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Super_JMcGinn
25-09-2016, 01:51 PM
I have said the same for the past 2 seasons, hopefully it has the desired effect. Lennon's post match thoughts on Jason.


“My attacking players were poor and this needs to be addressed,” said a frustrated Lennon. “Jason missed two gilt-edged chances – a header from five yards, and one from a corner where the ball dropped to him two yards from goal. All he had to do was make decent contact and we would have been a goal up.
“We should be doing better in the final third. These chances all seem to fall to Jason. He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better.
“We are dominating games and creating chances and the vast majority come to Jason. So, we can also ask the others ‘where are you? Why is everything falling to Jason?’.”

Heisenberg
25-09-2016, 02:00 PM
Jason does tend to need a few chances a game before he scores. Can't doubt his record though. We badly need others to step up, hopefully Shinnie can be that type of midfielder for us.

J-C
25-09-2016, 02:00 PM
I have said the same for the past 2 seasons, hopefully it has the desired effect. Lennon's post match thoughts on Jason.


“My attacking players were poor and this needs to be addressed,” said a frustrated Lennon. “Jason missed two gilt-edged chances – a header from five yards, and one from a corner where the ball dropped to him two yards from goal. All he had to do was make decent contact and we would have been a goal up.
“We should be doing better in the final third. These chances all seem to fall to Jason. He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better.
“We are dominating games and creating chances and the vast majority come to Jason. So, we can also ask the others ‘where are you? Why is everything falling to Jason?’.”


It's what Jason is, scores loads but misses even more, in this league he should've been well into 30+ goals a season but he hasn't only 18 goals in the league the past 2 seasons, with 21 & 25 in total. Our shots on target to goals scored is and has been one of the worst in this league this past 2 seasons and it needs improved quickly.

Hi Heid Yin
25-09-2016, 03:33 PM
I was wondering when our failings of the past two years would get to Neil Lennon.
Now, maybe now, he can see with his own eyes the collective weakness of the team he has inherited - lots of possession, lots of chances created, but a very, very poor goals return.
Jason is, ironically, the biggest culprit in missing chance after chance. Without question he is a natural scorer, but he gives the impression that once he scores that he can down tools and become a bit of a flash showman with tricks and flicks and trying to put the ball in the back of the net in a spectacular fashion, rather than focus on hitting the ball cleanly. There is no way we can afford to drop him, especially when no one but no one else is stepping up to the plate. Because of this collective failing, we have as much chance of missing out on automatic promotion as the rest of the teams in the current mix at the top. Pretty football without a ruthlessness in front of goals (ie Hearts and The Rangers automatic promotion-winning teams)and no cutting edge has led to us failing to reach our objective these past 2 seasons.
Come on Neil: please sort it out

Ronniekirk
25-09-2016, 03:53 PM
He must be hoping his direct criticism ofJason gets his goalscoring form back on track But interesting that he is pointing out that when missing chances and not scoring , he isnt contributing an awfull lot else at present to the team
Also asking why all the chances are falling to Cummings and why aren't others getting onto good positions

Sir David Gray
25-09-2016, 04:04 PM
OK so he's noticing our failings, that's the easy part.

It's slightly harder to rectify them, which is what he needs to do.

2 goals from 3 games against Dumbarton, Ayr Utd and Queen of the South (one of which was a penalty) isn't really good enough.

Keith_M
25-09-2016, 04:10 PM
Two of the most prolific Scottish strikers of the 80s and 90s, McCoist and Robertson, would miss a barrowload of chances but still score enough to be valuable to the team.

Yes, Cummings has to try to convert more of the chances presented to him (we're in the 1st division, theoretically it should be easier to score) but other players need to step up to the mark and not leave it all to Jason.

calumhibee1
25-09-2016, 04:15 PM
If Jason scored even more than he already does then he wouldn't be at Hibs.

Highland_Hibee
25-09-2016, 04:22 PM
For some reason that kind of reaction in the public eye endears Lennon to me a little more. Can you imagine Warburton in charge? He would be coming out and telling us "from start to finish we were good in parts". Guarantee our midfield are getting a bollocking for not putting away chances themselves and are now looking at ways to get some of them more involved around the penalty area. Hopefully have Lennon after the game on Sunday praising the response from our midfield after one of them gets on the scoresheet vs the Arabs.

Viva_Palmeiras
25-09-2016, 04:26 PM
Sounds like he's also saying its up to the others to get into alternative positions; make the right decisions; be clinical when we're presented with the chance.

superfurryhibby
25-09-2016, 04:26 PM
Two of the most prolific Scottish strikers of the 80s and 90s, McCoist and Robertson, would miss a barrowload of chances but still score enough to be valuable to the team.

Yes, Cummings has to try to convert more of the chances presented to him (we're in the 1st division, theoretically it should be easier to score) but other players need to step up to the mark and not leave it all to Jason.

Agree, but both Robertson and McCoist contributed way more in terms of build up, in the last third or through linking with others.

Strongly endorse the last point. Lack of goals elsewhere in the team is not good. Heaps pressure on Cummings and means we are always vulnerable to losing /drawing games where our general play should have seen us out of sight.

Libby Hibby
25-09-2016, 04:26 PM
Good comments from Lennon and shows he sees like the rest of us, if Jason isn't scoring, he offers very little to the side.

Keith_M
25-09-2016, 04:28 PM
If Jason scored even more than he already does then he wouldn't be at Hibs.


Doesn't mean he shouldn't try harder.

If he does, and ends up scoring 30 goals then leaves for better things at the end of the season, I'm sure he'll leave with all our best wishes... and a barrowload of cash coming in the opposite direction.

NORTHERNHIBBY
25-09-2016, 04:46 PM
Nothing earth shattering from NL. The wider point is that when your main striker is having a lean time it really exposes where the rest of the goals come from.

B.H.F.C
25-09-2016, 05:09 PM
Nothing earth shattering from NL. The wider point is that when your main striker is having a lean time it really exposes where the rest of the goals come from.

He's not been having a lean time though. He's only failed to score in one league game. Unless others start to step up we will be in some state if he does have a lean spell.

brog
25-09-2016, 06:02 PM
I have said the same for the past 2 seasons, hopefully it has the desired effect. Lennon's post match thoughts on Jason.


“My attacking players were poor and this needs to be addressed,” said a frustrated Lennon. “Jason missed two gilt-edged chances – a header from five yards, and one from a corner where the ball dropped to him two yards from goal. All he had to do was make decent contact and we would have been a goal up.
“We should be doing better in the final third. These chances all seem to fall to Jason. He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better.
“We are dominating games and creating chances and the vast majority come to Jason. So, we can also ask the others ‘where are you? Why is everything falling to Jason?’.”

Maybe Lennon should have a look at himself, he signed both of JC's co-strikers & they certainly haven't delivered. He seems to prefer a big target man beside JC but personally I would like to see the much more mobile Keatings get an opportunity.

hibsbollah
25-09-2016, 06:05 PM
Two of the most prolific Scottish strikers of the 80s and 90s, McCoist and Robertson, would miss a barrowload of chances but still score enough to be valuable to the team.

Yes, Cummings has to try to convert more of the chances presented to him (we're in the 1st division, theoretically it should be easier to score) but other players need to step up to the mark and not leave it all to Jason.

Exactly. Centre forward play is 75% getting in the right positions, a lot of it being instinctive, you just cant coach the timing of the run. One of the worst allround footballers ever to pull on a Hibs shirt was Colin Nish in my opinion, yet he had a very good scoring record because he had the knack of being at the back post at the right time. If Jason is getting 5 chances and missing 3 of them hes still creating those 5 by making the correct runs. That's what the 'assist' stat doesn't recognise.

greenlex
25-09-2016, 06:14 PM
Lennon needs to keep these thoughts and remarks in house and to the player/players concerned. A straight "I'd like to see him take more of his chances" and "the others need to step up to the plate too" would suffice if asked the question.

BlackSheep
25-09-2016, 06:46 PM
Lennon's comments can have one of two effects-

1. Cummings is fired up by them and gets his head down and starts working to rectify what Lennon has criticised.

2. His head drops and he starts to try too hard and his game is affected.

I would assume that by now Lennon has a good handle on how the team and individual players think, so I would assume the former is what he expects.

Cummings knows he is a goalscorer, but he is definitely not the finished article, all the speculation over a move in the summer may have gone to his head and these comments are Lennon's way of keeping him grounded.

RIP
25-09-2016, 07:45 PM
If Neil Lennon wants things to be improved he should speak to the Hibs first team coach.

It is that person's job to sort that **** out!

Big L
25-09-2016, 07:48 PM
If Lennon had checked JC's stats he would have seen that he scores about 20% of his chances, which is quite low. He has missed a hell of a lot of really easy chances and that's the one thing he really has to improve on. In all the years I have watched The Hibs I have neve seen a striker miss so many certs. The lad is a talent and he is still young, so time is on his side but it's not on ours!

brog
25-09-2016, 08:19 PM
If Lennon had checked JC's stats he would have seen that he scores about 20% of his chances, which is quite low. He has missed a hell of a lot of really easy chances and that's the one thing he really has to improve on. In all the years I have watched The Hibs I have neve seen a striker miss so many certs. The lad is a talent and he is still young, so time is on his side but it's not on ours!

You'll have to tell me where to find these stats, I've never seen them. How do you define a chance? JC scored a wonder goal last week, if he had hit the bar, or if he didn't even shoot from 25 yards would that have been a chance missed? For your comment to be accurate JC would have had to have had about 300 chances in the last couple of seasons & that's just not feasible.

Big L
25-09-2016, 09:45 PM
You'll have to tell me where to find these stats, I've never seen them. How do you define a chance? JC scored a wonder goal last week, if he had hit the bar, or if he didn't even shoot from 25 yards would that have been a chance missed? For your comment to be accurate JC would have had to have had about 300 chances in the last couple of seasons & that's just not feasible.

The stats I read quoted approx 100 chances/ shots, lper season. 40% on target and around 20% resulted in a goal. I have said since he hit the first team that he needs to be more clinical. I have never in over 60 yrs of supporting The Hibs seen a striker miss so many glaring certs, yet he scores some smashing goals. His strike rate in the past two and half seasons has not improved and I have to wonder if it ever will, in saynig that he will get 20 plus goals this season again and we have no one else who will get near that. He must have played 50 games last season, it's not difficult to assume that he would get at least a couple of chances a game!

Edson Arantes
25-09-2016, 10:02 PM
Jason should do better.

Knows where the goal is but sometimes takes too long. Not the brightest stone in the ring.

GGTTH :flag:

Edson Arantes
25-09-2016, 10:04 PM
If you actually do a concise analysis of his goals versus chances it's 18.93%.

Less than a fifth.

snooky
25-09-2016, 10:15 PM
NL makes a good point.
Fat Sally was a terrible goalscorer missing many easy chances BUT it was he who got himself into the right position to miss all those chances.

Sir David Gray
25-09-2016, 10:16 PM
If you actually do a concise analysis of his goals versus chances it's 18.93%.

Less than a fifth.

If he had scored every one of his chances last season he would have scored over 100 goals and would currently be employed by one of the top clubs in Europe.

snooky
25-09-2016, 10:18 PM
If he had scored every one of his chances last season he would have scored over 100 goals and would currently be employed by one of the top clubs in Europe.


He already is. :greengrin

Smartie
25-09-2016, 10:22 PM
I remember someone on here referring to "the Cummings conundrum".

It's strange - he scores plenty of goals but the team consistently fail to score enough. It seems unthinkable to drop him but I wonder if that is exactly what we need to do. We need goals from more sources but when he plays it all seems to go through him. We've tried sticking a big target man up there with him but that does't seem to have us scoring any more.

We've got Keatings in the squad who started the season well and has a track record of scoring lots of goals at this level and we've got Boyle - on here we often look back at Hearts and Rangers winning the league in style and mention the pace and directness they used yet we rarely start Boyle.

I really don't know what the answer is but at the moment I'm a bit apprehensive and there have been many signs in the past 3 games that we look the same as we did the past few years.

FWIW I still think we'll go up (we were fine in our first 4 games) but unless we solve this conundrum then I suspect it'll be a lot closer than it might/should have been.

Dunbar Hibee
25-09-2016, 10:24 PM
Slate our only goalscorer (who's very young) aye very good Lennon.

silverhibee
25-09-2016, 10:24 PM
He's not been having a lean time though. He's only failed to score in one league game. Unless others start to step up we will be in some state if he does have a lean spell.

Spot on, it ain't Cummings he should be having a go at, Holt McGinn Shinnie & co need to get the finger out and start weighing in with some goals pretty soon as we can't rely on Jason all season.

Big L
25-09-2016, 10:32 PM
Slate our only goalscorer (who's very young) aye very good Lennon.

I don't think he's slating him, I think like the rest of us he appreciates his undoubted talent, but like the rest of us he is frustrated at the chances he doesn't convert!

silverhibee
25-09-2016, 10:43 PM
I don't think he's slating him, I think like the rest of us he appreciates his undoubted talent, but like the rest of us he is frustrated at the chances he doesn't convert!

But he isn't going to convert every chance he gets, just like every other striker that plays football doesn't convert every chance, Lennon should be having a go at the others who have so far to get on the score sheet this season, they are the ones letting Lennon down, certainly not Cummings that's for sure, where would we be in the league with out his goals, we need more help from other players on the pitch.

Captain Trips
25-09-2016, 10:49 PM
But he isn't going to convert every chance he gets, just like every other striker that plays football doesn't convert every chance, Lennon should be having a go at the others who have so far to get on the score sheet this season, they are the ones letting Lennon down, certainly not Cummings that's for sure, where would we be in the league with out his goals, we need more help from other players on the pitch.

Pretty much it, Cummings misses chances but the concern is why are other players barely on end of things to score or miss. Of all the players we could have from past playing now with the things as they are now a Pat McGinlay is whats needed.

J-C
25-09-2016, 10:59 PM
Slate our only goalscorer (who's very young) aye very good Lennon.

And a goalscorer who's just signed a pretty decent contract extention, we all know Cummings scores but he really needs to develop the rest of his game. Look at Griffiths and how his all round game is one of the best going around.

Dunbar Hibee
25-09-2016, 11:12 PM
And a goalscorer who's just signed a pretty decent contract extention, we all know Cummings scores but he really needs to develop the rest of his game. Look at Griffiths and how his all round game is one of the best going around.

Without Jason we would be ****ed....

Stevie Reid
25-09-2016, 11:25 PM
NL makes a good point.
Fat Sally was a terrible goalscorer missing many easy chances BUT it was he who got himself into the right position to miss all those chances.

McCoist scored 331 goals in his career.

HibbiesandtheBaddies
25-09-2016, 11:41 PM
Lennon not a happy chappy !!!

good.

Big L
26-09-2016, 12:38 AM
Slate our only goalscorer (who's very young) aye very good Lennon.

You really can't ignore the glaring misses, we could have been 2 up before Stevenson's sending off. He's the great enigma, scores great goals and misses the certs, and, we can,t drop him because he is the only consistent scorer.

Hi Heid Yin
26-09-2016, 01:01 AM
You really can't ignore the glaring misses, we could have been 2 up before Stevenson's sending off. He's the great enigma, scores great goals and misses the certs, and, we can,t drop him because he is the only consistent scorer.

He mises the certs because he is too casual and is always looking for the clever and witty flick or score the outrageous goal.
This casual side to his game is infuriating to lennon and all of us - remember that embarrassing penalty chip over the bar?
JC would be one hell of a player if he applied himself properly and performed clinically for the entire 90 minutes. He has a tendency to score a goal and then relax - contributing little therafter. It's like we are a man down once he drifts off into his own wee world.
Come on JC. Get the finger out!
And that goes for the rest of your shot shy team mates.

Steve20
26-09-2016, 01:02 AM
It's time for others to start scoring too. We also need to create more chances. We create nowhere near enough against poor opposition.

CmoantheHibs
26-09-2016, 04:24 AM
My take on it is that it is more of a back handed compliment to Jason and a criticism of other players. Basically he is telling Jason that to improve his all round game and score more goals he needs to focus better for 90 minutes. Jason is a young improving player and I think this is sound advice for him from Lennon. I think its the other older more experienced players he is having a pop at more so than Jason by saying we have a young guy just learning the game who finds himself in most of the scoring positions we create yet you more experienced guys are nowhere to be seen. He is basically telling the other players they need to get the finger out and give some support to our young striker in the goal scoring stakes.

ian cruise
26-09-2016, 06:23 AM
I don't think he's slating him, I think like the rest of us he appreciates his undoubted talent, but like the rest of us he is frustrated at the chances he doesn't convert!

I don't doubt that this isn't a conversation Neil and Jason have had behind closed doors already. I don't see it as slating him, felt it was more critical of the other players not helping him out.

The Leith Dutch
26-09-2016, 07:51 AM
If he had scored every one of his chances last season he would have scored over 100 goals and would currently be employed by one of the top clubs in Europe.

I presume the point was not that we expect 100% conversion rate but that < 19% is disappointing.

Cummings is an excellent prospect but his overall goals rate has not been great the last two seasons.
Yes, he's young but 18 a season at the level he's playing it is less than most people whould say he's capable of.

If he can double his conversion rate then we should be looking at 30+ goals which I think is not an unreasonable ask playing for the team with the best resources in a division with a lot of very poor teams.

BoomtownHibees
26-09-2016, 08:22 AM
I presume the point was not that we expect 100% conversion rate but that < 19% is disappointing.

Cummings is an excellent prospect but his overall goals rate has not been great the last two seasons.
Yes, he's young but 18 a season at the level he's playing it is less than most people whould say he's capable of.

If he can double his conversion rate then we should be looking at 30+ goals which I think is not an unreasonable ask playing for the team with the best resources in a division with a lot of very poor teams.

At 21 years old he has scored 55 goals in just 117 games. That's a pretty decent record regardless of how many chances he's had.

I think we need to stop looking to blame the one guy doing what he's there to do and focus on the others in the team that should be contributing so much more on the goals front.

You are asking him to double his scoring rate meaning he would be on 110 goals in 117 games. At least try and be a bit realistic.

offshorehibby
26-09-2016, 08:29 AM
While NL is taking a slight dig at Jas i think it's directed at the rest of the team as well to be pitching in with goals.

Personally i think Jason has improved substantially year on year since he's been here.

Edson Arantes
26-09-2016, 08:38 AM
He already is. :greengrin

Like it!

:thumbsup:

J-C
26-09-2016, 08:49 AM
Looking at last seasons stats from the EPL the main guys are averaging between 27-35% conversion rate, yes it's a different level of football but it still shows that the top strikers in any league are scoring more goals with the chances given. I said in another post that Jason should be scoring 30+ goals in this league and the fact that he's only scored 21 & 25 the last 2 seasons, proves he's not scoring enough and neither in anyone else. We have moaned this last 2 seasons about not scoring enough and not converting the many chances made, that problem still occurs, why can't real life be like Football Manager where Jason scored 38 goals in the league :greengrin

J-C
26-09-2016, 08:52 AM
While NL is taking a slight dig at Jas i think it's directed at the rest of the team as well to be pitching in with goals.

Personally i think Jason has improved substantially year on year since he's been here.




Club
Season
League
Scottish Cup
League Cup
Other
Total


App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals


Hibernian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernian_F.C.)
2013–14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Hibernian_F.C._season)
16
0
0
0
0
0
2
2
18
2


2014–15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
4
1
3
1
2
1
42
21


2015–16 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
5
2
6
4
5
1
49
25


2016–17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Hibernian_F.C._season)
5
7
0
0
1
0
2
0
8
7


Career total
87
43
9
3
10
5
11
4
117
55





Not a lot of difference if any from 14-15 to 15-16, his game may have improved but his strike rate is the same.


Edit, move the numbers 1 space to the left, copy abd paste doesn't always come out the way you want it.

SlickShoes
26-09-2016, 08:54 AM
Don't see the problem with what he is saying, he is saying that Jason does need to be more clinical but he also needs help, I'm sure he will have also spoke to the players about this, no need to get your panties in a bunch because he said something negative about a player you like.

offshorehibby
26-09-2016, 08:58 AM
Club
Season
League
Scottish Cup
League Cup
Other
Total


App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals


Hibernian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernian_F.C.)
2013–14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Hibernian_F.C._season)
16
0
0
0
0
0
2
2
18
2


2014–15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
4
1
3
1
2
1
42
21


2015–16 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
5
2
6
4
5
1
49
25


2016–17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Hibernian_F.C._season)
5
7
0
0
1
0
2
0
8
7


Career total
87
43
9
3
10
5
11
4
117
55





Not a lot of difference if any from 14-15 to 15-16, his game may have improved but his strike rate is the same.


Edit, move the numbers 1 space to the left, copy abd paste doesn't always come out the way you want it.

I appreciate people want to see him banging in goals as i do but i was meaning his general play has improved, again you would expect a young player to improve year on year.

Mikey09
26-09-2016, 09:04 AM
Nothing wrong with what Lennon has said. I Don't think he's criticising Jason's goal scoring. He's telling the others to buck their ideas up. I think if it continues this way then we will see Keatings get his chance up front. Big game on Sunday and one that we can put a huge dent in Utd's title bid even this early in the season.

The_Horde
26-09-2016, 09:05 AM
Jason, yet again, is the only one trying things that are out of the ordinary or taking a gamble.

Be brave hibs.

brog
26-09-2016, 09:29 AM
If you actually do a concise analysis of his goals versus chances it's 18.93%.

Less than a fifth.

Again, I'd like to know where these "stats" come from, presumably FM or some such computer game? How on earth someone can measure a "chance" is beyond me. JC gets most criticism, sometimes rightly IMO, for trying outrageous shots from distance or tight angles, instead of playing in a colleague. If only JC knew these shots were ruining his stats I'm sure he'd be less selfish, then again we would have a lot less goals. At the end of the day the only stats that matter are Jason is our top scorer & he has 8 times the number of goals that our 2nd top scorer has! I understand what NL is trying to do but I'm not sure its the wisest move. PS, the 2 worst misses I've seen this season both came from Grant Holt vs Pars!

JDHibs
26-09-2016, 10:30 AM
Atleast he is seeing the issue, but can he sort it out?

Cant rely on Cummings to solely score our goals. The rest of the team need to do better!

Holts done well at the hold up part of the game but not at the scoring side.
Shinnie hesitates too much and wants it on a plate.
McGinn is shooting more often but its usually from 20+ yards and to say its way word is an understatement.
Fyvie tries to be the creator so isnt making runs into the box
Bartley/McGeough will never score goals consistantly. Never.

Somethings got to change, how come we dont score more from corners? We get loads of corners per game and do nothing with them, we have tried a number of people taking them and none of it works.

Its time to change formation/tempo/tactics/ Lennon is playing the same way as Stubbs. Both Hearts and Rangers won this league with pace, energy and a high tempo, yet we are in the 3rd season of playing the same way?!?! Get back to basics. 4-4-2 with wingers. This system of using the full backs as our width isnt working and leaves us tight at the back. Use Boyle and Harris on the wings. McGeough and McGinn centre mids, we shouldnt have to play a defensive mid in this league. Get players and balls into the box as quickly as possible.

Geo_1875
26-09-2016, 11:40 AM
It's time for others to start scoring too. We also need to create more chances. We create nowhere near enough against poor opposition.

We've been shot-shy for years. We have players who refuse to take a chance from outside the box and often the ones who do don't hit the target. Jason and John McGinn are the only 2 willing to take a pot-shot and the results are mixed. I'd rather see a midfielder take a shot with the possibility of scoring or at least the ball breaking to a team-mate than watch 20 passes waiting for the killer ball which usually fails to appear.

ekhibee
26-09-2016, 11:40 AM
But he isn't going to convert every chance he gets, just like every other striker that plays football doesn't convert every chance, Lennon should be having a go at the others who have so far to get on the score sheet this season, they are the ones letting Lennon down, certainly not Cummings that's for sure, where would we be in the league with out his goals, we need more help from other players on the pitch.
he did.

WeeRussell
26-09-2016, 11:44 AM
Looking at last seasons stats from the EPL the main guys are averaging between 27-35% conversion rate, yes it's a different level of football but it still shows that the top strikers in any league are scoring more goals with the chances given. I said in another post that Jason should be scoring 30+ goals in this league and the fact that he's only scored 21 & 25 the last 2 seasons, proves he's not scoring enough and neither in anyone else. We have moaned this last 2 seasons about not scoring enough and not converting the many chances made, that problem still occurs, why can't real life be like Football Manager where Jason scored 38 goals in the league :greengrin

Jeezo - really??!

I think the fact that his record for those two seasons was 1 in every 2 at worst, he was top scorer in one season and second in the other (in both of which we weren't the 'best' team in the league), and the fact he's currently top scorer this season proves he probably is doing his job!

It's amazing how a couple of poor results can bring out some unusual opinions! First league game Jason doesn't score in, and some suggest he needs dropped for not scoring enough goals :confused: His overall contribution is improving all the time and his goal scoring is showing no signs of drying up.

I also don't get this argument that he's become a player who scores wonder goals but misses the tap-ins. He is a box-striker who will miss chances but continue to get on the end of them until he scores.

If only he had the know-how to occupy so many defenders and provide the link-up play that Holt apparently does :rolleyes: (not intended as a cheap-dig at Holt who I hope starts to bang in a few goals for us - but frustrating that so many treat this boy as the messiah at such an early stage, yet we're happy to stick the boot in to our main source of goals for no reason!)

patlowe
26-09-2016, 11:58 AM
I don't think Cummings not scoring enough is the problem; the problem is a lack of goals from elsewhere in the team. Cummings has contributed hugely so far and it needs to be stressed that this is the first league game in which he hasn't scored - hardly a crisis!

I think Lennon's point (although he probably could have been fairer to JC) is more about the players finding other ways to score which don't rely on a young raw talent scoring every chance, every week. Lennon needs to find a way of getting goals from Holt and midfielders in better attacking positions to score. Someone mentioned Rangers and Hearts when they won the league - neither of those won the league because they had a scorer of Cumming's consistency; what they had was a lot of goals from other areas of the team (Holt, Wallace, Tavernier, Walker, Nicholson etc).

WeeRussell
26-09-2016, 12:02 PM
I don't think Cummings not scoring enough is the problem; the problem is a lack of goals from elsewhere in the team. Cummings has contributed hugely so far and it needs to be stressed that this is the first league game in which he hasn't scored - hardly a crisis!

I think Lennon's point (although he probably could have been fairer to JC) is more about the players finding other ways to score which don't rely on a young raw talent scoring every chance, every week. Lennon needs to find a way of getting goals from Holt and midfielders in better attacking positions to score. Someone mentioned Rangers and Hearts when they won the league - neither of those won the league because they had a scorer of Cumming's consistency; what they had was a lot of goals from other areas of the team (Holt, Wallace, Tavernier, Walker, Nicholson etc).

I agree with much of what you are saying, though would point out that fat Waghorn's goals, sorry.. 'Waggy'... were a big factor in their title win. He was top scorer last season (despite being out for around a month? towards the end of it) with 20 goals I think. Granted, goals from their full backs and other areas played a large part also as you say.

Ozyhibby
26-09-2016, 01:54 PM
I agree with much of what you are saying, though would point out that fat Waghorn's goals, sorry.. 'Waggy'... were a big factor in their title win. He was top scorer last season (despite being out for around a month? towards the end of it) with 20 goals I think. Granted, goals from their full backs and other areas played a large part also as you say.

Half Waghorns goals were from Pens. I think getting about 20 goals from their full backs was a bigger factor. I think we got about 2 in comparison.
I don't think Cummings is the problem here. I think it's down to the rest of the team to start gambling a bit with shooting and making runs.
Our summer transfer business is not looking that impressive at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Blaster
26-09-2016, 01:58 PM
Half Waghorns goals were from Pens. I think getting about 20 goals from their full backs was a bigger factor. I think we got about 2 in comparison.
I don't think Cummings is the problem here. I think it's down to the rest of the team to start gambling a bit with shooting and making runs.
Our summer transfer business is not looking that impressive at this stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who / what were you expecting

We've got 5 wins, a draw and a defeat from our 7 games. Keep that return going throughout the season and we'll win the league comfortably

What's the panic?

snooky
26-09-2016, 02:27 PM
McCoist scored 331 goals in his career.
That's my point. Had he scored with all the easy chances he missed, the Sally tally would have been incredible.

Iain G
26-09-2016, 02:38 PM
Keatings will score us goals in this league if given a run of games, if Lennon can work out how to get him, Holt and Cummings playing together.

Big L
26-09-2016, 03:12 PM
Last season rangers had Holt, Wallace, Waghorn Tavernier and Miller all scoring goals on a regular basis and 1 or 2 from other players, and that's our problem! We rely on JC! Our midfielders don't get in the box nearly enough, they hit balls from distance which is no good against packed defences. They need to be making runs in to the box, I don't think I've seen Fyvie, Barclays or McGeough have a pop at goal.

Smartie
26-09-2016, 03:33 PM
Last season rangers had Holt, Wallace, Waghorn Tavernier and Miller all scoring goals on a regular basis and 1 or 2 from other players, and that's our problem! We rely on JC! Our midfielders don't get in the box nearly enough, they hit balls from distance which is no good against packed defences. They need to be making runs in to the box, I don't think I've seen Fyvie, Barclays or McGeough have a pop at goal.

They also ran at backtracking defenders at pace.

You'll always get more penalties running at defenders at pace than wafting the ball about 40 yards from goal.

It's easy to dismiss the number of penalties they got but their style of play lent itself to a team getting a lot of penalties.

ancient hibee
26-09-2016, 04:15 PM
Club
Season
League
Scottish Cup
League Cup
Other
Total


App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals
App
Goals


Hibernian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernian_F.C.)
2013–14 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%9314_Hibernian_F.C._season)
16
0
0
0
0
0
2
2
18
2


2014–15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
4
1
3
1
2
1
42
21


2015–16 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_Hibernian_F.C._season)
33
18
5
2
6
4
5
1
49
25


2016–17 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016%E2%80%9317_Hibernian_F.C._season)
5
7
0
0
1
0
2
0
8
7


Career total
87
43
9
3
10
5
11
4
117
55




Not a lot of difference if any from 14-15 to 15-16, his game may have improved but his strike rate is the same.


Edit, move the numbers 1 space to the left, copy abd paste doesn't always come out the way you want it.


So so he was scoring a goal every two games and now he's nearly a goal a game.A big improvement yes?

Keith_M
26-09-2016, 04:57 PM
McCoist scored 331 goals in his career.


McCoist signed for Rangers at 21 years old (same age Jason is now). Up to that point, he had played four seasons and scored 30 goals.

At the same age, Jason has now played three full seasons and scored 44 goals.


Most of Jason's goals have been scored in the Scottish second tier. Most of McCoist's goals (22 from 30) were also scored in the second tier.


If anybody wants to make a real comparison with McCoist, Jason is measuring up pretty well so far.

StevieCowan
26-09-2016, 04:59 PM
Remember it was Neil Lennon and the Player Recruitment team that decided that we had enough firepower in Holt, Cummings, Keatings and Graham. That now looks a bad decision and I would hope that we have a mobile centre forward in mind that can hit the ground running in January..

Keith_M
26-09-2016, 05:39 PM
Remember it was Neil Lennon and the Player Recruitment team that decided that we had enough firepower in Holt, Cummings, Keatings and Graham. That now looks a bad decision and I would hope that we have a mobile centre forward in mind that can hit the ground running in January..


Have you still got your boots, Stevie?


:greengrin



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-CSNjjIcAA8KDi.jpg

Davy Mac
26-09-2016, 06:07 PM
Classic managerial tactic in all walks of life, focus on the one that regularly delivers because he believes JC has the ability/talent to give even more than he is already doing whilst I'm not sure if he believes the other strikers can give more.

Also, IMO the hardest part of football is creating a chance and for me that's were the real issue is, oh for a 'wee' Latapy somebody with a bit of magic or at least a change of tactic.

emerald green
26-09-2016, 06:14 PM
Arthur Duncan scored 73 goals for Hibs, playing as a winger. Nijinski of course had tremendous pace, and he wasn't playing in a lower division either.

The players Hibs have at the moment are not in that class unfortunately, but the players they do have are going to have to contribute more goals to make sure Hibs win the Championship this season.

J-C
26-09-2016, 06:15 PM
Jeezo - really??!

I think the fact that his record for those two seasons was 1 in every 2 at worst, he was top scorer in one season and second in the other (in both of which we weren't the 'best' team in the league), and the fact he's currently top scorer this season proves he probably is doing his job!

It's amazing how a couple of poor results can bring out some unusual opinions! First league game Jason doesn't score in, and some suggest he needs dropped for not scoring enough goals :confused: His overall contribution is improving all the time and his goal scoring is showing no signs of drying up.

I also don't get this argument that he's become a player who scores wonder goals but misses the tap-ins. He is a box-striker who will miss chances but continue to get on the end of them until he scores.

If only he had the know-how to occupy so many defenders and provide the link-up play that Holt apparently does :rolleyes: (not intended as a cheap-dig at Holt who I hope starts to bang in a few goals for us - but frustrating that so many treat this boy as the messiah at such an early stage, yet we're happy to stick the boot in to our main source of goals for no reason!)


21 and 25 in total but just 18 in each season in the league, someone mentioned 19% conversion rate and I posted the conversion rates for players in the EPL, yes we're not EPL but at this level he needs to be converting a lot more than 1 in 5 of all chances, 18 goals should be nigh on 30 for this league.

Looking back to Griffiths 2nd season with us at a similar age to Jason, Leigh scored 28 in 42 games 1,5 goals per game, with Celtic already he's scored 74 in 115 games. The biggest difference in the two players are their all round game play, Jason has been getting better but still needs to improve his overall game, not just the goals and that was a point made by Lennon.

"He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better."

ancient hibee
26-09-2016, 07:49 PM
21 and 25 in total but just 18 in each season in the league, someone mentioned 19% conversion rate and I posted the conversion rates for players in the EPL, yes we're not EPL but at this level he needs to be converting a lot more than 1 in 5 of all chances, 18 goals should be nigh on 30 for this league.

Looking back to Griffiths 2nd season with us at a similar age to Jason, Leigh scored 28 in 42 games 1,5 goals per game, with Celtic already he's scored 74 in 115 games. The biggest difference in the two players are their all round game play, Jason has been getting better but still needs to improve his overall game, not just the goals and that was a point made by Lennon.

"He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better."
28 goals in 42 games may be many things but they're not 1.5 goals per game as you seem to think:greengrin
If Jason continues as he's doing he would score around 36 goals in 42 games ,far better than Griffiths so to be honest I don't understand the comparison that you're trying to make.

Stevie Reid
26-09-2016, 09:20 PM
21 and 25 in total but just 18 in each season in the league, someone mentioned 19% conversion rate and I posted the conversion rates for players in the EPL, yes we're not EPL but at this level he needs to be converting a lot more than 1 in 5 of all chances, 18 goals should be nigh on 30 for this league.

Looking back to Griffiths 2nd season with us at a similar age to Jason, Leigh scored 28 in 42 games 1,5 goals per game, with Celtic already he's scored 74 in 115 games. The biggest difference in the two players are their all round game play, Jason has been getting better but still needs to improve his overall game, not just the goals and that was a point made by Lennon.

"He is a good goalscorer but, if he isn’t scoring goals, then he isn’t bringing much to the team at the minute. He needs to do better."

Been looking into the Cummings/Griffiths comparison - there is almost exactly 5 years between them in terms of age. Jason has not long turned 21, Griffiths was 20 and a half when he left Dundee.

Jason overall until now: -

54 goals in all competitions 117 apps

Griffiths overall from first team breakthrough at Livi to leaving Dundee at 20: -

53 goals in all competitions 108 apps

Championship records compared

Jason: -

44 in 71 Championship games

0.62 goals per game

Leigh: -

43 in 97 First Division games

0.44 goals per game

Now I appreciate that Griffiths played around half of those games for Livi, who were a mid table team around that time, but he also played in the Dundee team that spent a large amount of money for that league before going into administration again. All in all, Jason is doing very well, especially for someone with only two full seasons of professional football under his belt (not to mention the situation he was first thrown into with us, going 16 games before he scored for us, AND missing the penalty that confirmed our relegation).

I don't know where the idea that he 'should' be scoring 30 league goals comes from - especially in a 36 game league season. I've had a look back through the last 15 years or so in this league, and the likes of Dobbie and Adam Rooney managed 24, Stevie May the most with 25.

We'll see what Jason can do this year. But there's no doubt that the need for others to score more often is of more importance than the need for Jason to convert more of his chances. He has been remarkably consistent over the last two years, and his goals are fundamental to us - they need to be augmented by others chipping in.

Captain Trips
26-09-2016, 11:23 PM
JC has a great scoring record. We should have a midfielder or 2 getting comfortably into double figures.

J-C
26-09-2016, 11:42 PM
28 goals in 42 games may be many things but they're not 1.5 goals per game as you seem to think:greengrin
If Jason continues as he's doing he would score around 36 goals in 42 games ,far better than Griffiths so to be honest I don't understand the comparison that you're trying to make.


You are right, it would help if I used a calculator better, it's 0.7 goals per game :greengrin divided the wrong way round.

J-C
26-09-2016, 11:54 PM
Been looking into the Cummings/Griffiths comparison - there is almost exactly 5 years between them in terms of age. Jason has not long turned 21, Griffiths was 20 and a half when he left Dundee.

Jason overall until now: -

54 goals in all competitions 117 apps

Griffiths overall from first team breakthrough at Livi to leaving Dundee at 20: -

53 goals in all competitions 108 apps

Championship records compared

Jason: -

44 in 71 Championship games

0.62 goals per game

Leigh: -

43 in 97 First Division games

0.44 goals per game

Now I appreciate that Griffiths played around half of those games for Livi, who were a mid table team around that time, but he also played in the Dundee team that spent a large amount of money for that league before going into administration again. All in all, Jason is doing very well, especially for someone with only two full seasons of professional football under his belt (not to mention the situation he was first thrown into with us, going 16 games before he scored for us, AND missing the penalty that confirmed our relegation).

I don't know where the idea that he 'should' be scoring 30 league goals comes from - especially in a 36 game league season. I've had a look back through the last 15 years or so in this league, and the likes of Dobbie and Adam Rooney managed 24, Stevie May the most with 25.

We'll see what Jason can do this year. But there's no doubt that the need for others to score more often is of more importance than the need for Jason to convert more of his chances. He has been remarkably consistent over the last two years, and his goals are fundamental to us - they need to be augmented by others chipping in.

Jason has managed 18 league goals in each of the past 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure he could and should be doing better than 0.5 goals a game, it's been said we need more goals from others and not just Jason but even his manager has noticed that without his goals he sometimes offers very little to the team and that is something Jason has to work hard on.

My point about Griffiths was he was similar to Jason as the same age but that 2nd season with us it all seemed to click into place and he's never looked back.

Stevie Reid
27-09-2016, 01:09 PM
Jason has managed 18 league goals in each of the past 2 seasons, I'm pretty sure he could and should be doing better than 0.5 goals a game, it's been said we need more goals from others and not just Jason but even his manager has noticed that without his goals he sometimes offers very little to the team and that is something Jason has to work hard on.

My point about Griffiths was he was similar to Jason as the same age but that 2nd season with us it all seemed to click into place and he's never looked back.

I do appreciate the latter point JC, was just really curious to compare their careers thus far. One thing that Jason is well behind on is his two footedness - Leigh prefers his left but has no qualms about hitting with his right, and can still strike a ball very well with it.

I don't think that there's any doubt that Jason could score more, and I'm confident that his chance conversion ratio will improve as time goes on. Though I think that we shouldn't be too critical of someone who is not yet two months past his 21st birthday for scoring 0.5 goals per game over two full seasons, those are great stats - he scores consistently, and has never really had a dry spell since he first started scoring for us, and that is vitally important.

The good thing about Jason is that he doesn't ever seem to let his head go down, even after missing a sitter, and will still no doubt find himself on the end of another chance before long - whilst that in itself is a virtue for Jason, my mates at the game have often talked (particularly last season under Stubbs) about how that 'another one will come along' mentality probably hinders us as a team. Other teams know that chances are at a premium, and seem to be more clinical on that basis.

I am surprised at Lennon's comments re: Jason's all round game - I thought, as did everyone around me at ER, that his all round play had improved markedly this season. It doesn't mean he won't ever have a bad game though. As I said before (and many others have pointed out) the need for others to start scoring more regularly is our greatest at the moment.

familyman
27-09-2016, 01:13 PM
Slate our only goalscorer (who's very young) aye very good Lennon.
I could say buy a decent centre forward ,but we tried that with James Collins, no Jason has still to develop and while he lacks close control of the ball JUST NOW, he can work on that I am sure, meantime though the lack of Henderson, Stokes and Scot Allan means a much less resourced team as far as threading accurate passes through to the front men..we have the maginificant John McGinn and sometimes Fraser F, but we are still light in those areas ,together with grim passing from the left we are failing to score at an incredible level really given the chances being made...we need the others to step up and it is harsh on Jason alone to carry the can for this long standing problem..The attempt to loft high balls only works if they are accurate and of course they are fairly easy to defend against for most teams. with tall defenders .so need more options....but we can start with far more :flag: accurate passing and close control techniques...Jason will get it right ,but young players need the time and support as well as the odd reminder from management!!!

JDHibs
27-09-2016, 01:16 PM
I could say buy a decent centre forward ,but we tried that with James Collins, no Jason has still to develop and while he lacks close control of the ball JUST NOW, he can work on that I am sure, meantime though the lack of Henderson, Stokes and Scot Allan means a much less resourced team as far as threading accurate passes through to the front men..we have the maginificant John McGinn and sometimes Fraser F, but we are still light in those areas ,together with grim passing from the left we are failing to score at an incredible level really given the chances being made...we need the others to step up and it is harsh on Jason alone to carry the can for this long standing problem..The attempt to loft high balls only works if they are accurate and of course they are fairly easy to defend against for most teams. with tall defenders .so need more options....but we can start with far more :flag: accurate passing and close control techniques...Jason will get it right ,but young players need the time and support as well as the odd reminder from management!!!

That big paragraph and you failed to mention Shinnie nor McGeough (Given his fitness is always a concern)...

Stevie Reid
27-09-2016, 04:09 PM
That's my point. Had he scored with all the easy chances he missed, the Sally tally would have been incredible.

Fair enough. I just thought it strange you referring to a guy who scored 331 career goals as a terrible goalscorer.


McCoist signed for Rangers at 21 years old (same age Jason is now). Up to that point, he had played four seasons and scored 30 goals.

At the same age, Jason has now played three full seasons and scored 44 goals.


Most of Jason's goals have been scored in the Scottish second tier. Most of McCoist's goals (22 from 30) were also scored in the second tier.


If anybody wants to make a real comparison with McCoist, Jason is measuring up pretty well so far.

I only mentioned McCoist at first for the reason above, but that is interesting to note.