EU playing hardball, surprise surprise.

[Hibbyradge]

The message from Leave that it would be oh so simple to get a trade agreement after brexit, because Europe wants our stuff, has unravelled already.

Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande and Matteo Renzi are holding a Press Conference now and have confirmed that there will be no informal negotiations on Brexit before the UK invokes Article 50!

So, the choice is Leave and take what we're given or find a way to overturn the referendum.

If it's the former, the EU won't give us much or they risk encouraging other countries to follow suit.

[High-On-Hibs]

Yep. Not surprising at all and highly predictable. The UK never was as big and mighty as British Nationalists/Unionists deluded themselves into believing.

The saddest thing about this is those from the poorest backgrounds desperate for an alternative who have found an alternative, only for it to be an alternative that they'll soon be wishing they stayed well clear of.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The EU Dictatorship in full swing.

I see nothing positive in trying to shut down democracy and deny people a vote and making it hard for other nations to leave.

IMO.

[ronaldo7]

The message from Leave that it would be oh so simple to get a trade agreement after brexit, because Europe wants our stuff, has unravelled already.

Angela Merkel, Francois Hollande and Matteo Renzi are holding a Press Conference now and have confirmed that there will be no informal negotiations on Brexit before the UK invokes Article 50!

So, the choice is Leave and take what we're given or find a way to overturn the referendum.

If it's the former, the EU won't give us much or they risk encouraging other countries to follow suit.


Camerons already said their will be no second EU ref.

[High-On-Hibs]

The EU Dictatorship in full swing.

I see nothing positive in trying to shut down democracy and deny people a vote and making it hard for other nations to leave.

IMO.

Has nothing to do with "dictatorship" or "making it hard for other nations to leave". The UK left believing they could have it all their own way. All the benefits of EU membership, with none of the compromise. The EU have rightfully informed them that it doesn't work that way. Why should it?

[Colr]

Camerons already said their will be no second EU ref.


It's not his decision to make.

[RyeSloan]

The EU Dictatorship in full swing. I see nothing positive in trying to shut down democracy and deny people a vote and making it hard for other nations to leave. IMO.

Ahh the European spirit of openness and friendship, you gotta love it ;-)

Junckers tone and comments immediately after the vote were rather telling of his opinion of the U.K. And just how likely the reform that most people agreed was required would be.

Seems Europe would happily play hard ball in a desperate attempt to 'persuade' others to stay rather than look after the interests of its people and its long time ally the UK. They are petrified of contagion which does rather beg the question as to why the UK and many others seem rather keen to leave....

[Hibbyradge]

Camerons already said their will be no second EU ref.

He didn't say that.

He said that he had no intention of calling one.

Someone else might.

However, there are other ways to stop Brexit. It's unlikely I guess so we're well goosed.

I don't think indy is a foregone conclusion so you jocks should stop being so smug about it. :greengrin:

[ronaldo7]

It's not his decision to make.

Who's is it then, and why did he say it in Parliament today?

[Hibbyradge]

Ahh the European spirit of openness and friendship, you gotta love it ;-)

Junckers tone and comments immediately after the vote were rather telling of his opinion of the U.K. And just how likely the reform that most people agreed was required would be.

Seems Europe would happily play hard ball in a desperate attempt to 'persuade' others to stay rather than look after the interests of its people and its long time ally the UK. They are petrified of contagion which does rather beg the question as to why the UK and many others seem rather keen to leave....

Why would they give the UK a better deal than countries like Norway etc?

Just because we've asked for one?

[Jack]

See when we voted was any timescale mentioned that is binding?

I know the Boy David said stuff but we know he's a suckling liar like the rest of them.

The UK just needs put the Article 50 thing on hold indefinitely ... or maybe longer!

[ronaldo7]

He didn't say that.

He said that he had no intention of calling one.

Someone else might.

However, there are other ways to stop Brexit. It's unlikely I guess so we're well goosed.

I don't think indy is a foregone conclusion so you jocks should stop being so smug about it. :greengrin:

Yurno getting a vote onywy ya anglo radge:greengrin

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why would they give the UK a better deal than countries like Norway etc?

Just because we've asked for one?

Im not saying they would, but if they did it would be a recognition that the eu needs the uk more than it needs norway?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Ahh the European spirit of openness and friendship, you gotta love it ;-)

Junckers tone and comments immediately after the vote were rather telling of his opinion of the U.K. And just how likely the reform that most people agreed was required would be.

Seems Europe would happily play hard ball in a desperate attempt to 'persuade' others to stay rather than look after the interests of its people and its long time ally the UK. They are petrified of contagion which does rather beg the question as to why the UK and many others seem rather keen to leave....

Agree, guys like junker and schulz annoy me - they are bound up in the EU, it gives them power and status rhat they coyld never otherwise have.

In the grand scheme of things, his opinion doesnt mattr much, as berlin, paris and rome will decide.

Bit he doesnt half pour petrol on rhe flames sometimes.

I work in a membership organisation, and if one od out biggest and most prestigious members wanted ro leave, e would have some pretty serious soul searching to do

[Geo_1875]

Agree, guys like junker and schulz annoy me - they are bound up in the EU, it gives them power and status rhat they coyld never otherwise have.

In the grand scheme of things, his opinion doesnt mattr much, as berlin, paris and rome will decide.

Bit he doesnt half pour petrol on rhe flames sometimes.

I work in a membership organisation, and if one od out biggest and most prestigious members wanted ro leave, e would have some pretty serious soul searching to do

I'm sure if they were publicly badmouthing your organisation you'd be glad to see the back of them.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I'm sure if they were publicly badmouthing your organisation you'd be glad to see the back of them.

Not at all - he who pays the piper and all that..

We would try and address their concerns.

Rhe eu is as complicit in this situation as we are - arrogant, amti-democratic and completely out of touch

[Moulin Yarns]

Quite right too


Juncker has banned all European Commissioners from holding any discussions with UK government... "No notification, no negotiaitons"

[(((Fergus)))]

Why would they give the UK a better deal than countries like Norway etc?

Just because we've asked for one?

I can think of three reasons:

1 The UK economy is five times bigger than the Norwegian one.
2 Norway has a trade surplus with the EU, we have a significant deficit, therefore German CBI – among others – are on the phone.
4 Current threats may chasten some other rebellious states, however it is also very bad PR for an entity that brands itself democratic yet is increasingly seen as dictatorial.

[(((Fergus)))]

Quite right too

This Juncker gadgey is a stickler for protocol :greengrin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPgiI46FCDU

[jonty]

As I understood it, there are no negotiations on leaving. We leave. End of.
Negotiations start after we leave. We cant pick and chose which parts we want to leave. That's like checking the poke of sweeties to see whats available......

[SHODAN]

The EU Dictatorship in full swing.

I see nothing positive in trying to shut down democracy and deny people a vote and making it hard for other nations to leave.

IMO.

UK: We want out but we want all the good stuff we got when we were in and no bad stuff.

EU: No

Hardly a dictatorship.

[Arch Stanton]

I can think of three reasons:

1 The UK economy is five times bigger than the Norwegian one.
2 Norway has a trade surplus with the EU, we have a significant deficit, therefore German CBI – among others – are on the phone.
4 Current threats may chasten some other rebellious states, however it is also very bad PR for an entity that brands itself democratic yet is increasingly seen as dictatorial.

And where else exactly are we going to get our stuff?

[--------]

UK: We want out but we want all the good stuff we got when we were in and no bad stuff.

EU: No

Hardly a dictatorship.


No dictatorship - we were members of the EU on the same terms as anyone else.

The other members of the EU aren't responsible for the mess we've got ourselves into - the fault lies with the people who advocated and voted to leave.

Did they really think France and Germany and the others would come crying after us t persuade us to stay?

This country is in a crisis - a serious one - and the blame for that crisis lies with Johnson and Farage and Gove and the rest of the Britain First crowd and the people who listened to them.

[Hibbyradge]

There is a possibility that we might be able to negotiate a similar deal as to the one the EEA countries or Switzerland have.

That would give us access to the European market, which is obviously vital.

As far as I can work out, in return we would accept the free movement of labour, we would pay an amount similar to what we already pay (which is much, much less than the £350m pw lie), we would be obliged to accept EU legislation, and we would lose our veto.

All this turmoil, fear and anger for what? :crazy:

[mmmmhibby]

Jean Claude Juncker, the absolute nobody who's nothing more than an auld drunk, is the long lost brother of Sepp Blatter.

[Hibbyradge]

Ad hominem.

Exactly the type of "campaigning" we saw throughout the Leave campaign.

When you're losing an argument, or when you don't have one in the first place, play the man not the ball.

[Arch Stanton]

There is a possibility that we might be able to negotiate a similar deal as to the one the EEA countries or Switzerland have.

That would give us access to the European market, which is obviously vital.

As far as I can work out, in return we would accept the free movement of labour, we would pay an amount similar to what we already pay (which is much, much less than the £350m pw lie), we would be obliged to accept EU legislation, and we would lose our veto.

All this turmoil, fear and anger for what? :crazy:

There's a notion going round that they won't impose tariffs on UK because of the effect it would have on German car exporting.

Makes sense. The member states wouldn't like anything bad to happen to German manufacturing, would they? :agree:

[JeMeSouviens]

There's a notion going round that they won't impose tariffs on UK because of the effect it would have on German car exporting.

Makes sense. The member states wouldn't like anything bad to happen to German manufacturing, would they? :agree:

The EEA/Swiss option is only available if the UK accepts freedom of movement of people (along with goods, capital and services).

Merkel has already made it clear this is non-negotiable:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/angela-merkel-warns-uk-it-cant-have-access-to-single-market-without-freedom-of-movement-a7107071.html

The first serious contender for the Tory leadership, Stephen Crabb, has made it clear that if he wins there is no rowing back on Brexit (he was a Remainer) and that freedom of movement is "a red line".

I think this might well back the favourites (Boris or Theresa May) into a corner from which they will have to make a similar promise.

In short, a UK with full, free access to the single market is not looking likely atm.


Interestingly, Boris' economic adviser, Patrick Minford, has proposed that the UK should adopt "unilateral free trade" (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jun/02/economists-brexit-eu-referendum-leave-recession-predictions-imf-treasury), ie. not impose any import tariffs even if UK exports are subject to them.


Minford said that instead of trying to negotiate access to the Euroepan single market, a post-Brexit Britain should opt to remove all barriers to imports.

So a Scotland in the EU would be in the enviable position of having free access to both the EU single market and the UK. Kerching! :aok:

[High-On-Hibs]

The only way the Conservatives can at least try and soften the damage to the economy is to opt to remain in the single market. The only way they can do that is by accepted the free movement of Labour. But if they accept the free movement of Labour, they will no doubt be over thrown by UKIP in the next election.

So do they protect the economy or do they protect themselves? My money is on them covering their own erses while the economy falls to pieces.

[Arch Stanton]

The EEA/Swiss option is only available if the UK accepts freedom of movement of people (along with goods, capital and services).

Merkel has already made it clear this is non-negotiable:


...........................

But surely this is a minimum requirement. It hardly represents any kind of disincentive for other countries to leave does it?

I mean, 'freedom of labour' would hardly be a big sticking point for other countries that wanted to up sticks and leave, would it?

While Merkel would be happy to leave it at that for the sake of Germany's economy it needs agreement with all the member states. I'm sure there are plenty across there will be out for revenge, i.e. 'no entry to single market at any price'.

Just a thought.

[SHODAN]

Assuming the worst happens and Scotland is forced to soldier on in a post-Brexit wasteland, freedom of movement is the one sticking point for me. If there's no free movement of labour, I will absolutely be out the country. Already in discussions about getting a Polish passport and then it's bye bye reactionary UK.

[Hibbyradge]

Assuming the worst happens and Scotland is forced to soldier on in a post-Brexit wasteland, freedom of movement is the one sticking point for me. If there's no free movement of labour, I will absolutely be out the country. Already in discussions about getting a Polish passport and then it's bye bye reactionary UK.

How could you do that?

Do you live in Poland and/or speak Polish?

I thought those were among the prerequisites.

[Hibrandenburg]

Assuming the worst happens and Scotland is forced to soldier on in a post-Brexit wasteland, freedom of movement is the one sticking point for me. If there's no free movement of labour, I will absolutely be out the country. Already in discussions about getting a Polish passport and then it's bye bye reactionary UK.

:agree:

Pretty much the same as me. I see a passport as a tool and nothing more and at the moment a German passport is looking far better than the UK one.

[Rasta_Hibs]

UK: We want out but we want all the good stuff we got when we were in and no bad stuff.

EU: No

Hardly a dictatorship.

I meant the EU saying that we should leave now and trying to dictate to us on that matter. In a wider sense I think it could argued that the EU is a dictatorship with the unelected European commission dictating policy and the EU supreme court can over ride any of the other nations courts within the EU.

[CropleyWasGod]

I meant the EU saying that we should leave now and trying to dictate to us on that matter. In a wider sense I think it could argued that the EU is a dictatorship with the unelected European commission dictating policy and the EU supreme court can over ride any of the other nations courts within the EU.
If there are two people in a relationship, and one tells the other that they don't want to be in that relationship, it's hardly dictatorial for the other to say "beat it then, and quickly ".

And the ECJ...evidence of a dictatorship? [emoji15]

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Rasta_Hibs]

If there are two people in a relationship, and one tells the other that they don't want to be in that relationship, it's hardly dictatorial for the other to say "beat it then, and quickly ".

And the ECJ...evidence of a dictatorship? [emoji15]

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Can it dictate to our courts?

[CropleyWasGod]

Can it dictate to our courts?
It's part of our...our..legal system. That means that it can uphold and overrule decisions made by UK Courts. That's not dictatorial in my book; it's part of the justice system.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[High-On-Hibs]

It's part of our...our..legal system. That means that it can uphold and overrule decisions made by UK Courts. That's not dictatorial in my book; it's part of the justice system.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Exactly. Our courts dictate over us! It's an outrage I say! How dare they! :grr:

[Rasta_Hibs]

It's part of our...our..legal system. That means that it can uphold and overrule decisions made by UK Courts. That's not dictatorial in my book; it's part of the justice system.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Is this separate from the European Supreme Court or the same?

[steakbake]

How could you do that?

Do you live in Poland and/or speak Polish?

I thought those were among the prerequisites.

If you are married to a Polish person, register yourself as living at a one of their relative's houses.

It's 2 years if you live in Poland.

It's 3 years if you do not but maintain the marriage.

That's where I'm at.

[Hibbyradge]

If you are married to a Polish person, register yourself as living at a one of their relative's houses.

It's 2 years if you live in Poland.

It's 3 years if you do not but maintain the marriage.

That's where I'm at.

None of the above. :boo hoo:

[CropleyWasGod]

Is this separate from the European Supreme Court or the same?
Aren't you confusing the UK Supreme Court with the European Court of Justice?

Don't think there is a European Supreme Court.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[lyonhibs]

The only way the Conservatives can at least try and soften the damage to the economy is to opt to remain in the single market. The only way they can do that is by accepted the free movement of Labour. But if they accept the free movement of Labour, they will no doubt be over thrown by UKIP in the next election.

So do they protect the economy or do they protect themselves? My money is on them covering their own erses while the economy falls to pieces.

"No doubt be overthrown by UKIP"??!?!?

Easy now......

[mmmmhibby]

Assuming the worst happens and Scotland is forced to soldier on in a post-Brexit wasteland, freedom of movement is the one sticking point for me. If there's no free movement of labour, I will absolutely be out the country. Already in discussions about getting a Polish passport and then it's bye bye reactionary UK.

Why? Is it a job related decision?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Why? Is it a job related decision?

Post brexit wasteland? Jeezo, its not mad max.

[SHODAN]

How could you do that?

Do you live in Poland and/or speak Polish?

I thought those were among the prerequisites.

My grandfather was Polish, and the citizenship was automatically passed down.

No doubt this makes me a "third-generation immigrant" or some nonsense according to the Express.

[SHODAN]

Why? Is it a job related decision?

My partner is an EU citizen and my sector is going to by hit hard by Brexit. We've both thought about moving elsewhere for better quality of life and the decision is less clear cut now.

