The" state" of Scottish Football

[swordin3]

Being a Hibby things are looking up at the moment but as a whole people ask the question why are we struggling to produce international quality players. Pretty simple 40 years ago kids were out on the pitches ,car parks ,Fields, school grounds playing football honing there skills. Playing till dusk
5 hours a day down the parks .
Now a days they are on the computer, i-pad or watching love island.
As a coach I know the SFA say it takes 10,000 hours to perfect a single skill so there are a very small percentage of boys or girls reaching that target even elite players would struggle to meet this quota and they are training 4-5 times a week.
perfect example of my point when I was young you could not find a set of goals on the public parks with any grass on them they were worn out with kids playing on them. Look at any public park , now fully grassed like a bowling green due to lack of use.
Kids learn by playing 2 hours on a Sunday at he local team is not going to produce a Pat Stanton or Kenny Dalglish. Thoughts folks.:confused:

[Hibernia&Alba]

But what about smaller nations such as Iceland and the two Irelands? Smaller populations, same technology but much better progress.

[Scorrie]

I don't buy the "kids on computers" line to be honest. There's computers and iPads all over and yet other countries produce players. Look at Iceland and Wales for example. For me the issue in Scotland is one of dreadful organisation and poor leadership and poor facilities. We have at least four different bodies running senior and junior football. It's Victorian. I actually think we do produce very good players, but do they get a chance at the top level? To be successful I think we need a single governing body running all football with a decent all weather facility in every town ( or even villages). Coupled with decent coaches as well. Then we might have a chance. I won't hold my breath though...

[Northernhibee]

Young footballers need to be taught technical skills, not lumping and chasing at 100mph. We're being left behind.

[Pretty Boy]

Young boys need to play football.

I'm glad we have George Craig on board as he seems to agree. He has long argued our pro youth set up is bloated and a lot of boys would be better off going back into the juvenile ranks and developing there.

[greenlex]

I don't believe the 10'000 hrs thing. Too convenient a number for a start. Chuck in different Kids/athletes learn things at different speeds and will naturally have differing abilities to start with. All of that makes me think it's made up.

[weecounty hibby]

But what about smaller nations such as Iceland and the two Irelands? Smaller populations, same technology but much better progress.

None of them have the Old Firm though. A cancer on sport, football and society in general in Scotland. The media would have us believe that they are a blessing for us in this country but in fact they are the epitome of what is wrong with our game. Sign players from clubs who look like they may put up a challenge and play them in the reserves. Kids who's biggest ambition is to play with one of them in an easy league for relatively big money. Hansen, Souness, Law, Bremner, Jordan, the Grays, Lorimer, Nichol, Dalglish, etc etc all wanted to play at the highest level not at the easiest level for big money.
They also effect other sports. I coach our local rugby teams juniors and have had decent rugby players stop playing because they were Rangers/Celtic fans. Not active match attenders mind but just because their mates were were watching them on the telly, as you can do almost every week, they gave up rugby to watch the telly as well.
Add in the bigotry and violence and yes the OF are a blessing right enough!!!!

[Hillsidehibby]

Why don't we just copy what the others do?

[Alfred E Newman]

Young footballers need to be taught technical skills, not lumping and chasing at 100mph. We're being left behind.

Nobody taught us technical skills in the school playground. Some were hopeless like me and some better than others and it was obvious who had natural talent and was going to go on and play the game at a decent level.
You just don't see kids playing football now other than at local boys club training at the weekend.
I suppose footballs are not allowed in the playground at most schools now, after all somebody could get their eye knocked out.

[PeeKay]

But what about smaller nations such as Iceland and the two Irelands? Smaller populations, same technology but much better progress.

Iceland have 848 UEFA licenced coaches for a total population of 329,000. That's one for every 389 citizens and if you take it that a number of Icelanders will be past it, the ratio per active footballer gets even better. Don't know what the ratio is here in Scotland, but you can bet that it will be nowhere near that - and our kids are lucky if their coaches are SFA licenced never mind to UEFA standard.
While the SFA have set up enquiries and endless committees to tackle the problems at grass roots, the Icelanders have actually DONE something tangible about it. Until we get some people with vision at the top of the SFA I can't see things getting better anytime soon.

[weecounty hibby]

I don't believe the 10'000 hrs thing. Too convenient a number for a start. Chuck in different Kids/athletes learn things at different speeds and will naturally have differing abilities to start with. All of that makes me think it's made up.
The 10,000 hours is proven fact. Top level elite athletes, whatever the sport, will take that amount of training to get there.

[swordin3]

I don't buy the "kids on computers" line to be honest. There's computers and iPads all over and yet other countries produce players. Look at Iceland and Wales for example. For me the issue in Scotland is one of dreadful organisation and poor leadership and poor facilities. We have at least four different bodies running senior and junior football. It's Victorian. I actually think we do produce very good players, but do they get a chance at the top level? To be successful I think we need a single governing body running all football with a decent all weather facility in every town ( or even villages). Coupled with decent coaches as well. Then we might have a chance. I won't hold my breath though...

Just asking the question, you make some excellent points as regards the Scottish systems the politics and no real plan at the top. We need an actual plan, strategy a system where the talent is identified , nurtured and brought to a high level of skill ,understanding and quality.:confused:

[greenlex]

The 10,000 hours is proven fact. Top level elite athletes, whatever the sport, will take that amount of training to get there.

How do you prove that? I know it takes a long time to perfect anything but to put a number(as convenient as that especially )on it IMO is bull****. its impossible. Not everyone starts at the same level.

[Ozyhibby]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-record-fc-cant-scottish-8472656

All the answers are here. [emoji23]


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[swordin3]

Iceland have 848 UEFA licenced coaches for a total population of 329,000. That's one for every 389 citizens and if you take it that a number of Icelanders will be past it, the ratio per active footballer gets even better. Don't know what the ratio is here in Scotland, but you can bet that it will be nowhere near that - and our kids are lucky if their coaches are SFA licenced never mind to UEFA standard.
While the SFA have set up enquiries and endless committees to tackle the problems at grass roots, the Icelanders have actually DONE something tangible about it. Until we get some people with vision at the top of the SFA I can't see things getting better anytime soon.

I agree Kids need to be coached by qualified people unfortunately I have seen people with badges who couldn't coach a puppy out of a kennel. We need the right people coaching not robots with qualifications.I know of a few Coaches at juvenile clubs who have hardly played the game who couldn,t trap a bag of cement but are in charge of under 12 teams a really important age in the development of a player.:confused:

[Pretty Boy]

How do you prove that? I know it takes a long time to perfect anything but to put a number(as convenient as that especially )on it IMO is bull****. its impossible. Not everyone starts at the same level.

I actually think that the '10 000 hours' type thinking is what's holding us back to an extent. It's too prescriptive.

We need to accept that some people are just more talented than others. Take the best into the academies or whatever, let the rest find their level and watch out for the late developers.

Whislt there has to be an enphasis on technical ability and physical development I always feels that in this country that is often at the expense of individuals expressing themselves as players.

[Pretty Boy]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-record-fc-cant-scottish-8472656

All the answers are here. [emoji23]


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Why is there a random picture of Neil Lennon dropped in that piece?

[swordin3]

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-record-fc-cant-scottish-8472656

All the answers are here. [emoji23]


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Stop it mate my sides are killing me :not worth Yeah when the Gers enter the pitch its like Barcelona and Real rolled into one.:top marks

[Chip shop Joe]

The 10,000 hours thing is from a book called Bounce by Matthew Syed. It is a very interesting read and basically states that almost anyone can be an expert in anything if they practice for 10,000 hours.

He talks about various top level athletes and musicians. I was a bit sceptical but when you read about how his STREET produced something like 3 of the top ten (paraphrasing a bit as I cannae mind exactly) of England's top table tennis players due to the 24hr availability of a table and a good coach it is mighty interesting (if you like that kind of thing).

would definitely recommend the book though.

