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Highland_Hibee
12-10-2016, 02:40 PM
Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




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Hibby Bairn
12-10-2016, 02:51 PM
Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

For me the SFA and others should be asking questions such as...

1. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why is the best we can produce at RB Calum Paterson?

2. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why do we have no one who is ready and better than Martin and Hanley at CB?

3. Why has Gauld not progressed?

4. Why is Steven Fletcher the only real international that has progressed from the Euro U19 final v Spain circa 10 yrs ago?

5. Why have Tierney, Burke, Robertson and Griffiths all progressed to the level they are now at?...Are there any lessons to be learned that can be replicated?...Are there any "tipping points" that we can uncover?

The answers might give us the insights we need to introduce effective changes needed so in 10 years time we are not asking the same questions.

Iain G
12-10-2016, 02:54 PM
Needless to say football hasn't been where I've been finding any joy over the past few weeks.

At the beginning of the Strachan reign I was optimistic and some performances quickly backed up that optimism. I thought we were going forward with a decent blend of youth and experience. We were never looking like world beaters just a solid outfit that might just qualify for a major tournament round the corner.

Fast forward to now and those feelings are all gone. Replaced with disbelief that we can't even turn in a respectable performance against fellow also rans of world football.

We simply have to ditch repeat offenders and throw any young prospects into the deep end and hope they swim. Sling your Fletchers, Hutton, Maloney, Naismith etc.

Chuck in Tierney, Burke, McGinn, Henderson, Paterson, Cummings, Gauld and any others with hope of promise.

We might suffer the odd 5v0 drubbing at the hand of the more competent nations but so what? We aren't going to be in any worse a position than we have been for fast approaching 20 years. Best scenario one or two of these players take the chance and gell into respectable performers.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Replace Strachan with John Collins :agree:

Highland_Hibee
12-10-2016, 02:56 PM
That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

It didn't break the mould but it gave us players who could put in respectable performances against major nations such as Italy and France.

We have fallen far away from there.



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Kato
12-10-2016, 02:56 PM
Pick any permutation of players and play them in whatever formation or position you would like, it won't make the slightest bit difference. We don't produce players who are good enough to perform well at international level any more and haven't done for years. I honestly can't believe the discussions going on today about team selection and tactics as though it actually makes a difference.

A new manager might come in and freshen things up for a wee while, maybe even get some decent results but it won't last and they will fail long term due to lack of talent.

No sign of this changing whilst the SFA sits and does nothing to improve our national game and act as though they are The Rangers lap-dog.

Scottish football is a backwater.

Jones28
12-10-2016, 03:01 PM
Whoever comes in to replace Strachan has got to show more balls in their selection. Last night Griffiths and Mcginn did more than Fletcher and Snodgrass in their 15 minute cameos than either of those 2. If Mcginn can put in a MOTM performance against whoever it was on his debut then why cant he be trusted to start against Slovakia when it matters? Surely he is a better option than Darren Fletcher who is a substitute waiting to happen. Also, why was Oli Burke dropped? He is much better option than Matt ****ing Ritchie and is at least a young, raw Scottish talent compared to a guy who is hardly a world beater in English football?

Oscar T Grouch
12-10-2016, 03:05 PM
Unfortunately Scotlands football needs an overhaul from the grass roots to the very top. We need to look at countries like Iceland and see what they are doing. The whole structure of Scottish football worked when we were poorer and kids only option to escape poverty was football. We still have poor kids but they've got so much else to choose from. Also the SFA haven't come up with a decent idea to propell our game forward in 40 years, and knowing them, they could not get an decent idea between all of them. Scottish football is finished until we change everything, ergo Scottish football is finished because the powers that be don't want to change everything.

J-C
12-10-2016, 03:12 PM
The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

Paisley Hibby
12-10-2016, 04:09 PM
Replace Strachan with John Collins :agree:

Well he's Scottish and currently out of a job. But so too (as far as I know) are Jimmy Calderwood, Jackie McNamara, Malky McKay, Paul Lambert and John Hughes. All of them every bit as gash as Collins. None of them better than Strachan (and that's a low bar).

Paisley Hibby
12-10-2016, 04:23 PM
We can surely afford to pay more than Northern Ireland and as Michael O'Neil has shown he can qualify with a team of journeyman then he'd be a good choice. Also, as far as I know, he still lives in Scotland?

beensaidbefore
12-10-2016, 04:49 PM
That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.



We got volts in to do a rebuild of Scottish football after realising what we had on offer was *****. We then pandered to the media and got rid far too quickly. Had we given him more time to work from grassroots up I don't think we would be in the position we are today. Short-sightedness coupled with Glasgow fa is the problem. Until that is changed there will be nothing but a steady continuation of decline.

beensaidbefore
12-10-2016, 04:50 PM
We can surely afford to pay more than Northern Ireland and as Michael O'Neil has shown he can qualify with a team of journeyman then he'd be a good choice. Also, as far as I know, he still lives in Scotland?

Even the N Irish can put aside their differences though Glasgow can't seem to.

Cod Boy
12-10-2016, 04:55 PM
It's the same inquest campaign after campaign but nothing is ever done to change the structure of the national team.

Itsnoteasy
12-10-2016, 04:56 PM
That is what Vogts did...not sure it moved us any further forward.

For me the SFA and others should be asking questions such as...

1. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why is the best we can produce at RB Calum Paterson?

2. With all the children and youths playing football over the past 10 years why do we have no one who is ready and better than Martin and Hanley at CB?

3. Why has Gauld not progressed?

4. Why is Steven Fletcher the only real international that has progressed from the Euro U19 final v Spain circa 10 yrs ago?

5. Why have Tierney, Burke, Robertson and Griffiths all progressed to the level they are now at?...Are there any lessons to be learned that can be replicated?...Are there any "tipping points" that we can uncover?

The answers might give us the insights we need to introduce effective changes needed so in 10 years time we are not asking the same questions.

Gauld is currently on loan @ Setubal in Portugal

pontius pilate
12-10-2016, 05:21 PM
I would like to see outsiders come in to run out game people with no affiliation to the old firm and grab it by the balls. Increase the top league to 16 teams the starting 11 has to consist of at least 5 homegrown players and have 2 u21 players in the match day squad and bring back a max foreigner rule. Play and train the same way at international level from u17- full squad. More funding for indoor and outdoor training centres. I'll for shot down for some of these points so tin hat firmly on

Dr Jimmy
12-10-2016, 05:32 PM
From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

Iain G
12-10-2016, 05:44 PM
Well he's Scottish and currently out of a job. But so too (as far as I know) are Jimmy Calderwood, Jackie McNamara, Malky McKay, Paul Lambert and John Hughes. All of them every bit as gash as Collins. None of them better than Strachan (and that's a low bar).

I think he could and would do a better job than Strachan, more tactically aware and would get a younger scottish team playing for him. hell get Lambert on the coaching staff, lots of good european experience between them to improve out lot

Cod Boy
12-10-2016, 05:50 PM
From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

Well said 100% agree.

NAE NOOKIE
12-10-2016, 06:00 PM
I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

greenpaper55
12-10-2016, 06:09 PM
The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

Spot on, that and that we bring in players from abroad even in our league rather than play youth, you can have the best league in the world but if you neglect the young players then you are asking for trouble-just that is happening to England right now as well.

Unseen work
12-10-2016, 06:16 PM
From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.


100%

In addition to this there are far too many coaches wanting to punish players after a poor performance at youth level from 13s-19s

If a juvenile team is training once a week and lose the Saturday it should be go in and train on the ball, make them more comfortable and confident.

Instead you get coaches thinking "nah, what they need is a beasting" and make them run for a hour and a half with no balls involved whatsoever.

Juvenile should be focussing on the fundamentals, constantly repeating your basic drills and technique.

Once they get older that's when you bring them into more match like environments and a proper coaching aspect in terms of positioning and tactics.

The main thing is there is a severe lack of coaches out there that have the knowledge or experience of drills to do with kids or instructions to give them. The few that do don't explain to the kids why they are doing it and the benefit of it, which confuses the kid.

Scouse Hibee
12-10-2016, 06:18 PM
I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

Great post,you raise some very valid points. One thing that puzzles and I know we can all have different opinions to the manager over selections. Strachan seems to ignore the form players and even pick players that have hardly appeared let alone shown decent form over those that have.

I was mainly watching England last night so never actually saw much of Scotland's game so despite the scoreline were they that bad or did they it implode after conceding?

England were at times run ragged and have Hart to thank for keeping it goalless on at least three occasions with three top saves. England are indeed in a poor state internationally, some folk just haven't really woken up to that yet as qualification nearly always saves the day regardless of performance in finals.

Other nations are not slowly closing the gap,they are on our shoulder already.

Unseen work
12-10-2016, 06:31 PM
I listened to the end of an interview with Kevin Gallagher on Talk Sport this afternoon ...... He was defending Strachan and saying its not his fault because Scotland is a small country and just doesn't have the quality of player to do well in qualifying rounds any more. No wonder we are struggling if that's the attitude coming from people who allegedly know the game.

That nonsense maybe stacks up when you put us up against the likes of Germany or at a stretch even the likes of Sweden or Austria with populations of around 10 million ..... but how does it form an excuse when we cant beat Lithuania with a population of less than 3 million where the biggest sport is Basketball, or a country like Slovakia with a population roughly the same as ours. It should also be pointed out that compared to a lot of European countries of a similar size we have a professional football league with crowds most of them can only dream of, Slovakia are at the planning stage of a new national stadium which will have a capacity only 2,000 more than Easter Road.

The fact that we seem unable to produce players capable of beating countries of a similar size at football and national managers incapable of out thinking their opponents has to be addressed .... We have a bigger and better background in professional football than practically any country in Europe and yet they are leaving us standing, including a country the size of Edinburgh.

If you ask me the place to start is not to look at Scotland, but to look at England ...... they hoover up some of our best players before they have had a chance to kick a ball in anger for a Scottish club and leave half of them to stagnate, also more and more we are giving caps to players with Scottish grannies who have probably never even been to Scotland ...... that would be fine if it was improving the Scottish national team, but it isn't ... look at the English national team, they are rubbish and they have the pick of the best English players in English football. If they cant put together a decent team from the best players produced by the English system then what makes us think having half of our team produced by or playing in that same system is going to do us any good?

The same goes for managers .... the best British manager in English football over the last 30 years was a product of Scottish football, not English football. How many products of the English football system currently manage English premier league clubs? six I think it is currently and its usually less than that. The argument might be there that the EPL attracts players and managers from all over the world edging out all but the very best English managers and players, but that being true why are there next to no English players or managers working in European football who have been squeezed out at home?

What about Northern Ireland, Wales and the Republic of Ireland whose players all come from the English system? ...... what about them, in reality their records in qualifying are worse or barely better than ours.

I suppose the point I'm making is that its not just the Scottish football system that's hurting our national team, its the English one as well, which is as bad at producing international class players as ours is ..... we have two problems here, one is to find a way for Scottish football to produce better players and the other one is to find a way to keep these better players from going to England far too early to be ruined by it and to find a way that means a player isn't considered international class just because he has kicked a ball in England's top two divisions and that includes guys who are considered Scotland team contenders because their granny was from Inverness.

I think as a nation our managers are too stubborn and think if a player is at a championship/premiership side in England that he must play and is better than everyone else.

Teams that have done better than us of late have players that I would bet wouldn't be near our squad.

Niall Mcginn, Michael McGovern and josh Magennis at Northern Ireland are 3 examples. All players in the spl up until the summer.

Fillip Kiss came on against us last night, he was at Ross county up till last year.

Adam Rooney and Danny Rodgers getting a call up for the ROI.

All the players I have mentioned wouldn't get a call up for Scotland imo.

We have guys like Cummings, McGinn, Graeme Shinnie, Paul Hanlon. Even guys like John Souttarr, Danny Wilson or mark Reynolds for god sake

I'm not saying all of them should get a call up, but let's play the guys in form regardless of who they are at. It's time to bed the younger players in for the future.

Our centre halfs are useless, Darren fletcher is past it and our strikers bar Griffiths are very poor.

I find it extremely harsh Graeme Shinnie has not been given a chance as for me he is a standout every game I see

Carheenlea
12-10-2016, 07:02 PM
Replace Strachan with John Collins :agree:

:agree:

I've long thought that International football may be a better managerial fit for Collins.

SonOfDavidFrancey
12-10-2016, 07:09 PM
:agree:

I've long thought that International football may be a better managerial fit for Collins.

Ewan Murray arguing that they should go for o'neill, or at least try. His assistant is a scot it seems.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
12-10-2016, 07:12 PM
Whoever comes in to replace Strachan has got to show more balls in their selection. Last night Griffiths and Mcginn did more than Fletcher and Snodgrass in their 15 minute cameos than either of those 2. If Mcginn can put in a MOTM performance against whoever it was on his debut then why cant he be trusted to start against Slovakia when it matters? Surely he is a better option than Darren Fletcher who is a substitute waiting to happen. Also, why was Oli Burke dropped? He is much better option than Matt ****ing Ritchie and is at least a young, raw Scottish talent compared to a guy who is hardly a world beater in English football?

Come on. Are you seriously a suggesting a guy playing ok for a scottish lower league team should play ahead of a guy playing well in the premiership?

Bostonhibby
12-10-2016, 07:14 PM
Scrap the SFA and merge with England to create a partially British football team that might be able to compete with Wales?

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
12-10-2016, 07:18 PM
The league set up here is all wrong also, even though Celtic and Rangers were the top 2 clubs in Scotland, there was always a few clubs capable of challenging them back in the 60-70's. Hearts, Hibs, Dundee U and Aberdeen all produced decent teams with players who went on to bigger things down south but the SFA played around with our leagues and made sure the 2 ugly sisters from the west would get the lions share of any monies brought into Scottish football, thus keeping us all poor and unable to challenge them for titles or cups on a regular basis. This has to be the 1st thing addressed, get a competitive league set up again and make sure the money brought in is shared between all the clubs fairly.

Wad chatting with some mates last nigt, and we thought that one of the problems was that young players develop to a point, get a big move to old firm and then plateau as they have 'made it' - i think they could well be holding players back.

We also thought we are hampered because few pkayers go abroad, whereas teams like slovakia, Ireland, wales will have most of their players raised in top footballing countries.

And as kato said above, we still dont value tactics, brain power and technique over brawn and heart, and us fans are part of that problem.

I still remember fans sitting in front of me screaming at stokes last season because he 's##t out' of a challenge woth some hammr thower defender.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
12-10-2016, 07:19 PM
From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

Couldnt agree more. We dont teach kids technique, we dont cherish tactics and brain power.

mjhibby
12-10-2016, 07:58 PM
From what I have seen of kids football 12 and under over the last 5 years I will be amazed if we ever get any better.

Far too many dads involved "coaching" and re-living their youth through the kids. Too much emphasis on winning and scoring as many goals as possible. I know that may sound daft, but when a team finds a way to score (long ball over the top to the faster kid etc) what is that teaching the kids and how is it developing their technique positional sense and understanding of the game. Winning 15-0 seems to please these "coaches" so they can tell their mates in the pub. It truely is pathetic at times.
We need proper coaches who actually develop players rather than bark orders from the sides. The time for winning should come after technique etc has been instilled in them.

The problem is the coaches who want to develop kids technical skills,game awareness and teamwork are looked upon as luxuries for a team when the real coaches teach fitness,how to stop the other team and indeed the quick ball to the fast striker or winger who then creates/ score the goal. Plus kids are not patient enough to wait for the right moment to play the killer pass and want to score with every attack. It's so depressing and frustrating to see good coaches packing in as the kids carry on doing what the Neanderthal coaches tell them. Can't see it changing any time soon.

G B Young
12-10-2016, 09:01 PM
Scrap the SFA and merge with England to create a partially British football team that might be able to compete with Wales?

Sent from my HTC One mini 2 using Tapatalk

I've suggested on here before that the only possible way to achieve anything resembling success on the international stage these days would be to go with a UK team, similar to the way we do in the Olympics. The dearth of genuine international football players is something that simply won't change in Scotland as things stand and we will simply continue to fade yet further from the world stage. England may still qualify regularly for the major tournaments but they really are not that much better. Admirable as the efforts of Wales and NI at the Euros were, they need to be seen in the context of what was a dismally low standard tournament and I'll be surprised if either maintain that sort of form.

Not expecting much agreement but I think we might be surprised by how quickly we could bring ourselves to support a combined team which was at least competitive. Simply sticking by Scotland and hoping against hope that they get better has been proved to be futile for 20 years now.

cabbageandribs1875
12-10-2016, 09:54 PM
http://hutsonresourcegroup.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/broken_record.gif

Beefster
13-10-2016, 05:43 AM
Replace Strachan with John Collins :agree:

Which part of Collins' managerial (or even assistant managerial) career makes you think that he deserves a shot at the Scotland job?

Personally, Southgate getting a shot at the England job with his record puzzles me but he's a managerial titan compared to Collins.

Nameless
13-10-2016, 06:03 AM
http://hutsonresourcegroup.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/broken_record.gif
That's now a culturally inept reference. Even a scratchy CD would be pushing it. You'll need to find a gif that represents a corrupt download if you want to get your message over to da yoof.

Carheenlea
13-10-2016, 06:07 AM
I've suggested on here before that the only possible way to achieve anything resembling success on the international stage these days would be to go with a UK team, similar to the way we do in the Olympics. The dearth of genuine international football players is something that simply won't change in Scotland as things stand and we will simply continue to fade yet further from the world stage. England may still qualify regularly for the major tournaments but they really are not that much better. Admirable as the efforts of Wales and NI at the Euros were, they need to be seen in the context of what was a dismally low standard tournament and I'll be surprised if either maintain that sort of form.

Not expecting much agreement but I think we might be surprised by how quickly we could bring ourselves to support a combined team which was at least competitive. Simply sticking by Scotland and hoping against hope that they get better has been proved to be futile for 20 years now.

You would be look at two generations before there would be much interest in Scotland for a UK side.
For most, a dismally under performing Scotland side will always be more appealing than a successful GB side, in my opinion.

Silky
13-10-2016, 06:36 AM
I think part of the problem is that kids are never outside anymore. I see loads of grassy areas around houses which all have no ball games signs. What chance have kids got. Perhaps councils and even public health Scotland have to look at this as well. Childhood obesity is high, kids are less active and because some grumpy auld git moans football gets banned. I played in the street as did generations before me. We qualified for things then.

Oscar T Grouch
13-10-2016, 07:41 AM
I think I've found the problem. This is from the BBC gossip

Scotland goalkeeper Gordon Marshall insists the whole squad is behind Strachan and says the manager's hunger "hasn't diminished". (Daily Express)

We've been playing a 54 y.o. Hairdresser in goals, nae wonder we lost 3-0 😂

Pretty Boy
13-10-2016, 07:54 AM
I think part of the problem is that kids are never outside anymore. I see loads of grassy areas around houses which all have no ball games signs. What chance have kids got. Perhaps councils and even public health Scotland have to look at this as well. Childhood obesity is high, kids are less active and because some grumpy auld git moans football gets banned. I played in the street as did generations before me. We qualified for things then.

Tbh I always think the 'kids don't play in the streets anymore' line a bit well worn. I certainly think kids don't play enough football nowadays, partly due to the youth set upd at senior clubs.

However sales of Playstations and Xboxs aren't significantly higher in Scotland than they are in Spain, Germany, France or Italy. Obviously population plays a part but these countries are consistently putting squads together with 7 or 8 world class players and another group just below that level. We don't have one even close. Population is only part of the reason, England has a massive population but don't have a genuinely world class player. On the flip side Croatia, Iceland, Slovenia and Ireland have similar or smaller populations compared to Scotland but have outperforned us in qualifying for nearly 20 years now. I wonder if kids play in a traffic heavy street in these countries? Lithuania and Slovakia both looked technically streets ahead of Scotland as well.

We need to look at what is working elsewhere as opposed to blaming it on a cultural issue which almost suggests it can't be fixed.

Saturday Boy
13-10-2016, 08:15 AM
Maybe the SFA should ask the women's team what they are doing. A country with an amateur part time league, where the national team is a mix of full time anglos/ expats and part time Scottish based players, has qualified for the Euros.

jacomo
13-10-2016, 09:14 AM
Replace Strachan with John Collins :agree:

I would definitely support that.

We would probably see a lot of the more senior players retire from international football because they don't want to hear about six packs, nutrition and grafting (but they've under achieved anyhow).

We probably wouldn't qualify for the next World Cup (plus ca change).

But we probably would unearth a few more young players who took his ideas on board and exceeded expectations.

superfurryhibby
13-10-2016, 09:14 AM
Tbh I always think the 'kids don't play in the streets anymore' line a bit well worn. I certainly think kids don't play enough football nowadays, partly due to the youth set upd at senior clubs.

However sales of Playstations and Xboxs aren't significantly higher in Scotland than they are in Spain, Germany, France or Italy. Obviously population plays a part but these countries are consistently putting squads together with 7 or 8 world class players and another group just below that level. We don't have one even close. Population is only part of the reason, England has a massive population but don't have a genuinely world class player. On the flip side Croatia, Iceland, Slovenia and Ireland have similar or smaller populations compared to Scotland but have outperforned us in qualifying for nearly 20 years now. I wonder if kids play in a traffic heavy street in these countries? Lithuania and Slovakia both looked technically streets ahead of Scotland as well.

We need to look at what is working elsewhere as opposed to blaming it on a cultural issue which almost suggests it can't be fixed.

My 13 year old has recently moved over here from Spain. He tells me that most of his pals are notinterested in playing football, with the majority being gamers or playing the likes of Warhammer etc. A couple play other sports, like tennis and basketball.

He says at PE he notices that most kids are crap at football and that many are overweight and totally uninterested in any form of physical exercise.

Totally anecdotal of course, but still a valid snapshot of what it's like?

Add in harsh climate, lack of accessible facilities, poor attitudes from some people involved in coaching etc? I remember the experiences of my eldest ( now 30) and his involvement in high level youth football. Plenty numpties I knew from my amateur days involved with boys clubs. Aggressive and narrow minded approaches were common, a bit of an eye opener for my laddie and then wife, both from middle class backgrounds.

My viewsaren't that well formed but I would highlight the socio-economic disparity in terms of participation as a contributory factor too. Footballers remain, albeit making massive generalisations here, predomininately working class. I remember well a coach telling me that my boy was maybe too well brought up and spoke the wrong way to have the killer instinct needed to make it to pro youth level. Lets just say the attitudes didn't always encourage participation. In fact, I deliberately steered my two youngest boys away from playing serious football because of this. Having done it myself as a very good juvenile player and experienced the nonsense as a parent with the eldest, no chance of going through it all over again.

J-C
13-10-2016, 09:55 AM
Someone earlier mentioned that we as a society are far better off than say 40+ years ago, this is what I see as having a major effect on our game.

Go back to the 60-70's and very few had tv's and all the gadgets we have so readily available nowadays, kids had to go outside to amuse themselves and football was just the norm then, down the local park with your mates for a kick about.

Fast forward, kids have every gadget possible, they can chat with their mates on phones and via skype etc, no need to leave your nice warm comfy house. Poverty isn't an issue either nowadays, when you came from a fairly poor background, football was a way to better yourself but the majority of families are living fairly comfortable lifestyles, there's no real need to better yourself with football as the job market gives you a decent standard of living.

Renfrew_Hibby
13-10-2016, 10:02 AM
Someone earlier mentioned that we as a society are far better off than say 40+ years ago, this is what I see as having a major effect on our game.

Go back to the 60-70's and very few had tv's and all the gadgets we have so readily available nowadays, kids had to go outside to amuse themselves and football was just the norm then, down the local park with your mates for a kick about.

Fast forward, kids have every gadget possible, they can chat with their mates on phones and via skype etc, no need to leave your nice warm comfy house. Poverty isn't an issue either nowadays, when you came from a fairly poor background, football was a way to better yourself but the majority of families are living fairly comfortable lifestyles, there's no real need to better yourself with football as the job market gives you a decent standard of living.

You could say the same about most places around europe. But when countries like Denmark, Slovenia, or just about anywhere can continually year after year produce fit, athletic, technically proficient & streetwise young footballers... Why the hell can't we?

J-C
13-10-2016, 10:10 AM
You could say the same about most places around europe. But when countries like Denmark, Slovenia, or just about anywhere can continually year after year produce fit, athletic, technically proficient & streetwise young footballers... Why the hell can't we?


Good question and the main question we're all asking here, is it our psyche? have we just become a lazy arsed nation of gamers?

There may be several reasons why we've dropped so drastically from the world footballing scene and maybe there are just too many problems needing fixed that it'll take many many years to fix them.

MWHIBBIES
13-10-2016, 11:07 AM
Good question and the main question we're all asking here, is it our psyche? have we just become a lazy arsed nation of gamers?

There may be several reasons why we've dropped so drastically from the world footballing scene and maybe there are just too many problems needing fixed that it'll take many many years to fix them.
Nothing wrong with playing video games if you wish, certainly doesnt make you lazy.

J-C
13-10-2016, 11:21 AM
Nothing wrong with playing video games if you wish, certainly doesnt make you lazy.


I didn't say everyone but there is a connection with gaming and less active kids, been well documented. 30-40 years ago we didn't have all these indoor gadgetry to keep us amused, more kids played outside, I also think more parents don't want their kids outside playing nowadays, times have changed.

Peevemor
13-10-2016, 11:26 AM
I didn't say everyone but there is a connection with gaming and less active kids, been well documented. 30-40 years ago we didn't have all these indoor gadgetry to keep us amused, more kids played outside, I also think more parents don't want their kids outside playing nowadays, times have changed.

You don't have to go back 30-40 years either.

NAE NOOKIE
13-10-2016, 12:23 PM
Great post,you raise some very valid points. One thing that puzzles and I know we can all have different opinions to the manager over selections. Strachan seems to ignore the form players and even pick players that have hardly appeared let alone shown decent form over those that have.

I was mainly watching England last night so never actually saw much of Scotland's game so despite the scoreline were they that bad or did they it implode after conceding?

England were at times run ragged and have Hart to thank for keeping it goalless on at least three occasions with three top saves. England are indeed in a poor state internationally, some folk just haven't really woken up to that yet as qualification nearly always saves the day regardless of performance in finals.

Other nations are not slowly closing the gap,they are on our shoulder already.

I can sometimes see the point in picking a player who isn't getting a game at club level, but only if there clearly isn't a better alternative .... I found Strachan's decision to play Martin and Fletcher before in form Leigh Griffiths astonishing, especially in the Lithuania game where we would be in and around their final 3rd quite a lot.

I didn't see the game coz it was on BT sport and when I found out the score I was too depressed to watch the 'highlights?' ....... But the England situation goes to show what I meant in my post, as you say they are capable of qualifying almost every time, but fail miserably at tournaments. Poor international football isn't a Scottish problem, its a British problem and that's why Scottish international managers should take the blinkers off when deciding to pick players from the English league over the Scottish premiership just because they play in England.


I think as a nation our managers are too stubborn and think if a player is at a championship/premiership side in England that he must play and is better than everyone else.

Teams that have done better than us of late have players that I would bet wouldn't be near our squad.

Niall Mcginn, Michael McGovern and josh Magennis at Northern Ireland are 3 examples. All players in the spl up until the summer.

Fillip Kiss came on against us last night, he was at Ross county up till last year.

Adam Rooney and Danny Rodgers getting a call up for the ROI.

All the players I have mentioned wouldn't get a call up for Scotland imo.

We have guys like Cummings, McGinn, Graeme Shinnie, Paul Hanlon. Even guys like John Souttarr, Danny Wilson or mark Reynolds for god sake

I'm not saying all of them should get a call up, but let's play the guys in form regardless of who they are at. It's time to bed the younger players in for the future.

Our centre halfs are useless, Darren fletcher is past it and our strikers bar Griffiths are very poor.

I find it extremely harsh Graeme Shinnie has not been given a chance as for me he is a standout every game I see

Exactly .... perhaps its time, as I said in my post above, to take the blinkers off. It seems to me its time to stop thinking a player is obviously going to be better at international level just because he plays in the English championship or the EPL even. I think we over estimate how good the English championship in particular is, England cant pick a winning national team from the EPL, what makes us think there's one to be had from an English league lower than that. If it becomes clear that this qualifying campaign is going to be a bust then perhaps its time to look at the Scottish leagues and give players from there a chance, what the hell do we have to lose?

Walter
13-10-2016, 02:54 PM
Maybe Fergie fancies a dance at it

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
13-10-2016, 02:59 PM
I can sometimes see the point in picking a player who isn't getting a game at club level, but only if there clearly isn't a better alternative .... I found Strachan's decision to play Martin and Fletcher before in form Leigh Griffiths astonishing, especially in the Lithuania game where we would be in and around their final 3rd quite a lot.

I didn't see the game coz it was on BT sport and when I found out the score I was too depressed to watch the 'highlights?' ....... But the England situation goes to show what I meant in my post, as you say they are capable of qualifying almost every time, but fail miserably at tournaments. Poor international football isn't a Scottish problem, its a British problem and that's why Scottish international managers should take the blinkers off when deciding to pick players from the English league over the Scottish premiership just because they play in England.



Exactly .... perhaps its time, as I said in my post above, to take the blinkers off. It seems to me its time to stop thinking a player is obviously going to be better at international level just because he plays in the English championship or the EPL even. I think we over estimate how good the English championship in particular is, England cant pick a winning national team from the EPL, what makes us think there's one to be had from an English league lower than that. If it becomes clear that this qualifying campaign is going to be a bust then perhaps its time to look at the Scottish leagues and give players from there a chance, what the hell do we have to lose?

England get jusdged by far higher criteria than we do.

And wales, NI amd ireland seem to be ok with english based (and often just english) players

ancient hibee
13-10-2016, 03:07 PM
I don't really buy this fat,lazy kids excuse.Why is it we are producing more Olympic,World,European and UK champions and medalists than we ever have in numerous other sports? I think it's down to the level of coaching in football and the lack of any achievable plan to bring excellence through in a competitive team sport where clubs are fighting to steal a march on each other.

Allant1981
13-10-2016, 03:11 PM
Not sure what the quick fix is, if any. There is a dcent amount of players in that squad but for whatever reason strachan just doesnt seem to have it. Long term i think coaches have to take ideas from different sports if we are to move forward, my laddie goes skiing and has different levels when learning, level 1 basics, level 2 how to position legs and so on and so on, once this is done then it all falls in to place, maybe football coaches use something similar. Probably wouldnt work in football but something needs to be done

G B Young
13-10-2016, 03:27 PM
Allardyce for Scotland?

http://terracepodcast.net/five-reasons-scotland-should-go-after-big-sam-allardyce/

Keith_M
13-10-2016, 04:55 PM
What now for Scotland?


I foresee a bleak future where we continue to have our football run by a bunch of Muppets whose sole interest is the 'Old Firm', who have a lack of interest in developing Scottish Footballers with decent skills and a national team, continually populated by the Manager's current favourites, that never qualify for another International tournament.....ever!


But maybe I'm being overly negative.

bingo70
13-10-2016, 05:46 PM
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37644335

Pretty annoyed by this tbh

Staying on for the England game is purely for his own benefit, if we'd been playing someone like Slovenia away next he'd have been away IMO

Nonsense he's even getting a choice but sums up the SFA

Lancs Harp
13-10-2016, 05:50 PM
I think he was always going to stop on for the England game. In his own mind he will feel he can pull it off and all will be forgiven in the euphoria of a Wembley win.

Keith_M
13-10-2016, 05:52 PM
I think he was always going to stop on for the England game. In his own mind he will feel he can pull it off and all will be forgiven in the euphoria of a Wembley win.


Except I foresee a humping... even against a not particularly great England team

Lancs Harp
13-10-2016, 05:55 PM
Except I foresee a humping... even against a not particularly great England team

The way England and Scotland are going at the moment its got 0-0 written all over it.


:greengrin

NAE NOOKIE
13-10-2016, 06:00 PM
England get jusdged by far higher criteria than we do.

And wales, NI amd ireland seem to be ok with english based (and often just english) players

Yes ..... England are judged against France, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Italy and Spain and they fail miserably every time, in the history of international football at World and European level, not only have they only won one tournament, they have only ever made one final, and yet this is the league system something like 70% of Scotland players have been picked from in modern times.

As for Wales, Northern Ireland and even the Republic of Ireland ...... their qualifying records hardly stand up to real scrutiny.

Northern Ireland ......... 3 world cups and 1 European championships.

Wales ........................ 1 world cup and 1 European championships.

Republic of Ireland ...... 3 world cups and 4 European championships.

That's 20 world cups and 15 European championships ...... so out of 35 goes the best is the Republic with 7 qualifications and 28 failures.

I wouldn't go reading too much into these records as showing the virtues of the English league system ... the fact that we were the only country not to make the Euros in France has perhaps skewed our perceptions. For all that Northern Ireland did well to qualify, it was out of a group they couldn't have asked better of if they had been allowed to pick it themselves. Wales were blessed with one of the worlds best players, would they have made it without Bale? ... I doubt it.

superfurryhibby
13-10-2016, 07:15 PM
I don't really buy this fat,lazy kids excuse.Why is it we are producing more Olympic,World,European and UK champions and medalists than we ever have in numerous other sports? I think it's down to the level of coaching in football and the lack of any achievable plan to bring excellence through in a competitive team sport where clubs are fighting to steal a march on each other.

There are less kids than ever before who don't play football, possibly don't do any sport. The ones that do play, for most it's less of a way of life and more of a hobby which is indulged at training and at matches. I think that must have some impact onthe numbers and skill level of those that do emerge?

Other sports, probably more opportunities to take part, more facilities and better coaching than ever before. Those factors apply in reverse to the football.

J-C
13-10-2016, 08:01 PM
I don't really buy this fat,lazy kids excuse.Why is it we are producing more Olympic,World,European and UK champions and medalists than we ever have in numerous other sports? I think it's down to the level of coaching in football and the lack of any achievable plan to bring excellence through in a competitive team sport where clubs are fighting to steal a march on each other.



