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View Full Version : Is there better to come or are we simply not very good?



G B Young
02-10-2016, 02:29 PM
I wasn't there today so not best qualified to comment on the performance, but the general consensus both on here and from folk I know who were at the game was that it was pretty turgid stuff from two very average sides.

Based on the games I have been at this season I've seen very little to make me think we look like champions in waiting. In fact, as well as being frustrating to watch I actually find us BORING.

It seemed to me that Lennon's appointment showed Hibs mean business. He's made a big play of toughening us up not just physically but mentally. So where's the evidence of that? Two points out of nine, and just one from six at home sure ain't indicative of a side which aspires to boss this league.

Am I being impatient? Is Lennon still tinkering with his most effective line-up? Are we better than what we're showing so far and will we come good when it really matters? Or are we simply not as good as some seem to think?

Whatever the answers, one thing is for certain. We're a long way short of the form we need to get out of this league. Personally I feel we should be looking for more from Lennon and that Leann Dempster deserves more from her manager having made what looked on paper to be an imaginative and exciting appointment.

green day
02-10-2016, 02:35 PM
Having considered your question, I think the answer is - no, yes, no, yes.

Smartie
02-10-2016, 02:37 PM
I think it looks like we need to hand on in there and scrape what we can until January. We really need to change the way we play and strengthen this squad.

There will be no "skooshing" this league.

We're very pedestrian and there is only so much that Lennon will be able to do with the players he has to inject a bit of urgency.

We have the same players playing the same way making the same mistakes and picking up the same disappointing results.

I suspect Neil Lennon has slightly underestimated what he has on his hands here and I'm not convinced anyone at Easter Road knows what it takes to get us out of this league.

bingo70
02-10-2016, 02:41 PM
I think we're just not that good to be honest.

These teams we're coming up against are dreadful, absolute garbage but we struggle to score goals against them.

I don't think we will see much change in January either as we'll get the usual stories about it being a difficult time to get players etc....

Pretty Boy
02-10-2016, 02:43 PM
Dundee Utd, with the exception of their number 10, were utterly woeful.

We huffed and puffed against them for 90 minutes and never really looked like winning comfortably.

I'm not sure if we are not very good in general but, with a couple of exception, our performances this league season could certainly be described as such.

Steve20
02-10-2016, 02:47 PM
We're not that good. We are terrible in the final third. We could still win the league but it's going to be tight between us, QOTS, Utd and Falkirk. We're no better or no worse than any of them.

hibby6270
02-10-2016, 02:51 PM
We can definitely hope there's better to come but based on today's and the last home game against Ayr, I'm sadly coming to the conclusion we're not as good as we think we are.

1. Again today we lacked the clinical cutting edge of putting chances away. Same as the last 2 seasons and we know what that led to. I thought Lennon's tactic today of having the 2 fast tricky forwards up against their man mountain defence might have have turned out to be a good one but apart from few flashes of good play by Keatings, he was let down by Cummings by not matching his zest and desire to get the ball and do something positive with the ball.

2. To a greater extent, what did let us down today was again the defence. Crane should have been in at left back, leaving Hanlon and McGregor in the middle. Not that Forster did anything wrong but Hanlon is just not a natural left back.

3 finally, and the biggest tactic crime Lennon persists with - ZONAL MARKING - at corners and free kicks. If you're reading this Neil - "gonnae no dae that, just gonnae no!!" It's cost us 2 simple goals in those last 2 home matches that have ultimately taken us from comfortable winning position and probably 6 points, to a situation where we have won only 1 out of 6 points.

Does anyone disagree with the above points?

SRHibs
02-10-2016, 02:54 PM
I feel like I was at a different game. I thought the game was of a decent standard (bearing in mind it's the Scottish championship). Both teams passed the ball well at times and crafted some good chances. Granted it wasn't a fantastic result but it wasn't a disaster by any means.

hibsbollah
02-10-2016, 02:56 PM
We can definitely hope there's better to come but based on today's and the last home game against Ayr, I'm sadly coming to the conclusion we're not as good as we think we are.

1. Again today we lacked the clinical cutting edge of putting chances away. Same as the last 2 seasons and we know what that led to. I thought Lennon's tactic today of having the 2 fast tricky forwards up against their man mountain defence might have have turned out to be a good one but apart from few flashes of good play by Keatings, he was let down by Cummings by not matching his zest and desire to get the ball and do something positive with the ball.

2. To a greater extent, what did let us down today was again the defence. Crane should have been in at left back, leaving Hanlon and McGregor in the middle. Not that Forster did anything wrong but Hanlon is just not a natural left back.

3 finally, and the biggest tactic crime Lennon persists with - ZONAL MARKING - at corners and free kicks. If you're reading this Neil - "gonnae no dae that, just gonnae no!!" It's cost us 2 simple goals in those last 2 home matches that have ultimately taken us from comfortable winning position and probably 6 points, to a situation where we have won only 1 out of 6 points.

Does anyone disagree with the above points?

Id take issue with #2, I thought the defence was mostly solid first half, losing Gray was a blow, but Hanlon did fine on the left and the goal was just a perfect header from distance, how many saves did Rocky have to make?

Our problem is a lack of creativity in the final third.

Smartie
02-10-2016, 02:59 PM
We can definitely hope there's better to come but based on today's and the last home game against Ayr, I'm sadly coming to the conclusion we're not as good as we think we are.

1. Again today we lacked the clinical cutting edge of putting chances away. Same as the last 2 seasons and we know what that led to. I thought Lennon's tactic today of having the 2 fast tricky forwards up against their man mountain defence might have have turned out to be a good one but apart from few flashes of good play by Keatings, he was let down by Cummings by not matching his zest and desire to get the ball and do something positive with the ball.

2. To a greater extent, what did let us down today was again the defence. Crane should have been in at left back, leaving Hanlon and McGregor in the middle. Not that Forster did anything wrong but Hanlon is just not a natural left back.

3 finally, and the biggest tactic crime Lennon persists with - ZONAL MARKING - at corners and free kicks. If you're reading this Neil - "gonnae no dae that, just gonnae no!!" It's cost us 2 simple goals in those last 2 home matches that have ultimately taken us from comfortable winning position and probably 6 points, to a situation where we have won only 1 out of 6 points.

Does anyone disagree with the above points?

I agree 100% with 1 and 3.

