Corbyn and Brexit - Who Would've Known?

[Hibbyradge]

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_576eb1b5e4b0d2571149bb1f

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[Vault Boy]

I'll be very transparent and say I am quite the suppoter of Jeremy Corbyn. IMO he's the strongest opponent to austerity/Tory Britain Labour has seen in decades and someone who reinvigorated socialists in Britain - young and old, as well as regaining some of the support of the unions. It's unlike a politician to have such candor, be so principled and frankly appear so human.

I'm very disappointed in the party atm, the Labour party members voted for Corbyn in record numbers yet his fellow MPs simply can't wait to get shot of him, they've been waiting for an opportunistic coup, now they have it. It's frustrating to see the desires of Labour's own members (who increased incredibly with Corbyn's victory to the leadership) so easily batted away by the Blairites in the party. Perhaps that's an exaggeration on my part, made in anger, but honestly that's what it feels like.

At a time where the party should have been uniting, supporting their leader against the media onslaught, and making themselves as electable as possible, they yet again schism and devolve into infighting. Slimy.

[Hibbyradge]

How can people rally behind a man whose actions, or in this case non action, has helped the racists and the right wing to destroy our relationship with Europe and the rest of the world.

I listened to his words on the odd occasions he spoke and was baffled by his less than enthusiastic tone. Now I understand.

Treachery, betrayal and deceit of the worst kind.

I'm seriously considering joining the Labour Party again to work against this useless dinosaur.

[High-On-Hibs]

They're blaming Corbyn for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. When it's clearly far more likely that they deliberately didn't do enough themselves, because they knew they could use the situation to try and out Corbyn.

There are some mental right wing nutters within the Labour Party who are determined to sabotage Labour and keep the Conservatives in power as long as possible, until they consider Labour to be right wing enough to take their place.

[High-On-Hibs]

How can people rally behind a man whose actions, or in this case non action, has helped the racists and the right wing to destroy our relationship with Europe and the rest of the world.

I listened to his words on the odd occasions he spoke and was baffled by his less than enthusiastic tone. Now I understand.

Treachery, betrayal and deceit of the worst kind.

I'm seriously considering joining the Labour Party again to work against this useless dinosaur.

Those who want to give him the boot so badly. What did they do to try and prevent this situation from occurring? Absolutely nothing, because they wanted this kind of siltation to unfold. Even at the expense of the UKs place in the European Union.

By all means, join the Labour Party to try and get rid of him, but you'll lose.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I'll be very transparent and say I am quite the suppoter of Jeremy Corbyn. IMO he's the strongest opponent to austerity/Tory Britain Labour has seen in decades and someone who reinvigorated socialists in Britain - young and old, as well as regaining some of the support of the unions. It's unlike a politician to have such candor, be so principled and frankly appear so human.

I'm very disappointed in the party atm, the Labour party members voted for Corbyn in record numbers yet his fellow MPs simply can't wait to get shot of him, they've been waiting for an opportunistic coup, now they have it. It's frustrating to see the desires of Labour's own members (who increased incredibly with Corbyn's victory to the leadership) so easily batted away by the Blairites in the party. Perhaps that's an exaggeration on my part, made in anger, but honestly that's what it feels like.

At a time where the party should have been uniting, supporting their leader against the media onslaught, and making themselves as electable as possible, they yet again schism and devolve into infighting. Slimy.

Good post. I'll be transparent and say it's unlikely I'd ever vote for Corbyn but I do agree with some of what you say.

When elected, I thought Corbyn had more integrity than any leader the Labour Party has had since Kinnock. Tony Blair was pretty much a Tory and his dodgy dossier will go down as one of the biggest lies in uk political history. Ed Milliband was another toff who could only regurgitate arguments he heard at a university debating club and say what his like-minded focus groups tell him to. Corbyn seemed to say what he actually believes and his policies we materially different to the other parties, which I like.

That being said, his performance in the referendum was poor. If he didn't want to remain then he should have just said so. I didn't believe he really meant what he said, which goes against the reasons I mentioned for liking him in the first place.

