion of East Stirlingshire resulted in a an increase in support for Falkirk?

I work beside an East Stirling supporter. Relegation has had no impact on him. He still supports his team and goes to the same number of games per season. No change to Scottish football finances or supporter numbers at Falkirk FC from his position.

You can't buy loyalty, as I think someone else has said.

[lucky]

A merger between Hibs & Yams would create Scotland's third super club (in size). 25000 ST holders and walk ups if at another 5000 on paper. It would give Edinburgh a side that could win the league and be competitive in the cups and might have a chance to be in Europe beyond Xmas. But the reality is that hardly any Hibbie or Yam would be interested. So why does anyone think that fans of smaller clubs would like to merge?
As Hibs & Hearts have shown if the team is successful on the park fans will turn out to watch. A decent product is the solution not mergers

[Alex Trager]

A merger between Hibs & Yams would create Scotland's third super club (in size). 25000 ST holders and walk ups if at another 5000 on paper. It would give Edinburgh a side that could win the league and be competitive in the cups and might have a chance to be in Europe beyond Xmas. But the reality is that hardly any Hibbie or Yam would be interested. So why does anyone think that fans of smaller clubs would like to merge?
As Hibs & Hearts have shown if the team is successful on the park fans will turn out to watch. A decent product is the solution not mergers

And yet maybe a decent product is only possible through a merger

[Eyrie]

And yet maybe a decent product is only possible through a merger

The problem is that we're not talking about a "product" here, but people's deeply held allegiances. This isn't like Ladbrokes merging with Coral - we're not customers to be bought and sold.

[hibs0666]

40% bigger but with 3-4 times the attendances generally, despite large spells in the lower leagues, in fact I remember them almost going out of the league late 80s . Of course Lancashire has a higher population but Burnley also have to vy for support with with Man U, City, Liverpool, Everton as well as your Blackburns, Preston, Wigans etc.

Not knocking the Pars, I agree they are well supported but if you take all factors and look at support as a % of population Burnley would win hands down.

I do remember back in the late 80s/early 90s when the likes of Dunfermline, Killie and even St Johnstone seemed to have a far bigger core support who followed their local team than seems to be the case these days.

Burnley has the biggest per capita support in the UK.

[Pretty Boy]

If you argue that Scotland has too many teams based on nothing more than todays attendances and standards then you're probably right. If the SPFL was set up tomorrow it would have about 20 teams.

However the argument that we shoulf simply shut down or merge teams we don't deem worthy is the argument of someone who fundementally fails to understand the football supporter. Trying to stack the deck in favour of the big clubs is exactly the same as UEFA are doing with the Champions League on a grand scale. Football standings should be decided on the field of play only, if a club attracting 2500 a week with a fraction of Hibs budget is outperforming us then good luck to them, that's our problem not theirs.

The argument makes no sense anyway. It takes someone especially naive to really believe that East Stirling fans would suddenly start supporting Falkirk in their droves or Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath fans would suddenly stand shoulder to shoulder. Wallace Mercer would have been right if that were the case, a single Edinburgh club drawing 30K every week would be more competitive than 2 seperate clubs. But he wasn't right because he misunderstood football fans, he misunderstood our pride in our own history and our own communities. He would never understand that the 21st May 2016 meant more to me than a united Edinburgh team winning the league year upon year ever would. The exact same can be said of fans of every club. It may well be illogical but it's just the way it is.

[Wee Effen Bee]

Ok, but how does having two teams in Falkirk or three from Fife, three from Angus etc, etc add to our game? All for tradition, but only up to a point. There are too many teams, too few supporters and ultimately the too many people in these areas following the Glasgow teams.

The thing is though, the toatie wee teams have been going for decades and are run on a shoestring without going teats up. I can't see the problem if a team is playing to a handful of loyal supporters every week - they deserve their place in the leagues.
I wouldn't like to be the one telling these folk their team is being flushed down the lavvy. There's no guarantee those teams' fans would then group together and choose another slightly bigger team to watch.
I do agree with the weekly Glasgow exodus affecting attendances in small towns.

[Wee Effen Bee]

If you argue that Scotland has too many teams based on nothing more than todays attendances and standards then you're probably right. If the SPFL was set up tomorrow it would have about 20 teams.

However the argument that we shoulf simply shut down or merge teams we don't deem worthy is the argument of someone who fundementally fails to understand the football supporter. Trying to stack the deck in favour of the big clubs is exactly the same as UEFA are doing with the Champions League on a grand scale. Football standings should be decided on the field of play only, if a club attracting 2500 a week with a fraction of Hibs budget is outperforming us then good luck to them, that's our problem not theirs.

The argument makes no sense anyway. It takes someone especially naive to really believe that East Stirling fans would suddenly start supporting Falkirk in their droves or Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath fans would suddenly stand shoulder to shoulder. Wallace Mercer would have been right if that were the case, a single Edinburgh club drawing 30K every week would be more competitive than 2 seperate clubs. But he wasn't right because he misunderstood football fans, he misunderstood our pride in our own history and our own communities. He would never understand that the 21st May 2016 meant more to me than a united Edinburgh team winning the league year upon year ever would. The exact same can be said of fans of every club. It may well be illogical but it's just the way it is.

Good post Pretty Boy:aok:

[Sir David Gray]

I'm totally against the amalgamation of clubs for the sake of it.

Arbroath, Montrose and Forfar will probably never achieve anything of any great note but to the people who go to watch those teams week in and week out, it's a way of life, they have a pride in their local town and community and their football team forms part of that.

If these teams were to join forces and combine into something like Angus United then yes they may have a bit more success on the pitch but what would these fans do on a Saturday afternoon? The majority of them would not go out to support this new side. I know I wouldn't if I was them.

People go to watch their football team for a variety of different reasons, who is anyone to say that their team should be merged with any other club, just because they don't perform very well on the pitch and only get a few hundred people turning up for matches?

Allegiance to a football team is about so much more than that.

[Mikey09]

It's absolute nonsense. People who nothing about football and how fan loyalties are formed bleat this stuff sheepishly from time to time. What they refuse to do is tell us how getting rid of smaller clubs would improve our game. There is no logic in it.


Played against the likes of Arbroath, Brechin, Forfar and the likes in the mid 90's and without doubt they're small clubs but they're fantastic small clubs. Who would the loyal fans of these clubs go and support? You can't just change yer team. It's in yer blood even if you support a smaller club. What a shock it's a yam coming out with this pish. We should be finding ways of helping these clubs flourish rather than talk about closing them down.

[221000]

If you argue that Scotland has too many teams based on nothing more than todays attendances and standards then you're probably right. If the SPFL was set up tomorrow it would have about 20 teams.

However the argument that we shoulf simply shut down or merge teams we don't deem worthy is the argument of someone who fundementally fails to understand the football supporter. Trying to stack the deck in favour of the big clubs is exactly the same as UEFA are doing with the Champions League on a grand scale. Football standings should be decided on the field of play only, if a club attracting 2500 a week with a fraction of Hibs budget is outperforming us then good luck to them, that's our problem not theirs.

The argument makes no sense anyway. It takes someone especially naive to really believe that East Stirling fans would suddenly start supporting Falkirk in their droves or Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath fans would suddenly stand shoulder to shoulder. Wallace Mercer would have been right if that were the case, a single Edinburgh club drawing 30K every week would be more competitive than 2 seperate clubs. But he wasn't right because he misunderstood football fans, he misunderstood our pride in our own history and our own communities. He would never understand that the 21st May 2016 meant more to me than a united Edinburgh team winning the league year upon year ever would. The exact same can be said of fans of every club. It may well be illogical but it's just the way it is.

You've hit the nail on the head mate. Great post.

[RoxburghHibs]

If you argue that Scotland has too many teams based on nothing more than todays attendances and standards then you're probably right. If the SPFL was set up tomorrow it would have about 20 teams.

However the argument that we shoulf simply shut down or merge teams we don't deem worthy is the argument of someone who fundementally fails to understand the football supporter. Trying to stack the deck in favour of the big clubs is exactly the same as UEFA are doing with the Champions League on a grand scale. Football standings should be decided on the field of play only, if a club attracting 2500 a week with a fraction of Hibs budget is outperforming us then good luck to them, that's our problem not theirs.