2 is a bit harsh. We defended fine and dealt with any threat that United had comfortably, other than the zonal marking for the goal. It was interesting to see that Hanlon's distribution was no better than we'd have expected from Stevenson even including the hoofed cross straight into the stand under no pressure.

Number 3 is the most worrying - as you say it's cost is 5 points in 2 games. This isn't a belief that Lennon is going to give up in a hurry so it looks like we're stuck with it.

staunchhibby
02-10-2016, 03:00 PM
Zonal marking is going to cost us dearly unless we abandon it now.

seanoheimhin
02-10-2016, 03:08 PM
We're not that good. We are terrible in the final third. We could still win the league but it's going to be tight between us, QOTS, Utd and Falkirk. We're no better or no worse than any of them.

Think this sums the whole predicament up well. You can break it down into 'heart', 'bottle', 'hunger' etc etc but we just NEVER score enough goals against teams we dominate. This leads to the very simple conclusion we're not good enough to do so.

With so many good cup results last season against Prem teams it was logical to think we were better than our championship rivals. That didn't play out in practice last season and it's proving not to be the case this season.

I'm confused, I'm no expert and I don't know what we can do differently. Sometimes you get a wee bad spell in a season, but this feels more representative of our overall quality. I think we probably will win the league by 5-8 pts in the end, but if so it won't be in style and it will be a nervy ride (as always).

Mon Dieu4
02-10-2016, 03:10 PM
Id take issue with #2, I thought the defence was mostly solid first half, losing Gray was a blow, but Hanlon did fine on the left and the goal was just a perfect header from distance, how many saves did Rocky have to make?

Our problem is a lack of creativity in the final third.

Correct, if you stop our midfield you know what's about to happen, a backwards or sideways pass, we need someone with creativity or pace to try something out of the ordinary, it's all very pedestrian

emerald green
02-10-2016, 03:19 PM
Hibs have some very good individual players in the squad, but as a team they are not as good as some on this forum make out. Certainly not on the evidence of overall performances so far this season.

A chronic lack of width, pace especially, and guile in the team is obvious by now surely to anyone who has the slightest idea about football. Bringing Boyle on with 15 minutes to go and expecting a miracle wont do. Harris is not good enough IMHO. Dan Carmichael was let go.

Every opposition coach has got Hibs well sussed out, and they have done for the past two or three seasons. You don't have to be a tactical genius to know how to play against Hibs. Get everyone behind the ball and watch Hibs make loads of passes in front of you. Waste as much time as you can possibly get away with too.

The only thing different from too many similar displays was Hibs didn't get caught with the very late sucker punch to lose all three points.

Lennon needs to look at how the team is being set up going forward, but his options seem fairly limited.

That was probably the worst Dundee United team I've seen in many a long year. They offered virtually nothing, yet Hibs could not beat them.

Jim44
02-10-2016, 03:19 PM
I think we have become a fairly good Championship side struggling to get out of the Championship as opposed to a poor Premiership side struggling to get out of the Championship.

Eyrie
02-10-2016, 03:26 PM
I think we have become a fairly good Championship side struggling to get out of the Championship as opposed to a poor Premiership side struggling to get out of the Championship.

Brutal, but accurate.

1987kev
02-10-2016, 03:27 PM
Our league form since February hasn't been great.

MWHIBBIES
02-10-2016, 03:30 PM
Dundee Utd, with the exception of their number 10, were utterly woeful.

We huffed and puffed against them for 90 minutes and never really looked like winning comfortably.

I'm not sure if we are not very good in general but, with a couple of exception, our performances this league season could certainly be described as such.Big defender that scored was excellent.

hibby6270
02-10-2016, 03:31 PM
2 is a bit harsh. We defended fine and dealt with any threat that United had comfortably, other than the zonal marking for the goal. It was interesting to see that Hanlon's distribution was no better than we'd have expected from Stevenson even including the hoofed cross straight into the stand under no pressure.



Yeah - point taken. You're summing up is probably closer to the mark. I wasn't having a go at the defence today in general. Let's face it they weren't up against much as it turned out.

Think what I was trying to say was a natural left back would have been a better replacement for Lewis. Hanlon defended well but he ain't got the attacking quality. As a stand in for Lewis he did, as you say, not do any better than Lewis does at times with his crosses and that let us down again today.

Dashing Bob S
02-10-2016, 03:38 PM
We have all the old failings from last season; lack of width and pace, not taking chances and finishing teams off, but even given this, we are still underperforming.

United are poor, Falkirk are weaker than last season, and QOS and Raith not that great.

But we really need to get our act together. Still very early days, but the biggest disappointment so far for me has been Lennon. After a good start the players don't seem to be responding to him, and tactically he has been at least conservative as Stubbs.

He has brought in two target men, which give us another option, but without pacy wide men who can cross a ball, their effectiveness is limited.

Fact is that we are easy to shut down, and don't seem to have an effective Plan B.

With our squad we should indeed by skooshing, but it looks more like it's going to be a turgid struggle where we get to the finishing line more through our opponents limitations, than through any class we're showing.

As I say, I hope, and I expect, that there is more to come from Lennon and Hibs, but right now I'm far from convinced.

neil7908
02-10-2016, 03:46 PM
With the players we have, 8 games into the season I don't see how we can argue there is more to come from this team. Apart from the Morton game we haven't really hammered anyone, it's been narrow results with 1 goal in it. We still have a great chance of winning this league but not with the kind of displays we've been producing the last few weeks.

I think Lennon needs to be brave and two of Mcgeough, Mcginn, Fyvie and Bartley will need to accept a place on the bench.

biotech
02-10-2016, 03:49 PM
Even when we've won games, we were not always been convincing. We don't do the basics (e.g. defend corners) well enough to win this league at a canter.

Going to be long hard winter.

Bishop Hibee
02-10-2016, 04:10 PM
Good question. After some discussion in the pub post-match the consensus is we have good players but the mix is not right. Stubbs couldn't fix it and for the first time today I fear Lennon is falling into the same trap.

Agreement among those I sit with that Harris should be given a run even though he isn't as good as the midfielders who played today. We need to change the shape. We also need midfielders getting into the box. Even if we'd got to the byeline there were only 2 in the box, 3 at the most.

Hibernia&Alba
02-10-2016, 04:14 PM
There's better to come for sure. It's still early days with the new management and things won't simply be transformed overnight. Last season we weren't consistent or ruthless enough in the league, and it will take a bit of time for Lennon to get the squad to adapt to exactly what he wants. It was a poor performance today no question, but we didn't lose the game. We're still searching for the perfect blend in the team, and I'm sure it will come. Hard work on the training ground is something Lennon will ensure.

buktadays
02-10-2016, 04:24 PM
Even when we've won games, we were not always been convincing. We don't do the basics (e.g. defend corners) well enough to win this league at a canter.

Going to be long hard winter.

Agree. Basics like running with the ball, you're either going to open things up or force your opponent into a foul. But we just don't do it.Why we breakdown so much in the final third is beyond me, we just fail to create anything up front.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IberianHibernian
02-10-2016, 04:31 PM
Is there better to come ? Definitely but probably after 2 or 3 signings in January . Hopefully no team will pull too far ahead of us before then .

Stevie Reid
02-10-2016, 04:33 PM
I think there is much better to come, but disappointed that we haven't kicked on from the start we made after the first 5 games.

Still annoyed at the Bartley sending off, but performances in our last two home games have been very flat.

Itsnoteasy
02-10-2016, 04:37 PM
We have the best team of individuals outside the top 3-4 teams in Scottish football. But these are individuals who can't play as a team.

ancient hibee
02-10-2016, 04:43 PM
Is there better to come ? Definitely but probably after 2 or 3 signings in January . Hopefully no team will pull too far ahead of us before then .
In the first game away to Falkirk we were excellent.Quick into tackles,moving the ball about smartly and taking no prisoners,all against the team expected to be our greatest challengers.Since then we haven't reproduced that performance.

IberianHibernian
02-10-2016, 04:47 PM
In the first game away to Falkirk we were excellent.Quick into tackles,moving the ball about smartly and taking no prisoners,all against the team expected to be our greatest challengers.Since then we haven't reproduced that performance.Yes but Falkirk started the season badly ( not just against us ) and we`played poorly in following games against QOS and Dunfermline and haven`t improved since then . So lots of room for improvement .

QMU-1875
02-10-2016, 04:57 PM
We dominated that game possession wise today. The problem is in our midfield. They constantly slow down any attacking play we have by taking an extra touch. It's awful to watch, find myself constantly screaming at them to release the ball or take a shot. If up against better quality opposition that extra touch might make sense but against the dross we are playing against we need to play much faster. Pedestrian football. It was looking like Lennon had this sorted in the first couple of games.

emerald green
02-10-2016, 05:00 PM
Is there better to come ? Definitely but probably after 2 or 3 signings in January . Hopefully no team will pull too far ahead of us before then .

This is 2nd October and you are talking about better to come probably after 2 or 3 signings in January! The January transfer window being well known for being notoriously difficult to bring in any decent quality players.

If any team pulls too far ahead of Hibs before then it will be the play-offs again for Hibs.

blackpoolhibs
02-10-2016, 05:03 PM
I feel we have a terrible conundrum, we have in Jason Cummings a very good goalscorer who is just not very good at football and the other parts of the game that this current team need.

It appears Holts erse is out the windae now, and the rest of them whatever permutation we play couldnt trap a bag of cement and hold the ball up while the midfield either support them or go past and create space for someone else.

We have other problems too more noticeably wide, but our main man who is scoring most of our goals contributes almost nothing else.

I get the feeling even though Cummings has scored all the goals this season, that Lennon is running out of patience with him, he's hooked him quite a lot recently.

In my opinion we dont have any other option but to keep picking him, as we dont really look like scoring from anyone else although Keatings did take his goal well today with what was his only real chance, and he will probably score more than the rest of our forwards.

Throw in our ability to lose ridiculous goals like the one we did today, and while we have better players than all the teams in this league, and will have most of the ball in every game we play, the blend is just not right and has not been right for quite a while.

Spike Mandela
02-10-2016, 05:14 PM
Lennon came in late due to his tv commitments, took too long to assess the squad and his limited signings haven't improved the squad greatly if at all.

We are effectively the same team as last year with the same plusses and minuses. Good enough on our day of a sparkling performance, christ we're Cup champions but also capable of long spells of turgid games where we just can't break teams down.

We could win the league this year with this squad but it is anything but certain. Massive improvement required in coaching and in personnel (imo) if we are to win it with room to spare.

IberianHibernian
02-10-2016, 05:33 PM
People saying we`ve got more or less the same team as last year but present team with Stokes ( not with 12 ! ) might well have won every league game . Cummings has been struggling for most of 2016 ( we started scoring more at the end of last season when Keatings played upfront with Stokes ) and Holt and Graham aren`t suited to our possession game or aren`t good enough .

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 05:37 PM
We dominated that game possession wise today. The problem is in our midfield. They constantly slow down any attacking play we have by taking an extra touch. It's awful to watch, find myself constantly screaming at them to release the ball or take a shot. If up against better quality opposition that extra touch might make sense but against the dross we are playing against we need to play much faster. Pedestrian football. It was looking like Lennon had this sorted in the first couple of games.

That's an understatement. The BBC stats showed us dominating 62% to 38% in the first half and ultimately 54% to 46%.
The mental part of our game is telling. We go out all guns blazing, believing that we will blow the opposition away by creating and burying the numerous chances we create, but we fail to do the main bit - actually score or score more than one solitary goal. The opposition get a major lift from this and dig in deeper, knowing that we have let them off the hook.
We then go into frustration mode - self doubt creeps in and envelopes the team - We get sloppy and switch off at the back at yet another set piece - BANG!! Further points dropped - followed by lots of talk in the Evening News by our players about how we will put things right in the next game. 2 points from 9 is far, far from "skooshing" the league. It's worrying also that we have had 3 games to either remain or go top and failed to deliver in all 3. What's worrying also is that as the weeks go by the teams around us have either caught us up or are so close that little actually separates us. We, at the moment' are just one among a pack of teams capable of automatic promotion. We are doing nothing to suggest otherwise.
Lennon can only play the players at his disposal, and when our best players are performing poorly, the whole team is let down. What on earth has happened to John McGinn this season? He has been, on the whole, no more than average with the odd moment of brilliance thrown in. The January window seems a long, long way off at this time - Hopefully we can stay with the pack until then.