[weecounty hibby]

No one is saying that you MUST have done 10,000 hours but of a kid starts playing a sport at say age 12, he will have done this and more by the time he is 20 if he is good enough to be taken to elite level training. It is a fact and I have seen how it works in practice and how elite performers at an early age can be fast tracked into top level sport by being identified early and given specific targeted training. This also relies on having the required resources in highly skilled, competent coaches. Something we lack in Scotland. I don't mean the dad's who give up their time a couple of nights per week but coaches who have had proper training and understand the sport, sport science, sport psychology and also the different styles of coaching and learning. And I mean no offence to volunteer dad's and mums as they are invaluable also. Just not as coaches.
My son plays rugby and football. At rugby he is coached by two coaches for his age level who are both UKCC level 2 accredited. At the football he is coached by two coaches who seem to know what they are doing but also by another half dozen dads from the touch line who can't help but shout "encouragement" but mostly talk *****. The Iceland example given above regarding coaches and their set up is a brilliant one. The only problem we have trying to copy them in this country is too many people looking after their own self interests

[mjhibby]

Young footballers need to be taught technical skills, not lumping and chasing at 100mph. We're being left behind.

Too many coaches only interested in medals. I don't know how low we have to go till there is change but if we don't do it soon we could well lose a generation of fans.

[Chip shop Joe]

No one is saying that you MUST have done 10,000 hours but of a kid starts playing a sport at say age 12, he will have done this and more by the time he is 20 if he is good enough to be taken to elite level training. It is a fact and I have seen how it works in practice and how elite performers at an early age can be fast tracked into top level sport by being identified early and given specific targeted training. This also relies on having the required resources in highly skilled, competent coaches. Something we lack in Scotland. I don't mean the dad's who give up their time a couple of nights per week but coaches who have had proper training and understand the sport, sport science, sport psychology and also the different styles of coaching and learning. And I mean no offence to volunteer dad's and mums as they are invaluable also. Just not as coaches.
My son plays rugby and football. At rugby he is coached by two coaches for his age level who are both UKCC level 2 accredited. At the football he is coached by two coaches who seem to know what they are doing but also by another half dozen dads from the touch line who can't help but shout "encouragement" but mostly talk *****. The Iceland example given above regarding coaches and their set up is a brilliant one. The only problem we have trying to copy them in this country is too many people looking after their own self interests

Yeah this is pretty much what Syed says. The thing is though 10,000 hours is a hell of a lot by my fag packet maths would take about 7 years practicing for 4 hours every single day so I think you would really need to start well before 12 to get there in early teens/20s. He uses Tiger Woods as an example of why he was so good so young. Because he started playing when he was about 18months old!!

[Hibby Bairn]

At the Hampden gig 18 months or so ago where Barry Hearn was spouting off, a case study of Uruguay was given. Smaller population but produces a high ratio of world class players. It was recommended that a Scottish delegation go there to learn how they do it.

Haven't heard anything since. Regan was in the room.

[lord bunberry]

Young boys need to play football.

I'm glad we have George Craig on board as he seems to agree. He has long argued our pro youth set up is bloated and a lot of boys would be better off going back into the juvenile ranks and developing there.
What I don't understand is why we don't have a Hibernian boys club. We should bring the whole operation in house. We're currently losing the best of the young generation to Celtic and hearts from right under our nose from teams like leith athletic. That can't be right.

[Canon Hannan]

Having experienced French, Italian, Spanish, English and Scottish football it is very clear to me:
Coaching style
Appreciation of skill
Keepers training with players
Facilities
Weather
Technical training

We have the players.

[Keyser Sauzee]

Malcolm Gladwell also speaks a lot about the 10,000 hour rule in his book "Outliers" and if you read it it makes a lot of sense. I don't think its the only way we will start to produce good young players again but its a start as something needs to be done about our game as its failing badly.

[Lancs Harp]

So where should Scottish football stand?

Is there any real reason why Scotland cant do what N. Ireland or Wales have just done in the Euros? You could argue Wales have a superstar Scotland don't have in Bale but N. Ireland certainly don't have.

Are Scotland moving in the right direction under Strachan? If so are they moving fast enough if you look to Wales and N Ireland?

OK I'm English but I'm a Hibs fan so have massive interest in Scottish football as result. Will Scotland rise again? I think fundamental changes are needed in the Scottish game but most of those changes are financial and thats the problem. Celtic and Rangers are the both the weakness and strength of Scottish domestic football but it has been like that for a long long time.

Back in "my day" the top English sides were packed with great Scottish players. Now they aren't and Scottish football has declined. These days EPL teams are packed with "foreigners" and the English national team is in decline too.

The answer? I wish I knew.

[LustForLeith]

I don't get this 'Iceland should have been poor because they had a small population' stuff that gets banded about. How many World Cup have China won?

Iceland did well in the Euros down to having a great team spirit and work ethos and the fact they had nothing to lose, everyone expected them to get beat. And they had the good fortune of coming up against England.

What I really want for Scotland to do (and it's unlikely to happen after Cameron House) is instead of playing pointless friendly internationals is to take the players away for the weekend. Let them bond, play golf, have a BBQ, get to know each other better and get Strachan and his back room staff have team talks in a relaxed environment.

You'd be more likely to get players released from clubs for stuff like this instead of international friendlies as clubs would know there would be little chance of a player getting injured.

Might be a short term solution to Scotland's national team problems.

[Ozyhibby]

The problems in Scotland begin and end with the SFA. There is not a single area they are not failing in. Since Mark Wotte left we have had no communication or guidance at all from the SFA. McClair has been the invisible man for 13 month while collecting his healthy salary.


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[Lancs Harp]

I don't get this 'Iceland should have been poor because they had a small population' stuff that gets banded about. How many World Cup have China won?

Iceland did well in the Euros down to having a great team spirit and work ethos and the fact they had nothing to lose, everyone expected them to get beat. And they had the good fortune of coming up against England.

What I really want for Scotland to do (and it's unlikely to happen after Cameron House) is instead of playing pointless friendly internationals is to take the players away for the weekend. Let them bond, play golf, have a BBQ, get to know each other better and get Strachan and his back room staff have team talks in a relaxed environment.

You'd be more likely to get players released from clubs for stuff like this instead of international friendlies as clubs would know there would be little chance of a player getting injured.

Might be a short term solution to Scotland's national team problems.


Its sustaining it though. Iceland had a whale of a time (pardon the pun), much has been made of their numerous coaches per head of population and how they have organised their game with relatively limited resources but its going to be short lived. Much has been made of this team, quite rightly so, but in a year or two they will return to international obscurity

Why cant Scotland perform like Croatia or Slovenia et al, countries with similar or smaller populations to Scotland and certainly no great TV money in their games.

[swordin3]

In conclusion there is no easy answer apart from proper coaches training the 6 to 11 year olds in the proper technical skills and awareness required. I met a young coach called Ian Cathro several years ago for a job interveiw in a golf club in Glenrothes to help introduce his soccer school to the Edinburgh region. He developed box soccer training a method to train youngsters 7-11 in fundamental skills .I was blown away by his attitude and ideas .He then went on to develop the youths at Dundee Utd and then went abroad to learn his trade .After assisting at a top Spanish club Valencia then last season assistant at Newcastle .
He is the most forward thinking coach in Scotland and" will":thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: manage a premier league club within the next 3-5 years.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Down at Gala Fairydean Rovers there's kids playing on the 3G pitch all the time. Last week we were short of players for a walking football session and roped in some of the 13/14 year olds who were having a kick about ... some of the kids were very good on the ball and weren't short of tricks & flicks. Though the passing game was a bit alien to them it would seem.