The argument makes no sense anyway. It takes someone especially naive to really believe that East Stirling fans would suddenly start supporting Falkirk in their droves or Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath fans would suddenly stand shoulder to shoulder. Wallace Mercer would have been right if that were the case, a single Edinburgh club drawing 30K every week would be more competitive than 2 seperate clubs. But he wasn't right because he misunderstood football fans, he misunderstood our pride in our own history and our own communities. He would never understand that the 21st May 2016 meant more to me than a united Edinburgh team winning the league year upon year ever would. The exact same can be said of fans of every club. It may well be illogical but it's just the way it is.

This has to be one of the best posts this year. Absolutely nailed it.

[ozhibs]

If you argue that Scotland has too many teams based on nothing more than todays attendances and standards then you're probably right. If the SPFL was set up tomorrow it would have about 20 teams.

However the argument that we shoulf simply shut down or merge teams we don't deem worthy is the argument of someone who fundementally fails to understand the football supporter. Trying to stack the deck in favour of the big clubs is exactly the same as UEFA are doing with the Champions League on a grand scale. Football standings should be decided on the field of play only, if a club attracting 2500 a week with a fraction of Hibs budget is outperforming us then good luck to them, that's our problem not theirs.

The argument makes no sense anyway. It takes someone especially naive to really believe that East Stirling fans would suddenly start supporting Falkirk in their droves or Brechin, Montrose and Arbroath fans would suddenly stand shoulder to shoulder. Wallace Mercer would have been right if that were the case, a single Edinburgh club drawing 30K every week would be more competitive than 2 seperate clubs. But he wasn't right because he misunderstood football fans, he misunderstood our pride in our own history and our own communities. He would never understand that the 21st May 2016 meant more to me than a united Edinburgh team winning the league year upon year ever would. The exact same can be said of fans of every club. It may well be illogical but it's just the way it is.

Spot on as ma fried Fred always says... you change your wife, your politics but never your team. :greengrin

[Highland_Hibee]

I'm totally against the amalgamation of clubs for the sake of it.

Arbroath, Montrose and Forfar will probably never achieve anything of any great note but to the people who go to watch those teams week in and week out, it's a way of life, they have a pride in their local town and community and their football team forms part of that.

If these teams were to join forces and combine into something like Angus United then yes they may have a bit more success on the pitch but what would these fans do on a Saturday afternoon? The majority of them would not go out to support this new side. I know I wouldn't if I was them.

People go to watch their football team for a variety of different reasons, who is anyone to say that their team should be merged with any other club, just because they don't perform very well on the pitch and only get a few hundred people turning up for matches?

Allegiance to a football team is about so much more than that.

Funny that this is the exact same argument that Inverness Caledonian and Inverness Thistle supporters put up yet everyone says they need to just "get over it" and go along and support their local team.


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[Smartie]

Do we not have the highest number of fans who attend games regularly per head of population of all the countries in Europe? Yes, it will be bloated by the uglies but even still, it's quite an impressive fact.

So the current set up probably does have something to say for it?

Maybe we just need to double Scotland's population?

[Highland_Hibee]

Maybe we just need to double Scotland's population?

Any bird deemed a 4/10 or above to be prepped as a vessel for seeding?


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[Smartie]

Any bird deemed a 4/10 or above to be prepped as a vessel for seeding?


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:greengrin

Now we're talking.

Get Frank McAvennie on the panel of experts discussing the future success of Scottish football.

He'd be ideal for some not so "outside the box" but very much "inside the box" thinking.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Not read through this thread but I think Scotland does OK attendance wise.
4,000 at Killie looks piss poor on the telly but they should have an 8K, not an 18K size ground. 4,000 is 10% of the towns population, same could be said for Motherwell or St.Johnstone or Inverness. Not bad at all.
Compare us to Denmark or Austria or any small to medium country in Europe and we do very well indeed. Hibs, Hearts or Aberdeen would be seen as very well supported clubs in these Countries. Vienna has a population of 2 million but Rapid and Austria Vienna manage about 20K between them.
Massive clubs like Inter Milan, Benfica and others play most home games in less than half full stadiums.
It's all about perceptions and Killie playing in way too big a stadium is part of the problem.
The Dutch have got it just about spot on with all clubs playing in stadiums the right size for club or town.

[Earlydelivery]

The trouble with Scotland is to many fans from all over Scotland follow rangers and Celtic

[Blaster]

The trouble with Scotland is to many fans from all over Scotland follow rangers and Celtic

That happens in other countries too. Our problem is we try and cater for all the clubs financially and too many of these smaller clubs get too much of a say for the very little they bring to the table.

I'm not suggesting mergers etc. But our main focus has to be the viewpoint of full time clubs

[Real Emerald]

The original point I was trying to make in this thread was not about mergers or doing away with smalll clubs, it was about protecting our larger clubs. Clubs who spend millions on stadia, have big fan bases and big running costs. By protecting I'm not meaning any sporting advantages given, just a decent opportunity of getting back up if they're relegated.

The premier league is always very tight and anyone bar Celtic just now could go on a bad run for whatever reason and end up going down. Trouble is the Championship is not easy to get out of and the style of football is different to the Premier league. One promotion place and a near impossible route through play offs makes it a daunting task. If clubs like Hibs, Dundee Utd or anyone for that matter spends a few seasons down, it could finish them.

So, by protecting them I'm really meaning a larger top division with two automatic promotion places. At least that way the bigger teams should get back in one or two seasons if they unlucky enough to go down. We can still have wee clubs in the top division but we don't want them instead of the bigger clubs.

[Keith_M]

The trouble with Scotland is to many fans from all over Scotland follow rangers and Celtic

That happens in other countries too.....


While that's true, I honestly think it's much more extreme in Scotland.


In Germany, people take an incredible pride in supporting their local club instead of the likes of Bayern Munich.

[Eyrie]

The original point I was trying to make in this thread was not about mergers or doing away with smalll clubs, it was about protecting our larger clubs. Clubs who spend millions on stadia, have big fan bases and big running costs. By protecting I'm not meaning any sporting advantages given, just a decent opportunity of getting back up if they're relegated.

The premier league is always very tight and anyone bar Celtic just now could go on a bad run for whatever reason and end up going down. Trouble is the Championship is not easy to get out of and the style of football is different to the Premier league. One promotion place and a near impossible route through play offs makes it a daunting task. If clubs like Hibs, Dundee Utd or anyone for that matter spends a few seasons down, it could finish them.

So, by protecting them I'm really meaning a larger top division with two automatic promotion places. At least that way the bigger teams should get back in one or two seasons if they unlucky enough to go down. We can still have wee clubs in the top division but we don't want them instead of the bigger clubs.

Two automatic promotion places means tow automatic relegation places, which still put a "big" club on a poor run in danger of being relegated - the very scenario that you want to avoid.

The rejected idea of two leagues of 12 splitting into three leagues of 8 would have achieved your goal by making it easier to recover from relegation which would soften the blow of being in the middle 8.

[Real Emerald]

Two automatic promotion places means tow automatic relegation places, which still put a "big" club on a poor run in danger of being relegated - the very scenario that you want to avoid.

The rejected idea of two leagues of 12 splitting into three leagues of 8 would have achieved your goal by making it easier to recover from relegation which would soften the blow of being in the middle 8.

Two relegation places out of 16 would still leave 14 teams safe and if a big club did have a disastrous season and got relegated there would be two automatic promotion places to get out of an even weaker league than it is now.

I'm sure either Hibs or Dundee Utd won't both get promoted this season. Hibs could be down for a fourth year and who knows who else will fall out the premier league. It is a disaster having big teams stuck in the Championship with no TV and little revenue. Meanwhile, Hamilton, Partick, Ross County and the rest are the show piece of Scottish football. If the bigger clubs end up withering away, we really will have problems.

[mjhibby]

Two relegation places out of 16 would still leave 14 teams safe and if a big club did have a disastrous season and got relegated there would be two automatic promotion places to get out of an even weaker league than it is now.

I'm sure either Hibs or Dundee Utd won't both get promoted this season. Hibs could be down for a fourth year and who knows who else will fall out the premier league. It is a disaster having big teams stuck in the Championship with no TV and little revenue. Meanwhile, Hamilton, Partick, Ross County and the rest are the show piece of Scottish football. If the bigger clubs end up withering away, we really will have problems.

While I get what youre saying surely league tables don't lie and where you finish in the league is where you deserve to be. The likes of Bournemouth and Burnley are smallish clubs in the premiership while the likes of Leeds,the the Sheffield clubs,villa etc are in the championship. If the big clubs can't do it under their own steam do they deserve to be in the top league. Hardly an incentive to well run clubs like Hamilton that they are seen as undesirable at the top table.

[mjhibby]

With Celtic running away with the SPL I don't think the size of the crowds will be that relevant. The lack of a challenge to them is more worrying imho.

[Earlydelivery]

While that's true, I honestly think it's much more extreme in Scotland.


In Germany, people take an incredible pride in supporting their local club instead of the likes of Bayern Munich.
Unfortunately a lot of it in Scotland is based on religion

[Eyrie]

Two relegation places out of 16 would still leave 14 teams safe and if a big club did have a disastrous season and got relegated there would be two automatic promotion places to get out of an even weaker league than it is now.

I'm sure either Hibs or Dundee Utd won't both get promoted this season. Hibs could be down for a fourth year and who knows who else will fall out the premier league. It is a disaster having big teams stuck in the Championship with no TV and little revenue. Meanwhile, Hamilton, Partick, Ross County and the rest are the show piece of Scottish football. If the bigger clubs end up withering away, we really will have problems.

16 teams means 15 home games which is a substantial drop in income. Trying to make that up with some daft split won't work, because some teams will have more home games than others.

If Hibs or Dundee United deserve to be in the top flight, then the way to prove that is to win automatic promotion or come through the play offs at the expense of a "smaller" team like Hamilton. Sporting merit is the key, not average attendances or the ability to write a cheque.

[Dashing Bob S]

If you remove bigots from the figures, we're by some distance the biggest supported club in the country.

[Real Emerald]

16 teams means 15 home games which is a substantial drop in income. Trying to make that up with some daft split won't work, because some teams will have more home games than others.

If Hibs or Dundee United deserve to be in the top flight, then the way to prove that is to win automatic promotion or come through the play offs at the expense of a "smaller" team like Hamilton. Sporting merit is the key, not average attendances or the ability to write a cheque.

Ok then sorry, we have a perfect league system and if we end up all standing in corrugated sheds watching Scottish football in the years to come then we'll be happy that sporting integrity has won. Or, we intervene and try to protect the clubs trying to drag us into the footballing future rather than the past. Choices eh. Who wants to spend millions trying improve when others are bringing their chicken coup grounds along and lording it. We have to protect investment or we are gone.

[Eyrie]

Ok then sorry, we have a perfect league system and if we end up all standing in corrugated sheds watching Scottish football in the years to come then we'll be happy that sporting integrity has won. Or, we intervene and try to protect the clubs trying to drag us into the footballing future rather than the past. Choices eh. Who wants to spend millions trying improve when others are bringing their chicken coup grounds along and lording it. We have to protect investment or we are gone.

I don't dispute that we need a better league structure, but I don't want one based on "earning potential" or "customer base" or any other of the qualifications needed to get an automatic place in the Champions League. I want one based on how well a team performs on the pitch, and if that means that a well supported club with excellent infrastructure gets relegated because they appoint the wrong manager, then they have to earn their promotion on the pitch by winning games.

[Real Emerald]

That's exactly what I want too. I just don't want teams as big as Hibs, Hearts, Dundee Utd etc. facing financial meltdown due to one bad season and ending up in purgatory in a Championship devoid of investment and limited promotion opportunities. I have never and would never believe leagues should be set up where only big teams survive. I just want a league set up that makes it more accommodating for clubs with investment, infrastructure and a large fan base to survive. This set up will end up killing a big club at some point but no worries for some tin pot outfit with no support, little investment and small overheads that's taking in all the sponsorship and meagre TV money that's on offer.

[northstandhibby]

That's exactly what I want too. I just don't want teams as big as Hibs, Hearts, Dundee Utd etc. facing financial meltdown due to one bad season and ending up in purgatory in a Championship devoid of investment and limited promotion opportunities. I have never and would never believe leagues should be set up where only big teams survive. I just want a league set up that makes it more accommodating for clubs with investment, infrastructure and a large fan base to survive. This set up will end up killing a big club at some point but no worries for some tin pot outfit with no support taking in all the sponsorship and meagre TV money that's on offer.

Status Quo v Competition (not the group status quo who were not that bad at all)

It is a very old argument indeed in every social stratosphere.

GGTTH

[Real Emerald]

Status Quo v Competition (not the group status quo who were not that bad at all)

It is a very old argument indeed in every social stratosphere.

GGTTH
Wow that requires a tequila 👍