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21.05.2016
25-08-2016, 06:21 PM
Worth a wee watch I think. Bit about the Hands off Hibs campaign.

GreenNWhiteArmy
25-08-2016, 06:41 PM
Thanks for reminding me. I'm heading out and would totally have forgotten.

Also class of 92 - out of their league is on at 9pm as well so will be recording both

tamig
25-08-2016, 06:47 PM
Looking forward to it. Been plugged heavily on Sportsound tonight and looking forward to seeing the HOH stuff. Will never forget that time and will never forgive the FTB. I will also never slag the song dedicated to said individual.

Spike Mandela
25-08-2016, 06:49 PM
Be intetesting to see how the Beeb fudge or ignore the Sevco/liquidation/new club situation. Other than Stuart Cosgrove I can't see any of the current BBC sevco apologists or guys like Archie McPherson approaching it honestly.

The Harp
25-08-2016, 06:49 PM
If tonight's Sportsound is anything to go by there'll be more emphasis on Mo Johnston signing for the club that was rangers, than on the near death of Hibernian. Ridiculous if so.

tamig
25-08-2016, 06:52 PM
If tonight's Sportsound is anything to go by there'll be more emphasis on Mo Johnston signing for the club that was rangers, than on the near death of Hibernian. Ridiculous if so.

Nah, I thought they gave us a good plug although Tom English got the two Davids mixed up. Archie didn't hold back on his views of Mercer.

The Harp
25-08-2016, 06:58 PM
Mmm, let's wait and see.

northstandhibby
25-08-2016, 07:06 PM
Be intetesting to see how the Beeb fudge or ignore the Sevco/liquidation/new club situation. Other than Stuart Cosgrove I can't see any of the current BBC sevco apologists or guys like Archie McPherson approaching it honestly.

They've given a narrative of the Souness/Murray years as a pivotal transitional period in the Scottish game in adverts for the programs. Surely they must go into how that ended with EBTs and eventually Liquidation.

Won't hold my breath though.






Mon the Cabbage

Kato
25-08-2016, 07:30 PM
They've given a narrative of the Souness/Murray years as a pivotal transitional period in the Scottish game in adverts for the programs. Surely they must go into how that ended with EBTs and eventually Liquidation.

Won't hold my breath though.






Mon the Cabbage


Souness's strategy led Scottish football to the staleness it sees today but Auntie McBeeb usually lauds that era as some sort of salad days. He copied AC Milan when he should have been looking to Ajax. An idiot of a man.

Will be interesting to see how they portray the "merger".

Bristolhibby
25-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Worth a wee watch I think. Bit about the Hands off Hibs campaign.

Nice one. Taping it from France with the wonders of modern technology.

(Recognises the irony of still calling it "taping").

J

northstandhibby
25-08-2016, 07:47 PM
Souness's strategy led Scottish football to the staleness it sees today but Auntie McBeeb usually lauds that era as some sort of salad days. He copied AC Milan when he should have been looking to Ajax. An idiot of a man.

Will be interesting to see how they portray the "merger".

:top marks






Mon the Cabbage

Pretty Boy
25-08-2016, 08:04 PM
2 minutes in and a '**** off you fat barsteward' from me as Jim Traynors smug face fills the screen.

HibbiesandtheBaddies
25-08-2016, 08:07 PM
Souness: "we lit a fire..."

Aye, but ye were burnin £20 notes ya fud.

SteveHFC
25-08-2016, 08:08 PM
Did the rangers fans get fined for their pitch invasion back then?

Mon Dieu4
25-08-2016, 08:09 PM
Did the rangers fans get fined for their pitch invasion back then?

No, they ripped down the goals to protect their players

.Sean.
25-08-2016, 08:10 PM
That canny be over exuberant rangers supporters invading the Pittidrie pitch is it?

Broken Gnome
25-08-2016, 08:11 PM
Traynor AND Butcher inside the first five minutes, jings.

Alex Trager
25-08-2016, 08:14 PM
Littered with total ****s so far

pacoluna
25-08-2016, 08:15 PM
Traynor AND Butcher inside the first five minutes, jings.

Don't forget malpas

Broken Gnome
25-08-2016, 08:20 PM
Don't forget malpas

I hadn't reached him yet.

Nice to see where he got his own coaching ethos from eh.

pacoluna
25-08-2016, 08:24 PM
No mention of farmer?

Cabbage East
25-08-2016, 08:27 PM
Rot Wallace.

21.05.2016
25-08-2016, 08:37 PM
Murray much like like Romanov at hearts. Cheat and rob to make their fans think they are bigger than what they are

JeMeSouviens
25-08-2016, 08:38 PM
Eskillsson!

Loadypish but that was a great moment.

21.05.2016
25-08-2016, 08:47 PM
"al no be back at ibrox"


"why not?"


"coz theyve signed a catholic"



^ Rangers summed up. Bigots through and through

JeMeSouviens
25-08-2016, 08:49 PM
Huns now pretending to each other that they moved on. :rolleyes:

Jones28
25-08-2016, 08:52 PM
Terry butcher singing sectarian songs 😂😂

Mon Dieu4
25-08-2016, 08:53 PM
Good news people, sectarianism is dying :faf:

Borderhibbie76
25-08-2016, 08:53 PM
Scotland's game...mair like Scotland's shame involving the bigot brothers

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

northstandhibby
25-08-2016, 08:53 PM
"al no be back at ibrox"


"why not?"


"coz theyve signed a catholic"



^ Rangers summed up. Bigots through and through

Shocking. If they were displaying the same kind of hatred towards an ethnic minority the police would be lifting them without their feet touching the ground. The Authorities condone the hatred and bigotry shown to Catholics though.

:confused:




Mon the Cabbage

SteveHFC
25-08-2016, 08:59 PM
" Big house must stay open" :faf:

The Captain....
25-08-2016, 09:00 PM
Thought that was pretty poor personally.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

SaulGoodman
25-08-2016, 09:00 PM
Decent watch.

Too much about the bigot bro's but interesting nonetheless

Iceman1875
25-08-2016, 09:04 PM
Makes me hate Celtic and rangers even more after watching that!


At Easter Road we play...

Stewboy
25-08-2016, 09:09 PM
Was like a re-run of only an excuse

Stax
25-08-2016, 09:11 PM
Saddening, watched with my son for the Hibs footage....The bigotry and nonsense on show looks archaic. Then the realisation nothing has changed is utterly depressing.

.Sean.
25-08-2016, 09:12 PM
Why was there zero mention of Sir Tom Farmer?

Watching that is a reminder if ever you need one as to what a general black mark on society both Rangers and Celtic truly are. Stuck-in-the-past, Neanderthal vermin.

Broken Gnome
25-08-2016, 09:12 PM
The real conclusion to draw from that is that in Scottish football, everyone else are roasters apart from our own.

An hour of some dreadful people.

CraigHibee
25-08-2016, 09:13 PM
Actually thought it was half decent viewing with the exception of old rangers and their sectarian singing in the changing room

Pretty Boy
25-08-2016, 09:14 PM
"al no be back at ibrox"


"why not?"


"coz theyve signed a catholic"



^ Rangers summed up. Bigots through and through

Five minutes browsing social media, or indeed attending a match against them, show that their attitude hasn't changed a whole lot in nearly 30 years.

Sad inadequates.

crewetollhibee
25-08-2016, 09:15 PM
Have recorded it, but I've decided to treat this thread akin to Trip Advisor. Not going to waste my time watching it.

BoomtownHibees
25-08-2016, 09:16 PM
The wee kitman singing all the songs in the Rangers dressing room still works for them today

Jim44
25-08-2016, 09:19 PM
Actually thought it was half decent viewing with the exception of old rangers and their sectarian singing in the changing room

......... with Mo Johnston bouncing up and down singing the Billy Boys.

johnbc70
25-08-2016, 09:20 PM
Anyone spot the guy with the mullet driving the car Duff was in and then he was on the pitch next to Police in that Hearts game, who was he?

Pretty Boy
25-08-2016, 09:22 PM
The wee kitman singing all the songs in the Rangers dressing room still works for them today

Apparently he was rinsing them for about £150K a year at one point. If it's the same guy, Jimmy something. Read that on one of the Rangers forums when the extent of their troubles 1st appeared.

Sure he drove their team bus at one time as well.

Salt N Sauzee
25-08-2016, 09:25 PM
Only caught the last 20 minutes and it was all about The Old Firm which was no surprise.

Another thing that wasn't very surprising was seeing the entire Rangers Squad and Staff singing the Billy boys etc. The Sectarianism, Hatred and bigotry runs all the way through that club. I hate them more than anything in this world. S C U M !

Pretty Boy
25-08-2016, 09:27 PM
Apparently he was rinsing them for about £150K a year at one point. If it's the same guy, Jimmy something. Read that on one of the Rangers forums when the extent of their troubles 1st appeared.

Sure he drove their team bus at one time as well.

A bit about Rangers friendly kitman and his attitude to Mo Johnstone here:

http://www.scotzine.com/2012/12/fran-sandaza-interview-opens-up-old-wounds-of-sectarianism/

emerald green
25-08-2016, 09:28 PM
A fairly damning indictment of how the game has been run in Scotland over the last 30 or so years. Greed, gross mis-management and bigotry included.

David Duff, David Murray, Wallace Mercer, Jim Farry to name just a few of the pantomime characters featured in tonight's episode. The only one to come out with much credit was Fergus McCann, and there was a brief mention of HOH.

Had to laugh when Malpas criticised the late Jim McLean over his man management skills at Dundee United. :rolleyes:

pacorosssco
25-08-2016, 09:30 PM
Saddening, watched with my son for the Hibs footage....The bigotry and nonsense on show looks archaic. Then the realisation nothing has changed is utterly depressing.
Yes great post. Cup final proof. Celtic same evil. Irony is hmrc was end of club with anthem gstq. Murray is a crook. Should be stripped titles

Thecat23
25-08-2016, 09:34 PM
Off topic here but is Archie McPherson a Hibs fan? I know he has someone in the family son or son in law who is. Can anyone clear this up as it's annoying me now!!

bigwheel
25-08-2016, 09:35 PM
Off topic here but is Archie McPherson a Hibs fan? I know he has someone in the family son or son in law who is. Can anyone clear this up as it's annoying me now!!

no , he isn't TC...but his son, who went to Edinburgh Uni certainly was (is?)

NORTHERNHIBBY
25-08-2016, 09:38 PM
Maurice Malpas showing where his views on motivation come from.

crewetollhibee
25-08-2016, 09:38 PM
A fairly damning indictment of how the game has been run in Scotland over the last 30 or so years. Greed, gross mis-management and bigotry included.

David Duff, David Murray, Wallace Mercer, Jim Farry to name just a few of the pantomime characters featured in tonight's episode. The only one to come out with much credit was Fergus McCann, and there was a brief mention of HOH.

Had to laugh when Malpas criticised the late Jim McLean over his man management skills at Dundee United. :rolleyes:
Jim Mclean's still with us, but granted Malpas wouldn't have criticised him back then. McLean made Malpas an international player FFS.

mjhibby
25-08-2016, 09:40 PM
Why was there zero mention of Sir Tom Farmer?

Watching that is a reminder if ever you need one as to what a general black mark on society both Rangers and Celtic truly are. Stuck-in-the-past, Neanderthal vermin.

Will we ever be rid of this pathetic nonsense. The biggest joke was the historian saying sectarianism is dying out. Butcher and co belting out the billy boys sums up what has dragged down Scottish society for generations. So glad I support a club who got rid of that baggage a long time ago.

tamig
25-08-2016, 09:43 PM
Off topic here but is Archie McPherson a Hibs fan? I know he has someone in the family son or son in law who is. Can anyone clear this up as it's annoying me now!!

Back in the 70s and 80s huns used to call him Archie McCeltic and sellic fans called him Archie McRangers. So he didn't really show any allegiance! His son is a Hibby though.

inglisavhibs
25-08-2016, 09:47 PM
Terry butcher singing sectarian songs 😂😂
Along with a few others! Souness and Murray have a lot to answer for.

Onceinawhile
25-08-2016, 09:54 PM
Was absolutely terrible.

No mention of Sir Tom Farmer?

Airing of sectarian songs?

The idea that sectarianism isnt a problem for just a couple of clubs in Scotland?

Terry butcher, maurice malpas and wallace mercer?

Jim traynor suggesting that celtic fans were the first to buy shares in their club, minutes after talking about hibs fans putting in millions???

The boy bissett?

Thecat23
25-08-2016, 09:56 PM
no , he isn't TC...but his son, who went to Edinburgh Uni certainly was (is?)

Cheers, I mind reading something like that but couldn't remember if it was true. I know he's voiced over a couple of Hibs stuff in the past!

Thecat23
25-08-2016, 09:56 PM
Back in the 70s and 80s huns used to call him Archie McCeltic and sellic fans called him Archie McRangers. So he didn't really show any allegiance! His son is a Hibby though.

Should have been a spy 😂

tamig
25-08-2016, 09:57 PM
Was absolutely terrible.

No mention of Sir Tom Farmer?

Airing of sectarian songs?

The idea that sectarianism isnt a problem for just a couple of clubs in Scotland?

Terry butcher, maurice malpas and wallace mercer?

Jim traynor suggesting that celtic fans were the first to buy shares in their club, minutes after talking about hibs fans putting in millions???

The boy bissett?
Thought it was good and a good honest look at how the game was. As others have mentioned, the irony is that the sectarian shame is still as great today as it was back then.

Nakedmanoncrack
25-08-2016, 09:58 PM
Why was there zero mention of Sir Tom Farmer?

Watching that is a reminder if ever you need one as to what a general black mark on society both Rangers and Celtic truly are. Stuck-in-the-past, Neanderthal vermin.

I thought they covered the takeover & Hands off Hibs reasonably well - and despite the myth of Farmer being the saviour at that time (his serious involvement came later when club was in hands of receivers) at time of Hands Off Hibs Farmer & his associate Harrison only owned a small percentage of shares, not in any way sufficient to block the sale. Over the years the events of that year or so seem to be treated as if they all happened simultaneously which they didn't. The heroes of the initial Hands of Hibs phase of the club's battle for survival were those such as Kenny McLean who led the campaign, and those supporters who took direct action against Mercer, who could still have pushed it through - if he hadn't been clearly shown that it was not going to be allowed to happen peacefully.

NAE NOOKIE
25-08-2016, 10:02 PM
An ok watch, but after the wee bit on Dundee Utd and HOH without any mention of Tom Farmer it degenerated into just another show about the old firm, where they managed to mention that bigotry isn't confined to Celtic and Rangers ..... as usual without providing any evidence to back up that statement.

The only person I felt sorry for was Fergus McCann, as somebody else said, if it was any other club there would be a statue of him outside the ground ... ungrateful SOB's.

On a wee footnote ...... I don't give a rats arse about 'getting caught up in things' or whatever other excuse they think they might have ... to see grown men who should have known better, especially someone as clearly intelligent as Graeme Souness is, getting involved in singing sectarian songs even in the dressing room was as depressing a thing as I've seen in any football programme ..... WTF did they think they were doing !!!

Carheenlea
25-08-2016, 10:02 PM
Will we ever be rid of this pathetic nonsense. The biggest joke was the historian saying sectarianism is dying out. Butcher and co belting out the billy boys sums up what has dragged down Scottish society for generations. So glad I support a club who got rid of that baggage a long time ago.

Compared to back then, you could say it's dying out, but it's death is a painfully slow one. A generation on and it is still evident in Scottish football grounds, and you wonder how many more generations it will take to rid it completely.

Danderhall Hibs
25-08-2016, 10:07 PM
Jim Mclean's still with us, but granted Malpas wouldn't have criticised him back then. McLean made Malpas an international player FFS.

I think they fell out - I remember him saying it on the radio a few months ago. Around the time of a cup final.

hibbymac
25-08-2016, 10:14 PM
Anyone spot the guy with the mullet driving the car Duff was in and then he was on the pitch next to Police in that Hearts game, who was he?

I'm sure he was that guy that owned the security firm at easter road, .. was it Rock steady ???

Ozyhibby
25-08-2016, 10:19 PM
Thought it was good and a good honest look at how the game was. As others have mentioned, the irony is that the sectarian shame is still as great today as it was back then.

While it's far from good now, it's unfair to say it's not improved since then. I went to catholic school in the 70's and 80's and it was way worse then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tamig
25-08-2016, 10:46 PM
While it's far from good now, it's unfair to say it's not improved since then. I went to catholic school in the 70's and 80's and it was way worse then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Away from football perhaps. But its still rocking with the hun.

Spike Mandela
25-08-2016, 10:46 PM
Within the first couple of moment and Rangers spin doctor in chief is interviewed you know the documentary agenda will be skewed towards the Rangers agenda of events.

A typical BBC peice of ****. Won't be watching any more.

EskbankHibby
25-08-2016, 10:59 PM
Enjoyed it.

Some good stuff about HOH, never tire of the footage of the rally at ER.

Don't mind the stuff, about the OF to be honest, particularly as I felt a lot of it was highlighting how ridiculous they both were.

KWJ
26-08-2016, 12:47 AM
Within the first couple of moment and Rangers spin doctor in chief is interviewed you know the documentary agenda will be skewed towards the Rangers agenda of events.

A typical BBC peice of ****. Won't be watching any more.

Disagree purely on them showing the team singing Billy Boys. That really was some absolutely mental footage, even if MoJo wasn't there so fair play to the BBC for showing it...eventually.

Greencore
26-08-2016, 04:47 AM
The ending was the best part. "The big house must stay open!"

Danderhall Hibs
26-08-2016, 05:41 AM
Enjoyed it.

Some good stuff about HOH, never tire of the footage of the rally at ER.

Don't mind the stuff, about the OF to be honest, particularly as I felt a lot of it was highlighting how ridiculous they both were.

:agree: It didn't really show them up in a good light. McCann came out of it ok - he was basically the Rod Petrie to Murray's Romanov.

Tom Hart RIP
26-08-2016, 05:53 AM
The wee kitman singing all the songs in the Rangers dressing room still works for them today

He refused to join in the minutes applause for Jimmy Johnstone then tried to justify it by saying he was paying his own tribute by being silent.

CallumLaidlaw
26-08-2016, 06:02 AM
I think we need to remember that a lot of old firm business WAS and is big news in Scottish football. I found it quite an eye opener. Felt weird seeing the hands off Hibs rally again knowing I was there as a 8 year old.

Jones28
26-08-2016, 06:29 AM
Next week it'll be mad vlad et al, for 15 minutes at least, then back to the old firm.

Hibby70
26-08-2016, 06:33 AM
That derby was mental, you could tell just walking to the game that it was going to kick off big style.

Remember folk trying to get the gate behind the terracing opened to get to the Hearts fans like some scene from Lord of the Rings.

Hibby70
26-08-2016, 06:39 AM
Oh and it was good that the programme showed Mercer for what he was. A despicable gargoyle of a man.

JimBHibees
26-08-2016, 07:01 AM
An ok watch, but after the wee bit on Dundee Utd and HOH without any mention of Tom Farmer it degenerated into just another show about the old firm, where they managed to mention that bigotry isn't confined to Celtic and Rangers ..... as usual without providing any evidence to back up that statement.

The only person I felt sorry for was Fergus McCann, as somebody else said, if it was any other club there would be a statue of him outside the ground ... ungrateful SOB's.

On a wee footnote ...... I don't give a rats arse about 'getting caught up in things' or whatever other excuse they think they might have ... to see grown men who should have known better, especially someone as clearly intelligent as Graeme Souness is, getting involved in singing sectarian songs even in the dressing room was as depressing a thing as I've seen in any football programme ..... WTF did they think they were doing !!!

Totally shameful the singing but we all knew it happened anyway. Bizarre no mention of Tom Farmer. As usual too much emphasis on OF and the mention of other teams having sectarian issues without back up was a joke also. At least it touched on Murray and succulent lamb press. Traynor isn't a journalist though as he is employed by Rangers so misleading, should have asked him about Murray's influence on press.

Craigmount Hibs
26-08-2016, 07:11 AM
Disagree purely on them showing the team singing Billy Boys. That really was some absolutely mental footage, even if MoJo wasn't there so fair play to the BBC for showing it...eventually.
Surely everyone recognises that it was just a "small minority" of the dressing room singing sectarian songs?!?

Kato
26-08-2016, 07:32 AM
IThe heroes of the initial Hands of Hibs phase of the club's battle for survival were those such as Kenny McLean who led the campaign, and those supporters who took direct action against Mercer, who could still have pushed it through - if he hadn't been clearly shown that it was not going to be allowed to happen peacefully.

Mercer could have went ahead and taken control of a majority share-holding in Hibs. He still would have lacked enough shares to close the club down though, 76% of shares being required to do so and iirc he only had pledges for 66%. So he in effect lost the business argument and the social argument but he did like to say he won business argument as he had over 50% promised to him.

Deansy
26-08-2016, 07:35 AM
Compared to back then, you could say it's dying out, but it's death is a painfully slow one. A generation on and it is still evident in Scottish football grounds, and you wonder how many more generations it will take to rid it completely.

Due to their desparate need for cash, allied with their natural '****iness', both Chuckie Green and Dave 'Trust me' King purposely reinforced and increased sectarianism at 'Castle Greyskull' solely to put bums on seats !. Prior to their administration, I'd say it WAS dying out there but these two between them have extended it's longevity for decades to come !!

marinello59
26-08-2016, 08:01 AM
Due to their desparate need for cash, allied with their natural '****iness', both Chuckie Green and Dave 'Trust me' King purposely reinforced and increased sectarianism at 'Castle Greyskull' solely to put bums on seats !. Prior to their administration, I'd say it WAS dying out there but these two between them have extended it's longevity for decades to come !!
I'd agree with that, the more distasteful element of their support had begun to be silenced and sidelined. Green didn't really understand what he was getting involved in but King's cynical promises to maintain and defend the clubs 'traditions' have set them back decades.

JimBHibees
26-08-2016, 08:34 AM
I'd agree with that, the more distasteful element of their support had begun to be silenced and sidelined. Green didn't really understand what he was getting involved in but King's cynical promises to maintain and defend the clubs 'traditions' have set them back decades.

They had and the most effect was when UEFA started fining them at european games. The club did then have projects like pride over prejudice which helped also however the litany of shysters since have played the bigot card to line their pockets. Authorities both footballing and political need to also take some blame.

21.05.2016
26-08-2016, 10:04 AM
Will we ever be rid of this pathetic nonsense. The biggest joke was the historian saying sectarianism is dying out. Butcher and co belting out the billy boys sums up what has dragged down Scottish society for generations. So glad I support a club who got rid of that baggage a long time ago.

This. Utterly toxic club, bigotry and hate runs through the veins of the entire club. Rotten to their very core. An utter embarrassment to not only Scottish football but Scotland as a nation. We are a nation that wants the world to see us as forward moving and tolerant yet these morons drag us back into the dark ages.

Coming back from the dead as a newco and the seethe and bitterness their fans have about that seems to have ramped up their level of sectarian bile. Horrible horrible institution with the absolute dregs of society following them.

BullsCloseHibs
26-08-2016, 10:14 AM
Only caught the last 20 minutes and it was all about The Old Firm which was no surprise.

Another thing that wasn't very surprising was seeing the entire Rangers Squad and Staff singing the Billy boys etc. The Sectarianism, Hatred and bigotry runs all the way through that club. I hate them more than anything in this world. S C U M !

Messrs Butcher and Gough weren't exactly youngsters either at the time. Yet they belted out that tune KNOWING what they were up to. Souness seemed to have a very wry smile on his face when looking over at his players too.

hibsmad
26-08-2016, 10:18 AM
Enjoyed it.

Some good stuff about HOH, never tire of the footage of the rally at ER.

Don't mind the stuff, about the OF to be honest, particularly as I felt a lot of it was highlighting how ridiculous they both were.

I didn't watch it but I agree that anything that shows the OF up for what they are has got to be a good thing.

I do find it unbelievable however that they managed to cover HOH without a mention of Sir Tom!? They must have really went in depth!

pacoluna
26-08-2016, 10:27 AM
Messrs Butcher and Gough weren't exactly youngsters either at the time. Yet they belted out that tune KNOWING what they were up to. Souness seemed to have a very wry smile on his face when looking over at his players too.
He told one of them to join in.

greenginger
26-08-2016, 10:34 AM
One comment I would take issue with was that " Hibernian Football Club had debts piling up and the receivers were called in ".

IIRC it was the holding company sinking with the Avon Inns debt and the receivers were bought into the holding company , Edinburgh Hibernian PLC or whatever name it was given.

STF then bought the football club from the receivers.

Kato
26-08-2016, 10:39 AM
One comment I would take issue with was that " Hibernian Football Club had debts piling up and the receivers were called in ".

IIRC it was the holding company sinking with the Avon Inns debt and the receivers were bought into the holding company , Edinburgh Hibernian PLC or whatever name it was given.

STF then bought the football club from the receivers.


...then paid off all the FC's debts.

greenginger
26-08-2016, 11:03 AM
...then paid off all the FC's debts.


Its a small point ,I know, but the grunts will be along pretty soon with tosh about us being in administration too.

Sprouleflyer
26-08-2016, 11:39 AM
10 minutes of the programme covering Dundee Utd, Dundee, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen, 45 mins on the Old Firm.

I think the next episodes will be in the same format, limited time for "Scotlands Game" and majority time for "Old Firms Game".

Just another outlet for the BBC to pander to the Old Firm.

Won't be too bothered if I miss the other episodes.

Makalambay
26-08-2016, 12:05 PM
10 minutes of the programme covering Dundee Utd, Dundee, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen, 45 mins on the Old Firm.

I think the next episodes will be in the same format, limited time for "Scotlands Game" and majority time for "Old Firms Game".

Just another outlet for the BBC to pander to the Old Firm.

Won't be too bothered if I miss the other episodes.

Pandering? by highlighting the sectarian shame? Thought the program was fascinating, never going to please fans of every club.

Kojock
26-08-2016, 12:27 PM
Anyone spot the guy with the mullet driving the car Duff was in and then he was on the pitch next to Police in that Hearts game, who was he?

He's Alan Stirling an ex cop who started his own security business. Now lives abroad.

KeithTheHibby
26-08-2016, 12:35 PM
Off topic here but is Archie McPherson a Hibs fan? I know he has someone in the family son or son in law who is. Can anyone clear this up as it's annoying me now!!

I could have swore he was a Hamilton fan?

On another note both Archie and Jock Brown looked pretty well, shame we don't hear them commentating nowadays.

Scorrie
26-08-2016, 12:38 PM
Off topic here but is Archie McPherson a Hibs fan? I know he has someone in the family son or son in law who is. Can anyone clear this up as it's annoying me now!!

