The future of the Labour Party

[lucky]

Ian Murray is a successful MP. He gets elected when his party is not popular but he gets the vote and clearly his constituency believes in him. I’ve known him for years and wouldn’t say we are in the same wing of the Labour party. He has strong views on independence and believes labour should should be a centralist party. I believe the fact he was involved in FOH makes many on here hate him. He did tell me once that being involved saving Hearts was an honour that no fan would turn down for their club. His political view that the union is the best way forward for the U.K. is out of sink with the polls at this time. I believe his views and the people around him are wrong about Scotland’s future. I can’t stand the fact that anyone denies the right of the people to decide. When you ignore democracy it leads to anarchy as we’ve have seen by the actions of the far right in the USA

[Ozyhibby]

Ian Murray is a successful MP. He gets elected when his party is not popular but he gets the vote and clearly his constituency believes in him. I’ve known him for years and wouldn’t say we are in the same wing of the Labour party. He has strong views on independence and believes labour should should be a centralist party. I believe the fact he was involved in FOH makes many on here hate him. He did tell me once that being involved saving Hearts was an honour that no fan would turn down for their club. His political view that the union is the best way forward for the U.K. is out of sink with the polls at this time. I believe his views and the people around him are wrong about Scotland’s future. I can’t stand the fact that anyone denies the right of the people to decide. When you ignore democracy it leads to anarchy as we’ve have seen by the actions of the far right in the USA

Don’t worry, I think that deep down unionists know they won’t be able to suspend democracy in Scotland and there will be a referendum.
Scottish politics won’t be able to move forward without it. And for Labour there is no hope for recovery until it happens.


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[Keith_M]

Ian Murray is a successful MP. He gets elected when his party is not popular but he gets the vote and clearly his constituency believes in him. I’ve known him for years and wouldn’t say we are in the same wing of the Labour party. He has strong views on independence and believes labour should should be a centralist party. I believe the fact he was involved in FOH makes many on here hate him. He did tell me once that being involved saving Hearts was an honour that no fan would turn down for their club. His political view that the union is the best way forward for the U.K. is out of sink with the polls at this time. I believe his views and the people around him are wrong about Scotland’s future. I can’t stand the fact that anyone denies the right of the people to decide. When you ignore democracy it leads to anarchy as we’ve have seen by the actions of the far right in the USA



That's a very balanced view, nice to see.

Far be it from me to be seen to be supporting a unionist, but my opinion is that the guy is entitled to his view on that, even if I don't agree.

[G B Young]

Ian Murray is a successful MP. He gets elected when his party is not popular but he gets the vote and clearly his constituency believes in him. I’ve known him for years and wouldn’t say we are in the same wing of the Labour party. He has strong views on independence and believes labour should should be a centralist party. I believe the fact he was involved in FOH makes many on here hate him. He did tell me once that being involved saving Hearts was an honour that no fan would turn down for their club. His political view that the union is the best way forward for the U.K. is out of sink with the polls at this time. I believe his views and the people around him are wrong about Scotland’s future. I can’t stand the fact that anyone denies the right of the people to decide. When you ignore democracy it leads to anarchy as we’ve have seen by the actions of the far right in the USA

That's a fair and balanced post. I can't say I know enough about the guy to form a personal opinion but it just seems to me that some are writing him off as an erse simply because his views buck the prevailing trend on here when it comes to independence.

[Ozyhibby]

That's a fair and balanced post. I can't say I know enough about the guy to form a personal opinion but it just seems to me that some are writing him off as an erse simply because his views buck the prevailing trend on here when it comes to independence.

To be fair, the views on here just mirror the prevailing trend in the country just now.


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210116/a54397779169606caeb81751b8d8ebb2.jpg


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[ronaldo7]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210116/a54397779169606caeb81751b8d8ebb2.jpg


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They're not holding an election during a pandemic surely.

[Moulin Yarns]

They're not holding an election during a pandemic surely.

But remember, there are so few members they could all fit in a mini. 😉

But then again, car sharing is banned

[Ozyhibby]

They're not holding an election during a pandemic surely.

Probably not. They’ll probably do what the Tories did and wait on a message from London to see who their new leader is.


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[One Day Soon]

I thought schools and nurseries were closed?

[ronaldo7]

I thought schools and nurseries were closed?

You ok hun?

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/16/anas-sarwar-ill-rebuild-labour-party-in-scotland?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true

Sarwar throws his hat in the ring. Says Labour need to start listening to voters in Scotland and starts that by telling us we need to stop talking about independence. [emoji23]


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[lucky]

You expect him to tell the party and country what his priorities are and if that includes not wanting another referendum then he’s correct to do so. From what I’m hearing he’s the only candidate unless Lennon can convince more MSPs onboard.
Anas is no Hibbie but has attended SLP fundraisers at ER where he forced the price of hospitality north.

[Ozyhibby]

You expect him to tell the party and country what his priorities are and if that includes not wanting another referendum then he’s correct to do so. From what I’m hearing he’s the only candidate unless Lennon can convince more MSPs onboard.
Anas is no Hibbie but has attended SLP fundraisers at ER where he forced the price of hospitality north.

I’m pretty sure he will be the only candidate. The word is out that Starmer wants a centrist. They’ll do what they are told. They would not have moved on Leonard until they had their new guy lined up.


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[Hibbyradge]

I’m pretty sure he will be the only candidate. The word is out that Starmer wants a centrist. They’ll do what they are told. They would not have moved on Leonard until they had their new guy lined up.


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Where is the word out?

Is there anyone in the frame who isn't a centrist?

[Ozyhibby]

Where is the word out?

Is there anyone in the frame who isn't a centrist?

I think he’ll be the only candidate and will have the job by Tuesday night.


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[marinello59]

I think he’ll be the only candidate and will have the job by Tuesday night.


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That’s when nominations close so it’s possible. That’s doesn’t mean he has been imposed on the membership though, I wouldn’t blame anybody for being unwilling to put themselves forward for the next electoral kicking.

[lucky]

I’m pretty sure he will be the only candidate. The word is out that Starmer wants a centrist. They’ll do what they are told. They would not have moved on Leonard until they had their new guy lined up.


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You seem to have the inside track on the SLP, any chance you could divulge your sources? Stammer wants a successful SLP as it is the only way he’ll become PM. As for a future leader up here he’s not involved and whilst many outside Scottish Labour like to play on the branch office the reality is the party is already independent with a separate rule book. Personally I’d go further and just have a SLP and we would be a sister party to the GB one but that clearly is not on agenda of the party leadership.

[hibsbollah]

You seem to have the inside track on the SLP, any chance you could divulge your sources? Stammer wants a successful SLP as it is the only way he’ll become PM. As for a future leader up here he’s not involved and whilst many outside Scottish Labour like to play on the branch office the reality is the party is already independent with a separate rule book. Personally I’d go further and just have a SLP and we would be a sister party to the GB one but that clearly is not on agenda of the party leadership.

Do you mean in the sense of a SDLP/U.K. Labour type division, to the point where they have different policies on a range of issues and are only bonded by being in the same group in the European Parliament (whoops that’s not happening now but you know what I mean)

[BroxburnHibee]

Similar situation with me, although I did my two years in Broomhouse.
Missed out on voting when I was able, due to a bit of poll tax dodging, but Edinburgh West was safe Tory territory (Lord Douglas-Hamilton for as long as I could remember) so would have been a wasted vote anyway.

Westerhailes fell into Rifkinds constituency. Hard to believe a Tory being responsible for that area but since it covered Currie/Balerno not so hard.

Still even they were sick of him by '97.

Boy I loved that night.

[weecounty hibby]

You seem to have the inside track on the SLP, any chance you could divulge your sources? Stammer wants a successful SLP as it is the only way he’ll become PM. As for a future leader up here he’s not involved and whilst many outside Scottish Labour like to play on the branch office the reality is the party is already independent with a separate rule book. Personally I’d go further and just have a SLP and we would be a sister party to the GB one but that clearly is not on agenda of the party leadership.
Your wrong in what you say about the only way to be PM is a strong SLP. Even with a full compliment of Scottish MPs being returned as Labour the Tories would still have an 80+ majority. Labour has as big problems in England as they do here sadly.

[Colr]

Westerhailes fell into Rifkinds constituency. Hard to believe a Tory being responsible for that area but since it covered Currie/Balerno not so hard.

Still even they were sick of him by '97.

Boy I loved that night.

Was my local MP. I got door stepped by him during an election campaign when I was about 18.

He spoke well and we had a good conversation on some of the political issues of the day. Seemed like a very intelligent, respectful bloke.

All the more credit seeing as I was standing there sporting a pink mohawk haircut and Souixsie and the Banshees t shirt.

[Pretty Boy]

Westerhailes fell into Rifkinds constituency. Hard to believe a Tory being responsible for that area but since it covered Currie/Balerno not so hard.

Still even they were sick of him by '97.

Boy I loved that night.

I can remember Rifkind being my local MP when growing up. The old Edinburgh Pentlands. It was a strange constituency because it covered the likes of Oxgangs and Wester Hailes but then also had Colinton, Fairmilehead and Craiglockahrt. The seat continues in the Scottish Parliament and was originally won by Labour (Iain Gray) but was then won by the Tories in 2003 and 2007. The SNP took it in 2011 but the Tories still run them fairly close.

Back to Rifkind. He was another who held his seat for a long time largely on the strength of being a good constituency MP. He took the seat in 1974 and held it until 1997. He was a regular at our primary school Christmas fayre and opened it every year that I can remember. His local surgery was well advertised and though his office was latterly in Colinton village he met constituents regularly in the community centres of Oxgangs and Firrhill. His replacement was Lynda Clark who was far more invisible locally and Rifkind very nearly overturned the result in 2001, he ate into Clark's majority massively and it ended up being about 1500 votes.

I'm most certainly not defending Malcolm Rifkind ideologically but I think, similar to Ian Murray, there is a lesson for all aspiring politicians that looking after your constituency and being diligent locally will take you a long way.

[Peevemor]

I can remember Rifkind being my local MP when growing up. The old Edinburgh Pentlands. It was a strange constituency because it covered the likes of Oxgangs and Wester Hailes but then also had Colinton, Fairmilehead and Craiglockahrt. The seat continues in the Scottish Parliament and was originally won by Labour (Iain Gray) but was then won by the Tories in 2003 and 2007. The SNP took it in 2011 but the Tories still run them fairly close.

Back to Rifkind. He was another who held his seat for a long time largely on the strength of being a good constituency MP. He took the seat in 1974 and held it until 1997. He was a regular at our primary school Christmas fayre and opened it every year that I can remember. His local surgery was well advertised and though his office was latterly in Colinton village he met constituents regularly in the community centres of Oxgangs and Firrhill. His replacement was Lynda Clark who was far more invisible locally and Rifkind very nearly overturned the result in 2001, he ate into Clark's majority massively and it ended up being about 1500 votes.

I'm most certainly not defending Malcolm Rifkind ideologically but I think, similar to Ian Murray, there is a lesson for all aspiring politicians that looking after your constituency and being diligent locally will take you a long way.Correct. Rifkind was an excellent constituancy MP. I remember arriving home one Monday night after playing football with my mates to find an armed bodyguard in my folks' lobby. At the time Rifkind was defence secretary and he was visiting my mum who was chairman (woman/person?) of the community council.

[Hiber-nation]

Correct. Rifkind was an excellent constituancy MP. I remember arriving home one Monday night after playing football with my mates to find an armed bodyguard in my folks' lobby. At the time Rifkind was defence secretary and he was visiting my mum who was chairman (woman/person?) of the community council.

Ah Riffers. When I worked in the Scottish Office and he was Secretary of State for Scotland I was trying to dial the Dover House (our London Office) mailroom and somehow managed to dial his personal number instead. When I asked "erm...is that the mailroom" he was less than chuffed!

[Santa Cruz]

Ah Riffers. When I worked in the Scottish Office and he was Secretary of State for Scotland I was trying to dial the Dover House (our London Office) mailroom and somehow managed to dial his personal number instead. When I asked "erm...is that the mailroom" he was less than chuffed!

I worked there too at the time, he was well thought off in comparison to some of his colleagues. I never personally had any dealings with him, he had a reputation for being kind and decent, as did Lord James, he always let the ladies go before him in the canteen queue and would speak away.

[Hiber-nation]

I worked there too at the time, he was well thought off in comparison to some of his colleagues. I never personally had any dealings with him, he had a reputation for being kind and decent, as did Lord James, he always let the ladies go before him in the canteen queue and would speak away.

Yeah Lord James was a total gent - as opposed to a certain Michael Forsyth who was a real nasty piece of work.

Just realised this is the Labour thread, better get back on track!

