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hfcnic
03-10-2016, 07:34 AM
Apart from the obvious and score more goals what do we need to do to change this around?

Something needs to happen we cannot go from winning a few weeks in a row to draws and losing. What is the one chance you think we need?

I think benching Cummings for a bit might help, others need to realise its not all down to him to score. Keatings would be a perfect replacement to start each week. I know taking the top scorer off seems daft but we need to try something. Maybe a major shake up in the midfield would be helpful right about now.

JDHibs
03-10-2016, 07:46 AM
Formation and tempo.

The diamond doesnt work in this division, Stubbs proved that.

Get back to basics, 4-4-2 with wingers.

Marciano
Gray McGregor Hanlon Crane
Boyle McGinn McGeough Harris/Shinnie
Holt Keatings

Crane will make overlapping runs as will Gray. We dont have any pace other than Boyle, but Shinnie brings a bit of skill and can beat a man. We dont need defensive players in this league in the midfield, MeGeough would hang back and dictate which would free up McGinn to get forward and support. Cummings has been vcrap the last 3 games other than his goal against Ayr and doesnt offer enough when we are struggling. Keatings played well on Sat and took his chance well.

Hate the diamond with a passion. There is a reason no one else in the world uses it successfully.

Waxy
03-10-2016, 08:03 AM
Winning teams get almost everyone chipping in with goals. We need to go on the rampage.

Smartie
03-10-2016, 08:09 AM
Change of formation so we can get wingers in the team.

Midfielders breaking their necks to get in the box instead of being content that their work is done 30+ yards from goal.

If we're going to go for zonal defending at corner kicks, do it right instead of flogging a goal every other game with it.

Going hell for leather for a second goal when we are 1-0 up to give us a cushion.

Done.

Bostonhibby
03-10-2016, 08:41 AM
Change of formation so we can get wingers in the team.

Midfielders breaking their necks to get in the box instead of being content that their work is done 30+ yards from goal.

If we're going to go for zonal defending at corner kicks, do it right instead of flogging a goal every other game with it.

Going hell for leather for a second goal when we are 1-0 up to give us a cushion.

Done.

:agree: plus, as the poster above says, Stubbs established the diamond doesn't work in this division. Wingers, wingers please!!!!! nae point in Holt and Graham being here if we are not getting more and better balls in. Ironically Keatings supplied a few yesterday but no one there to get on the end of them.

We have failed to kill teams off when we are on top at home for the last three seasons.

number9dream
03-10-2016, 09:18 AM
Problem is the wingers we have are not very good...
Lennon will be reluctant to put in Boyle or Harris ahead of the other guys but then we are left with 4 out of our 5 central midfielders crowbarred into the team...
The manager is yet to settle on his best XI since so many players have been inconsistent.
How about a bold 3-4-3 at home to St Mirren in the daft cup?
Cummings & Keatings either side of Holt or Graham, one going wide, the other tucking in when play is on opposite flank.
If that's not the answer then how about just working harder to get up the pitch quicker? If teams sit back then you have to batter them into submission, run them ragged and the openings will come.

hfcnic
03-10-2016, 09:21 AM
Problem is the wingers we have are not very good...
Lennon will be reluctant to put in Boyle or Harris ahead of the other guys but then we are left with 4 out of our 5 central midfielders crowbarred into the team...
The manager is yet to settle on his best XI since so many players have been inconsistent.
How about a bold 3-4-3 at home to St Mirren in the daft cup?
Cummings & Keatings either side of Holt or Graham, one going wide, the other tucking in when play is on opposite flank.
If that's not the answer then how about just working harder to get up the pitch quicker? If teams sit back then you have to batter them into submission, run them ragged and the openings will come.

I think that would be worth a shot

Since90+2
03-10-2016, 09:27 AM
Pace and width. The same thing we have needed for the past 3 years atleast.

