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JAY-ESS GREEN
17-08-2016, 11:23 PM
Not got clue how to post a link but on mirror website apologies if posted already

JAY-ESS GREEN
17-08-2016, 11:25 PM
Not got clue how to post a link but on mirror website apologies if posted already

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rangers-fans-palestine-supporter-clash-8653713

monktonharp
17-08-2016, 11:36 PM
wont many on here, that click to newspaper links these days mate. certainly not papers with red top status. hopefully someone can forward a statement or report, and hopefully it puts der hun in a bad light:wink:

NAE NOOKIE
17-08-2016, 11:40 PM
Bigots find new conflict to get bigoted about ..... happy days

GreenLake
18-08-2016, 12:20 AM
One of them was wearing a Gazza strip

s2hart
18-08-2016, 12:49 AM
One of them was wearing a Gazza strip

:applause: :greengrin

Viva_Palmeiras
18-08-2016, 04:28 AM
Isn't the mirror group to be included if we're serious about a Record boycott?

#justSayin

blaikie
18-08-2016, 05:41 AM
The video is doing the rounds on social media, they really will fight about anything!

givescotlandfreedom
18-08-2016, 06:01 AM
Criticising Palestinians for objecting to their country being taken off them seems a bit rich when you get violent if someone walks into your half at Hampden.

marinello59
18-08-2016, 06:22 AM
Is Lee Wallace alright?

Nameless
18-08-2016, 06:22 AM
Criticising Palestinians for objecting to their country being taken off them seems a bit rich when you get violent if someone walks into your half at Hampden.
Brilliant!

bighairyfaeleith
18-08-2016, 06:26 AM
Is Lee Wallace alright?

Won't someone please think about Lee

LancsHibs
18-08-2016, 06:40 AM
Lee's missus has tweeted, he is thankfully unharmed and is sitting at home having coffee and toast.

Finn2015
18-08-2016, 06:46 AM
Bigots find new conflict to get bigoted about ..... happy days

Yip not content with Northern Ireland it seems Celtic fans have aligned themselves with the Palestinians and rangers fans with Israelis and giving vent through this conflict. There you go

LancsHibs
18-08-2016, 06:50 AM
Yip not content with Northern Ireland it seems Celtic fans have aligned themselves with the Palestinians and rangers fans with Israelis and giving vent through this conflict. There you go

They really are a weird lot!

Smartie
18-08-2016, 06:53 AM
Is Lee Wallace alright?

Lee is fine.

He's currently down at the police station giving a full and frank account of what he witnessed.

Finn2015
18-08-2016, 06:54 AM
They really are a weird lot!

Seems they will latch on to any conflict to continue their hatred for each other. Really is bizarre. I'm sure there are some politically aware people who have strong feelings about the Palestine issue so I'm not damning all but it does seem a lot of OF fans have latched on to this conflict cos they think their own side has certain parallels with the Israelis or Palestinians

Peevemor
18-08-2016, 07:00 AM
This is nothing new. For years Celtic flew a Palestine flag over the jungle (along with an Irish tricolour and a basque flag along others) and the huns being the huns, took the opposite side.

I've also heard PLO chants from (a very few) Hibs fans at ER.

Pete
18-08-2016, 07:12 AM
These people believe that their culture is being eradicated and they are being dehumanised so it's understandable that they protest and lash out after such intense provocation.

Don't know why they're going fighting with Palestinians though.

Jack
18-08-2016, 07:39 AM
This is nothing new. For years Celtic flew a Palestine flag over the jungle (along with an Irish tricolour and a basque flag along others) and the huns being the huns, took the opposite side.

I've also heard PLO chants from (a very few) Hibs fans at ER.

I can't remember any PLO chants! How did it go?

Baldy Foghorn
18-08-2016, 07:46 AM
I can't remember any PLO chants! How did it go?

He misheard, it was P&O, great ferries......:wink:

Bostonhibby
18-08-2016, 07:50 AM
Apparently it's those pesky west of Scotland FC and Scottish cup supporters FC who were at it again.
An in depth Daily record investigation will eventually reveal that the rangers told them it was celebrating hibs fans that were responsible for this

Golden Bear
18-08-2016, 07:53 AM
I can't remember any PLO chants! How did it go?

Or me and hopefully I never will.

Springbank
18-08-2016, 08:03 AM
He misheard, it was P&O, great ferries......:wink:

I remember when that Icelandic volcano went off a couple of years back, and grounded all flights for a few days in the North Atlantic and Europe.

pal of mine with shares in cal mac was praying for the "big one" (as there is a supervolcano that's overdue an eruption in Iceland too)

"that thing blows and it ushers in the golden age of Caledonian MacBrayne" he was heard saying...

poolman
18-08-2016, 08:24 AM
Apparently it's those pesky west of Scotland FC and Scottish cup supporters FC who were at it again.
An in depth Daily record investigation will eventually reveal that the rangers told them it was celebrating hibs fans that were responsible for this

Very true

It will be confirmed by Jim Traynor

Jim44
18-08-2016, 08:32 AM
:confused: Maybe I'm getting my politics confused here, but I thought Celtic were playing an Israeli team, so where do Palestinian fans come into it?

allezsauzee
18-08-2016, 08:38 AM
I think the huns are still bitter about losing Gazza

Sylar
18-08-2016, 08:43 AM
:confused: Maybe I'm getting my politics confused here, but I thought Celtic were playing an Israeli team, so where do Palestinian fans come into it?

I'm glad it's not just me...maybe they define "Palestinian fans" as Celtc fans?

I seen the Celtc fans were all holding Palestinian flags up last night, despite being told by UEFA not to bother.

Hopefully a monumental fine coming their way - the Tims at their antagonistic best.

greenlex
18-08-2016, 08:45 AM
:confused: Maybe I'm getting my politics confused here, but I thought Celtic were playing an Israeli team, so where do Palestinian fans come into it?

The Palestinian sympathisers were protesting against the Israeli team(as if they have influence on foreign policy). Whether they were actually Palestinians or Celtic fans on the wind up is unclear. Silly buggers all round.

SouthMoroccoStu
18-08-2016, 09:12 AM
Is that not a Celtc connections?

Pal o Stein?

:greengrin

I'll get my coat

Jim44
18-08-2016, 09:13 AM
The Palestinian sympathisers were protesting against the Israeli team(as if they have influence on foreign policy). Whether they were actually Palestinians or Celtic fans on the wind up is unclear. Silly buggers all round.

דאנק איר פֿאַר די דערקלערונג :greengrin

hibee_nation
18-08-2016, 09:24 AM
I remember when that Icelandic volcano went off a couple of years back, and grounded all flights for a few days in the North Atlantic and Europe.

pal of mine with shares in cal mac was praying for the "big one" (as there is a supervolcano that's overdue an eruption in Iceland too)

"that thing blows and it ushers in the golden age of Caledonian MacBrayne" he was heard saying...

Lets hope so we might even get our car ferry back in Dunoon. :greengrin

J-C
18-08-2016, 09:33 AM
So that was the reason for the demonstration at West Tollcross yesterday, Palestinian flags taped to loads of railings etc all over Tollcross and guys with loud speakers shouting like mad.

Paloschi
18-08-2016, 09:41 AM
Some disturbing comments over on the jambos kickback thread about the Celtic fans with the flags. Once classy post was 'Hope Israel bomb them.' You stay classy ya tramps!

JimBHibees
18-08-2016, 09:45 AM
Some disturbing comments over on the jambos kickback thread about the Celtic fans with the flags. Once classy post was 'Hope Israel bomb them.' You stay classy ya tramps!

Bomb Celtic fans? :greengrin

Moulin Yarns
18-08-2016, 09:45 AM
Someone I follow on twitter had it on periscope yesterday, Rangers and Hapoel fans at Central Station


https://www.periscope.tv/AngelaHaggerty/1MnGnywBnbwKO

johnbc70
18-08-2016, 09:45 AM
So that was the reason for the demonstration at West Tollcross yesterday, Palestinian flags taped to loads of railings etc all over Tollcross and guys with loud speakers shouting like mad.

I saw that last night about 5pm and wondered what was going on. Strange they chose to protest in Edinburgh though. Celtic and Rangers really do deserve each other, they should break away and form a league of 2 and they can play each other every week. They would probably love that.

HUTCHYHIBBY
18-08-2016, 09:46 AM
I remember when that Icelandic volcano went off a couple of years back, and grounded all flights for a few days in the North Atlantic and Europe.

pal of mine with shares in cal mac was praying for the "big one" (as there is a supervolcano that's overdue an eruption in Iceland too)

"that thing blows and it ushers in the golden age of Caledonian MacBrayne" he was heard saying...

Eh?

Paloschi
18-08-2016, 09:46 AM
So that was the reason for the demonstration at West Tollcross yesterday, Palestinian flags taped to loads of railings etc all over Tollcross and guys with loud speakers shouting like mad.


Loads of years of Israeli oppression and aggression on the west bank. Palestine has almost been totally obliterated in a genocide style fashion. People have a right to protest and spread awareness.

However I heard they were shouting abuse at people which is counter productive. It comes with a frustration that the western world chooses to ignore this.

Just to add I have nothing against Israeli citizens or Jewish people in any way. What I am against is the Israeli and Western World Government policies in the west bank and our shameful UK government for supporting it. :aok:

The Green Goblin
18-08-2016, 09:58 AM
Poor huns. Everyone just doesn't get them, do they? Only trying to do what's right.

One thing this does help to do, is undermine Jackass/Traynor and DR's pathetic "huns as victims" stance...

Pretty Boy
18-08-2016, 10:21 AM
No statement from Traynor yet? Did Jackshun witness every Palestinian man, woman and child being assaulted? Was there severe and prolonged provocation? Did the Palestinians cause considerable alarm to disabled people? Is it preferable to sing a sectarian song or attack a Palestinian?

These are the things we need to know!

monktonharp
18-08-2016, 10:29 AM
Loads of years of Israeli oppression and aggression on the west bank. Palestine has almost been totally obliterated in a genocide style fashion. People have a right to protest and spread awareness.

However I heard they were shouting abuse at people which is counter productive. It comes with a frustration that the western world chooses to ignore this.

Just to add I have nothing against Israeli citizens or Jewish people in any way. What I am against is the Israeli and Western World Government policies in the west bank and our shameful UK government for supporting it. :aok: I am with you on that, and it seems there are a lot on here who are blissfully unaware of what is happening in Palestine, and Gazza in particular. I'm all right jack, this is my castle etc. So, do expand on the statement you have just made.....I heard they were shouting etc....??

Paloschi
18-08-2016, 10:38 AM
I am with you on that, and it seems there are a lot on here who are blissfully unaware of what is happening in Palestine, and Gazza in particular. I'm all right jack, this is my castle etc. So, do expand on the statement you have just made.....I heard they were shouting etc....??

A family member works in the bank at Tollcross and heard them abusing people walking in to the Israeli fringe show that was on. People unfortunately choose to talk about the abuse rather than the reason for protest which is why I feel its counter productive in spreading awareness.

Vini1875
18-08-2016, 10:39 AM
Loads of years of Israeli oppression and aggression on the west bank. Palestine has almost been totally obliterated in a genocide style fashion. People have a right to protest and spread awareness.

However I heard they were shouting abuse at people which is counter productive. It comes with a frustration that the western world chooses to ignore this.

Just to add I have nothing against Israeli citizens or Jewish people in any way. What I am against is the Israeli and Western World Government policies in the west bank and our shameful UK government for supporting it. :aok:

Exactly and the fact Israeli teams are allowed to play in a European tournament is outrageous, akin to South Africa during apartheid being allowed to enter teams in European tournaments because the surrounding countries were hostile.

The Captain....
18-08-2016, 10:39 AM
Someone I follow on twitter had it on periscope yesterday, Rangers and Hapoel fans at Central Station


https://www.periscope.tv/AngelaHaggerty/1MnGnywBnbwKO

Is that the same journalist that was hounded by the zombie bigots on twitter previously. In fact wasn't she suspended by The Herald and re-instated again after the public backlash?

On the subject of Israel/Palestine, is there anything that trivialises the issue more than two sets of football supporters taking polar opposite sides to find a new battleground. The Rangers fans in that clip couldn't spell Israel and would probably struggle with PLO to to be honest.

monktonharp
18-08-2016, 10:48 AM
A family member works in the bank at Tollcross and heard them abusing people walking in to the Israeli fringe show that was on. People unfortunately choose to talk about the abuse rather than the reason for protest which is why I feel its counter productive in spreading awareness.I agree, but if you are a situation where you are not being heard, this can exasperate you and lead to confrontation. they should not be abusing people verbally or other but I hope they did inform more during the protest

jacomo
18-08-2016, 11:02 AM
Loads of years of Israeli oppression and aggression on the west bank. Palestine has almost been totally obliterated in a genocide style fashion. People have a right to protest and spread awareness.

However I heard they were shouting abuse at people which is counter productive. It comes with a frustration that the western world chooses to ignore this.

Just to add I have nothing against Israeli citizens or Jewish people in any way. What I am against is the Israeli and Western World Government policies in the west bank and our shameful UK government for supporting it. :aok:

Not wishing to hijack this for political debate but the bit in bold is very ill considered.

If you care about the Palestinian cause, you should take care with the words you use, because otherwise it simply inflames the situation and causes further division.

jacomo
18-08-2016, 11:04 AM
A family member works in the bank at Tollcross and heard them abusing people walking in to the Israeli fringe show that was on. People unfortunately choose to talk about the abuse rather than the reason for protest which is why I feel its counter productive in spreading awareness.

Just goes to show that abuse achieves nothing.

Stupid people.

Mikey
18-08-2016, 11:15 AM
Religion has an awful lot to answer for.

Paloschi
18-08-2016, 11:19 AM
Not wishing to hijack this for political debate but the bit in bold is very ill considered.

If you care about the Palestinian cause, you should take care with the words you use, because otherwise it simply inflames the situation and causes further division.


Point noted. IMO it is an accurate reflection on what has happened or is happening. Calling it a war is an ill informed reflection of the conflict. I feel it is the truth and caring about the cause should spread the truth. However I do understand the sensitivities.

Anyway this is for another forum. To get the thread back on topic. I think Celtic and Rangers supporters are what gives Scottish football a bad name and it seems they have found a new way to clash on something purely because they are Celtic and Rangers fans and for very diminished political reasons. Once again though The Rangers supporters have got themselves involved, like when they ran on to the Hampden pitch when they could have shown dignity and restraint. Mind you they will probably get praised for that anyway.

AndyM_1875
18-08-2016, 11:26 AM
On the subject of Israel/Palestine, is there anything that trivialises the issue more than two sets of football supporters taking polar opposite sides to find a new battleground. The Rangers fans in that clip couldn't spell Israel and would probably struggle with PLO to be honest.

This.

The Israel/Palestine issue is highly complex and demands great understanding and research.
I seriously doubt that Jimmy from Croy or Billy from Larkhall have quite grasped the details beyond yet another issue upon which to build their tedious brain dead agendas.

Edson Arantes
18-08-2016, 11:29 AM
One of them was wearing a Gazza strip

Very good! :thumbsup:

Finn2015
18-08-2016, 11:36 AM
Poor huns. Everyone just doesn't get them, do they? Only trying to do what's right.

One thing this does help to do, is undermine Jackass/Traynor and DR's pathetic "huns as victims" stance...

I don't think anyone bar them and the people they represent would think the Huns are victims of anything. The most spoilt, arrogant and triumphalist set of supporters probably in world football. There sense of injustice only exists when they fail to get what they perceive as their own way and spit the dummy out as a result

Carheenlea
18-08-2016, 11:36 AM
Were last night's participants serious, passionate and active supporters on both sides of the Middle East debate, or was it more just people choosing sides according to what football team they support?

Danderhall Hibs
18-08-2016, 11:37 AM
Religion has an awful lot to answer for.

100% :agree: with this

Finn2015
18-08-2016, 11:40 AM
Were last night's participants serious, passionate and active supporters on both sides of the Middle East debate, or was it more just people choosing sides according to what football team they support?

They all had masters in middle eastern studies ☺️

hibbygraham
18-08-2016, 11:42 AM
This.

The Israel/Palestine issue is highly complex and demands great understanding and research.
I seriously doubt that Jimmy from Croy or Billy from Larkhall have quite grasped the details beyond yet another issue upon which to build their tedious brain dead agendas.

What's the "brain dead agenda"? Promoting Palestinian liberation? The fact that The Rangers fans wave Israeli flags in response (as an antagonistic gesture) doesn't devalue the merits of the Celtic fans' actions.

Hibernia&Alba
18-08-2016, 12:02 PM
Religion has an awful lot to answer for.

Whilst there is a religious angle to the middle-east conflict, Mikey, it's more a conflict about political/territorial self-determination, much like Northern Ireland. There are religious fundamentalists on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides, but that isn't the root cause of the conflict. In any conflict there is blame on both sides, but that doesn't mean responsibility always has to be split fifty-fifty. Israel is an illegal occupier under international law, as mandated by the United Nations following the six day war of 1967, but, with America's total support, can ignore the law. IMHO, it isn't an exaggeration to define Israeli action in the occupied territories as that of a terrorist state, such is the number of civilians, including children, that Israel has killed since its establishment in 1948. The right wing in Israel, led by Likud, is very canny at calling anyone who criticises the policies of the state as anti-Semitic, but it must be remembered there are many voices within Israel that condemn the actions of their own government: I think there are about half a dozen human rights groups in Israel who monitor their government's behaviour inside the occupied territories.

It seems ironic to me that the Jewish state of all states - people who know better than anyone the cost of being degraded and dehumanised - should treat the Palestinians in such an inhuman way. The answer is, of course, a two state solution based upon the pre 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as a shared capital; but Israel has no intention of dismantling all its illegal settlements - again illegal as defined by the United Nations, and will not accept any notion of a shared capital. It goes without saying that I will not support extremist groups in Palestine that target Israeli civilians, though I'm aware it's easy for me to say violence isn't the answer from my cosy peaceful life. It's difficult to see a settlement whilst America continues to give Israel a free hand and protection from international law, and the Jewish lobby in America is very powerful and bellicose; but it is the only power that can reign in the right wing in Israel.

21.05.2016
18-08-2016, 12:03 PM
As one poster has already pointed out, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is complex. Many, in fact I bet most have very little understanding of it. This strikes me as another "look at us we are the good guys" attempt by celtic fans and used by OF fans as another reason to fight and hate each other.


Politics and religion should never mix with football. The OF rivalry is barely even based on football anymore and it is poisonous in this country.

Hibernia&Alba
18-08-2016, 12:03 PM
Were last night's participants serious, passionate and active supporters on both sides of the Middle East debate, or was it more just people choosing sides according to what football team they support?

I'll take a punt at B as my answer.

Jack Hackett
18-08-2016, 12:07 PM
Point noted. IMO it is an accurate reflection on what has happened or is happening. Calling it a war is an ill informed reflection of the conflict. I feel it is the truth and caring about the cause should spread the truth. However I do understand the sensitivities.

Anyway this is for another forum. To get the thread back on topic. I think Celtic and Rangers supporters are what gives Scottish football a bad name and it seems they have found a new way to clash on something purely because they are Celtic and Rangers fans and for very diminished political reasons. Once again though The Rangers supporters have got themselves involved, like when they ran on to the Hampden pitch when they could have shown dignity and restraint. Mind you they will probably get praised for that anyway.

Nonsense! 15 Hibs fans are Scotland's Shame...it was in a newspaper, so it must be true

High-On-Hibs
18-08-2016, 12:14 PM
Not really surprised by any of this. Rangers fans have always had a problem with people who wish nothing but self determination of their own nations. They love being controlled and see themselves as proud foot soldiers of the elite. They're an outdated disease much like cholera, but refuse to die.

AndyM_1875
18-08-2016, 12:59 PM
What's the "brain dead agenda"? Promoting Palestinian liberation? The fact that The Rangers fans wave Israeli flags in response (as an antagonistic gesture) doesn't devalue the merits of the Celtic fans' actions.

You've missed the point.
Rangers & Celtic fans will use anything to paint the other side in a bad light.

I very much doubt either side can properly explain their "support" for Israel/Palestine. A solution to that conflict has escaped leaders like Kofi Annan and Barack Obama yet Jimmy from Glasgow has the solution? Nah, don't think so.

NAE NOOKIE
18-08-2016, 01:00 PM
I am with you on that, and it seems there are a lot on here who are blissfully unaware of what is happening in Palestine, and Gazza in particular. I'm all right jack, this is my castle etc. So, do expand on the statement you have just made.....I heard they were shouting etc....??

I don't think that is true ..... it may be the case that people have different opinions as to whether its a good idea to start taking sides in the context of what football team you support. It may be the case that people have different opinions on the rights and wrongs of both sides in the conflict, but you would have to have been living in a bubble on the Moon for the last 30 years to be 'blissfully unaware' of what's happening in the middle east. Its one of the facts of life that not everybody is going to be as passionate about a subject as some other people are ..... It doesn't mean they don't care.

When it comes to Israel the whole thing has been a mess since the state was formed after WW2 ..... The rage of the Palestinians is absolutely easy to sympathise with ..... Its hard to imagine any scenario in which the UN would have recognized a state that came into being in the circumstances Israel did and yet they did, to the utter detriment of the Arab / Palestinian population of the region.

On the other hand, for centuries the Jews of Europe had been scapegoated time and time again, sometimes for religious and sometimes for political ends ... who knows how many of them have been massacred and displaced in that time in various pogroms .... with the whole thing coming to a head in WW2 ... its no secret that in many places in Europe folk lined the streets and cheered as the local Jews were lead away to their fate. In those circumstances who could blame the Jews for finally taking things into their own hands and creating a state where their people would finally feel safe ... In the absence of an unoccupied country lying about just waiting to be moved into Palestine was always going to be where they were going to end up. After centuries of misery you can understand why from a Jewish point of view they weren't too bothered about what eggs got broken to make the omelette.

The two sides in this conflict will never agree to live together. Israel will always be there and the Palestinians will always strive to get their homeland back.