I remember reading his autobiography and I'm pretty sure he is from Shettleston and is a Rangers supporter

emerald green
26-08-2016, 12:43 PM
Jim Mclean's still with us, but granted Malpas wouldn't have criticised him back then. McLean made Malpas an international player FFS.

Oops what made me think otherwise? Sorry Jim! :doh:

mjhibby
26-08-2016, 12:46 PM
I remember reading his autobiography and I'm pretty sure he is from Shettleston and is a Rangers supporter

I think it's his son who is a hibby. Maybe he went to one of the Edinburgh unis and got the bug. He has mentioned it a few times that he gets chastised if he criticises hibs.

mjhibby
26-08-2016, 12:57 PM
This. Utterly toxic club, bigotry and hate runs through the veins of the entire club. Rotten to their very core. An utter embarrassment to not only Scottish football but Scotland as a nation. We are a nation that wants the world to see us as forward moving and tolerant yet these morons drag us back into the dark ages.

Coming back from the dead as a newco and the seethe and bitterness their fans have about that seems to have ramped up their level of sectarian bile. Horrible horrible institution with the absolute dregs of society following them.

The statement after the cup final showed that they had gone massively backwards in their attitude to others. The only way Scottish football will change is if a jack walker type figure pumps millions into hibs or Aberdeen and the break the old firm dominance. Even then I'm sure they would just spend money they don't have to try and stay on top. They are an horrible institution that I will never subject my wee guy listening too.

Baldy Foghorn
26-08-2016, 12:59 PM
This. Utterly toxic club, bigotry and hate runs through the veins of the entire club. Rotten to their very core. An utter embarrassment to not only Scottish football but Scotland as a nation. We are a nation that wants the world to see us as forward moving and tolerant yet these morons drag us back into the dark ages.

Coming back from the dead as a newco and the seethe and bitterness their fans have about that seems to have ramped up their level of sectarian bile. Horrible horrible institution with the absolute dregs of society following them.

Spot on, I sighed when their fans, where on about "tradition", and not going back after signing a Catholic. They really are vermin.

Watching the team sing billy boys, and F the pope, was disgusting, sure a director was in video singing too.....

fulshie
26-08-2016, 02:27 PM
I only caught the last half hour of the programme and it seemed to be the Celtic, Rangers / Catholic, Protestant show. Can honestly say It did not interest me in one little bit.

21.05.2016
26-08-2016, 02:57 PM
Messrs Butcher and Gough weren't exactly youngsters either at the time. Yet they belted out that tune KNOWING what they were up to. Souness seemed to have a very wry smile on his face when looking over at his players too.

They knew fine well what they were singing. Just shows how ingrained the bigotry at rangers is. Also proves that its not just a problem with the fans on the terraces, as I mentioned before bigotry runs through the fabric of the club. Its almost become normal practice.

Nutmegged
26-08-2016, 03:10 PM
Spot on, I sighed when their fans, where on about "tradition", and not going back after signing a Catholic. They really are vermin.

Watching the team sing billy boys, and F the pope, was disgusting, sure a director was in video singing too.....

I think who you actually saw was their kit man Jimmy Bell, a real loathesome wee character, I remember when Jimmy Johnstone died the huns played the yams at the PBS and they had a minutes applause for him and he made a big point of standing their head down with his hands behind his back, I recall hearing McLeish tore seven shades out of him after that and McLeish was the one who got the backlash - classless club

21.05.2016
26-08-2016, 03:10 PM
The statement after the cup final showed that they had gone massively backwards in their attitude to others. The only way Scottish football will change is if a jack walker type figure pumps millions into hibs or Aberdeen and the break the old firm dominance. Even then I'm sure they would just spend money they don't have to try and stay on top. They are an horrible institution that I will never subject my wee guy listening too.

The programe highlights just how utterly cringeworthy and laughable their post cup final statement was. Trying to take some sort of high and mighty moral high ground when the truth is that they are the ****miest, most vile club in the country.

Also, note how their fans ran on the pitch and broke the goal posts after they won the league with Souness.

Baldy Foghorn
26-08-2016, 04:50 PM
I think who you actually saw was their kit man Jimmy Bell, a real loathesome wee character, I remember when Jimmy Johnstone died the huns played the yams at the PBS and they had a minutes applause for him and he made a big point of standing their head down with his hands behind his back, I recall hearing McLeish tore seven shades out of him after that and McLeish was the one who got the backlash - classless club

Is that him with the dark hair at front nutmegged?

JeMeSouviens
26-08-2016, 05:08 PM
Is that him with the dark hair at front nutmegged?

Spot the torn-faced non-applauder ... :rolleyes:

17354

tamig
26-08-2016, 05:37 PM
The ending was the best part. "The big house must stay open!"

Classic 😂

https://youtu.be/2J1O0tfxAK4

ancient hibee
26-08-2016, 05:44 PM
Oops what made me think otherwise? Sorry Jim! :doh:


He he is very ill.

Baldy Foghorn
26-08-2016, 05:47 PM
Spot the torn-faced non-applauder ... :rolleyes:

17354

:aok:

Bad form, no real surprise though

SuperAllyMcleod
26-08-2016, 06:34 PM
I found it quite refreshing that Butcher was willing to stand up and say that he was an idiot for singing those songs and was shocked at what he had become. Quite surprised the BBC showed him say that to be honest.

Other than that I quite enjoyed it - would have liked a wee interview with George Mcluskey though!

weecounty hibby
26-08-2016, 07:02 PM
Any one notice the irony of the hun hordes invading the pittodrie pitch and breaking the goal posts!

Swedish hibee
26-08-2016, 07:07 PM
Is it up on youtube yet? What was the programme called?

mjhibby
26-08-2016, 07:12 PM
Any one notice the irony of the hun hordes invading the pittodrie pitch and breaking the goal posts!

Just like the horrendous scenes after the well sevco play off final at fir park they have been erased from the govan consciousness. Irony indeed.

magpie1892
26-08-2016, 07:41 PM
Is it up on youtube yet? What was the programme called?

On iPlayer. Search: Scotland's Game.

Up for another 6 days.

Baldy Foghorn
26-08-2016, 07:57 PM
Ton Devine was correct, sectarianism is certainly dying, listening to Tonight's songbook :fibber::faf::faf:

The Captain....
26-08-2016, 08:27 PM
Within the first couple of moment and Rangers spin doctor in chief is interviewed you know the documentary agenda will be skewed towards the Rangers agenda of events.

A typical BBC peice of ****. Won't be watching any more.

Correct it was Level 5 sponsored nonsense. BBC trying to get back onside with the Huns.

All the " Rangers continued to be bankrolled by Murray" pish..no they weren't, Murray used his influence to con money out of a weak management structure at the countries banks. It's an absolute scandal that more hasn't been made of Murray's downright crookery. Last nights program perpetuated the myth that Rangers (burn in hell) had some sort of positive influence on Scottish football while the truth is they set the scene for a governing body that cheated it's other member clubs in bending over backwards to cover up the Huns malfeasance.

The laughable assertion from Tom Devine that sectarianism in football and society is on the wane bares no scrutiny. Supporters of the zombie club are worse than ever and have a massive chip on their shoulder. They are absolute bigoted ****.

It's a shame a program that could have taken a fresh And honest look at the past as it influenced the present couldn't bring itself to represent the facts as we all know them. I'll leave people to draw thier own conclusions why that might be but the appearance of Jabba should give anyone a huge clue.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Pretty Boy
26-08-2016, 08:31 PM
Spot the torn-faced non-applauder ... :rolleyes:

17354

He just looks like a typical hun, you could almost imagine him as Andy Hallidays Grandad. Filling his offsprings head with all the 'tradition' bollox.

As I said earlier he was taking an absolute fortune out the club and played his part in their downfall so he's not all bad.

Kato
26-08-2016, 08:47 PM
Correct it was Level 5 sponsored nonsense. BBC trying to get back onside with the Huns.

All the " Rangers continued to be bankrolled by Murray" pish..no they weren't, Murray used his influence to con money out of a weak management structure at the countries banks. It's an absolute scandal that more hasn't been made of Murray's downright crookery. Last nights program perpetuated the myth that Rangers (burn in hell) had some sort of positive influence on Scottish football while the truth is they set the scene for a governing body that cheated it's other member clubs in bending over backwards to cover up the Huns malfeasance.

The laughable assertion from Tom Devine that sectarianism in football and society is on the wane bares no scrutiny. Supporters of the zombie club are worse than ever and have a massive chip on their shoulder. They are absolute bigoted ****.

It's a shame a program that could have taken a fresh And honest look at the past as it influenced the present couldn't bring itself to represent the facts as we all know them. I'll leave people to draw thier own conclusions why that might be but the appearance of Jabba should give anyone a huge clue.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Well said, every word.

Cardinal G
26-08-2016, 08:48 PM
I found it quite refreshing that Butcher was willing to stand up and say that he was an idiot for singing those songs and was shocked at what he had become. Quite surprised the BBC showed him say that to be honest.

Other than that I quite enjoyed it - would have liked a wee interview with George Mcluskey though!

I initially thought that to of Butcher and found it refreshing however I wonder if he only apologised for his behaviour because he knew they had this previously unseen footage.

Kato
26-08-2016, 08:51 PM
I initially thought that to of Butcher and found it refreshing however I wonder if he only apologised for his behaviour because he knew they had this previously unseen footage.


To give that idiot his due he said more or less the same in his autobiography that someone else wrote for him.

northstandhibby
26-08-2016, 08:57 PM
Correct it was Level 5 sponsored nonsense. BBC trying to get back onside with the Huns.

All the " Rangers continued to be bankrolled by Murray" pish..no they weren't, Murray used his influence to con money out of a weak management structure at the countries banks. It's an absolute scandal that more hasn't been made of Murray's downright crookery. Last nights program perpetuated the myth that Rangers (burn in hell) had some sort of positive influence on Scottish football while the truth is they set the scene for a governing body that cheated it's other member clubs in bending over backwards to cover up the Huns malfeasance.

The laughable assertion from Tom Devine that sectarianism in football and society is on the wane bares no scrutiny. Supporters of the zombie club are worse than ever and have a massive chip on their shoulder. They are absolute bigoted ****.

It's a shame a program that could have taken a fresh And honest look at the past as it influenced the present couldn't bring itself to represent the facts as we all know them. I'll leave people to draw thier own conclusions why that might be but the appearance of Jabba should give anyone a huge clue.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

:top marks

The sectarian filth could be heard very clearly on bt sport at rugby park tonight. The authorities will do their usual and turn a blind eye. ****.







Mon the Cabbage

Zazu62
26-08-2016, 09:04 PM
The big house must stay open, that really is funny like

Nakedmanoncrack
26-08-2016, 10:21 PM
Correct it was Level 5 sponsored nonsense. BBC trying to get back onside with the Huns.

All the " Rangers continued to be bankrolled by Murray" pish..no they weren't, Murray used his influence to con money out of a weak management structure at the countries banks. It's an absolute scandal that more hasn't been made of Murray's downright crookery. Last nights program perpetuated the myth that Rangers (burn in hell) had some sort of positive influence on Scottish football while the truth is they set the scene for a governing body that cheated it's other member clubs in bending over backwards to cover up the Huns malfeasance.

The laughable assertion from Tom Devine that sectarianism in football and society is on the wane bares no scrutiny. Supporters of the zombie club are worse than ever and have a massive chip on their shoulder. They are absolute bigoted ****.

It's a shame a program that could have taken a fresh And honest look at the past as it influenced the present couldn't bring itself to represent the facts as we all know them. I'll leave people to draw thier own conclusions why that might be but the appearance of Jabba should give anyone a huge clue.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

If you are seriously suggesting that 'sectarianism' or more accurately anti-Irish racism in Scottish society hasn't declined in the past 30 years you probably haven't been a victim of it much. That a few thousand people choose to sing nonense at football matches is regrettable but bears no comparison to the institutional bigotry that previously existed, Rangers were in the mainstream of Scottish society, merely one of many with a policy of only employing the 'Scottish race', that's absolutely unheard of now, as a nation we have took great strides.

Pretty Boy
26-08-2016, 10:26 PM
If you are seriously suggesting that 'sectarianism' or more accurately anti-Irish racism in Scottish society hasn't declined in the past 30 years you probably haven't been a victim of it much. That a few thousand people choose to sing nonense at football matches is regrettable but bears no comparison to the institutional bigotry that previously existed, Rangers were in the mainstream of Scottish society, merely one of many with a policy of only employing the 'Scottish race', that's absolutely unheard of now, as a nation we have took great strides.

Agreed although there is still plenty work to do.

I think that was actually the point Tom Devine was making. Rangers were just one of many institutions who amended their employment practices as the world moved on yet those on the Ibrox terraces maintained, or escalated, their prejudices as society moved away from them.

Anyone who has read Devines work over the years must be aware he is no apologist for anti Irish or anti Catholic bigotry.

21.05.2016
27-08-2016, 12:19 PM
Loud and proud renditions of their songbook last night at rugby park. Sectarianism dying out? Don't kid yourselves.

high bee
27-08-2016, 07:46 PM
Malpas criticising Jim Mcleans man management!? Haha, pot, kettle, black

emerald green
28-08-2016, 10:08 AM
He he is very ill.

I am sorry to hear that, and no offence was ever intended. A complete brainstorm on my part initially.

O'Rourke3
28-08-2016, 10:25 AM
He he is very ill.