If the wingers at the club are not deemed good enough then its Lennon's responsbility to bring in the correct players.

ancient hibee
03-10-2016, 09:31 AM
As long as we have a system of playing 30 yard passes through the middle to strikers with their back to goal instead of constantly doing what Shinnie did yesterday for the goal with a quick pass in the box we will find scoring hard.

J-C
03-10-2016, 09:35 AM
It doesn't always have to be wingers needed, play 4-3-3.

The 3 front men should all be able to play wide or through the middle and swap positions all the time so defenders are kept on their toes. 1 deep playmaking midfielder and the other 2 being given the freedom to roam and create, defenders to defend and fullbacks to support rather than being the main outlet for width.

My team would look like this

Marciano

Gray
McGregor
Hanlon
Stevenson

McGeouch/Shinnie
Fyvie/McGeouch
McGinn/Fyvie

Boyle/Keatings
Cummings/Holt
Keatings/Cummings

High tempo is a must to get at teams like Dundee U etc, both Hearts and Rangers played a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with wingers and pace to success.

Hermit Crab
03-10-2016, 12:10 PM
Get rid of the zonal marking pish and play with pace and go for broke every game. Teams should not be able to handle us with the quality we've got, we make it too easy for the opposition.

Jones28
03-10-2016, 12:14 PM
Every game should be played as if it were a cup final. Go for broke and rattle in a few goals.

The formation needs changed desperately. Mcginn and Cummings need a spell on the bench.

Oh, and the zonal marking is chronic.

Hermit Crab
03-10-2016, 12:20 PM
Every game should be played as if it were a cup final. Go for broke and rattle in a few goals.

The formation needs changed desperately. Mcginn and Cummings need a spell on the bench.

Oh, and the zonal marking is chronic.


442, stretch teams and get balls into the box.

matty_f
03-10-2016, 12:28 PM
Nothing wrong with the diamond, we have a lot of the ball and we give up relatively few attacks against.

We need more desire to get into the box when we have the ball - look at Ayr's second goal against us as an example of what I mean, boy broke down the right, their forward made a near post run and took our defence with him, and they had another player bursting a guy to get into the box to score.

Contrast that with Sunday, Hanlon burst down the left, Cummings makes a run to the near post and takes their defence with him, Hanlon skelps a cross over and there is the sum total of nobody there to capitalise. That wasn't the only time either, nobody makes runs into the box, sometimes not even our strikers. No wonder we don't score goals.

We also need to concentrate when we defend. The amount of ridiculously easy goals we concede is criminal. Nothing to do with zonal marking, it's basic players-not-doing-their-jobs that costs us.

Finally, it would be good if the manager made changes in the game to try and win it. McKinnon earned United a point yesterday with his changes. Lennon did nothing other than an enforced change until he was trying to chase it in the last 10 minutes or so. If Lennon had made changes to either counter United's changes, or to force the issue ourselves, we may well have had a different outcome. Instead he waited for the inevitable sucker punch before doing anything. Same can be said for the Ayr game, where a failure to adequately cover Bartley's loss cost us three points.

BlackSheep
03-10-2016, 12:28 PM
It doesn't always have to be wingers needed, play 4-3-3.

The 3 front men should all be able to play wide or through the middle and swap positions all the time so defenders are kept on their toes. 1 deep playmaking midfielder and the other 2 being given the freedom to roam and create, defenders to defend and fullbacks to support rather than being the main outlet for width.

My team would look like this

Marciano

Gray
McGregor
Hanlon
Stevenson

McGeouch/Shinnie
Fyvie/McGeouch
McGinn/Fyvie

Boyle/Keatings
Cummings/Holt
Keatings/Cummings

High tempo is a must to get at teams like Dundee U etc, both Hearts and Rangers played a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with wingers and pace to success.

This has been my first choice team for weeks... Boyle and Keatings will supply the pace and take players away from Cummings in the middle.

Cummings is a poacher so needs more space to get his feet sorted and get a shot away.