G B Young
02-10-2016, 06:40 PM
That's an understatement. The BBC stats showed us dominating 62% to 38% in the first half and ultimately 54% to 46%.
The mental part of our game is telling. We go out all guns blazing, believing that we will blow the opposition away by creating and burying the numerous chances we create, but we fail to do the main bit - actually score or score more than one solitary goal. The opposition get a major lift from this and dig in deeper, knowing that we have let them off the hook.
We then go into frustration mode - self doubt creeps in and envelopes the team - We get sloppy and switch off at the back at yet another set piece - BANG!! Further points dropped - followed by lots of talk in the Evening News by our players about how we will put things right in the next game. 2 points from 9 is far, far from "skooshing" the league. It's worrying also that we have had 3 games to either remain or go top and failed to deliver in all 3. What's worrying also is that as the weeks go by the teams around us have either caught us up or are so close that little actually separates us. We, at the moment' are just one among a pack of teams capable of automatic promotion. We are doing nothing to suggest otherwise.
Lennon can only play the players at his disposal, and when our best players are performing poorly, the whole team is let down. What on earth has happened to John McGinn this season? He has been, on the whole, no more than average with the odd moment of brilliance thrown in. The January window seems a long, long way off at this time - Hopefully we can stay with the pack until then.

Jeez, is that what it's come to? 'The pack', based on what I've seen, is there for the taking and if we can't even stay with them then it's time to throw in the towel and accept our status in Scottish football as a lower tier side.

WhileTheChief..
02-10-2016, 07:37 PM
I've no problem with Lennon at all, fullly behind him.

Regulars in the team like Cummings, Hanlon & Stevenson are average at best. Appreciate that's not a popular view on here but I've thought this for some time. I think there will be changes in January for sure.

Considering we've been playing crap for most of the season I'm pretty pleased to only be one point off the top of the league and expect us to start pulling away over the next month or so.

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 07:42 PM
Jeez, is that what it's come to? 'The pack', based on what I've seen, is there for the taking and if we can't even stay with them then it's time to throw in the towel and accept our status in Scottish football as a lower tier side.

Sadly, it is a fact, that we are in a hungry, competing pack, with little separating us at this stage. Of course, things can change, and hopefully will for the better, but this can equally apply to the rest of the teams in the pack.
Last season, for example, all of us, including yours truly, felt that Falkirk would not last the pace and would end up way behind us in 3rd place, but they did more than this, they stayed the pace and beat us for not only 2nd spot but in the play offs.
We have to then assume that at least one of our other rivals (probably Dundee United) will indeed be neck and neck with us for that automatic promotion spot. Talk by some of us of Dundee United being "the worst in living memory" are at least disrespectful, and at most, utterly naive and premature.
Lennon himself said that we are not good enough to be complacent, and how accurate he was and is. We have an inherant slackness in our game (again, as Lennon has stated), resulting in us switching off individually and collectively, thus so many poor goals conceded from set pieces. Players who are not "up for it" can be found shirking or half-heartedly trying and relying on team mates to dig them out of a hole. Cummings, for all his goals, is a player (again identified by Lennon) as one whose efforts and input can be questioned.
I want to believe that lennon will address the issues that are presently consigning us to being "one in a pack" and will have us edging ahead with a little room to spare at the top come the end of January.
Until then, a little humility and a reality-check is in order.

IWasThere2016
02-10-2016, 07:46 PM
I thought we were stinking - against an awful Arabs side

Too many Hibs players not at the races..

Better better come and bl**dy soon!

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 07:57 PM
I thought we were stinking - against an awful Arabs side

Too many Hibs players not at the races..

Better better come and bl**dy soon!


We have to ask why?
Is it as simple as some of our players don't have the bottle, or can't be bothered?
Of course, we have to give credit sometimes to the opposition, but we have suffered too often these past 2 seasons of "Too many players not at the races!"

ancient hibee
02-10-2016, 08:09 PM
Sadly, it is a fact, that we are in a hungry, competing pack, with little separating us at this stage. Of course, things can change, and hopefully will for the better, but this can equally apply to the rest of the teams in the pack.
Last season, for example, all of us, including yours truly, felt that Falkirk would not last the pace and would end up way behind us in 3rd place, but they did more than this, they stayed the pace and beat us for not only 2nd spot but in the play offs.
We have to then assume that at least one of our other rivals (probably Dundee United) will indeed be neck and neck with us for that automatic promotion spot. Talk by some of us of Dundee United being "the worst in living memory" are at least disrespectful, and at most, utterly naive and premature.
Lennon himself said that we are not good enough to be complacent, and how accurate he was and is. We have an inherant slackness in our game (again, as Lennon has stated), resulting in us switching off individually and collectively, thus so many poor goals conceded from set pieces. Players who are not "up for it" can be found shirking or half-heartedly trying and relying on team mates to dig them out of a hole. Cummings, for all his goals, is a player (again identified by Lennon) as one whose efforts and input can be questioned.
I want to believe that lennon will address the issues that are presently consigning us to being "one in a pack" and will have us edging ahead with a little room to spare at the top come the end of January.
Until then, a little humility and a reality-check is in order.


It's not disrespectful or naive to talk about how poor a team United are.It is however accurate.

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 08:17 PM
It's not disrespectful or naive to talk about how poor a team United are.It is however accurate.

I want to believe that Dundee United are a poor team and an inferior one to ours, but with McKinnon in charge and with the likes of their dynamo, Fraser, in their ranks, I prefer to err on the side of caution and not dismiss the opposition so readily. Falkirk last season is one prime reason I don't easily dismiss.
Come next May, we will all know who the better side is.

Nakedmanoncrack
02-10-2016, 08:22 PM
Sadly, it is a fact, that we are in a hungry, competing pack, with little separating us at this stage. Of course, things can change, and hopefully will for the better, but this can equally apply to the rest of the teams in the pack.
Last season, for example, all of us, including yours truly, felt that Falkirk would not last the pace and would end up way behind us in 3rd place, but they did more than this, they stayed the pace and beat us for not only 2nd spot but in the play offs.
We have to then assume that at least one of our other rivals (probably Dundee United) will indeed be neck and neck with us for that automatic promotion spot. Talk by some of us of Dundee United being "the worst in living memory" are at least disrespectful, and at most, utterly naive and premature.
Lennon himself said that we are not good enough to be complacent, and how accurate he was and is. We have an inherant slackness in our game (again, as Lennon has stated), resulting in us switching off individually and collectively, thus so many poor goals conceded from set pieces. Players who are not "up for it" can be found shirking or half-heartedly trying and relying on team mates to dig them out of a hole. Cummings, for all his goals, is a player (again identified by Lennon) as one whose efforts and input can be questioned.
I want to believe that lennon will address the issues that are presently consigning us to being "one in a pack" and will have us edging ahead with a little room to spare at the top come the end of January.
Until then, a little humility and a reality-check is in order.