Out of interest, and not looking for an argument as wouldn't claim to know much about those in the Labour Party, but do you believe Corbyn was genuinely for remaining in the EU?

[Pretty Boy]

Those who want to give him the boot so badly. What did they do to try and prevent this situation from occurring? Absolutely nothing, because they wanted this kind of siltation to unfold. Even at the expense of the UKs place in the European Union.

By all means, join the Labour Party to try and get rid of him, but you'll lose.

Those who want rid of Corbyn may lose in the short term. In the medium to longer term they will 'win' as the man is completely unelectable.

The problem the left of the party have, parliamentary and wider, is they are putting their faith in a man who is unelectable and has thus far shown absolutely no ability to lead. When the inevitable happens and Labour lose a general election badly under Corbyn those with 'right wing' tendencies within Labour will be able to point to the Corbyn experiment as proof that 'socialism' is dead. He will be the knock out blow for the left of the Labour Party.

[Vault Boy]

Good post. I'll be transparent and say it's unlikely I'd ever vote for Corbyn but I do agree with some of what you say.

When elected, I thought Corbyn had more integrity than any leader the Labour Party has had since Kinnock. Tony Blair was pretty much a Tory and his dodgy dossier will go down as one of the biggest lies in uk political history. Ed Milliband was another toff who could only regurgitate arguments he heard at a university debating club and say what his like-minded focus groups tell him to. Corbyn seemed to say what he actually believes and his policies we materially different to the other parties, which I like.

That being said, his performance in the referendum was poor. If he didn't want to remain then he should have just said so. I didn't believe he really meant what he said, which goes against the reasons I mentioned for liking him in the first place.

Out of interest, and not looking for an argument as wouldn't claim to know much about those in the Labour Party, but do you believe Corbyn was genuinely for remaining in the EU?

Firstly, thanks for the comments. :aok:

To answer your question - As far as I'm concerned and aware, Corbyn found the inner-workings of the EU to be hugely problematic, the structure to be largely undemocratic and the market to be overly favourable for the already wealthy, but despite this, felt it was in Britain's best interest to remain in as a major player and push for reform in whatever way possible. I believe him on this because I've been following him ever since his name was mentioned in the leadership election and he has been consistent on his answers. Nothing stops that being scripted, I'm sure, but he's been saying this for over a year now, I tend to believe him.

[Vault Boy]

Those who want rid of Corbyn may lose in the short term. In the medium to longer term they will 'win' as the man is completely unelectable.

The problem the left of the party have, parliamentary and wider, is they are putting their faith in a man who is unelectable and has thus far shown absolutely no ability to lead. When the inevitable happens and Labour lose a general election badly under Corbyn those with 'right wing' tendencies within Labour will be able to point to the Corbyn experiment as proof that 'socialism' is dead. He will be the knock out blow for the left of the Labour Party.

Unfortunately it is very, very hard to disagree with you. I do however wonder what would have happened if a rejuvenated Labour, fresh with many new and returning members following the initial leadership victory, had fully backed their leader in all facets of the media and took the opportunity to unite & progress rather than regress and implode. Nothing more than a pipe dream honestly. I guess more than a small part of me hoped that Corbyn's victory spelled the rebirth of socialism in Britain, a philosophy that ultimately built the nation. Wasn't to be. Ah well, bring on the next wind-cock Blairite.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Firstly, thanks for the comments. :aok:

To answer your question - As far as I'm concerned and aware, Corbyn found the inner-workings of the EU to be hugely problematic, the structure to be largely undemocratic and the market to be overly favourable for the already wealthy, but despite this, felt it was in Britain's best interest to remain in as a major player and push for reform in whatever way possible. I believe him on this because I've been following him ever since his name was mentioned in the leadership election and he has been consistent on his answers. Nothing stops that being scripted, I'm sure, but he's been saying this for over a year now, I tend to believe him.

Interesting. I suspect your right and perhaps my scepticism was based on selective media coverage and some of the media having it in for him. I do think some of the press he gets is unfair and I like that he isn't 'polished'. I think Corbyn would win another leadership vote but its so difficult to predict anything at the moment.

[Hibbyradge]

They're blaming Corbyn for not campaigning hard enough for a remain vote. When it's clearly far more likely that they deliberately didn't do enough themselves, because they knew they could use the situation to try and out Corbyn.

There are some mental right wing nutters within the Labour Party who are determined to sabotage Labour and keep the Conservatives in power as long as possible, until they consider Labour to be right wing enough to take their place.

Have you read the article?

Corbyn and his team deliberately ran a low key campaign for ideological reasons.

When Tom Watson tried to calm immigration fears by saying that attempts could be made to change the free movement rules, Corbyn contradicted it immediately.

There is no right wing conspiracy. It's all self inflicted.

The fascists and racists have won and Corbyn and his friends deliberately did as little as they could to stop them.

It'll suit the Trots though. One step closer to the glorious revolution.

[Pretty Boy]

Unfortunately it is very, very hard to disagree with you. I do however wonder what would have happened if a rejuvenated Labour, fresh with many new and returning members following the initial leadership victory, had fully backed their leader in all facets of the media and took the opportunity to unite & progress rather than regress and implode. Nothing more than a pipe dream honestly. I guess more than a small part of me hoped that Corbyn's victory spelled the rebirth of socialism in Britain, a philosophy that ultimately built the nation. Wasn't to be. Ah well, bring on the next wind-cock Blairite.
I don't think anyone could argue that the actions of many within the PLP have been disgraceful. It's self defeating as well because it leaves the 'what if' questions and is also playing a large part in galvanising support for Corbyn amongst the grassroots party, I wouldn't bet against him winning another leadership election if he stands.

As someone who generally has views that are to the left of the spectrum I don't take a lot of pleasure from his situation but the sad truth is that people like Corbyn and the views he holds don't win elections. Labour are no use to anybody in perpetual oppostion and the challenge for whoever comes next is balancing being electable without totally losing sight of who they are.

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[Hibbyradge]

Those who want to give him the boot so badly. What did they do to try and prevent this situation from occurring? Absolutely nothing, because they wanted this kind of siltation to unfold. Even at the expense of the UKs place in the European Union.

By all means, join the Labour Party to try and get rid of him, but you'll lose.

You're right, I'd probably lose, but at least I'd be doing my best, unlike Corbyn in the EU debate.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't think anyone could argue that the actions of many within the PLP have been disgraceful. It's self defeating as well because it leaves the 'what if' questions and is also playing a large part in galvanising support for Corbyn amongst the grassroots party, I wouldn't bet against him winning another leadership election if he stands.

As someone who generally has views that are to the left of the spectrum I don't take a lot of pleasure from his situation but the sad truth is that people like Corbyn and the views he holds don't win elections. Labour are no use to anybody in perpetual oppostion and the challenge for whoever comes next is balancing being electable without totally losing sight of who they are.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Exactly my thinking.

You just say it more calmly!

[Benny Brazil]

At this point in time we need a strong opposition to the Tories - there is a huge opportunity for Labour to pick up the mantle and start to unite the country - but with Corbyn in charge that will never happen.
Corbyn and Labour in their current state are unelectable - at a time that they should really be looking to take advantage of Tory division over the EU. He may have the support of the grassroots Labour members and this will always decide the vote - but his parliamentary party colleagues have no faith in him - he may be a good politician but he is not and never will be a leader.

[Vault Boy]

At this point in time we need a strong opposition to the Tories - there is a huge opportunity for Labour to pick up the mantle and start to unite the country - but with Corbyn in charge that will never happen.
Corbyn and Labour in their current state are unelectable - at a time that they should really be looking to take advantage of Tory division over the EU. He may have the support of the grassroots Labour members and this will always decide the vote - but his parliamentary party colleagues have no faith in him - he may be a good politician but he is not and never will be a leader.

Very fair. :agree:

[Hibbyradge]

At this point in time we need a strong opposition to the Tories - there is a huge opportunity for Labour to pick up the mantle and start to unite the country - but with Corbyn in charge that will never happen.
Corbyn and Labour in their current state are unelectable - at a time that they should really be looking to take advantage of Tory division over the EU. He may have the support of the grassroots Labour members and this will always decide the vote - but his parliamentary party colleagues have no faith in him - he may be a good politician but he is not and never will be a leader.

Exactly.

Unfortunately I don't see the Labour Party uniting anytime soon. The shadow cabinet is about to be decimated by resignations after Corbyn sacked Benn last night and I actually think there's more chance of a split with a new party forming, than someone electable replacing Corbyn.

All this at a time when the Tories are themselves, in the midst of their own, albeit slightly quieter, civil war.

What a disaster. Get your cash on Johnson to be next PM with a snap election called at the Tory Party conference.

[Benny Brazil]

Just a thought - not sure if this is possible - could Scottish Labour split off from the main party and become a seperate entity?
It might benefit Kezia and co to explore this in the longer term for any potential future independent Scotland.

[Hibbyradge]

Out of interest, and not looking for an argument as wouldn't claim to know much about those in the Labour Party, but do you believe Corbyn was genuinely for remaining in the EU?

I also thought that for all his faults, he was honest and a man of integrity, but it seems he too, is capable of duplicitity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-campaigning-for-brexit-if-he-was-not-labour-leader-says-long-time-ally-tariq-a7032736.html

[Pretty Boy]

Just a thought - not sure if this is possible - could Scottish Labour split off from the main party and become a seperate entity?
It might benefit Kezia and co to explore this in the longer term for any potential future independent Scotland.

I've argued this is the way for Scottish Labour to go for quite some time. The Westminster brand is toxic.

[Smartie]

Just a thought - not sure if this is possible - could Scottish Labour split off from the main party and become a seperate entity?
It might benefit Kezia and co to explore this in the longer term for any potential future independent Scotland.

I think there will be a lot of soul-searching going on at the moment.

Many of our Unionist politicians will be trying to decide whether or not they are more loyal to British or European Union.

There is also personal career prospects of the politicians to take into consideration.

It's been interesting hearing Malcom Chisholm, Henry McLeish and Alastair Campbell say what they've been saying over the past few days. I'd be astonished if there aren't many more Scottish Labour politicians who are considering their position.

[Pretty Boy]

I think there will be a lot of soul-searching going on at the moment.

Many of our Unionist politicians will be trying to decide whether or not they are more loyal to British or European Union.

There is also personal career prospects of the politicians to take into consideration.

It's been interesting hearing Malcom Chisholm, Henry McLeish and Alastair Campbell say what they've been saying over the past few days. I'd be astonished if there aren't many more Scottish Labour politicians who are considering their position.

I had a chat with Mark Lazarowicz, a thoroughly decent politician, shortly before the last election. I think deep down he knew he was going to lose and I jokingly said to him that he would always be welcome on the Yes campaign trail. He replied that his core beliefs were rooted in both British and European union.

People like him must have a lot of thinking to do in the coming weeks.

[Betty Boop]

I also thought that for all his faults, he was honest and a man of integrity, but it seems he too, is capable of duplicitity.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-would-be-campaigning-for-brexit-if-he-was-not-labour-leader-says-long-time-ally-tariq-a7032736.html

I thought you were well aware he was a Euro sceptic.

[Benny Brazil]

Ian Murray now resigns from the Shadow Cabinet

[Hibbyradge]

I thought you were well aware he was a Euro sceptic.

It doesn't it matter what I knew.

I was answering a question, but the truth is, I didn't know for sure.

What I do know is that he deliberately worked to undermine Labour Party policy in a sneaky and duplicitous manner.

He has to go, but unfortunately for the Labour Party and the country, he'll be kept at the helm by the £3 membership.

The Tories who joined up to get him elected knew what they were doing.

We're royally ****ed.

[Hibby Bairn]

Have you read the article?

Corbyn and his team deliberately ran a low key campaign for ideological reasons.

When Tom Watson tried to calm immigration fears by saying that attempts could be made to change the free movement rules, Corbyn contradicted it immediately.

There is no right wing conspiracy. It's all self inflicted.

The fascists and racists have won and Corbyn and his friends deliberately did as little as they could to stop them.

It'll suit the Trots though. One step closer to the glorious revolution.

Nonsense. Do you honestly believe there are 17m fascists and racists in the UK? People voted Leave because they were at their wits end with perceived lack of jobs, opportunity, income etc and needed someone to blame. The EU and Johnny Foreigner seemed a convenient target to voice their discontent. And was led by guys like Johnson, Gove and Farage.

Nobody stood up to this and painted an alternative vision. That should have been Corbyn. What an opportunity for him and Labour. But he chose not to take it. Or wasn't capable enough of taking it.

There is a distinct lack of quality leadership in both Tory and Labour ranks just now. Sturgeon is the only one displaying any where near the traits required.

Corbyn = toon cooncillor...placard waver...happy in opposition. Totally incompetent leader in times of crisis and need.

[Hibbyradge]

Nonsense. Do you honestly believe there are 17m fascists and racists in the UK? People voted Leave because they were at their wits end with perceived lack of jobs, opportunity, income etc and needed someone to blame. The EU and Johnny Foreigner seemed a convenient target to voice their discontent. And was led by guys like Johnson, Gove and Farage.

Nobody stood up to this and painted an alternative vision. That should have been Corbyn. What an opportunity for him and Labour. But he chose not to take it. Or wasn't capable enough of taking it.

There is a distinct lack of quality leadership in both Tory and Labour ranks just now. Sturgeon is the only one displaying any where near the traits required.

Corbyn = toon cooncillor...placard waver...happy in opposition. Totally incompetent leader in times of crisis and need.

Of course I know that everyone who voted Leave isn't a fascist or racist. I was referring to people like Farage, the Bnp, the right wing newspaper owners etc.

Seemingly Marie Le Pen now has the union flag as her avatar.

Corbyn should have fought them with every fibre of his being, but his reluctant approach, instead of galvanising the Labour voters, gave them the impression that it wasn't all that important.

Indeed, his contradiction of Tom Watson regarding immigration will have confirmed some people's fears on the issue.

I'm in agreement with the rest of your post.

[Smartie]

Nonsense. Do you honestly believe there are 17m fascists and racists in the UK? People voted Leave because they were at their wits end with perceived lack of jobs, opportunity, income etc and needed someone to blame. The EU and Johnny Foreigner seemed a convenient target to voice their discontent. And was led by guys like Johnson, Gove and Farage.

Nobody stood up to this and painted an alternative vision. That should have been Corbyn. What an opportunity for him and Labour. But he chose not to take it. Or wasn't capable enough of taking it.

There is a distinct lack of quality leadership in both Tory and Labour ranks just now. Sturgeon is the only one displaying any where near the traits required.

Corbyn = toon cooncillor...placard waver...happy in opposition. Totally incompetent leader in times of crisis and need.

Good post.

One of the most depressing features of the past few days has been the number of times I've found myself in complete agreement with Tories.

[Beefster]

I hoped for big things from Corbyn and McDonnell but they give the distinct whiff of a pair who, despite having wanted the Labour leadership for years, aren't leaders, still practice student politics and don't actually have much of a clue of getting things done now that they're not just a small band of rebels.

If we get the Buffoon and Corbyn manages to keep his job, it must be the worst leadership of the three main UK parties that we've had in a very long time (Farron's useless too). Throw in that gurning twat Farage and it gets worse.

All a bit strange when the main three Scottish leaders are pretty good (the Scottish Lib Dem's poor man's John Major doesn't count).

[BroxburnHibee]

Deputy leader announces his disappointment at the resignations and sacking.

Now 10 resignations. Sounds to me like the Coup D'etat is in full swing.

I expect he'll be gone this evening or early tomorrow.

[Benny Brazil]

Deputy leader announces his disappointment at the resignations and sacking.

Now 10 resignations. Sounds to me like the Coup D'etat is in full swing.

I expect he'll be gone this evening or early tomorrow.

You mean Corbyn or Watson? I dont think Corbyn will resign - I think he will try and see this out.

[BroxburnHibee]

You mean Corbyn or Watson? I dont think Corbyn will resign - I think he will try and see this out.

Corbyn. PLP doing their best to force his hand. I expect more of the cabinet to resign as the night draws on.

This is being co-ordinated IMO.

[lord bunberry]

You mean Corbyn or Watson? I dont think Corbyn will resign - I think he will try and see this out.
There must be a doubt that Corbyn can even get enough numbers together to form a shadow cabinet.

[Benny Brazil]

There must be a doubt that Corbyn can even get enough numbers together to form a shadow cabinet.

I suppose it depends on how much support he has in the back benches or if as BH is saying this is being co-ordinated and all the PLP have decided enough is enough.

[hibsbollah]

Deputy leader announces his disappointment at the resignations and sacking.

Now 10 resignations. Sounds to me like the Coup D'etat is in full swing.

I expect he'll be gone this evening or early tomorrow.

He'll be gone when and if the membership decides. That's the way the Labour Party has always behaved, democratically. All the rest is foam whipped up by a rabid media that some who know better are swallowing. I just hope more Blairrite MPs resign so the purge process can be speeded up.

The 'electability' question. Corbyn led the party to 31% in he only election test he's had so far at the last local elections, the UKs biggest party, a better performance than Brown, Cameron Blair got after they were appointed. No one is 'unelectable' and things can change very quickly in politics.

[BroxburnHibee]

He'll be gone when and if the membership decides. That's the way the Labour Party has always behaved, democratically. All the rest is foam whipped up by a rabid media that some who know better are swallowing. I just hope more Blairrite MPs resign so the purge process can be speeded up.

The 'electability' question. Corbyn led the party to 31% in he only election test he's had so far at the last local elections, the UKs biggest party, a better performance than Brown, Cameron Blair got after they were appointed. No one is 'unelectable' and things can change very quickly in politics.

We'll see. Personally I think he's this generations Michael Foot. No chance of ever winning a general election.

I think the PLP are thinking there may be a GE within a year and know its a winnable one with someone else in charge.

[matty_f]

Corbyn's trouble is that he has no leadership qualities and appears to have a real problem with compromise. A leader needs a bit of pragmatism and I don't think he is strong in that area.

I like that he is principled and hoped a Labour with more of its core socialist values at the forefront of the party might see a shift in the increasingly right of centre politics we've had since Blair, but he isn't the answer.

The whole set up is a shambles, we're potentially heading out of the EU on the back of a referendum that would never have happened if it wasn't for a bunch of Eton ****ers having a 'who can piss the highest' contest.

The problem with politics in this country (UK) is that the vast majority of politicians are utter ****s.

[hibsbollah]

We'll see. Personally I think he's this generations Michael Foot. No chance of ever winning a general election.

I think the PLP are thinking there may be a GE within a year and know its a winnable one with someone else in charge.

In which case, the rebellious members of the PLP need to man up, unite behind an alternative candidate and put it to the membership.

[RyeSloan]

Corbyn's trouble is that he has no leadership qualities and appears to have a real problem with compromise. A leader needs a bit of pragmatism and I don't think he is strong in that area. I like that he is principled and hoped a Labour with more of its core socialist values at the forefront of the party might see a shift in the increasingly right of centre politics we've had since Blair, but he isn't the answer. The whole set up is a shambles, we're potentially heading out of the EU on the back of a referendum that would never have happened if it wasn't for a bunch of Eton ****ers having a 'who can piss the highest' contest. The problem with politics in this country (UK) is that the vast majority of politicians are utter ****s.

No we had a referendum because it was a manifesto promise in the party that gained a majority in the last General Election.

Seems a common narrative this it was only Tory's playing politics that made this happen, almost as common as bigots and racists carried the day for leave.

Seems a lot of people won't or can't understand that there was widespread discontent with how far and deep the EU had taken itself into the realms of national governments and how much further the intention of every increasing union would go.

[matty_f]

No we had a referendum because it was a manifesto promise in the party that gained a majority in the last General Election.

Seems a common narrative this it was only Tory's playing politics that made this happen, almost as common as bigots and racists carried the day for leave.

Seems a lot of people won't or can't understand that there was widespread discontent with how far and deep the EU had taken itself into the realms of national governments and how much further the intention of every increasing union would go.

Cameron had it in the manifesto to calm in-fighting. He gambled on being the one who could piss the highest and ended up holding his wildly while Boris and Gove showered him in theirs.

Meanwhile the rest of us have to face up to the consequences.

I understand perfectly well that people were/are unhappy with the EU, thank you.

[RyeSloan]

Cameron had it in the manifesto to calm in-fighting. He gambled on being the one who could piss the highest and ended up holding his wildly while Boris and Gove showered him in theirs. Meanwhile the rest of us have to face up to the consequences. I understand perfectly well that people were/are unhappy with the EU, thank you.

Oh no doubting it was there for a number of reasons and no doubting he thought he could win....but it was clearly a popular policy that many people voted for in enough numbers to return the Conservatives to power so that it would happen. To paint it as simply a result of a Tory pissing contest gone wrong is ignoring these facts and that 17m people voted to leave.

[matty_f]

Oh no doubting it was there for a number of reasons and no doubting he thought he could win....but it was clearly a popular policy that many people voted for in enough numbers to return the Conservatives to power so that it would happen. To paint it as simply a result of a Tory pissing contest gone wrong is ignoring these facts and that 17m people voted to leave.

The Tories weren't voted in on the back of the Euro referendum promise, IMHO. With Labour a shambles and the Lib Dems holding no credibility, the Tories were practically the only show in town.

I haven't questioned the result of passed comment on its validity, but there should never have been a referendum IMHO. It was only in the manifesto to appease a section of the Tory party and was only agreed to because Cameron thought he had no chance of losing.

I think you're mis-interpreting my point, evidently there is a strong feeling against the EU from a significant population of the country, it should never have got this far though.

Edit: appreciate that this is taking the Corbyn thread off-topic and is likely being discussed elsewhere.

[Hibbyradge]

Oh no doubting it was there for a number of reasons and no doubting he thought he could win....but it was clearly a popular policy that many people voted for in enough numbers to return the Conservatives to power so that it would happen. To paint it as simply a result of a Tory pissing contest gone wrong is ignoring these facts and that 17m people voted to leave.

I don't remember the Tories using the promise of an in/out referendum as a major campaigning platform.

If it had not been in their manifesto, they would have received the same number of votes.

It was a device to shoot the UKIP fox and satisfy Tory eurosceptics.

[Hibbyradge]

The Tories weren't voted in on the back of the Euro referendum promise, IMHO. With Labour a shambles and the Lib Dems holding no credibility, the Tories were practically the only show in town.

I haven't questioned the result of passed comment on its validity, but there should never have been a referendum IMHO. It was only in the manifesto to appease a section of the Tory party and was only agreed to because Cameron thought he had no chance of losing.

I think you're mis-interpreting my point, evidently there is a strong feeling against the EU from a significant population of the country, it should never have got this far though.

Edit: appreciate that this is taking the Corbyn thread off-topic and is likely being discussed elsewhere.

Indeed.

[Colr]

There must be a doubt that Corbyn can even get enough numbers together to form a shadow cabinet.

He struggled to get enough nominations to compete for leader, he struggled to get people to join his cabinet together. Can see him appointed non-MP cabinet members.

[Colr]

11 out of the shadow cabinet now.

4 more and that's half the shadow cabinet.

[RyeSloan]

I don't remember the Tories using the promise of an in/out referendum as a major campaigning platform. If it had not been in their manifesto, they would have received the same number of votes. It was a device to shoot the UKIP fox and satisfy Tory eurosceptics.

Objection! Pure supposition your honour!!

You have no idea how many votes that manifesto pledge resulted in.

I think my point here is that there was Tory euro sceptics to satisfy and a UKIP fox to be shot due to the fact that there was a large number of people in the UK concerned about where the EU was headed and how much power it had garnered without the people of the U.K. having had a direct vote on it since the 70's. The sceptics and UKIP didn't exist in mere isolation, they were a reflection of people's concerns on the EU.

Of course I recognise your and Matty's points, there was a large political aspect to all of this as well but hey that politics for you ;-)

[Colr]

11 out of the shadow cabinet now.

4 more and that's half the shadow cabinet.

Chris Bryant gone. That's 12 out.