The 3 in midfield would do the job they have been doing all season, disrupting the play and supplying balls forward for the attackers and hopefully chipping in themselves.

The full backs can still bomb forward but would potentially have 3 in the box to hit instead of 2/1 that we currently have... one of the midfielders can then drop back to cover when one or both of the full backs bomb forward... 3 defensive players should suffice against most in this league. When these plays present themselves.

It's a flexible system that should cover both attacking play and defensive play when needed...

I think a system like this is only around the corner from Lennon, the fact he has given Keatings a start shows he is thinking more about pace than holding the ball up now... I just hope he perseveres with it.

Onion
03-10-2016, 01:23 PM
Holt gave us a much needed physical presence up front, which Champ defenders struggle to handle. We need to get him back in now and leave him there. Cummings and Keatings was a mistake that Lennon won't make again.

The_Horde
03-10-2016, 01:41 PM
Back at it. I'd like to see us do this

Ofir

Gray McGregor Hanlon Stevenson

Fyvie Mcgeouch

Keatings McGinn Shinnie

Holt

BlackSheep
03-10-2016, 01:43 PM
Holt gave us a much needed physical presence up front, which Champ defenders struggle to handle. We need to get him back in now and leave him there. Cummings and Keatings was a mistake that Lennon won't make again.

I think the Keatings/Cummings combo can work in a 3... whether it's Boyle for pace or Holt for strength.

JC hasn't had the best games for the past few weeks and his frustration is apparent on the pitch... when he gets like that he plays even worse.

I think Keatings is a better all round striker than JC at the moment, but given time JC will add to his game and get better, but I think Keatings deserves a run in the team... up top and not as a supporting forward/attacking midfielder.

BlackSheep
03-10-2016, 01:46 PM
I also hear lots of calls for wingers... which I have always been a am of... but the most important parts of a wingers game are pace and delivery... none of current crop of MFs have both of these...

Boyle on the right and Keatings in the left and now you are talking.

greenlex
03-10-2016, 01:58 PM
Start scoring more and stop losing avoidable ones. It's as simple as that. Every player we have would walk into every championship team and most would walk into a premiership one. Belief and composure.

The_Horde
03-10-2016, 02:02 PM
I also hear lots of calls for wingers... which I have always been a am of... but the most important parts of a wingers game are pace and delivery... none of current crop of MFs have both of these...

Boyle on the right and Keatings in the left and now you are talking.

Keatings as a wide but slightly central attacking midfielder gives us the option of both his delivery and long range shooting ability.

jacomo
03-10-2016, 02:34 PM
It doesn't always have to be wingers needed, play 4-3-3.

The 3 front men should all be able to play wide or through the middle and swap positions all the time so defenders are kept on their toes. 1 deep playmaking midfielder and the other 2 being given the freedom to roam and create, defenders to defend and fullbacks to support rather than being the main outlet for width.

My team would look like this

Marciano

Gray
McGregor
Hanlon
Stevenson

McGeouch/Shinnie
Fyvie/McGeouch
McGinn/Fyvie

Boyle/Keatings
Cummings/Holt
Keatings/Cummings

High tempo is a must to get at teams like Dundee U etc, both Hearts and Rangers played a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with wingers and pace to success.

This might work if at least one midfielder was told to get up behind the central striker, more like a no.10. Shinnie could do that, no?

J-C
03-10-2016, 03:19 PM
This might work if at least one midfielder was told to get up behind the central striker, more like a no.10. Shinnie could do that, no?

Exactly and why his name is there but also feel McGeouch can do the same, we need our midfielders to get forward more.

southern hibby
03-10-2016, 04:01 PM
Tin hat firmly on here....

