Formation (again)

[Diclonius]

Lennon was shown that the 3-5-2 setup doesn't work against smaller teams with those players. Yet again we struggled relying on our full backs for width and Dunfermline had loads of space in the middle of the park.

The second he put on McGeouch and we went to a flat back 4 we scored and were comfortable for the rest of the game.

It's not rocket science. Ditch that stupid formation.

[ggth]

Lennon was shown that the 3-5-2 setup doesn't work against smaller teams with those players. Yet again we struggled relying on our full backs for width and Dunfermline had loads of space in the middle of the park.

The second he put on McGeouch and we went to a flat back 4 we scored and were comfortable for the rest of the game.

It's not rocket science. Ditch that stupid formation.

it works if you have decent wingers.

[hibsdaft]

Yep. Stevenson and Gray are full backs not wingers or wing backs.

And playing Bartley plus three centre halts is overkill. Especially when we're playing at home.

[bigwheel]

it works if you have decent wingers.

The formation we use doesn't involve wingers.....wing backs..quite a different position and skill set....

In fact the amount of teams these days that use wingers are few and far between....


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[ancient hibee]

Gray and Stevenson will be going just as hard at the end of 90 minutes as at the start but they're just not quick enough.The use of the ball from out wide was abysmal.There were two decent cross s from Keatings when he drifted out but that was all.The failure to convert any of the excellent corners he put in was path tic.

[Diclonius]

it works if you have decent wingers.

We don't, and our full backs cannot be relied on for width. They're full backs.

We should either sign some actual wingers (or play Boyle) or play the diamond. Three centre backs and Bartley, what is that all about?

[Baw187]

Gray and Stevenson will be going just as hard at the end of 90 minutes as at the start but they're just not quick enough.The use of the ball from out wide was abysmal.There were two decent cross s from Keatings when he drifted out but that was all.The failure to convert any of the excellent corners he put in was path tic.

It's asking too much of Gray and Stevenson to play 3-5-2 IMHO. They are (and the team are) much better at playing 4 at the back. Whether that's a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 doesn't really matter to me.


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[ancient hibee]

Having 3 CBs today added to the confusion and when it mattered none of them was marking Reilly.

[Heisenberg]

You've got to hope he's learned his lesson now. Play something with actual wide players in position and let the defence defend properly.

[Smartie]

it works if you have decent wingers.

Boyle came on and changed the game.

He's made an impact virtually every time he's been selected.

I can't understand why he's been constantly overlooked, by Stubbs and now Lennon when he appears to be exactly the type of player that we are constantly crying out for.

Carmichael played left wing once last season from the start - made a telling contribution.

I'm sick of us talking players down who have done fine for us when asked and must be champing at the bit for an opportunity to show what they can do.

[coco22]

Thought the 3 centre backs played well, Hanlon in particular, except when they were ridiculously far apart for the goal - Dunfermline strolled through the channel. Thought Gray did better than Stevenson and a more creative player than Bartley required. Big difference when McGeouch came on and 442

[Smartie]

Thought the 3 centre backs played well, Hanlon in particular, except when they were ridiculously far apart for the goal - Dunfermline strolled through the channel. Thought Gray did better than Stevenson and a more creative player than Bartley required. Big difference when McGeouch came on and 442

The centre-backs were generally ok but they were posted missing for the goal and had a really ropey spell for 20 minutes or so at the start of the second half (as did the entire team).

There was a passage of play where they were calamitously bad - all of them - and had we lost a goal during that spell, it would have been the worst goal I'd have ever seen us lose.

We need to pull our socks up all over the park, every department needs to improve markedly. We got away with it today but imo the centre-backs need to buck their ideas up as much as anyone else.

[MWHIBBIES]

Plenty of examples of big teams using 3-5-2 against smaller teams and doing just fine. We executed it badly in the last 2 games, the formation isn't stupid.

[Real Emerald]

Plenty of examples of big teams using 3-5-2 against smaller teams and doing just fine. We executed it badly in the last 2 games, the formation isn't stupid.

Agree. I love the 3-5-2 formation but we don't have the players for it in an attacking sense. It worked for us last year against The Rangers who were pressing us but it doesn't work when we're the pressing teams with the players we have available at the moment. We got 3 points so it did work today in that sense but that doesn't tell the whole story.

[lucky]

If he's going to play 3-5-2 we need more from our wing backs. Both struggled today. I would try Keatings on the left Boyle on the right. I'd also bring McGeough in for Bartley. It's a more attacking team to go with at home.

[MWHIBBIES]

Agree. I love the 3-5-2 formation but we don't have the players for it in an attacking sense. It worked for us last year against The Rangers who were pressing us but it doesn't work when we're the pressing teams with the players we have available at the moment. We got 3 points so it did work today in that sense but that doesn't tell the whole story.Yep. I actually think 3-5-2 could work just fine in games like today but there has to be 3 in the middle, McGinn and Bartley are an awful partnership.

[Scouse Hibee]

Lennon got it massively wrong again today, why it took him so long to change is beyond me. Yes we won with a massive stroke of luck,not good enough and he needs to get it right soon. The midfield was crying out for another player from the kick off.

[Real Emerald]

Yep. I actually think 3-5-2 could work just fine in games like today but there has to be 3 in the middle, McGinn and Bartley are an awful partnership.

Like Tuesday there was no balance about it. We end up with two deep midfeilders, McGinn one of the best in Scotland at going forward being exposed beside a defensive midfielder. Nothing about it looks right and bar the excuse of available options this really worries me. Lennon said McGinn had a great game and drove the team forward from the first to the last minute. I don't disagree he had a good game but I'm concerned he thinks this formation with McGinn exposed in there is anything other than a stop gap until injuries clear up and new signings appear.

[Thecat23]

Hibs went to a 4-4-2 and went with the diamond, we were much better and looked comfortable as well. This after DM came on. For me we should be 4-4-2 every week.

[Onion]

Lennon got it massively wrong again today, why it took him so long to change is beyond me. Yes we won with a massive stroke of luck,not good enough and he needs to get it right soon. The midfield was crying out for another player from the kick off.

:top marks Everyone around us were saying the same thing. It's worrying that Lennon thought things were ok at 1-0 when it was clear we needed an extra man in midfield. Up until 65 mins, it was a mirror of QOS.

Hope Lennon is manager everyone thinks he is, otherwise we're in deep.

[Scooter]

Hibs went to a 4-4-2 and went with the diamond, we were much better and looked comfortable as well. This after DM came on. For me we should be 4-4-2 every week.
While I agree with you. If hibs had taken half the chance they had today. This thread would never had been started

[Real Emerald]

Hibs went to a 4-4-2 and went with the diamond, we were much better and looked comfortable as well. This after DM came on. For me we should be 4-4-2 every week.

In this league we should be better than most going 4-4-2. 3-5-2 invites teams to break on us down the flanks with our full backs high up the park, as proven on Tuesday.

[Bishop Hibee]

Gray looked far more comfortable when we went 442 and actually got forward more! We won because we got a cross in from the byeline and the defender couldn't deal with it, not through luck.

[Real Emerald]

While I agree with you. If hibs had taken half the chance they had today. This thread would never had been started

Neither would the same threads on Tuesday. Battering teams and not taking our chances is killing us, we'd be in the top league by now if we had, unfortunately.

[Borderhibbie76]

Thought the 3 centre backs played well, Hanlon in particular, except when they were ridiculously far apart for the goal - Dunfermline strolled through the channel. Thought Gray did better than Stevenson and a more creative player than Bartley required. Big difference when McGeouch came on and 442
Opinions ah I thought Hanlon was dreadful today his worst game in a long time...and I'm and massive Hanlon fan. Even his distribution was poor today

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[Borderhibbie76]

:top marks Everyone around us were saying the same thing. It's worrying that Lennon thought things were ok at 1-0 when it was clear we needed an extra man in midfield. Up until 65 mins, it was a mirror of QOS.

Hope Lennon is manager everyone thinks he is, otherwise we're in deep.
I'm deffo concerned about him thinking the last 2 performances are OK coz they are not. Was shocked he started the same team and formation as Tuesday today - Bartley and 3 centre halves is just crazy man - he better get this sorted out asap

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[Smartie]

Gray looked far more comfortable when we went 442 and actually got forward more! We won because we got a cross in from the byeline and the defender couldn't deal with it, not through luck.

A very fair point.

The more we hit the byline and hit dangerous balls into the 6 yard box, the luckier I would imagine we will get.

[coco22]

Opinions ah I thought Hanlon was dreadful today his worst game in a long time...and I'm and massive Hanlon fan. Even his distribution was poor today

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Fair doos! Thought he was decent in the air, we lost few balls that were pumped forward. Dont recall him giving the ball away regularly.

[Borderhibbie76]

Fair doos! Thought he was decent in the air, we lost few balls that were pumped forward. Dont recall him giving the ball away regularly.
He just looked a bit cumbersome at times and was affected by the jitters too after the dunfy goal - I'm used to him always being so composed and in control. Tbh he rarely has a bad game and sets high standards

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[Franck Stanton]

He only got to the bye line thanks to a great through ball from McGeoch. We were in identical positions a few times second half and the final ball through was abysmal, in fact there was one from Bartley that was just a pass to the full back. Take McGeoch and Henderson out of our midfield and we are very ordinary.

[coco22]

He just looked a bit cumbersome at times and was affected by the jitters too after the dunfy goal - I'm used to him always being so composed and in control. Tbh he rarely has a bad game and sets high standards

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Thought the passing along the back line was too slow and, at times, pointless today. Anyway, a win is what was required and am sure PH will go on to have another successful season

[Borderhibbie76]

Thought the passing along the back line was too slow and, at times, pointless today. Anyway, a win is what was required and am sure PH will go on to have another successful season
Absolutely mate

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[J-C]

The formation isn't wrong it's the players in it that are. Stevenson and Gray are not wingbacks and as good Keatings can be at times, he gets caught our upfield when he should be helping the other 2 in there. 3 CH and Barley against 1 forward is a joke, I know we have injuries to 2 key midfielders and it's hurting us, see the difference when Dylan came on.

4-3-3 is the way forward, played with pace and urgency, like Boyle and Dylan did when they came on.McGinn did a power of work, doing the job of 2 men at times, we better watch or we'Lloyd burn the lad out again.

[bookert]

Thought the 3 centre backs played well, Hanlon in particular, except when they were ridiculously far apart for the goal - Dunfermline strolled through the channel. Thought Gray did better than Stevenson and a more creative player than Bartley required. Big difference when McGeouch came on and 442 yes cause there is nobody in mid, qos scored a similar goal on Tuesday.

[edwards]

We missed McGeogh and Fyvie in midfield and McGeogh made the difference when he came on. Boyle gave us pace up front and gave the Dunfermline defence more problems.
I know I will get shot down but feel we need to look a stronger left back who can cross a better ball as well we need to move forward

[Eyrie]

It looked like a 3-4-1-2 today, and it clearly wasn't working. Slightly disappointed that it took Lennon so long to accept that and make the change by putting McGeouch on.

We have two very good full backs who can't play wing back. Not only do they lack the necessary attacking skills, but it slows the game down as we wait for them to get up the park and we're then left vulnerable as we have no width in our defence.

Bartley struggled as part of a midfield two because he isn't comfortable getting forward or making anything other than a simple pass. In front of him Keatings was anonymous as he neither dropped back enough to help our two midfielders nor assisted our strikers. On the rare occasions he did get into their box, he was ignored by Cummings who chose to shoot despite Keatings being in a better position.

I'd go with 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 to get the best out of our squad rather than settle on a formation and try to bash square pegs into round holes.

[Smartie]

It looked like a 3-4-1-2 today, and it clearly wasn't working. Slightly disappointed that it took Lennon so long to accept that and make the change by putting McGeouch on.

We have two very good full backs who can't play wing back. Not only do they lack the necessary attacking skills, but it slows the game down as we wait for them to get up the park and we're then left vulnerable as we have no width in our defence.

Bartley struggled as part of a midfield two because he isn't comfortable getting forward or making anything other than a simple pass. In front of him Keatings was anonymous as he neither dropped back enough to help our two midfielders nor assisted our strikers. On the rare occasions he did get into their box, he was ignored by Cummings who chose to shoot despite Keatings being in a better position.

I'd go with 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 to get the best out of our squad rather than settle on a formation and try to bash square pegs into round holes.

I agree about the 4-4-2 or 4-3-3.

But I do think that Lennon is still finding out about our squad.

There was only so much he could learn from the European games and the friendlies and will possibly learn by his mistakes to an extent at the start of the season.

He still has a few weeks to make additions to the squad.

And when all is said and done, the league is top priority this season and we've taken full points from our first two games.

Stubbs had the team playing a different way in his first month or two to the way he generally had the team playing after that (remember Kennedy on the wing etc).

Boyle's impressive cameo will surely have given Lennon something to think about today.

Lennon's biggest challenge will be to decide who to drop out of Keatings (playing well), Cummings (scoring goals) and Holt (different type of player, noises up defenders and Lennon's main signing so far) to get the players to fit a more effective formation.

[greenlex]

Yet again we could have been 2 or 3 up at half time. Wont matter what combination of players or formation you play if you dont take your chances you might end up against it. Having said that I thought Lennion was too slow making the changes that the game was screaming out for that eventually bagged us the three points. McGeouch must start if fit.

[Thecat23]

While I agree with you. If hibs had taken half the chance they had today. This thread would never had been started

Very true. Should have been out of sight!

[Real Emerald]

Yet again we could have been 2 or 3 up at half time. Wont matter what combination of players or formation you play if you dont take your chances you might end up against it. Having said that I thought Lennion was too slow making the changes that the game was screaming out for that eventually bagged us the three points. McGeouch must start if fit.

The formation does matter if you're getting caught on the break when one nil up though. We need players in a position to cover and defend these situations. if you're 4 goals up however, you can afford to ship the odd goal now and then as you say.

My concern is that Lennon isn't seeing this and making the changes when it becomes a bit obvious. To me that's a HUGE worry, we need a manager who can react to a situation that was really quite obvious to everyone watching in the last two games.

[RedHibby]

Very true. Should have been out of sight!

How many times should we have been out of sight last season? I know its a new manager with different ideas but it becomes a bit worrying when he does not know the best formation for the players he has at his disposal.

[Eyrie]

Is Lennon a new manager with new ideas, or just a new manager with his own ideas?

The personnel are largely unchanged from last season, so what makes him think that Gray and Stevenson can suddenly become attacking threats at wing back, or that Keatings can play behind the strikers?

I can understand starting Bartley today given the absence of Fyvie and McGeouch, but will be watching closely to see if Lennon realises that he can't play in a midfield two.

As I said in another thread, we should have dropped a CH to start Martin in a midfield three and had Keatings and Cummings on either side of Holt.

[Wee Effen Bee]

I'm deffo concerned about him thinking the last 2 performances are OK coz they are not. Was shocked he started the same team and formation as Tuesday today - Bartley and 3 centre halves is just crazy man - he better get this sorted out asap

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Do you realise how arrogant this sounds?
As I have suggested to others recently, you should call him up and point out his obvious weaknesses and failings to him directly. I'm sure he will immediately dispense with all his footballing ideas/philosophies/experiences gained over the years on team formation, experimentation and tactics... and follow your advice to the nth degree:aok:

[JOD]

Lennon was shown that the 3-5-2 setup doesn't work against smaller teams with those players. Yet again we struggled relying on our full backs for width and Dunfermline had loads of space in the middle of the park.

The second he put on McGeouch and we went to a flat back 4 we scored and were comfortable for the rest of the game.

It's not rocket science. Ditch that stupid formation.

What a lot of pish. We won the cup with that formation. In Neil I trust

[JohnM1875]

What a lot of pish. We won the cup with that formation. In Neil I trust

Like it or not The Rangers aren't really a smaller team like Dunfermline are. And I totally agree we don't need to be playing a 3-5-2 against those teams. Especially at home when we need to get at teams.

Personally I thought the whole team looked more comfortable playing 4-4-2 and McGeouch and Boyle changed the game.

[Borderhibbie76]

Do you realise how arrogant this sounds?
As I have suggested to others recently, you should call him up and point out his obvious weaknesses and failings to him directly. I'm sure he will immediately dispense with all his footballing ideas/philosophies/experiences gained over the years on team formation, experimentation and tactics... and follow your advice to the nth degree:aok:
I never meant to come across as arrogant but to start a team and formation that performed so worryingly bad on Tuesday night is a concern isn't not?? Yes we won and I was delighted but we got lucky and need to improve. It was night and day when Mcgeouch and Boyle came on and we switched to 442 would you not agree??? Credit to lennon for switching but why did it take so long???

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[Brightside]

Lennon was shown that the 3-5-2 setup doesn't work against smaller teams with those players. Yet again we struggled relying on our full backs for width and Dunfermline had loads of space in the middle of the park.

The second he put on McGeouch and we went to a flat back 4 we scored and were comfortable for the rest of the game.

It's not rocket science. Ditch that stupid formation.

It was 343 again! And its a fine system if we don't have to play Bartley in it!

[J-C]

What a lot of pish. We won the cup with that formation. In Neil I trust

While you are factually right and we did win the cup with this formation, you seem to have forgotten that we had a different team playing that day against Rangers, we started with Fyvie/McGinn/McGeouch as the 3 midfielders and Stokes for Holt.

A totally different dimension to the cup team compared to the team that started yesterday, plus we were playing a different team altogether, Dunfermline play 1 up top and Rangers played with a 3 man attack.

4-4-2/4-3-3 is what we should've started yesterday, it still looks like Lennon is looking at his players and undecided on his best team, trying to fit everyone in with a system that does that, instead of picking a system he played in pre season ( 4-3-3 ) that worked well.

[Scouse Hibee]

What a lot of pish. We won the cup with that formation. In Neil I trust

Different players, different dynamics and we were pumped out of the league cup this week with the same formation and players.

[GreenOnions]

A lot of fair points made here. What I like though is that Lennon's approach has got us six points from our first two league games.

He has done this while Fyvie and McGeouch are out injured, having also lost Stokes and Henderson from last year's side and before he's been able to add much to the squad.

We lacked a bit of creativity and invention yesterday. However that's the part of our squad that is "light" due to departures and injuries. We had six defenders (if you include Bartley) amongst our ten starting outfield players. Too many I'd argue - but I don't think Lennon will continue like that once he has assembled the squad he wants.

If NL can get us on a run of wins early in the season that is the most crucial thing - no matter how it's achieved.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Situations can be over thought though. Look at our failings yesterday. We looked on the ropes after they scored. How many times are you told at school level football to keep it together after you have scored or conceded. Dylan comes on then we have a midfielder playing with his head up who can pick a pass. Boyle comes on and has a bit of pace about him. Concentration, passing and pace. Each of them are clichés but they all apply.

[biotech]

Boyle seems best as an impact player against a tiring defence.I'm not sure he's as effective over 90 minutes. Subsequently, changing the formation later in the game benefits him. Hopefully, Lennon recognises this.

[JDHibs]

Playing 3 centre backs and Bartley against anyone in this league is over kill.

We only need Bartley when we are holding a lead or the back 4 need protection. Not when we are going to dominate a game as he offers NOTHING going forward.

3-5-2 would work if we had actual wing backs. Not full backs. Gray and Stevenson are good full backs but arent quick enough for wing backs. Plus the fact only 4/10 crosses are "decent" from both.

We looked much better with a flat back 4. Mcginn, mcgeough, fyvie and boyle should be our starting midfield.

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[fulshie]

Looks like most supporters are in agreement that the 3 5 2 formation didn't work yesterday. I'm not too sure about the Holt Cummings partnership either. IMO Holt should have been taken off a lot earlier. Maybe a change in formation would help Holt. We'll have to wait and see.

[J-C]

Playing 3 centre backs and Bartley against anyone in this league is over kill.

We only need Bartley when we are holding a lead or the back 4 need protection. Not when we are going to dominate a game as he offers NOTHING going forward.

3-5-2 would work if we had actual wing backs. Not full backs. Gray and Stevenson are good full backs but arent quick enough for wing backs. Plus the fact only 4/10 crosses are "decent" from both.

We looked much better with a flat back 4. Mcginn, mcgeough, fyvie and boyle should be our starting midfield.

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:agree: