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G B Young
09-10-2016, 04:43 PM
A couple of quotes from Lennon post-match made me wonder just whether he knows how to get this team performing as strongly as we feel it should be.

Firstly he stated that he was trying out a different shape, giving the side more width with Harris and Boyle, but said "that wasn't working".

Is half an hour really long enough to make that call? And if so, he must have been deeply unimpressed by the players in question. Which makes you wonder why he bothered trying to play with wide players at all. He never signed any in the summer and even let one go (Carmichael), leaving him with a couple of players in Boyle and Harris who blow hot and cold and are never regular starters. Or did he just go with this line-up in a relatively low key cup tie just to pay lip service to those calling for more width and to prove to them it doesn't work?

Secondly, and perhaps more concerningly, he claimed "not to know what's going through the players' minds". Pre season he made a big play of toughening up his squad both physically and mentally and at the time he seemed to be right on the money when it came to assessing what our weaknesses have been for many years. His quote yesterday implies he's kind of given up on trying to suss out why we remain so mentally weak. Is he failing to get his message across to the players or are they simply failing to respond to his style of management?

In addition to Lennon's quotes, another growing concern is our lacklustre home form. We've now lost all three home cup ties we've played at ER as well as to Ayr in the league. Nowhere near good enough if we want to build up a reputation as uncompromising and tough to beat.

I remain hopeful that Lennon will prove to be just the man we need to haul us out of this league but it's no surprise the doubts are beginning to creep in. The prospect of so quickly losing much of the goodwill banked by the club following the Scottish Cup win is a depressing one and something we must avoid at all costs.

Deansy
09-10-2016, 04:57 PM
A couple of quotes from Lennon post-match made me wonder just whether he knows how to get this team performing as strongly as we feel it should be.

Firstly he stated that he was trying out a different shape, giving the side more width with Harris and Boyle, but said "that wasn't working".

Is half an hour really long enough to make that call? And if so, he must have been deeply unimpressed by the players in question. Which makes you wonder why he bothered trying to play with wide players at all. He never signed any in the summer and even let one go (Carmichael), leaving him with a couple of players in Boyle and Harris who blow hot and cold and are never regular starters. Or did he just go with this line-up in a relatively low key cup tie just to pay lip service to those calling for more width and to prove to them it doesn't work?

Secondly, and perhaps more concerningly, he claimed "not to know what's going through the players' minds". Pre season he made a big play of toughening up his squad both physically and mentally and at the time he seemed to be right on the money when it came to assessing what our weaknesses have been for many years. His quote yesterday implies he's kind of given up on trying to suss out why we remain so mentally weak. Is he failing to get his message across to the players or are they simply failing to respond to his style of management?

In addition to Lennon's quotes, another growing concern is our lacklustre home form. We've now lost all three home cup ties we've played at ER as well as to Ayr in the league. Nowhere near good enough if we want to build up a reputation as uncompromising and tough to beat.

I remain hopeful that Lennon will prove to be just the man we need to haul us out of this league but it's no surprise the doubts are beginning to creep in. The prospect of so quickly losing much of the goodwill banked by the club following the Scottish Cup win is a depressing one and something we must avoid at all costs.

Probably our biggest weakness and has been for years - we just never seem to sign players with the necessary mental-toughness to be successsful !!. More than one poster yeterday mentioned the players don't seem to like Lennon shouting/cajoling/urging etc constantly throughout the game. if that IS the case, then we've been over that road before in Collin's time in charge - a bunch of wee-laddies who don't like being yelled at and so decide to not give a XXXX !.

brog
09-10-2016, 05:13 PM
A couple of quotes from Lennon post-match made me wonder just whether he knows how to get this team performing as strongly as we feel it should be.

Firstly he stated that he was trying out a different shape, giving the side more width with Harris and Boyle, but said "that wasn't working".

Is half an hour really long enough to make that call? And if so, he must have been deeply unimpressed by the players in question. Which makes you wonder why he bothered trying to play with wide players at all. He never signed any in the summer and even let one go (Carmichael), leaving him with a couple of players in Boyle and Harris who blow hot and cold and are never regular starters. Or did he just go with this line-up in a relatively low key cup tie just to pay lip service to those calling for more width and to prove to them it doesn't work?

Secondly, and perhaps more concerningly, he claimed "not to know what's going through the players' minds". Pre season he made a big play of toughening up his squad both physically and mentally and at the time he seemed to be right on the money when it came to assessing what our weaknesses have been for many years. His quote yesterday implies he's kind of given up on trying to suss out why we remain so mentally weak. Is he failing to get his message across to the players or are they simply failing to respond to his style of management?

In addition to Lennon's quotes, another growing concern is our lacklustre home form. We've now lost all three home cup ties we've played at ER as well as to Ayr in the league. Nowhere near good enough if we want to build up a reputation as uncompromising and tough to beat.

I remain hopeful that Lennon will prove to be just the man we need to haul us out of this league but it's no surprise the doubts are beginning to creep in. The prospect of so quickly losing much of the goodwill banked by the club following the Scottish Cup win is a depressing one and something we must avoid at all costs.

I posted similar on another thread. We scored in about 37 minutes & according to Lennon he'd already changed us back to a diamond by them. That's bizarre!