:agree:
Fair assessment.

ancient hibee
02-10-2016, 08:22 PM
I want to believe that Dundee United are a poor team and an inferior one to ours, but with McKinnon in charge and with the likes of their dynamo, Fraser, in their ranks, I prefer to err on the side of caution and not dismiss the opposition so readily. Falkirk last season is one prime reason I don't easily dismiss.
Come next May, we will all know who the better side is.

I didn't say that they were inferior to us.I didn't"t dismiss them as opposition.I didn't say who were th better team.I did say that they are a poor team.I would go furth r and say that they were the worse United team I have ever seen and that some of them are nowhere near being senior footballers.

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 08:35 PM
I didn't say that they were inferior to us.I didn't"t dismiss them as opposition.I didn't say who were th better team.I did say that they are a poor team.I would go furth r and say that they were the worse United team I have ever seen and that some of them are nowhere near being senior footballers.

I respect your right to comment though I disagree with your assessments.
Your post could end up hanging on the Dundee United dressing room wall for inspiration! lol

Mr White
02-10-2016, 08:37 PM
Your post could end up hanging on the Dundee United dressing room wall for inspiration! lol

Some of yours could end up on the hibs dressing room wall. Particularly if we were looking to motivate Lewis Stevenson.

Hi Heid Yin
02-10-2016, 08:54 PM
Some of yours could end up on the hibs dressing room wall. Particularly if we were looking to motivate Lewis Stevenson.

Fair do's.
If you read my comments on Lewis Stevenson, you will see that I actually like and respect the effort and commitment we get from him, but he is still a weak link.

Paisley Hibby
02-10-2016, 08:55 PM
I think we have become a fairly good Championship side struggling to get out of the Championship as opposed to a poor Premiership side struggling to get out of the Championship.

I don't think that's true. We're a good premier league side that still hasn't worked out how to break down negative well organised teams who just let us have the ball and wait.

Mr White
02-10-2016, 09:01 PM
Fair do's.
If you read my comments on Lewis Stevenson, you will see that I actually like and respect the effort and commitment we get from him, but he is still a weak link.

I have read them.

Highland_Hibee
02-10-2016, 09:37 PM
Maybe I'm deluded but I'm convinced we have the quality to win the league and make something of ourselves as a top flight side. If we are "not good enough" how come we can attract some of the biggest crowds in Scotland? How can we be holders of the National Cup? How can we have players attracting bids of upwards of a million pounds? Sure things don't look great right now but we are still in control of our own destiny. We are dominating matches and not taking our chances. That isn't going to last forever. Something has to give. Keep the faith.


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Booked4Being-Ugly
02-10-2016, 09:51 PM
I didn't say that they were inferior to us.I didn't"t dismiss them as opposition.I didn't say who were th better team.I did say that they are a poor team.I would go furth r and say that they were the worse United team I have ever seen and that some of them are nowhere near being senior footballers.I agree, i thought they were one of the poorest sides I've saw so far this season. I also watched the last 10 mins of their game against Falkirk who tore them a new one, attacking them with pace and urgency.

HibbiesandtheBaddies
02-10-2016, 09:52 PM
We stop pressing teams when we take a lead. We sit off, invite them on us and concede. This has, with few exceptions, been the case for the last few seasons.

Thought Lennon would sort this out.

Captain Trips
02-10-2016, 09:57 PM
We stop pressing teams when we take a lead. We sit off, invite them on us and concede. This has, with few exceptions, been the case for the last few seasons.

Thought Lennon would sort this out.

Tiresome really tiresome and piss poor that with a new manager of good pedigree we are talking about the same deficiencies 3/4 years on.

Get it sorted ffs Hibs.

Smartie
02-10-2016, 10:00 PM
Maybe I'm deluded but I'm convinced we have the quality to win the league and make something of ourselves as a top flight side. If we are "not good enough" how come we can attract some of the biggest crowds in Scotland? How can we be holders of the National Cup? How can we have players attracting bids of upwards of a million pounds? Sure things don't look great right now but we are still in control of our own destiny. We are dominating matches and not taking our chances. That isn't going to last forever. Something has to give. Keep the faith.


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I've been convinced of this for a couple of years but there comes a point where you have to ask what's going on.

Results don't lie and it's not like we're unlucky - we know the failings and keep making the same mistakes.

I remain convinced that we're a tactical tweak or key addition away from being an excellent side but some intelligent football people have tried and (so far) failed to make us the finished article so I honestly don't know what we need to do to get things going in the right direction again.

northstandhibby
02-10-2016, 10:01 PM
We stop pressing teams when we take a lead. We sit off, invite them on us and concede. This has, with few exceptions, been the case for the last few seasons.

Thought Lennon would sort this out.

Totally agree with this.

Was never convinced at 1-0 up we wouldn't concede. Had to try to get the second instead of sitting off.



GGTTH

NAE NOOKIE
02-10-2016, 11:17 PM
To be honest we have spent 2 full seasons asking why we cant break down defences and the same stuff comes up, we need more width, we need more pace, we need more guile. We all know what we need, what we have yet to see is the management of the club sort the problem and at the end of the day that's what they get paid for.

Alan Stubs was in his first management role and practically had to build a team from scratch, even then by half way through his second season folk were seriously beginning to ask questions of him because he seemed incapable of solving the same problem Neil Lennon now faces.
The difference is Lennon has spent a number of seasons playing for and managing a club who faced this very same problem just about every time they went onto the park, especially at home. Given that experience I don't expect him to still be scratching his head 7 games into the season trying to find a system or method of play that's going to unlock defences.

Just like Stubbs he seems incapable of making quick decisions regarding what to do to change things on the park when the game is beginning to turn against us or we are running out of ideas, not only that but he needs to start trusting the players at his disposal. At any point after 15 minutes of the start of the 2nd half today he could have hooked McGinn or Shinnie, or both, because they were stinking up the park, but he waited far too long to do so. He watched Callum Crane against Birmingham City the same as I did and the lad performed very well against players of a higher standard than Dundee Utd can put on the park ... young or not the guy is a specialist left back, so why not give him a shot instead of shoehorning a centre half into that position?