Let's start with the basics, players talking to one another. Number of times we loose the ball because there's a player on our player with the ball is unreal. First touch of certain players need worked apon.
Basic passing ability is sometimes shocking we loose the ball far to easily and also when we pass the ball out wide it always seems to go behind our players which slows us down even more.
Desire to win second balls is basically a joke.
Speed is non existent.
Formation in certain games is bewildering.
Zonal marking ( enough said).
Now before anyone asks me how we improve on this I'm not a coach with badges but I notice these things week in week out and since the season we went down nothing has been different except Zonial marking.
And one other thing. The fans have been outstanding our support this season amazing and surely this should make players at least try and win the second ball.
GGTTH

hibbydog
03-10-2016, 05:15 PM
Tin hat firmly on here....

Let's start with the basics, players talking to one another. Number of times we loose the ball because there's a player on our player with the ball is unreal. First touch of certain players need worked apon.
Basic passing ability is sometimes shocking we loose the ball far to easily and also when we pass the ball out wide it always seems to go behind our players which slows us down even more.
Desire to win second balls is basically a joke.
Speed is non existent.
Formation in certain games is bewildering.
Zonal marking ( enough said).
Now before anyone asks me how we improve on this I'm not a coach with badges but I notice these things week in week out and since the season we went down nothing has been different except Zonial marking.
And one other thing. The fans have been outstanding our support this season amazing and surely this should make players at least try and win the second ball.
GGTTH

Completely agree with the bit in bold. Even Stevie Wonder could see that's our problem. We have players what can run fast but we're too ponderous when we have the ball in the final third. It gives the opposition plenty time to get men back and into shape, then we're back scratching our heads and complaining about teams with defensive tactics. We should be moving the ball quickly and pulling their players out of position. Mair running off the ball too.

I think we're great right up until the final third, which is basically nae use.

Woof Woof

ancient hibee
03-10-2016, 05:21 PM
One of the reasons we look so slow is a failure to get the ball behind a retreating defence making them turn which slows them and we look quicker.We did it twice yesterday and Keatings scored and Hanlon should have.I mean this sort of stuff is really basic-make the ball do the work.

Waxy
03-10-2016, 05:29 PM
Teams defend in numbers against us and we usually have the lions share of possesion so most of the time we cant use speed as a weapon.

ancient hibee
03-10-2016, 05:33 PM
Teams defend in numbers against us and we usually have the lions share of possesion so most of the time we cant use speed as a weapon.

In that case perhaps we should be speedier between the ears.

Eyrie
03-10-2016, 07:13 PM
It doesn't always have to be wingers needed, play 4-3-3.

The 3 front men should all be able to play wide or through the middle and swap positions all the time so defenders are kept on their toes. 1 deep playmaking midfielder and the other 2 being given the freedom to roam and create, defenders to defend and fullbacks to support rather than being the main outlet for width.

My team would look like this

Marciano

Gray
McGregor
Hanlon
Stevenson

McGeouch/Shinnie
Fyvie/McGeouch
McGinn/Fyvie

Boyle/Keatings
Cummings/Holt
Keatings/Cummings

High tempo is a must to get at teams like Dundee U etc, both Hearts and Rangers played a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 with wingers and pace to success.
I've read this twice and can't find a single thing wrong with it.

overdrive
03-10-2016, 08:40 PM
Urgency. Pace would be nice but even without pacey players we could be showing way more urgency when the midfield get the ball. Instead we take it nice and leisurely looking round for 30 seconds for a world cup pass. Run with the bloody ball.

RedHibby
03-10-2016, 08:41 PM
If we are still struggling come January I think he should recall Insall. I know he doesn't have the experience but his movement is a lot better than anything we have in the team at the moment. I think he would cause a lot of Championship defences problems.

BoomtownHibees
03-10-2016, 08:48 PM
Urgency. Pace would be nice but even without pacey players we could be showing way more urgency when the midfield get the ball. Instead we take it nice and leisurely looking round for 30 seconds for a world cup pass. Run with the bloody ball.