Borderhibbie76
09-10-2016, 05:14 PM
If the players don't like being told what to do then show them where the door is and fast....we need to get up at all costs this season and if they don't have the stomach for the fight get rid - sick of these overpaid so called professionals letting us down time and again in them is ****ty league. Lennon is damn right calling them a "disgrace" and if they miss the mamby pamby approach of Stubbsy - send them on a bus to Rotherham to join him

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MWHIBBIES
09-10-2016, 05:16 PM
Probably our biggest weakness and has been for years - we just never seem to sign players with the necessary mental-toughness to be successsful !!. More than one poster yeterday mentioned the players don't seem to like Lennon shouting/cajoling/urging etc constantly throughout the game. if that IS the case, then we've been over that road before in Collin's time in charge - a bunch of wee-laddies who don't like being yelled at and so decide to not give a XXXX !.Why is it the players to blame? These players won the Scottish cup under the previous manager, I'd say the evidence might be in favour of them.

brog
09-10-2016, 05:18 PM
Probably our biggest weakness and has been for years - we just never seem to sign players with the necessary mental-toughness to be successsful !!. More than one poster yeterday mentioned the players don't seem to like Lennon shouting/cajoling/urging etc constantly throughout the game. if that IS the case, then we've been over that road before in Collin's time in charge - a bunch of wee-laddies who don't like being yelled at and so decide to not give a XXXX !.

This bunch of players showed enough mental toughness to come back from 2 down against Yams & IIRC displayed great fortitude to win a wee game on 21 May. Maybe they just respond better to encouragement rather than our manager denigrating our players, in particular our 21 year old top scorer, in the press.

Borderhibbie76
09-10-2016, 05:23 PM
Why is it the players to blame? These players won the Scottish cup under the previous manager, I'd say the evidence might be in favour of them.
They did but they also let us down time and again against the likes of Alloa Dumbarton and Morton over the last 2 seasons in this league and are doing so again. They can't live off the cup win for evermore mate...we need up!!!

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blackpoolhibs
09-10-2016, 05:28 PM
They did but they also let us down time and again against the likes of Alloa Dumbarton and Morton over the last 2 seasons in this league and are doing so again. They can't live off the cup win for evermore mate...we need up!!!

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Exactly, although a new manager has come in and we all hoped he'd take us on and instill a winning mental toughness to get us out this league, a weaker league than previous years.

First signs were good, but things are back to normal now. :rolleyes:

Franck Stanton
09-10-2016, 05:32 PM
Why is it the players to blame? These players won the Scottish cup under the previous manager, I'd say the evidence might be in favour of them.


They are also the players who failed in the most important goal of last season - promotion.

allezsauzee
09-10-2016, 05:32 PM
This bunch of players showed enough mental toughness to come back from 2 down against Yams & IIRC displayed great fortitude to win a wee game on 21 May. Maybe they just respond better to encouragement rather than our manager denigrating our players, in particular our 21 year old top scorer, in the press.

If they can't take a bit of criticism when it's deserved they're not going to go very far in this game

Betty Boop
09-10-2016, 05:37 PM
Lennon should stop commenting on all things Celtic now, so annoying.

Itsnoteasy
09-10-2016, 05:41 PM
If they can't take a bit of criticism when it's deserved they're not going to go very far in this game

Is RP's hoose going to get a visit soon fi a team full of guisers.

Mr White
09-10-2016, 05:43 PM
Lennon should stop commenting on all things Celtic now, so annoying.

:agree: that would be a good start but I'll be amazed if it happens unfortunately.

SRHibs
09-10-2016, 05:47 PM
I said it before in another thread, but I don't really think we benefit that much from playing at home. ER just isn't an intimidating place to come to for opposition teams. The atmosphere is pretty dreadful, and even when we do get a decent amount of singing, it just doesn't hold the same intimidating atmosphere that it did when the old East was still there. Don't get me wrong, we've got a class stadium, but I just wish there was a way to make it retain noise a bit better.

G B Young
09-10-2016, 05:49 PM
It does seem daft that professional football players can't handle a bit of a bollocking from the dugout but we've been down that road before with disastrous consequences under Butcher. I'd like to think Lennon is considerably more savvy about dealing with all aspects of man management than Terry was, but then I thought John Collins was just the man to instil a winning mentality and he ended up with a player revolt on his hands despite winning a b****y cup. The players seemed to prefer Mowbray's calmer approach and you could draw parallels now with Stubbs and Lennon. I think we just have to hope that after a mediocre report card so far, Lennon does actually combine all aspects of the sort of mangement required to get the best out of these players and that come next year we'll be glad we gave him time to put his stamp on the team.

Pete
09-10-2016, 05:49 PM
Is RP's hoose going to get a visit soon fi a team full of guisers.

Or clowns?

brog
09-10-2016, 05:51 PM
If they can't take a bit of criticism when it's deserved they're not going to go very far in this game

I have no problem with criticism when it's deserved. I do have a problem when it's continually made public, IMO it should stay within the club. Shankly & Ferguson were famous for defending their players to the outside world even if they ripped them up in the dressing room. I also have a problem with misdirected criticism. Why target our young striker who's scored 8 times as many league goals as our 2nd top scorer? For me at present Lennon is more worthy of criticism than the players. He needs to reduce his media obligations, realise he's in a great job at a great club & give the job the attention it deserves.

G B Young
09-10-2016, 05:53 PM
I said it before in another thread, but I don't really think we benefit that much from playing at home. ER just isn't an intimidating place to come to for opposition teams. The atmosphere is pretty dreadful, and even when we do get a decent amount of singing, it just doesn't hold the same intimidating atmosphere that it did when the old East was still there. Don't get me wrong, we've got a class stadium, but I just wish there was a way to make it retain noise a bit better.

I know what you're saying, but I honestly don't think we can blame the stadium. Just think back to recent wins over Hearts or The Rangers. There's a terrific atmosphere when there's a product on the pitch worth getting excited about and with the crowds we're getting at present there's the potential for plenty of noise if the the football on the park wasn't so dull. I know the big games tend to generate their own atmosphere but if we were witnessing a Hibs team which looked like it was going to blow teams off the park in this league rather than tip tapping around uncertainly then we'd hear more than enough backing from the stands.

brog
09-10-2016, 05:54 PM
I said it before in another thread, but I don't really think we benefit that much from playing at home. ER just isn't an intimidating place to come to for opposition teams. The atmosphere is pretty dreadful, and even when we do get a decent amount of singing, it just doesn't hold the same intimidating atmosphere that it did when the old East was still there. Don't get me wrong, we've got a class stadium, but I just wish there was a way to make it retain noise a bit better.

We lost 1 home game all last season, beat Yams, Sheep & Sevco twice. We've lost 4 home games this season, 3 when we've had a lead. The crowd & the stadium aren't to blame.

allezsauzee
09-10-2016, 06:05 PM
I have no problem with criticism when it's deserved. I do have a problem when it's continually made public, IMO it should stay within the club. Shankly & Ferguson were famous for defending their players to the outside world even if they ripped them up in the dressing room. I also have a problem with misdirected criticism. Why target our young striker who's scored 8 times as many league goals as our 2nd top scorer? For me at present Lennon is more worthy of criticism than the players. He needs to reduce his media obligations, realise he's in a great job at a great club & give the job the attention it deserves.

yes maybe Lennon should give the outside world the impression that we'll settle for getting beat by the likes of St Mirren and Ayr United at home.:rolleyes:

CRAZYHIBBY
09-10-2016, 06:21 PM
Lennon should stop commenting on all things Celtic now, so annoying.

Exactly im sick to the back teeth of him and his celtic chat

brog
09-10-2016, 06:25 PM
yes maybe Lennon should give the outside world the impression that we'll settle for getting beat by the likes of St Mirren and Ayr United at home.:rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. The template for good management, whether in business or sport should be that the manager takes the responsibility for success or failure. The sign of bad management is when the manager abdicates that responsibility & publicly blames his staff or players. So far this season Jason Cumming's performance is significantly better than NL's.

Peanut Shaz
09-10-2016, 06:29 PM
I may be wrong with my thoughts on the situation and expect to find a few people will disagree with me. However I think that Lennon may be struggling as he has always managed at a higher level with more talented and experienced players. I honestly don't think he knows how to manage at this level. I know he probably should be able to adapt but I have my doubts. It wouldn't surprise me if he walked before the end of the season.

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2016, 06:33 PM
They did but they also let us down time and again against the likes of Alloa Dumbarton and Morton over the last 2 seasons in this league and are doing so again. They can't live off the cup win for evermore mate...we need up!!!

Sent from my SM-G920F using TapatalkThe players didn't let me down once. I couldn't fault the effort of a single one of them at any point under Stubbs. Sometimes they had poor games, that happens. Sometimes Stubbs got it wrong, the 3 major injuries during that run of hard away games didn't help either.

As things stand Stubbs was getting far more out of these players than Lennon is, that is worrying.

allezsauzee
09-10-2016, 06:35 PM
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. The template for good management, whether in business or sport should be that the manager takes the responsibility for success or failure. The sign of bad management is when the manager abdicates that responsibility & publicly blames his staff or players. So far this season Jason Cumming's performance is significantly better than NL's.

If tactical inepititude or lack of preparation is the reason for a poor result then I would say yes the manager should take the blame. If players haven't performed to their capabilities or carried out a realistic expectation of the manager then the manager is within his rights to criticise players.

emerald green
09-10-2016, 06:42 PM
If tactical inepititude or lack of preparation is the reason for a poor result then I would say yes the manager should take the blame. If players haven't performed to their capabilities or carried out a realistic expectation of the manager then the manager is within his rights to criticise players.

Yes, but do the criticism in private. Not in the newspapers, some of whom will possibly twist and sensationalise things.

Remember Butcher? That didn't work out well.

familyman
09-10-2016, 06:43 PM
I may be wrong with my thoughts on the situation and expect to find a few people will disagree with me. However I think that Lennon may be struggling as he has always managed at a higher level with more talented and experienced players. I honestly don't think he knows how to manage at this level. I know he probably should be able to adapt but I have my doubts. It wouldn't surprise me if he walked before the end of the season.
I doubt very much if Neil will go early as I see him as someone who is determined and has a passion, something sadly lacking in his team though.Neil picks the players and yes he has got some of that wrong,Shinnie for example has yet to do anything of note, the old guard who got us relegated are problems still and kinda stuck in their own mind set it seems to me at any rate.
Are we now talking about January signings to lift the deflated mood we are now going through so early in a season I wonder.
Harris was never really good enough for the first team ,my usual concern about left back limitations remain and we seem destined for a long haul unless attitudes change very fast indeed...are payments by results no longer an option these days?
We are supposed to have a team capable of running away with the title according to some, well remember this is football and Hibs..so fasten your seat belts.

SunshineOnLeith
09-10-2016, 06:52 PM
You could replace 'Lennon' with 'Butcher' or 'Malpas' in some of the posts in this thread and you'd have some of posts defending the management towards the end of the relegation season.

QMU-1875
09-10-2016, 06:58 PM
Lennon is having a mare at the moment but no doubt the players are the main issue. Mentally they are all losers, bar a remarkable Scottish cup win in the last minute last season could have been a disaster. We need up and I don't believe this team is tough enough to be champions. Please prove me wrong...

Johnny_Leith
09-10-2016, 07:10 PM
These lads prefer carrot to stick.

Lennon is more of a stick man.

Speedway
09-10-2016, 07:38 PM
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Hibs head coach Neil Lennon slammed his side’s ‘amateur’ defending and accused some of them of hiding after watching St Mirren come from behind to win Saturday’s Irn-Bru Cup clash.

The hosts had led through Alex Harris’ 37th minute strike before Stevie Mallan levelled four minutes later with a stunning free-kick.

Substitute David Clarkson scored what proved to the winner in the 82nd minute after captain David Gray conceded possession.


Neil-LennonThe Leith side have now failed to win any of their last four matches and Lennon was furious with manner of the defeat to Saints.

He said: “We’re losing to St Mirren at home and that shouldn’t be happening. I think some of them are hiding at the minute. It’s definitely a psychological thing, it’s not a physical thing.

“In the main, I’m not getting what I want from the players so that’s something I need to address.

“It (the winning goal) should never get to that position in the first place. It’s nonsense from us, it’s amateur stuff and it needs to stop.

“It’s senior players as well with no thought about what they’re doing. Maybe I need to look at myself and ask what I’m doing wrong but we train them as well as we can.”

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 07:39 PM
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Hibs head coach Neil Lennon slammed his side’s ‘amateur’ defending and accused some of them of hiding after watching St Mirren come from behind to win Saturday’s Irn-Bru Cup clash.

The hosts had led through Alex Harris’ 37th minute strike before Stevie Mallan levelled four minutes later with a stunning free-kick.

Substitute David Clarkson scored what proved to the winner in the 82nd minute after captain David Gray conceded possession.


Neil-LennonThe Leith side have now failed to win any of their last four matches and Lennon was furious with manner of the defeat to Saints.

He said: “We’re losing to St Mirren at home and that shouldn’t be happening. I think some of them are hiding at the minute. It’s definitely a psychological thing, it’s not a physical thing.

“In the main, I’m not getting what I want from the players so that’s something I need to address.

“It (the winning goal) should never get to that position in the first place. It’s nonsense from us, it’s amateur stuff and it needs to stop.

“It’s senior players as well with no thought about what they’re doing. Maybe I need to look at myself and ask what I’m doing wrong but we train them as well as we can.”

Is NL saying anything different to what the fans are seeing? He is 100% spot on

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2016, 08:11 PM
Lennon is having a mare at the moment but no doubt the players are the main issue. Mentally they are all losers, bar a remarkable Scottish cup win in the last minute last season could have been a disaster. We need up and I don't believe this team is tough enough to be champions. Please prove me wrong...Have you seen some of the garbage that has been promoted over the years? This team is clearly good enough and to call them all losers and downplay their Scottish cup win is pathetic. To overcome everything the did and win the Scottish cup shows they aren't losers. This team don't need to prove you wrong, you are quite clearly wrong right now.

silverhibee
09-10-2016, 08:22 PM
Is NL saying anything different to what the fans are seeing? He is 100% spot on

Of course he is spot on, he should have kept it for the dressing room though, silly to let other managers know in this league that he is having problems with the players, and saying things like " amateurish " about the players, won't go down well with the senior players, is he trying to turn the fans against the players here.

He should be airing his views to the players and not be giving the media ammunition to slaughter our team.

ancient hibee
09-10-2016, 08:25 PM
Have you seen some of the garbage that has been promoted over the years? This team is clearly good enough and to call them all losers and downplay their Scottish cup win is pathetic. To overcome everything the did and win the Scottish cup shows they aren't losers. This team don't need to prove you wrong, you are quite clearly wrong right now.

The team was not expected to win the cup and did brilliantly to do so.But in my opinion they did it as underdogs.Now they are expected to win,they are the biggest club in the league and most of them have not been in this position before and are having difficulty in coping.

brog
09-10-2016, 08:30 PM
Of course he is spot on, he should have kept it for the dressing room though, silly to let other managers know in this league that he is having problems with the players, and saying things like " amateurish " about the players, won't go down well with the senior players, is he trying to turn the fans against the players here.

He should be airing his views to the players and not be giving the media ammunition to slaughter our team.

100% correct! As I've been saying, I have no problem with his criticism but it should be kept for the dressing room. What really concerns me is I believe he may be trying to deflect from his own errors in the areas of signings, tactics & substitutions. The team & the manager need to pull together.

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 08:33 PM
100% correct! As I've been saying, I have no problem with his criticism but it should be kept for the dressing room. What really concerns me is I believe he may be trying to deflect from his own errors in the areas of signings, tactics & substitutions. The team & the manager need to pull together.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. If he came out and said he wasn't happy with performance of the team, would that have been better?

blackpoolhibs
09-10-2016, 08:36 PM
Last season folk were slating Stubs for not having a go at the players because he was always defending them, if the players want praise from their manager then start ****in winning games.

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 08:39 PM
Last season folk were slating Stubs for not having a go at the players because he was always defending them, if the players want praise from their manager then start ****in winning games.

:top marks

B.H.F.C
09-10-2016, 08:48 PM
Last season folk were slating Stubs for not having a go at the players because he was always defending them, if the players want praise from their manager then start ****in winning games.

Exactly. Back at the start of the season when we were winning every week he was only too happy to come out and praise them and often commented on individual players.

At that point the players were only too happy to come out and talk about how his harder line approach was fine by them. Suddenly, after a few dodgy results, the stories about unrest start to pop up.

Wheat Hound
09-10-2016, 08:52 PM
Last season folk were slating Stubs for not having a go at the players because he was always defending them, if the players want praise from their manager then start ****in winning games.

Spot on mate

WhileTheChief..
09-10-2016, 08:57 PM
I listened to Lennon's interview after the game and agreed with everything he said. If anything it gives me more confidence that we have have the right manager in place.

He he was also correct about Cummings and certainly wasn't slating him. Just said that he needed to work on some of his game outside the box and that he wanted to try other options up front.

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 08:59 PM
I listened to Lennon's interview after the game and agreed with everything he said. If anything it gives me more confidence that we have have the right manager in place.

He he was also correct about Cummings and certainly wasn't slating him. Just said that he needed to work on some of his game outside the box and that he wanted to try other options up front.

:agree::agree:

greenlex
09-10-2016, 09:04 PM
I've seen this movie before. If we had another three seasons and 6 windows with him at the helm we might just get up but we need up this season. We need to get up with these players. A good manager would manage this group of players who are more than good enough. It'll end in tears.

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 09:10 PM
I've seen this movie before. If we had another three seasons and 6 windows with him at the helm we might just get up but we need up this season. We need to get up with these players. A good manager would manage this group of players who are more than good enough. It'll end in tears.

Might just have a happy ending A....:wink:

greenlex
09-10-2016, 09:17 PM
Might just have a happy ending A....:wink:

God I hope so B. As you can tell I'm far from convinced.

Baldy Foghorn
09-10-2016, 09:20 PM
God I hope so B. As you can tell I'm far from convinced.

Yeah, time will tell I suppose

NAE NOOKIE
09-10-2016, 09:38 PM
Lennon is having a mare at the moment but no doubt the players are the main issue. Mentally they are all losers, bar a remarkable Scottish cup win in the last minute last season could have been a disaster. We need up and I don't believe this team is tough enough to be champions. Please prove me wrong...

Rubbish ...... They need to find a way to break down packed defences and to cut out loss of concentration at the back at times. If you are going to justify tagging them as 'mental losers' then you have to show me a big game where they didn't step up. I haven't seen a Hibs team take the field in the last two seasons where they didn't give everything on the park.

Coming back from 2 - 0 down at Tynecastle, beating just about every team in the top half of the premier league to get to 2 cup finals, beating ICT away from home just days after losing a cup final we deserved to win, beating Brondby away from home, a result that would have taken us into the next round but for a shocking offside decision in the first leg. Sometimes we have lost form, sometimes we have lost stupid goals, sometimes we have been plain unlucky like not getting the most blatant penalty you will ever see in the first leg against Falkirk last season.

Falkirk were lucky to beat us in the play offs, but obviously they were mentally tougher than us coz they finished above us in the league, where was that mental toughness when they got creamed by Kilmarnock who had been utter garbage all season.

ancient hibee
09-10-2016, 09:56 PM
Rubbish ...... They need to find a way to break down packed defences and to cut out loss of concentration at the back at times. If you are going to justify tagging them as 'mental losers' then you have to show me a big game where they didn't step up. I haven't seen a Hibs team take the field in the last two seasons where they didn't give everything on the park.

Coming back from 2 - 0 down at Tynecastle, beating just about every team in the top half of the premier league to get to 2 cup finals, beating ICT away from home just days after losing a cup final we deserved to win, beating Brondby away from home, a result that would have taken us into the next round but for a shocking offside decision in the first leg. Sometimes we have lost form, sometimes we have lost stupid goals, sometimes we have been plain unlucky like not getting the most blatant penalty you will ever see in the first leg against Falkirk last season.

Falkirk were lucky to beat us in the play offs, but obviously they were mentally tougher than us coz they finished above us in the league, where was that mental toughness when they got creamed by Kilmarnock who had been utter garbage all season.


It's not the big games that are the problem but the ones they are expected to win.That is surely obvious by now.

matty_f
09-10-2016, 09:59 PM
It's not the big games that are the problem but the ones they are expected to win.That is surely obvious by now.

They've won plenty that they were expected to win.

DH1875
09-10-2016, 10:00 PM
I listened to Lennon's interview after the game and agreed with everything he said. If anything it gives me more confidence that we have have the right manager in place.

He he was also correct about Cummings and certainly wasn't slating him. Just said that he needed to work on some of his game outside the box and that he wanted to try other options up front.

I listened to it as well but thought the opposite. Thought he came across as not having a clue, like genuinely not knowing how to fix things. Sure he said "I don't know" as an answer to some of the questions.

QMU-1875
09-10-2016, 10:02 PM
Rubbish ...... They need to find a way to break down packed defences and to cut out loss of concentration at the back at times. If you are going to justify tagging them as 'mental losers' then you have to show me a big game where they didn't step up. I haven't seen a Hibs team take the field in the last two seasons where they didn't give everything on the park.

Coming back from 2 - 0 down at Tynecastle, beating just about every team in the top half of the premier league to get to 2 cup finals, beating ICT away from home just days after losing a cup final we deserved to win, beating Brondby away from home, a result that would have taken us into the next round but for a shocking offside decision in the first leg. Sometimes we have lost form, sometimes we have lost stupid goals, sometimes we have been plain unlucky like not getting the most blatant penalty you will ever see in the first leg against Falkirk last season.

Falkirk were lucky to beat us in the play offs, but obviously they were mentally tougher than us coz they finished above us in the league, where was that mental toughness when they got creamed by Kilmarnock who had been utter garbage all season.

Was going to point out the times they lost in big games but you done all the hard work for me.

silverhibee
09-10-2016, 10:04 PM
I've seen this movie before. If we had another three seasons and 6 windows with him at the helm we might just get up but we need up this season. We need to get up with these players. A good manager would manage this group of players who are more than good enough. It'll end in tears.

I think come the end of the season he will have us back in the top flight big chap, as you say the players are good enough to get us back up there and we will strengthen in January as well, and by that time I expect us to be sitting top of the league, this time round the other teams won't be able to keep up what they are doing just now and will eventually fall away as the season goes on, once the players by in to his way of doing things we will be well clear of the teams around of us just now and go on to win the league with a couple of games to spare.

QMU-1875
09-10-2016, 10:06 PM
Have you seen some of the garbage that has been promoted over the years? This team is clearly good enough and to call them all losers and downplay their Scottish cup win is pathetic. To overcome everything the did and win the Scottish cup shows they aren't losers. This team don't need to prove you wrong, you are quite clearly wrong right now.
I seen hearts go nearly a full season undefeated hammering every team they played and Rangers batter the majority of teams also with the odd slip up. I've not seen this team consistently batter the sides in this league. We tend to win by the odd goal (leaving ourselves open to the other team nicking something) having dominated and not taking our chances. I think we don't take our chances because the team isn't ruthless enough/ have the desire required to win. They done it in the Scottish cup final sure but can't do it consistently.

greenlex
09-10-2016, 10:18 PM
I think come the end of the season he will have us back in the top flight big chap, as you say the players are good enough to get us back up there and we will strengthen in January as well, and by that time I expect us to be sitting top of the league, this time round the other teams won't be able to keep up what they are doing just now and will eventually fall away as the season goes on, once the players by in to his way of doing things we will be well clear of the teams around of us just now and go on to win the league with a couple of games to spare.
I like that Movie.👍

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2016, 10:24 PM
I seen hearts go nearly a full season undefeated hammering every team they played and Rangers batter the majority of teams also with the odd slip up. I've not seen this team consistently batter the sides in this league. We tend to win by the odd goal (leaving ourselves open to the other team nicking something) having dominated and not taking our chances. I think we don't take our chances because the team isn't ruthless enough/ have the desire required to win. They done it in the Scottish cup final sure but can't do it consistently.Maybe those teams had better managers who could get more out of equally talented players?

FWIW I don't think it's an either/or scenario but I don't think the players are the ones I'd be looking at first. If they were performing to their best and getting beat I'd be questioning their ability but they are playing worse than last season and the only change is the manager.

FitbaFolkKen
09-10-2016, 10:29 PM
Have you seen some of the garbage that has been promoted over the years? This team is clearly good enough and to call them all losers and downplay their Scottish cup win is pathetic. To overcome everything the did and win the Scottish cup shows they aren't losers. This team don't need to prove you wrong, you are quite clearly wrong right now.

How is he wrong? We finished third last season and are sitting in second. On our day we are a match for anyone but there is obviously some kind of block that prevents us from doing it convincingly on a regular basis. It's not ability it is as Lennon says psychological. This team has not shown it has what it takes to win the league.

B.H.F.C
09-10-2016, 10:31 PM
Maybe those teams had better managers who could get more out of equally talented players?

FWIW I don't think it's an either/or scenario but I don't think the players are the ones I'd be looking at first. If they were performing to their best and getting beat I'd be questioning their ability but they are playing worse than last season and the only change is the manager.

In terms of the league are they really playing worse than last year? Only lost 1 in 8 and, without checking, I'd guess that we are probably sitting with more points than at this time last year.

It just looks like more of the same to me with the issues from last year not addressed.

J-C
09-10-2016, 10:47 PM
After watching the dire game against Dundee U, the one thing that stood out for me was the totally slack and lazy football on display and the inability of quite a few of our players to do some of the basics like passing a ball 15 yds without it either going to an opponent or being over hit. I must have watched every defender and midfielder doing it at least once that game and listening to the game on saturday, the commentators said Fyvie passing at times was shocking.

There seems to be a discontent amongst the players, the smile is no longer on their faces, maybe the reality of some real home truths from their manager is sinking in. These players seem to be living of the cup win and are forgetting there's a league to be won and we need to roll our sleeves up and do it, not just turn up and we'll win.

There's a reason they're playing at Hibs, they have enough flaws in their game and psyche which makes them not good enough for top teams.

silverhibee
09-10-2016, 11:13 PM
Did I mention Michael Ballack went through Edinburgh airport tonight.

The plot thickens. :greengrin

MWHIBBIES
09-10-2016, 11:20 PM
How is he wrong? We finished third last season and are sitting in second. On our day we are a match for anyone but there is obviously some kind of block that prevents us from doing it convincingly on a regular basis. It's not ability it is as Lennon says psychological. This team has not shown it has what it takes to win the league.So unless players win every week they are losers? Mentally this team has been through more than any side in our history, especially guys like Hanlon and Stevenson, and they came out of it with the Scottish cup. They have shown multiple times that they are quality players and given us some incredible wins. They are not losers. If not for the injuries we would have been a comfortable 2nd place/maybe even 1st with the poor run Rangers had at the end. IMO the quality and mental attributes of our team aren't the problem, the way they are being utilised is.


In terms of the league are they really playing worse than last year? Only lost 1 in 8 and, without checking, I'd guess that we are probably sitting with more points than at this time last year.

It just looks like more of the same to me with the issues from last year not addressed.We are playing worse than last year IMO, our home form was excellent last season and has been dreadful this.

Forza Fred
09-10-2016, 11:40 PM
There were some who pooh poohed the fact that Lennon's pre season media commitments would have an effect on his understanding of our needs and we would suffer from his lack of attention at a critical time.