And to finish, my favourite moan that has applied to Hibs for the last 5 seasons, never mind the last two and the start of this one. If none of your midfielders make an effort to get into the box when you do manage to get down the flank your two strikers are left with two centre halves and the opposite side full back marking them, not to mention the oppositions one or two defensive midfielders who have dropped back to the edge of the box, no wonder our goals return is so poor and no wonder we probably have the worst goals return from midfield of just about any team in British senior football ... that's just a guess, but I bet we are miles off the top of any stats covering that side of the game ..... we play practically every game with 4 midfielders, you would think that at least one of them would be free to make a run into the box just about every time we get into the final third.

I was prepared to give Alan Stubbs a lot of leeway given his inexperience and the absolute fact that no matter how poor we were in a game it was clear that he had the players prepared to give their all for him and had created a great spirit around the place, at all times they looked like a team who wanted to play for him and each other, not only that but the undeniable fact that there isn't a manager in the history of Scottish football who wouldn't have woken up at night in a cold sweat at the thought of being relegated into the 2nd tier of the game with Rangers and Hearts waiting for him.

Neil Lennon has no such excuse, he has the experience, he has the players and he is manager of the biggest club in this league by some distance, I'm willing to bet he is on twice the money Stubbs was on as well. The fans are turning up in huge numbers to support the team, like Stubbs he will be backed by the board as has been proved by turning down over 1.5 million quid for JC

In short, I don't give a rats arse how he does it but he needs to sort out whatever the hell it is that's turning wins into draws and draws into defeats and he needs to start doing it sooner rather than later.

buktadays
02-10-2016, 11:25 PM
Totally agree with that I think. For example why can't any of them see how weak hanlon is in that position today?? So clear!!


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Forza Fred
02-10-2016, 11:27 PM
Fair do's.
If you read my comments on Lewis Stevenson, you will see that I actually like and respect the effort and commitment we get from him, but he is still a weak link.


To be honest we have spent 2 full seasons asking why we cant break down defences and the same stuff comes up, we need more width, we need more pace, we need more guile. We all know what we need, what we have yet to see is the management of the club sort the problem and at the end of the day that's what they get paid for.

Alan Stubs was in his first management role and practically had to build a team from scratch, even then by half way through his second season folk were seriously beginning to ask questions of him because he seemed incapable of solving the same problem Neil Lennon now faces.
The difference is Lennon has spent a number of seasons playing for and managing a club who faced this very same problem just about every time they went onto the park, especially at home. Given that experience I don't expect him to still be scratching his head 7 games into the season trying to find a system or method of play that's going to unlock defences.

Just like Stubbs he seems incapable of making quick decisions regarding what to do to change things on the park when the game is beginning to turn against us or we are running out of ideas, not only that but he needs to start trusting the players at his disposal. At any point after 15 minutes of the start of the 2nd half today he could have hooked McGinn or Shinnie, or both, because they were stinking up the park, but he waited far too long to do so. He watched Callum Crane against Birmingham City the same as I did and the lad performed very well against players of a higher standard than Dundee Utd can put on the park ... young or not the guy is a specialist left back, so why not give him a shot instead of shoehorning a centre half into that position?

And to finish, my favourite moan that has applied to Hibs for the last 5 seasons, never mind the last two and the start of this one. If none of your midfielders make an effort to get into the box when you do manage to get down the flank your two strikers are left with two centre halves and the opposite side full back marking them, not to mention the oppositions one or two defensive midfielders who have dropped back to the edge of the box, no wonder our goals return is so poor and no wonder we probably have the worst goals return from midfield of just about any team in British senior football ... that's just a guess, but I bet we are miles off the top of any stats covering that side of the game ..... we play practically every game with 4 midfielders, you would think that at least one of them would be free to make a run into the box just about every time we get into the final third.

I was prepared to give Alan Stubbs a lot of leeway given his inexperience and the absolute fact that no matter how poor we were in a game it was clear that he had the players prepared to give their all for him and had created a great spirit around the place, at all times they looked like a team who wanted to play for him and each other, not only that but the undeniable fact that there isn't a manager in the history of Scottish football who wouldn't have woken up at night in a cold sweat at the thought of being relegated into the 2nd tier of the game with Rangers and Hearts waiting for him.

Neil Lennon has no such excuse, he has the experience, he has the players and he is manager of the biggest club in this league by some distance, I'm willing to bet he is on twice the money Stubbs was on as well. The fans are turning up in huge numbers to support the team, like Stubbs he will be backed by the board as has been proved by turning down over 1.5 million quid for JC

In short, I don't give a rats arse how he does it but he needs to sort out whatever the hell it is that's turning wins into draws and draws into defeats and he needs to start doing it sooner rather than later.

Agree with most of this, and it probably illustrates the fans frustration collectively.

He can't put the ball in the net, but Lennon was brought here on the expectation that he WOULDget us promotion.

He knew he was coming to a side where the players' ability was less than what he was used to.

He now needs to demonstrate that he is not just a manager who can be successful with a team of high quality players, but can take a team of journeymen and make them better.

Just better enough, to finish above the other journeymen in the league.

NAE NOOKIE
02-10-2016, 11:56 PM
Agree with most of this, and it probably illustrates the fans frustration collectively.

He can't put the ball in the net, but Lennon was brought here on the expectation that he WOULDget us promotion.

He knew he was coming to a side where the players' ability was less than what he was used to.

He now needs to demonstrate that he is not just a manager who can be successful with a team of high quality players, but can take a team of journeymen and make them better.

Just better enough, to finish above the other journeymen in the league.

I think you are actually doing him a favour here. Our 'journeymen' include the following:

Marciano ...... An international goalkeeper.
Gray ........... Scottish cup winner and ex Man Utd player with long experience of a league supposedly two levels above the Scottish premiership.
Hanlon ........ Scottish cup winner and finalist two other times, league cup runner up and a wealth of experience in the SPL.
McGregor ..... Scottish cup winner and promoted twice with Cowdenbeath.
Fontaine ...... Scottish cup winner and over 250 games for Bristol City
Stevenson .... Scottish cup winner, league cup winner and countless other runners up medals with a wealth of experience in the SPL.
Fyvie ........... Scottish cup and FA cup winner
McGinn ........ Scottish cup winner, League cup winner, capped for Scotland while still in the Championship
Cummings ... Scottish cup winner, subject of a huge bid for a Championship player two months ago

Blah, blah, blah ... you get the idea.

