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Billy Whizz
27-09-2016, 11:07 AM
Left out of the Scotland under 21 squad. Looks like Scott Gemmill building for the next campaign

scoopyboy
27-09-2016, 11:10 AM
Left out of the Scotland under 21 squad. Looks like Scott Gemmill building for the next campaign

Does that in turn mean that the St.Mirren cup game will be on?

Billy Whizz
27-09-2016, 11:17 AM
Does that in turn mean that the St.Mirren cup game will be on?

Depends who else gets called up for the other squads?
Is it 3 and you can cancel?
Marciano, Virtanaen and McGinn possibly still

HibeeMackenzie
27-09-2016, 11:19 AM
Could potentially be in line for a senior call up?

JDHibs
27-09-2016, 11:41 AM
Either a senior call up in the offing or Gemmill looking forward to next years tournament where Cummings wont be eligible due to his age (I think)

Forza Fred
27-09-2016, 12:01 PM
Could potentially be in line for a senior call up?

No chance!

Brightside
27-09-2016, 12:02 PM
Gemill already said he would be dropping all the "older" players.... expect plenty up from the 17s and a couple from down south.

Smartie
27-09-2016, 12:05 PM
Gemill already said he would be dropping all the "older" players.... expect plenty up from the 17s and a couple from down south.

Quite right too.

California-Hibs
27-09-2016, 12:08 PM
Could potentially be in line for a senior call up?

No where near ready. Could think of dozens of strikers ahead of him.

CRAZYHIBBY
27-09-2016, 12:10 PM
No chance!

Anythings possible if T.Watt from hearts gets a call up

patlowe
27-09-2016, 12:32 PM
Pretty tough going for Jase - one measly game without a goal and you get publically criticised by the manager and dropped from the 21s :greengrin

Highland_Hibee
27-09-2016, 12:38 PM
Those saying he shouldn't get a call up to the first team. He's 21 now. He's not a kid. Get him in working with the first team, experiencing training with them etc. Not saying get him starting but I could think of worse impact subs than our Jason.


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Smartie
27-09-2016, 03:47 PM
Those saying he shouldn't get a call up to the first team. He's 21 now. He's not a kid. Get him in working with the first team, experiencing training with them etc. Not saying get him starting but I could think of worse impact subs than our Jason.


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There aren't many/ any better young prospects than him.

He's miles from the finished article and I don't think he's ready for that level yet but he IS improving.

Your suggestion is not anything like as mental as it sounds, particularly when you compare his stats with Ally McCoist at a similar age on that other thread.

It could go one of several ways for JC - he might improve further, get better at taking chances/ improving his all-round game and he reaches the level required to play full Internationals.

Or he might not.

But for all he frustrates the life out of me (and I'm probably one his biggest critics on here) there's no doubt that he's got something about him.

northstandhibby
27-09-2016, 04:51 PM
Those saying he shouldn't get a call up to the first team. He's 21 now. He's not a kid. Get him in working with the first team, experiencing training with them etc. Not saying get him starting but I could think of worse impact subs than our Jason.


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:top marks

The experience of it can only benefit such a talented young player. He is sure to be full cap some day soon.

Brooster
27-09-2016, 05:04 PM
Does that in turn mean that the St.Mirren cup game will be on?

I reckon Hibs will play the tie if we have 2 goalies available.

Sammy7nil
27-09-2016, 06:42 PM
Those saying he shouldn't get a call up to the first team. He's 21 now. He's not a kid. Get him in working with the first team, experiencing training with them etc. Not saying get him starting but I could think of worse impact subs than our Jason.


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Sparky has proved he is not ready do really think JC is anywhere near in terms of quality, physical presence, work rate or maturity to get near the squad? Look at players down south proven goalscorers at a better level that cant get sniff. JCwill have to improve and wait his turn.

Highland_Hibee
27-09-2016, 07:00 PM
Sparky has proved he is not ready do really think JC is anywhere near in terms of quality, physical presence, work rate or maturity to get near the squad? Look at players down south proven goalscorers at a better level that cant get sniff. JCwill have to improve and wait his turn.