Plus, I don't want to raise my children in a country where migrants are treated as second-class citizens.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

My partner is an EU citizen and my sector is going to by hit hard by Brexit. We've both thought about moving elsewhere for better quality of life and the decision is less clear cut now.

Plus, I don't want to raise my children in a country where migrants are treated as second-class citizens.

Do you really believe the below bit will be the case? Controlling numbers is surely not the same as being treated as a second class citizen?

[SHODAN]

Do you really believe the below bit will be the case? Controlling numbers is surely not the same as being treated as a second class citizen?

A number of people voted for Brexit purely out of misguided xenophobia and whilst I don't think controlled immigration is necessarily a bad thing if done correctly, it's a massive red herring (in regards to the actual effects on unemployment/the economy) and the UK government is one of the most hostile towards immigrants in Europe, even before we left. Attitudes towards immigrants in this country are partially fueled by Tory/Labour rhetoric and after an EU exit I can only see this increasing.

You only have to look to the attacks down south to see what has been unleashed. I don't want to be part of that.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

A number of people voted for Brexit purely out of misguided xenophobia and whilst I don't think controlled immigration is necessarily a bad thing if done correctly, it's a massive red herring (in regards to the actual effects on unemployment/the economy) and the UK government is one of the most hostile towards immigrants in Europe, even before we left. Attitudes towards immigrants in this country are partially fueled by Tory/Labour rhetoric and after an EU exit I can only see this increasing.

You only have to look to the attacks down south to see what has been unleashed. I don't want to be part of that.


Fair enough, i think thats a very pessimistic reading of the situation

[Moulin Yarns]

A number of people voted for Brexit purely out of misguided xenophobia and whilst I don't think controlled immigration is necessarily a bad thing if done correctly, it's a massive red herring (in regards to the actual effects on unemployment/the economy) and the UK government is one of the most hostile towards immigrants in Europe, even before we left. Attitudes towards immigrants in this country are partially fueled by Tory/Labour rhetoric and after an EU exit I can only see this increasing.

You only have to look to the attacks down south to see what has been unleashed. I don't want to be part of that.

Unfortunately the hate crimes are also occurring north of the border. My wife was tweeted about this at the weekend by a friend in Rutherglen who had seen it.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14584289.Nazi_stickers_with_racist_and_homophobic_ messages_found_in_Glasgow_following_EU_referendum/?ref=mr&lp=19

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Unfortunately the hate crimes are also occurring north of the border. My wife was tweeted about this at the weekend by a friend in Rutherglen who had seen it.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/14584289.Nazi_stickers_with_racist_and_homophobic_ messages_found_in_Glasgow_following_EU_referendum/?ref=mr&lp=19

Not in salt of the earth, universalist, friendly, bantering, whas like us glasgow, the friendly city? I just dont believe it.

[High-On-Hibs]

"No doubt be overthrown by UKIP"??!?!?

Easy now......

Convince yourself it won't happen all you want. But the reality is that a huge chunk of leave voters did so on the premise that they would gain back control of the borders (more people than the leave campaign like to kid on). But as you already know, you can't have access to the single market without the free movement of labour. So either way, the Conservatives are donald ducked. Either they stop the free movement of Labour and send the economy into deep permanent recession, or they save the economy angering millions upon millions of people who want to see the end of free movement.

It's really not anywhere near as far fetched as you seem to think.

[mmmmhibby]

Convince yourself it won't happen all you want. But the reality is that a huge chunk of leave voters did so on the premise that they would gain back control of the borders (more people than the leave campaign like to kid on). But as you already know, you can't have access to the single market without the free movement of labour. So either way, the Conservatives are donald ducked. Either they stop the free movement of Labour and send the economy into deep permanent recession, or they save the economy angering millions upon millions of people who want to see the end of free movement.

It's really not anywhere near as far fetched as you seem to think.

On the flip side of that we can set up FTA with the rest of the world, plus Merkel will have to cut a deal as her finance minister said today, as German exports to UK sustain 750,000 jobs, the automobile industry being the clincher. IMO, probably an associate-trading deal of some sort. That's just my opinion of what may happen likesy.