Compared to what most of the other teams in this league can put on the park I would suggest the difference between us and them shouldn't be that far off the difference between Celtic and most of the teams in the Premiership ..... Its up to Neil Lennon to make sure we take full advantage of that.

Forza Fred
03-10-2016, 12:29 AM
I think you are actually doing him a favour here. Our 'journeymen' include the following:

Marciano ...... An international goalkeeper.
Gray ........... Scottish cup winner and ex Man Utd player with long experience of a league supposedly two levels above the Scottish premiership.
Hanlon ........ Scottish cup winner and finalist two other times, league cup runner up and a wealth of experience in the SPL.
McGregor ..... Scottish cup winner and promoted twice with Cowdenbeath.
Fontaine ...... Scottish cup winner and over 250 games for Bristol City
Stevenson .... Scottish cup winner, league cup winner and countless other runners up medals with a wealth of experience in the SPL.
Fyvie ........... Scottish cup and FA cup winner
McGinn ........ Scottish cup winner, League cup winner, capped for Scotland while still in the Championship
Cummings ... Scottish cup winner, subject of a huge bid for a Championship player two months ago

Blah, blah, blah ... you get the idea.

Compared to what most of the other teams in this league can put on the park I would suggest the difference between us and them shouldn't be that far off the difference between Celtic and most of the teams in the Premiership ..... Its up to Neil Lennon to make sure we take full advantage of that.

They play like journeymen.

Keith_M
03-10-2016, 08:31 AM
We were never as good as some people were making out and we're not as bad as others are making out now.


We're now split into two unrealistic camps, The Skooshers and The Brown Trouser Brigade.

Stevie Reid
03-10-2016, 09:45 AM
We were never as good as some people were making out and we're not as bad as others are making out now.

Pretty fair assessment. I reckon if we match our points total from the last two seasons (70) then we will win the league. Our current points per game average has us on track for 76.5

Trainor
03-10-2016, 10:11 AM
Zonal marking is going to cost us dearly unless we abandon it now.

Exactly. Seen plenty players scoring but never ever seen a "zone" bullet home a heider! Mark up FFS.

Smartie
03-10-2016, 10:11 AM
We were never as good as some people were making out and we're not as bad as others are making out now.


We're now split into two unrealistic camps, The Skooshers and The Brown Trouser Brigade.

The thing is though, unless we're skooshing the league it's not that unreasonable to be in the Brown Trouser Brigade.

There have been mitigating factors as to why we've not gone up the past 2 years - this year we have no excuses.

We have the budget, we have the big crowds, we don't have a resurgent Hearts or Rangers in the league.

Whilst I accept we have no divine right to win anything and shouldn't expect to just turn up and skoosh it, we could do without a dogfight or god forbid more bloody playoffs.

If the thought of a fourth year in the Championship doesn't get you Brown Trousered then I don't know what does. For all our poor individual results over the years, that would be the biggest catastrophe in my time watching Hibs.

Craig_in_Prague
03-10-2016, 10:30 AM
We are going to be reasonably steady, we won't lose many, but we'll also not score enough in each game to win as many games as we should.

The lack of quality players out wide is hurting us badly IMO.
Hanlon had so many good positions out wide in both halves, and I don't think Stevenson does much better out there when he has the ball.
We were many times in the final 3rd and should be hurting teams, but no decent wide men continues to haunt us.

If NL doesn't sort this out in January, I think it once again could cost us promotion.

Gray does better on the right, the new guy looked quite ok too, but down the left we are so so god damn wasteful and I don't blame the players - they're just doing their best.
3rd season in a row, with a very decent team, but lacking in quality out wide.

So I don't see too much changing till January, clearly Boyle/Harris aren't given the chance / are not the answer.

1 defeat from 8 isn't a bad return, with draws against QOTS away and UTD... No need to panic, but our ponderous, slow passing and lack of width is really our own downfall !

euro Hibby
03-10-2016, 10:39 AM
I would say 6/10 so far for the season. Seeing Hanlon at left back made we want Lewis back. Both Hibs full backs are not that great at the final delivery but both give

150 % and I think are not the reason for the poor goal return. When Keatings plays his corners are great but goal ration remains poor.

Let's see what october brings before panicking.

NAE NOOKIE
03-10-2016, 11:25 AM
They play like journeymen.

That's the difference though isn't it ...... we have a good group of players IMO and its up to the manager to make the most of them, if they were all freed tomorrow how many of them wouldn't receive an offer from clubs in the Premiership? which is allegedly a level above the one they currently play at.

Captain Trips
03-10-2016, 11:34 AM
James Keatings scored yesterday that is why he was brought in, He should start next game.

Smartie
03-10-2016, 11:40 AM
James Keatings scored yesterday that is why he was brought in, He should start next game.

I thought he was our best player yesterday by some distance and should definitely start the next game.

Hi Heid Yin
03-10-2016, 01:19 PM
We were never as good as some people were making out and we're not as bad as others are making out now.


We're now split into two unrealistic camps, The Skooshers and The Brown Trouser Brigade.

I have to disagree. There are, I'm sure, a great many of us who fall into neither camp.
We all react to momentum and the games we have just witnessed. In this respect, we are in a wee lull - 2 points from 9 clearly indicates this. I personally react to this and highlight what I perceive to be the failings of our side - the same failings that we have witnessed the past 2 years. This does not automatically make me part of a so-called "Brown Trouser Brigade"

G B Young
08-10-2016, 05:04 PM
I know it was only the Irn Bru Cup and I know we experimented with a new formation but by all accounts that was abysmal today. I'm really surprised by how little Lennon seems to be getting out of the players. How long do we put this down to teething problems?

madhatter
08-10-2016, 05:22 PM
Think we know answer to that this question now - we aren't very good.

steviehibsleith
08-10-2016, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE=NAE NOOKIE;4830747]He watched Callum Crane against Birmingham City the same as I did and the lad performed very well against players of a higher standard than Dundee Utd can put on the park ... young or not the guy is a specialist left back, so why not give him a shot instead of shoehorning a centre half into that position?

We started pre season early due to Europa league therefore were ahead of the game so to speak also this was just a friendly.

Crane was given a chance against Turiff in a competitive match and from what i saw wasnt very good. The manager sees the players every day in training if he plays HAnlon because Stevenson is out theres a reason.


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Unseen work
08-10-2016, 06:05 PM
He doesn't have a clue what his strongest team is

blackpoolhibs
08-10-2016, 06:20 PM
He doesn't have a clue what his strongest team is

to be perfectly honest neither do i, one week you think we need width and pace, the next we need guile and purpose but if i'm honest i dont think we have the right players for any system.

We just dont have sufficient quality in the right places to win many games easily, and the players we do have are struggling to win any games right now.

Our dip in form normally comes after the new year, its a worry it has started so early.

Jim44
08-10-2016, 06:26 PM
Answer to the OP - recent results undisputably prove that we are not very good. We are in a dog fight, which, despite having the players to win, I don't think we presently have the balls to see to a successful conclusion. We don''t do ' better to come '. We do ' looking promising but fail to deliver'. Unfortunstely, or maybe fortunately, it's come early this year, so, I suppose, we might get a grip and do something. I wouldn't hold my breath tho'.

Ilovehibs
08-10-2016, 06:30 PM
to be perfectly honest neither do i, one week you think we need width and pace, the next we need guile and purpose but if i'm honest i dont think we have the right players for any system.

We just dont have sufficient quality in the right places to win many games easily, and the players we do have are struggling to win any games right now.

Our dip in form normally comes after the new year, its a worry it has started so early.

I think you are right. We failed to strengthen the team and it is showing. Something needs to be done now before we are trailing in this league.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
08-10-2016, 06:59 PM
I agree we need to improve, but nobody is going to convince me that we are playong to anything like our maximum. That suggests to me that the problem at the moment does not lie with the players.

Jim44
08-10-2016, 07:02 PM
I agree we need to improve, but nobody is going to convince me that we are playong to anything like our maximum. That suggests to me that the problem at the moment does not lie with the players.

Who then! The manager? :dunno:

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
08-10-2016, 07:06 PM
Who then! The manager? :dunno:

Yeah, either from a man mananagement point of view, or a whatever the hell he is asking his players to do.

Complete lack of responsibility and players not doing anything remotely risky or off the cuff. That reminds me of hibs teams when we have had unhappy dressing rooms and/or rubbish managers.

There are echoes of when collins took over from mogga.

I really hope im wrong though.

Jim44
08-10-2016, 07:30 PM
Yeah, either from a man mananagement point of view, or a whatever the hell he is asking his players to do.

Complete lack of responsibility and players not doing anything remotely risky or off the cuff. That reminds me of hibs teams when we have had unhappy dressing rooms and/or rubbish managers.

I really hope im wrong though.

Unfortunately, I don't think you're wrong. Lennon makes me feel nervous. I don't think he gels with the club or at least his public personna doesn't suggest that he does.

Hi Heid Yin
08-10-2016, 08:19 PM
to be perfectly honest neither do i, one week you think we need width and pace, the next we need guile and purpose but if i'm honest i dont think we have the right players for any system.

We just dont have sufficient quality in the right places to win many games easily, and the players we do have are struggling to win any games right now.

Our dip in form normally comes after the new year, its a worry it has started so early.

That is a very good point.

HFCdeb
09-10-2016, 08:51 AM
We're desperately missing the killer pass in the final third. I'm assuming that's why he brought in Shinnie but unfortunately he has the first touch of a blind elephant and just runs like a headless chicken when he does manage to keep a hold of the ball, he looks panicked and not at all composed. Our midfield is packed with too many of the same type of player and we're desperately lacking one with vision and ability to create for our strikers. With quality strikers like Cummings and Holt, all they need is the service, but they're not getting it.
Other than the nightmare of zonal marking, I think our defence is pretty solid (Forster gives me the fear, though) and our strike force should be scoring for fun in this league. The problem is in the middle of the park.

JimBHibees
10-10-2016, 10:58 AM
We're desperately missing the killer pass in the final third. I'm assuming that's why he brought in Shinnie but unfortunately he has the first touch of a blind elephant and just runs like a headless chicken when he does manage to keep a hold of the ball, he looks panicked and not at all composed. Our midfield is packed with too many of the same type of player and we're desperately lacking one with vision and ability to create for our strikers. With quality strikers like Cummings and Holt, all they need is the service, but they're not getting it.
Other than the nightmare of zonal marking, I think our defence is pretty solid (Forster gives me the fear, though) and our strike force should be scoring for fun in this league. The problem is in the middle of the park.

Shinnie is a decent player and finds space very well however there is no doubt he is struggling at present. He was very good v Morton and looked exactly what we needed in being creative and a goal threat.

Dashing Bob S
12-10-2016, 12:23 PM
We were never as good as some people were making out and we're not as bad as others are making out now.


We're now split into two unrealistic camps, The Skooshers and The Brown Trouser Brigade.

This is a fair summary. In fact it's so good it's made me skoosh in my brown trousers.

Smartie
12-10-2016, 02:17 PM
This is a fair summary. In fact it's so good it's made me skoosh in my brown trousers.

I also have a foot in both camps, so to speak.

I'd go as far as to say I have a bit of a log flume going on.

Neil Lennon's log-flume army etc......

eastcoasthibby
12-10-2016, 02:55 PM
They play like journeymen.


Agree and also most of them play as though they are a cut above other players in the teams we meet, think they just need to turn up and it will be enough and as such other players who meet us, put the extra effort in to win individual battles and work together as a team. Our players need to get their heads round they are not worldbeaters and are not playing up to their potential, that they have no divine right and need to burst a gut to create chances, defend, make space for a shot, get into god areas and score goals. I watch and cringe, with the lack of movement up front, lack of drive from midfield to get up to support our forwards, don't drive at defenders with their pace, don't shoot in case they miss and lots more..... as you say they are playing like journeymen just now, with individuals pulling out special performances in the odd game.

Neil Lennon needs to take them in for extra sessions and make sure their attitudes are equipped to work to win every game, not see themselves as prima donna's ... I love our club and want us back up, those players need to understand how much it means to us and they have the honour and pleasure to play for this big Scottish club ... and get us back to the top league, but they need to change their attitudes to win at all costs !!!

snooky
13-10-2016, 12:58 AM
Hibs style of play catching on it would appear ....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37631122

:tin hat: :stirrer: :wink: