Female front line soldiers

[NAE NOOKIE]

First things first .... I do not for a second doubt the ability of females to be good combat troops and there is no question of a lack of courage from females in war time, the stories of Odette Hallowes and Violette Szabo for example are ( though extraordinary ) both testament to that.

Perhaps I am just old fashioned, perhaps you could even say I'm being sexist, but having said the above I find it very sad that we have reached a time where it is acceptable, even desireable in the name of equality, to put female soldiers at the sharp end of combat situations. For me one of the last remaining vestiges of civilization was that it was the sad responsibility of the male of the species to slaughter each other, with the females of planet earth standing on the sidelines, or at worst in a behind the lines supporting role, shaking their heads at the bloody insanity and waste of it all.

I am aware that both the USSR in WW2 and Israel since then have both employed female soldiers as front line troops, as have many gorilla groups, but these I would suggest were the result of a 'needs must' situation.

If the pinnacle of equality is that we now afford women the opportunity to lie in a field in Afghanistan or some other far flung location, with a leg blown off screaming for their mother I'm not sure in my mind that that advances the cause of humanity one iota.

[High-On-Hibs]

People who decide they want to put themselves on the front line, so they can fight ideological government battles is their choice. Male or female.

If they want to delude themselves into the belief that they are some how "fighting for their country". Then they are free to do so. Personally, I would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

[High-On-Hibs]

Also, your last part about women "screaming for their mothers" on the battle field. It wouldn't just be the woman.

[Onceinawhile]

If women want to do it and are physically able, then so be it.

The idea that men killing men for no reason is more noble than a man killing a woman for no reason is frankly insane.

[--------]

Also, your last part about women "screaming for their mothers" on the battle field. It wouldn't just be the woman.

:agree:

I've read in a number of histories of the First and Second World Wars that for many, many soldiers their last impulse at the point of death was to call out for their mothers. It seems to be an instinctive human reaction to the approach of death.

I don't like the idea of any young person 'dying for his or her country', but to be honest, I can't quite see why some people consider it so much worse for a young woman to be killed than for a young man. Putting emotion aside, is a woman's life more valuable or significant than a man's? Her death more significant than the deaths of her male comrades?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Also, your last part about women "screaming for their mothers" on the battle field. It wouldn't just be the woman.

It was because its allegedly commonplace for men to do that that I used the scenario.

[Hibrandenburg]

Having served as a soldier for 13 years I met many very competent women soldiers working in specialised areas such as communication, medical services and military police to name but a few. They added a great deal to the job and offered certain skills that you don't associate with men. However I think putting woman on the front line is a step too far, I don't deny that there may be some out there who could carry out the job as good as your average man, I just haven't met any.

[Onceinawhile]

Having served as a soldier for 13 years I met many very competent women soldiers working in specialised areas such as communication, medical services and military police to name but a few. They added a great deal to the job and offered certain skills that you don't associate with men. However I think putting woman on the front line is a step too far, I don't deny that there may be some out there who could carry out the job as good as your average man, I just haven't met any.

If the reason for them not being on the front line is that theu can't do the job - then fine, but they shouldn't be stopped just because of their gender.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If women want to do it and are physically able, then so be it.

The idea that men killing men for no reason is more noble than a man killing a woman for no reason is frankly insane.


:agree:


I don't like the idea of any young person 'dying for his or her country', but to be honest, I can't quite see why some people consider it so much worse for a young woman to be killed than for a young man. Putting emotion aside, is a woman's life more valuable or significant than a man's? Her death more significant than the deaths of her male comrades?

I absolutely agree with both of you .... But I think the point I am trying to make is that even though in many cases its only been paid lip service, the fact that over the centuries males of any age have been seen as actual or potential combatants makes and has made them targets for enemy action even out of uniform, whereas females have largely been viewed as non combatants and as a result they at least in theory should be safer ( their lives at least ) from the worst excesses of an enemy and certainly that of an occupying force. Even in this day and age maltreatment of females by an enemy and especially by an occupying force is seen as a cowardly and despicable act.