Just look at the investment in Cycling, swimming, gymnastics and athletics over the past 15 years or so, this has given loads more kids the chance to participate in the sports only ever seen at olympics and Commonwealth games.

Investment needs to be put into football, coaching and pitches.

Coaching badges cost a small fortune in this country for some reason, compared to say Holland.

ancient hibee
13-10-2016, 08:13 PM
Just look at the investment in Cycling, swimming, gymnastics and athletics over the past 15 years or so, this has given loads more kids the chance to participate in the sports only ever seen at olympics and Commonwealth games.

Investment needs to be put into football, coaching and pitches.

Coaching badges cost a small fortune in this country for some reason, compared to say Holland.
Can't think of any sports that are only ever seen at Olympics or Commonwealths.Unless you mean only seen on TV at these times.Most of the sports that we have produced champions for have usually many enthusiastic participants rather than spectators.They of course receive lottery money which will never come to football because there is no evidence that it would be spent wisely.Obviouly in professional football the biggest percentage of income is spent on wages.Trying to change that would be a Herculean task.
Warburton has a cheek.One of the reasons for poor development is the spendthrift ways of the OF when they were both income rich choosing to spend on players from out with Scotland instead of bringing through their own in a vain pursuit of European glory.

hibs#1
13-10-2016, 08:46 PM
I'm 28,I grew up in the nineties/early 2000s me my mates all had computers and laterely mobile phones but we also spend plenty of time out doors playing football and other activities

I would personally say when we got to a certain age it was other distractions that moved us away from sports at a serious level speaking for myself by the time I was 15 all I was interested in was girls parties drink drugs fags fighting clothes not really taking sport seriously after that and I wasnt the only one

Ps to add to that I'd actually say youngsters are much more savvy these days about keeping fit and eating healthy

Most of them want to post selfies of themselves in the gym and
being in good shape to show off

superfurryhibby
13-10-2016, 09:37 PM
I'm 28,I grew up in the nineties/early 2000s me my mates all had computers and laterely mobile phones but we also spend plenty of time out doors playing football and other activities

I would personally say when we got to a certain age it was other distractions that moved us away from sports at a serious level speaking for myself by the time I was 15 all I was interested in was girls parties drink drugs fags fighting clothes not really taking sport seriously after that and I wasnt the only one

Ps to add to that I'd actually say youngsters are much more savvy these days about keeping fit and eating healthy

Most of them want to post selfies of themselves in the gym and
being in good shape to show off

Obesity statistics suggest otherwise.

NAE NOOKIE
13-10-2016, 09:47 PM
Obesity statistics suggest otherwise.

I don't know about statistics, but at lunchtime in Galashiels half the kids from the high school pile into the town centre and for the most part there isn't enough fat on any of them to fry a chip .... it must just be big city kids.

J-C
13-10-2016, 10:34 PM
Can't think of any sports that are only ever seen at Olympics or Commonwealths.Unless you mean only seen on TV at these times.Most of the sports that we have produced champions for have usually many enthusiastic participants rather than spectators.They of course receive lottery money which will never come to football because there is no evidence that it would be spent wisely.Obviouly in professional football the biggest percentage of income is spent on wages.Trying to change that would be a Herculean task.
Warburton has a cheek.One of the reasons for poor development is the spendthrift ways of the OF when they were both income rich choosing to spend on players from out with Scotland instead of bringing through their own in a vain pursuit of European glory.


Yes is was sports like cycling etc that only ever gets shown at these games that get massive lottery monies spent on them for coaching and proper facilities to produce world and olympic champions, football could learn a lot from this, invest in grassroots and get the benefits in years to come. Whether the money is wisely spent is another thing altogether.

ScottB
13-10-2016, 11:07 PM
So Strachan has apparently decided to stay on for the England game, but then might leave, depending on the result.

If that's his attitude, then he should just go now.

superfurryhibby
14-10-2016, 07:31 AM
I don't know about statistics, but at lunchtime in Galashiels half the kids from the high school pile into the town centre and for the most part there isn't enough fat on any of them to fry a chip .... it must just be big city kids.

Discussion on Radio Scotland about obesity in children in Scotland just the other day, linking diet and lack of exercise to statistics around the rising numbers of adult diabetics etc.

The idea that our youngsters are eating well and staying fit is a bit far fetched. If we are going anectodal then my own 13 year olds views are good enough for me. He says most of his peers have no interest in playing football, many of them eat at the chippy, Greggs or Subway at lunchtime and many are just plain unfit and barely able to run the length of themselves.

Anyway, any takers for my observation that "cultural" issues around football linked to social factors contribute to lack of participation amongst sections of society. In Edinburgh c20% of children attend fee paying schools. I would bet my house on it that the percentage of those laddies playing at boys clubs is considerably less than those from other backgrounds. If that is the case then we are missing out on a swathe of potential footballers. I can count on one hand the number of Hibs players that attended the fee paying schools (Alan Gordon and Alex Harris spring to mind).

BoomtownHibees
14-10-2016, 08:03 AM
Discussion on Radio Scotland about obesity in children in Scotland just the other day, linking diet and lack of exercise to statistics around the rising numbers of adult diabetics etc.

The idea that our youngsters are eating well and staying fit is a bit far fetched. If we are going anectodal then my own 13 year olds views are good enough for me. He says most of his peers have no interest in playing football, many of them eat at the chippy, Greggs or Subway at lunchtime and many are just plain unfit and barely able to run the length of themselves.

Anyway, any takers for my observation that "cultural" issues around football linked to social factors contribute to lack of participation amongst sections of society. In Edinburgh c20% of children attend fee paying schools. I would bet my house on it that the percentage of those laddies playing at boys clubs is considerably less than those from other backgrounds. If that is the case then we are missing out on a swathe of potential footballers. I can count on one hand the number of Hibs players that attended the fee paying schools (Alan Gordon and Alex Harris spring to mind).

Talking of schools, the one that my daughter goes to does not have a full size football pitch, they don't have a football team and use a small multi-purpose astro turf for any outdoor PE.

Their sports day consists of 'potted sports'. No running, no races, no long jump or high jump, no real competitiveness as its all about the taking part.

That's where I think the failings are coming from. By the time these kids get to high school and beyond they have no concept of competition or winning and have absolutely no idea if they are any good at sports.

Kato
14-10-2016, 08:31 AM
I'm failing to see how some think it's a mystery as to why we are crap and still racking over the reasons and possible solutions. The solutions are there for everyone to see by looking at how other countries have improved. Facilities and qualified coaching is the answer - over the last 30-40 years the Scandinavian countries (inc Iceland) have shown this is how to improve the sport and bring more youngsters through. It's not a mystery, although the SFA would like you to think it is. We'll continue on the cycle of sacking and blaming managers for evermore unless there is investment, until then we'll spiral further down the rankings and look more and more antiquated.

JimBHibees
14-10-2016, 08:36 AM
Anyway, any takers for my observation that "cultural" issues around football linked to social factors contribute to lack of participation amongst sections of society. In Edinburgh c20% of children attend fee paying schools. I would bet my house on it that the percentage of those laddies playing at boys clubs is considerably less than those from other backgrounds. If that is the case then we are missing out on a swathe of potential footballers. I can count on one hand the number of Hibs players that attended the fee paying schools (Alan Gordon and Alex Harris spring to mind).

Agree with that ironically the fee paying schools sporting facilities tend to be top of the range and amazing however the preference is obviously towards other sports such as rugby and cricket etc. Alot is social I think their used to be loads of kids playing football because everyone did it now with sateliite tv, computer gadgets, the number of cars allied to pretty average facilities in certain areas much less are participating even in a purely social sense e.g just playing with mates rather than organised teams.

hibs#1
14-10-2016, 06:04 PM
Obesity statistics suggest otherwise.

You could be right but did even bother wasting people's time previously with surveys on peoples weight?seems theirs an obsession with surveys these days and also statistics can be misleading as far as I can see when people get to teens now they want to show off on instagram and Facebook so they like to look good by going to the gym and the likes

Hibby Bairn
14-10-2016, 07:18 PM
My son (15) trains for club/school on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and plays matches Saturday and Sunday. He also plays Xbox and watches sport on TV. He is fit and slim.

But...even although playing football 5 days a week at most this equates to circa 7.5 hours pw. Add in say another 5 hours of kicking a ball around with mates and you might get to 12 hours pw. Most of it structured and coached.

The issue is 12 hours a week is no use. It needs to be at least double this and more unstructured. When I was 12/13 I would play loads of games with less than 5 mates. 2v3...seven byes....one touch 1v1 in the street...2 touch long bangers...shapes against a wall...hitting a ball myself against a wall....etc. Plus games of 10 a side with players of all ages.

All of this is lost. Everything is structured coaching and all in same age group. Mostly you are told to play a certain position.

Trying to reintroduce this street football culture into players up to age 12 would help a lot. But our coaches think we need cones, mannequins, fast feet ladders etc. Nonsense.

fat freddy
15-10-2016, 09:59 AM
My son (15) trains for club/school on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and plays matches Saturday and Sunday. He also plays Xbox and watches sport on TV. He is fit and slim.

But...even although playing football 5 days a week at most this equates to circa 7.5 hours pw. Add in say another 5 hours of kicking a ball around with mates and you might get to 12 hours pw. Most of it structured and coached.

The issue is 12 hours a week is no use. It needs to be at least double this and more unstructured. When I was 12/13 I would play loads of games with less than 5 mates. 2v3...seven byes....one touch 1v1 in the street...2 touch long bangers...shapes against a wall...hitting a ball myself against a wall....etc. Plus games of 10 a side with players of all ages.

All of this is lost. Everything is structured coaching and all in same age group. Mostly you are told to play a certain position.

Trying to reintroduce this street football culture into players up to age 12 would help a lot. But our coaches think we need cones, mannequins, fast feet ladders etc. Nonsense.

I seldom agree with a Tory but you have a point, kids just don't play enough un coached football, the type of football that allows you to be greedy with the ball, to go on a mazy, to get you used to the feel of the ball, to find your own game, to fall in love with the ball. When I was a kid growing up in Porty everyone played from the minute we got in from school until we were called in by our mums, the ball went everywhere with us, we played ALL the time, me and my brother had a pitch in the kitchen, the hall, our bedroom, the garden, the park across the street, the promenade, the paddling pool, the beach when the tide was out, if it was flat it was a football pitch, we even took a ball up Arthur's Seat and done keepie uppies all the way to the top. We just played all the time, as did our pals.My youngest (11) plays for 2 teams, trains twice a week and the only other football he does is when I drag him out for a kick about in the park plus 1 hour per week at youth club. I doubt if anyone in his class plays much more than him, they all do other activities besides football. You can break it down to less than 10 hours per week, most of that being structured with a coach giving instructions most of the time. This is clearly not going to produce a top class player, in the seventies me and my pals were probably playing closer to 30 hours per week, the vast majority unstructured and free of coaches yelling what to do next. We had the freedom to find our own style and the cream of our generation were massively more successful than the guys who are representing our nation at the minute. The only way to
produce better footballers is for footballers to play more football from a young age but I can't see that happening on the scale it once did for the mountain of reasons mentioned in previous posts. I think we are just going to have to accept that the quality of player we produce will be inferior to those we used to produce. On a brighter note, I just got an email informing me that I have a ticket for Wembley! and I'm not even a tartan army member!