Why did Hibs fail to build on the Famous Five era?

[G B Young]

Anyone on here old enough to have seen the Famous Five play?

Older relatives have told me of the days they used to start queuing as far back as Easter Road to get into the ground, while crowds of 30-40 thousand were a regular occurrence, rising to over 50 thousand for visits by Rangers, and even 65,000 against Hearts (with seemingly a lot more in the ground than the official attendance given).

Hibs were a huge draw in that era, with Gordon Smith in particular drawing crowds across the country just to see him play. With three Scottish titles in five seasons, they were undoubtedly the club's greatest days and as such there must have been a lot of cash coming in. How, though, was it invested (if at all) and why did Hibs fail to build a foundation to maintain their stature at the top of the Scottish game?

I know from reading interviews with players of the time that Hibs were on top-dollar win bonuses which were the envy of other clubs, but that can't have accounted for all the money. Different era I guess, when stadium improvements, club merchandise and long-term thinking simply didn't come into the equation. However, in hindsight it seems a wasted opportunity to build something great and lasting.

[Hibbyradge]

Football was the draw, not just Hibs.

Third Lanark were getting over 30000.

In terms of real success, in its entire history, only 9 teams outwith the OF have ever won the league and only on about 18 occassions between them.

[CropleyWasGod]

Anyone on here old enough to have seen the Famous Five play?

Older relatives have told me of the days they used to start queuing as far back as Easter Road to get into the ground, while crowds of 30-40 thousand were a regular occurrence, rising to over 50 thousand for visits by Rangers, and even 65,000 against Hearts (with seemingly a lot more in the ground than the official attendance given).

Hibs were a huge draw in that era, with Gordon Smith in particular drawing crowds across the country just to see him play. With three Scottish titles in five seasons, they were undoubtedly the club's greatest days and as such there must have been a lot of cash coming in. How, though, was it invested (if at all) and why did Hibs fail to build a foundation to maintain their stature at the top of the Scottish game?

I know from reading interviews with players of the time that Hibs were on top-dollar win bonuses which were the envy of other clubs, but that can't have accounted for all the money. Different era I guess, when stadium improvements, club mercandise and long-term thinking simply didn't come into the equation. However, in hindsight it seems a wasted opportunity to build something great and lasting.
What "great and lasting " things should have been built?

Apart from the doubling of the East Terrace, which was built on the back of the FF success.

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[bigwheel]

What an interesting thread ...I guess in the cyclical nature of football teams , they did in a way . The early 70s Turnbull team was as good as almost any European team for a couple of years ..if Celtic hadn't been arguably one of the best teams in Europe we would have won a title or two ..it was the change of money into the game - firstly keeping home gates and then sponsorship and TV that has created an inequality across our league - oh and some very poor managers !

[Ozyhibby]

A willingness to sell our best players rather than pay them more?


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[KWJ]

Players that came in to replace them weren't as good with the exception of Joe Baker along with the emergence of other clubs strong teams like Hearts, Dundee and Kilmarnock.

[Waxy]

Wonder the cost for entry to football matches compairs from now to the FF era? The percentage of folks wages it cost for entry?

[jacomo]

A willingness to sell our best players rather than pay them more?


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I blame Petrie.

:rolleyes:

[ancient hibee]

Say a home gate after division with the away club maybe £1000 and then not as much from the majority of away games,call it £700.Hibs had a lot of players certainly over 40 maybe 50. Call the wage bill at least £600 a week doesn't leave a huge amount to splash around particularly as there would be nothing coming in(unless an overseas tour made a profit)between early April and early August.

[Peevemor]

What an interesting thread ...I guess in the cyclical nature of football teams , they did in a way . The early 70s turn ill tram was as good as almost any European team for a couple of years ..if Celtic hadn't been arguably one of the best teams in Europe we would have won a title or two ..it was the change of money into the game - firstly keeping home Hayes and then sponsorship and TV that has created an inequality across our league - oh and some very poor managers !
I think predictive text is the main culprit.

[G B Young]

What "great and lasting " things should have been built?

Apart from the doubling of the East Terrace, which was built on the back of the FF success.

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The terracing extension was built to accommodate bigger crowds and must therefore have paid for itself pretty quickly, before becoming a bit of a white elephant as the success faded away.

I'm just speculating that had this success occurred in a different era, perhaps the club would have been able to adopt a longer term vision and invest for the future rather than enjoying the here and now and hoping the good times would just keep rolling.

[G B Young]

A willingness to sell our best players rather than pay them more?


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That wasn't the case back then. Hibs knew what a box office draw the Famous Five were and only Bobby Johnstone was sold at a time when he still had quite a few years left in the game (OK Gordon Smith went on to win another two league titles with Hearts and Dundee but he was pretty much unique in terms of his longevity at the top level). Reilly, Turnbull and Ormond (I think) finished their playing careers at Hibs. As I mentioned, guys like Reilly have talked about how the win bonuses were better than at any other club and that helped to keep the team together for longer than such a talented bunch would stick around at ER today.

[superfurryhibby]

It's fair to say that no Scottish team has been able to sustain a threat to the Glasgow clubs. A few have had a several years of success, but none managed to build upon it. The inherrent factors must be related to the money through the gates, the wider appeal of the Old Firm in attracting players and retaining them.

It's probably fair to say that the last 25 years have seen the gulf grow even wider, probably unbridgeable. Tv revenues, changes to how gate money is distributed are all factors.

[Lago]

It was a totally different era. My father in law, a miner from Durham, had been in the army from 1940 & was captured in Normandy a week after D day. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW in Poland. Returning home to his Scots wife and baby daughter, my wife he immediately started work down the Ladt Victoria Pit.
As he explained to me the country was desperate for entertainment & football was the working mans outlet, so big big crowds throughout the game with Hibs fortunate to have the FF come together at that time, also as he pointed out men worked 5 &1/2 days a week plus there was no competition from other leisure activities.
As he said to me 'I was lucky to see Gordon Smith'
Different days different age, it will not return, we have to enjoy what we have now.

[Baker9]

There is quite a simple answer. The directors creamed off the money and became individually very wealthy during that time.

[Baker9]

What "great and lasting " things should have been built?

Apart from the doubling of the East Terrace, which was built on the back of the FF success.

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Decent toilets?

[greenpaper55]

I think back then gates were split 50-50 so big crowds but the home team only got half of it ! if Hibs had managed to get 30,000 for every home game they might have been able to buy quality but crowds dropped as the performances dropped, another case of you have to speculate to accumulate which Mr Swann was not going to do.

[Itsnoteasy]

There is quite a simple answer. The directors creamed off the money and became individually very wealthy during that time.

I bet they did. All cash back then. Bet a few were knocked of the official attendance to line their pockets

[Itsnoteasy]

I think back then gates were split 50-50 so big crowds but the home team only got half of it ! if Hibs had managed to get 30,000 for every home game they might have been able to buy quality but crowds dropped as the performances dropped, another case of you have to speculate to accumulate which Mr Swann was not going to do.

Tom Hart did wi Best. Must have made his cash back in 1st game

[brog]

It was a totally different era. My father in law, a miner from Durham, had been in the army from 1940 & was captured in Normandy a week after D day. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW in Poland. Returning home to his Scots wife and baby daughter, my wife he immediately started work down the Ladt Victoria Pit.
As he explained to me the country was desperate for entertainment & football was the working mans outlet, so big big crowds throughout the game with Hibs fortunate to have the FF come together at that time, also as he pointed out men worked 5 &1/2 days a week plus there was no competition from other leisure activities.
As he said to me 'I was lucky to see Gordon Smith'
Different days different age, it will not return, we have to enjoy what we have now.