[Kavinho]

On the flip side of that we can set up FTA with the rest of the world, plus Merkel will have to cut a deal as her finance minister said today, as German exports to UK sustain 750,000 jobs, the automobile industry being the clincher. IMO, probably an associate-trading deal of some sort. That's just my opinion of what may happen likesy.


Who's leading the negotiations for your rest of the world XI?

The main issue isn't taxes that may or may not be imposed, it's as likely to be compliance with the importing countries regulations.

For eg, the imaginary electrical product that you wish to sell must be connected to a 110v power supply for the US, must be packaged with the labelling in Spanish for the Columbian/Argentinian markets, and must have a Japanese manufactured processor chip if it's to be allowed be sold in Japan (in which case forget China)....

each of of those issues are as a result of the importing governments decisions, pretty much regardless of having a free trade agreement or not.


the Single Market in Europe is the most advanced agreement in the world (by miles/km!). It has developed to take a huge amount of those kind of issues out of the equation.

Thats the rub..

over time, it'll simply be more costly than it currently is to continue to produce and export the current levels.

[mmmmhibby]

Who's leading the negotiations for your rest of the world XI?

The main issue isn't taxes that may or may not be imposed, it's as likely to be compliance with the importing countries regulations.

For eg, the imaginary electrical product that you wish to sell must be connected to a 110v power supply for the US, must be packaged with the labelling in Spanish for the Columbian/Argentinian markets, and must have a Japanese manufactured processor chip if it's to be allowed be sold in Japan (in which case forget China)....

each of of those issues are as a result of the importing governments decisions, pretty much regardless of having a free trade agreement or not.


the Single Market in Europe is the most advanced agreement in the world (by miles/km!). It has developed to take a huge amount of those kind of issues out of the equation.

Thats the rub..

over time, it'll simply be more costly than it currently is to continue to produce and export the current levels.

Once the shenanigans with the next PM is sorted a negotiating team(s) will be set up post article 50 being triggered. Do you think otherwise?

[High-On-Hibs]

Once the shenanigans with the next PM is sorted a negotiating team(s) will be set up post article 50 being triggered. Do you think otherwise?

Whatever trade deal is struck is going to be worse than what we already had. The UK Government wants full access to the single market while taking control over immigration. It's fantasy if they think that's actually going to happen. The leave campaign kept going on about "red tape". Well they've just replaced it with bricks.

[Kavinho]

Once the shenanigans with the next PM is sorted a negotiating team(s) will be set up post article 50 being triggered. Do you think otherwise?


No. But my point was whos going to be on the opposite side of the table. :wink:

[mmmmhibby]

No. But my point was whos going to be on the opposite side of the table. :wink:

The EU shall have to step aside when negotiations start, I think Germany will take the lead. Its in there interests plus Merkel is under increasing pressure to deal with Juncker. Globally, I'd think specific countries will have trade negotiation experts who would engage with the UK on trade matters. I don't envisage trade deals should take long either, UK is a huge consumer market.

[Kavinho]

The EU shall have to step aside when negotiations start, I think Germany will take the lead. Its in there interests plus Merkel is under increasing pressure to deal with Juncker. Globally, I'd think specific countries will have trade negotiation experts who would engage with the UK on trade matters. I don't envisage trade deals should take long either, UK is a huge consumer market.


I clearly haven't been very clear initially. Apologies

You were saying we'll just set up agreements with the rest of the world.
My post was to highlight that its pretty complex.

There isn't anyone to represent the rest of the world singularly, so hundreds of different negotiations are needed. I don't think the administration has the capacity to manage that, and a possible GE, and a possible Scottish referendum, whilst also working out how to decouple UK &EU law.

Over and above that, the main point I was making was actually that it isnt tarriff barriers that are the biggest issue as I see it.

Any who, Im being devils advocate on this point, nothing more.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

The EU shall have to step aside when negotiations start, I think Germany will take the lead. Its in there interests plus Merkel is under increasing pressure to deal with Juncker. Globally, I'd think specific countries will have trade negotiation experts who would engage with the UK on trade matters. I don't envisage trade deals should take long either, UK is a huge consumer market.

Also, i would imagine a lot of the deals will be a case of transposing arrangements that already exist.

Will be interesting to see - if germany slaps down the eurocrats and member states take the lead, or whether they let the institutions lead the way.