That happens all over the park and it pisses me off. Other teams players holding on to the ball at our free kicks etc, when the ball goes out for a throw in. There's no urgency to get the game moving again. Even when other teams are taking an age to take free kicks or goal kicks, we should have somebody on at the ref right from the start of the game to get the game moving again.

The ball went out yesterday and somebody from their bench picked the ball up and held on to it. Boyle went over and just waited til the guy dropped the ball. Go in and get the ball from him!!! Get it moving a lot quicker.

That doesn't require "pace", it requires desire to go and win the game.

jgl07
03-10-2016, 09:23 PM
I would settle for some of the bedwetters to keep away from their keyboards for a while.

Too much to ask I suppose.

Hibernia&Alba
03-10-2016, 09:36 PM
I agree with dumping zonal marking: never been a fan. In addition, I think it's the same old story of being more ruthless whilst dominating possession. I'm confident it will click and we'll be totally fine. I don't think we have a glaring problem that is acute; we aren't far off what's needed.

Kavinho
04-10-2016, 06:47 AM
We need patience and to stop trying to do the managers job.

& we need to keep the faith

Highland_Hibee
04-10-2016, 08:04 AM
I would settle for some of the bedwetters to keep away from their keyboards for a while.

Too much to ask I suppose.

Already pissed the bed they might as well get up I suppose.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sesoim
04-10-2016, 11:47 AM
Formation and tempo.

The diamond doesnt work in this division, Stubbs proved that.

Get back to basics, 4-4-2 with wingers.

Marciano
Gray McGregor Hanlon Crane
Boyle McGinn McGeough Harris/Shinnie
Holt Keatings

Crane will make overlapping runs as will Gray. We dont have any pace other than Boyle, but Shinnie brings a bit of skill and can beat a man. We dont need defensive players in this league in the midfield, MeGeough would hang back and dictate which would free up McGinn to get forward and support. Cummings has been vcrap the last 3 games other than his goal against Ayr and doesnt offer enough when we are struggling. Keatings played well on Sat and took his chance well.

Hate the diamond with a passion. There is a reason no one else in the world uses it successfully.

Isn't Crane that player than kept passing backwards against that Highland League team? I agree with you about the diamond, but McGeough just doesn't do enough - he can barely move.

We should have one tackler and three attacking midfielders that score ten goals each. Shinnie might in time, but McGinn's record is very poor for an attacking midfielder. It is easier to say than do, but we desperately needed to sign a Latapy type for central midfeld - a player than can run, create and score goals regularly at this level.

sesoim
04-10-2016, 11:54 AM
I would settle for some of the bedwetters to keep away from their keyboards for a while.

Too much to ask I suppose.


:rolleyes: Yeah, being (rightly) critical of a Hibs team that is still struggling (and still doing the same things wrong) in the Scottish Second tier after more than two year is "bedwetting". If you are going to slag off people that you disagree with, at least come up with a more suitable term.

cabbageandribs1875
04-10-2016, 11:58 AM
:rolleyes: Yeah, being (rightly) critical of a Hibs team that is still struggling (and still doing the same things wrong) in the Scottish Second tier after more than two year is "bedwetting". If you are going to slag off people that you disagree with, at least come up with a more suitable term.


any poster using that derogatory term should be automatically banned...sine die :agree:

JimBHibees
04-10-2016, 12:00 PM
any poster using the term 'bedwetter' should be automatically banned...sine die :agree:

You just did. :greengrin

J-C
04-10-2016, 12:46 PM
Isn't Crane that player than kept passing backwards against that Highland League team? I agree with you about the diamond, but McGeough just doesn't do enough - he can barely move.

We should have one tackler and three attacking midfielders that score ten goals each. Shinnie might in time, but McGinn's record is very poor for an attacking midfielder. It is easier to say than do, but we desperately needed to sign a Latapy type for central midfeld - a player than can run, create and score goals regularly at this level.


Is he an attacking midfielder, I see him more of a box2box/ball winning midfielder.

RedHibby
04-10-2016, 01:06 PM
We need patience and to stop trying to do the managers job.

& we need to keep the faith

Keeping the faith has not helped us in the last three seasons.

cabbageandribs1875
04-10-2016, 01:41 PM
You just did. :greengrin


edited :)

wookie70
04-10-2016, 01:47 PM
Our lack of urgency was summed on nicely against the Arabs. They had a man injured off the pitch next to our goal. Cue our defenders strolling around and taking an easy touch before a wee meander to see if a sideways pass was on. Meanwhile Lennon was going mental trying to get them moving and take advantage of the situation.

We are playing differently to how we were earlier in the season. I think we are a bit deeper and the pressing game which was very evident has pretty much disappeared. Jason and Holt were far busier when we never had possession than our strikers have been lately. It looks to me that the players have lost their edge. Not sure a formation change would be as beneficial as some say but it can't do any harm. The other thing we desperately need to address is midfielders getting into the box. Even Hanlon showed that it is pretty easy to get a sight at goal if you take a chance.

JDHibs
04-10-2016, 01:55 PM
Isn't Crane that player than kept passing backwards against that Highland League team? I agree with you about the diamond, but McGeough just doesn't do enough - he can barely move.

We should have one tackler and three attacking midfielders that score ten goals each. Shinnie might in time, but McGinn's record is very poor for an attacking midfielder. It is easier to say than do, but we desperately needed to sign a Latapy type for central midfeld - a player than can run, create and score goals regularly at this level.

He cant make over lapping runs if theres no one to over lap, can he? We dont have anyone who stays wide left.

Over midfield that started on Sunday have a grand total of 40 goals in 464 apps, roughly. 25 of them are from Shinnie.

For comparison, Halliday has 11 in 58 from a defensive type position in a midfield 3.

Not. Good. Enough.

JimBHibees
04-10-2016, 02:04 PM
edited :)

:greengrin

offshorehibby
04-10-2016, 02:20 PM
There was one instance that summed it up for me on Sunday. Early into second half Cummings had the ball just in front of the dugouts, defence and midfield were packed into our 18 yard line, he had to go round and round in circles for what seemed like ages,until our midfield decided to meander up and help, No urgency.

Kavinho
04-10-2016, 05:19 PM
Keeping the faith has not helped us in the last three seasons.

Berating players mid game doesn't either. Waves of negativity from the stands won't help

8 games in, 1 point off top with a manager aware of the issues and addressing them.

Plenty of time.

In answer to the OP, "we" need to stop being overly critical during games, support the players, support the manager, and let him get on with it.

That is what we actually have within our gift to address

emerald green
04-10-2016, 06:16 PM
Hibs players need to learn to do the basics better. Two things first of all - 1) passing, and 2) movement off the ball needs to improve dramatically.

The ball needs to be passed on the ground as much as possible, at the correct pace and accurately, to a team mate running onto the ball. Not behind him as seems to happen far too often. This needs players moving into space off the ball to give their team mates an out ball.

The game needs to be played at a higher tempo than we see week in week out at ER in front of teams who "park the bus".

The team needs a defensive midfielder with tactical nous, positional intelligence, and simple distribution ability. Who can fill this role?

Play with width against "park the bus", and when given the opportunity players need to run into the box at pace with the ball and force defenders into making tackles in the box. That's how some teams (diving aside) get more penalties than others.

Zonal marking is not working so ditch it. No team can afford to concede goals as easily as Hibs have against Ayr United and DU.

This all seems to be stating the obvious, but I wonder if Hibs have got enough players with the quality, ability, (and fitness levels?) required to play the game like this, at pace. I'm not expecting them to be a Barcelona, but I do want them to be good enough to win the second tier of Scottish football.

I would also question why so few players are making it through from our development squad into the first team. Why is that not happening? Some of the signings Hibs have made over several past seasons now have been simply awful. These things need to change for certain.