That really sums it up. In the 20 years between the wars only one non OF team won the league. In the 20 years after WW2 we won 3, should have been more, & Yams, Dundee, Aberdeen & Killie all won titles. Celtc were not a force at all post war but as other forms of entertainment flourished, football crowds dwindled & the uglies regained their economic advantage.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Interesting thread
On Tom Hart
Tom did attempt to break the Old Firm dominance, as Aberdeen did and Dundee Utd to an extent later on (winning Leagues and Cups)

Its been said many times, had The Tornadoes not been "broken up" when they were,who knows what might have been.
I believe they could have won more trophies including the league title.
Eddie Turnbull certainly believed that changes needed to be made to match Celtic after suffering Cup and league defeats to them in the early days.
Celtic were on their 9 in a row of course back then, But they were going through changes too.
Rangers strengthened and stopped Celtic reaching 10
Hibernian finished 2nd to Rangers (74/75) as they did the previous year to Celtic.
Like the late 50s
Hibs did not build on that.
Eddie Turnbull shredded the team ,mercilessly (and i loved Eddie )
But he did, sad to say.

Aberdeen and Dundee Utd are the only two clubs since then to beat the Old Firm to titles.

Alas... what might have been.

Back to Tom Hart...

He gave his all to the club.
He loved the Hibs.
Best chairman in my time at the club
(Jimmy O'Rourke's words.. not mine)

I hope this link works (On Tom Hart)
Its his obituary printed in the Glasgow Herald (note the author!)

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19820310&id=8v89AAAAIBAJ&sjid=fkkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3015,2802732&hl=en


Glory!! Glory!!

[G B Young]

Interesting thread
On Tom Hart
Tom did attempt to break the Old Firm dominance, as Aberdeen did and Dundee Utd to an extent later on (winning Leagues and Cups)

Its been said many times, had The Tornadoes not been "broken up" when they were,who knows what might have been.
I believe they could have won more trophies including the league title.
Eddie Turnbull certainly believed that changes needed to be made to match Celtic after suffering Cup and league defeats to them in the early days.
Celtic were on their 9 in a row of course back then, But they were going through changes too.
Rangers strengthened and stopped Celtic reaching 10
Hibernian finished 2nd to Rangers (74/75) as they did the previous year to Celtic.
Like the late 50s
Hibs did not build on that.
Eddie Turnbull shredded the team ,mercilessly (and i loved Eddie )
But he did, sad to say.

Aberdeen and Dundee Utd are the only two clubs since then to beat the Old Firm to titles.

Alas... what might have been.

Back to Tom Hart...

He gave his all to the club.
He loved the Hibs.
Best chairman in my time at the club
(Jimmy O'Rourke's words.. not mine)

I hope this link works (On Tom Hart)
Its his obituary printed in the Glasgow Herald (note the author!)

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19820310&id=8v89AAAAIBAJ&sjid=fkkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3015,2802732&hl=en


Glory!! Glory!!

Thanks for posting that obituary. Hard to believe Tom Hart was only 60 when he died. I was obviously a lot younger myself back then but in my mind's eye he was a lot older than that.

And what's that bit about Hibs buying the stadium from the council? When was it ever council-owned?

As for Turnbull I think you're right. In hindsight if he'd stuck with the bulk of the Tornadoes for another couple of seasons Celtic were coming to the end of their finest era and we might just have pipped them to a title. It had taken a long time to get Hibs back into a position where we were once again title challengers and Eddie let his frustration at not quite doing it get the better of him and broke that team up too quickly. I know we continued to finish in the top 3 or 4 for a few more years as well as reaching the 79 cup final but the club was at the start of a long decline from about 1976 onwards. Like you, I was a big Turnbull fan but a change of manager around that time might have been a shrewd move.

The mention of Kenny Waugh at the end of that obituary also makes you kind of wish he'd been successful in buying Hearts. Loathsome as he was, Mercer did a far better job at Hearts than Kenny did at Hibs and had Waugh bought Hearts I think they'd have rattled aimlessly around the lower leagues for long enough to see them finally put out of their misery!

[Mr White]

It had taken a long time to get Hibs back into a position where we were once again title challengers

Not really. We were on course in 65 till Stein hopped on over to the lesser greens. Although we failed to win the league again I think you're overlooking some of Hibs achievements in the 10 years or so after the famous five last played together: first British team in Europe, the emergence of young talent like baker, Stanton, O'Rourke... beating Barcelona in the Fairs Cup, sticking 5 past Dino Zoff, building a team worthy of honours under Jock Stein etc etc.

In hindsight we could have done better in the late 50s but outside of the old firm no Scottish club has been able to sustain success for longer than a few years. Us in the early 50s, hearts in the late 50's and Aberdeen in the 80s are the closest anyone has got to it sadly.

[ihibs7]

I think the key element was the death of Willie McCartney. All the infrastructure that had been built up in the previous decade started to unravel.

Some of it is cyclical, but it pains me to say it, some of it is just luck. If jock stein had stayed on for another month we may well have done the double in 1965.

The amazing bit is that the famous five were two games away from winning the first European cup. Fine sporting margins. If we'd won that, or indeed the fairs cup I'd guess history could have been very different.


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[lord bunberry]

The famous five didn't have David Gray and they didn't win the Scottish cup. We did build and we conquered.

[superfurryhibby]

I think the key element was the death of Willie McCartney. All the infrastructure that had been built up in the previous decade started to unravel.

Some of it is cyclical, but it pains me to say it, some of it is just luck. If jock stein had stayed on for another month we may well have done the double in 1965.

The amazing bit is that the famous five were two games away from winning the first European cup. Fine sporting margins. If we'd won that, or indeed the fairs cup I'd guess history could have been very different.


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Mc Cartney died before Hibs won their first title, Hugh Shaw steered Hibs to two more and two second places thereafter, that's a heck of an unravelling.

[bigwheel]

I think predictive text is the main culprit.

IPhone typing :)


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[IberianHibernian]

Not really. We were on course in 65 till Stein hopped on over to the lesser greens. Although we failed to win the league again I think you're overlooking some of Hibs achievements in the 10 years or so after the famous five last played together: first British team in Europe, the emergence of young talent like baker, Stanton, O'Rourke... beating Barcelona in the Fairs Cup, sticking 5 past Dino Zoff, building a team worthy of honours under Jock Stein etc etc.

In hindsight we could have done better in the late 50s but outside of the old firm no Scottish club has been able to sustain success for longer than a few years. Us in the early 50s, hearts in the late 50's and Aberdeen in the 80s are the closest anyone has got to it sadly.Before my time but 1965 was a long time after our last league title and were we not nearly relegated in 1962 or 1963 ? 5 past Zoff was late 60s so even more time after our last league title . So we had a decade with little success ( pity about SC final defeat in 1958 ) then hit a good spell in mid 60s which was an exciting time for Scottish football with clubs like Dunfermline and Killie doing well in Europe . Jock Stein`s impact at Dunfermline , Hibs and Celtic was massive - if he hadn`t become a manager , things would have been very different for a lot of clubs .

[Mr White]

The ff last played together in 55 though, 10 years before Stein and 12 years before the Napoli game. GB Young seemed to be measuring things from when Bobby Johnstone left so that's why I mentioned those things in relation to his comment that the early 70s was the first time we'd challenged in a long time.

Yes we had some bad times inbetween too but that didn't suit my point so I ignored it :greengrin

[ancient hibee]

From the late 50s until Stein arrived we had many good players(some like Joe brilliant)but we had poor teams.Stein made a huge difference in that respect.Shankly was a good manager but Celtic had started their journey.

[brog]

Before my time but 1965 was a long time after our last league title and were we not nearly relegated in 1962 or 1963 ? 5 past Zoff was late 60s so even more time after our last league title . So we had a decade with little success ( pity about SC final defeat in 1958 ) then hit a good spell in mid 60s which was an exciting time for Scottish football with clubs like Dunfermline and Killie doing well in Europe . Jock Stein`s impact at Dunfermline , Hibs and Celtic was massive - if he hadn`t become a manager , things would have been very different for a lot of clubs .

Yep in 62/63 season we went 5 months without winning a league match then won our last 3 to avoid relegation. We definitely had a chance of the double in 64/65 but Stein's departure scuppered that. We actually finished 4th but not as bad as Yams who lost out on goal average on the last day to Killie. Yams actually lost 7-1 at home to Dundee just a few weeks earlier, if they'd only lost 7-2 they would have won the league!!! Of course 21 years later, Dundee did it again!!

[ancient hibee]

Yep in 62/63 season we went 5 months without winning a league match then won our last 3 to avoid relegation. We definitely had a chance of the double in 64/65 but Stein's departure scuppered that. We actually finished 4th but not as bad as Yams who lost out on goal average on the last day to Killie. Yams actually lost 7-1 at home to Dundee just a few weeks earlier, if they'd only lost 7-2 they would have won the league!!! Of course 21 years later, Dundee did it again!!

In the 7-1 game the Hearts goal was an own goal by Cousin.I was working and went for a Pink.A Hearts supporter in the office asked me the score and then who scored the one.I said Cousin and he was dancing around until I put him right.Simple pleasures.
We also scored a goal that was miles offside when they beat us 5-3 so that also might have made the difference.

[ihibs7]

Mc Cartney died before Hibs won their first title, Hugh Shaw steered Hibs to two more and two second places thereafter, that's a heck of an unravelling.

McCartney died 48, last league title was won in 52 with a squad where certainly the key players - if not all - had been signed by McCartney.

Without the supply of players that we had over the previous decade we stalled quickly and went backwards at a rate of not afterwards, I feel.


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[G B Young]

Not really. We were on course in 65 till Stein hopped on over to the lesser greens. Although we failed to win the league again I think you're overlooking some of Hibs achievements in the 10 years or so after the famous five last played together: first British team in Europe, the emergence of young talent like baker, Stanton, O'Rourke... beating Barcelona in the Fairs Cup, sticking 5 past Dino Zoff, building a team worthy of honours under Jock Stein etc etc.

In hindsight we could have done better in the late 50s but outside of the old firm no Scottish club has been able to sustain success for longer than a few years. Us in the early 50s, hearts in the late 50's and Aberdeen in the 80s are the closest anyone has got to it sadly.

No question there were some fantastic achievements and players in those years. Imagine putting five past Napoli or beating Barcelona and Real Madrid now? As someone else has pointed out, if that European Cup debut had come just a couple of years earlier when the Famous Five side were still at their peak the Lisbon Lions might have been living in Hibs' shadow...

My point was more in relation to the consistency of a title challenge and I'm pretty sure that season under Stein was the only one where we seriously threatened during those years, whereas under Turnbull we finished top two or three pretty consistently until the mid to late 70s.

[HoboHarry]

This whole discussion could have been avoided if we had just built a 400,001 capacity stadium in 1875. That would have kept the maroon balloons quiet in all of the intervening years and I blame Rod Petrie for not making it happening.

:wink:

[Brizo]

Anyone on here old enough to have seen the Famous Five play?

Older relatives have told me of the days they used to start queuing as far back as Easter Road to get into the ground, while crowds of 30-40 thousand were a regular occurrence, rising to over 50 thousand for visits by Rangers, and even 65,000 against Hearts (with seemingly a lot more in the ground than the official attendance given).

Hibs were a huge draw in that era, with Gordon Smith in particular drawing crowds across the country just to see him play. With three Scottish titles in five seasons, they were undoubtedly the club's greatest days and as such there must have been a lot of cash coming in. How, though, was it invested (if at all) and why did Hibs fail to build a foundation to maintain their stature at the top of the Scottish game?

I know from reading interviews with players of the time that Hibs were on top-dollar win bonuses which were the envy of other clubs, but that can't have accounted for all the money. Different era I guess, when stadium improvements, club merchandise and long-term thinking simply didn't come into the equation. However, in hindsight it seems a wasted opportunity to build something great and lasting.

I think there were a number of reasons why Hibs were such a big draw in that era. Obviously the football was first but there was a huge post WW11 factor where servicemen returning from the War were looking for escapism. Most working men also worked Saturday mornings so it was natural for men regardless of their own football affinities to all head to the game together. Add in in an absence of everything we take for granted today , televised sport, all day pub opening , the recreational mobility brought about by mass car ownership etc etc and football was one of the few entertainments available.

That combination of factors was never going to be repeated and so the crowds you quote were very much a product of their times. As for the custodians of that era building a foundation for the club going forward things we take for granted now such as training centres and football academies or all seated stadium facilities wouldn't have been remotely on the radar of any chairmen back then. Its not that many years ago that we were training on public parks and the gents toilet facilities at ER were pishing against a wall at the back of the old East terracing.

I think that Hibs were probably as innovative and forward looking as anyone else in that era. As other have mentioned the club added an upper tier to the East terracing and I'm pretty sure we were innovators in having floodlights installed (though I might be wrong on that)

[The Falcon]

At the time there was a maximum wage that could be paid to footballers so there was little financial benefit to moving club, and european clubs had other issues to deal with. This maximum wage was abolished in 1961 with one Jimmy Hill particularly involved.

If the Five were around today they would each have been multi millionaires and probably at Hibs for about five minutes.

[brog]

Essentially for a period after WW2 there was an economically level playing field. The benefits were also seen in England, in the 10 years after WW2, 8 different clubs won the league. In the first 12 years of the EPL (as it is now ) only Blackburn interrupted the Man U/Arsenal duopoly & even with Leicester's achievement last season only 6 teams have won the top league in 23 years. There were huge crowds there also, Charlton's ground at The Valley was strikingly similar to ER & IIRC hosted crowds of around 70,000, A truly golden era for football.

[Finn2015]

Wouldn't get at the club to much about this, little can be done when people get buses and trains to parkhead or Ibrox rather than watch local clubs. Even see OF supporters clubs in Edinburgh and Leith! I do think thiugh the club have let themselves down in failing to consolidate and not achieving consistency. I've always thought that after the OF, the next 'biggest' clubs in the country are us, hearts and Aberdeen. We should be a regular top half of the table club in the top league. That we have found ourselves at time in the second tier is to me shocking

[Ronniekirk]

We will simply never see thier likes Again but thier Memory Historymarches on
The chances of any team bringing through that many naturally gifted and talented players at one time (particularlly forward players who can score goals and hang on to them in the modern game is ziltch)
Football was King in those days and the main sporting and y social outlet for the working classes to go to

We were a forward thinking club ahead of our time , in those days but have no idea if that played a part in scouting these five
My Father went t to see them with my Uncle and thats the reason i support Hibs so i am indedited to tthier Legacy
Why did t we build on the sucsess of the 2007! CIS Cup win is another debate given the decline we entered into after making something llike 7 . 8 million in one season from sucess and selling key players too quickly without replacing them with quality
The dynamics of key backroom staff and baving a structure with the right people in the right roles is key Lee Ann has shown that but sadly in the Championship for three years
But look at St Mirren They are making short term decisions to try and get promoted and its not working

[ancient hibee]

At the time there was a maximum wage that could be paid to footballers so there was little financial benefit to moving club, and european clubs had other issues to deal with. This maximum wage was abolished in 1961 with one Jimmy Hill particularly involved.

If the Five were around today they would each have been multi millionaires and probably at Hibs for about five minutes.

There never was a maximum wage in Scotland so prior to 1961 there was even less reason to move south.

[G B Young]

There never was a maximum wage in Scotland so prior to 1961 there was even less reason to move south.

And as I mentioned earlier, the win bonuses at Easter Road were unmatched. According to Lawrie Reilly Hibs were on £100 each while Rangers were on £20.