[G B Young]

I can remember Rifkind being my local MP when growing up. The old Edinburgh Pentlands. It was a strange constituency because it covered the likes of Oxgangs and Wester Hailes but then also had Colinton, Fairmilehead and Craiglockahrt. The seat continues in the Scottish Parliament and was originally won by Labour (Iain Gray) but was then won by the Tories in 2003 and 2007. The SNP took it in 2011 but the Tories still run them fairly close.

Back to Rifkind. He was another who held his seat for a long time largely on the strength of being a good constituency MP. He took the seat in 1974 and held it until 1997. He was a regular at our primary school Christmas fayre and opened it every year that I can remember. His local surgery was well advertised and though his office was latterly in Colinton village he met constituents regularly in the community centres of Oxgangs and Firrhill. His replacement was Lynda Clark who was far more invisible locally and Rifkind very nearly overturned the result in 2001, he ate into Clark's majority massively and it ended up being about 1500 votes.

I'm most certainly not defending Malcolm Rifkind ideologically but I think, similar to Ian Murray, there is a lesson for all aspiring politicians that looking after your constituency and being diligent locally will take you a long way.

Yep, used to have relatives in Fairmilehead who always spoke highly of him as their local MP.

I remember seeing him sitting in the main stand at Easter Road many years ago in the company of his old pal, the late Brian Meek (well kent journo and politician of yesteryear - and a staunch Hibby).

[Santa Cruz]

Yeah Lord James was a total gent - as opposed to a certain Michael Forsyth who was a real nasty piece of work.

Just realised this is the Labour thread, better get back on track!

Aye, I have a quality story about how someone got Forsyth back for his nasty nature the day after they lost the election in '97. On topic the facilities team at VQ had little patience for John Reid and the chauffer's even less time for Wendy Alexander.

[G B Young]

That’s when nominations close so it’s possible. That’s doesn’t mean he has been imposed on the membership though, I wouldn’t blame anybody for being unwilling to put themselves forward for the next electoral kicking.

If he does get the job he can't be any more anonymous or ineffective than Leonard surely? Tough job, but based on the little I've seen/heard from him I think he could be quite a positive appointment.

[Peevemor]

Ah Riffers. When I worked in the Scottish Office and he was Secretary of State for Scotland I was trying to dial the Dover House (our London Office) mailroom and somehow managed to dial his personal number instead. When I asked "erm...is that the mailroom" he was less than chuffed!There was a young architect from Magherafelt who worked with us in the early-mid 90s. She was out for a walk in Duddingston one Sunday afternoon when she was huckled by some serious looking "police" and was questioned for 6 hours at St Leonards. It turned out she'd been unwittingly taking photos of Rifkind's house.

[lapsedhibee]

There was a young architect from Magherafelt

Was absolutely 100% certain that was going to be a limerick. :boo hoo:

[Jack]

I worked there too at the time, he was well thought off in comparison to some of his colleagues. I never personally had any dealings with him, he had a reputation for being kind and decent, as did Lord James, he always let the ladies go before him in the canteen queue and would speak away.

Lord James could have a whole thread to himself for all his perfect manners but otherwise being as thick as your grannys mince.

[Santa Cruz]

Lord James could have a whole thread to himself for all his perfect manners but otherwise being as thick as your grannys mince.

Aww, never had any work dealings with him, just stood next to him in a queue.

[Santa Cruz]

There was a young architect from Magherafelt who worked with us in the early-mid 90s. She was out for a walk in Duddingston one Sunday afternoon when she was huckled by some serious looking "police" and was questioned for 6 hours at St Leonards. It turned out she'd been unwittingly taking photos of Rifkind's house.

Security risks were taken really seriously due to IRA threats. We had a number of evacuations from central buildings due to bomb threats.

[Moulin Yarns]

There was a young architect from Magherafelt who worked with us in the early-mid 90s. She was out for a walk in Duddingston one Sunday afternoon when she was huckled by some serious looking "police" and was questioned for 6 hours at St Leonards. It turned out she'd been unwittingly taking photos of Rifkind's house.

Who did you work for back then? I was at Ross-Smith and Jamieson, then percy Johnson Marshall.

[CloudSquall]

If Ana's isn't willing to change the strategy on independence it's game over before it has begun.

[Peevemor]

Who did you work for back then? I was at Ross-Smith and Jamieson, then percy Johnson Marshall.Adam Dudley Architects. We were only wee (5/6 in total).

[Moulin Yarns]

Adam Dudley Architects. We were only wee (5/6 in total).

Ross-Smith stood in Pentlands against Rifkind as a Liberal. Joke was he didn't know the Constituency boundaries and ended up knocking doors in the next Constituency.

[stokesmessiah]

If Ana's isn't willing to change the strategy on independence it's game over before it has begun.

Correct.

[Ozyhibby]

If Ana's isn't willing to change the strategy on independence it's game over before it has begun.

It’s weird they can’t see it? The strategy just now appears for Scotland to cease being a democracy? Drumming up support for that is almost impossible.


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[marinello59]

If Ana's isn't willing to change the strategy on independence it's game over before it has begun.

Agreed. They can oppose independence but they can’t oppose a referendum.

[Hibbyradge]

Was absolutely 100% certain that was going to be a limerick. :boo hoo:

I just read it and thought the same.

I'll have a go;

There was a young architect from Magherafelt
For six hours the police interviewed the Celt
Did she know at the time
It was nearly a crime
To photo the home of a Tory Welt

[CropleyWasGod]

Lord James could have a whole thread to himself for all his perfect manners but otherwise being as thick as your grannys mince.

He managed to get a (very minor) law changed as the result of an experience I had as a teenager. I have never voted Tory, but always respected him for doing what he was elected to do, ie support his constituents.

[greenlex]

He managed to get a (very minor) law changed as the result of an experience I had as a teenager. I have never voted Tory, but always respected him for doing what he was elected to do, ie support his constituents.
Sakes Crops. You can’t just leave us hanging.:greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

Sakes Crops. You can’t just leave us hanging.:greengrin

It's really not that interesting 😂

[Pretty Boy]

Agreed. They can oppose independence but they can’t oppose a referendum.

I think that's a tricky sell for Labour.

In that scenario they lose votes to the Tories among hardcore supporters of the union and gain very little back from those who support independence. I could pick all sorts of holes in the SNPs left wing credentials but there is little doubt they have a lot of that centre left vote sewn up in Scotland. Among those who support either a 2nd referendum or independence they have always been the natural home, that desire often overriding other ideological considerations.

I'd argue Labour can't continue on their current path (the 'we weren't unionist enough' comment after the last election still rankles) but I think all the other paths are fraught with problems for them as well. I suppose the least problematic might be a neutral stance on another referendum whilst setting out a progressive social democratic alternative for Scotland both in and out of the Union. I can't see that happening somehow. I find it hard to have a lot of sympathy despite still viewing Labour as something of a natural home. They have backed themselves into this corner, the SNP have ruthlessly exploited every mistake they have made and it's a near impossible road back.

[Ozyhibby]

I think that's a tricky sell for Labour.

In that scenario they lose votes to the Tories among hardcore supporters of the union and gain very little back from those who support independence. I could pick all sorts of holes in the SNPs left wing credentials but there is little doubt they have a lot of that centre left vote sewn up in Scotland. Among those who support either a 2nd referendum or independence they have always been the natural home, that desire often overriding other ideological considerations.

I'd argue Labour can't continue on their current path (the 'we weren't unionist enough' comment after the last election still rankles) but I think all the other paths are fraught with problems for them as well. I suppose the least problematic might be a neutral stance on another referendum whilst setting out a progressive social democratic alternative for Scotland both in and out of the Union. I can't see that happening somehow. I find it hard to have a lot of sympathy despite still viewing Labour as something of a natural home. They have backed themselves into this corner, the SNP have ruthlessly exploited every mistake they have made and it's a near impossible road back.

I agree there are no easy paths for Labour but one thing we do know is that the current path leads only to failure. And it doesn’t matter who the leader is.
It looks like they are going to just carry on with the current policy and hope things change by magic. If it was me, I’d be looking to change it somehow in the hope that it starts to change people’s perceptions.


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[McD]

I agree there are no easy paths for Labour but one thing we do know is that the current path leads only to failure. And it doesn’t matter who the leader is.
It looks like they are going to just carry on with the current policy and hope things change by magic. If it was me, I’d be looking to change it somehow in the hope that it starts to change people’s perceptions.


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seems a lot like shooting yourself in the foot from a labour perspective.

as you said, same path will lead to failure.

alternatively, Scottish Labour come out and publicly support independence. If that doesn’t happen, they’ll still likely get some of their lost voters back. If it does happens they’re on the front foot in the independent Scotland with a lot of positive PR and a good chance of being significant players in shaping the political landscape.

or am I being too simplistic? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

seems a lot like shooting yourself in the foot from a labour perspective.

as you said, same path will lead to failure.

alternatively, Scottish Labour come out and publicly support independence. If that doesn’t happen, they’ll still likely get some of their lost voters back. If it does happens they’re on the front foot in the independent Scotland with a lot of positive PR and a good chance of being significant players in shaping the political landscape.

or am I being too simplistic? :greengrin

Even if they came out in favour of a referendum without backing Indy they might get some regional list votes from their ex voters. Might be enough to drag them into 2nd place.


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[ronaldo7]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19018248.scottish-labour-monica-lennon-launches-bid-become-next-leader/

It looks like the wee Millionaire will have a fight on his hands.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19018248.scottish-labour-monica-lennon-launches-bid-become-next-leader/

It looks like the wee Millionaire will have a fight on his hands.

At least it will be a contest.[emoji106]


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[ronaldo7]

At least it will be a contest.[emoji106]


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Anas is currently trying to hide the skeletons. She backed Leonard in the last office fight, so will know where they're all hidden.:wink:

[hibsbollah]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19018248.scottish-labour-monica-lennon-launches-bid-become-next-leader/

It looks like the wee Millionaire will have a fight on his hands.

She abstained on the referendum question against her party’s whip, so it’s fair to say she will be a candidate less focussed on fighting on a strongly unionist platform.

[marinello59]

At least it will be a contest.[emoji106]


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So much for your inside info on Starmer appointing who he wanted then. :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

So much for your inside info on Starmer appointing who he wanted then. :greengrin

Inside info?


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[marinello59]

Inside info?


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It was just a wish then? :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

It was just a wish then? :wink:

I would only wish it either way if it mattered. And the only way it matters is if they have different positions on the biggest issue in Scottish politics and that is on a 2nd referendum. I doubt they do.


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[marinello59]

Labour are going to get hammered in the Holyrood election, there is no way they aren’t ending up with less seats. Lennon gives them a chance to plan for what happens once we are Independent though,if she wins and if they stick with her.

[Hibrandenburg]

So much for your inside info on Starmer appointing who he wanted then. :greengrin

Who's to say she's not been persuaded to stand just to ensure it's not a North Korean election? :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/phantompower14/status/1350932574236012546?s=21

Actually, good luck to her.


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[Moulin Yarns]

Agreed. They can oppose independence but they can’t oppose a referendum.

And that, in a nutshell, is why Labour will fall.

[Moulin Yarns]

I just read it and thought the same.

I'll have a go;

There was a young architect from Magherafelt
For six hours the police interviewed the Celt
Did she know at the time
It was nearly a crime
To photo the home of a Tory Welt


😀🤣

[One Day Soon]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

[Hibrandenburg]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

I think the cries within the rank and file of Scottish Labour to have an open opinion on that might get louder, either the leadership will listen or the party will become even more insignificant in Scotland.

[Mon Dieu4]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

Matter of time, better get used to the idea, self preservation will kick in eventually

[Moulin Yarns]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

That's why Labour is a busted flush. Unable to adapt, a bit like dinosaurs.

[SHODAN]

I like Monica Lennon.

[Jack]

That's why Labour is a busted flush. Unable to adapt, a bit like dinosaurs.

A bit unfair on dinosaurs. Many species lived for millions of years, in fact there's still are a few around today!

[Curried]

I like Monica Lennon.


Apparently, so do some senior SLAB reps ;-0

[ronaldo7]

Apparently, so do some senior SLAB reps ;-0

I wonder if this will be flushed out if she's successful.

[JeMeSouviens]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

You don't have to be pro-indy to respect the right of the Scottish people to decide.

And just in case you want to play the once-in-a-generation game, nobody has the right to tell the electorate they can't change their minds. Not Salmond, Sturgeon or anyone else pre-indyref. Not May, A**eface, Starmer, Murray or ODS now!

[Hibbyradge]

Apparently, so do some senior SLAB reps ;-0

And there it is. The easiest and most common slur used against women.

[Ozyhibby]

You don't have to be pro-indy to respect the right of the Scottish people to decide.

And just in case you want to play the once-in-a-generation game, nobody has the right to tell the electorate they can't change their minds. Not Salmond, Sturgeon or anyone else pre-indyref. Not May, A**eface, Starmer, Murray or ODS now!

Backing the right of the people to decide should be a no brainer for Scottish Labour. It’s easy to defend intellectually which will stop them tying themselves in knots every time they are asked about it and will allow them to focus on the things that are important to them. If they want to stop talking about independence then that’s the best thing they can do.


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[One Day Soon]

You don't have to be pro-indy to respect the right of the Scottish people to decide.

And just in case you want to play the once-in-a-generation game, nobody has the right to tell the electorate they can't change their minds. Not Salmond, Sturgeon or anyone else pre-indyref. Not May, A**eface, Starmer, Murray or ODS now!


That is an entirely different and unrelated issue.

We have never been a pro-independence party and we're not about to be. It's akin to suggesting that the SNP should have abandoned its commitment to independence during the many long years when it was an unsuccessful minor party. Political beliefs aren't something you just trade in for completely contradictory ones in bad times - that kind of populist 5hite is what ends up delivering demagogues like Mussolini or Trump.

Who is Arseface?

[One Day Soon]

Backing the right of the people to decide should be a no brainer for Scottish Labour. It’s easy to defend intellectually which will stop them tying themselves in knots every time they are asked about it and will allow them to focus on the things that are important to them. If they want to stop talking about independence then that’s the best thing they can do.


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It's amazing how much helpful advice SNP members have available to dispense for Scottish Labour. You want a referendum, you want it any way possible and you couldn't care less about Scottish Labour. Why should they listen to you?

[JeMeSouviens]

That is an entirely different and unrelated issue.

We have never been a pro-independence party and we're not about to be. It's akin to suggesting that the SNP should have abandoned its commitment to independence during the many long years when it was an unsuccessful minor party. Political beliefs aren't something you just trade in for completely contradictory ones in bad times - that kind of populist 5hite is what ends up delivering demagogues like Mussolini or Trump.

Who is Arseface?

Johnson.

Fair enough on not being pro-indy.

btw, how are S Lab leaders elected, process-wise? Can I Sign up for £3? :wink:

[lord bunberry]

It's amazing how much helpful advice SNP members have available to dispense for Scottish Labour. You want a referendum, you want it any way possible and you couldn't care less about Scottish Labour. Why should they listen to you?
Some of us do care about Scottish Labour, quite a lot of us would vote for them post independence. There’s a large number of current and ex Scottish Labour voters who back independence and would like to see the party in better shape than they are now. Lennon would be a far better choice for leader than someone like Sarwar, he’s a hypocrite and a complete chancer who would be fount out if put under proper scrutiny.

[Ozyhibby]

It's amazing how much helpful advice SNP members have available to dispense for Scottish Labour. You want a referendum, you want it any way possible and you couldn't care less about Scottish Labour. Why should they listen to you?

The advice you taking just now isn’t exactly going well for you.


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[One Day Soon]

Johnson.

Fair enough on not being pro-indy.

btw, how are S Lab leaders elected, process-wise? Can I Sign up for £3? :wink:


Ed Miliband's cluster**** on membership may still be operative. I suspect however that the eligible membership will be those who were signed up before the vacancy emerged.

But why would you pay the £3. According to many of your chums the next leader will just be appointed by London. Shome mishtake here surely?

Edit: Something that sticks better than ar5eface is needed for that narcissistic bag of self-delusion.

[One Day Soon]

Some of us do care about Scottish Labour, quite a lot of us would vote for them post independence. There’s a large number of current and ex Scottish Labour voters who back independence and would like to see the party in better shape than they are now. Lennon would be a far better choice for leader than someone like Sarwar, he’s a hypocrite and a complete chancer who would be fount out if put under proper scrutiny.


When SNP members and supporters start telling us that we need Lennon rather than Sarwar it makes it pretty clear that Lennon is who they see is in the SNP's best electoral interest. I mean your entire post is predicated on considering voting Labour AFTER independence.

Other than her not opposing a second referendum what is it about Lennon that makes you think she would be a good labour leader who would see us improve our position at the next election?

[One Day Soon]

The advice you taking just now isn’t exactly going well for you.


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You didn't answer my question. You are a member of a party that wants independence, sees Labour as an obstruction to that and believes that Labour is both run from London and has its leaders appointed from there yet believes we in Scotland should elect Lennon as our leader. Why on earth would we listen to you?

[JeMeSouviens]

When SNP members and supporters start telling us that we need Lennon rather than Sarwar it makes it pretty clear that Lennon is who they see is in the SNP's best electoral interest. I mean your entire post is predicated on considering voting Labour AFTER independence.

Other than her not opposing a second referendum what is it about Lennon that makes you think she would be a good labour leader who would see us improve our position at the next election?

In the period poverty campaign, she has actually achieved something. That's moderately rare for any opposition politician.

Obviously you don't want my advice, but if you did, I think Labour should just shut up about indy/the Union and start proposing fixes for some of the more glaring things needing fixed: drug deaths being an obvious one.

[Bristolhibby]

Labour should realise that the Unionist argument for them is broken. The Tories “own” that UJ waving policy.

Should focus on their post Independence resurgence, that they could drive. But not if they stay hidden behind the Tories Unionist coat tails. (Same with the Lib Dem’s BTW).

Post Indy there will be a whole reordering of the Scottish Political Landscape. Labour need to be ready to capitalise on that.

Unfortunately they are governed from London and so won’t be agile enough. But some young Bucks will be.

J

[BroxburnHibee]

We're not a pro-independence party and never have been, ergo we won't be supporting independence. As I've said before, if you want independence vote SNP. Or their client party the Greens.

I would prefer to vote for an independent Scottish Labour Party to run an independent Scotland.

Whats my route to that outcome? :greengrin

[G B Young]

In the period poverty campaign, she has actually achieved something. That's moderately rare for any opposition politician.

Obviously you don't want my advice, but if you did, I think Labour should just shut up about indy/the Union and start proposing fixes for some of the more glaring things needing fixed: drug deaths being an obvious one.

Judging by Sarwar's quotes, he'd be happy shut up about indy/the Union and focus on the more glaring things that need fixed:

“Over the past few years, I have gained a new perspective on our politics and realised that the things we argue about mean little to people’s lives. We spend too much time highlighting our differences, rather than focusing on what unites us.”
He says life cannot not be the same after Covid-19, and that the focus must be on advancing equality in society rather than the cause of taking Scotland out of the union.
“I firmly believe we cannot go back to society as it was before the pandemic – insecure work, hollowed- out public services, an underfunded health service, and the constant focus on another independence referendum when there’s far more important things we need to be dealing with.”
He adds: “Scottish Labour can compete again if we offer a positive alternative – a plan to heal our wounds, to reunite our people and to rebuild our country.”

[Keith_M]

I would prefer to vote for an independent Scottish Labour Party to run an independent Scotland.

Whats my route to that outcome? :greengrin


Hide your principles and vote for the SNP.

Then if/when Independence does happen, switch back to Labour.


That's the plan for a lot of people that are Labour supporters but disagree with their stance on Independence, hence the reason Labour currently have so few MPs and MSPs

:wink:

[Ozyhibby]

Judging by Sarwar's quotes, he'd be happy shut up about indy/the Union and focus on the more glaring things that need fixed:

“Over the past few years, I have gained a new perspective on our politics and realised that the things we argue about mean little to people’s lives. We spend too much time highlighting our differences, rather than focusing on what unites us.”
He says life cannot not be the same after Covid-19, and that the focus must be on advancing equality in society rather than the cause of taking Scotland out of the union.
“I firmly believe we cannot go back to society as it was before the pandemic – insecure work, hollowed- out public services, an underfunded health service, and the constant focus on another independence referendum when there’s far more important things we need to be dealing with.”
He adds: “Scottish Labour can compete again if we offer a positive alternative – a plan to heal our wounds, to reunite our people and to rebuild our country.”

How he wishes things were. He’s living in dreamland if he thinks he can just ignore indyref2 in Scottish politics. It dominates everything. The country will not be able to address any other issue until it’s been had.


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[One Day Soon]

In the period poverty campaign, she has actually achieved something. That's moderately rare for any opposition politician.

Obviously you don't want my advice, but if you did, I think Labour should just shut up about indy/the Union and start proposing fixes for some of the more glaring things needing fixed: drug deaths being an obvious one.


That's actually spot on. Not to get too niche here but it's essentially how Ekrem Imamoglu won the Istanbul Mayoral election against Erdogan's party. Don't talk about Erdogan, talk about the issues.

[lord bunberry]

When SNP members and supporters start telling us that we need Lennon rather than Sarwar it makes it pretty clear that Lennon is who they see is in the SNP's best electoral interest. I mean your entire post is predicated on considering voting Labour AFTER independence.

Other than her not opposing a second referendum what is it about Lennon that makes you think she would be a good labour leader who would see us improve our position at the next election?
Right now there’s nothing Labour can do that will negatively affect the SNP’s electoral interest. Scottish politics is so dominated by the constitutional question and Labour have almost become an irrelevance in that. Lennon’s biggest attribute is that she comes across as an honest politician that believes in what she says, Sarwar is the absolute opposite of that.

[Hibbyradge]

Obviously you don't want my advice, but if you did, I think Labour should just shut up about indy/the Union and start proposing fixes for some of the more glaring things needing fixed: drug deaths being an obvious one.

Isn't that exactly what Sarwar was slated on here for saying?

[Keith_M]

Right now there’s nothing Labour can do that will negatively affect the SNP’s electoral interest. Scottish politics is so dominated by the constitutional question and Labour have almost become an irrelevance in that. Lennon’s biggest attribute is that she comes across as an honest politician that believes in what she says, Sarwar is the absolute opposite of that.


As someone looking in from the outside, I'd have to say I agree with that.

This has nothing to do with either of their views on other matters, but I haven't seen anything from Sarwar that would back up his PR written statements (such as the one quoted earlier on this thread).

Actions speak louder than words and his actions (or lack thereof) in his own family's business when it come to paying the Living Wage, plus his laughable explanation of why they didn't implement it voluntarily, is surely quite telling.

[JeMeSouviens]

Isn't that exactly what Sarwar was slated on here for saying?

Could be, I haven't been keeping up. :dunno:

[JeMeSouviens]

As someone looking in from the outside, I'd have to say I agree with that.

This has nothing to do with either of their views on other matters, but I haven't seen anything from Sarwar that would back up his PR written statements (such as the one quoted earlier on this thread).

Actions speak louder than words and his actions (or lack thereof) in his own family's business when it come to paying the Living Wage, plus his laughable explanation of why they didn't implement it voluntarily, is surely quite telling.

I know it's an old chestnut but I don't think sending your kids to private schools is ever a good look for a non-Tory-******* either.

[lord bunberry]

As someone looking in from the outside, I'd have to say I agree with that.

This has nothing to do with either of their views on other matters, but I haven't seen anything from Sarwar that would back up his PR written statements (such as the one quoted earlier on this thread).

Actions speak louder than words and his actions (or lack thereof) in his own family's business when it come to paying the Living Wage, plus his laughable explanation of why they didn't implement it voluntarily, is surely quite telling.
He’s a career politician without the conviction to back up his words, the polar opposite to someone like Lennon.

[marinello59]

And there it is. The easiest and most common slur used against women.

Yeap. Misogynistic garbage which should have been left in the last century.

[Hiber-nation]

He’s a career politician without the conviction to back up his words, the polar opposite to someone like Lennon.

Yep, with Lennon Scottish Labour would at least have an outside chance of beginning to turn things around. With Sarwar, not a hope.

[One Day Soon]

He’s a career politician without the conviction to back up his words, the polar opposite to someone like Lennon.

Hmm, might be an idea to speak to folk who have work with them both. They have a very different perspective.

[Curried]

Yeap. Misogynistic garbage which should have been left in the last century.

My comment was in relation to the link below. Ronaldo7 understood that immediately, but you and Hibbyradge are well off-base.
I look forward to your apologies in due course.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41876121

[Hibbyradge]

My comment was in relation to the link below. Ronaldo7 understood that immediately, but you and Hibbyradge are well off-base.
I look forward to your apologies in due course.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41876121

I'm glad you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, at least not derogatory towards her.

The nod and wink way you posted your comment made the wrong conclusion easy to reach.

[Curried]

I'm glad you didn't mean it in a derogatory way, at least not derogatory towards her.

The nod and wink way you posted your comment made the wrong conclusion easy to reach.

What nod and wink! Sorry will do:-)

[marinello59]

My comment was in relation to the link below. Ronaldo7 understood that immediately, but you and Hibbyradge are well off-base.
I look forward to your apologies in due course.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41876121

Apology freely given.

Maybe if you had posted the link instead of a nod and a wink smiley though? Just saying.

[Curried]

Apology freely given.

Maybe if you had posted the link instead of a nod and a wink smiley though? Just saying.

Aye right:thumbsup:

[One Day Soon]

I know it's an old chestnut but I don't think sending your kids to private schools is ever a good look for a non-Tory-******* either.



True. Perhaps the SNP's Ash Denham could give him some PR tips on that?

[Hibbyradge]

What nod and wink! Sorry will do:-)

The wink at the end of your post.

[Curried]

The wink at the end of your post.

;-0 is what i posted at the end of my comment....It denotes astonishment. Now man-up and apologise.

[Bostonhibby]

Hide your principles and vote for the SNP.

Then if/when Independence does happen, switch back to Labour.


That's the plan for a lot of people that are Labour supporters but disagree with their stance on Independence, hence the reason Labour currently have so few MPs and MSPs

:wink:I must admit, as a labour voter with no skin in this game, its definitely the way I'd go if I was still living in Scotland.

The union bridge needs to be burnt first unless of course the majority of Scottish voters really want more of the behaviours and wealth distribution methods currently favoured by Bozo and his chums.

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[Mon Dieu4]

I see the latest ComRes Scotland poll states that 42% of Labour voters would vote Yes:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

I see the latest ComRes Scotland poll states that 42% of Labour voters would vote Yes:greengrin

That’s why Labour is where it is in Scotland. It was a party of independence, it just didn’t know it. The fact it’s still at 42% after so many have already jumped ship to the SNP is amazing.


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[Hibbyradge]

;-0 is what i posted at the end of my comment....It denotes astonishment. Now man-up and apologise.

It was a winking face with an astonished mouth!

It's your ain fault it was misinterpreted. I've acknowledged and accepted your subsequent explanation. I've nothing to apologise for.

Especially as you're now playing the victim and holding it over me on an undeserved high horse! ;-)

[G B Young]

How he wishes things were. He’s living in dreamland if he thinks he can just ignore indyref2 in Scottish politics. It dominates everything. The country will not be able to address any other issue until it’s been had.


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I'd like to think the country is addressing the Covid-19 crisis before another referendum is had. Mind you some of the more strident SNP bigwigs like Blackford seem to think throwing something that divisive into the midst of a pandemic would be a perfectly rational act.

When it comes to bona fide political issues, are we really saying that Scottish politics simply has to stand still until another independence referendum is held? We could be waiting a long time in that case as there won't be one held this year.

Believe it or not, it's possible for parties other than the SNP to advance alternative, constructive proposals on how to take Scotland forward, which Labour currently appear to be doing under Starmer. Needless to say these are instantly shot down as not worth even listening to by SNP devotees because they don't include independence. They also get shot down because the SNP don't want the Scottish electorate to even countenance a workable future for this country that might not include another referendum - hence the unseemly rush to hold one before anyone starts putting about notions that might actually appeal to those not wedded to an 'independence at all costs' mantra.

Another unspoken concern for the SNP is that, long-term, Brexit might not actually turn out to be the unmitigated disaster they dismiss it as - which again necessitates a hasty referendum. Sure, the true impact of Brexit remains a good way off but perhaps the vaccine procurement effort in the UK might be a hint of the benefits to be gained from a post-EU landscape (obviously this being a Telegraph article renders such a notion redundant in Scottish nationalist eyes though :greengrin):

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/15/britains-nimble-vaccine-taskforce-puts-eu-bureaucracy-shame/

[Bristolhibby]

I see the latest ComRes Scotland poll states that 42% of Labour voters would vote Yes:greengrin

Is that Labour voters or people who would vote Labour.

I would vote Labour down here. But an absolutely wasted vote in rural Wiltshire. It’s straight Tory or Lib Dems (if they ever get their act together).

J

[hibsbollah]

I see the latest ComRes Scotland poll states that 42% of Labour voters would vote Yes:greengrin

I spoke to a Labour candidate for Mays election over the weekend. She made it clear that although she obviously wasn’t going to publicly go against party policy on independence, she also isn’t going to campaign against a referendum on it either, and in general wasnt interested in fighting the constitutional battle. (I asked my questions in a neutral way to avoid the scenario where I could be sure she wasn’t just giving me the answers she thought I wanted to hear, this is quite common on the doorstep). I think there are quite a few Labour candidates especially from a younger generation who will be like that. It was quite refreshing to hear.

[Curried]

It was a winking face with an astonished mouth!

It's your ain fault it was misinterpreted. I've acknowledged and accepted your subsequent explanation. I've nothing to apologise for.

Especially as you're now playing the victim and holding it over me on an undeserved high horse! ;-)

As the OP I would expect you would have read the chronology….

Ronaldo7 posted immediately after me on the subject (#4571), and this should have put your small mind to rest that I was referring to a Labour party members actions on ML. Instead, you suggested I was using “The easiest and most common slur used against women”. …….That was simply defamatory.

Are you so out of the loop, given that this is a Labour party thread you started, that you didn’t notice this?

Pull your head in. I don’t expect an apology from you now, but my thoughts on your posts from now will be severely diminished.

[One Day Soon]

Wtf?

[CropleyWasGod]

This may be the right time, as an election campaign might be on us, for a Hibs.net refresher on the appropriate use (and correct interpretation) of smilies, emojis and all other non-grammatical devices.

It might help us avoid a few virtual square-goes.

Insert appropriate emoticon.

[hibsbollah]

This may be the right time, as an election campaign might be on us, for a Hibs.net refresher on the appropriate use (and correct interpretation) of smilies, emojis and all other non-grammatical devices.

It might help us avoid a few virtual square-goes.

Insert appropriate emoticon.

:flying:

[CropleyWasGod]

:flying:

Did you just call me a chopper?

[lapsedhibee]

:flying:

That's the Duff Jimmy emoticon, isn't it? Will be useful now that he's weighed in on the constitution.

[hibsbollah]

Did you just call me a chopper?

I just use :flying: for ‘some surreal nonsense going down here’-type situations. Like Jimmy Duff getting a column on constitutional matters, or Gary O’Connor reviewing late medieval French poetry.

[Hibbyradge]

As the OP I would expect you would have read the chronology….

Ronaldo7 posted immediately after me on the subject (#4571), and this should have put your small mind to rest that I was referring to a Labour party members actions on ML. Instead, you suggested I was using “The easiest and most common slur used against women”. …….That was simply defamatory.

Are you so out of the loop, given that this is a Labour party thread you started, that you didn’t notice this?

Pull your head in. I don’t expect an apology from you now, but my thoughts on your posts from now will be severely diminished.

Did you see the deliberate smiley I typed at the end of my post? That, in my small mind, indicates humour and that what was said previously wasn't serious.

I'm sorry I read your post and winking smiley in the way I did. You clearly didn't deserve the implication I made. I wasn't familiar with the story and Ronnie's post didn't mean anything to me. Believe what you will.

Had you posted the link to the newspaper article, your meaning could not have been misconstrued.

However, you've resorted to insults over what was an understandable misunderstanding, so I won't be worrying too much about how you view my future comments.

I'll continue to interpret yours as I read them, and comment appropriately if I have something to say.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bbcscotnine/status/1351285424992489484?s=21

A sensible position. She clearly gets it. Hopefully the Labour Party are smart and elect her.


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[Curried]

I'm sorry I read your post and winking smiley in the way I did. You clearly didn't deserve the implication I made. I wasn't familiar with the story and Ronnie's post didn't mean anything to me.



Thank you for your considered reply. Apology gratefully accepted.

[lucky]

I’m intrigued that many on here believe Monica Lennon has the skill set and is the answer to SLP problems. I’ve even read that she is not opportunist and politically savvy. My dealings with her are not quite as positive as some on here. I just don’t see or believe she has the political intellect to turn SLPs fortunes around. That been said the choice of a new leader is extremely limited. I’ll have to think long and hard before giving my support and vote to either of them. What is required is a SLP that actually holds the SNP and Tory governments to account.

[weecounty hibby]

I’m intrigued that many on here believe Monica Lennon has the skill set and is the answer to SLP problems. I’ve even read that she is not opportunist and politically savvy. My dealings with her are not quite as positive as some on here. I just don’t see or believe she has the political intellect to turn SLPs fortunes around. That been said the choice of a new leader is extremely limited. I’ll have to think long and hard before giving my support and vote to either of them. What is required is a SLP that actually holds the SNP and Tory governments to account.
I honestly don't know too much about them but heard both on the radio this morning and if I was a Labour member I would have been inclined to lean towards Monica Lennon at the moment. Thought she spoke quite well. Whoever it is will have a tough job. But I totally agree that we need a stronger opposition, and that is from an SNP member and committed independence supporter. They could both hold the government to account and support an independence referendum.😉

[Keith_M]

I’m intrigued that many on here believe Monica Lennon has the skill set and is the answer to SLP problems. I’ve even read that she is not opportunist and politically savvy. My dealings with her are not quite as positive as some on here. I just don’t see or believe she has the political intellect to turn SLPs fortunes around. That been said the choice of a new leader is extremely limited. I’ll have to think long and hard before giving my support and vote to either of them. What is required is a SLP that actually holds the SNP and Tory governments to account.


I think a decent opposition that asks the awkward questions is always a good thing.

I think Starmer, and to a lesser extend Blackford, have had their moments in that regard at Westminster though I'd really like to them to follow up on the pathetic and childish responses from the Tory front-bench a bit more, e.g. the Happy British Fish crap from Rees-Mogg.

If they could put their inbuilt hatred of the SNP aside in Holyrood, they could maybe do a better job there as well. The SG have made some pretty serious mistakes during the pandemic and need to be called out for this at some point.

[CloudSquall]

I think a decent opposition that asks the awkward questions is always a good thing.

I think Starmer, and to a lesser extend Blackford, have had their moments in that regard at Westminster though I'd really like to them to follow up on the pathetic and childish responses from the Tory front-bench a bit more, e.g. the Happy British Fish crap from Rees-Mogg.

If they could put their inbuilt hatred of the SNP aside in Holyrood, they could maybe do a better job there as well. The SG have made some pretty serious mistakes during the pandemic and need to be called out for this at some point.

I agree with that, it would be good for Scotland if we had a constructive Labour opposition challenging the SNP on their record from the left.

As much as I criticise Ruth Davidson when she could drop the Punch and Judy show with Sturgeon they could actually have a very good debate which is often badly missing from parliament.

[stoneyburn hibs]

I’m intrigued that many on here believe Monica Lennon has the skill set and is the answer to SLP problems. I’ve even read that she is not opportunist and politically savvy. My dealings with her are not quite as positive as some on here. I just don’t see or believe she has the political intellect to turn SLPs fortunes around. That been said the choice of a new leader is extremely limited. I’ll have to think long and hard before giving my support and vote to either of them. What is required is a SLP that actually holds the SNP and Tory governments to account.


My thoughts too, I don't think she'll be able to lay a glove on NS.
That said, she'd get my vote ahead of her opponent if I was a Labour member .
Sarwar comes across as completely disingenuous.

[ronaldo7]

When SNP members and supporters start telling us that we need Lennon rather than Sarwar it makes it pretty clear that Lennon is who they see is in the SNP's best electoral interest. I mean your entire post is predicated on considering voting Labour AFTER independence.

Other than her not opposing a second referendum what is it about Lennon that makes you think she would be a good labour leader who would see us improve our position at the next election?

When Labour and their supporters start telling us that we don't want a referendum, it makes it pretty clear that a referendum is in our best interests.:aok:

[ronaldo7]

https://twitter.com/Douglas4Moray/status/1351504320479588353

Douglas Ross now asking if Anas, or Monica will be up for a Unionist coalition.

Better together getting their act in order again. :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

I think a decent opposition that asks the awkward questions is always a good thing.

I think Starmer, and to a lesser extend Blackford, have had their moments in that regard at Westminster though I'd really like to them to follow up on the pathetic and childish responses from the Tory front-bench a bit more, e.g. the Happy British Fish crap from Rees-Mogg.

If they could put their inbuilt hatred of the SNP aside in Holyrood, they could maybe do a better job there as well. The SG have made some pretty serious mistakes during the pandemic and need to be called out for this at some point.

The trouble is that those same mistakes have been made by the Tories in England and Labour in Wales. It makes it very difficult for them to call out the SNP here without dropping their colleagues in the poo.


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[weecounty hibby]

https://twitter.com/Douglas4Moray/status/1351504320479588353

Douglas Ross now asking if Anas, or Monica will be up for a Unionist coalition.

Better together getting their act in order again. :wink:
Better together seems to have been a disaster for Labour so will be very interesting to see what happens there. Would be interesting to see how they would justify supporting a man and a party that voted to take £20 away from the poorest in society as well.
Also he is almost by default making this is a plebiscite election on the independence question. Very brave of him

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210119/0e6be178284a87aaa5d54968c27049bd.jpg


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[Kato]

Imagine the cold clammy hand that invites you to join forces with the Scottish Conservatives. Saying that Gordon Brown never blanched once.

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[cabbageandribs1875]

dross needs to stop posting his filthy tory leaflets through peoples letterboxes

[cabbageandribs1875]

although this article appears to be from 2014 i've learnt a few more things about that sarwar father and son act, i like him even less now

The Sarwar Dynasty – The Chalice is Mine Says Anas – caltonjock (https://caltonjock.com/2014/08/31/the-sarwar-dynasty-the-chalice-is-mine-says-anas/?fbclid=IwAR0JJ_EKW8E7vgD3cmqWGOT-PXCT7M7jmpr_paiOUlUgju16suycPpwO5IU)

[lucky]

https://twitter.com/Douglas4Moray/status/1351504320479588353

Douglas Ross now asking if Anas, or Monica will be up for a Unionist coalition.

Better together getting their act in order again. :wink:

That mistake will never be repeated, Sarwar at the time was against Better Together and lead a United with Labour campaign. It gained little traction and is often forgotten about he was against Better Together. Lennon, as far as I’m aware was not involved in any campaign in 2013/14 but glad to see she’s ruled out any coalition with the Tories

[Jack]

although this article appears to be from 2014 i've learnt a few more things about that sarwar father and son act, i like him even less now

The Sarwar Dynasty – The Chalice is Mine Says Anas – caltonjock (https://caltonjock.com/2014/08/31/the-sarwar-dynasty-the-chalice-is-mine-says-anas/?fbclid=IwAR0JJ_EKW8E7vgD3cmqWGOT-PXCT7M7jmpr_paiOUlUgju16suycPpwO5IU)

I met them both at an event.

I found them quite obnoxious. I don't think they liked me either lol

[greenlex]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210119/0e6be178284a87aaa5d54968c27049bd.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well played hen. It’s a start

[One Day Soon]

Imagine the cold clammy hand that invites you to join forces with the Scottish Conservatives. Saying that Gordon Brown never blanched once.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


That cold clammy hand didn't seem to cause Salmond or Sturgeon to blanche when they were happy to join forces with the Scottish Conservatives to have their minority government propped up in power by the Tories for four years in the Scottish Parliament from 2007 to 2011.

[Keith_M]

That cold clammy hand didn't seem to cause Salmond or Sturgeon to blanche when they were happy to join forces with the Scottish Conservatives to have their minority government propped up in power by the Tories for four years in the Scottish Parliament from 2007 to 2011.


Are you claiming that the SNP were in a coalition with the Tories?

:confused:



If not, what did you mean?

[ronaldo7]

That mistake will never be repeated, Sarwar at the time was against Better Together and lead a United with Labour campaign. It gained little traction and is often forgotten about he was against Better Together. Lennon, as far as I’m aware was not involved in any campaign in 2013/14 but glad to see she’s ruled out any coalition with the Tories

I'd hope it wouldn't be repeated, although it's not stopped labour sharing power with the Tories in coalitions in councils all over Scotland.

[One Day Soon]

Are you claiming that the SNP were in a coalition with the Tories?

:confused:



If not, what did you mean?


The minority SNP government of 2007 to 2001 was indeed dependent upon Tory votes for its budgets in the four years of that parliament. An arrangement that suited both sides. The Tories wanted to both marginalise Labour and look like they were legitimate in Scottish politics again and the SNP wanted the Tory votes they needed to pass budgets without being in a formal coalition with the Tories. So, not quite the clean hands they like to portray where dealing with the Tories is concerned.

[Keith_M]

The minority SNP government of 2007 to 2001 was indeed dependent upon Tory votes for its budgets in the four years of that parliament. An arrangement that suited both sides. The Tories wanted to both marginalise Labour and look like they were legitimate in Scottish politics again and the SNP wanted the Tory votes they needed to pass budgets without being in a formal coalition with the Tories. So, not quite the clean hands they like to portray where dealing with the Tories is concerned.


So they weren't in a coalition then, thanks for clearing that up.

Apparently your only complaint is that the Tories voted yes to budget proposals by the SNP.

As opposed to the Labour party, who vote against any proposal by the SNP purely because the SNP were the ones proposing it, even if it's actually Labour policy and something they're trying to implement themselves in other parts of the UK.


I'm struggling to see where your 'not quite the clean hands' part is relevant.... Surely your complaint should be with your own party for being so partisan?



I give you an 'A' for determination to prove your point and a 'C-' for the 'evidence' to back up your assertions.

[One Day Soon]

So they weren't in a coalition then, thanks for clearing that up.

Apparently your only complaint is that the Tories voted yes to budget proposals by the SNP.

As opposed to the Labour party, who vote against any proposal by the SNP purely because the SNP were the ones proposing it, even if it's actually Labour policy and something they're trying to implement themselves in other parts of the UK.


I'm struggling to see where your 'not quite the clean hands' part is relevant.... Surely your complaint should be with your own party for being so partisan?



I give you an 'A' for determination to prove your point and a 'C-' for the 'evidence' to back up your assertions.


This wasn't a discussion about coalitions, it was a discussion about willing to take the clammy Tory hand to work together. You've rather pathetically tried to turn it into a 'was it a formal coalition' debating point because you know they are bang to rights for working hand in glove with the Tories during that four years to keep themselves in power.

Your willingness to see working together in Better Together as baaaaaaaad but having an informal alliance with the Tories to stay in government as goooooooood is a spectacular leap of perverse logic. It's a get out of jail free because it wasn't a formal coalition? On yer Natty bike.

[weecounty hibby]

This wasn't a discussion about coalitions, it was a discussion about willing to take the clammy Tory hand to work together. You've rather pathetically tried to turn it into a 'was it a formal coalition' debating point because you know they are bang to rights for working hand in glove with the Tories during that four years to keep themselves in power.

Your willingness to see working together in Better Together as baaaaaaaad but having an informal alliance with the Tories to stay in government as goooooooood is a spectacular leap of perverse logic. It's a get out of jail free because it wasn't a formal coalition? On yer Natty bike.

But the whole design of the Scottish Parliament was around having to work with other parties to get things delivered. Cross party acceptance of budgets is a good thing and sadly at times it looks like there are parties that will vote against any kind if proposal regardless of what that is just because it is from a certain other party

[Moulin Yarns]

But the whole design of the Scottish Parliament was around having to work with other parties to get things delivered. Cross party acceptance of budgets is a good thing and sadly at times it looks like there are parties that will vote against any kind if proposal regardless of what that is just because it is from a certain other party

Hear, hear. Labour worked with lib dems, tories both in Parliament and local government. It's the only way forward, but some don't seem to accept that.

[Keith_M]

This wasn't a discussion about coalitions, it was a discussion about willing to take the clammy Tory hand to work together. You've rather pathetically tried to turn it into a 'was it a formal coalition' debating point because you know they are bang to rights for working hand in glove with the Tories during that four years to keep themselves in power.
....


I asked you for evidence... you gave none, ergo your original claim is nonsense



...
Your willingness to see working together in Better Together as baaaaaaaad but having an informal alliance with the Tories to stay in government as goooooooood is a spectacular leap of perverse logic. It's a get out of jail free because it wasn't a formal coalition? On yer Natty bike.


What a childish and ill-informed comment.

Such baseless* name calling just shows me that, as per usual, you can't back up your statement. I've asked you reasonable questions on here numerous times and rarely get a response, I'm starting to realise why.





* If you read my posts on the subject, I've criticised and questioned the judgments of the SNP on numerous occasions.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun

[DaveF]

http://ismympaprick.co.uk/

Have fun

Ian Murray isn't a prick? It must be broken 😃

[degenerated]

Surely this will derail Anas Sarwars bid to be regional manager. I'm not an expert but I'm guessing that accepting donations from a paedophile isn't going to be a vote winner. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210124/40e7adac70325e7e48681a91285abdd8.jpg

[Bostonhibby]

Ian Murray isn't a prick? It must be broken [emoji2]Maybe he's on the Ismympanarse one?

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[ronaldo7]

Surely this will derail Anas Sarwars bid to be regional manager. I'm not an expert but I'm guessing that accepting donations from a paedophile isn't going to be a vote winner. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210124/40e7adac70325e7e48681a91285abdd8.jpg

This cannae be right, I was told he was down to earth good guy.

Was this not some time ago?

[degenerated]

This cannae be right, I was told he was down to earth good guy.

Was this not some time ago?Was only in paper today

[ronaldo7]

Was only in paper today

I'm maybe getting mixed up with his Dividend payments from his family business. A&G(the donator) may be a business connection to the family.

[CropleyWasGod]

Was only in paper today

The donation was made in 2011.

Only taken 10 years for somebody to decide it was time to put it out there.

[degenerated]

The donation was made in 2011.

Only taken 10 years for somebody to decide it was time to put it out there.The article doesn't mention any dates on it

[CropleyWasGod]

The article doesn't mention any dates on it

It's buried well down. Almost at the end, after a lot of stuff about the donor.

Try this :)

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/millionaire-sex-offender-gave-4000-23374250

As well as the donation in 2011, Najafian’s firm has given £8000 in total to Scottish Labour – a further £2000 went to its Glasgow Central branch in 2010 months before Anas took over the seat from his dad Mohammad Sarwar – along with £2000 to the wider party.

[degenerated]

It's buried well down. Almost at the end, after a lot of stuff about the donor.

Try this :)

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/millionaire-sex-offender-gave-4000-23374250

As well as the donation in 2011, Najafian’s firm has given £8000 in total to Scottish Labour – a further £2000 went to its Glasgow Central branch in 2010 months before Anas took over the seat from his dad Mohammad Sarwar – along with £2000 to the wider party.Weird, it linked to this one yesterday. More of an opinion piece than the story. I dont read the mail so wouldn't have noticed the full piece.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/its-essential-politicians-know-who-23374164

[CropleyWasGod]

Weird, it linked to this one yesterday. More of an opinion piece than the story. I dont read the mail so wouldn't have noticed the full piece.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/its-essential-politicians-know-who-23374164

:aok:

The whole thing just helps to reinforce my negativity about politicians. "We won't release this story until it does us some good, or does somebody else some bad".

[Keith_M]

Surely this will derail Anas Sarwars bid to be regional manager. I'm not an expert but I'm guessing that accepting donations from a paedophile isn't going to be a vote winner. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210124/40e7adac70325e7e48681a91285abdd8.jpg


Sorry, but that's an idiotic take on the facts of the situation.

They make it sound like the guy put a wad of cash in Sarwar's hand, but it was a company that donated to the Labour party and the campaign.

[Keith_M]

:aok:

The whole thing just helps to reinforce my negativity about politicians. "We won't release this story until it does us some good, or does somebody else some bad".


:agree:


It's like the last (failed) attempt to undermine Trump in 2016 when they released the 'Pussy Grabber' video.

[lucky]

The story against Sarwar is a smear story. The crimes were committed in 2004, the creep got 200 hours community service. In 2011 his company donated to the Labour Party and Sarwar’s campaign. I’m no fan of Sarwar but the story is crap. Go after him for failing to ensure a living wage is paid to people that work for the family business rather than crap like this.

[Chorley Hibee]

The GMB etc, endorsing a guy who pays his staff less than the National Minimum Wage.

Never felt such despair towards our political system.

[G B Young]

Osborne thinks Labour should be doing a lot better than they are under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-labour-covid-b901186.html

I'm not sure you can make such judgements during the current, unprecedented climate when 'normal' politics is so rarely in evidence.

[degenerated]

Sorry, but that's an idiotic take on the facts of the situation.

They make it sound like the guy put a wad of cash in Sarwar's hand, but it was a company that donated to the Labour party and the campaign.Take it up with the Sunday mail, they wrote it.

[hibsbollah]

Osborne thinks Labour should be doing a lot better than they are under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-labour-covid-b901186.html

I'm not sure you can make such judgements during the current, unprecedented climate when 'normal' politics is so rarely in evidence.

What an awful piece from an awful man who’s taken the country to the brink. Every word dripping in arrogance. So lacking in self awareness it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

[Hibrandenburg]

Osborne thinks Labour should be doing a lot better than they are under Starmer:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-labour-covid-b901186.html

I'm not sure you can make such judgements during the current, unprecedented climate when 'normal' politics is so rarely in evidence.

He's right, Starmer is clinical in his dismantling of Johnson every time they cross swords. But Johnson's tactic of not answering questions and just firing back meaningless counter accusations is working. Look at the polls, the majority of the electorate have no interest in facts and are only interested in having their own biased views confirmed by a blethering PM.

[Ozyhibby]

He's right, Starmer is clinical in his dismantling of Johnson every time they cross swords. But Johnson's tactic of not answering questions and just firing back meaningless counter accusations is working. Look at the polls, the majority of the electorate have no interest in facts and are only interested in having their own biased views confirmed by a blethering PM.

And what is Starmer’s offer to the public in England? Being good at PMQ’s is never going to be enough. Everyone watching knows he is afraid to make a call during the pandemic. He looks indecisive.


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[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/143576310_3898874133496361_4519086355024380056_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=CMh0eKYj8FMAX-wtmpA&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=87eddcc302c6775d5660acef92dce43e&oe=6037955C

[Hibbyradge]

And what is Starmer’s offer to the public in England? Being good at PMQ’s is never going to be enough. Everyone watching knows he is afraid to make a call during the pandemic. He looks indecisive.


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Afraid to make a call? What do you mean?

[Ozyhibby]

Afraid to make a call? What do you mean?

All his ‘we should maybe close the schools’ or ‘we should look at the possibility of tightening restrictions’. He’s making zero impression with the public at all at a time when most are dissatisfied with the govt handling of the crisis. You pretty much only see him once a week on PMQ’s.


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[Rumble de Thump]

Conservative George Osbourne is 'editor' at a newspaper owned by the ridiculously wealthy son of a KGB agent. I heard he was quitting that job, though. Not sure if that's happened yet.

[Hibbyradge]

All his ‘we should maybe close the schools’ or ‘we should look at the possibility of tightening restrictions’. He’s making zero impression with the public at all at a time when most are dissatisfied with the govt handling of the crisis. You pretty much only see him once a week on PMQ’s.


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Ok. He's called for tougher, and earlier, restrictions on a number of occasions, but I think the public's interest in domestic politics is exceptionally low at the moment.

Covid, Brexit and Trump have understandably taken centre stage and the general election is 4 years away.

Starmer doesn't have the answers to the pandemic and the country is fairly understanding towards the government because this has never happened before.

There's no point in Starmer opening himself up to attack by suggesting all sorts of action which are easily portrayed as unfeasible.

Waiting for mistakes and waiting for opportunities is Starmer's job right now.

I need to go so have to leave it there.

[Keith_M]

Take it up with the Sunday mail, they wrote it.


Yeah, it did kind of (unintenionally) come across as being aimed at you.

Sorry.

:greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

He's right, Starmer is clinical in his dismantling of Johnson every time they cross swords. But Johnson's tactic of not answering questions and just firing back meaningless counter accusations is working. Look at the polls, the majority of the electorate have no interest in facts and are only interested in having their own biased views confirmed by a blethering PM.

I'm not sure what else he can do without getting labelled for life as a disruptive agitator in a time of crisis.

[G B Young]

Ok. He's called for tougher, and earlier, restrictions on a number of occasions, but I think the public's interest in domestic politics is exceptionally low at the moment.

Covid, Brexit and Trump have understandably taken centre stage and the general election is 4 years away.

Starmer doesn't have the answers to the pandemic and the country is fairly understanding towards the government because this has never happened before.

There's no point in Starmer opening himself up to attack by suggesting all sorts of action which are easily portrayed as unfeasible.

Waiting for mistakes and waiting for opportunities is Starmer's job right now.

I need to go so have to leave it there.

Agreed, although the SNP seem to think little of putting self interest to the fore by agitating for another referendum in the midst of a pandemic :wink:

Re Starmer, I think he can do little more than tread water at present. Within the party he's cleared the decks to a large extent when it comes to sweeping aside the Corbynites but there's not much he can achieve on the pandemic front without coming across as 'Captain Hindsight' or whatever it is the PM calls him.

[allmodcons]

Agreed, although the SNP seem to think little of putting self interest to the fore by agitating for another referendum in the midst of a pandemic :wink:

Re Starmer, I think he can do little more than tread water at present. Within the party he's cleared the decks to a large extent when it comes to sweeping aside the Corbynites but there's not much he can achieve on the pandemic front without coming across as 'Captain Hindsight' or whatever it is the PM calls him.

Self interest - what pish!

If you want to talk self interest, look no further than the top of your beloved Conservative Party, where they hand out million pound contracts in return for party donations.

The whole raison d'etre of the SNP is to pursue an Independent Scottish State. What is it with people like you that your politics are somehow 'pure' when someone like me who thinks we'd benefit from being out of the Union are termed 'self interested'.

Should all politics and opposition stop during the pandemic?

Should Biden have said "**** it we are in the throes of a global pandemic carry on Donald" and not fought the US election?

Is it just those elements that you don't like or agree with that should cease to 'agitate' for change?

[Ozyhibby]

Self interest - what pish!

If you want to talk self interest, look no further than the top of your beloved Conservative Party, where they hand out million pound contracts in return for party donations.

The whole raison d'etre of the SNP is to pursue an Independent Scottish State. What is it with people like you that your politics are somehow 'pure' when someone like me who thinks we'd benefit from being out of the Union are termed 'self interested'.

Should all politics and opposition stop during the pandemic?

Should Biden have said "**** it we are in the throes of a global pandemic carry on Donald" and not fought the US election?

Is it just those elements that you don't like or agree with that should cease to 'agitate' for change?

Only politics you oppose should stop during a pandemic, that’s why it’s ok for Johnson to travel to Scotland to save the union during the pandemic but not for the SNP to even mention it.


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[makaveli1875]

Only politics you oppose should stop during a pandemic, that’s why it’s ok for Johnson to travel to Scotland to save the union during the pandemic but not for the SNP to even mention it.


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It would be better if Johnson travelled somewhere far away on a 1 way ticket and took Sturgeon with him . The pair of them are useless clowns .

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/pmqs-starmer-s-opposition-is-strangely-muted/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[ronaldo7]

Agreed, although the SNP seem to think little of putting self interest to the fore by agitating for another referendum in the midst of a pandemic :wink:

Re Starmer, I think he can do little more than tread water at present. Within the party he's cleared the decks to a large extent when it comes to sweeping aside the Corbynites but there's not much he can achieve on the pandemic front without coming across as 'Captain Hindsight' or whatever it is the PM calls him.

Impressive shoehorning of the SNP onto a Labour thread. It only took 4 words. :faf:

You're mesmerised by them.

No need to reply. :wink:

[hibsbollah]

I'm not sure what else he can do without getting labelled for life as a disruptive agitator in a time of crisis.

He can make an effort to pin down Johnson on detail. Which is BJs weak point and what Starmer is emphatically NOT doing. He has been labelled ‘forensic’ by the friendly media so often that it is being missed that exactly what he isn’t being. Nothing about the test and trace disgrace. The old boys club Covid contracts worth billions. And the current policies on Covid. He’s wooly.

Yvette Cooper today was a huge improvement;

These measures are welcome and overdue but they do not go far enough to prevent new variants reaching and spreading in the UK. The Brazil and South Africa variants have already been found across several continents and the WHO has said their spread is being underestimated. The government got this badly wrong in the first wave, when less than 0.1% of imported cases came directly into the UK from China, but 62% came from France and Spain, countries for which there were no restrictions at all in place. We cannot make the same mistakes again if we are to protect the vaccine programme ...
Other countries operate testing on arrival, much wider quarantine hotel arrangements, quarantine taxis and proper home quarantine enforcement measures. Even under this new UK system it appears that thousands of people will still be arriving at UK airports each day after mixing with lots of people on their journey, and then will be able to head straight on to public transport across the country to get home. Ministers need to confirm how many people they expect to be covered by quarantine hotels, and how many won’t. The government needs to be rigorous about this. The prime minister can’t claim that we have one of the toughest border regimes in the world when there are still so many holes in our system.

[hibsbollah]

Impressive shoehorning of the SNP onto a Labour thread. It only took 4 words. :faf:

You're mesmerised by them.

No need to reply. :wink:

He’s also smashed the ‘Most Irrelevant Mentions of Corbyn to the Discussion at Large’ record. There’s more than one Obsession at play here, none of them really relevant to what’s wrong with the world today.

[lapsedhibee]

He can pin down Johnson in detail. Which he is emphatically NOT doing. He has been labelled ‘forensic’ by the friendly media so often that it is being missed that exactly what he isn’t being. Nothing about the test and trace disgrace. The old boys club Covid contracts worth billions. And the current policies on Covid. He’s wooly.


Didn't see today's PMQs but have watched Starmer many times trying to pin down Johnson on detail. Johnson waffles a lot of tosh in response, and the Speaker never requires that he actually address the question put to him. Think the Speaker's once or twice cut Johnson off mid-late ramble, but there's never any proper insistence that the questions get any sort of relevant or even coherent answer. Not clear how Cooper could get relevant responses either. Last time she roasted him at a Select Committee, he just sulked didn't he? :dunno:

[neil7908]

He can make an effort to pin down Johnson on detail. Which is BJs weak point and what Starmer is emphatically NOT doing. He has been labelled ‘forensic’ by the friendly media so often that it is being missed that exactly what he isn’t being. Nothing about the test and trace disgrace. The old boys club Covid contracts worth billions. And the current policies on Covid. He’s wooly.

This is backed up by the below:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/marcus-rashford-covid-boris-johnson-poll-b1794632.html

Not great reading for Starmer and his supporters.

[Keith_M]

Didn't see today's PMQs but have watched Starmer many times trying to pin down Johnson on detail. Johnson waffles a lot of tosh in response, and the Speaker never requires that he actually address the question put to him. Think the Speaker's once or twice cut Johnson off mid-late ramble, but there's never any proper insistence that the questions get any sort of relevant or even coherent answer. Not clear how Cooper could get relevant responses either. Last time she roasted him at a Select Committee, he just sulked didn't he? :dunno:


I think that's largely why PMQs is a waste of time.

All it needs is a PM that obfuscates, changes the subject or makes a reply that is actually an attack on the questioner.

Johnson and most of his front bench team seem to be experts at it and are almost never called out.

[ronaldo7]

I think that's largely why PMQs is a waste of time.

All it needs is a PM that obfuscates, changes the subject or makes a reply that is actually an attack on the questioner.

Johnson and most of his front bench team seem to be experts at it and are almost never called out.

One of the reasons is that Lindsay Hoyle is a waste of space. At least Bercow kept them in line.

Captain hindsight, and General chaos are made for each other.

[Keith_M]

One of the reasons is that Lindsay Hoyle is a waste of space. At least Bercow kept them in line.

Captain hindsight, and General chaos are made for each other.


Agreed.

That's probably why they hated him so much... and why he was the first Speaker in 230 years not to be given a peerage on retirement from the role.

[Prof. Shaggy]

I think that's largely why PMQs is a waste of time.

All it needs is a PM/FM that obfuscates, changes the subject or makes a reply that is actually an attack on the questioner.

Johnson and most of his front bench team seem to be experts at it and are almost never called out.

ftfy

[Keith_M]

ftfy


Actually you didn't.

This is a discussion on the effectiveness of Starmer (and others) calling out the nonsense replies from the Westminster Government.

If you want to make a point about the FM and Holyrood, then can I suggest the SNP or Independence threads.

I'm happy to join in on those where criticism is warranted ;-)

[Prof. Shaggy]

Actually you didn't.

This is a discussion on the effectiveness of Starmer (and others) calling out the nonsense replies from the Westminster Government.

If you want to make a point about the FM and Holyrood, then can I suggest the SNP or Independence threads.

I'm happy to join in on those where criticism is warranted ;-)

You're right. I'm not sure my observation is entirely without merit however.
It's not always safe to imagine that a discussion of one political party can be hermetically sealed from references to another.

[Ozyhibby]

Agreed.

That's probably why they hated him so much... and why he was the first Speaker in 230 years not to be given a peerage on retirement from the role.

Brown, Cameron and May haven’t got anything either because the Queen hates Blair so much that she can’t be seen to be missing anyone out.


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[G B Young]

Agreed.

That's probably why they hated him so much... and why he was the first Speaker in 230 years not to be given a peerage on retirement from the role.

I thought it was due to the numerous allegations of bullying he faced from his staff?

[lapsedhibee]

I thought it was due to the numerous allegations of bullying he faced from his staff?

Yes, the current UKGov has an absolutely zero tolerance policy on bullying.

[SHODAN]

I thought it was due to the numerous allegations of bullying he faced from his staff?

Lol. It'll be Baroness Patel in a few years' time, don't worry.

[Keith_M]

You're right. I'm not sure my observation is entirely without merit however.
It's not always safe to imagine that a discussion of one political party can be hermetically sealed from references to another.


I know, I wasn't being 100% serious.

:wink:

[hibsbollah]

One of the reasons is that Lindsay Hoyle is a waste of space. At least Bercow kept them in line.

Captain hindsight, and General chaos are made for each other.

Great point. I’m watching PMQs less frequently recently but when I do I always notice Hoyle is conspicuously inconspicuous. ‘Unseen work’. Basically, if Starmer (or Blackford) asks Boris a complex question about finance, and Boris responds ‘salt n sauce, but just on the chips, nothing on the fish’, he’d get away with it.

[Keith_M]

I thought it was due to the numerous allegations of bullying he faced from his staff?


I'm sure that the Government would be willing to give that as an excuse.

Problem is, they don't exactly have a good record on clamping down on bullying, when it suits them.

[neil7908]

Tories ahead again in the polls:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/31/success-of-vaccine-rollout-pushes-tories-ahead-of-labour-in-the-polls

Appears just not being Corbyn isn't enough after all. Now we'll see if Starmer has the makings of a leader.

[Jack]

Tories ahead again in the polls:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/31/success-of-vaccine-rollout-pushes-tories-ahead-of-labour-in-the-polls

Appears just not being Corbyn isn't enough after all. Now we'll see if Starmer has the makings of a leader.

He's been too quiet of late. He needs to get on the lunchtime/6/10 o'clock TV news more often than not.

[Ozyhibby]

He's been too quiet of late. He needs to get on the lunchtime/6/10 o'clock TV news more often than not.

Been like that since he started. He’s like a part time leader.
If you compare it to the graft Tony Blair was putting in as leader of the opposition it’s like night and day.


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[G B Young]

Been like that since he started. He’s like a part time leader.
If you compare it to the graft Tony Blair was putting in as leader of the opposition it’s like night and day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very different circumstances though. Blair was faced with a fast-fading, stale government which had been in power for nigh on 20 years and was reduced (I think) to a tiny majority (might even have been a minority government by the end). Pretty much a sitting duck for a bold, brash new Labour leader to attack on the political front and curry favour with jaded voters. This time round a global health crisis is the only show in town and conventional political sparring has pretty much disappeared from the agenda.

Now that the government is finally attracting some positive headlines re the vaccine rollout it's little surprise they've got a boost in the polls and it's hard to see how Starmer can make himself relevant at present. There's naturally big public support for the vaccination programme so he's hardly going to oppose it for opposition's sake.

The next election remains a long way off and the midst of a pandemic doesn't seem like a optimum time to try and publicise new headline Labour policies. Time is surely still on his side though and in the meantime flagging up pressing public concerns like the lack of vaccinations for school staff seems a sensible enough course of action.

[Hiber-nation]

We all know Starmer just doesn't have it. Good at PMQs. That's it. Not a hope in hell of winning over Labour's lost voters. Time may be on his side but he'd need a personality transplant to oust the Tories.

[Ozyhibby]

Very different circumstances though. Blair was faced with a fast-fading, stale government which had been in power for nigh on 20 years and was reduced (I think) to a tiny majority (might even have been a minority government by the end). Pretty much a sitting duck for a bold, brash new Labour leader to attack on the political front and curry favour with jaded voters. This time round a global health crisis is the only show in town and conventional political sparring has pretty much disappeared from the agenda.

Now that the government is finally attracting some positive headlines re the vaccine rollout it's little surprise they've got a boost in the polls and it's hard to see how Starmer can make himself relevant at present. There's naturally big public support for the vaccination programme so he's hardly going to oppose it for opposition's sake.

The next election remains a long way off and the midst of a pandemic doesn't seem like a optimum time to try and publicise new headline Labour policies. Time is surely still on his side though and in the meantime flagging up pressing public concerns like the lack of vaccinations for school staff seems a sensible enough course of action.

So he’s just waiting, hoping the Tories become unpopular? Seems like a weak strategy to me. He’s been in the job a year and most folk have no idea what his vision for the country is?


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[Hibbyradge]

So he’s just waiting, hoping the Tories become unpopular? Seems like a weak strategy to me. He’s been in the job a year and most folk have no idea what his vision for the country is?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GB is right, though.

Covid is the only show in town. Even the clusterbuck that is Brexit has gone off the radar.
No-one is interested in politicians' visions for the future when people are wondering if they've actually got one themselves.

Every political commentator forecast a "Vaccination bounce" for the Tories and we're seeing the start of that. When everything settles down, and we start to look back at the wreckage left behind, who caused it, and what needs to happen going forward, opinions will change again.

You've made it abundantly clear that you don't rate Starmer and that you don't think he's doing enough. That's fine, but understand that a week is a long time in politics. 3 years is an age.

[G B Young]

So he’s just waiting, hoping the Tories become unpopular? Seems like a weak strategy to me. He’s been in the job a year and most folk have no idea what his vision for the country is?


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Obviously he won't be basing his strategy on that hope alone. I'm just suggesting that 'What's Sir Kier's long-term vision for the country?' probably isn't the burning question on many voters' lips right now.

[JeMeSouviens]

Shurely shome mishtake, what’s this internationalist doing with that flag he can’t eat?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtK4kuzXEAYl3Yf?format=jpg&name=large

[JeMeSouviens]

Surely not trying to ape these ********s?? :confused:

https://images.ctfassets.net/pjshm78m9jt4/384800_header/996fbe4b7bf74b8b4579fbaed26d7268/importedImage384800_header?fm=webp&fit=fill&w=720&h=405&q=80


https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/Boris-Johnson-gave-two-thumbs-up-as-he-signed-the-historic-deal-1378086.webp?r=1609346620970

[Moulin Yarns]

Shurely shome mishtake, what’s this internationalist doing with that flag he can’t eat?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtK4kuzXEAYl3Yf?format=jpg&name=large

That was the Scottish Labour Party broadcast this evening. But then I suppose there is nobody left in Scotland to lead the broadcast.

[One Day Soon]

Surely not trying to ape these ********s?? :confused:

https://images.ctfassets.net/pjshm78m9jt4/384800_header/996fbe4b7bf74b8b4579fbaed26d7268/importedImage384800_header?fm=webp&fit=fill&w=720&h=405&q=80


https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/139/590x/Boris-Johnson-gave-two-thumbs-up-as-he-signed-the-historic-deal-1378086.webp?r=1609346620970


It's great that Oor Nikla always rises above posing around with flags, otherwise you might be tempted to think there's **** all difference between her and all of them trying to play the same dog-whistle us-and-them gammon card to their respective electorates...

[JeMeSouviens]

It's great that Oor Nikla always rises above posing around with flags, otherwise you might be tempted to think there's **** all difference between her and all of them trying to play the same dog-whistle us-and-them gammon card to their respective electorates...

Well we know the Nats are flag waving fanatical populists, that's a given. I thought your guy was supposed to be above that sort of thing? Seems he's found his dog whistle to play along the (used to be) red wall. :wink:

"Oor Nikla" - a wee cringe there, nice touch. :wink:

[One Day Soon]

Well we know the Nats are flag waving fanatical populists, that's a given. I thought your guy was supposed to be above that sort of thing? Seems he's found his dog whistle to play along the (used to be) red wall. :wink:

"Oor Nikla" - a wee cringe there, nice touch. :wink:


Isn't that what your team call her? What's the wee cringe difference between me using the term 'Oor Nikla' and you describing Tories as 'these ********s'?

I see you've adopted the 'I'm going to criticise these bad guys for posing with flags and then offer no criticism of my guys with flags because they're the right kind of flags' defence. It's almost like it's completely hypocritical. Who said Starmer was above flag waiving? They're all the same and there's not a sliver of light between them when it comes to wrapping themselves in flags to promote the 'us and them' message. Pathetic really.

[JeMeSouviens]

Isn't that what your team call her? What's the wee cringe difference between me using the term 'Oor Nikla' and you describing Tories as 'these ********s'?

There's a hint of denigration of a Scottish working class voice. A strand of we're not quite good enough, let's get some toffs in to run the show runs right through Unionism. Not the same as (accurately) labelling Hancock and Johnson, where technically the correct term might actually be "******* ******* ****s".



I see you've adopted the 'I'm going to criticise these bad guys for posing with flags and then offer no criticism of my guys with flags because they're the right kind of flags' defence. It's almost like it's completely hypocritical. Who said Starmer was above flag waiving? They're all the same and there's not a sliver of light between them when it comes to wrapping themselves in flags to promote the 'us and them' message. Pathetic really.

Oh good, we agree. I don't expect to read any more on here about "because flags" or why I can't eat them then? :rolleyes:

[One Day Soon]

There's a hint of denigration of a Scottish working class voice. A strand of we're not quite good enough, let's get some toffs in to run the show runs right through Unionism. Not the same as (accurately) labelling Hancock and Johnson, where technically the correct term might actually be "******* ******* ****s".



Oh good, we agree. I don't expect to read any more on here about "because flags" or why I can't eat them then? :rolleyes:


Bull****. That's exactly how she is referred to by the mendicant faithful. If you don't like Surgeon being parodied with the language of her own followers - of all backgrounds - it's more than a little hypocritical to default to the 'all Tories are *******s' line yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean by Toffs. If you mean Etonians or similar perhaps you can point to when the last of any of those ran Scotland. If you mean the very wealthy then look no further than the current First Minister.

You still haven't criticised her for wrapping herself in flags and using that for the same divisive purpose as the others. Settle in for a long diet of 'because flags', it's what the entire movement is built upon and, co-incidentally, you can't eat them.

[ronaldo7]

Shurely shome mishtake, what’s this internationalist doing with that flag he can’t eat?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EtK4kuzXEAYl3Yf?format=jpg&name=large

Ah this is what he meant about reform UK. When did he join

"Scottish" labour members lapping it up.

[Keith_M]

As per usual, I'm confused. Where did the 'eating flags' stuff come from?

:dunno:


I vaguely remember a couple of people burning a Union Jack on the East Terrace in the early 80s, but I'm almost certain nobody ate one.

[hibsbollah]

Bull****. That's exactly how she is referred to by the mendicant faithful. If you don't like Surgeon being parodied with the language of her own followers - of all backgrounds - it's more than a little hypocritical to default to the 'all Tories are *******s' line yourself.

I'm not sure what you mean by Toffs. If you mean Etonians or similar perhaps you can point to when the last of any of those ran Scotland. If you mean the very wealthy then look no further than the current First Minister.

You still haven't criticised her for wrapping herself in flags and using that for the same divisive purpose as the others. Settle in for a long diet of 'because flags', it's what the entire movement is built upon and, co-incidentally, you can't eat them.

The frequency with which Labour are wrapping themselves in red white and blue swaddling clothes is remarkable, you cant have failed to notice. Even when there is no obvious rationale for it, eg the Lets Get The Nation Vaccinated campaign, which was just one big red union jack with the words superimposed on top. Vaccination shouldnt be about flag waving. By anyone.

This is new. Im sure we could both dig up the occasional image of Callaghan or Wilson or Blair or Kinnock with the union flag nearby, but Starmer is barely ever seen without one. Its deliberate strategy.

[Stairway 2 7]

There's a straight correlation between the more obsessed you are with your flag be it saltire, Union Jack, tricolour or star spangled banner and being an absolute nut job I've found

[Ozyhibby]

There's a straight correlation between the more obsessed you are with your flag be it saltire, Union Jack, tricolour or star spangled banner and being an absolute nut job I've found

Are you criticising Starmer for wrapping himself in the union flag?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/01/labour-scottish-independence-referendum-nicola-sturgeon-keir-starmer?__twitter_impression=true


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Stairway 2 7]

Are you criticising Starmer for wrapping himself in the union flag?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Aye looks like the ******** he is

[JeMeSouviens]

As per usual, I'm confused. Where did the 'eating flags' stuff come from?

:dunno:


I vaguely remember a couple of people burning a Union Jack on the East Terrace in the early 80s, but I'm almost certain nobody ate one.

Labourites such as ODS have this moral high ground thing where wanting Scottish independence can only ever be for identity reasons hence "because flags". Then because they are 100% convinced that Scotland would be an economic wasteland and also 100% convinced that Nats agree with this but want independence anyway, they take even higher moral ground where Nats are condemning the population to starvation, offering only flags to eat.

The reality is of course that identity and flags are just as strong (if not moreso) a factor on the Union side and that there are loads of Nats who couldn't give a **** about flags and actually want to reshape society believing that it will turn out better. But it's an easy put down when you can't be bothered arguing.

[Prof. Shaggy]

there's a straight correlation between the more obsessed you are with your flag be it saltire, union jack, tricolour or star spangled banner and being an absolute nut job i've found


agreed!

[Keith_M]

Labourites such as ODS have this moral high ground thing where wanting Scottish independence can only ever be for identity reasons hence "because flags". Then because they are 100% convinced that Scotland would be an economic wasteland and also 100% convinced that Nats agree with this but want independence anyway, they take even higher moral ground where Nats are condemning the population to starvation, offering only flags to eat.
....


Thanks. It was getting me confused

:aok:

[Keith_M]

Isn't it funny that we've now taken the infamous Flag Debates from the Main Board to The Holy Ground? We could at least turn it into a competion and make it interesting.

--------


"In today's DotNet special, we're going to have the 'Let Them Eat Cake Bake-Off'."


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. 4DL0i9sd7sPUAbQly8WwugHaC8%26pid%3DApi%26h%3D160&f=1


http://www.cakesbysiobhan.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/P1040400.jpg

[Moulin Yarns]

Labourites such as ODS have this moral high ground thing where wanting Scottish independence can only ever be for identity reasons hence "because flags". Then because they are 100% convinced that Scotland would be an economic wasteland and also 100% convinced that Nats agree with this but want independence anyway, they take even higher moral ground where Nats are condemning the population to starvation, offering only flags to eat.

The reality is of course that identity and flags are just as strong (if not moreso) a factor on the Union side and that there are loads of Nats who couldn't give a **** about flags and actually want to reshape society believing that it will turn out better. But it's an easy put down when you can't be bothered arguing.

An economic wasteland, like Estonia?


https://youtu.be/GqLJA7sXD-c

[Moulin Yarns]

Isn't it funny that we've now taken the infamous Flag Debates from the Main Board to The Holy Ground? We could at least turn it into a competion and make it interesting.

--------


"In today's DotNet special, we're going to have the 'Let Them Eat Cake Bake-Off'."


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. 4DL0i9sd7sPUAbQly8WwugHaC8%26pid%3DApi%26h%3D160&f=1


http://www.cakesbysiobhan.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/P1040400.jpg

Anyone want a flag debate?

https://twitter.com/saltire_3/status/1356615370656919556?s=19

😁

[CloudSquall]

Scottish Labour's opinion of nationalism depends on which border is used to define the nation in question.

If the border is just south of Gretna nationalism is the root of all evils with nazism the only possible outcome.

If the border in question is at Dover however nationalism is the most beautiful, poetic creation in the history of mankind where men and women link arms and sing while reminiscing about the London 2012 Olympics which represents the pinnacle of human achievement.


Another thing that always got me about the Scottish Labour argument that (paraphrasing) "a plumber in Glasgow has more in common with a plumber in Sunderland than a lord in Aberdeenshire" is ok, fair enough, however what about a plumber in Dublin? Is a full political union needed with Ireland?

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Has anyone made the national socialists jibe yet?

[hibsbollah]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I listen to Elgots podcast every week. A bit sad that it required a leak for her to discuss what has been blatantly obvious since the Autumn.

[Keith_M]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other


I was just reading that, and thought it ironic, given some of our resident Labour Voters comments.

'Labour must make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters, according to a leaked internal strategy presentation.'
...
'The strategy warns the party to brace for a backlash from “Scots and younger remain voters”, especially ahead of the Holyrood elections in May.'

...no ****, Sherlock!

[ronaldo7]

Has anyone made the national socialists jibe yet?

Politics Joe will get round to it soon enough, meantime I don't think Sir Keir likes what they've done here.

https://davidhencke.com/2021/02/01/after-sending-up-boris-johnson-joe-politics-turns-on-keir-starmer/

[JeMeSouviens]

I was just reading that, and thought it ironic, given some of our resident Labour Voters comments.

'Labour must make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters, according to a leaked internal strategy presentation.'
...
'The strategy warns the party to brace for a backlash from “Scots and younger remain voters”, especially ahead of the Holyrood elections in May.'

...no ****, Sherlock!

“Focus grouped from Watford to Grimsby”. Sounds like the chat about winning back Scotland has been abandoned?

[ronaldo7]

“Focus grouped from Watford to Grimsby”. Sounds like the chat about winning back Scotland has been abandoned?

They went to Grimsby to get some wind in their sails. Anyone heard from the Labour 1?:wink:

[Glory Lurker]

Another thing that always got me about the Scottish Labour argument that (paraphrasing) "a plumber in Glasgow has more in common with a plumber in Sunderland than a lord in Aberdeenshire" is ok, fair enough

You're more charitable than I am!

What I don't understand is that they only run this out in Scotland. Were they giving it the reverse in Sunderland to try to defeat the wave of British/English nationalism that saw Sunderland vote 61% leave and help haul Scotland over the cliff? Was this what they were saying on the doorsteps in the "red wall" when the next wave was foaming up?

[Hibrandenburg]

Politics Joe will get round to it soon enough, meantime I don't think Sir Keir likes what they've done here.

https://davidhencke.com/2021/02/01/after-sending-up-boris-johnson-joe-politics-turns-on-keir-starmer/

Ouch!

[Mr Grieves]

Politics Joe will get round to it soon enough, meantime I don't think Sir Keir likes what they've done here.

https://davidhencke.com/2021/02/01/after-sending-up-boris-johnson-joe-politics-turns-on-keir-starmer/

:greengrin

[G B Young]

I was just reading that, and thought it ironic, given some of our resident Labour Voters comments.

'Labour must make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters, according to a leaked internal strategy presentation.'
...
'The strategy warns the party to brace for a backlash from “Scots and younger remain voters”, especially ahead of the Holyrood elections in May.'

...no ****, Sherlock!

Echoes of Cameron at PMQs telling Corbyn to "put on proper suit, do up your tie and sing the national anthem".

[G B Young]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/feb/02/labour-urged-to-focus-on-flag-and-patriotism-to-win-voters-trust-leak-reveals?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

For all the claims in there that this is a 'third party' recommendation and not yet official Labour strategy, the prominence of the union flag in Starmer's latest broadcast would seem to indicate it's a big part of their thinking going forward. I know Blair appeared in front of the flag regularly when he was PM, but it strikes me as less usual for a Labour opposition leader to do so.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

I'm 42, I'd hate to wager when we might see Labour back in office, I could be well into my 50s.

Mini Me Tories, pathetic.

If the UK did indeed break up then England would be a one party state for a very long time, much the way that the US would be forever Democrat if it were not for the Electoral College.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm 42, I'd hate to wager when we might see Labour back in office, I could be well into my 50s.

Mini Me Tories, pathetic.

If the UK did indeed break up then England would be a one party state for a very long time, much the way that the US would be forever Democrat if it were not for the Electoral College.

Politics would evolve in England, in a democracy there's always a need for an opposition and one would form one way or the other.

[One Day Soon]

The frequency with which Labour are wrapping themselves in red white and blue swaddling clothes is remarkable, you cant have failed to notice. Even when there is no obvious rationale for it, eg the Lets Get The Nation Vaccinated campaign, which was just one big red union jack with the words superimposed on top. Vaccination shouldnt be about flag waving. By anyone.

This is new. Im sure we could both dig up the occasional image of Callaghan or Wilson or Blair or Kinnock with the union flag nearby, but Starmer is barely ever seen without one. Its deliberate strategy.


Looks like you were spot on and it doesn't come as a great surprise given the chain of evidence. A testament to the dulled down, crass politics of our times where wrapping yourself in flags is regarded as a substitute for serious political thought and engagement. We've had 13 years of that up here of course and seen it in spades from across the Atlantic throughout the Trump era, but if Starmer is going to try to outbid the Tories on their own ground (always, always, always a stupid idea - exactly like trying to compete with the Nats on independence and indyrefs) he's going to need some pretty chewy policy differences to mark the contrast.

I'll take a fair bit of what is in the agency's report with a large pinch of salt but you can see that they've thought 'the flag bit is easy, let's start doing that'. The problem with these kinds of agencies and these kinds of reports is that they are very good at surveying but completely abject at politics. 'These are the questions we asked and these are the replies we got' is one thing, 'here are some suggested policies or responses to what we heard' is almost always a tragi-comic other thing.

Covid and its consequences are opening the door to a genuine debate about what kind of society and country we want and need to be in a much more legitimate and resonant way than anything that has preceded it for perhaps almost a hundred years. The context isn't going to be one in which politicians and parties lecture at and above substantially indifferent voters about how society should be changed, it's going to be one where voters living through stark enforced changes in their lives in almost every way imaginable are going to be way more receptive to talking and hearing about how we can collectively meet those changes to genuinely 'build back better'. Wasting this opportunity for a radical politics would be unforgiveable and right now every political party and leader in this country is failing to take that opportunity.

We live in a time where we need political giants but we are being served by political pygmies. To put it another way, responding to a national and international crisis with politics rooted in national identity is like letting an enraged chimp loose in a china shop - things will happen, but not good things.

[hibsbollah]

Looks like you were spot on and it doesn't come as a great surprise given the chain of evidence. A testament to the dulled down, crass politics of our times where wrapping yourself in flags is regarded as a substitute for serious political thought and engagement. We've had 13 years of that up here of course and seen it in spades from across the Atlantic throughout the Trump era, but if Starmer is going to try to outbid the Tories on their own ground (always, always, always a stupid idea - exactly like trying to compete with the Nats on independence and indyrefs) he's going to need some pretty chewy policy differences to mark the contrast.

I'll take a fair bit of what is in the agency's report with a large pinch of salt but you can see that they've thought 'the flag bit is easy, let's start doing that'. The problem with these kinds of agencies and these kinds of reports is that they are very good at surveying but completely abject at politics. 'These are the questions we asked and these are the replies we got' is one thing, 'here are some suggested policies or responses to what we heard' is almost always a tragi-comic other thing.

Covid and its consequences are opening the door to a genuine debate about what kind of society and country we want and need to be in a much more legitimate and resonant way than anything that has preceded it for perhaps almost a hundred years. The context isn't going to be one in which politicians and parties lecture at and above substantially indifferent voters about how society should be changed, it's going to be one where voters living through stark enforced changes in their lives in almost every way imaginable are going to be way more receptive to talking and hearing about how we can collectively meet those changes to genuinely 'build back better'. Wasting this opportunity for a radical politics would be unforgiveable and right now every political party and leader in this country is failing to take that opportunity.

We live in a time where we need political giants but we are being served by political pygmies. To put it another way, responding to a national and international crisis with politics rooted in national identity is like letting an enraged chimp loose in a china shop - things will happen, but not good things.

Agree, good points.

The other thing that happens with focus groups (which is all these ‘presentations’ actually are, rebranded focus group exercises from 20 years ago, The Thick of It springs to mind immediately), is that a kind of sophistry develops where the ‘ordinary member of the public’ regurgitate cliches and narratives that they’ve heard elsewhere before (Starmer is a strength, unclear messaging is a weakness, we don’t know what they stand for) and although sometimes the OMOTP genuinely believes these things, often it’s just not wanting to be seen as ill informed or otherwise out of step. Basic psychology. Don’t look like a dick in front of clever people.

So we have the prospect of Angela Rayner wetting herself over Captain Tom ‘He was truly the very best of us’, spitfires, white cliffs of dover and Nick Thomas Symonds banging on about quarantining foreigners and ‘these shores’.

[Keith_M]

For all the claims in there that this is a 'third party' recommendation and not yet official Labour strategy, the prominence of the union flag in Starmer's latest broadcast would seem to indicate it's a big part of their thinking going forward. I know Blair appeared in front of the flag regularly when he was PM, but it strikes me as less usual for a Labour opposition leader to do so.


Blair was very much a product of his PR machine but I agree, I don't really remember him trying to appeal to nationalism in this way.

I wonder when we'll see Kier Starmer sitting on a tank.

[Keith_M]

...

We live in a time where we need political giants but we are being served by political pygmies. To put it another way, responding to a national and international crisis with politics rooted in national identity is like letting an enraged chimp loose in a china shop - things will happen, but not good things.


Totally agree with this.

:aok:

[cabbageandribs1875]

https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/145382153_456010882199192_9048670002851681825_o.jp g?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=APbH--uwqkUAX-MdI26&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=4b31b7e095a019a80d58e43edf2e5f95&oe=60413D56


the chairs circle for £400+/month, oh joy


all those circles

[G B Young]

Seems a bit bizarre he would misunderstand this. Not watched PMQs for a couple of years but they always struck me as pretty much pre-scripted:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55924153

[SHODAN]

I was just reading that, and thought it ironic, given some of our resident Labour Voters comments.

'Labour must make “use of the [union] flag, veterans [and] dressing smartly” as part of a radical rebranding to help it win back the trust of disillusioned voters, according to a leaked internal strategy presentation.'
...
'The strategy warns the party to brace for a backlash from “Scots and younger remain voters”, especially ahead of the Holyrood elections in May.'

...no ****, Sherlock!

What the **** are both main parties going to do when Millennials/Gen Z can swing an election by themselves? I'd love to see the rebranding effort, particularly from the Tories. And no, we won't get more right wing as we get older as that involves accumulating capital of which most of us have and will continue to have **** all.

Hopefully it won't matter up here because we won't be voting in it.