Sorry to hear that. Was a torn faced git most of the time(as a manager) but he had the most unfashionable club imaginable win the league and with some great players and a lot of flair.

He also gave me a right laugh when he lost the rag at (Paul Mitchell I think) post game versus Hibs at ER and subsequently resigned. Those anger management issues were right at the fore by then.

McHibby
28-08-2016, 12:56 PM
Surely everyone recognises that it was just a "small minority" of the dressing room singing sectarian songs?!?

I think you'll find it was a "small minority that attached itself" to the Rangers' dressing room.

Joking aside, I was pretty taken aback to see that clip, and pleasantly surprised the BBC aired it at all.

21.05.2016
28-08-2016, 01:18 PM
The clip of the rangers players singing the billy boys only confirms what we already knew. It isn't a great shock to see that the bigotry at that club extends well beyond the fans on the terraces. But how do you stop a problem that is clearly so ingrained into the club that it's now normalised? Fines etc is all very well but that a hit to the club that the fans don't see. The only answer for me is to begin docking them points. Then that will really hit them.

Something needs to be done, this can't simply be the norm.

CallumLaidlaw
28-08-2016, 01:57 PM
The clip of the rangers players singing the billy boys only confirms what we already knew. It isn't a great shock to see that the bigotry at that club extends well beyond the fans on the terraces. But how do you stop a problem that is clearly so ingrained into the club that it's now normalised? Fines etc is all very well but that a hit to the club that the fans don't see. The only answer for me is to begin docking them points. Then that will really hit them.

Something needs to be done, this can't simply be the norm.

And the players behaving like this wasn't confined to the 80s. My mate was staying in a fancy hotel in Glasgow in around 2002. Steven Thompson was at rangers at the time. The Rangers team were on a night out and were in the lobby of this hotel all singing the sash and the Billy boys etc.

Smartie
28-08-2016, 03:43 PM
We're talking about a different era, nobody would have been surprised and it's unlikely that anyone would have been that offended about the thought of Rangers players singing the Billy boys at the time.

Looking back, yes, it was unacceptable by today's standards.

I actually thought Butcher came across well. It is easy to get carried away in a moment and at the time you could see why the likes of him would have become caught up in it. But it takes balls for him to face up to the fact that it was wrong and to change his opinion on it - and you can bet your boots the huns will be spewing about his words.

I actually do think that sectarianism in Scotland is generally, slowly dying out. That doesn't mean that support for it in certain areas isn't hardening, there will be less people who are bigoted but those who remain will be getting more poisonous.

I enjoyed the programme and thought it was good. I don't mind that it was OF heavy - the subject of the programme was money and it was discussing an era where money started to take over Scottish football, as did the OF. It suited the narrative of the programme.

Nakedmanoncrack
29-08-2016, 08:39 AM
We're talking about a different era, nobody would have been surprised and it's unlikely that anyone would have been that offended about the thought of Rangers players singing the Billy boys at the time.

Looking back, yes, it was unacceptable by today's standards.

I actually thought Butcher came across well. It is easy to get carried away in a moment and at the time you could see why the likes of him would have become caught up in it. But it takes balls for him to face up to the fact that it was wrong and to change his opinion on it - and you can bet your boots the huns will be spewing about his words.

I actually do think that sectarianism in Scotland is generally, slowly dying out. That doesn't mean that support for it in certain areas isn't hardening, there will be less people who are bigoted but those who remain will be getting more poisonous.

I enjoyed the programme and thought it was good. I don't mind that it was OF heavy - the subject of the programme was money and it was discussing an era where money started to take over Scottish football, as did the OF. It suited the narrative of the programme.

The Billy Boys and anti-Irish sentiment was absolutely the mainsteam decades back - and it wasn't even commented on, that's clearly changed - Scotland is a nation transformed.

As for Butcher he has said these words before, I bought his book when he was appointed as our manager and though he didn't come across as a very nice person (and obviously he subsequently was proved to be an awful manager) he did confess to getting caught up in this nonsense & regretting it.

tamig
29-08-2016, 09:07 AM
The Billy Boys and anti-Irish sentiment was absolutely the mainsteam decades back - and it wasn't even commented on, that's clearly changed - Scotland is a nation transformed.

As for Butcher he has said these words before, I bought his book when he was appointed as our manager and though he didn't come across as a very nice person (and obviously he subsequently was proved to be an awful manager) he did confess to getting caught up in this nonsense & regretting it.
He was effectively black balled by a chunk of the hun hordes when his book came out due to those comments. As you say, good on him. Despite what he did to us.

Finn2015
29-08-2016, 09:19 AM
I admit I'm not butchers chief cheerleader but like the previous post, I have to say I admire him when he reflects on how he got caught up in that side of things at rangers. Seems to acknowledge he let himself get caught up in it and comes cross as thoughtful and considered in how he took a step back and realised what he was becoming. Fair enough.

HappyHanlon
29-08-2016, 11:24 AM
I enjoyed it.

Swore a few times when Butcher, Souness, Malpas and Traynor were on screen but it was a good programme.

Interesting to see BBC throw the huns under the bus like that. Pleasing.

Greentinted
29-08-2016, 06:31 PM
Dug this out of the bookshelf on the back of watching and it really is worth a look for a more in-depth investigation into sectarianism here in Scotland. And it certainly chimes with the earlier post(s) regarding Prof Devine being no apologist for sectarian bigotry.

17366

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Scotland_s_Shame.html?id=OSHZAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

GreenOnions
30-08-2016, 12:20 AM
The Billy Boys and anti-Irish sentiment was absolutely the mainsteam decades back - and it wasn't even commented on, that's clearly changed - Scotland is a nation transformed.

As for Butcher he has said these words before, I bought his book when he was appointed as our manager and though he didn't come across as a very nice person (and obviously he subsequently was proved to be an awful manager) he did confess to getting caught up in this nonsense & regretting it.

:confused: I think you're getting a little carried away on a patriotic whim there. You're talking as if there's been some kind of enlightenment in the country over the last thirty years!

I agree that the incidence of sectarian chanting in football stadia is lower than it was. Unfortunately though, in west central Scotland in particular, I see/hear sectarianism - casual, implied and overt - on an almost daily basis. It is part and parcel of everyday conversation and behaviour. It's still our shame I'm afraid.

Like most political "hot potatoes" it is effectively pruned at the edges on an ongoing basis so that it can be managed and controlled rather than by tackling the big "elephant in the room" issues that might actually have a real effect. (Apologies for multiple mixed metaphors)

mjhibby
30-08-2016, 07:28 AM
The clip of the rangers players singing the billy boys only confirms what we already knew. It isn't a great shock to see that the bigotry at that club extends well beyond the fans on the terraces. But how do you stop a problem that is clearly so ingrained into the club that it's now normalised? Fines etc is all very well but that a hit to the club that the fans don't see. The only answer for me is to begin docking them points. Then that will really hit them.

Something needs to be done, this can't simply be the norm.

My thoughts exactly. There seems to be a resigned acceptance that the songbook as it's called is trotted out in every game when the infirm are involved and also at a lot of the pbs mobs games. It is indeed the elephant in the room. Drives me mad when when having to hear that bile when they are playing. When sky have to apologise for some of the songs just sums it up. It is and always will be the biggest stain on scotland made worse when English commentators eulogise over the amazing atmosphere at the bigot bros sectarianism fest.

GreenOnions
30-08-2016, 09:00 AM
My thoughts exactly. There seems to be a resigned acceptance that the songbook as it's called is trotted out in every game when the infirm are involved and also at a lot of the pbs mobs games. It is indeed the elephant in the room. Drives me mad when when having to hear that bile when they are playing. When sky have to apologise for some of the songs just sums it up. It is and always will be the biggest stain on scotland made worse when English commentators eulogise over the amazing atmosphere at the bigot bros sectarianism fest.

Trying to look at things from a different perspective - why would "football" feel that it should have to deal with sectarianism when scotland's people/society/government have clearly been unwilling to do so? Surely the singing of sectarian songs at football games is a manifestation of a societal problem rather than the problem itself?

Perhaps making laws specifically to try to deal with sectarian chanting makes it seem as if you're doing something about it but really it's just political point-scoring and avoiding the underlying cause which is sectarian attitudes and distrust as opposed to behaviours?

For the record - I abhor sectarian behaviour and attitudes and I also believe that the programme under discussion covered this and other issues quite well.

WhileTheChief..
30-08-2016, 09:27 AM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

Baldy Foghorn
30-08-2016, 09:29 AM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

Deary me......

FranckSuzy
30-08-2016, 09:37 AM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

I am "offended" that people are still being murdered in Scotland because of the religion they follow and/or the football team they support and the fact that Nil By Mouth (http://nilbymouth.org/aboutus/our-history/) is even necessary is 'Scotland's shame', IMHO.

ancient hibee
30-08-2016, 09:41 AM
While I find the songbook offensive I agree that nobody outside Scotland cares anything about it.They have cretins that sing about footballers or supporters dieing in crashes or stadia disasters but I don't see media debates about it. There are **** everywhere,ours have just been around longer than down south.

WhileTheChief..
30-08-2016, 09:45 AM
I am "offended" that people are still being murdered in Scotland because of the religion they follow and/or the football team they support and the fact that Nil By Mouth (http://nilbymouth.org/aboutus/our-history/) is even necessary is 'Scotland's shame', IMHO.

Well I was talking about singing some songs at the football.

Quite a leap to talk about people getting murdered because of their religion.

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make but there's a world of difference between these two issues and in my mind they aren't even comparable.

You're equating singing songs to murder???

surreyhibbie
30-08-2016, 09:52 AM
Been living down South for almost 35 years and its amazing (and very pleasing) that no-one here makes any connection between football and religion it seems to me.

The only people that bring up the Hibs/Catholic thing are other Scots, or people who are married to Scots. And maybe a couple of Chelsea supporters...and the Sevco supporter I used to drink with in Aldershot who flatly refused to believe I was a Hibs supporter and not Catholic. That was quite funny actually.

Never really got the Religious stuff I admit, never interested me and its only when on a trip home to Musselburgh that it raises it head. makes me think twice about moving back to be honest.

So, "Scotland's shame"? I have to agree...

ancient hibee
30-08-2016, 09:57 AM
Been living down South for almost 35 years and its amazing (and very pleasing) that no-one here makes any connection between football and religion it seems to me.

The only people that bring up the Hibs/Catholic thing are other Scots, or people who are married to Scots. And maybe a couple of Chelsea supporters...and the Sevco supporter I used to drink with in Aldershot who flatly refused to believe I was a Hibs supporter and not Catholic. That was quite funny actually.

Never really got the Religious stuff I admit, never interested me and its only when on a trip home to Musselburgh that it raises it head. makes me think twice about moving back to be honest.

So, "Scotland's shame"? I have to agree...

Apart from a strong strain of anti Jewishness in London.

FranckSuzy
30-08-2016, 09:59 AM
Well I was talking about singing some songs at the football.

Quite a leap to talk about people getting murdered because of their religion.

Not quite sure what point you're trying to make but there's a world of difference between these two issues and in my mind they aren't even comparable.

You're equating singing songs to murder???

I'm not sure it is, TBH.

The songs that are being belted out at the football portray the attitude some people have towards people of a different religion. Children hear it, adults pretend they are 'just' 90 minute bigots but sadly, the brainwashing has to start somewhere.

The fact that there is a rise in crime rates, including murder, relating to Old Firm games means it has to have a root in football and if you've just spent 90-odd minutes belting out some offensive garbage to opposing fans, is it such a stretch to equate them? Not in my book.

surreyhibbie
30-08-2016, 10:01 AM
Apart from a strong strain of anti Jewishness in London.

touche :agree:

GreenOnions
30-08-2016, 10:07 AM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

I think you're mixing up "shame" and "offence".

Offence is normally quite a direct and individual feeling.

The "shame" being spoken about can be a more vicarious thing. i.e. being part of a group (eg Scottish people) and feeling intense embarrassment because you associate and identify with the group but find the attitudes of a significant % of them abhorrent.

I am mortified by sectarianism in Scotland. We have spent so much time recently patting ourselves on the back because, in our own opinion, we don't have as much racism here as in England. The words "pot" and "kettle" spring to mind.

However - we need to stop simply dealing with the symptoms - the low-hanging fruit of drunk and aggressive football supporters - and focus our attention on the more deep-rooted attitudes in our midst.

ACLeith
30-08-2016, 10:13 AM
A good friend came to live in Leith about 20 years ago, from Yorkshire. She is a Leeds fan and before she came here she and her family thought that the Rantic rivalry was just the same as Liverpool/Everton, Man U/City and even Hibs/Hearts. She quickly learned - and was shocked at - how wrong she was and put her family down south right as to the truth.

Of course she is now a Hibbie and I made sure she was well aware of the "songbook" content they were singing on 21st May.

While I suppose it's kind of a relief to know that most of the population of our nearest neighbours (Manchester city centre residents excepted of course!) are not really aware of what we consider our country's shame, if they did then maybe it would help to eradicate it.

I do expect it will be consigned to history one day, but I fear that will be up to future generations long after I have shuffled off.

JimBHibees
30-08-2016, 10:22 AM
I'm not sure it is, TBH.

The songs that are being belted out at the football portray the attitude some people have towards people of a different religion. Children hear it, adults pretend they are 'just' 90 minute bigots but sadly, the brainwashing has to start somewhere.

The fact that there is a rise in crime rates, including murder, relating to Old Firm games means it has to have a root in football and if you've just spent 90-odd minutes belting out some offensive garbage to opposing fans, is it such a stretch to equate them? Not in my book.

Couldnt agree more there is an attitudinal link and the demonising of people based on religion and sadly in Scotland linked to the 2 biggest clubs is indeed Scotlands shame. Once had a tour of the Ambulance centre near Glasgow and they were showing the screen which highlighted 999 calls which were shown in red teh guy showing us round then said when the Old Firm game the whole screen was full of emergency calls.

WhileTheChief..
30-08-2016, 10:23 AM
It's the 'shame' thing I take issue with.

I'm a proud Scot, like most on here I'd guess, but I don't for one second feel ashamed or embarrassed because of what some football fans, that happen to live in Scotland, sing.

Lazio fans have / had a reputation for racism and neo-Nazi type stuff. That doesn't influence my thoughts on Italy or Italians one iota. Lovely country and people as far as I'm concerned.

Pretty Boy
30-08-2016, 10:36 AM
It's the 'shame' thing I take issue with.

I'm a proud Scot, like most on here I'd guess, but I don't for one second feel ashamed or embarrassed because of what some football fans, that happen to live in Scotland, sing.

Lazio fans have / had a reputation for racism and neo-Nazi type stuff. That doesn't influence my thoughts on Italy or Italians one iota. Lovely country and people as far as I'm concerned.

So do we just ignore it?

Whether these attitudes are ingrained or that of the '90 minute bigot' they are unacceptable imo. That goes for everything from singing songs through to actual violence in the name of ones own prejudices.

Nothing to do with 'needing to be offended', everything to do with believing we should live in a more tolerant world. It's because people took issue with sectarian employment practices that change happened, because people took exception to the more generally accepted sectarian attitudes that prevailed through the 20s to 80s that change happened and of the next step is challenging the 'casual' sectarianism displayed at football matches then that should be welcomed rather than scorned.

Dr What If?
30-08-2016, 10:40 AM
It's the 'shame' thing I take issue with.

I'm a proud Scot, like most on here I'd guess, but I don't for one second feel ashamed or embarrassed because of what some football fans, that happen to live in Scotland, sing.

Lazio fans have / had a reputation for racism and neo-Nazi type stuff. That doesn't influence my thoughts on Italy or Italians one iota. Lovely country and people as far as I'm concerned.

Can't agree I'm afraid, look at the reputation ALL English tourists gained thanks to the thuggish behaviour of their football fans in the 80s, or the wide spread coverage of racist Polish and Ukrainian crowds prior to them hosting the Euros. I've talked football with locals in other countries and it is not uncommon to hear 'Ah, Scotland, Celtic / Rangers, Catholic / Protestant'. We may be famous for lots of things here in Scotland, unfortunately thanks to the OF, sectarianism is one of them - and I am ashamed.

WhileTheChief..
30-08-2016, 12:09 PM
Ok, so let's accept that everyone would rather sectarianism didn't exist. Fully agreed on that point.

If it is such a wide spread problem though why is it only non old firm football fans that discuss it regularly?

It's not something that society as a whole discusses, it's rarely on the news agenda and never mentioned by the First Minister.

I guess my point is that it is used as a stick to beat the old firm with. A bit of moral high ground for the rest of us being able to say how bad they are.

If there was absolutely no hint of sectarianism at the football but it was still an issue within our society would it still be discussed by football fans??

When Celtic play Man City there will be fans throughout our country dying to hear some sectarian singing so they can they told you so. They won't be ashamed of our country or embarrassed to be Scottish.

JimBHibees
30-08-2016, 12:34 PM
So do we just ignore it?

Whether these attitudes are ingrained or that of the '90 minute bigot' they are unacceptable imo. That goes for everything from singing songs through to actual violence in the name of ones own prejudices.

Nothing to do with 'needing to be offended', everything to do with believing we should live in a more tolerant world. It's because people took issue with sectarian employment practices that change happened, because people took exception to the more generally accepted sectarian attitudes that prevailed through the 20s to 80s that change happened and of the next step is challenging the 'casual' sectarianism displayed at football matches then that should be welcomed rather than scorned.

Great post totally agree.

superfurryhibby
30-08-2016, 12:53 PM
Ok, so let's accept that everyone would rather sectarianism didn't exist. Fully agreed on that point.

If it is such a wide spread problem though why is it only non old firm football fans that discuss it regularly?

It's not something that society as a whole discusses, it's rarely on the news agenda and never mentioned by the First Minister.

I guess my point is that it is used as a stick to beat the old firm with. A bit of moral high ground for the rest of us being able to say how bad they are.

If there was absolutely no hint of sectarianism at the football but it was still an issue within our society would it still be discussed by football fans??

When Celtic play Man City there will be fans throughout our country dying to hear some sectarian singing so they can they told you so. They won't be ashamed of our country or embarrassed to be Scottish.


Concerns around sectarianism are far from confined to non OF football fans.

I would suggest that the Scottish Government have made attempts to curb the tolerance of these bigots with the action around all hate crime. This addresses broader issues including racism, gender and sexual prejudice.

Most of us on here take no pleasure from the current situation and I doubt very much whether folk will be watching Celtic V Man City, getting aroused at the anticipation of moral indignation around what songs they hear from the stands.

At the same time, I'm not accepting culpability for sectarianism, in the same way that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were not in my name. The shame lies at the door of the perps and the institutional apathy that allows it continue. The SFA and SPL governing bodies , amongst others should be more pro-active in taking action

mjhibby
01-09-2016, 06:05 AM
If you are seriously suggesting that 'sectarianism' or more accurately anti-Irish racism in Scottish society hasn't declined in the past 30 years you probably haven't been a victim of it much. That a few thousand people choose to sing nonense at football matches is regrettable but bears no comparison to the institutional bigotry that previously existed, Rangers were in the mainstream of Scottish society, merely one of many with a policy of only employing the 'Scottish race', that's absolutely unheard of now, as a nation we have took great strides.

Still a long way to go when the Scotsman won't allow you to use the word sevco when posting on their website. It is better but as bad as ever when the bigot bros are concerned. It is what funds them so should it be diluted then they would be much less powerful in terms of the SPL. It's still totally shocking that's it's being allowed to happen but how we eradicate it I'll leave to others cleverer than myself.

SteveHFC
01-09-2016, 08:34 PM
Champions of Europe in 10 years :faf:

Broken Gnome
01-09-2016, 08:41 PM
We could be on for the most boak inducing ten minutes of TV ever transmitted here.

stoneyburn hibs
01-09-2016, 08:44 PM
Skimmed over Hearts admin, with no mention of who or what they owed.

Zazu62
01-09-2016, 08:45 PM
Thank **** I'm a hibee

Stax
01-09-2016, 08:45 PM
The amount of money hertz *****ed over all those years bought them what? Beat Gretna on penalties. Greeting on my balcony.

Galahibby
01-09-2016, 08:47 PM
Skimmed over Hearts admin, with no mention of who or what they owed.

"Inspirational story" apparently! 🙄

California-Hibs
01-09-2016, 08:47 PM
I enjoyed the 1st episode. Apart from leaving Sir Tom out, they covered Hibs pretty well. We have to accept that the majority of fans in Scotland support Celtic or Rangers, so of course they have to have content in there that will sell to their highest audience.

Also, wether we like it or not, the old firm
do have a lot of history behind them that is unique and deep rooted. I thought it was well presented and well done! Although there was a lot of old firm content I think it's unfair to say there was only 10 minutes of 'other' content. Was a bit more than that.

Plus it was only episode 1! I'm sure other teams will get more coverage as it goes on.

Was interesting viewing for a man of my age to be enlighten a bit more as to the strength that Scottish Football used to be and what exactly happened to change it to what we have today. Living in the States I'm always asked why the Old Firm are so much stronger than the rest and I always just say 'The money went to the west coast at one point and that was that, fan bases grew and money spiraled way above the rest of us'.
But to now know it was a bit more than that and to see and hear just how far clubs were stretching their budgets especially during the foreign import era. Very interesting.

Looking forward to the next.

SteveHFC
01-09-2016, 08:50 PM
Those rangers fans. :faf:

Stax
01-09-2016, 08:54 PM
Stuart Cosgrove one of the few shining lights in the Scottish msm IMO, Tom English coming across well also.

Mon Dieu4
01-09-2016, 08:58 PM
Thought only Alex Thompson came across well, nothing new there then

poolman
01-09-2016, 09:03 PM
Those rangers fans. :faf:

Straight out the Star Wars bar

What a bunch, could they not have interviewed anybody who remotely looks human 😂

Hibernian Verse
01-09-2016, 09:08 PM
Straight out the Star Wars bar

What a bunch, could they not have interviewed anybody who remotely looks human 😂

There's nothing more indicative of Govan's demographic/average IQ than a middle aged man shouting "we are the people" down a TV camera.

JimBHibees
01-09-2016, 09:11 PM
Was I imagining that any shot of Hibs fans were ones of despair while most/all other fans were celebrating. Maybe just me. :greengrin

number9dream
01-09-2016, 09:12 PM
Thought only Alex Thompson came across well, nothing new there then

Thompson, English & Cosgrove all spoke well on Rangers but it's nothing new and Gers fans of a certain persuasion (i.e. most of them) will say all three have an agenda against their club. It would have been so much more interesting to hear McCoist or others in the bunker at the time talking about it but these guys either have a grudge against the BBC or don't want to rock the boat at Rangers.
It also seems odd that they didn't have Lennon on talking about his experiences but maybe he doesn't want to go over it all again or just laughed at the fee on offer from BBC Scotland...

HIBERNIAN-0762
01-09-2016, 09:13 PM
Skimmed over Hearts admin, with no mention of who or what they owed.

This. Unbelievable those *******s were shown as some kind of inspiration, an absolute ****ing joke.

Never let them forget...

Spike Mandela
01-09-2016, 09:24 PM
Wisnae going to watch this pish again but flicked it on for 10 mins and couldn't believe the pish I was listening to.

The BBC so spineless and gutless that they had to get a Channel 4 reporter in to talk about the EBT's. Nothing to do with us honest Mr King Sir,....Next, they are lauding Hearts as some kind of inspirational story and inspirational fans saving the club as if it wasn't the corrupt Lithuanian administration process and the wiping of squillions of debt.

Someone needs to make a decent documentary about the lying, cheating and corruption in Scottish football. Someone who isn't beholding to the authorities and Celtic and Sevco.

That someone isn't the ****ing BBC.

Winston Ingram
01-09-2016, 09:36 PM
The coverage of the Rangers/Sevco situation really pissed me off.

Totally skimmed over the reasons that clubs fans were not renewing their ST's no mention whatsoever that it was because they were attempting to re-write their own rules and award a brand new club a triple promotion.

I did enjoy Alex McLeish admit they were cheating :-)

Pretty Boy
01-09-2016, 09:36 PM
Missed it tonight.

Please tell me they showed the 'Vladimir Romanoooov' video during the bit about them. The one with the Hearts fans with the pony tail bwoing to him and the fat roaster showing of his signed top 'it says Vlad'.

Onceinawhile
01-09-2016, 09:39 PM
This. Unbelievable those *******s were shown as some kind of inspiration, an absolute ****ing joke.

Never let them forget...

Pretending they are fan owned as well. Unreal.

California-Hibs
01-09-2016, 09:42 PM
Was I imagining that any shot of Hibs fans were ones of despair while most/all other fans were celebrating. Maybe just me. :greengrin

To be fair, at the end of Episode one there was a shot of Hibs fans celebrating Stokes goal that made it 2-2

green day
01-09-2016, 09:43 PM
Skimmed over Hearts admin, with no mention of who or what they owed.

Who cares, we own more of our club right now than they will in 10 years.

They believe any auld pish that successive owners spin them.

Us winning the cup has clamped them good style.

speedy_gonzales
01-09-2016, 09:52 PM
I did enjoy Alex McLeish admit they were cheating :-)
Did you catch his eyes flickering between camera and off-camera? It was like he couldn't believe himself, what he'd just said!

The Green Goblin
01-09-2016, 09:55 PM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

You also seem offended though, by people who object to the huns singing those disgusting songs for years... A strange thing to criticise people for imo. Is your outrage at other people's outrage "fake" too? :confused:

It's hardly something petty or trivial to find what they sing and do offensive, is it? But then again, if the authorities and media weren't so spineless about it, it wouldn't be an issue.

EskbankHibby
01-09-2016, 10:31 PM
Missed it tonight.

Please tell me they showed the 'Vladimir Romanoooov' video during the bit about them. The one with the Hearts fans with the pony tail bwoing to him and the fat roaster showing of his signed top 'it says Vlad'.

Some top level forelock tugging going on. Second only to the obsequious doffing of caps to the landed gentry recently with that new strip and fawning website article.

Cringeworthy stuff.

Carheenlea
01-09-2016, 11:10 PM
To be fair, at the end of Episode one there was a shot of Hibs fans celebrating Stokes goal that made it 2-2

The winning goal was it not?

I`ve watched it so many times now I feel like I know every celebrating fan in the clip..:greengrin

SteveHFC
01-09-2016, 11:28 PM
Missed it tonight.

Please tell me they showed the 'Vladimir Romanoooov' video during the bit about them. The one with the Hearts fans with the pony tail bwoing to him and the fat roaster showing of his signed top 'it says Vlad'.

Sadly not.

Anyone know if that clip is online somewhere. One of the funniest things i've ever seen.

Cosmic Truth
02-09-2016, 05:50 AM
Oh and it was good that the programme showed Mercer for what he was. A despicable gargoyle of a man.

I know it's not the done thing to speak ill of the dead, but he was an absolute ****.

Cosmic Truth
02-09-2016, 05:59 AM
I think who you actually saw was their kit man Jimmy Bell, a real loathesome wee character, I remember when Jimmy Johnstone died the huns played the yams at the PBS and they had a minutes applause for him and he made a big point of standing their head down with his hands behind his back, I recall hearing McLeish tore seven shades out of him after that and McLeish was the one who got the backlash - classless club

McLeaish may have supported Rangers when he was young, but hes a rarity amongst their fans, a decent guy who's only interested in football. He must have been appalled at some of the thngs he saw behind the scenes.

The bit that disapointed me was Mark Walters gleefully singing "****** the pope and the vatican". Walters was subject to absolutely horrendous racist abuse at Celtic Park, and Tynecastle, and the media were rightly up in arms about it.

Clearly Mark doesn't see the irony of a man who has experienced morons vilifyinging him because of his skin colour, revelling in anti-Catholic bigotry.

Cosmic Truth
02-09-2016, 06:03 AM
I found it quite refreshing that Butcher was willing to stand up and say that he was an idiot for singing those songs and was shocked at what he had become. Quite surprised the BBC showed him say that to be honest.

Other than that I quite enjoyed it - would have liked a wee interview with George Mcluskey though!

Souness said he was fearless, yet he picked one guy who didn't get involved in dirty play etc, and was a pure footballer. I highly doubt he'd have done that to someone like Vinnie Jones, if they had played at the same time.

Cosmic Truth
02-09-2016, 06:14 AM
This 'Scotland's shame' thing is a nonsense.

Nobody outside of Scotland gives a damn and other than football fans no one in Scotland could give a toss.

They perhaps bring shame on themselves but that's about it.

You get offended when you hear their songbook on tv?? So you've been offended for decades yeah??

Not a chance that someone from down south can make out what's being sung at Ibrox and even if they could they wouldn't know they were on about anyway.

Fake outrage, which is becoming the norm in society.

Gotta be offended by something though eh.

Replace the word fenian" etc in the Rangers supporters songs with the word black, jew, paki etc and you would have some serious outrage, but good old fashioned anti-Catholic/Irish bigotry is still seen as banter by a lot of people in Scotland, particularly in the West.

When the deadco players were singing their party tunes, and Chick Young was interviewing Souness, I bet wee Chick's toes were tapping, and he was desperate to hear the word cut, so he could join in. :greengrin

AndyM_1875
02-09-2016, 07:57 AM
Replace the word fenian" etc in the Rangers supporters songs with the word black, jew, paki etc and you would have some serious outrage, but good old fashioned anti-Catholic/Irish bigotry is still seen as banter by a lot of people in Scotland, particularly in the West.


I'm not so sure that's true these days.

Rangers were too stupid and pig-headed to see the changes in Scottish society that became very apparent in the mid to late 90s and continued on and it wasn't just about political correctness. People stopped tolerating the bigoted nonsense that Rangers fans came out with. Their whole British Unionist Supremacy mantra and wearrapeepil hubris was very much out of place in modern Scotland so that when their financial meltdown happened in 2012 they found they had no friends willing to help them. The political establishment that could have pulled strings had no time for them and they had pissed off all the other clubs and the fans with their decades of arrogance.
They thought they were "important" and "too big to fail". They weren't.

NAE NOOKIE
02-09-2016, 11:18 AM
Interesting 2nd episode.

Even at the time Gretna were at their height can there have been any fans who weren't asking the question, how can a club from a town of 3,000 people with no wider large population in proximity sustain itself as a premier league club? ... there was no chance that they would ever survive the demise of Mileson.

As for Hearts ....... It would be churlish to deny that when it came to the crunch their fans stepped up in impressive numbers. But what they have to accept is that it became necessary for them to do that because they had ignored the writing on the wall for years, even when their own players were asking questions they ignored it, even when chairmen of other clubs were asking where Hearts were getting the money from they ignored it. When fans of other clubs, not just us, were asking questions they ignored it.
They without doubt were a huge factor in saving the club ... but the unpalatable truth is that they were as responsible for the fact that it needed saving as mad Vlad was.

The biggest myth surrounding Hearts continues to be dutifully regurgitated by the media and that is that the club is fan owned or on the way to being fan owned. If they mean its owned by a Hearts fan they are right. If they mean its owned by the wider Hearts support they are wrong, they don't own a bloody stick and after years of pouring in money they still don't own so much as a light bulb and with them being asked to help fund this proposed new stand from FOH contributions it will be years before that process even starts.
The money they are putting in is financing the club, but for that money they receive nothing in return apart from having a club to support .... they will pay to upgrade the ground, but once that is done and Hearts finally begin the process to pass the club over to the fans they will still have to pay for the privilege of owning what they have already paid for.

Hibs fans own north of 20% of Hibs but the club isn't fan owned, Hearts fans own nothing of Hearts and yet the media tout it as a model of fan ownership .... Its a funny old world.

Smartie
02-09-2016, 01:30 PM
Interesting 2nd episode.

Even at the time Gretna were at their height can there have been any fans who weren't asking the question, how can a club from a town of 3,000 people with no wider large population in proximity sustain itself as a premier league club? ... there was no chance that they would ever survive the demise of Mileson.

As for Hearts ....... It would be churlish to deny that when it came to the crunch their fans stepped up in impressive numbers. But what they have to accept is that it became necessary for them to do that because they had ignored the writing on the wall for years, even when their own players were asking questions they ignored it, even when chairmen of other clubs were asking where Hearts were getting the money from they ignored it. When fans of other clubs, not just us, were asking questions they ignored it.
They without doubt were a huge factor in saving the club ... but the unpalatable truth is that they were as responsible for the fact that it needed saving as mad Vlad was.

The biggest myth surrounding Hearts continues to be dutifully regurgitated by the media and that is that the club is fan owned or on the way to being fan owned. If they mean its owned by a Hearts fan they are right. If they mean its owned by the wider Hearts support they are wrong, they don't own a bloody stick and after years of pouring in money they still don't own so much as a light bulb and with them being asked to help fund this proposed new stand from FOH contributions it will be years before that process even starts.
The money they are putting in is financing the club, but for that money they receive nothing in return apart from having a club to support .... they will pay to upgrade the ground, but once that is done and Hearts finally begin the process to pass the club over to the fans they will still have to pay for the privilege of owning what they have already paid for.

Hibs fans own north of 20% of Hibs but the club isn't fan owned, Hearts fans own nothing of Hearts and yet the media tout it as a model of fan ownership .... Its a funny old world.

Good post.

On the programme though, even Anne Budge acknowledged that it is still a long road back for them from here and even now they are not exactly sure where it leads.

NAE NOOKIE
02-09-2016, 02:06 PM
Good post.

On the programme though, even Anne Budge acknowledged that it is still a long road back for them from here and even now they are not exactly sure where it leads.

Just recently Budge was interviewed and in that interview she dropped a heavy hint that full fan ownership might not be the best way to go, in fact as I recall she mentioned the fact that 25% fan ownership would be an ideal scenario.

To be honest I am beginning to look at the Hibs situation in the same way. The more I think about it the more I wonder exactly how fans having a full 51% controlling interest in the club will affect us into the future.

Unless you have a fan base in the millions like Barcelona or Bayern Munich there is every chance that at some point your club is going to need the financial clout of an owner who is prepared to put common sense to one side and fund the club in times of difficulty. For all I have been critical of STF for failing to fund the actual team there is little doubt that his intervention in times past has saved the club from the worst affects of the financial climate, not to mention its on field failings.

The big Spanish and German clubs can attract matchday crowd, TV money and sponsorship that we can only dream of, they can also attract rich men who are willing to invest even though they don't get control because of the glamour of the leagues they play in. Hibs and clubs like Hibs have no such luxury, the chances of being able to attract a wealthy individual to own a portion of the club that doesn't give him or her total control are highly unlikely and that makes me worry.

Say the fans had that 51% and the other 49% is owned by STF's family, who have no intention of using what is left of the family fortune to bale out a business they cant sell but have little interest in. Imagine then if Hibs announce that they need a million quid to make it through the season and the fans need to ante up to make it happen. Even if the 51% of shares were owned by 10,000 fans they would have to cough up £100 each to reach a million. How often could we take the bucket to that well before it ran dry?

The more you look at it the more it would make sense for the clubs ordinary supporters to own just enough of the club ( 25% I believe ) to be in a position to stop any future owner from asset stripping the club or making insane decisions that will put it in jeopardy, but leaving that owner with enough control to describe themselves as the club owner and as a result be willing to invest in the team and the infrastructure.

I worry that in the scenario of Scottish football fan ownership may enable clubs to survive, but I'm beginning to doubt that such a model will enable clubs to thrive.

Kato
02-09-2016, 02:44 PM
Interesting 2nd episode.

Even at the time Gretna were at their height can there have been any fans who weren't asking the question, how can a club from a town of 3,000 people with no wider large population in proximity sustain itself as a premier league club? ... there was no chance that they would ever survive the demise of Mileson.

As for Hearts ....... It would be churlish to deny that when it came to the crunch their fans stepped up in impressive numbers. But what they have to accept is that it became necessary for them to do that because they had ignored the writing on the wall for years, even when their own players were asking questions they ignored it, even when chairmen of other clubs were asking where Hearts were getting the money from they ignored it. When fans of other clubs, not just us, were asking questions they ignored it.
They without doubt were a huge factor in saving the club ... but the unpalatable truth is that they were as responsible for the fact that it needed saving as mad Vlad was.

Good post.

One thing Tom English said was something along the lines of "it was astonishing how positive the Hearts fans were, they only wanted to look forward". Well they certainly didn't want to look back over the financial debris in case anyone else did but have no qualms claiming the proceeds on the pitch. Two cups won using embezzled/laundered money. They look back on that no problem but do some wonderful moral gymnastics when claiming Vlads money has nowt to do with them.

At some point the era in llast nights episode will be designated The Asterisk Years and something like 14 trophies will be deemed invalid.

Dashing Bob S
02-09-2016, 03:07 PM
Good post.

One thing Tom English said was something along the lines of "it was astonishing how positive the Hearts fans were, they only wanted to look forward". Well they certainly didn't want to look back over the financial debris in case anyone else did but have no qualms claiming the proceeds on the pitch. Two cups won using embezzled/laundered money. They look back on that no problem but do some wonderful moral gymnastics when claiming Vlads money has nowt to do with them.

At some point the era in llast nights episode will be designated The Asterisk Years and something like 14 trophies will be deemed invalid.

Would they have the gaul to do that?

NAE NOOKIE
02-09-2016, 03:09 PM
Good post.

One thing Tom English said was something along the lines of "it was astonishing how positive the Hearts fans were, they only wanted to look forward". Well they certainly didn't want to look back over the financial debris in case anyone else did but have no qualms claiming the proceeds on the pitch. Two cups won using embezzled/laundered money. They look back on that no problem but do some wonderful moral gymnastics when claiming Vlads money has nowt to do with them.

At some point the era in llast nights episode will be designated The Asterisk Years and something like 14 trophies will be deemed invalid.

Tell ya what ... after posting I thought I would sully myself and have a wee look on Sickbag to see what they made of the programme. They have a thread like this one, but it was another one that caught my eye entitled 'backslapping' ....... they are so full of themselves its just going to be brilliant when they crash and burn ..... you have to give them credit though, nobody can polish a turd like a Jambo :faf:

GlesgaeHibby
03-09-2016, 04:33 PM
Tell ya what ... after posting I thought I would sully myself and have a wee look on Sickbag to see what they made of the programme. They have a thread like this one, but it was another one that caught my eye entitled 'backslapping' ....... they are so full of themselves its just going to be brilliant when they crash and burn ..... you have to give them credit though, nobody can polish a turd like a Jambo :faf:

Follow Follow is even more amusing for a read.

The Huns are going beserk at Alex Thomson for stating that Rangers cheated their way to 12 trophies over 10 years using the EBTs.

Guess the truth hurts eh? Plenty of them morally bankrupt enough to believe that the tax avoidance measures they employed were fair game.

Stevie Reid
03-09-2016, 04:52 PM
Good post.

One thing Tom English said was something along the lines of "it was astonishing how positive the Hearts fans were, they only wanted to look forward". Well they certainly didn't want to look back over the financial debris in case anyone else did but have no qualms claiming the proceeds on the pitch. Two cups won using embezzled/laundered money. They look back on that no problem but do some wonderful moral gymnastics when claiming Vlads money has nowt to do with them.

At some point the era in llast nights episode will be designated The Asterisk Years and something like 14 trophies will be deemed invalid.

I read a Tom English article on the BBC recently where he described Hearts as "one of Scottish football's feel good stories" - I quite liked what he had to say in the two episodes of Scotland's Game, but quotes like that stick in my throat.

Stevie Reid
03-09-2016, 04:54 PM
Interesting 2nd episode.

Even at the time Gretna were at their height can there have been any fans who weren't asking the question, how can a club from a town of 3,000 people with no wider large population in proximity sustain itself as a premier league club? ... there was no chance that they would ever survive the demise of Mileson.