Watching those kids I would bet good money they were every bit as good as the kids were when I was that age ..... what happens between that age and 17/18 years old is anybody's guess .. I cant see any reason why they shouldn't be producing good quality professional players.

[Hibby Bairn]

Down at Gala Fairydean Rovers there's kids playing on the 3G pitch all the time. Last week we were short of players for a walking football session and roped in some of the 13/14 year olds who were having a kick about ... some of the kids were very good on the ball and weren't short of tricks & flicks. Though the passing game was a bit alien to them it would seem.

Watching those kids I would bet good money they were every bit as good as the kids were when I was that age ..... what happens between that age and 17/18 years old is anybody's guess .. I cant see any reason why they shouldn't be producing good quality professional players.

I agree with this. I'm not sure what happens post 12/13 yrs old but we seem to lose something. Desire? Coaching? Attitude? Focus on the bigger lads?

Maybe too many missing out in the system but don't actually develop until 15/16/17.

Not sure.

[King conrad]

:agree: totally agree with you,especially the keepers quote.half these keepers in spain could play outfield and the barcelona keeper is the perfect example.
This guy starts attacks pinging the ball 50 yards straight to suarez feet and half the outfield players in scotland cant do it.......and yes we do have the players.
Having experienced French, Italian, Spanish, English and Scottish football it is very clear to me:
Coaching style
Appreciation of skill
Keepers training with players
Facilities
Weather
Technical training

We have the players.

[Forza Fred]

Its sustaining it though. Iceland had a whale of a time (pardon the pun), much has been made of their numerous coaches per head of population and how they have organised their game with relatively limited resources but its going to be short lived. Much has been made of this team, quite rightly so, but in a year or two they will return to international obscurity

Why cant Scotland perform like Croatia or Slovenia et al, countries with similar or smaller populations to Scotland and certainly no great TV money in their games.

Good post.

Croatia have a population smaller than Scotland, yet most of their players are significantly ahead of ours in terms of technical ability.

Someone should pop over from the SFA and check out why, instead of just making assumptions.

[Keith_M]

It's quite common for our youth teams to win competitions abroad against teams from countries that are way more successful at football than Scotland.

How many of these kids then go on to develop careers at a high level is a different matter.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on winning trophies at a young age, instead of the development of skills with a long term view in mind.

[ruthven_raiders]

It's quite common for our youth teams to win competitions abroad against teams from countries that are way more successful at football than Scotland.

How many of these kids then go on to develop careers at a high level is a different matter.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on winning trophies at a young age, instead of the development of skills with a long term view in mind.

Exactly that, too many screaming coaches and parents....and have seen plenty fisty cuffs from grown adults, sp what example does that set! Also I'm on holiday and on our TV barca tv is one of the channels, watching a youth game and my god the skill level and level of awareness for moving into space is light years ahead.

[Pretty Boy]

It's quite common for our youth teams to win competitions abroad against teams from countries that are way more successful at football than Scotland.

How many of these kids then go on to develop careers at a high level is a different matter.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on winning trophies at a young age, instead of the development of skills with a long term view in mind.

It's been said above but something definitely goes wrong from about 15/16 onwards.

I often wonder if too many kids think they have 'made it' by exclusively playing for Hibs, Hearts, Celtic etc at a young age. My Dad signed an old S form with Rangers in his early teens and trained in Glasgow 3 times a week however he still turned out for Hutchie Vale and trained with them as well. It's probably a bit of a dated system now but I think theirs a bit of merit in it; train with your pro team and develop the technicality there whilst playing competitive football at juveniles. Edinburgh has a rich history of clubs who produced professional footballers: Hutchie Vale, Edina Hibs, Tynecastle etc. I suppose the difficulty is that 1 good player can be worth a lot of money and pro clubs may not want to let them out their sight for too long.

[bigwheel]

One thing for me that could be an issue is that very few teenagers get any decent level of first team game time. A few do, but often players get released at 18-20 without really getting a chance. Even if they have done quite well at development team level. Other countries seem to find a way to give youngsters more game time. It's not uncommon to see 20 year olds with 100 first team games...if they don't get a chance, it's hard to know if they can crack it...

[HillaryBriss]

I heard Billy Brown on Radio Scotland yesterday rambling on about how the likes of Walter Smith, Archie Knox and Jim Jefferies, should be getting together to plot Scotland's future course !!!
The idea of these dinosaurs having anything to do with progressing the game is beyond me. Smith was successful due to his over inflated transfer kitty and Jefferies was nothing more than a bully boy. Definitely NOT the way forward !

[J-C]

Scottish football went downhill when the OF starting bringing in foreign players and all the other teams tried to follow suit, instead of the odd quality ones like Sauzee and Latapy, we brought in loads of ***** like Zurabi etc. One or two quality ones to add and pass on knowledge would've been fine but far too many crap Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc have came here and deprived our top youngsters from getting a game.

Look at our history, the 50's and 70's being our most famous eras, not a foreigner in sight all Scottish talent.

[Ozyhibby]

It's quite common for our youth teams to win competitions abroad against teams from countries that are way more successful at football than Scotland.

How many of these kids then go on to develop careers at a high level is a different matter.

Maybe we put too much emphasis on winning trophies at a young age, instead of the development of skills with a long term view in mind.

I coach kids footy and there are no trophies to play for until after they are twelve years old? No scores are ever written down and there are no league tables.
Spain on the other hand have competitive leagues from the age of 8.



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[Ozyhibby]

It's been said above but something definitely goes wrong from about 15/16 onwards.

I often wonder if too many kids think they have 'made it' by exclusively playing for Hibs, Hearts, Celtic etc at a young age. My Dad signed an old S form with Rangers in his early teens and trained in Glasgow 3 times a week however he still turned out for Hutchie Vale and trained with them as well. It's probably a bit of a dated system now but I think theirs a bit of merit in it; train with your pro team and develop the technicality there whilst playing competitive football at juveniles. Edinburgh has a rich history of clubs who produced professional footballers: Hutchie Vale, Edina Hibs, Tynecastle etc. I suppose the difficulty is that 1 good player can be worth a lot of money and pro clubs may not want to let them out their sight for too long.

The pro youth set up is definitely a problem. The team I coach has just lost 5 players to Hibs and Hearts. Given that it's 7-a-side, this is a big loss. Luckily we have a big set up with lots of kids ready to jump in but a smaller club may have folded in such circumstances. This is a team for ten year olds.


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[bigwheel]

I heard Billy Brown on Radio Scotland yesterday rambling on about how the likes of Walter Smith, Archie Knox and Jim Jefferies, should be getting together to plot Scotland's future course !!!
The idea of these dinosaurs having anything to do with progressing the game is beyond me. Smith was successful due to his over inflated transfer kitty and Jefferies was nothing more than a bully boy. Definitely NOT the way forward !


it is no surprise that a dinosaur like Brown will point to these characters. They are exactly what is wrong with Scottish Football. We should go out and get the best in modern day coaches, Ian Cathro et al...not hark back to a by gone era to people who oversaw the decline in Scottish football...

[Baader]

Iceland was no fluke. Their football association invested heavily in developing a clear model, an infrastructure (for eg 3G 'dome' pitches in practically every town) and a high number of qualified coaches. The country don't have one professional club.

The blame for the state of Scottish football lies predominantly with our useless FA.

[bigwheel]

The pro youth set up is definitely a problem. The team I coach has just lost 5 players to Hibs and Hearts. Given that it's 7-a-side, this is a big loss. Luckily we have a big set up with lots of kids ready to jump in but a smaller club may have folded in such circumstances. This is a team for ten year olds.


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Ozy..just to reflect for a while...could that move be the best thing for these young guys development though,`even though it affects your team..??

It is of course dependent on the quality of catching and game time they get

Mind you...when I grew up we played for our schools, club and trained at pro teams...sometimes all on the same day!

[Ozyhibby]

Ozy..just to reflect for a while...could that move be the best thing for these young guys development though,`even though it affects your team..??

It is of course dependent on the quality of catching and game time they get

Mind you...when I grew up we played for our schools, club and trained at pro teams...sometimes all on the same day!

We encouraged the kids to take their chance. I've no problem with it but I would prefer a system where Hibs, Hearts and the SFA helped us become better coaches.
The next step for me to become more qualified will cost £500 and a week off work. Making it easier for our volunteers to gain the coaching skills needed would be a step in the right direction. Again, because we are a big club we have managed to pay for a fully qualified UEFA license holder to come in and coach the kids next season so I'm just the water boy now. [emoji3]


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[bigwheel]

We encouraged the kids to take their chance. I've no problem with it but I would prefer a system where Hibs, Hearts and the SFA helped us become better coaches.
The next step for me to become more qualified will cost £500 and a week off work. Making it easier for our volunteers to gain the coaching skills needed would be a step in the right direction. Again, because we are a big club we have managed to pay for a fully qualified UEFA license holder to come in and coach the kids next season so I'm just the water boy now. [emoji3]


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that is such a key point...there should be much more funding and support for volunteers willing to become coaches..couldn't agree more

[superfurryhibby]

Ozy..just to reflect for a while...could that move be the best thing for these young guys development though,`even though it affects your team..??

It is of course dependent on the quality of catching and game time they get

Mind you...when I grew up we played for our schools, club and trained at pro teams...sometimes all on the same day!

Has pro youth football produced a better standard of player? It seems to me that there is no discernible difference in quality. However, the vast majority of kids involved are sucked up and spat back out again disillusioned by football. That was the experience of my own boy.

Better to have them at a boys club, training weekly at the pro team from 14 onwards and enjoying their regular football in the company of pals.

[northstandhibby]

Scottish football went downhill when the OF starting bringing in foreign players and all the other teams tried to follow suit, instead of the odd quality ones like Sauzee and Latapy, we brought in loads of ***** like Zurabi etc. One or two quality ones to add and pass on knowledge would've been fine but far too many crap Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc have came here and deprived our top youngsters from getting a game.

Look at our history, the 50's and 70's being our most famous eras, not a foreigner in sight all Scottish talent.

Very good points made. The likes of Sauzee and Latapy are players the youngsters would copy their technique, training, diet, etcetera, all the good habits a professional player needs to progress. There was a lot of foreign players who came in who were no better than the journeymen already here.

A good coach for the younger players is also very important one who will work tirelessly on the key elements of the game of which for me the most important is - Passing - probably the most fundamental football required ability. How many times have we seen a player make a stray pass to the opposition which leads to unnecessary pressure put on the team which leads to an opposition attack.

A good coach will drum into the younger ones that the simple basics are the most important key elements of football first and foremost.

One of the best coaches we had for younger players imo was Donald Park. He had a great reputation for working with the younger players.



''Oh when the Hibs went up to lift the Scottish Cup we were there we were there''

[WoreTheGreen]

It's been said above but something definitely goes wrong from about 15/16 onwards.

I often wonder if too many kids think they have 'made it' by exclusively playing for Hibs, Hearts, Celtic etc at a young age. My Dad signed an old S form with Rangers in his early teens and trained in Glasgow 3 times a week however he still turned out for Hutchie Vale and trained with them as well. It's probably a bit of a dated system now but I think theirs a bit of merit in it; train with your pro team and develop the technicality there whilst playing competitive football at juveniles. Edinburgh has a rich history of clubs who produced professional footballers: Hutchie Vale, Edina Hibs, Tynecastle etc. I suppose the difficulty is that 1 good player can be worth a lot of money and pro clubs may not want to let them out their sight for too long.
PB can i ask your dad's age?

[Speedy]

I agree with this. I'm not sure what happens post 12/13 yrs old but we seem to lose something. Desire? Coaching? Attitude? Focus on the bigger lads?

Maybe too many missing out in the system but don't actually develop until 15/16/17.

Not sure.

I wonder how much of it is that players aren't given the slack to misbehave in the way they used to (the good old days are well before my time so tell me if I'm wrong).

What I mean by that is that I've seen many talented players who (at 15-18) get into bother at school, spend their weekends drinking and maybe taking drugs. They'd be binned in a minute these days where as I get the impression they'd be given a bit more slack to grow out of it in days gone by.

[Pretty Boy]

PB can i ask your dad's age?
57 in September.

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[WoreTheGreen]

Dad's name might know him

[bigwheel]

Scottish football went downhill when the OF starting bringing in foreign players and all the other teams tried to follow suit, instead of the odd quality ones like Sauzee and Latapy, we brought in loads of ***** like Zurabi etc. One or two quality ones to add and pass on knowledge would've been fine but far too many crap Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc have came here and deprived our top youngsters from getting a game.

Look at our history, the 50's and 70's being our most famous eras, not a foreigner in sight all Scottish talent.


Certainly the introduction of average foreign players will have reduced the game time of our own players ..which must have an impact

But I don't think it's as simple as that. during the 50s to 70s football was the main hobby for boys. They spent most of their free hours doing it...by the time they were mid teens they literally had many thousands of hours of practice under their belt in all conditions: streets, playgrounds, pitches of all standards.. Since the 80s there has been a big reduction in hours spent playing street and park football by kids...computers, the abundance of cars in the streets, other options and attractions...there is much less natural development of football skills now...and it must have some impact in the quality of the population of players.




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[superfurryhibby]

Very good points made. The likes of Sauzee and Latapy are players the youngsters would copy their technique, training, diet, etcetera, all the good habits a professional player needs to progress. There was a lot of foreign players who came in who were no better than the journeymen already here.

A good coach for the younger players is also very important one who will work tirelessly on the key elements of the game of which for me the most important is - Passing - probably the most fundamental football required ability. How many times have we seen a player make a stray pass to the opposition which leads to unnecessary pressure put on the team which leads to an opposition attack.

A good coach will drum into the younger ones that the simple basics are the most important key elements of football first and foremost.

One of the best coaches we had for younger players imo was Donald Park. He had a great reputation for working with the younger players.



''Oh when the Hibs went up to lift the Scottish Cup we were there we were there''



Latapy smoked, liked a bevvy and was a party animal.

Coaching, I would add working on the weaker foot. How many pros in our game are genuinely two footed? Seems shocking to me that guys make it to paid level without being able to use the weak foot.

[3pm]

Some of it has to be mental as well?

[Steve-O]

Every country has 'kids on computers' so while that may have played a part, there is a wider issue.

[Steve-O]

I heard Billy Brown on Radio Scotland yesterday rambling on about how the likes of Walter Smith, Archie Knox and Jim Jefferies, should be getting together to plot Scotland's future course !!!
The idea of these dinosaurs having anything to do with progressing the game is beyond me. Smith was successful due to his over inflated transfer kitty and Jefferies was nothing more than a bully boy. Definitely NOT the way forward !

Hopefully nobody listens to an erse like Brown! Surely Smith, Jeffries, Knox et al have had their chance?!

[northstandhibby]

Latapy smoked, liked a bevvy and was a party animal.

Coaching, I would add working on the weaker foot. How many pros in our game are genuinely two footed? Seems shocking to me that guys make it to paid level without being able to use the weak foot.

:greengrin

He had great technique though eh?





Glory Glory

[KeithTheHibby]

I don't get this 'Iceland should have been poor because they had a small population' stuff that gets banded about. How many World Cup have China won?

Iceland did well in the Euros down to having a great team spirit and work ethos and the fact they had nothing to lose, everyone expected them to get beat. And they had the good fortune of coming up against England.

What I really want for Scotland to do (and it's unlikely to happen after Cameron House) is instead of playing pointless friendly internationals is to take the players away for the weekend. Let them bond, play golf, have a BBQ, get to know each other better and get Strachan and his back room staff have team talks in a relaxed environment.

You'd be more likely to get players released from clubs for stuff like this instead of international friendlies as clubs would know there would be little chance of a player getting injured.

Might be a short term solution to Scotland's national team problems.

Erm Iceland have been doing pretty well for the last couple of years...they topped their group and beat Holland twice remember.

[PISTOL1875]

Scottish football will never change unless the guys that '' run '' our game quite simply GTF.. People that have ni idea how the football game is ran and they are simply nothing more than Dinosaurs with prehistoric ideas , a jobs for the boys attitiude and the mentality of accepting failure...

Mark Wotte left his position at the SFA because the guys in boardroom's won't change and reading between the lines , I suspect Brian McClair was feeling exactly the same...

[Ozyhibby]

Scottish football will never change unless the guys that '' run '' our game quite simply GTF.. People that have ni idea how the football game is ran and they are simply nothing more than Dinosaurs with prehistoric ideas , a jobs for the boys attitiude and the mentality of accepting failure...

Mark Wotte left his position at the SFA because the guys at the top won't change and reading between the lines , I suspect Brian McClair was feeling exactly the same...

I agree with you but not in McClair. He has been invisible since his appointment. He has picked up 13 months salary and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Zero.


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[ScottB]

I agree with you but not in McClair. He has been invisible since his appointment. He has picked up 13 months salary and has absolutely nothing to show for it. Zero.


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From the sounds of it, he's spent much of that time in boardrooms trying to convince people of what change was needed.

Sums up our problem right there.

[bigwheel]

I don't get this 'Iceland should have been poor because they had a small population' stuff that gets banded about. How many World Cup have China won?

Iceland did well in the Euros down to having a great team spirit and work ethos and the fact they had nothing to lose, everyone expected them to get beat. And they had the good fortune of coming up against England.

What I really want for Scotland to do (and it's unlikely to happen after Cameron House) is instead of playing pointless friendly internationals is to take the players away for the weekend. Let them bond, play golf, have a BBQ, get to know each other better and get Strachan and his back room staff have team talks in a relaxed environment.

You'd be more likely to get players released from clubs for stuff like this instead of international friendlies as clubs would know there would be little chance of a player getting injured.

Might be a short term solution to Scotland's national team problems.

It was much more than team spirit ...Iceland over 10 years ago put it a country wide investment (many pitches etc) and programme to create great facilities for everyone and get everyone, at all ages, playing more football ...they also invested in more coaches per head than any other European country ..to give a set up that provided coaching for kids of all ages ...

[WhileTheChief..]

So we want the blazers at the SFA telling Lennon or Dempster what we should be doing at East Mains?? Seriously?

If we are being resistant to change that comes from the SFA then that suits me fine. All these reports on the 'state' of the game are pointless. The biggest issue was when the government decided that kids shouldn't play to win, but play to enjoy. Killed it right there.

It's 100% down to the clubs to operate how they see fit.

[WoreTheGreen]

It was much more than team spirit ...Iceland over 10 years ago put it a country wide investment (many pitches etc) and programme to create great facilities for everyone and get everyone, at all ages, playing more football ...they also invested in more coaches per head than any other European country ..to give a set up that provided coaching for kids of all ages .... You mean they have not got. "Coaches" screaming " oot the park for medals"

[Ozyhibby]

From the sounds of it, he's spent much of that time in boardrooms trying to convince people of what change was needed.

Sums up our problem right there.

Mark Wotte managed to spread the word though and implement changes. McClair has been the invisible man. An absolute non entity.


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[bigwheel]

. You mean they have not got. "Coaches" screaming " oot the park for medals"

Ha. It's a special SFA sponsored class to learn that skill !

[Alfred E Newman]

Scottish football went downhill when the OF starting bringing in foreign players and all the other teams tried to follow suit, instead of the odd quality ones like Sauzee and Latapy, we brought in loads of ***** like Zurabi etc. One or two quality ones to add and pass on knowledge would've been fine but far too many crap Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc have came here and deprived our top youngsters from getting a game.

Look at our history, the 50's and 70's being our most famous eras, not a foreigner in sight all Scottish talent.

:agree:
And Spanish and Italian sides would dread a visit to Scotland on cup business.

[bigwheel]

:agree:
And Spanish and Italian sides would dread a visit to Scotland on cup business.

Whilst those days were amazing ...I feel a lot of that view is harking back to a football age that whilst superb for us, doesn't exist anymore ...the game has moved on , tactically and technique wise been completely transformed...and we have been left behind for technique.....

[Phil MaGlass]

I have really tried to ignore this thread. Its the same thing we have been asking for the last 30-40 years. Its the Hun sellik stranglehold on the game its the SFA its too large pitches for bairns no proper facilities. Scottish fitba is pish in Europe foe one reason. The f,n SFA. Dinosaurs unwilling to change and small clubs unwilling to change and SPL clubs for voting for the status quo. The gam in Scotland is a f, n bogey. It s only been entertaining cos the huns were nae where near it. Its only goin tae get worse and yi can blame teams like Aberdeen and Kilmarnock for it. Ahve nae time tae go oan aboot it. Ahm off tae ma wurk.
Fu--all will change. Our game has been and always will be run by elf interested ar5eholes.

[HappyHanlon]

We need to start from scratch. One body covering ALL age ranges.

Encourage young players to enjoy being on the ball, not just lumping it away as soon as they get it.

Would love to see some of the current players going along and working with the younger age ranges. Even write it into their contracts at club level that they must attend a development day to pass on help and support.

[Swedish hibee]

You can't compare Scotland to the Scandinavian countries as they mentality is totally different between the countries. Getting children into sport/exercise is encouraged by the government, education and communities.

[jgl07]

Scottish football went downhill when the OF starting bringing in foreign players and all the other teams tried to follow suit, instead of the odd quality ones like Sauzee and Latapy, we brought in loads of ***** like Zurabi etc. One or two quality ones to add and pass on knowledge would've been fine but far too many crap Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians etc have came here and deprived our top youngsters from getting a game.

Look at our history, the 50's and 70's being our most famous eras, not a foreigner in sight all Scottish talent.
You are mixing up symptoms rather than causes.

Teams bring in foreign players either because they are cheaper than home grown or because they are better.

The influx of foreign players other than to Rangers and Celtic came when UEFA set limits on the number of non-Scottish players for European competitions. Rangers and Celtic hoovered up the best Scottish players and the likes of Hibs were priced out. The Bosman ruling ended these restrictions but by then the lack of good Scottish players became apparent.

Do you think that McLeish would have gained promotion and taken Hibs to third place without Sauzee, Latapy, Mixu, Zitelli, Laursen, etc? Would Mowbray and Collins have acheived what they did without Benji, Zemmama, not to mention Murphy, Jones, Hogg, Sproule, etc?

[J-C]

You are mixing up symptoms rather than causes.

Teams bring in foreign players either because they are cheaper than home grown or because they are better.

The influx of foreign players other than to Rangers and Celtic came when UEFA set limits on the number of non-Scottish players for European competitions. Rangers and Celtic hoovered up the best Scottish players and the likes of Hibs were priced out. The Bosman ruling ended these restrictions but by then the lack of good Scottish players became apparent.

Do you think that McLeish would have gained promotion and taken Hibs to third place without Sauzee, Latapy, Mixu, Zitelli, Laursen, etc? Would Mowbray and Collins have acheived what they did without Benji, Zemmama, not to mention Murphy, Jones, Hogg, Sproule, etc?


My point was not the total amount but the quality that has came in, we were fortunate enough to have those players you mention ( I will not count English, Irish or Welsh as we've always had players from the UK play for us ). WE and I mean most clubs outwith the OF have signed players from abroad simply because we assumed foreign meant better, the odd one or two here and there were better but Scottish football has seen many very poor foreign players taking too much money out of this league. Our youngsters were put to one side as we all chased instant success and a stream of ageing average players started coming in from down south and abroad ( I give you De Graaf ), now we are all skint with little tv money coming in, we've had to nurture our youngsters again but the problem has been we've ignored the coaching of our youth for too long now and many probably get fed up never seemingly getting a chance.

We now have an opportunity to attempt to put things right because there seems to be less foreign players in our game and that gives us a great chance to develop them.

[mjhibby]

One thing that amazes me as I do coaching is that each different club seem to have different thoughts on how to bring the guys on. Some are trying to make it technical and mostly skills,some are skills and pass and move,some are fitness pass and move and ocassional long balls and some of course just want to win. We could start by making sure all kids can do he basics. Trap the ball,pass accurately and at speed,always look for space,be able to defend properly and midfielders who know how to cross a ball to a teammate. The number of kids I see who can't do what when I were a lad just taken for granted is frightening. Unless we get it right from a very young age we can look forward to many barren years in Scottish football. Not forgetting that we aren't producing the tanner baw players anymore. Pretty depressing but we have to start from the basics and unless we do it nothing will change.

[Ozyhibby]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36874392


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[madabouthibs]

Coaching. If yer mates with a coach you can probably get a coaching role at most juvey clubs.
There's a lot of coaches, but not enough good coaches. I played Sunday league for years, and I could easily shout at a few u14's on a Sunday and tell them to hoof the ball as far away from our goal as possible.

[The Modfather]

Scottish football will never change unless the guys that '' run '' our game quite simply GTF.. People that have ni idea how the football game is ran and they are simply nothing more than Dinosaurs with prehistoric ideas , a jobs for the boys attitiude and the mentality of accepting failure...

Mark Wotte left his position at the SFA because the guys in boardroom's won't change and reading between the lines , I suspect Brian McClair was feeling exactly the same...

Our very own Rod Petrie working his way up the jobs for the boys SFA ladder. I dread to think of Petrie having any influence on Scottish football, bad enough he is still around like a bad smell at us.

[lord bunberry]

Coaching. If yer mates with a coach you can probably get a coaching role at most juvey clubs.
There's a lot of coaches, but not enough good coaches. I played Sunday league for years, and I could easily shout at a few u14's on a Sunday and tell them to hoof the ball as far away from our goal as possible.
You may be getting a call from Anne Budge shortly :greengrin

[madabouthibs]

You may be getting a call from Anne Budge shortly :greengrin
Exactly! Hoofball is our game.
Simple passing, crossing, reading the game, communication and composure is something that seems to pass most of these kids by.
Most annoying though is a lack of movement off the ball. It's seems that, if you pass to a teammate then your job is done and you can have a wee stand about and a swagger.

[PISTOL1875]

Our very own Rod Petrie working his way up the jobs for the boys SFA ladder. I dread to think of Petrie having any influence on Scottish football, bad enough he is still around like a bad smell at us.

Exactly mate.. It's bad enough Petrie having an inflluence here , but him sitting at the top table in the Hampden boardroom is mind numbing...

[Matty_Jack04]

There's a podcast called 'fitbaw hacks' currently has an episode with a young Scottish coach called Stevie Greive who has a bit to say on this, he talks well comes across a bit of a no it all in parts maybe a touch bitter about being over looked, but its well worth a listen

[Forza Fred]

When I were a lad, playing at a windswept Gyle or at 45 degrees at sloping Inverleith, we were encouraged to play the ball into the SPACE for our teammates to run onto it...much like the Turbull Tornadoes did.

These days it appears kids are taught to play it direct to the feet of a team mate.

I ain't Billy Broon but I do think sometimes the former is more exciting and entertaining than the latter, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

Sometimes I have spleen at games where lots of passes have been made,but passes were for passing sake , with no outcome.

Yawn....

[gegs70]

I'm unclear on how kids are invited to join the development schools? I know they are not scouted to go to development schools.

[Dashing Bob S]

I would start with Dempster and Budge, and any other smart women you could find that were interested in Scottish football, and just take all the other useless, compromised Masonic ****ers and opportunists, and throw them off a cliff.

Only then will the game improve.

[mjhibby]

Exactly! Hoofball is our game.
Simple passing, crossing, reading the game, communication and composure is something that seems to pass most of these kids by.
Most annoying though is a lack of movement off the ball. It's seems that, if you pass to a teammate then your job is done and you can have a wee stand about and a swagger.
Totally correct. For whatever reason kids don't look up for a pass and move into space to receive a pass. They then moan at the player trying to pass to them when they are marked. Spartans are the exception from what I've seen and tranent teams are great to watch. The rest are much of a muchness with skill not top if the agenda.

[mjhibby]

When I were a lad, playing at a windswept Gyle or at 45 degrees at sloping Inverleith, we were encouraged to play the ball into the SPACE for our teammates to run onto it...much like the Turbull Tornadoes did.

These days it appears kids are taught to play it direct to the feet of a team mate.

I ain't Billy Broon but I do think sometimes the former is more exciting and entertaining than the latter, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

Sometimes I have spleen at games where lots of passes have been made,but passes were for passing sake , with no outcome.

Yawn....

That's down to coaching. You need to teach kids in phases and then like a jigsaw coming together they understand and adapt. A lot of kids are reasonably talented but football isn't their passion as it was for us old ones who were like sponges wanting to learn how to get better. The PlayStation generation I'm afraid.

[Greenworld]

Nobody taught us technical skills in the school playground. Some were hopeless like me and some better than others and it was obvious who had natural talent and was going to go on and play the game at a decent level.
You just don't see kids playing football now other than at local boys club training at the weekend.
I suppose footballs are not allowed in the playground at most schools now, after all somebody could get their eye knocked out.
That's the difference in the 60's at primary school or in the park is played football all day till it was dark.
My shooting skills were developed playing long bangers.
My heading skills playing heady
From the moment you woke up till you went to bed you had a ball at your feet.
It was 20 aside at the park and the winner was when it was dark.
That's how the best generation of footballers Scotland ever had learned.

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[Northernhibee]

That's the difference in the 60's at primary school or in the park is played football all day till it was dark.
My shooting skills were developed playing long bangers.
My heading skills playing heady
From the moment you woke up till you went to bed you had a ball at your feet.
It was 20 aside at the park and the winner was when it was dark.
That's how the best generation of footballers Scotland ever had learned.

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The problem is football has moved on. As well as that we need to create players who can play on the modern way and are technically talented.

What you're saying is we need players with plenty of practice which is one part of it. We also need much better coaching at youth level.

[Greenworld]

The problem is football has moved on. As well as that we need to create players who can play on the modern way and are technically talented.

What you're saying is we need players with plenty of practice which is one part of it. We also need much better coaching at youth level.
Football is still the same...fitter yes...bigger taller in some cases...personally I would ban coaches from the kids level and let them enjoy learn and play coaching can be introduced maybe from 12 upwards

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[Northernhibee]

Football is still the same...fitter yes...bigger taller in some cases...personally I would ban coaches from the kids level and let them enjoy learn and play coaching can be introduced maybe from 12 upwards

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Football is much more technical than before, I know an ex Livi youth player and he says there's far too many fitness drills and very little technical skills being taught in our youth system. We don't need fitter footballers, we need better footballers.

[bigwheel]

Football is much more technical than before, I know an ex Livi youth player and he says there's far too many fitness drills and very little technical skills being taught in our youth system. We don't need fitter footballers, we need better footballers.


nail on the head....we need technically better players...that's what the Spain, Holland, Belgiums, more recently Iceland etc have done...concentrated on playing more football and developing technically better players.

The game has changed a lot, even in the last 10-15 years...it's in technical ability that we are being left behind...

[Greenworld]

Football is much more technical than before, I know an ex Livi youth player and he says there's far too many fitness drills and very little technical skills being taught in our youth system. We don't need fitter footballers, we need better footballers.
I agree totally I'm going to change the word technical to skillful.
You learn your skills as a kid trying things.flicks ..putting spin on the ball ..shooting ...dribbling .....tackling
The technical side should not come into play until 12 onwards
I will say though that some guys are natural John Mcginn reminds me so much of john collins when he made his hibs debut in my opinion

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[Brightside]

The problem is football has moved on. As well as that we need to create players who can play on the modern way and are technically talented.

What you're saying is we need players with plenty of practice which is one part of it. We also need much better coaching at youth level.

Coaching is only a small part of it. We have a lazy nation now. A coach can only do so much with 3 hrs or so a week...if they leave there, go home, play an xbox and eat monster munch we really don't have much chance of improving things. Bottom line is that kids are nowhere near as active as they were in the 70s/80s. Parents have a responsibility for the fitness of children...but there are now 30% of children who are clinically overweight.

[heretoday]

Jimmy Johnstone and Denis Law used to play under street lights with the tanner ba'. You can't do that now as there are too many ugly great cars parked with owners who feel threatened if you touch them.

Jumpers for goalposts? You never see that in the public parks. In fact you never see much action in the parks at all apart from red-faced parents screaming at Darren as he fails to make a "telling pass".

Maybe the new Pokemon game will get the kids out more.

[Brightside]

Football is still the same...fitter yes...bigger taller in some cases...personally I would ban coaches from the kids level and let them enjoy learn and play coaching can be introduced maybe from 12 upwards

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Not coaching kids until 12 is madness. How do they learn new skills, drills, basics of the game without coaching?

[Greenworld]

Not coaching kids until 12 is madness. How do they learn new skills, drills, basics of the game without coaching?
Like we did in the old days ...whatever they are being coached these days is clearly not working ....
Just my view is understand your view as well but I've seen loads of terrible coaches and only some good guys in boys football.


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[Ozyhibby]

Like we did in the old days ...whatever they are being coached these days is clearly not working ....
Just my view is understand your view as well but I've seen loads of terrible coaches and only some good guys in boys football.


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The ten year olds I coach now are a lot more skilful than when I was a kid, especially their dribbling skills. What's maybe not emphasised enough here and the kids don't practise enough is their ability to receive passes but over all kids these days are very dedicated. Play stations have just replaced TV in the things adults moan at the kids about. The older people get, the longer the number of hours they claim to have spent outside playing footy as kids.


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[Greenworld]

The ten year olds I coach now are a lot more skilful than when I was a kid, especially their dribbling skills. What's maybe not emphasised enough here and the kids don't practise enough is their ability to receive passes but over all kids these days are very dedicated. Play stations have just replaced TV in the things adults moan at the kids about. The older people get, the longer the number of hours they claim to have spent outside playing footy as kids.


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Nail on the head controlling the ball when received is the most important skill in the game so many pros can't do it frustrates the life out of me

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[Hibby Bairn]

Football is still the same...fitter yes...bigger taller in some cases...personally I would ban coaches from the kids level and let them enjoy learn and play coaching can be introduced maybe from 12 upwards

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There is a lot to like in what you say here. I think you still need the organisation to make things happen (as kids won't play much without it) but instead of coach you have an organiser. Someone who organises the football but then just lets the kids play. Problem is it needs to take place every night!

[mjhibby]

Football is much more technical than before, I know an ex Livi youth player and he says there's far too many fitness drills and very little technical skills being taught in our youth system. We don't need fitter footballers, we need better footballers.

It's so blindingly obvious to everybody except those running football.

[superfurryhibby]

There are less places to play these days. In places like Edinburgh, lots of school playgrounds have been divided up, have had installed garden areas and equipment for play. I've got young laddies and when we go to the park, it's rare to see kids organising their own kick abouts, never mind the street v street take on's and massive games of knockout etc.

Folk saying that nothing has changed are kidding themselves. So many kids are cossetted and stay indoors. In my heyday, the 1970's, whch saw me reach my mid-late teens, there was vitually no TV during the day, no screens to play with and not that much inthe way of alternative leisure. You left the hoose at 9am and came back at 5. If it was pissing down you might return for some scran at some point. We were always active, fitness was just a given.

The modern day childhood experience is totally unlike this. Football was our world, with a wee bit nonsense and a bit of levoy and tennis chucked in, along with the odd trip to the baths etc. If you were decent then you played for your school and then the juveniles on a Sunday.

At my old boys club, Tynecastle, we were coached by a very nice guy, Dougie Dalglish. There was no talk of tactics or formations etc. We just went out and enjoyed it. We were always a good side and competed with Hutchy and Salveson. Plenty I played against and with went on to play at a good level.

Is there any evidence to suggest that all this pro youth and the like has improved anything at all? It would seem to me that the reverse is the case. Too many laddies sucked up and spat out disillusioned with the game. I saw it with my eldest and he took more than ten years to get back into playing. He's now goalie for a very successful amateur side in the Surrey County Leagues and loving the game again, but he was lost to it for a a long time.

[Dr What If?]

I think the direction of how Wotte wanted to go was quite interesting, developing a 'Scottish style'. It played into the generally accepted truth that our kids were not good enough but also provided an insight into how outsiders saw our game. Looking in, Wotte saw there was already was a 'Scottish style', what people on here call hoofball, little skill, 100 miles and hour and with the ball in the air for 90% of the game. Step one, he felt, was to develop a new style - more in line with what he saw in Holland.
Academies were established and clubs consulted. Now we accepted coaches were the problem and we went on the hunt for the golden goose that would transform our players, enter the 10k hours theory.
FWIW I think the Wotte view of our youngsters was rather disparaging, performance at U21 level on the international stage was never a concern, it was the big team that was failing. We have plenty of excellent coaches who could do with getting a bit more respect and they are not telling kids just to 'hoof' the ball. It is when the kids enter the professional game things seem to go down hill. Opportunities to play become limited and our league set-up promotes 'fear football' rather than a platform to entertain. Professional football in Holland is a different beast to its Scottish counterpart.
Look at how we as Hibs fans have been slavering over our club trying to raid Celtic for their kids, there is real talent in there and the likes of Henderson is no where near getting a game for his primary employers - there is talent, it is just getting so far and then not being taken to the next level. 20 year olds need to be playing against seasoned pro's if they themselves are going to develop but the pro game does the opposite. If you are a talented kid you are brought into clubs who seem to hoard young players and after a while of stifled development, they go backwards before re-emerging in their late 20s in the championship/league 1 or lower, best years behind them.
Every top professional club is guilty, OF in particular but only because of their relative size. Self interest, ego, need for 'immediate' fixes, etc. are all reasons. It is at the top we need the change, blaming the Saturday coach is too easy and in any case, is the wrong target.

[Dr What If?]

Just to be a pest, I have one other wee gripe, the constant belittling of the fitness training our players must endure. As many have commented, football is a different game to 20 years ago. Look at the vast majority of players in any of Europe's top leagues, barely an ounce of fat on them and ridiculously defined abs - this is not by accident and is not just for show. Even defenders in top clubs are expected to run the equivalent of a 10k over 90 minutes, coaches even track the amount of meters a player runs. Strikers are expected to hit the ball with the same power and accuracy after 89 mins as after 1m - with no sign of fatigue.
The modern player needs to be an athlete and you can be coached to be faster, to jump higher, to be stronger. Having a player like that is like having another man on the pitch. Yes, skill and technique are top of a coach's list but fitness should never be far behind.

[Thecat23]

Kid + ball + encouragement + place to play = Progress.

[ancient hibee]

Kid + ball + encouragement + place to play = Progress.


I believe lots of kids don't enjoy their football because of overbearing dads on the touch lines shouting the odds.

[marinello59]

I believe lots of kids don't enjoy their football because of overbearing dads on the touch lines shouting the odds.

Aye, it's a pretty miserable experience for some. When we were playing 20 a side games as kids the only parental involvement came from your Mum shouting for you to come in because it was dark.

[Pretty Boy]

I believe lots of kids don't enjoy their football because of overbearing dads on the touch lines shouting the odds.

It certainly doesn't help.

I was playing yesterday morning, at half time I had a wee look over at the game going on on the pitch next to us. The lads playing couldn't have been older than 13/14. One team were knocking the ball about at the back, passed it into midfield, player tried to play in the striker and just overhit it and it carried through to the keeper. Probably about 10 passes or so and it was good to watch. Cue a fat, baldy ersehole on the touchline screaming at the young lad who tried the pass to 'dae whit ah telt ye and hit the ****ing corners'. A couple of minutes later the keeper threw the ball out to the right back, the Edinburgh Guardiolas response? To tell the keeper 'Jamie, Jamie get the baw ****ing sent, put the fit through it.'

The young lads suddenly looked terrified to try anything. It's very good of a guy like that to give up his time but his ilk are probably driving lads away from football. Oh and his team won 2-0 from 2 hoofs up the park so job done I suppose.

[ancient hibee]

It certainly doesn't help.

I was playing yesterday morning, at half time I had a wee look over at the game going on on the pitch next to us. The lads playing couldn't have been older than 13/14. One team were knocking the ball about at the back, passed it into midfield, player tried to play in the striker and just overhit it and it carried through to the keeper. Probably about 10 passes or so and it was good to watch. Cue a fat, baldy ersehole on the touchline screaming at the young lad who tried the pass to 'dae whit ah telt ye and hit the ****ing corners'. A couple of minutes later the keeper threw the ball out to the right back, the Edinburgh Guardiolas response? To tell the keeper 'Jamie, Jamie get the baw ****ing sent, put the fit through it.'

The young lads suddenly looked terrified to try anything. It's very good of a guy like that to give up his time but his ilk are probably driving lads away from football. Oh and his team won 2-0 from 2 hoofs up the park so job done I suppose.


And that's what's wrong.To these touch line ranters it's all about winning the game rather than learning to play it and use different skills.The winning will come later.

[J-C]

It certainly doesn't help.

I was playing yesterday morning, at half time I had a wee look over at the game going on on the pitch next to us. The lads playing couldn't have been older than 13/14. One team were knocking the ball about at the back, passed it into midfield, player tried to play in the striker and just overhit it and it carried through to the keeper. Probably about 10 passes or so and it was good to watch. Cue a fat, baldy ersehole on the touchline screaming at the young lad who tried the pass to 'dae whit ah telt ye and hit the ****ing corners'. A couple of minutes later the keeper threw the ball out to the right back, the Edinburgh Guardiolas response? To tell the keeper 'Jamie, Jamie get the baw ****ing sent, put the fit through it.'

The young lads suddenly looked terrified to try anything. It's very good of a guy like that to give up his time but his ilk are probably driving lads away from football. Oh and his team won 2-0 from 2 hoofs up the park so job done I suppose.


From the Butcher/Malpas book of tactics I presume.

[silverhibee]

One thing for me that could be an issue is that very few teenagers get any decent level of first team game time. A few do, but often players get released at 18-20 without really getting a chance. Even if they have done quite well at development team level. Other countries seem to find a way to give youngsters more game time. It's not uncommon to see 20 year olds with 100 first team games...if they don't get a chance, it's hard to know if they can crack it...

Doing away with the reserve league many years ago was the biggest mistake that has happened to Scottish football, it gave young lads a chance to see if they could compete against a team that probably consisted of 7 players who would have been on the bench from the week before and players coming back from injury with 4 players from the 21s making up the starting 11 and with the bench being made up of younger lads, it was a great learning curve for the young ones coming through the ranks at each club and it gave the coaches a good idea who would make it and who wouldn't seeing them play up against a good reserve team with a number of established pro's playing in the game.

Might be wrong here, but pretty sure it was the old firm who were the two clubs who wanted to do away with the reserve league, it served no purpose to them, they weren't big on developing youngsters as they needed players to play 1st team football so they spent big money on players to go straight in to the 1st team and certainly didn't want them playing in a reserve league where they might pick up a injury from a young hungry lad who was trying to impress his manager with some hefty tackles, and since the scrapping of the reserve league Scottish football has went downhill drastically, it really is a mess, will it improve, I hope so,it really can't get any worse than the state it is in just now.

[Hibby Bairn]

Doing away with the reserve league many years ago was the biggest mistake that has happened to Scottish football, it gave young lads a chance to see if they could compete against a team that probably consisted of 7 players who would have been on the bench from the week before and players coming back from injury with 4 players from the 21s making up the starting 11 and with the bench being made up of younger lads, it was a great learning curve for the young ones coming through the ranks at each club and it gave the coaches a good idea who would make it and who wouldn't seeing them play up against a good reserve team with a number of established pro's playing in the game.

Might be wrong here, but pretty sure it was the old firm who were the two clubs who wanted to do away with the reserve league, it served no purpose to them, they weren't big on developing youngsters as they needed players to play 1st team football so they spent big money on players to go straight in to the 1st team and certainly didn't want them playing in a reserve league where they might pick up a injury from a young hungry lad who was trying to impress his manager with some hefty tackles, and since the scrapping of the reserve league Scottish football has went downhill drastically, it really is a mess, will it improve, I hope so,it really can't get any worse than the state it is in just now.

Any idea when the reserve league ended?

[MSK]

Any idea when the reserve league ended?2008/09 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_Reserve_League

[silverhibee]

The pro youth set up is definitely a problem. The team I coach has just lost 5 players to Hibs and Hearts. Given that it's 7-a-side, this is a big loss. Luckily we have a big set up with lots of kids ready to jump in but a smaller club may have folded in such circumstances. This is a team for ten year olds.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is all youth coaching for Hibs kids/babies done at EM, at 10 year old they shouldn't be getting picked up by clubs at that age, a bit of false hope in it, mums& dads will be thinking my lad has made it and he is only 10 and signed by Hibs and the other mob, EM isn't the easiest place to get to and will need a lot of dedication from mum & dad each week to get them there for training, and I take it by the age of 12 and not up to standard what next, dreams are shattered and they might just give up on the game as they might find it hard to find a local youth club again.

[Earl of Currie]

2008/09 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Premier_Reserve_League

Would this be a suitable alternative to a reserve league.

http://www.premierleague.com/news/58764

To be honest , if a player isn't showing the signs of breaking through to a Scottish club by the age of 20 , I would be releasing them anyway.
Frequently a club will already have invested 5 to 6 years in the player so should be able to gauge if they are going to step up to the first team.
Essentially , a club should be able to look to the under 21 (or in this case 23) any time a first team player is injured or left the club.
It should be a regular cycle of players coming through and first team players moving on.
A league like this allows clubs to bring through their own players , have a few experienced players playing regularly and being able to sign lower league players and give them a stepping stone to the first team whilst all getting a regular game.

[Earl of Currie]

Even taking it one step further (and why not aim high here), why are we not trying to get a you policy which greants us access to these competitions ,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_International_Cup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Youth_League

Why not position ourselves as a club which can be good/attractive enough to compete in these competitions.
With the right approach , Hibs could position themselves as a club which has this level of youth player.
By selling ourselves as a club which wants to play at this level and offer a pathway into the first team youngsters will be attracted to Hibs.
Otherwise they aregoing to end up being snapped by the lieks of Warburton (who's NextGen series was the forerunner to the above) and Rangers will be taking the place which Hibs could acheive.