After decades of the greatest and stupidest minds on this planet trying to resolve this catch 22 situation I highly doubt that the supporters of two football clubs who are entrenched in their own form of hatred towards one another picking sides is going to do anything to help the situation.

hibbygraham
18-08-2016, 01:30 PM
You've missed the point.
Rangers & Celtic fans will use anything to paint the other side in a bad light.

I very much doubt either side can properly explain their "support" for Israel/Palestine. A solution to that conflict has escaped leaders like Kofi Annan and Barack Obama yet Jimmy from Glasgow has the solution? Nah, don't think so.

I've not missed your point. Celtic fans' waving Palestinian flags as a show of solidarity is a political statement, especially so when playing an Israeli side. I fail to see how you can derive from that an attempt to paint The Rangers in a bad light. Just because The Rangers fans react predictably says nothing about Celtic fans' actions.

And why does politicians' inability to produce a solution negate those fans' right to express solidarity with one side? Am I unable to express an opinion on the matter until Barack or Kofi imparts his wisdom?

Sylar
18-08-2016, 01:41 PM
I am with you on that, and it seems there are a lot on here who are blissfully unaware of what is happening in Palestine, and Gazza in particular. I'm all right jack, this is my castle etc. So, do expand on the statement you have just made.....I heard they were shouting etc....??

That much is clear. People seem to think black and white lines can be drawn and "sides" assumed based on their own prejudices and experiences.

As with most conflicts, there's two perspectives - two sides committing attrocities, two sides peddling questionable agendas, two sides claiming ownership of the same thing.

Only one thing is absolutely clear and 100% beyond any dispute - the Israel/Palestine conflict has absolutely **** all to do with football, irrespective of who Celtc/Rangers/a.n.other team happen to be playing. It's too complex a conflict to reduce to tribalist point scoring.

Hibernia&Alba
18-08-2016, 02:15 PM
That much is clear. People seem to think black and white lines can be drawn and "sides" assumed based on their own prejudices and experiences.

As with most conflicts, there's two perspectives - two sides committing attrocities, two sides peddling questionable agendas, two sides claiming ownership of the same thing.

Only one thing is absolutely clear and 100% beyond any dispute - the Israel/Palestine conflict has absolutely **** all to do with football, irrespective of who Celtc/Rangers a.n.other team happen to be playing. It's too complex a conflict to reduce to tribalist point scoring.


Whilst it's certainly true there are two perspectives and two antagonists, we mustn't fall into the trap of 'both as bad as each other' banality, and I am not accusing you of that. International law says one side is illegally occupied and the other is the occupier. One side is a nuclear power, the other one of the poorest and most densely populated areas on earth. One side has killed civilians a countless multiplication of times the other has. One side openly admits it has used torture against hundreds of thousands of detainees in the past half century, the vast majority of whom were charged with no crime. The people of one side cannot go anywhere without the approval of the other. One side is continually being criticised by international human rights group such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, in addition to groups within its own country. It isn't a dispute between equals.

Of course Israeli policy it isn't the fault of an Israeli football club, but I think sport can publicly shine a light on injustice, as it did against South Africa in the Apartheid era or the Nazi Olympics of 1936; and it was former US President Jimmy Carter (hardly an enemy of Israel) who recently called the Israel-Palestine situation as Apartheid in his book.

Pete
18-08-2016, 02:59 PM
I've not missed your point. Celtic fans' waving Palestinian flags as a show of solidarity is a political statement, especially so when playing an Israeli side. I fail to see how you can derive from that an attempt to paint The Rangers in a bad light. Just because The Rangers fans react predictably says nothing about Celtic fans' actions.

I think you're giving Celtic fans far too much credit. While some of the causes they "support" are admirable, they've developed into this cringeworthy, patronising, arse-sooking mob who supports the little, the oppressed or the stylish. It's no coincidence that rangers have gradually dug their heels in the other way and their modern existence is built on tit for tat provocation and stances.

I'm surprised they don't turn up at away games in a Chevy van led by a guy with a cigar.

hibbygraham
18-08-2016, 03:22 PM
I think you're giving Celtic fans far too much credit. While some of the causes they "support" are admirable, they've developed into this cringeworthy, patronising, arse-sooking mob who supports the little, the oppressed or the stylish. It's no coincidence that rangers have gradually dug their heels in the other way and their modern existence is built on tit for tat provocation and stances.

I'm surprised they don't turn up at away games in a Chevy van led by a guy with a cigar.

Don't quite see how it's "cringeworthy" to support the "little" or "oppressed". (Not sure what you mean with the "stylish" reference.)

Again, I also fail to see how showing solidarity with Palestine before a match against an Israeli side is a provocation to The Rangers. I'm not disputing that The Rangers fans react to it. Just because the reaction is unjustified, however, doesn't mean that the Celtic fans' actions are equally unjustified - in fact it says nothing about the Celtic fans' actions. That's why I don't understand the "tit for tat" references.

ballengeich
18-08-2016, 03:39 PM
The football question is what action will UEFA take. Celtic's supporters have got their club into trouble on several occasions previously, but punishment has consisted of token fines relative to the gate receipts at a big European game. A more significant punishment must be a possibility this time given their recidivism.

For their other supporters, whatever their opinions about the Middle East, the stupidity of the flag carriers must be infuriating given the potential consequences to the club. Wouldn't it be a shame if part of Celtic Park had to be closed for a future match?

Mr White
18-08-2016, 03:52 PM
Wouldn't it be a shame if part of Celtic Park had to be closed for a future match?

If I could choose an area I'd pick the visiting teams goalmouth. With a roller shutter or similar. Obviously they'd need to swap it at halftime but if that shouldn't be a problem. That'd learn 'em :cb

GreensesArab
18-08-2016, 04:24 PM
I don't think that is true ..... it may be the case that people have different opinions as to whether its a good idea to start taking sides in the context of what football team you support. It may be the case that people have different opinions on the rights and wrongs of both sides in the conflict, but you would have to have been living in a bubble on the Moon for the last 30 years to be 'blissfully unaware' of what's happening in the middle east. Its one of the facts of life that not everybody is going to be as passionate about a subject as some other people are ..... It doesn't mean they don't care.

When it comes to Israel the whole thing has been a mess since the state was formed after WW2 ..... The rage of the Palestinians is absolutely easy to sympathise with ..... Its hard to imagine any scenario in which the UN would have recognized a state that came into being in the circumstances Israel did and yet they did, to the utter detriment of the Arab / Palestinian population of the region.

On the other hand, for centuries the Jews of Europe had been scapegoated time and time again, sometimes for religious and sometimes for political ends ... who knows how many of them have been massacred and displaced in that time in various pogroms .... with the whole thing coming to a head in WW2 ... its no secret that in many places in Europe folk lined the streets and cheered as the local Jews were lead away to their fate. In those circumstances who could blame the Jews for finally taking things into their own hands and creating a state where their people would finally feel safe ... In the absence of an unoccupied country lying about just waiting to be moved into Palestine was always going to be where they were going to end up. After centuries of misery you can understand why from a Jewish point of view they weren't too bothered about what eggs got broken to make the omelette.

The two sides in this conflict will never agree to live together. Israel will always be there and the Palestinians will always strive to get their homeland back.

After decades of the greatest and stupidest minds on this planet trying to resolve this catch 22 situation I highly doubt that the supporters of two football clubs who are entrenched in their own form of hatred towards one another picking sides is going to do anything to help the situation.



Good post NN and some realistic comments in there. But I still disagree with the location of the Jewish state. Hitler tried to exterminate European Jewry so it would have been appropriate to create the state of Israel in Europe. I can't see anything wrong in that as the surviving European Jews wouldn't have been displaced to the Middle East. And you're right, there was no unoccupied land for them but what about German land? As part of the peace negotiations the victors could have cut a huge swathe out of northern Germany and created a new Israel there. Germany would have been permanently weakened and what an appropriate retribution for trying to destroy the Jewish race in Europe. Then the Palestinians could have remained in 'Palestine' (the Jordan to the Med) where they had lived in peace for over 2000 years.

Kato
18-08-2016, 04:30 PM
. Then the Palestinians could have remained in 'Palestine' (the Jordan to the Med) where they had lived in peace for over 2000 years.


Mmm, that's not quite really how the last 2000 years went.

GreensesArab
18-08-2016, 04:51 PM
Mmm, that's not quite really how the last 2000 years went.


The Palestinian Arabs were a nomadic society and lived in peace. Jews in the region were persecuted by other nations eg Romans, Greeks etc.

NORTHERNHIBBY
18-08-2016, 05:06 PM
I can't remember any PLO chants! How did it go?

I remember hearing Mr Blue Sky at half time.

Scott Allan Key
18-08-2016, 05:40 PM
Religion has an awful lot to answer for.

Totally irrelevant. So does capitalism, socialism, nihilism, egotism, blood nationalism then. Blame football too for all the baggage brought by fan's traditions and tribalism.

Scott Allan Key
18-08-2016, 06:13 PM
Whilst there is a religious angle to the middle-east conflict, Mikey, it's more a conflict about political/territorial self-determination, much like Northern Ireland. There are religious fundamentalists on both the Palestinian and Israeli sides, but that isn't the root cause of the conflict. In any conflict there is blame on both sides, but that doesn't mean responsibility always has to be split fifty-fifty. Israel is an illegal occupier under international law, as mandated by the United Nations following the six day war of 1967, but, with America's total support, can ignore the law. IMHO, it isn't an exaggeration to define Israeli action in the occupied territories as that of a terrorist state, such is the number of civilians, including children, that Israel has killed since its establishment in 1948. The right wing in Israel, led by Likud, is very canny at calling anyone who criticises the policies of the state as anti-Semitic, but it must be remembered there are many voices within Israel that condemn the actions of their own government: I think there are about half a dozen human rights groups in Israel who monitor their government's behaviour inside the occupied territories.

It seems ironic to me that the Jewish state of all states - people who know better than anyone the cost of being degraded and dehumanised - should treat the Palestinians in such an inhuman way. The answer is, of course, a two state solution based upon the pre 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as a shared capital; but Israel has no intention of dismantling all its illegal settlements - again illegal as defined by the United Nations, and will not accept any notion of a shared capital. It goes without saying that I will not support extremist groups in Palestine that target Israeli civilians, though I'm aware it's easy for me to say violence isn't the answer from my cosy peaceful life. It's difficult to see a settlement whilst America continues to give Israel a free hand and protection from international law, and the Jewish lobby in America is very powerful and bellicose; but it is the only power that can reign in the right wing in Israel.

Very good post, I'm mindful to add that Arab people are also Semitic sharing ancestors and also share roots within the Abrahamic traditions and that Palestmians can be Christian, Muslim, Secular. I'm hopeful there is enough common ground between decent people for a one-state secular government in which no religion is paramount. Both a commitment to truth and reconciliation alongside reparations to those who have lost lives, land and homes.

NAE NOOKIE
18-08-2016, 07:20 PM
Good post NN and some realistic comments in there. But I still disagree with the location of the Jewish state. Hitler tried to exterminate European Jewry so it would have been appropriate to create the state of Israel in Europe. I can't see anything wrong in that as the surviving European Jews wouldn't have been displaced to the Middle East. And you're right, there was no unoccupied land for them but what about German land? As part of the peace negotiations the victors could have cut a huge swathe out of northern Germany and created a new Israel there. Germany would have been permanently weakened and what an appropriate retribution for trying to destroy the Jewish race in Europe. Then the Palestinians could have remained in 'Palestine' (the Jordan to the Med) where they had lived in peace for over 2000 years.

Its an interesting thought mate .... but carving large swathes out of Germany at the end of WW1 was one of the reasons we ended up with WW2. If you put aside their military might the greatest thing the Americans brought to the table after WW2 was that they stopped the likes of France and Britain from making the same mistakes they made after WW1 .... they realised both in Germany and Japan that it was not best practice to utterly humiliate your defeated enemy and squeeze them until the pips squeaked for reparations .... you only have to look at how successful and peaceful both countries have been since to appreciate what a sensible policy it was that the Americans followed.

The truth is that as far as the Jews are concerned there can be no such thing as a new Israel .... to them the region they currently occupy is and always was their 'promised land' ..... It also has to be said that the attitudes of the times would have been against such a move in Europe, even given the excesses of Nazi Germany it didn't change what was a prevailing attitude of anti Semitism in most European countries and in North America ... watching white Christian Europeans ( even German ones ) being forcibly evicted from their towns and cities to make way for Jews would have went down like a lead balloon.

Whereas pretty well nobody who mattered was going to give a rats arse as a bunch of dirty Arabs who followed a religion that very few people understood and whose culture was even less understood were chucked out of their country in order to make way for people who at least deserved something ...... If that something was a windswept collection of scrub and sand dunes at the arse end of the Med with little or no natural resources currently occupied by people of no consequence who was going to care.

Renfrew_Hibby
18-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Has anyone heard of the Jewish city that Stalin or Lenin created in the far far east of Siberia? I'm sure I read something about it ages ago. It was to preserve their culture in isolation and protect it from advancing Nazis. I'm sure its still there and thriving but no idea what its called.

Famous Fiver
18-08-2016, 07:33 PM
Not read all the way through this thread but do Celtic not have an Israeli that plays for them but no Palestinians?

How many Israelis do Rangers have on their books? None, I think.

What a strange world............

J-C
18-08-2016, 07:37 PM
A family member works in the bank at Tollcross and heard them abusing people walking in to the Israeli fringe show that was on. People unfortunately choose to talk about the abuse rather than the reason for protest which is why I feel its counter productive in spreading awareness.


Is there an Israeli fringe show going on there? that would explain the demo instead of an Israeli team playing Celtic, I was just curious why the demo was there at Tollcross, just seemed a random place to do one.

I also agree re your comments on Palestine and Israel.

Mr White
18-08-2016, 07:39 PM
I think this stuff goes a little deeper than rangers and celtc tbh. There are Palestinian symbols and references on the murals in the falls road in belfast and I've seen a few star of david flags in other parts of ulster too. Most likely it's another case of these two clubs bringing sad imagery from Northern Ireland to the table of Scottish football, kind of like a pair of disturbed primary school kids who'll happily **** themselves in class so everyone else has to put up with the smell.

Sir David Gray
18-08-2016, 07:41 PM
Whilst I certainly don't share their political point of view, I don't see how UEFA can fine or punish Celtic because their fans waved Palestinian flags.

On the flipside, I hate seeing politics brought into a football stadium.

Renfrew_Hibby
18-08-2016, 07:47 PM
Has anyone heard of the Jewish city that Stalin or Lenin created in the far far east of Siberia? I'm sure I read something about it ages ago. It was to preserve their culture in isolation and protect it from advancing Nazis. I'm sure its still there and thriving but no idea what its called.

Birobidzhan is the name of the city and it's the capital of an autonomous Jewish state in Russia's far East on the border with NE China and home to 75,000 people!

Who would have though that communist USSR would have created a mini Israel inside its own borders and its still going strong.

It was under Stalin that the Jewish state was formed and is the only other official Jewish state in the world along with Israel itself.

ballengeich
18-08-2016, 07:56 PM
Whilst I certainly don't share their political point of view, I don't see how UEFA can fine or punish Celtic because their fans waved Palestinian flags.

On the flipside, I hate seeing politics brought into a football stadium.

UEFA regulations forbid political demonstrations at games so they can impose penalties on Celtic as a club is responsible for the behaviour of its supporters.

theonlywayisup
18-08-2016, 08:03 PM
The DR had an article about Falkirk and Hibs fans fighting after the recent game.

I'm sure that the DR will have an article about the The Rangers and Palestinian fans fighting, especially as this will be a bigger news story as it has a European context.

:tumble:

HiBremian
18-08-2016, 08:03 PM
UEFA regulations forbid political demonstrations at games so they can impose penalties on Celtic as a club is responsible for the behaviour of its supporters.

The trouble is "political" is a highly subjective term. If the huns have union jacks and ulster crosses flying at a euro game would the same "regulation" apply?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Mixu62
18-08-2016, 08:11 PM
A family member works in the bank at Tollcross and heard them abusing people walking in to the Israeli fringe show that was on. People unfortunately choose to talk about the abuse rather than the reason for protest which is why I feel its counter productive in spreading awareness.


Is that the West Bank we're all talking about?! I'll get me coat.

Sir David Gray
18-08-2016, 08:20 PM
UEFA regulations forbid political demonstrations at games so they can impose penalties on Celtic as a club is responsible for the behaviour of its supporters.

Is the waving of a national flag a political demonstration?

Did the Celtic fans do anything else last night, i.e. banners, chants etc?

If it was just flag waving then that is extremely harsh.

hibsbollah
18-08-2016, 08:20 PM
I thought the display was fantastic at a time when Israel is suppressing discussion or criticism of their illegal occupation. I can't stand their club but Celtc fans did themselves proud as far as I'm concerned .

Dashing Bob S
18-08-2016, 08:27 PM
Here's how it works:
1. Celtic have no connection with Palestine. A few well meaning lefty political types decide to wave Palestine flags in solidarity/support.
2. A more sheepish Celtic element with an exhibtionist streak take this up and start equating Palestines struggle with Ireland's.
3. Rangers have no connection with Israel. Some Rangers fans see the Celtic fans waving Palestine flags, so in order to wind them up, fly Israeli flags. They find out about the oppressive nature of the Israeli state on this issue, and as they are the servile groupies of establishment power, get with this 'cause'.

4. Seig Hieling Huns then get a little confused cause they were, well, born that way, but fly Star of David flags anyway.

livi hibs 1875
18-08-2016, 08:29 PM
Whilst it's certainly true there are two perspectives and two antagonists, we mustn't fall into the trap of 'both as bad as each other' banality, and I am not accusing you of that. International law says one side is illegally occupied and the other is the occupier. One side is a nuclear power, the other one of the poorest and most densely populated areas on earth. One side has killed civilians a countless multiplication of times the other has. One side openly admits it has used torture against hundreds of thousands of detainees in the past half century, the vast majority of whom were charged with no crime. The people of one side cannot go anywhere without the approval of the other. One side is continually being criticised by international human rights group such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, in addition to groups within its own country. It isn't a dispute between equals.

Of course Israeli policy it isn't the fault of an Israeli football club, but I think sport can publicly shine a light on injustice, as it did against South Africa in the Apartheid era or the Nazi Olympics of 1936; and it was former US President Jimmy Carter (hardly an enemy of Israel) who recently called the Israel-Palestine situation as Apartheid in his book.
This

ballengeich
18-08-2016, 08:31 PM
Is the waving of a national flag a political demonstration?

Did the Celtic fans do anything else last night, i.e. banners, chants etc?

If it was just flag waving then that is extremely harsh.

If Celtic had a Palestinian player then I could see some ambiguity about the flags. They don't, so the only reason for the display was political expression, and whatever opinion you have about the Middle East it was a breach of UEFA regulations.

Stax
18-08-2016, 08:37 PM
Here's how it works:
1. Celtic have no connection with Palestine. A few well meaning lefty political types decide to wave Palestine flags in solidarity/support.
2. A more sheepish Celtic element with an exhibtionist streak take this up and start equating Palestines struggle with Ireland's.
3. Rangers have no connection with Israel. Some Rangers fans see the Celtic fans waving Palestine flags, so in order to wind them up, fly Israeli flags. They find out about the oppressive nature of the Israeli state on this issue, and as they are the servile groupies of establishment power, get with this 'cause'.

4. Seig Hieling Huns then get a little confused cause they were, well, born that way, but fly Star of David flags anyway.
That sounds as far fetched as an international company (Volvic) not showing an advert in Scotland called proud to be orange...

Sir David Gray
18-08-2016, 08:40 PM
If Celtic had a Palestinian player then I could see some ambiguity about the flags. They don't, so the only reason for the display was political expression, and whatever opinion you have about the Middle East it was a breach of UEFA regulations.

I know that the reasoning behind the display was a political protest but the simple act of flying a flag shouldn't be something that is deemed offensive or against any rules.

If they were singing songs about the conflict or holding up banners (maybe they were?) then that would put a different slant on things for me.

And I'm not sure if you're aware of my opinions on the Middle East but I certainly can't be accused of being pro-Palestinian. I'm probably the most pro-Israel person on this forum.

ballengeich
18-08-2016, 08:42 PM
Here's how it works:
1. Celtic have no connection with Palestine. A few well meaning lefty political types decide to wave Palestine flags in solidarity/support.
2. A more sheepish Celtic element with an exhibtionist streak take this up and start equating Palestines struggle with Ireland's.
3. Rangers have no connection with Israel. Some Rangers fans see the Celtic fans waving Palestine flags, so in order to wind them up, fly Israeli flags. They find out about the oppressive nature of the Israeli state on this issue, and as they are the servile groupies of establishment power, get with this 'cause'.

4. Seig Hieling Huns then get a little confused cause they were, well, born that way, but fly Star of David flags anyway.

A magnificent justification for UEFA's rules against political demonstrations at football games.

ballengeich
18-08-2016, 08:58 PM
I know that the reasoning behind the display was a political protest but the simple act of flying a flag shouldn't be something that is deemed offensive or against any rules.

If they were singing songs about the conflict or holding up banners (maybe they were?) then that would put a different slant on things for me.

And I'm not sure if you're aware of my opinions on the Middle East but I certainly can't be accused of being pro-Palestinian. I'm probably the most pro-Israel person on this forum.

I don't agree with your differentiation between flying flags and singing or displaying other banners. A political demonstration is a political demonstration regardless of the senses it's directed to and Celtic's fans breached UEFA regulations. They've done that before, though not always by political displays.

I've been staying out of expressing opinions on the Middle East in this thread - that belongs on the Holy Ground forum. I'm pro the people of both communities who want to achieve peace and co-existence (they do exist). That puts me against both current sets of political leaders.

.Sean.
18-08-2016, 09:06 PM
One of them was wearing a Gazza strip
This is probably my favourite post ever :faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

Dunbar Hibee
18-08-2016, 10:08 PM
I thought the display was fantastic at a time when Israel is suppressing discussion or criticism of their illegal occupation. I can't stand their club but Celtc fans did themselves proud as far as I'm concerned .

Fully agreed mate.

jacomo
18-08-2016, 10:20 PM
If Celtic had a Palestinian player then I could see some ambiguity about the flags. They don't, so the only reason for the display was political expression, and whatever opinion you have about the Middle East it was a breach of UEFA regulations.

UEFA can f*** themselves.

Continual failure to get a grip on racist chanting, yet try to limit legitimate freedom of expression.

People say politics has no place in football, but life is political. I agree that the Celtc's adoption of the Palestinian cause is largely self-serving, like so much that they do, but banning national flags? Seriously?

Kato
18-08-2016, 10:42 PM
I think this stuff goes a little deeper than rangers and celtc tbh. There are Palestinian symbols and references on the murals in the falls road in belfast and I've seen a few star of david flags in other parts of ulster too. Most likely it's another case of these two clubs bringing sad imagery from Northern Ireland to the table of Scottish football, kind of like a pair of disturbed primary school kids who'll happily **** themselves in class so everyone else has to put up with the smell.


The Orange Order started using Hebrew symbolism very early on in its history.

monktonharp
18-08-2016, 11:28 PM
Is there an Israeli fringe show going on there? that would explain the demo instead of an Israeli team playing Celtic, I was just curious why the demo was there at Tollcross, just seemed a random place to do one.

I also agree re your comments on Palestine and Israel.there is another demo, today outside Newport County's ground( in Wales) where the Welsh wummin's team play Israel. the PLO will be there in numbers.

Dashing Bob S
18-08-2016, 11:30 PM
A magnificent justification for UEFA's rules against political demonstrations at football games.

I think this has to happen. Get rid of national anthems, poppies and all that stuff. Keep it all out of sport.

monktonharp
18-08-2016, 11:31 PM
If Celtic had a Palestinian player then I could see some ambiguity about the flags. They don't, so the only reason for the display was political expression, and whatever opinion you have about the Middle East it was a breach of UEFA regulations.oh dear, what a shame, never mind. Free Palestine

monktonharp
18-08-2016, 11:38 PM
UEFA can f*** themselves.

Continual failure to get a grip on racist chanting, yet try to limit legitimate freedom of expression.

People say politics has no place in football, but life is political. I agree that the Celtc's adoption of the Palestinian cause is largely self-serving, like so much that they do, but banning national flags? Seriously?seen nothing about Celtic fc embracing Palestine, have I missed something? a spontaneous reaction (of sorts) by Celtic fans,? how shocking. let's not dare to take an auld white blanket to ER, with a phrase......ban the daily record......Uefa wont be happy, and Leeaan might feel the same.

blaikie
18-08-2016, 11:49 PM
Both of them will latch on to anything they can, I've spoken to a few Huns in the past through work etc, who lean towards this whole Israeli/Zionist obsession. its a strange one especially when you bring up incidents like the King David Hotel bombing and other incidents when pro Israeli/Zionist leaning groups killed British serviceman and citizens.

If Celtic fans adopted Pepsi in the same way they adopted Palestine bet your bottom dollar the other lot would be backing Coca Cola!

I'm glad I support Hibs!

JimBHibees
19-08-2016, 06:32 AM
Both of them will latch on to anything they can, I've spoken to a few Huns in the past through work etc, who lean towards this whole Israeli/Zionist obsession. its a strange one especially when you bring up incidents like the King David Hotel bombing and other incidents when pro Israeli/Zionist leaning groups killed British serviceman and citizens.

If Celtic fans adopted Pepsi in the same way they adopted Palestine bet your bottom dollar the other lot would be backing Coca Cola!

I'm glad I support Hibs!

Also can remember Rangers fans playing in Israel clearly doing nazi salutes. Very weird and mixed up behaviour and everything that is wrong with the infirm.

Pete
19-08-2016, 06:41 AM
Celtc's adoption of the Palestinian cause is largely self-serving

:agree:

Brand Celtic isn't just about their money men, it's also about the scarf swapping rent-a-mob.

Peevemor
19-08-2016, 07:08 AM
I can't remember any PLO chants! How did it go?

Same tune as "here we go". I got the impression that it was the same handful of people who persisted with the "the merry ploughboy", etc. into the 80s.

Mr White
19-08-2016, 07:12 AM
The Orange Order started using Hebrew symbolism very early on in its history.

I see, that perhaps explains the origin of a lot of this then?

21.05.2016
19-08-2016, 08:06 AM
Both of them will latch on to anything they can, I've spoken to a few Huns in the past through work etc, who lean towards this whole Israeli/Zionist obsession. its a strange one especially when you bring up incidents like the King David Hotel bombing and other incidents when pro Israeli/Zionist leaning groups killed British serviceman and citizens.

If Celtic fans adopted Pepsi in the same way they adopted Palestine bet your bottom dollar the other lot would be backing Coca Cola!

I'm glad I support Hibs!

I agree. Its very much a case of jumping on the bandwagon. Celtic say white, Rangers say black. Anything to create more hatred with each other.

Lancs Harp
20-08-2016, 10:23 PM
Are Celtic taking many fans to the return leg? Good luck with that if they are. Don't think there will be many Palestinian flags on display at that one.

monktonharp
20-08-2016, 10:31 PM
Are Celtic taking many fans to the return leg? Good luck with that if they are. Don't think there will be many Palestinian flags on display at that one.I think you may be surprised

Septimus
21-08-2016, 11:31 AM
I agree that, at the conclusion of WW2, an Israeli "homeland" should have been created within Germany. Of course the USA would never have agreed to this. Zionism exists on the conviction of a race that they actually own a land where at best they were temporary occupants. I once watched a lecture given by Netanyahu in the USA where he "proved" to an audience of American Jews that Palestine belonged to the Jews. He was loudly applauded by those present in a country that historically no more belongs to the "Americans" than Palestine belongs to the Jews. The irony of this seemed to be lost on them.

The USA continually vetoes resolutions brought before the United Nations which might go some way to resolving the problem. I wonder why?

GreenLake
21-08-2016, 12:16 PM
The Orange Order started using Hebrew symbolism very early on in its history.

They probably had an interest in the Kabbalah.

Killiehibbie
21-08-2016, 12:53 PM
seen nothing about Celtic fc embracing Palestine, have I missed something? a spontaneous reaction (of sorts) by Celtic fans,? how shocking. let's not dare to take an auld white blanket to ER, with a phrase......ban the daily record......Uefa wont be happy, and Leeaan might feel the same.
I remember seeing a Celtic with an IRA/PLO same struggle kind of badge 30 odd years ago. Maybe more open nowadays but some of them made the link between occupied countries a while ago.

Cosmic Truth
22-08-2016, 05:05 AM
Criticising Palestinians for objecting to their country being taken off them seems a bit rich when you get violent if someone walks into your half at Hampden.

:greengrin

green&left
22-08-2016, 10:19 AM
See Celtic fans have just raised £30k in about 2 days for two Palestine charities on the back of Wednesday's game.

Fair play to them to be honest

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 11:01 AM
All very fashionable to take up the Palastinian cause. Worth remembering there is only one democracy in the Middle East and put the argument in context. There is no excuse for human rights violations wherever they may come from.

Kato
22-08-2016, 11:19 AM
Worth remembering there is only one democracy in the Middle East and put the argument in context.

Is it really a democracy?

Betty Boop
22-08-2016, 11:36 AM
All very fashionable to take up the Palastinian cause. Worth remembering there is only one democracy in the Middle East and put the argument in context. There is no excuse for human rights violations wherever they may come from.

That'll be Lebanon then ?

ronaldo7
22-08-2016, 02:35 PM
See Celtic fans have just raised £30k in about 2 days for two Palestine charities on the back of Wednesday's game.

Fair play to them to be honest

Nearly 40k now. Fair play to them.

https://t.co/wpGNzcfxb3

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 08:00 PM
That'll be Lebanon then ?

Confessionalism

In terms of human rights, particularly Palastinian human rights really not a good example to throw back at me.

monktonharp
22-08-2016, 08:25 PM
Confessionalism

In terms of human rights, particularly Palastinian human rights really not a good example to throw back at me.the Palestinians, have only heard of human rights, never seen it in action.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 08:56 PM
It isn't Israel that has endured illegal occupation for half a century, according to international law.
It isn't Israel that has been subjected to an illegal blockade for nearly a decade, according to international law.
It isn't Israel that now has over two million of its citizens as refugees, according to international law.
It isn't Israel that has had an illegal partition wall placed within its own borders, according to international law.
Israel isn't one of the poorest and densely populated places on earth.

Let's begin by complying with the law then build upon that for a long term two state solution. Israel and USA are the only countries on earth that vote against the two state solution each year in the UN.

Sir David Gray
22-08-2016, 09:24 PM
All very fashionable to take up the Palastinian cause. Worth remembering there is only one democracy in the Middle East and put the argument in context. There is no excuse for human rights violations wherever they may come from.

Good luck trying to gain support for that point of view.

I personally agree with you though.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 09:29 PM
Good luck trying to gain support for that point of view.

I personally agree with you though.

There were democratic elections in the occupied territories, though, when Hamas won the elections in Gaza, America and Israel refused to accept the result and instead tightened the blockade. It seems democracy is fine as long as you vote for who you are told. We've seen this all before of course e.g. Ireland 1918.

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 09:36 PM
Good luck trying to gain support for that point of view.

I personally agree with you though.

Thanks and I realise it may not be a popularity point of view but I do think the bit that matters, to me at least, is that human rights abuses are intolerable wherever they are happening. Israel has become a very fashionable soft target IMHO.

TheReg!
22-08-2016, 09:41 PM
Good luck trying to gain support for that point of view.

I personally agree with you though.

So do I.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 09:42 PM
Thanks and I realise it may not be a popularity point of view but I do think the bit that matters, to me at least, is that human rights abuses are intolerable wherever they are happening. Israel has become a very fashionable soft target IMHO.

A soft target? How many Israelis have suffered human rights abuses in comparison to Palestinians? Israel is the only country in the world that legalised torture, and itself admits that 'tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands' of Palestinians have been tortured since 1948. That was the verdict of the Israeli supreme court. I fully agree with you that ALL human rights abuses are intolerable, but how many Israelis have been subject to such abuses? This trying to balance the scales of blame doesn't bear scrutiny. There is an illegal occupation and then there are those who are illegally occupied.

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 10:15 PM
A soft target? How many Israelis have suffered human rights abuses in comparison to Palestinians? Israel is the only country in the world that legalised torture, and itself admits that 'tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands' of Palestinians have been tortured since 1948. That was the verdict of the Israeli supreme court. I fully agree with you that ALL human rights abuses are intolerable, but how many Israelis have been subject to such abuses? This trying to balance the scales of blame doesn't bear scrutiny. There is an illegal occupation and then there are those who are illegally occupied.

convenient to refer to Israel and not Jewish people when counting bodies I suppose but two wrongs never made a right. If I had the answer to the Middle East I'd probably not need to buy a drink ever again. I just don't feel that sheepishly following the fashion of bashing one side helps anything. But it does give a few people a feeling of relevance so that can't be a bad thing.

jacomo
22-08-2016, 10:20 PM
A soft target? How many Israelis have suffered human rights abuses in comparison to Palestinians? Israel is the only country in the world that legalised torture, and itself admits that 'tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands' of Palestinians have been tortured since 1948. That was the verdict of the Israeli supreme court. I fully agree with you that ALL human rights abuses are intolerable, but how many Israelis have been subject to such abuses? This trying to balance the scales of blame doesn't bear scrutiny. There is an illegal occupation and then there are those who are illegally occupied.

The real question is, what can be done to bring about peace?

Monsters like Netanyahu feed on fear and insecurity. Whatever else you may think (and I am not dismissing your points at all), Israelis feel insecure, and more generally Jews feel worried that their legitimacy is being questioned again.

I would suggest that waving Palestinian flags just because an Israeli team is in town is not helpful. At best, it's crass and insensitive.

hibsbollah
22-08-2016, 10:26 PM
convenient to refer to Israel and not Jewish people when counting bodies I suppose but two wrongs never made a right. If I had the answer to the Middle East I'd probably not need to buy a drink ever again. I just don't feel that sheepishly following the fashion of bashing one side helps anything. But it does give a few people a feeling of relevance so that can't be a bad thing.

Patronising twaddle. Especially the 'giving people relevance' bit. Especially 'sheepishly following fashion' bit. And the first sentence is just meaningless unless you're making reference to the holocaust or something :dunno: Sorry to pick apart your entire post but its just not that great really.

Surely it's time this thread got moved to the holy ground?

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 10:27 PM
The real question is, what can be done to bring about peace?

Monsters like Netanyahu feed on fear and insecurity. Whatever else you may think (and I am not dismissing your points at all), Israelis feel insecure, and more generally Jews feel worried that their legitimacy is being questioned again.

I would suggest that waving Palestinian flags just because an Israeli team is in town is not helpful. At best, it's crass and insensitive.

Respect for international law is surely the basis for peace. A two state solution based upon the ending of the illegal occupation, dismantlement of the illegal settlements and partition wall, and ending the illegal blockade. Mutual recognition and a commitment to human rights and democracy on both sides. A two state solution; the very thing every country bar America and Israel votes for annually at the UN.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 10:28 PM
convenient to refer to Israel and not Jewish people when counting bodies I suppose but two wrongs never made a right. If I had the answer to the Middle East I'd probably not need to buy a drink ever again. I just don't feel that sheepishly following the fashion of bashing one side helps anything. But it does give a few people a feeling of relevance so that can't be a bad thing.

What on earth do you mean by that?

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 10:31 PM
Patronising twaddle. Especially the 'giving people relevance' bit. Especially 'sheepishly following fashion' bit. And the first sentence is just meaningless unless you're making reference to the holocaust or something :dunno: Sorry to pick apart your entire post but its just not that great really.

Surely it's time this thread got moved to the holy ground?

Hey! Don't be sorry. It's all about opinions. Two especiallies is a good thing. Picking up banners may not be if it excludes acknowledgement of there being two sides to a argument.

hibsbollah
22-08-2016, 10:36 PM
Hey! Don't be sorry. It's all about opinions. Two especiallies is a good thing. Picking up banners may not be if it excludes acknowledgement of there being two sides to a argument.

...or maybe it's more logical to make an objective analysis of the facts, and come down on the 'side' you believe is overwhelmingly the oppressed against the 'side' who is the aggressor and the tyrant? Or is that just a 'fashionable' approach to take?

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 10:36 PM
Hey! Don't be sorry. It's all about opinions. Two especiallies is a good thing. Picking up banners may not be if it excludes acknowledgement of there being two sides to a argument.

Of course there is, but that doesn't mean we map some sort of graph with the most extreme views of the belligerents at each end, then draw a line down the middle, equidistant from each, in order to find the truth, before apportioning blame fifty-fifty. We look at the evidence; it's the only way. What does the record show? What is the international consensus? What does the work of the best scholars reveal? Here we have a chance to draw our own conclusions.

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 10:43 PM
What on earth do you mean by that?

I mean it is convenient to refer to Israel which came in to being in 1948 and was recognised by the UN in 1949 thereby dismissing any human rights violation against Jewish people before then. This idea that somehow there are only bad things happening to one set of people is to distort reality. I say again, in my opinion, human rights violations are intolerable regardless of who commits them

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 10:47 PM
I mean it is convenient to refer to Israel which came in to being in 1948 and was recognised by the UN in 1949 thereby dismissing any human rights violation against Jewish people before then. This idea that somehow there are only bad things happening to one set of people is to distort reality. I say again, in my opinion, human rights violations are intolerable regardless of who commits them


But what do any human rights violations against Jews before 1948/49 have to do with the illegal occupation of Palestine since 1967 by Israel? I don't see your point here, as you seem to be conflating two issues. I hope you aren't going down the road of accusing anyone who criticises Israeli policy in Palestine of anti-Semitism!

jacomo
22-08-2016, 10:54 PM
But what do any human rights violations against Jews before 1948/49 have to do with the illegal occupation of Palestine since 1967 by Israel? I don't see your point here, as you seem to be conflating two issues. I hope you aren't going down the road of accusing anyone who criticises Israeli policy in Palestine of anti-Semitism!

No, but you can't just dismiss the context and reasons for the six day war and subsequent occupation. Otherwise it makes no sense.

jacomo
22-08-2016, 10:55 PM
Respect for international law is surely the basis for peace. A two state solution based upon the ending of the illegal occupation, dismantlement of the illegal settlements and partition wall, and ending the illegal blockade. Mutual recognition and a commitment to human rights and democracy on both sides. A two state solution; the very thing every country bar America and Israel votes for annually at the UN.

Sure. But the point is, it hasn't happened, and simply blaming America and Israel isn't going to get us anywhere.

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 10:57 PM
But what do any human rights violations against Jews before 1948/49 have to do with the illegal occupation of Palestine since 1967 by Israel? I don't see your point here, as you seem to be conflating two issues. I hope you aren't going down the road of accusing anyone who criticises Israeli policy in Palestine of anti-Semitism!
The question was "how many Israelis have suffered human rights violations compared to Palestinians"
I have no idea what the answer is to that. But if there had to be some sort of sick body count I make the point it is very convenient to dismiss anything that happened before 1948.
I think we need to acknowledge that the Middle East is a huge problem that will not be resolved on a football forum or by a few flag wavers at a football park.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 10:57 PM
No, but you can't just dismiss the context and reasons for the six day war and subsequent occupation. Otherwise it makes no sense.

Of course you can't. But the Six Day War didn't happen before 1948/49, nor could it ever excuse a half century occupation. International law is very clear that the acquisition of territory by war is illegal. This is set in stone.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 11:00 PM
The question was "how many Israelis have suffered human rights violations compared to Palestinians"
I have no idea what the answer is to that. But if there had to be some sort of sick body count I make the point it is very convenient to dismiss anything that happened before 1948.
I think we need to acknowledge that the Middle East is a huge problem that will not be resolved on a football forum or by a few flag wavers at a football park.

But you haven't said why anything that happened before 1948 is a justification to what has been declared an illegal occupation by the UN since 1967.

Of course the middle east mess won't be solved on a football forum, but I don't see the point you're making.

CentreLine
22-08-2016, 11:11 PM
But you haven't said why anything that happened before 1948 is a justification to what has been declared an illegal occupation by the UN since 1967.

Of course the middle east mess won't be solved on a football forum, but I don't see the point you're making.

I have said quite clearly that human rights violations are abhorrent. I have not suggested for one minute that I agree with the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. In fact I would like to make it clear that I disagree with it. However, I cannot fathom why we have flag wavers dismissing the violations committed within the many other countries in the Middle East and dismissing the threat people within Israel face every day and night

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 11:17 PM
I have said quite clearly that human rights violations are abhorrent. I have not suggested for one minute that I agree with the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. In fact I would like to make it clear that I disagree with it. However, I cannot fathom why we have flag wavers dismissing the violations committed within the many other countries in the Middle East and dismissing the threat people within Israel face every day and night

What threat is this, and how significant is this 'threat'? Furthermore, what is happening in other middle-east countries is separate from what is happening in Israel-Palestine, which is the issue at hand. That isn't to dismiss the issue but to point out it has nothing to do with the Palestinians.

monktonharp
22-08-2016, 11:42 PM
Hey! Don't be sorry. It's all about opinions. Two especiallies is a good thing. Picking up banners may not be if it excludes acknowledgement of there being two sides to a argument.the Main urgument, and it is hardly an argument , more of a FACT is that the Israelis have occupied another country's land and are expanding their occupation at a pace . they are building, and if Palestinians build they will demolish. these are facts, and they wont allow free movement of a whole people, and are quite prepared to gun down young people or imprison them with no charge. how can you support a side that try to take the moral ground, when all the world see's what is happening? with the exception of good oul' uncle Sam that is.

hibee_nation
22-08-2016, 11:44 PM
After watching Simon Sharmas history of the Jews series I can fully understand why Israel does not give a hoot for public opinion.

Hibernia&Alba
22-08-2016, 11:51 PM
After watching Simon Sharmas history of the Jews series I can fully understand why Israel does not give a hoot for public opinion.

Or international law. Crimes of the past cannot be used to justify crimes of the present; rather we all hold each other to the same moral standard. There is no excuse for what is happening to Palestinian men, women and children, just as there was no excuse for what was done to Jewish men, women and children in the past. If we truly value human rights, we must try to address all injustice equally, rather than discuss a hierarchy of suffering. Very few in the UK or Ireland, for example, condoned IRA murder of civilians here on the basis of our murderous policy in Ireland, and rightly so. We can't separate ourselves from what is just, thereby absolving ourselves of inhumanity. Innocents bear no responsibility for behaviour beyond their control.

monktonharp
23-08-2016, 12:05 AM
Or international law. Crimes of the past cannot be used to justify crimes of the present; rather we all hold each other to the same moral standard. There is no excuse for what is happening to Palestinian men, women and children, just as there was no excuse for what was done to Jewish men, women and children in the past. If we truly value human rights, we must try to address all injustice equally, rather than discuss a hierarchy of suffering. Very few in the UK or Ireland, for example, condoned IRA murder of civilians here on the basis of our murderous policy in Ireland, and rightly so. We can't separate ourselves from what is just, thereby absolving ourselves of inhumanity. Innocents bear no responsibility for behaviour beyond their control.eloquently put, and precise. learned proffesors/politicians and Hibernian fans pease note

hibee_nation
23-08-2016, 12:12 AM
eloquently put, and precise. learned proffesors/politicians and Hibernian fans pease note

Is that mushy or frozen. ☺

monktonharp
23-08-2016, 12:28 AM
Is that mushy or frozen. ☺just take it whatever way you like:na na:

monktonharp
23-08-2016, 12:39 AM
64 artillery shells landed in Gaza last night. one 17 year old was severely injured, 3 children had panic attacks. not so bad a night, in the grand scheme of things eh?

cabbageandribs1875
23-08-2016, 01:01 AM
64 artillery shells landed in Gaza last night. one 17 year old was severely injured, 3 children had panic attacks. not so bad a night, in the grand scheme of things eh?


why were the shells launched in the first place ? i mean surely the israelis wouldn't launch attacks just for the fun of it :dunno:

Dashing Bob S
23-08-2016, 02:07 AM
64 artillery shells landed in Gaza last night. one 17 year old was severely injured, 3 children had panic attacks. not so bad a night, in the grand scheme of things eh?

Rangers suffered far, far much worse at the hands of Hibs fans at Hampden, in one of the greatest atrocities of our time. You would think that they would be able to empathise with the plight of the Palestinians.

jacomo
23-08-2016, 03:30 AM
Rangers suffered far, far much worse at the hands of Hibs fans at Hampden, in one of the greatest atrocities of our time. You would think that they would be able to empathise with the plight of the Palestinians.

Nah, they are fuming because not a single Palestinian got in touch with the Rangers after 21.05.16 to check they were OK.

Apparently the Palestinians have been silent on the matter, despite Gordon Smith assuring them that it was 'much, much worse' than the Israel-Gaza conflict in 2014.

hibsbollah
23-08-2016, 06:15 AM
After watching Simon Sharmas history of the Jews series I can fully understand why Israel does not give a hoot for public opinion.

It's a very good series. However, It doesn't tell you any more about the state of Israel than a TVs series about Christianity would give you an understanding about say, Belgium.

RoxburghHibs
23-08-2016, 06:29 AM
I glanced at this thread title, from my phone, and thought Mixu had been scrapping with Der Hun! 😁

GreenLake
23-08-2016, 06:56 AM
All very fashionable to take up the Palastinian cause. Worth remembering there is only one democracy in the Middle East and put the argument in context. There is no excuse for human rights violations wherever they may come from.

Iran had one which was overthrown and a ruthless friendly dictator was installed circa 1953. The West doesn't seem to mind the lack of democracy in many of our friendliest and brutal Middle East regimes.

CentreLine
23-08-2016, 07:39 AM
the Main urgument, and it is hardly an argument , more of a FACT is that the Israelis have occupied another country's land and are expanding their occupation at a pace . they are building, and if Palestinians build they will demolish. these are facts, and they wont allow free movement of a whole people, and are quite prepared to gun down young people or imprison them with no charge. how can you support a side that try to take the moral ground, when all the world see's what is happening? with the exception of good oul' uncle Sam that is.

You accuse me of supporting the Israeli position despite my making it clear that I do not. I have made arguments suggesting that people look at both sides and the broader picture. Israel is surrounded by countries and regimes, including the Palestinian regime, who's avoud position is the absolute destruction of Israel. We have heard on this thread plenty of how dreadful the actions of the Israeli regime are in imposing their absolutely illegal occupation of the West Bank. My argument is against the one sided debate where nobody is discussing the surrounding multi arabnational threat to Israel, the constant rockets and bombs launched in to Israel every day and through the night. No discussion about the terrorist attacks on israeli towns and villages where people are being killed in armed attacks and incidents where vehicles are being driven in to bus queues and people going about their daily business. The arguments go much deeper than israel's disgraceful mistreatment of the Palestinian people. Take the time to have a look at human rights abuses committed by other Arab nations against Palestinian refugees. Since it was thrown at me as pillar of democracy and virtue in the region, start with Lebanon.

Please do not accuse me of supporting Israel's behaviour I absolutely do not but I am not blinkered enough to think there are not wrongs on all sides that need to be addressed.

If people are looking for a cause to support against an illegal occupation of another country perhaps they should look at somewhere like Ukraine? Or is Russia a much harder target than Israel?

WhileTheChief..
23-08-2016, 09:24 AM
That's a good point re Russia and Ukraine.

Thing is that no one rails against Russian aggression cause they're not the evil Americans.

Most of the support for Palestine comes from the Left of politics and is more to do with hating capitalism and the USA, and by extension Israel, than it is to to with heart felt feelings for those from Palestine.

If it was Russia supporting Israel instead of USA you'd never have all this support for Palestine.

jacomo
23-08-2016, 10:39 AM
You accuse me of supporting the Israeli position despite my making it clear that I do not. I have made arguments suggesting that people look at both sides and the broader picture. Israel is surrounded by countries and regimes, including the Palestinian regime, who's avoud position is the absolute destruction of Israel. We have heard on this thread plenty of how dreadful the actions of the Israeli regime are in imposing their absolutely illegal occupation of the West Bank. My argument is against the one sided debate where nobody is discussing the surrounding multi arabnational threat to Israel, the constant rockets and bombs launched in to Israel every day and through the night. No discussion about the terrorist attacks on israeli towns and villages where people are being killed in armed attacks and incidents where vehicles are being driven in to bus queues and people going about their daily business. The arguments go much deeper than israel's disgraceful mistreatment of the Palestinian people. Take the time to have a look at human rights abuses committed by other Arab nations against Palestinian refugees. Since it was thrown at me as pillar of democracy and virtue in the region, start with Lebanon.

Please do not accuse me of supporting Israel's behaviour I absolutely do not but I am not blinkered enough to think there are not wrongs on all sides that need to be addressed.

If people are looking for a cause to support against an illegal occupation of another country perhaps they should look at somewhere like Ukraine? Or is Russia a much harder target than Israel?

Well said.

Israel and Palestine is one of the world's most difficult issues, bound up in thousands of years of history.

It is tragic that no progress has been made in the past decade, but people should at least accept that it is a complex issue and not as straightforward as some make out.

As an aside, I see Celtc fans have raised £80k plus for Palestinian charities this week, which is to be commended, even if I have reservations about their flag display.

Scott Allan Key
23-08-2016, 11:37 AM
You accuse me of supporting the Israeli position despite my making it clear that I do not. I have made arguments suggesting that people look at both sides and the broader picture. Israel is surrounded by countries and regimes, including the Palestinian regime, who's avoud position is the absolute destruction of Israel. We have heard on this thread plenty of how dreadful the actions of the Israeli regime are in imposing their absolutely illegal occupation of the West Bank. My argument is against the one sided debate where nobody is discussing the surrounding multi arabnational threat to Israel, the constant rockets and bombs launched in to Israel every day and through the night. No discussion about the terrorist attacks on israeli towns and villages where people are being killed in armed attacks and incidents where vehicles are being driven in to bus queues and people going about their daily business. The arguments go much deeper than israel's disgraceful mistreatment of the Palestinian people. Take the time to have a look at human rights abuses committed by other Arab nations against Palestinian refugees. Since it was thrown at me as pillar of democracy and virtue in the region, start with Lebanon.

Please do not accuse me of supporting Israel's behaviour I absolutely do not but I am not blinkered enough to think there are not wrongs on all sides that need to be addressed.

If people are looking for a cause to support against an illegal occupation of another country perhaps they should look at somewhere like Ukraine? Or is Russia a much harder target than Israel?

I would say you'd be wrong to assert that Israel is surrounded by nations, Arab/Persian or otherwise interested in the absolute destruction of Israel. A country named after a tribe of people who have in the recent past and still reside in other countries one might view as hostile. I'll give Iran and Morocco as two examples where Jews have the rights in their country of birth or residence, that renders them happier, more peaceful and importantly, equally valued citizens. If Palestinians had those rights in Israel, then there wouldn't be this debate as there would be no armed insurrection.

The use of suicide bombings by Hamas is unacceptable as it does target innocents, not just armed combatants. Point taken, and I do believe that there will need to be acceptance that a large group of people on usurped land may not relinquish this, but that does mean dialogue has to start between people within Palestine/Israel, not by forced separation and perpetual external and internalised conflict as a result of taking sides. The only people who might resolve the issue of conflict are one in an inner state of peace. Both Jews (rather than Zionists) and Muslim and Christian Arabs have shared beliefs and mutual figures of veneration. I might even suggest that football could be a uniting factor.

There has to be an element of making amends and even forgive and forget, or every side will continue to make it how hard done by they are. There is some burgeoning revival of the link between Sufism and Jewish spirituality amongst Jews in Israel. If Hollywood can make a biopic of Rumi, the Muslim Sufi master, and we known how immersed with people of Jewish origin, Hollywood is (not a bad thing), then it may signify just a bit of patience is required before the identity politics nutters and materialism masquerading as religiousity fades away.

Kato
23-08-2016, 12:19 PM
Rangers suffered far, far much worse at the hands of Hibs fans at Hampden, in one of the greatest atrocities of our time.

Check this live periscope feed of Lee's ongoing trauma.

https://twitter.com/kennymac07/status/746005797709189125

cabbageandribs1875
23-08-2016, 12:20 PM
You accuse me of supporting the Israeli position despite my making it clear that I do not. I have made arguments suggesting that people look at both sides and the broader picture. Israel is surrounded by countries and regimes, including the Palestinian regime, who's avoud position is the absolute destruction of Israel. We have heard on this thread plenty of how dreadful the actions of the Israeli regime are in imposing their absolutely illegal occupation of the West Bank. My argument is against the one sided debate where nobody is discussing the surrounding multi arabnational threat to Israel, the constant rockets and bombs launched in to Israel every day and through the night. No discussion about the terrorist attacks on israeli towns and villages where people are being killed in armed attacks and incidents where vehicles are being driven in to bus queues and people going about their daily business. The arguments go much deeper than israel's disgraceful mistreatment of the Palestinian people. Take the time to have a look at human rights abuses committed by other Arab nations against Palestinian refugees. Since it was thrown at me as pillar of democracy and virtue in the region, start with Lebanon.

Please do not accuse me of supporting Israel's behaviour I absolutely do not but I am not blinkered enough to think there are not wrongs on all sides that need to be addressed.

If people are looking for a cause to support against an illegal occupation of another country perhaps they should look at somewhere like Ukraine? Or is Russia a much harder target than Israel?


very good post, i do like balanced opinions :agree:

jacomo
23-08-2016, 12:29 PM
Check this live periscope feed of Lee's ongoing trauma.

https://twitter.com/kennymac07/status/746005797709189125

Simply horrible to watch.

I'm off to turn myself in. Don't think I've ever been within touching distance of Lee Wallace, but as a Hibby I must be presumed guilty.

Ozyhibby
23-08-2016, 12:32 PM
The media publicity, raised awareness of the Palestinians plight and the £100k raised for charity means that this flag display by Celtic fans has succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.
Celtic will happily pay the fine coming their way, safe in the knowledge that the good will it has generated around the world makes it a great investment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Kato
23-08-2016, 12:34 PM
Simply horrible to watch.

I'm off to turn myself in. Don't think I've ever been within touching distance of Lee Wallace, but as a Hibby I must be presumed guilty.

We'll be out by Christmas.

monktonharp
23-08-2016, 03:12 PM
I glanced at this thread title, from my phone, and thought Mixu had been scrapping with Der Hun! 😁which tells us, you don't really want to get involved in the affairs where children and auld women are being petrified on a daily basis, just be cause of their colour/creed.

Hibernian Verse
23-08-2016, 03:42 PM
Has anyone asked Nir Bitton what he thinks of the Celtic fans doing this?

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Kato
23-08-2016, 03:54 PM
Has anyone asked Nir Bitton what he thinks of the Celtic fans doing this?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


Not every Israeli supports their governments actions.

Keyser Sauzee
23-08-2016, 04:08 PM
which tells us, you don't really want to get involved in the affairs where children and auld women are being petrified on a daily basis, just be cause of their colour/creed.

I thinks that's quite harsh tbh, you've made your stance on the subject clear which is fine but to have a dig at someone on a FOOTBALL forum, not a political one btw, is wrong. This thread was initially about Rangers fans fighting and has now gone onto a separate non football related debate which should be moved to the Holy Ground.

hibsbollah
23-08-2016, 04:14 PM
You accuse me of supporting the Israeli position despite my making it clear that I do not. I have made arguments suggesting that people look at both sides and the broader picture. Israel is surrounded by countries and regimes, including the Palestinian regime, who's avoud position is the absolute destruction of Israel. We have heard on this thread plenty of how dreadful the actions of the Israeli regime are in imposing their absolutely illegal occupation of the West Bank. My argument is against the one sided debate where nobody is discussing the surrounding multi arabnational threat to Israel, the constant rockets and bombs launched in to Israel every day and through the night. No discussion about the terrorist attacks on israeli towns and villages where people are being killed in armed attacks and incidents where vehicles are being driven in to bus queues and people going about their daily business. The arguments go much deeper than israel's disgraceful mistreatment of the Palestinian people. Take the time to have a look at human rights abuses committed by other Arab nations against Palestinian refugees. Since it was thrown at me as pillar of democracy and virtue in the region, start with Lebanon.

Please do not accuse me of supporting Israel's behaviour I absolutely do not but I am not blinkered enough to think there are not wrongs on all sides that need to be addressed.

If people are looking for a cause to support against an illegal occupation of another country perhaps they should look at somewhere like Ukraine? Or is Russia a much harder target than Israel?

'No one is discussing the surrounding multinational threat to Israel'???

This is a distortion of the facts. The supposed 'threat' to Israel is discussed ad nauseum on the main stream media, because it is the western position. Israel in fact is armed to the teeth with military hardware that could destroy its neighbours many times over, and is the only one of its neighbours to have nuclear weapons. How often do you hear about Israels military might in this context? How often do you hear about Irans nuclear weapons program, despite the fact it hasn't actually been proven to exist yet? I bet there is ten times the coverage of one over the other. And what is this massive US supplied military deployed against? Teenagers with stones sick to death living under apartheid conditions.

You clearly are supporting the Israeli position, whether you acknowledge it or not, because you're denying the reality.

'Balanced debate' on this subject is a sick joke. And I agree it has no place on the main board either.

NAE NOOKIE
23-08-2016, 04:45 PM
'No one is discussing the surrounding multinational threat to Israel'???

This is a distortion of the facts. The supposed 'threat' to Israel is discussed ad nauseum on the main stream media, because it is the western position. Israel in fact is armed to the teeth with military hardware that could destroy its neighbours many times over, and is the only one of its neighbours to have nuclear weapons. How often do you hear about Israels military might in this context? How often do you hear about Irans nuclear weapons program, despite the fact it hasn't actually been proven to exist yet? I bet there is ten times the coverage of one over the other. And what is this massive US supplied military deployed against? Teenagers with stones sick to death living under apartheid conditions.

You clearly are supporting the Israeli position, whether you acknowledge it or not, because you're denying the reality.

'Balanced debate' on this subject is a sick joke. And I agree it has no place on the main board either.

Its not hard to see why the Israelis got nuked up as soon as they could ...... it is a reality for that state ( no matter what your opinion of it ) that it is surrounded by countries that want to see it wiped from the face of the earth, in fact is it not the case that Iran has stated that publicly? The Israelis are so paranoid about Iran developing nukes that in the past the have unilaterally bombed potential nuclear plants before they could be completed.

There isn't much argument to be had against the fact that Israel has used its military might as a tool of oppression in a totally inappropriate way at times, but on the other hand only a fool would make an argument against the fact that of all the nations on earth Israel most of all has to show that the consequences of trying to destroy it would be unthinkable ..... I don't think for a second that if they felt the threat was real enough they wouldn't use nuclear weapons.

That's not supporting any position, that's just the reality as the Israelis see it .... FWIW I also think its time this thread was moved to the ( ironically ) Holy ground.

Hibernia&Alba
23-08-2016, 04:56 PM
1- The assertion that Israel is surrounded by countries that seek its destruction. Bear in mind the Arab League has supported a two state solution since 1988; it's Israel and the USA (almost alone in the world) who, in the UN, vote against what is the overwhelming international consensus for a peace agreement. Even if it were true that surrounding countries wanted to destroy Israel, how does an illegal occupation prevent that happening?

2 - Palestinian atrocities. Suicide bombings are terrorism and are totally unacceptable. Very few people would dispute that. But let's not pretend that violence has been perpetrated equally by both sides in the history of this tragic conflict. As for 'rockets', I think that word leads most people to think of jet propelled state of the art weaponry, with guidance systems and great destructive capabilities. Palestinians don't have access to anything like that, even if they wanted them, because of the blockade. The UN describes the 'rockets' as 'home made pipe bombs'. Now, they shouldn't be fired at all into civilian towns, I totally agree; but the damage they can do against a nuclear power that has one of the largest armies in the world is tiny. They don't represent a military threat in any sense. It's a gesture which says the resistance continues.

We should always discuss blame on both sides, but that doesn't mean we always have to blame each side in a conflict equally, regardless of the record. We have to be proportional, in order to reflect events accurately.

Hibernian Verse
23-08-2016, 05:05 PM
Not every Israeli supports their governments actions.
Did I say he did?

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Hibernia&Alba
23-08-2016, 05:41 PM
I wonder whether Celtc fans will get a hostile reception in Israel tonight?

NAE NOOKIE
23-08-2016, 05:59 PM
1- The assertion that Israel is surrounded by countries that seek its destruction. Bear in mind the Arab League has supported a two state solution since 1988; it's Israel and the USA (almost alone in the world) who, in the UN, vote against what is the overwhelming international consensus for a peace agreement. Even if it were true that surrounding countries wanted to destroy Israel, how does an illegal occupation prevent that happening?

2 - Palestinian atrocities. Suicide bombings are terrorism and are totally unacceptable. Very few people would dispute that. But let's not pretend that violence has been perpetrated equally by both sides in the history of this tragic conflict. As for 'rockets', I think that word leads most people to think of jet propelled state of the art weaponry, with guidance systems and great destructive capabilities. Palestinians don't have access to anything like that, even if they wanted them, because of the blockade. The UN describes the 'rockets' as 'home made pipe bombs'. Now, they shouldn't be fired at all into civilian towns, I totally agree; but the damage they can do against a nuclear power that has one of the largest armies in the world is tiny. They don't represent a military threat in any sense. It's a gesture which says the resistance continues.

We should always discuss blame on both sides, but that doesn't mean we always have to blame each side in a conflict equally, regardless of the record. We have to be proportional, in order to reflect events accurately.

It doesn't, and I don't think anybody on here has suggested it does .... the only solution to the question of the west bank is for Israel to end its illegal occupation of it now.

Occupying an area of land to create a buffer zone against a threat is not unusual in war and in the aftermath of war ...... the illegal part of that is when you allow your civilian population to occupy that land and build houses and communities on it, the legal immorality of that is clear. Its the ultimate irony that one of the main aims of Nazi Germany was the plan to depopulate massive parts of eastern Europe to make 'Lebensraum' ( living space ) for the Germanic peoples .... an aim which the Nazis failed to achieve, but which Israel has at least in part been able to make happen in the west bank.

CentreLine
23-08-2016, 06:36 PM
'No one is discussing the surrounding multinational threat to Israel'???

This is a distortion of the facts. The supposed 'threat' to Israel is discussed ad nauseum on the main stream media, because it is the western position. Israel in fact is armed to the teeth with military hardware that could destroy its neighbours many times over, and is the only one of its neighbours to have nuclear weapons. How often do you hear about Israels military might in this context? How often do you hear about Irans nuclear weapons program, despite the fact it hasn't actually been proven to exist yet? I bet there is ten times the coverage of one over the other. And what is this massive US supplied military deployed against? Teenagers with stones sick to death living under apartheid conditions.

You clearly are supporting the Israeli position, whether you acknowledge it or not, because you're denying the reality.

'Balanced debate' on this subject is a sick joke. And I agree it has no place on the main board either.


Your serious? Right?

You are now putting words in my mouth as well as telling me what I should think it is time for me to leave this one sided debate to those that occupy that one side

DaveF
23-08-2016, 06:38 PM
I wonder whether Celtc fans will get a hostile reception in Israel tonight?

I wonder if we'll see a bundle of Palestinian flags tonight from the worlds greatest fans.

Scott Allan Key
23-08-2016, 07:44 PM
Its not hard to see why the Israelis got nuked up as soon as they could ...... it is a reality for that state ( no matter what your opinion of it ) that it is surrounded by countries that want to see it wiped from the face of the earth, in fact is it not the case that Iran has stated that publicly? The Israelis are so paranoid about Iran developing nukes that in the past the have unilaterally bombed potential nuclear plants before they could be completed.

There isn't much argument to be had against the fact that Israel has used its military might as a tool of oppression in a totally inappropriate way at times, but on the other hand only a fool would make an argument against the fact that of all the nations on earth Israel most of all has to show that the consequences of trying to destroy it would be unthinkable ..... I don't think for a second that if they felt the threat was real enough they wouldn't use nuclear weapons.

That's not supporting any position, that's just the reality as the Israelis see it .... FWIW I also think its time this thread was moved to the ( ironically ) Holy ground.

No, 'Iran' did not say that. Their elected president Ahmedinajad actually quoted the former supreme leader of their country, Imam Khomeini. From Farsi to English, Ahmedinajad said "Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise”.

So a deliberate mistranslation in US media to provoke and justify war against Iran, when the two users of the statement were talking of political regime change of an illegal occupier. The word 'map', 'wipe' were never used. Fantastic propaganda to achieve a goal and there is not an inference of Israel as a people or land.

I can't believe I'm defending the troll Ahmedinajad. It's worth noting too, that Israeli ministers acknowledged Ahmedinajad never said that. But the media served their purpose.

Kato
23-08-2016, 08:35 PM
Did I say he did?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk


I don't know.

Sir David Gray
23-08-2016, 10:02 PM
Your serious? Right?

You are now putting words in my mouth as well as telling me what I should think it is time for me to leave this one sided debate to those that occupy that one side

I did warn you.

jacomo
23-08-2016, 10:47 PM
No, 'Iran' did not say that. Their elected president Ahmedinajad actually quoted the former supreme leader of their country, Imam Khomeini. From Farsi to English, Ahmedinajad said "Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time. This statement is very wise”.

So a deliberate mistranslation in US media to provoke and justify war against Iran, when the two users of the statement were talking of political regime change of an illegal occupier. The word 'map', 'wipe' were never used. Fantastic propaganda to achieve a goal and there is not an inference of Israel as a people or land.

I can't believe I'm defending the troll Ahmedinajad. It's worth noting too, that Israeli ministers acknowledged Ahmedinajad never said that. But the media served their purpose.

Interesting stuff.

It depresses me how much we are all manipulated by the power plays of the rulers.