[emoji38] Speaking like we have an abundance of talent at our disposal. Leigh Griffiths has never been given much of a start around the Scotland set up.

We have strikers such as Fletcher, Rhodes, Martin, Naismith and McCormack and they all have poor strike rates at International level.

Sticking with players like them "cos they have experience at a higher level" has seen us miss every major tournament for pushing on 20 years.

Players like Philip Lahm and Bastian Schweinsteiger didn't have experience on their side when they were blooded into the Germany set up.

If Scotland keep choosing to hold back hungry but rough around the edges talents then we are going to keep producing dull one dimensional players. I'm not saying JC is the answer but he has a part to play in a solution.


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blackpoolhibs
27-09-2016, 07:03 PM
Cummings is a good goalscorer, but i would think Strachan had completely flipped if he picked him for the Main squad.

macca70
27-09-2016, 07:23 PM
Depends who else gets called up for the other squads?
Is it 3 and you can cancel?
Marciano, Virtanaen and McGinn possibly still

Marciano not included in Israel squad so looks like St Mirren game will go ahead as planned.

Sammy7nil
27-09-2016, 07:44 PM
[emoji38] Speaking like we have an abundance of talent at our disposal. Leigh Griffiths has never been given much of a start around the Scotland set up.

We have strikers such as Fletcher, Rhodes, Martin, Naismith and McCormack and they all have poor strike rates at International level.

Sticking with players like them "cos they have experience at a higher level" has seen us miss every major tournament for pushing on 20 years.

Players like Philip Lahm and Bastian Schweinsteiger didn't have experience on their side when they were blooded into the Germany set up.

If Scotland keep choosing to hold back hungry but rough around the edges talents then we are going to keep producing dull one dimensional players. I'm not saying JC is the answer but he has a part to play in a solution.


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Were the players you mentioned playing their 3rd season outside the top divison?

Highland_Hibee
27-09-2016, 07:52 PM
Were the players you mentioned playing their 3rd season outside the top divison?

Not really relevant though is it? JC chose to remain with us this season. In case you forget we could have cashed in. He will leave us eventually so you will get your wish to see him fulfil your criteria for a call up. [emoji106]


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Nakedmanoncrack
27-09-2016, 09:32 PM
No where near ready. Could think of dozens of strikers ahead of him.

:rotflmao:

Ok, care to name them?
I'm not arguing that he should be called up now, but given the lack of players with ability he can't be that far away.

Sir David Gray
27-09-2016, 09:50 PM
There is absolutely no chance of Jason Cummings being involved in the Scotland first team squad any time soon.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
27-09-2016, 09:55 PM
There is absolutely no chance of Jason Cummings being involved in the Scotland first team squad any time soon.

And nor should there be.

I actually think its way too early for mcginn too, and he is well ahead of cummings in his development.

Highland_Hibee
27-09-2016, 10:14 PM
And nor should there be.

I actually think its way too early for mcginn too, and he is well ahead of cummings in his development.

Yet McGinn gets given one chance and is awarded MotM on his International debut?

Again I'm not trying to say we have world beaters on our hands. I'm just saying folk seem to put this imaginary barrier in front of young players. No one is going to be out of their depths playing against Malta or Lithuania.


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GreenNWhiteArmy
27-09-2016, 10:23 PM
Yet McGinn gets given one chance and is awarded MotM on his International debut?

Again I'm not trying to say we have world beaters on our hands. I'm just saying folk seem to put this imaginary barrier in front of young players. No one is going to be out of their depths playing against Malta or Lithuania.


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Tend to agree with your rationale behind Jase being included in a squad even if he doesn't get any game time it could be good for his confidence (not that he lacks any mind you) but also give him a glimpse at what the future holds if he keeps the heed.

Even training against guys like Martin and Hanley will be good for his development. Tactically he has a lot to learn

Smartie
27-09-2016, 10:29 PM
Yet McGinn gets given one chance and is awarded MotM on his International debut?

Again I'm not trying to say we have world beaters on our hands. I'm just saying folk seem to put this imaginary barrier in front of young players. No one is going to be out of their depths playing against Malta or Lithuania.


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Cummings has never looked out of place in our bigger games in the cup against Premier League teams - if anything he's struggled and should have done better against the wee teams and packed defences. I thought he did well against Brondby.

He's had his best games in derbies and games against The Rangers, he's scored some crackers and had some brilliant performances both at ER and at Ibrox against them.

If he can raise his game and do the business for us in front of 50,000 at Ibrox then why shouldn't he be capable of doing something against Malta or Lithuania even if it were for 10 - 15 minutes?

A decent argument could be made that he's more cut out for that than playing every minute every week for us at the moment. Remember when David Healy seemed to do the business regularly for NI at International level but never really seemed to do much for his clubs?

Highland_Hibee
27-09-2016, 10:33 PM
Even training against guys like Martin and Hanley will be good for his development. Tactically he has a lot to learn

Precisely. These "players at a higher level" that folk mention only got there by playing against players at a higher level. If we can aid players development by exposing them to this environment then we should use any advantage we can. What's the worst that can happen? We fail miserably in qualifying for a major tournament?


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Unseen work
27-09-2016, 11:00 PM
Iv got to admit I don't understand why we don't give more young players a "taster" of the national team.

If they are performing well at their respective club then they should be rewarded imo, it doesn't mean we need to start or even play them.

It does mean that when they are ready to play for the national team they are more at ease and settled with the squad.

Look at England, guys like Walcott getting calls up after half a dozen good games when they are 16, but it bloods them for the future.

I understand England isn't the best example as they always bottle it.

I would have no issue if guys like Cummings, Mcginn, Paterson, Tierney, Gauld or any other young guys we may rely on in the future getting a taste.

We can't play guys like, Darren and Steven Fletcher, Maloney etc etc until the end of time.

The squad is in desperate need of freshening up. Lately I will say it has improved however

California-Hibs
27-09-2016, 11:54 PM
:rotflmao:

Ok, care to name them?
I'm not arguing that he should be called up now, but given the lack of players with ability he can't be that far away.

Ok. So going into a competitive fixture like the Lithuania game, I'd rather have playing -

Griffiths
Snodgrass
Naismith
Fletcher
Ross McCormack
Rhodes
Chris Martin
Maloney
Watt
Johnny Russell


So there's 10 off the top of my head that I'd rather in there than Cummings. Jason is a very good goal scorer (at this level too remember) but his all round game needs vastly improved to be talking about full International Call-Up's.

You may disagree with my list. But each of those players has/is playing at a higher level, and would all be ahead of him in the picking order for me.

Centre Hawf
28-09-2016, 12:50 AM
FWIW I don't think think Jason is ready to play for the first team. But if Tony Watt is getting called up then he can't be far away from the discussion. Theres not many players from our nation banging them in with great frequency and Jason happens to be one of the few who are.

Perhaps rewarding him with a call up to bring him some experience of being around the squad would be valuable for him/Scotland/Hibs isn't the dumbest idea. But he is still at least a year or two away from being in the discussion to even play imho.

RIP Bestie
28-09-2016, 12:50 AM
Ok. So going into a competitive fixture like the Lithuania game, I'd rather have playing -

Griffiths
Snodgrass
Naismith
Fletcher
Ross McCormack
Rhodes
Chris Martin
Maloney
Watt
Johnny Russell


So there's 10 off the top of my head that I'd rather in there than Cummings. Jason is a very good goal scorer (at this level too remember) but his all round game needs vastly improved to be talking about full International Call-Up's.

You may disagree with my list. But each of those players has/is playing at a higher level, and would all be ahead of him in the picking order for me.

So not even one dozen, never mind dozens?. With all due respect, I don't think even half of your list have done anything of note when they have been given a chance at international level. Cummings could be a top player, don't see any harm in getting him involved in the full international squad. As Hibs fans surely we should be supporting any opportunity our players get rather than ridiculing them.

Forza Fred
28-09-2016, 02:16 AM
I reckon Hibs will play the tie if we have 2 goalies available.

We should keep a clean sheet then....:greengrin

California-Hibs
28-09-2016, 02:17 AM
So not even one dozen, never mind dozens?. With all due respect, I don't think even half of your list have done anything of note when they have been given a chance at international level. Cummings could be a top player, don't see any harm in getting him involved in the full international squad. As Hibs fans surely we should be supporting any opportunity our players get rather than ridiculing them.

Agree to disagree. And at no point was I 'ridiculing' him. I can take a balanced view and appreciate players abilities from other teams. May not of been 'dozens' but you'd be kidding yourself on if 10 players in front of you wasn't a heck of a waiting line. Cummings has age on his side vs the rest but there's many attributes he lacks and our manager will tell you that. You can find goals scored in the English Premiership/Championship from the players I provided. I hope more than anyone Cummings continues to progress.

However I firmly stand by my statement (and I know many others would too) that Cummings is not ready at all for a full Call Up.

SunshineOnLeith
28-09-2016, 07:29 AM
Dozens 😂

JDHibs
28-09-2016, 07:52 AM
Griffiths - Agreed
Snodgrass - Not a striker.
Naismith - Not a natural Goalscorer
Fletcher - Totally different player
Ross McCormack - Agreed
Rhodes - Agreed
Chris Martin - Totally differnet type of player
Maloney - Not a striker
Watt - Havent seen anything to suggest hes better than Cummings?
Johnny Russell - Not heard anything about him in MONTHS, speaks volumes.


So out of they 10, only 3 are similar type of players that would get in before Cummings imo. Pretty poor to try and compare Cummings to Fletcher. Totally different game styles. As for natural goalscorers there are hardly DOZENS of better players than Cummings in the Scotland set up. Hes done well in the U21s, hes doing well in his respective league and hes been consistent for 2 going on 3 seasons if he keeps scoring this season.

Players like Watt, Naismith, Russell and May even, arent consistent goal scorers.

Billy Whizz
28-09-2016, 08:18 AM
Squad is announced at 9.30am this morning

California-Hibs
28-09-2016, 08:29 AM
Griffiths - Agreed
Snodgrass - Not a striker.
Naismith - Not a natural Goalscorer
Fletcher - Totally different player
Ross McCormack - Agreed
Rhodes - Agreed
Chris Martin - Totally differnet type of player
Maloney - Not a striker
Watt - Havent seen anything to suggest hes better than Cummings?
Johnny Russell - Not heard anything about him in MONTHS, speaks volumes.


So out of they 10, only 3 are similar type of players that would get in before Cummings imo. Pretty poor to try and compare Cummings to Fletcher. Totally different game styles. As for natural goalscorers there are hardly DOZENS of better players than Cummings in the Scotland set up. Hes done well in the U21s, hes doing well in his respective league and hes been consistent for 2 going on 3 seasons if he keeps scoring this season.

Players like Watt, Naismith, Russell and May even, arent consistent goal scorers.

You lost all credibility when you dismissed Naismith. The lad has so many goals under his belt in the English Premier league for Everton, and just recently scored....against Everton. He's a top player and when fit would get into Scotland team every day of the week over Cummings. I would wager a bet that Cummings won't have anywhere near the career that Naismiths had.

Cummings is a great talent, we're lucky to have him and have him sign that new contract. He's key for our promotion hopes this year, however, he has a long way to go in the game and a lot of developing will need to be done.

We shall see. Would love for him to go to the top!

Brightside
28-09-2016, 08:37 AM
You lost all credibility when you dismissed Naismith. The lad has so many goals under his belt in the English Premier league for Everton, and just recently scored....against Everton. He's a top player and when fit would get into Scotland team every day of the week over Cummings. I would wager a bet that Cummings won't have anywhere near the career that Naismiths had.

Cummings is a great talent, we're lucky to have him and have him sign that new contract. He's key for our promotion hopes this year, however, he has a long way to go in the game and a lot of developing will need to be done.

We shall see. Would love for him to go to the top!

Naismith is nowhere hear the level he was two year ago.

Brightside
28-09-2016, 08:39 AM
I don't know why they bother with a squad announcement....not exactly a huge change!

chinaman
28-09-2016, 08:53 AM
Ok. So going into a competitive fixture like the Lithuania game, I'd rather have playing -

Griffiths
Snodgrass
Naismith
Fletcher
Ross McCormack
Rhodes
Chris Martin
Maloney
Watt
Johnny Russell


So there's 10 off the top of my head that I'd rather in there than Cummings. Jason is a very good goal scorer (at this level too remember) but his all round game needs vastly improved to be talking about full International Call-Up's.

You may disagree with my list. But each of those players has/is playing at a higher level, and would all be ahead of him in the picking order for me.

Too much sun am afraid c-h ; put a cold towel on your bonce.
Watt couldn't lace wee jase boots

California-Hibs
28-09-2016, 09:02 AM
Too much sun am afraid c-h ; put a cold towel on your bonce.
Watt couldn't lace wee jase boots

Haha, noted bud. I'll look out that cold towel now. While I'm at it, just where should I send that humble pie to should I (hopefully not) be proved right 😉

matty_f
28-09-2016, 09:16 AM
I think it's a big failing of the national set up that there's no space for graduating from the U21's through to the national team. It's something we need to get better at as a country if we're going to produce players good enough at that level.

Taking Cummings as an example, he's (IMHO) the best striker at that age group over the last two years (since Griffiths). Assuming he continues to progress and also that he continues to be deemed behind the 'experienced' strikers that are being picked ahead of him now, by the time he's considered to be ready (potentially in his late twenties) he's missed out on several years of international experience. Which, when you consider the quality that he's behind just now (which is above average but not especially great), seems a bit of a waste.

Surely it makes more sense to say to the older ones there (Naismith, Martin, Maloney, Fletcher) that they're time's up, and look at blooding a partnership of Griffiths and Cummings, two young and talented strikers, so when they do reach their peak they are doing it with plenty of international experience under their belts, rather than relying on them for a qualification group when they've not kicked a ball at that level ever?

JDHibs
28-09-2016, 09:46 AM
You lost all credibility when you dismissed Naismith. The lad has so many goals under his belt in the English Premier league for Everton, and just recently scored....against Everton. He's a top player and when fit would get into Scotland team every day of the week over Cummings. I would wager a bet that Cummings won't have anywhere near the career that Naismiths had.

Cummings is a great talent, we're lucky to have him and have him sign that new contract. He's key for our promotion hopes this year, however, he has a long way to go in the game and a lot of developing will need to be done.

We shall see. Would love for him to go to the top!

You cant talk about credibility then put Watt above Cummings as a striker, when Watt hasnt done anything in his career bar score 1 goal against Barca then live off of it for the next 3 or 4 years. Be serious please.

I didnt "dismiss" Naismith, i said hes not a natural goalscorer. "so many goals" he had 18 in 103 apps for Everton, again, not a natural goalscorer, decent record for a mid table team. Even at Rangers when they were in the top 2 in the country he got 28 in 98apps, hardly that of a top striker in the Scottish league when your team dominated everyone bar Celtic. So again, he isnt a natural goalscorer, as i said.

Cummings is a goalscorer, its what he does. Naismith isnt.

California-Hibs
28-09-2016, 11:49 AM
You cant talk about credibility then put Watt above Cummings as a striker, when Watt hasnt done anything in his career bar score 1 goal against Barca then live off of it for the next 3 or 4 years. Be serious please.

I didnt "dismiss" Naismith, i said hes not a natural goalscorer. "so many goals" he had 18 in 103 apps for Everton, again, not a natural goalscorer, decent record for a mid table team. Even at Rangers when they were in the top 2 in the country he got 28 in 98apps, hardly that of a top striker in the Scottish league when your team dominated everyone bar Celtic. So again, he isnt a natural goalscorer, as i said.

Cummings is a goalscorer, its what he does. Naismith isnt.

I understand your logic and I really don't want to put down our striker, but we have to keep in mind that the majority of Cummings career goals have came against Cowdenbeath and the likes. Do I think he could knock them in in the SPL? Of course! However English Prem/Championship like Naismith has (even though the ratio may be on the smaller side I admit) I CURRENTLY, have my doubts.

The guys young though like I said, which is a huge advantage for him.

When choosing between Naismith/Cummings for the national team right now, it's a bit of a no brainer for me.

RIP Bestie
28-09-2016, 12:10 PM
Agree to disagree. And at no point was I 'ridiculing' him. I can take a balanced view and appreciate players abilities from other teams. May not of been 'dozens' but you'd be kidding yourself on if 10 players in front of you wasn't a heck of a waiting line. Cummings has age on his side vs the rest but there's many attributes he lacks and our manager will tell you that. You can find goals scored in the English Premiership/Championship from the players I provided. I hope more than anyone Cummings continues to progress.

However I firmly stand by my statement (and I know many others would too) that Cummings is not ready at all for a full Call Up.

When you put Watt and Russell in that list, in my opinion, you ridiculed him. Many of the players in your list have had a chance and not taken it and it wouldn't bother me if they never pulled on a Scotland jersey again. We have to move on from Maloney who has done well, although he is not a striker and Naismith who is getting on a bit and hasn't been prolific at international level. Never once did I say that Jason deserved a starting place but that it would be beneficial to have him in the full squad. He is without doubt one of Scotland's brightest lights and it is important that all is done to continue his development. If he is too old for the 21s I feel that he should be allowed to continue his development in the full squad. If he needs to be called apron to play I'm sure he wouldn't let anyone down. If we are being honest, who would have thought that John McGinn would have transgressed to the full team as well as he did. He's played at the same level as Jason has over the past 3 years and nobody really raised an eyebrow at his inclusion.

ancient hibee
28-09-2016, 12:25 PM
As long as Strachan wants to play his present system a striker like Cummings will never get picked although the exposure to the training camp would be good for him.The one really missing from the squad is of course Paul Hanlon.

SunshineOnLeith
28-09-2016, 12:41 PM
Scotland squad named with 4 forwards. Gutted for the 20 or so (at least!) Scottish strikers better than Cummings who have been left out.

Dozens 😂

Alex Trager
28-09-2016, 01:22 PM
If the Scotland setup had any tactical nouse about them, they'd be calling up a whole lot more youngsters, to - as many have said prior- get them used to the set up, try and bring them forward in their game. I'd love it if our whole squad got called up haha! it would surely only benefit them as players.

That is what people are saying, noone is saying we should start or even play Cummings, but it would be a great help in getting him ready for the step up.

And that goes especially with the friendly games, get them thrown in, take a whole lot of the 21's with you and mix them up with the 'big boys', and then your games against Malta etc. throw them into the squad again, let them get a feel of what it means to be in a competitive setting.

But then again we could just stick with the folk that haven't gotten us qualified for the last twenty years.:cb

pacoluna
28-09-2016, 03:11 PM
We are in the bleeding Scottish chship! Take off your green tinted specs, Cummings is a long way from the Scotland squad I have no doubt at some point in his career he will make it though. as Lennon said if he ain't scoring goals he's a man missing now why would Strahan then call him up after his club manager has just said that about him when playing in Scotlands second tier

ancient hibee
28-09-2016, 05:08 PM
We are in the bleeding Scottish chship! Take off your green tinted specs, Cummings is a long way from the Scotland squad I have no doubt at some point in his career he will make it though. as Lennon said if he ain't scoring goals he's a man missing now why would Strahan then call him up after his club manager has just said that about him when playing in Scotlands second tier


Because he's a contrary little s**t?