As for Hearts ....... It would be churlish to deny that when it came to the crunch their fans stepped up in impressive numbers. But what they have to accept is that it became necessary for them to do that because they had ignored the writing on the wall for years, even when their own players were asking questions they ignored it, even when chairmen of other clubs were asking where Hearts were getting the money from they ignored it. When fans of other clubs, not just us, were asking questions they ignored it.
They without doubt were a huge factor in saving the club ... but the unpalatable truth is that they were as responsible for the fact that it needed saving as mad Vlad was.

The biggest myth surrounding Hearts continues to be dutifully regurgitated by the media and that is that the club is fan owned or on the way to being fan owned. If they mean its owned by a Hearts fan they are right. If they mean its owned by the wider Hearts support they are wrong, they don't own a bloody stick and after years of pouring in money they still don't own so much as a light bulb and with them being asked to help fund this proposed new stand from FOH contributions it will be years before that process even starts.
The money they are putting in is financing the club, but for that money they receive nothing in return apart from having a club to support .... they will pay to upgrade the ground, but once that is done and Hearts finally begin the process to pass the club over to the fans they will still have to pay for the privilege of owning what they have already paid for.

Hibs fans own north of 20% of Hibs but the club isn't fan owned, Hearts fans own nothing of Hearts and yet the media tout it as a model of fan ownership .... Its a funny old world.

Was a good episode but I thought it was ironic when Stuart Cosgrove was ripping into Gretna for the Scottish media describing their reaching a national cup final as a fairytale, when it was in fact a Ponzi scheme, that he neglected to mention that the Hearts side that they lost that final to was equally doped up, financially.

Tom Hart RIP
03-09-2016, 05:48 PM
Genuine question. Did Gretna owe lots of money when they went into administration?
I thought that BM just spent his own money then when he died his family stopped paying the bills and obviously the club couldn't afford to be self sufficient?

CropleyWasGod
03-09-2016, 05:57 PM
Genuine question. Did Gretna owe lots of money when they went into administration?
I thought that BM just spent his own money then when he died his family stopped paying the bills and obviously the club couldn't afford to be self sufficient?

They did owe lots of cash.

BM withdrew his support while he was still alive. According to Wiki (FWIW :greengrin), they had debts of £4m, of which £600k was HMRC.

If you want to dig deeper, the details will be in the public domain.It was an English company who ran the show....Wilson Field. They should have published their final accounts somewhere.

Edit... look at this page, then the Statement of Affairs:-

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC249414/filing-history

The biggest creditor was Lloyds TSB.

Tom Hart RIP
03-09-2016, 06:02 PM
Cheers

Off the bar
03-09-2016, 06:14 PM
They also managed to tell the hearts story without mentioning the cash only share issue. Did the gullible ones ever get a certificate? I've always thought this was a huge scandal but the yams all just bent over and took it and the media never pushed it.

CropleyWasGod
03-09-2016, 06:33 PM
They also managed to tell the hearts story without mentioning the cash only share issue. Did the gullible ones ever get a certificate? I've always thought this was a huge scandal but the yams all just bent over and took it and the media never pushed it.

The shares were honoured by the new regime, although they didn't have to..

Off the bar
03-09-2016, 06:34 PM
The shares were honoured by the new regime.

Thanks CWG I must have missed that in all that went on.

CropleyWasGod
03-09-2016, 06:45 PM
Thanks CWG I must have missed that in all that went on.

I don't think that too much was made of it, TBH.

Morally, it was the right thing to do, although like I say there was no legal requirement.

IIRC, STF did a similar thing for those of us who bought shares in the Duff and Gray debacle. The shares we had in that company (Forth something) were replaced by shares in the football club.

Greentinted
03-09-2016, 06:54 PM
Was a good episode but I thought it was ironic when Stuart Cosgrove was ripping into Gretna for the Scottish media describing their reaching a national cup final as a fairytale, when it was in fact a Ponzi scheme, that he neglected to mention that the Hearts side that they lost that final to was equally doped up, financially.

I suspect that would be more down to the editorial team than Cosgrove himself...It would be interesting to have access to all the footage of this, not just that which is being broadcast.
Chances...

tamig
03-09-2016, 07:54 PM
The shares were honoured by the new regime, although they didn't have to..

So does that technically mean there is a small element of fan ownership over there?

CropleyWasGod
03-09-2016, 07:58 PM
So does that technically mean there is a small element of fan ownership over there?

Yep.

I think there always was, even under Romanov and Robinson, although I could be wrong about that bit.

Steve-O
03-09-2016, 11:58 PM
Presume this has been mentioned, but just watched second episode and noted that Rangers liquidation was almost completely skipped over?!

California-Hibs
04-09-2016, 06:57 AM
Just got done watching Episode 2. Have to say, really enjoyed that! The Gretna story was interesting to relive again. What an incredibly bizarre period that was! Also forgot about Dundee and their period of Italians/Argintines, they were very good to watch at times!

Scottish footballs history is definitely that of a unique one, especially the last 30 years. Personally, I love it!

son of haggart
04-09-2016, 07:33 AM
Yep.

I think there always was, even under Romanov and Robinson, although I could be wrong about that bit.


There have always been shareholders - there is an annual shareholders meeting and although Romanov tried to buy up all the shares many still held on to them, keeping rights to be notified of AGMs annual accounts etc. It was a token thing during the Romanov era as he had enough to vote anything through. There was a share issue in the eighties or nineties to raise funds and many small share holdings (including mine, bought with my brother) created as a result. There's an annual shareholders meeting where the CEO/ manager/ DOF etc do presentations. There was one last week with Levein and Neilson doing a Q&A session.

greenlex
04-09-2016, 09:48 AM
Would they have the gaul to do that?
Well I liked that Bob if no one else did. :not worth I think the "in" thing to do is comment how brilliant it is yourself a few hours later but theres no need now.

CockneyRebel
04-09-2016, 11:45 AM
Apart from a strong strain of anti Jewishness in London.

I think you'll find that it's more anti Spurs/Levy(chairman) although still not to be condoned.

givescotlandfreedom
06-09-2016, 02:11 AM
I read a Tom English article on the BBC recently where he described Hearts as "one of Scottish football's feel good stories" - I quite liked what he had to say in the two episodes of Scotland's Game, but quotes like that stick in my throat.

I was just about to post the same thing. The only difference between Gretna's cheating and that of Hearts is Gretna suffered the full consequences of it whilst Hearts shamelessly got away with it and rejoice in their morally repugnant success.

ClewsHibs
08-09-2016, 07:09 PM
http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/14731634.Alex_McLeish__Scotland_were_cheated_out_o f_Euro_2008/

Some interesting quotes

Broken Gnome
08-09-2016, 07:28 PM
http://m.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/14731634.Alex_McLeish__Scotland_were_cheated_out_o f_Euro_2008/

Some interesting quotes

Until certain Hibs tragedies well and truly topped it, that Italy game was about as big a footballing kick in the nads that you can ever get. And yeah, part of that was the last minute free kick which you still can't quite get your head round.

But the theory is kinda shot to pieces if you think Italy should have been two up (wrongly disallowed goal) and our equaliser was offside. If it was a conspiracy, it wasn't terribly well executed...

JimBHibees
08-09-2016, 07:35 PM
Until certain Hibs tragedies well and truly topped it, that Italy game was about as big a footballing kick in the nads that you can ever get. And yeah, part of that was the last minute free kick which you still can't quite get your head round.

But the theory is kinda shot to pieces if you think Italy should have been two up (wrongly disallowed goal) and our equaliser was offside. If it was a conspiracy, it wasn't terribly well executed...

Agree what I would say is we got shafted in the Georgia game one maybe two stonewall pens.

blackpoolhibs
08-09-2016, 08:17 PM
Pasty on the telly. :greengrin

yekimevol
08-09-2016, 09:16 PM
This show is good TV, but I dare them to put on a positive episode instead of focusing on the negatives.

Onceinawhile
08-09-2016, 09:16 PM
Terry butcher again ffs.

Who lets this that on my TV.

Green Cabbage 7
08-09-2016, 09:30 PM
That was a big statement from Alex McLeish, Italian journalist calls him to say, " do you really think uefa will allow Italy and France not to qualify".

California-Hibs
09-09-2016, 01:03 AM
That was a big statement from Alex McLeish, Italian journalist calls him to say, " do you really think uefa will allow Italy and France not to qualify".

That match was dodgy start to finish! I was so gutted when Italy got that last minute winner. We WERE heading to the Euros that year! Can't believe he receive a call saying that! The 50-50s definitely were heavily stacked in the Italians favor. Shocking!

Btw have to say, really really like this show!

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 05:17 AM
The biggest myth surrounding Hearts continues to be dutifully regurgitated by the media and that is that the club is fan owned or on the way to being fan owned. If they mean its owned by a Hearts fan they are right. If they mean its owned by the wider Hearts support they are wrong, they don't own a bloody stick and after years of pouring in money they still don't own so much as a light bulb and with them being asked to help fund this proposed new stand from FOH contributions it will be years before that process even starts.
The money they are putting in is financing the club, but for that money they receive nothing in return apart from having a club to support .... they will pay to upgrade the ground, but once that is done and Hearts finally begin the process to pass the club over to the fans they will still have to pay for the privilege of owning what they have already paid for.

Hibs fans own north of 20% of Hibs but the club isn't fan owned, Hearts fans own nothing of Hearts and yet the media tout it as a model of fan ownership .... Its a funny old world.


This is a great post if 100% true. I'm not questioning the validity of this, just want to know where I can find details of this to back it up. I occasionally get dragged into a Facebook tiff with an acquaintance and if I had some details backing this up it would be a right big GIRFUY to this guy.

Is it really true that the fans own 0% of HMFC?

linlithgowhibbie
09-09-2016, 06:05 AM
This is a great post if 100% true. I'm not questioning the validity of this, just want to know where I can find details of this to back it up. I occasionally get dragged into a Facebook tiff with an acquaintance and if I had some details backing this up it would be a right big GIRFUY to this guy.

Is it really true that the fans own 0% of HMFC?

Not quite as there are Hearts shareholders already however the direct debit scheme hasn't given them any more shares.
:na na:

green day
09-09-2016, 06:06 AM
There have always been shareholders - there is an annual shareholders meeting and although Romanov tried to buy up all the shares many still held on to them, keeping rights to be notified of AGMs annual accounts etc. It was a token thing during the Romanov era as he had enough to vote anything through. There was a share issue in the eighties or nineties to raise funds and many small share holdings (including mine, bought with my brother) created as a result. There's an annual shareholders meeting where the CEO/ manager/ DOF etc do presentations. There was one last week with Levein and Neilson doing a Q&A session.

You have shareholders dinners with q&a sessions more frequently than that, either monthly or quarterly - guy in work goes.

You use it to keep in touch with the fans who bought old style and worthless shares.
Quite a good initiative I think, and it allows positive PR to get out to "influential" fans early - eg they all saw the new stand plans before release.

To answer a more recent question -

Hibs fans, in the shape of HSL and direct share purchases, own circa 20% (this was confirmed a few weeks ago).

Hearts fans (model of fan ownership, © The Media) own 0.00% of their club through their DD scheme - unless you include Budge as a fan, in which case they own 100%.

Ringothedog
09-09-2016, 06:30 AM
Pasty on the telly. :greengrin

Noticed that

CropleyWasGod
09-09-2016, 06:44 AM
This is a great post if 100% true. I'm not questioning the validity of this, just want to know where I can find details of this to back it up. I occasionally get dragged into a Facebook tiff with an acquaintance and if I had some details backing this up it would be a right big GIRFUY to this guy.

Is it really true that the fans own 0% of HMFC?
You can get the details of the ownership on their Companies House file.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005863

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 08:07 AM
Not quite as there are Hearts shareholders already however the direct debit scheme hasn't given them any more shares.
:na na:

Ok, interesting. Anyone know what %age the fans own?

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 08:10 AM
You have shareholders dinners with q&a sessions more frequently than that, either monthly or quarterly - guy in work goes.

You use it to keep in touch with the fans who bought old style and worthless shares.
Quite a good initiative I think, and it allows positive PR to get out to "influential" fans early - eg they all saw the new stand plans before release.

To answer a more recent question -

Hibs fans, in the shape of HSL and direct share purchases, own circa 20% (this was confirmed a few weeks ago).

Hearts fans (model of fan ownership, © The Media) own 0.00% of their club through their DD scheme - unless you include Budge as a fan, in which case they own 100%.

Ok, that's cool. I presume this 20% is an active ownership and not some made up "honorary" ownership that is conferred on HMFC fan ownership?

CropleyWasGod
09-09-2016, 08:14 AM
Ok, interesting. Anyone know what %age the fans own?

Look at the Annual Return on the link I posted above.

You can get a list of the shareholders if you contact CH on the number shown there.

CropleyWasGod
09-09-2016, 08:15 AM
Ok, that's cool. I presume this 20% is an active ownership and not some made up "honorary" ownership that is conferred on HMFC fan ownership?

Think you misread that.

Hibs are 20%.

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 08:19 AM
Think you misread that.

Hibs are 20%.

Sorry, I meant 20% active for Hibs fans, 0% active for HMFC fans.

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 08:20 AM
Look at the Annual Return on the link I posted above.

You can get a list of the shareholders if you contact CH on the number shown there.

Too much work :wink:

CropleyWasGod
09-09-2016, 08:21 AM
Sorry, I meant 20% active for Hibs fans, 0% active for HMFC fans.

Not sure what you mean by "active".

Every share in HFC has an equal vote, and it's the same for those in HMFC.

cocteautwin
09-09-2016, 09:00 AM
Not sure what you mean by "active".

Every share in HFC has an equal vote, and it's the same for those in HMFC.

As in the HFC fans will have a say. HMFC fans get no say.

JimBHibees
09-09-2016, 09:13 AM
That was a big statement from Alex McLeish, Italian journalist calls him to say, " do you really think uefa will allow Italy and France not to qualify".

It does seem really odd that a national manager would take a call from a foreign journalist before a hugely important game. Sounds like she was trying to get inside his head with that sort of line or he was making it up to get him off the hook. The free kick decision at the end was a poor one however it was kind of who could dive first with regard to Chiellini and Hutton. In terms of big decisions in the game Italy had a good goal chalked off and the Scottish goal was offside also. Not sure we should be bleating also as the defending at that goal was absolutely shambolic. Interesting they didnt concentrate more on the Georgia game when half the team were injured or suspended yet them being all OF players magically were able to play in an OF derby the weekend after. The game before Georgia was Ukraine at home an McCulloch IMO deliberately got himself booked to miss Georgia. The chat of cliques weak management, players taking the mickey under Burley say all you need to know about why we dont qualify for tournaments.

CropleyWasGod
09-09-2016, 09:21 AM
As in the HFC fans will have a say. HMFC fans get no say.

At the moment, the HFC fan-shareholders have a say, in that they each get one vote per share. In that, there is no difference from the fan-shareholders in HMFC. There is virtually nothing that can be done to prevent the major shareholder taking decisions, in either club.

That will change, to an extent, if and when we get to 25%. In theory, at that point, we can block any major proposals made by the major shareholder.

It may also change if and when HSL get to 20% share ownership, at which point they can elect someone to sit on the football club Board.

bigwheel
09-09-2016, 09:23 AM
At the moment, the HFC fan-shareholders have a say, in that they each get one vote per share. In that, there is no difference from the fan-shareholders in HMFC. There is virtually nothing that can be done to prevent the major shareholder taking decisions, in either club.

That will change, to an extent, if and when we get to 25%. In theory, at that point, we can block any major proposals made by the major shareholder.

It may also change if and when HSL get to 20% share ownership, at which point they can elect someone to sit on the football club Board.

What is odd about speaking to a journo about an up and coming game? Can't think of anything more normal for a manager

JimBHibees
09-09-2016, 09:33 AM
What is odd about speaking to a journo about an up and coming game? Can't think of anything more normal for a manager

Assume you were responding to my post. He seems to have taken a call from a foreign reporter who he didnt know. Would have thought outside normal press conferences that wouldnt be normal behaviour.

bigwheel
09-09-2016, 10:26 AM
Assume you were responding to my post. He seems to have taken a call from a foreign reporter who he didnt know. Would have thought outside normal press conferences that wouldnt be normal behaviour.

yes apologies for quoting wrong post...managers speaking to journos is a normal thing..happens every day..and speaking to foreign press, adhoc or otherwise, on run up to a big game would be pretty normal too...

number9dream
09-09-2016, 10:47 AM
I'm not buying the cheated by Italy line... The loss to Georgia was the big slip in that campaign, much like the last one.

I'm still reeling at seeing the list of players on standby for the 1986 squad. Frightening!

Bristolhibby
09-09-2016, 10:55 AM
It does seem really odd that a national manager would take a call from a foreign journalist before a hugely important game. Sounds like she was trying to get inside his head with that sort of line or he was making it up to get him off the hook. The free kick decision at the end was a poor one however it was kind of who could dive first with regard to Chiellini and Hutton. In terms of big decisions in the game Italy had a good goal chalked off and the Scottish goal was offside also. Not sure we should be bleating also as the defending at that goal was absolutely shambolic. Interesting they didnt concentrate more on the Georgia game when half the team were injured or suspended yet them being all OF players magically were able to play in an OF derby the weekend after. The game before Georgia was Ukraine at home an McCulloch IMO deliberately got himself booked to miss Georgia. The chat of cliques weak management, players taking the mickey under Burley say all you need to know about why we dont qualify for tournaments.

Staying on that thread the SPL IIRC then made sure OF games did not land either side of Scotland games.

Fast forward 9 years to the first New Old Firm Derby, and straight away there was a Scotland game immediately preceding an OF game.

Have they not learnt? (Sparky miraculously recovers for tomorrow's game yet strangely was absent in Malta).

J

JimBHibees
09-09-2016, 11:37 AM
yes apologies for quoting wrong post...managers speaking to journos is a normal thing..happens every day..and speaking to foreign press, adhoc or otherwise, on run up to a big game would be pretty normal too...

Fair dos you may be right. Just seems a bit contrived by McLeish.

NAE NOOKIE
09-09-2016, 01:36 PM
3rd episode and its getting a wee bit depressing to be honest, there's an awful lot of picking our game to pieces and not very much of what can be done to sort it. Any dummy can point to what has gone wrong, it takes vision and effort to make things better. For example, you invite Barry Hearn to address the great and good of the game ... great idea .... Then you ignore everything he said .... bad idea.

You get folk like Graham Souness bemoaning our limited group of players, but where is the legacy from the group of world beaters him and his peers were part of, they underachieved just as much as the players who followed them, but with far less of an excuse for it. where are the players who came into the national team from the Rangers academy set up when he was in charge, or for that matter when Walter Smith was in charge, how many of these football geniuses from what they obviously see as a golden age have gone on to inspire or find new stars for the Scotland team?

I don't know how many episodes are left to go, but is at least one of them going to show what is still good about our game, and there is good stuff. When two towns with a combined population of less than Dundee can attract nearly 40,000 to a cup final you cant say the interest isn't still there, when over 100,000 people leave the house to watch a team parade the Scottish cup you cant say the interest isn't still there.

Is there going to be an episode where these football and social experts are going to give us positive and workable ideas about what can be done to advance the cause of our game, from attracting back supporters, attracting new supporters and how clubs can improve the development of new talent and provide that talent and these supporters with modern and inspirational surroundings to play and watch in, in the form of new or refurbished stadiums.

If that isn't going to happen then what the hell is the point of a TV series like this ... if its just a case of a load of 'I was there' folk from football's past telling us how what we all know went wrong went wrong then I could have made the bloody programme. When do we get the folk with ideas and ambition, when do we replace 'we cant' with 'we want to and we can' ........ I'm sick of hearing from folk who say we can never do stuff, I want to hear from folk who say we can and I want to hear from folk with ideas of how we can.

MurrayfieldHibs
09-09-2016, 01:47 PM
3rd episode and its getting a wee bit depressing to be honest, there's an awful lot of picking our game to pieces and not very much of what can be done to sort it. Any dummy can point to what has gone wrong, it takes vision and effort to make things better. For example, you invite Barry Hearn to address the great and good of the game ... great idea .... Then you ignore everything he said .... bad idea.

You get folk like Graham Souness bemoaning our limited group of players, but where is the legacy from the group of world beaters him and his peers were part of, they underachieved just as much as the players who followed them, but with far less of an excuse for it. where are the players who came into the national team from the Rangers academy set up when he was in charge, or for that matter when Walter Smith was in charge, how many of these football geniuses from what they obviously see as a golden age have gone on to inspire or find new stars for the Scotland team?

I don't know how many episodes are left to go, but is at least one of them going to show what is still good about our game, and there is good stuff. When two towns with a combined population of less than Dundee can attract nearly 40,000 to a cup final you cant say the interest isn't still there, when over 100,000 people leave the house to watch a team parade the Scottish cup you cant say the interest isn't still there.

Is there going to be an episode where these football and social experts are going to give us positive and workable ideas about what can be done to advance the cause of our game, from attracting back supporters, attracting new supporters and how clubs can improve the development of new talent and provide that talent and these supporters with modern and inspirational surroundings to play and watch in, in the form of new or refurbished stadiums.

If that isn't going to happen then what the hell is the point of a TV series like this ... if its just a case of a load of 'I was there' folk from football's past telling us how what we all know went wrong went wrong then I could have made the bloody programme. When do we get the folk with ideas and ambition, when do we replace 'we cant' with 'we want to and we can' ........ I'm sick of hearing from folk who say we can never do stuff, I want to hear from folk who say we can and I want to hear from folk with ideas of how we can.

I absolutely agree with you. The episode last night just went on about how **** we are. Even when we had a half decent (I may be exaggerating..) group of players we under achieved.

maybe it is going to finish up with Leanne and Ann B painting a vision of a better future and dragging the rest of them in a new direction?

The Harp
09-09-2016, 02:26 PM
3 down, 1 to go. Quite enjoyed the first two but agree about the depressing nature of last night's episode. Here's hoping next week it's more optimistic about the future of the game. Emphasis on women's football perhaps?

GreenArmy1875
09-09-2016, 04:19 PM
Until it changes away from hoofball and big physical players with the first teams then Scottish football will forever be terrible.

What's the point playing fancy football at development level for them to go into a first team to pump it long.

JimBHibees
09-09-2016, 04:59 PM
3rd episode and its getting a wee bit depressing to be honest, there's an awful lot of picking our game to pieces and not very much of what can be done to sort it. Any dummy can point to what has gone wrong, it takes vision and effort to make things better. For example, you invite Barry Hearn to address the great and good of the game ... great idea .... Then you ignore everything he said .... bad idea.

You get folk like Graham Souness bemoaning our limited group of players, but where is the legacy from the group of world beaters him and his peers were part of, they underachieved just as much as the players who followed them, but with far less of an excuse for it. where are the players who came into the national team from the Rangers academy set up when he was in charge, or for that matter when Walter Smith was in charge, how many of these football geniuses from what they obviously see as a golden age have gone on to inspire or find new stars for the Scotland team?

I don't know how many episodes are left to go, but is at least one of them going to show what is still good about our game, and there is good stuff. When two towns with a combined population of less than Dundee can attract nearly 40,000 to a cup final you cant say the interest isn't still there, when over 100,000 people leave the house to watch a team parade the Scottish cup you cant say the interest isn't still there.

Is there going to be an episode where these football and social experts are going to give us positive and workable ideas about what can be done to advance the cause of our game, from attracting back supporters, attracting new supporters and how clubs can improve the development of new talent and provide that talent and these supporters with modern and inspirational surroundings to play and watch in, in the form of new or refurbished stadiums.

If that isn't going to happen then what the hell is the point of a TV series like this ... if its just a case of a load of 'I was there' folk from football's past telling us how what we all know went wrong went wrong then I could have made the bloody programme. When do we get the folk with ideas and ambition, when do we replace 'we cant' with 'we want to and we can' ........ I'm sick of hearing from folk who say we can never do stuff, I want to hear from folk who say we can and I want to hear from folk with ideas of how we can.

Fantastic post let's have interviews with foreign players / coaches etc who could give an insight into what could be done better. Mark Wotte Ronald de boer, latapy, sauzee etc. Too much navel gazing. Should have been comparison with Iceland. As you suggest huge positives in the game, largest amount of people per head of population who attend game however we are spoon fed that the game is pants mostly by agenda driven tabloids feeding on lamb.

ancient hibee
09-09-2016, 06:37 PM
Until it changes away from hoofball and big physical players with the first teams then Scottish football will forever be terrible.

What's the point playing fancy football at development level for them to go into a first team to pump it long.

Strong players playing long ball hasn't done Iceland(who everyone seems to want us to be like)any harm.You have to decide on your strengths and play to them.Unfortunately none of our strengths appear to allow us to play samba soccer but there is more than one way to win a football match.

mjhibby
09-09-2016, 07:34 PM
3rd episode and its getting a wee bit depressing to be honest, there's an awful lot of picking our game to pieces and not very much of what can be done to sort it. Any dummy can point to what has gone wrong, it takes vision and effort to make things better. For example, you invite Barry Hearn to address the great and good of the game ... great idea .... Then you ignore everything he said .... bad idea.

You get folk like Graham Souness bemoaning our limited group of players, but where is the legacy from the group of world beaters him and his peers were part of, they underachieved just as much as the players who followed them, but with far less of an excuse for it. where are the players who came into the national team from the Rangers academy set up when he was in charge, or for that matter when Walter Smith was in charge, how many of these football geniuses from what they obviously see as a golden age have gone on to inspire or find new stars for the Scotland team?

I don't know how many episodes are left to go, but is at least one of them going to show what is still good about our game, and there is good stuff. When two towns with a combined population of less than Dundee can attract nearly 40,000 to a cup final you cant say the interest isn't still there, when over 100,000 people leave the house to watch a team parade the Scottish cup you cant say the interest isn't still there.

Is there going to be an episode where these football and social experts are going to give us positive and workable ideas about what can be done to advance the cause of our game, from attracting back supporters, attracting new supporters and how clubs can improve the development of new talent and provide that talent and these supporters with modern and inspirational surroundings to play and watch in, in the form of new or refurbished stadiums.

If that isn't going to happen then what the hell is the point of a TV series like this ... if its just a case of a load of 'I was there' folk from football's past telling us how what we all know went wrong went wrong then I could have made the bloody programme. When do we get the folk with ideas and ambition, when do we replace 'we cant' with 'we want to and we can' ........ I'm sick of hearing from folk who say we can never do stuff, I want to hear from folk who say we can and I want to hear from folk with ideas of how we can.

Far easier to indulge in Scotland favourite pastime. Moaning about everything but offer zilch in the way of solutions. The only way we will ever be decent is when we are lucky enough to bring through a team from the under 18/19 and then stick with them like the German coaches did. We would need to have been lucky enough to have a team full of mcginn and Tierney's and then we might stand half a chance. That seems a million miles away as our under 21s have shown.