If you have a situation where an army employs females as front line soldiers it creates a situation where all females must be viewed in the same way as males regarding their potential as combatants and that hugely increases the danger for every female civilian.

I know its becoming an old fashioned view, but as I said, my only real objection to this is that in some way the fact that females were not viewed as 'fair game' by an enemy and that to go against that view has historically been viewed as beyond the pale in some way made us better as a species ..... It may be fair in a modern world to take an action that changes that point of view ... it may well be the case that today's women feel that it is a situation that should change.

I just find it a little bit sad ( political correctness notwithstanding ) that the latest drive towards equality is to give females the same opportunity to kill and be killed as men .... as I said, I just do not see how that can be a boon to humanity.

I would be very interested to see the results of a poll targeting women between the ages of 18 and 35 that asked the question: If war was declared with Russia tomorrow would you want to see women in your age group conscripted into front line combat roles exactly the same as men?

[Colr]

i would be very interested to see the results of a poll targeting women between the ages of 18 and 35 that asked the question: If war was declared with russia tomorrow would you want to see women in your age group conscripted into front line combat roles exactly the same as men?


white feather campaigns?

[McD]

People who decide they want to put themselves on the front line, so they can fight ideological government battles is their choice. Male or female.

If they want to delude themselves into the belief that they are some how "fighting for their country". Then they are free to do so. Personally, I would have absolutely nothing to do with it.


Its each individual's personal choice as to what they do - there's no need to use words such as 'delude'. I'm sure you have made choices others would see as deluded, and I doubt you'd feel particularly happy to have someone describe your personal choices as such.

[Hibrandenburg]

People who decide they want to put themselves on the front line, so they can fight ideological government battles is their choice. Male or female.

If they want to delude themselves into the belief that they are some how "fighting for their country". Then they are free to do so. Personally, I would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Granted there are a few who consider fighting for their country to be an honour, but it's you who is deluded if you think that's what motivates the majority of the military to join up.

[High-On-Hibs]

Its each individual's personal choice as to what they do - there's no need to use words such as 'delude'. I'm sure you have made choices others would see as deluded, and I doubt you'd feel particularly happy to have someone describe your personal choices as such.

Fair enough. I've made my point. People who read it know where I stand on it.


Granted there are a few who consider fighting for their country to be an honour, but it's you who is deluded if you think that's what motivates the majority of the military to join up.

On the contrary, I would consider it an honour as well, if it were actually true.

[lord bunberry]

Being a front line soldier should be based on ability to carry out the duties required of a front line soldier. I have no doubt that it would be mostly men who have those abilities, but I don't think we should rule out women because of their gender.

[(((Fergus)))]

Just as long as they don't get captured by those filthy dogs.

[steakbake]

It's probably wishful thinking that a post-Chilcot armed forces policy might be less about attack and more about actual defence. The UK has been involved in some military adventure (misadventure?) in each year since 1945.

The circle jerk about Britain's military 'might' has to end some day.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's probably wishful thinking that a post-Chilcot armed forces policy might be less about attack and more about actual defence. The UK has been involved in some military adventure (misadventure?) in each year since 1945.

The circle jerk about Britain's military 'might' has to end some day.

As long as we're part of a nation whose people long for the bygone days of the empire and ruling the waves then that will unfortunately never change.

[Speedy]

If they want to do the job and are capable then fair enough.

[NAE NOOKIE]

white feather campaigns?

Yeh .... That is the other side of the coin to my argument .... I never understood why people who were in no danger of being put in harms way felt it acceptable to pass judgment on those who were. Different times with a different mentality I suppose. I often wonder how the woman who was responsible for suggesting the Hearts badge should be changed to a white feather felt when she heard about the deaths of Hearts players who had joined up as a result of her letter to the papers. Her answer would have no doubt been to say 'their families should be proud that they did their duty'

I would hope that in this day and age an event like the carnage of the battle of the Somme would result in mass demonstrations in Britain and Germany demanding an end to such insanity.

[Future17]

The concern about whether women should be deployed in frontline combat roles is about one thing only as far as I'm concern - the attitude of men.

Some of it is conscious bias, relating to things like opinions that women are not as physically or mentally strong as men. Ultimately, it is the suggestion that women are not “good enough” to be relied upon in those roles. I think, broadly speaking, we’re moving beyond those opinions now being a barrier to such deployments.

What remains a barrier to this is how men would feel about differing scenarios which may arise with women on the frontline. Things like whether they would trust a female fellow soldier with their lives in the same way they would trust a man and whether men would have a protective instinct towards female soldiers in a way which could distract them from following orders/completing missions.

The biggest issue of all, however, is the scenario of women being captured by the enemy, particularly in conflicts where the Geneva Convention is not recognised. When Governments decide to take countries to war, they must manage the PR side of things in order to maintain the support and confidence of the nation for as long as possible. Nothing would be as likely to erode that support and confidence as the rape and torture of female soldiers.

[lord bunberry]

Yeh .... That is the other side of the coin to my argument .... I never understood why people who were in no danger of being put in harms way felt it acceptable to pass judgment on those who were. Different times with a different mentality I suppose. I often wonder how the woman who was responsible for suggesting the Hearts badge should be changed to a white feather felt when she heard about the deaths of Hearts players who had joined up as a result of her letter to the papers. Her answer would have no doubt been to say 'their families should be proud that they did their duty'

I would hope that in this day and age an event like the carnage of the battle of the Somme would result in mass demonstrations in Britain and Germany demanding an end to such insanity.
While I broadly agree with your post, I think it's important to point out that a lot of women died during the First World War working on the home front. The making of munitions was a task that women were enlisted to perform and resulted in many fatalities.

[NAE NOOKIE]

While I broadly agree with your post, I think it's important to point out that a lot of women died during the First World War working on the home front. The making of munitions was a task that women were enlisted to perform and resulted in many fatalities.

Well aware of that LB ...... As I said in my OP the question of women's courage and ability certainly wasn't up for debate as far as I am concerned.

[lord bunberry]

Well aware of that LB ...... As I said in my OP the question of women's courage and ability certainly wasn't up for debate as far as I am concerned.

And I wasn't suggesting you weren't aware of it buddy. I just feel that at this time of remembrance it's important to point it out.

[NAE NOOKIE]

And I wasn't suggesting you weren't aware of it buddy. I just feel that at this time of remembrance it's important to point it out.

:agree:

[--------]

white feather campaigns?


During the First World War servicemen home on leave had found they had to wear their uniforms - if they didn't officious women would present them with white feathers and demand to know why they weren't serving at the front.

(Source, Cecil Lewis, Sagittarius Rising - a wonderful book)


To adjust an old saying to need - what's sauce for the gander should surely be sauce for the goose?

To quote Rudyard Kipling - another writer from the period - the female of the species is deadlier than the male ....

[Alex Trager]

Having served as a soldier for 13 years I met many very competent women soldiers working in specialised areas such as communication, medical services and military police to name but a few. They added a great deal to the job and offered certain skills that you don't associate with men. However I think putting woman on the front line is a step too far, I don't deny that there may be some out there who could carry out the job as good as your average man, I just haven't met any.

Down to their training maybe?
I am not 100 sure about it but they are institutionally treated different to men. And thus don't come out behaving like men?

[Ozymandias]

Having served as a soldier for 13 years I met many very competent women soldiers working in specialised areas such as communication, medical services and military police to name but a few. They added a great deal to the job and offered certain skills that you don't associate with men. However I think putting woman on the front line is a step too far, I don't deny that there may be some out there who could carry out the job as good as your average man, I just haven't met any.

Having never served I don't know what the answer to this question is, but are you saying you have never met any woman who would be as good as a man on the frontline? It seems on the face of it unlikely. What is it the makes them less capable to be say a tank crew member or in the regular infantry?