I think we have, and am now starting to consider whether Lennon really treats THIS job as a 'make or break' indication of his managerial ability, or whether he basically views it as his footballing equivalent of a 'gap year'...whereas it would be nice if we won promotion, but if things don't go as hoped, it can be dismissed as, , 'hey ho..not really a full on job'....

I agree that his constant comments re Celtic are not helpful to the perception that we are maybe not uppermost in his thoughts sometimes.

I DO hope my perceptions are wrong, and he supplies what is needed though...

ekhibee
10-10-2016, 02:14 AM
Have you seen some of the garbage that has been promoted over the years? This team is clearly good enough and to call them all losers and downplay their Scottish cup win is pathetic. To overcome everything the did and win the Scottish cup shows they aren't losers. This team don't need to prove you wrong, you are quite clearly wrong right now.
What do you mean overcoming everything they did? In two seasons we've blatantly failed to get promoted back into the top league, that's worse than any other Hibs team I can remember. No, they're not losers and we will all remember the Scottish Cup win, but the very fact that they do have plenty of ability makes you question the attitude of the team if they can't even finish 2nd in the Championship. If players, individually or as a team, show more than enough ability to challenge for a league title, and then don't even get to the final of the play-offs, then IMO people have every right to question what the priorities of the players are. Or are you saying we were just unlucky virtually every time we played Dumbarton, Falkirk,etc?

bingo70
10-10-2016, 07:24 AM
What specific senior players do people think were hiding on Saturday?

Mcgeough was a shadow of the player he can be and Shinnie was dreadful, I don't think I'd say he was hiding though?

Anybody else?

High-On-Hibs
10-10-2016, 08:52 AM
The issue is that different players are motivated in different ways. Some players need a good kick up the a**e, while others just need pulled to the side and spoken to quietly.

Managers need to identify what works best for each individual. But I feel that we've gone through far too many managers with a 1 size fits all approach. If you do that, then there's always going to be a revolt by those who don't respond well to the 1 dimensional regime.

Lennon needs to identify what works best for each individual player, rather than losing the head with all of them, all of the time. Because that's not what every player needs to get the best out of them.

Alex Trager
10-10-2016, 08:57 AM
I know what you're saying, but I honestly don't think we can blame the stadium. Just think back to recent wins over Hearts or The Rangers. There's a terrific atmosphere when there's a product on the pitch worth getting excited about and with the crowds we're getting at present there's the potential for plenty of noise if the the football on the park wasn't so dull. I know the big games tend to generate their own atmosphere but if we were witnessing a Hibs team which looked like it was going to blow teams off the park in this league rather than tip tapping around uncertainly then we'd hear more than enough backing from the stands.

I agree, It is difficult to get up for games against Shan teams, so it's hardly surprising that the ground is not rocking against Ayr etc

Borderhibbie76
10-10-2016, 09:52 AM
Last season folk were slating Stubs for not having a go at the players because he was always defending them, if the players want praise from their manager then start ****in winning games.
Spot on BH 100% they are well paid professionals underperforming in a sh## league - if they can't handle a bit of criticism from their manager ...then diddums

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

TrinityHibby
10-10-2016, 10:11 PM
What specific senior players do people think were hiding on Saturday?

Mcgeough was a shadow of the player he can be and Shinnie was dreadful, I don't think I'd say he was hiding though?

Anybody else?
Forster looked like he had never seen a football before and his 'hoof balls' would not have looked out of place at Tynecastle. Hanlon needs to return at CH and like it or not Stevenson at LB. Midfield is a real dilemma as McGeoch, McGinn and Fyvie all playing well below their best. Shinnie, Harris and Marciano also failing to impress. :confused::flag:

mca
10-10-2016, 10:14 PM
Is Neils... Career not on the on the Line Here..

If He Fails.. Who Else Will Want him !!! Sky Sports !!! Doubt It

jacomo
10-10-2016, 10:28 PM
There were some who pooh poohed the fact that Lennon's pre season media commitments would have an effect on his understanding of our needs and we would suffer from his lack of attention at a critical time.

I think we have, and am now starting to consider whether Lennon really treats THIS job as a 'make or break' indication of his managerial ability, or whether he basically views it as his footballing equivalent of a 'gap year'...whereas it would be nice if we won promotion, but if things don't go as hoped, it can be dismissed as, , 'hey ho..not really a full on job'....

I agree that his constant comments re Celtic are not helpful to the perception that we are maybe not uppermost in his thoughts sometimes.

I DO hope my perceptions are wrong, and he supplies what is needed though...

Lennon had a bad experience and Bolton and his managerial reputation is on the line, no question about it.

No reason to doubt his commitment is there? Obviously we've had a rocky month but surely no reason to suggest he's not giving 100%?

Booked4Being-Ugly
11-10-2016, 06:05 AM
Forster looked like he had never seen a football before and his 'hoof balls' would not have looked out of place at Tynecastle. Hanlon needs to return at CH and like it or not Stevenson at LB. Midfield is a real dilemma as McGeoch, McGinn and Fyvie all playing well below their best. Shinnie, Harris and Marciano also failing to impress. :confused::flag:A bit of perspective is required - Fyvie has been the exception to our recent poor form and Harris got MoM against St Mirren.

J-C
11-10-2016, 08:11 AM
I was going to say that our dip in form came since Holt has been out of the team but we got humped 1-3 by QOS at home in the League cup when he played and also in the loss to Ayr. Looking at our results, it's quite baffling to see where anything has actually happened to effect these games. Shinnie's 1st game we won, the two sendings off didn't help but I'd say Lennon got the subs all wrong against Ayr that day, the 1st win against Falkirk he played Martin in midfield and the laddie hasn't been seen since.

I think my biggest question would be why has Lennon fielded a different team in every game and why play 3 games in a row with a winning 3 at the back, the suddenly change to a back 4?

I can understand why the players may be confused as they as getting shunted around from one formation to another and the team hhas yet to settle as it's forever changing.

NAE NOOKIE
11-10-2016, 11:06 AM
What do you mean overcoming everything they did? In two seasons we've blatantly failed to get promoted back into the top league, that's worse than any other Hibs team I can remember. No, they're not losers and we will all remember the Scottish Cup win, but the very fact that they do have plenty of ability makes you question the attitude of the team if they can't even finish 2nd in the Championship. If players, individually or as a team, show more than enough ability to challenge for a league title, and then don't even get to the final of the play-offs, then IMO people have every right to question what the priorities of the players are. Or are you saying we were just unlucky virtually every time we played Dumbarton, Falkirk,etc?

There are a number of factors which have contributed to our failure to get promoted over the last two seasons ... but I have seen every Hibs home game since we were relegated and I defy anybody to point to one where the players showed a poor attitude, even in the game where we lost 3 - 0 to Morton the players tried and tried to change the game, only to be hit by 3 sucker punches, they lost because of mistakes and one poor effort by the keeper, but not because they didn't try.

We have a number of problems to overcome if we are to win the league this season, but I just cant agree given what I have watched for two years that 'attitude' is one of them ..... If there has been a change to that then the one factor that has changed since the season started is the manager.
As far as he goes having watched Lennon as a player and a manager I would find it difficult to believe that he is anything other than determined to make a success of any job he takes on .... The only thing that does worry me about him on the man management front is that he seems quick to turn on the players if things don't go the way he wants them to. The one thing Stubbs got right above all else was to promote a 'we are all in this together' feeling between the coaching staff and the players, if Neil Lennon throws that baby out with the bathwater by castigating the players all the time, then yes I can see the players reacting to it, and not in a good way.

ekhibee
11-10-2016, 03:26 PM
There are a number of factors which have contributed to our failure to get promoted over the last two seasons ... but I have seen every Hibs home game since we were relegated and I defy anybody to point to one where the players showed a poor attitude, even in the game where we lost 3 - 0 to Morton the players tried and tried to change the game, only to be hit by 3 sucker punches, they lost because of mistakes and one poor effort by the keeper, but not because they didn't try.

We have a number of problems to overcome if we are to win the league this season, but I just cant agree given what I have watched for two years that 'attitude' is one of them ..... If there has been a change to that then the one factor that has changed since the season started is the manager.
As far as he goes having watched Lennon as a player and a manager I would find it difficult to believe that he is anything other than determined to make a success of any job he takes on .... The only thing that does worry me about him on the man management front is that he seems quick to turn on the players if things don't go the way he wants them to. The one thing Stubbs got right above all else was to promote a 'we are all in this together' feeling between the coaching staff and the players, if Neil Lennon throws that baby out with the bathwater by castigating the players all the time, then yes I can see the players reacting to it, and not in a good way.
Well I agree with a lot of what you say, but to be fair I wasn't just talking about home games. My point, which maybe I didn't make clearly, was that over the last couple of seasons we had a good team in terms of ability, a much better team on paper than most teams in the Championship. We seemed to be able to beat premiership teams virtually whenever we played them, but dropped far too many points against teams in our own league, teams that we should have been beating. I agree totally with what you say about what Stubbs was promoting, but for me personally, I find it difficult to agree with the excuses a lot of people made on here about why we dropped so many points, particularly last season. If we can beat Aberdeen, Hearts, St Johnstone etc we really shouldn't be struggling to beat, for example, Dumbarton, and that's no disrespect to Dumbarton at all. They did their job, we didn't do ours. The excuse that the other team puts 10 men behind the ball and it's difficult to break down only applies when you're talking about playing that team for the 1st time, not when you're still not able to get results against them later in the season, so it comes down to either bad luck every time we dropped points against these teams, Stubbs consistently not knowing how to break these teams down, or the players not doing what they're supposed to do.

I appreciate that some of that bears no relation to what you were saying, because I do actually agree with a lot of what you say, it's just this season, under Lennon, is starting to have an all too familar look to it. We've been here before. But it's early days yet, there's still a long, long way to go.

Speedway
15-10-2016, 10:33 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3839070/Neil-Lennon-allows-misfiring-Hibernian-players-let-hair-deciding-against-tough-approach.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Interesting follow up

eastcoasthibby
15-10-2016, 12:26 PM
what have we got left of the old guard that got us relegated ?? 3-4 of them max.

I wonder if some of them get this perception that Hibs are a big club in name and support but haven't delivered much on that for years, but do they see it that they have made it and don't need to perform to keep their jobs ?

Yes all of these players could do a decent job in any premier team, but for whatever their mindset is poor and they are not working hard enough to make things happen.
Yes Lennon may well shoulder some of the blame for his team selection, shape and subs, but that doesn't excuse players not trying and if being asked to play in a slightly different position from what they prefer, but jeez they should just get the Fec$ on with it they get paid enough and only work 3 hours a day for it "!!

A bit of an aside I actually think our squad is massively imbalanced we are overloaded by central midfielders none except Shinnie are overly attack minded, and our only natural winger is terrified of anything physical so doesn't want on the ball if there is a risk he might get tackled, the only other one with real pace wants to be a centre forward which he will never be .. our defenders are too prone to switching off at the wrong times and a keeper that is unconvincing at this time.. so we are in my mind nowhere near to be a finished article and our performances are a bit of Lennons creating but he cannot make them work and fight on the park that's their livelihood !!