Can Europe change?

[HappyAsHellas]

Given the unexpected result of the Brexit vote, will, or can the European leaders get their act together and do something positive that will truly put forward what the union should be all about, or will the unelected presidents just have another meeting. This changes the political landscape of Europe significantly and I wonder if it could be the catalyst that Europe has been crying out for. Today Tsipras said :

“The outcome of the referendum should act as a wakeup call for the sleepwalker who is heading for the abyss,”

Will it spur the change many see as necessary, or will the EU continue to stagger from crisis to crisis with no answers.

[High-On-Hibs]

What do you consider to be the issues with the EU? All the issues about the EU that i've heard of so far have been complete fabrications.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

What do you consider to be the issues with the EU? All the issues about the EU that i've heard of so far have been complete fabrications.

Personally, I think the main issue is how much the EU has changed since it was formed and the majority of people seem to agree that the initial economic union was a good thing.

There have been significant changes since then which the public weren't consulted about. Far bigger than some of the changes that we vote on in general elections. Whether you agree with the changes or not, this was undemocratic and people are rightly annoyed and concerned at what could be enforced in the future.

I think if the EU went back to something similar to what it was in the first place, and they kept it that way, everyone would be comfortable with it. The people that voted Brexit weren't against everything the EU have done and a scaled back version would work if such a thing was possible.

[High-On-Hibs]

Personally, I think the main issue is how much the EU has changed since it was formed and the majority of people seem to agree that the initial economic union was a good thing.

There have been significant changes since then which the public weren't consulted about. Far bigger than some of the changes that we vote on in general elections. Whether you agree with the changes or not, this was undemocratic and people are rightly annoyed and concerned at what could be enforced in the future.

I think if the EU went back to something similar to what it was in the first place, and they kept it that way, everyone would be comfortable with it. The people that voted Brexit weren't against everything the EU have done and a scaled back version would work if such a thing was possible.

I'm sorry. But you say "changes". What changes are you referring to? What changes have occurred in the UK as a result of the European Union that the UK Government didn't sign up to?

[HappyAsHellas]

What do you consider to be the issues with the EU? All the issues about the EU that i've heard of so far have been complete fabrications.

Recently, the handling of the refugee crisis and of course the economic crisis spring to mind immediately. Neither have yet been resolved with other member states having referenda on refugee numbers etc. The EU has over expanded too quickly in my opinion, and trying to marry the financially different countries into a single economy has proven to be disastrous. Then there is the commission and of course the eurogroup, both unelected bodies which I find rather disturbing. I understand the commission is like the civil service with the difference being that our civil service is answerable to a political parties needs, whether the EU version is the other way round, the tail wagging the dog springs to mind.

[Smartie]

As mentioned on the other thread, I don't like the single currency. Good for Germany, bad for everyone else.

I'm not convinced that much can be done about this now though. I was secretly hoping that Greece were going to pull out when it was at its worst a while back - it would have been painful short-term but I think that a lot of those problems would have been weathered by now.

I'm pro-migration and keen on the movement of people - I don't want to see any change there so I fundamentally disagree with most of Farage's arguments.

[High-On-Hibs]

Recently, the handling of the refugee crisis and of course the economic crisis spring to mind immediately. Neither have yet been resolved with other member states having referenda on refugee numbers etc. The EU has over expanded too quickly in my opinion, and trying to marry the financially different countries into a single economy has proven to be disastrous. Then there is the commission and of course the eurogroup, both unelected bodies which I find rather disturbing. I understand the commission is like the civil service with the difference being that our civil service is answerable to a political parties needs, whether the EU version is the other way round, the tail wagging the dog springs to mind.

Although you're correct in your assertion that the EU have attempted to merge the countries into a single economy. They still gave the democratically elected governments of these countries a choice. It's not as if they were ignoring the will of the democratically elected governments. Despite the Brexit campaign attempting to make these claims anyway.

As for refugee numbers. We only accepted the level of refugees from outwith the EU in which the UK Government signed up to. Nothing was forced upon them. They made the choice.

Although I agree with you about the unelected bodies. The issue doesn't end with the EU. We have our own unelected bodies within the UK that scrutinize and have the power to reject policies being implemented by the democratically elected government. Just wait till TTIP kicks into force. Not only will we have unelected bodies that can influence government policy, big business will be able to directly influence it as well through the courts.

[HappyAsHellas]

I doubt and pray that TTIP never comes into force here although I suspect the brexit vote makes it so much harder. I agree with your points about unelected officials here but the greater problem the EU has is a stunning disconnect from all the peoples of Europe. Voting figures from the member states are always low, simply because no one cares. Hopefully this vote will force them to listen to people, but this is something they have resolutely failed to do in the past and I can't see it changing now.

[High-On-Hibs]

I doubt and pray that TTIP never comes into force here although I suspect the brexit vote makes it so much harder. I agree with your points about unelected officials here but the greater problem the EU has is a stunning disconnect from all the peoples of Europe. Voting figures from the member states are always low, simply because no one cares. Hopefully this vote will force them to listen to people, but this is something they have resolutely failed to do in the past and I can't see it changing now.

Sadly, I don't think brexit will soften the case for TTIP at all. The Conservative Party are well and truly in the driving seat and if there is something that the vast majority of them can agree on, it's TTIP. I just hope that Scotland can do enough to disassociate ourselves with the Westminster Establishment before this highly controversial policy comes into force.

[HappyAsHellas]

I think both Trump and Clinton are against TTIP and with brexit it weakens the prospect of having all member states to vote it through. I wouldn't put it past the tories to try and rush it through before they implode but time is not on their side now, so I hope it is dead in the water.

[Sir David Gray]

Personally, I think the main issue is how much the EU has changed since it was formed and the majority of people seem to agree that the initial economic union was a good thing.

There have been significant changes since then which the public weren't consulted about. Far bigger than some of the changes that we vote on in general elections. Whether you agree with the changes or not, this was undemocratic and people are rightly annoyed and concerned at what could be enforced in the future.

I think if the EU went back to something similar to what it was in the first place, and they kept it that way, everyone would be comfortable with it. The people that voted Brexit weren't against everything the EU have done and a scaled back version would work if such a thing was possible.

Spot on. :top marks

[snooky]

Personally, I think the main issue is how much the EU has changed since it was formed and the majority of people seem to agree that the initial economic union was a good thing.

There have been significant changes since then which the public weren't consulted about. Far bigger than some of the changes that we vote on in general elections. Whether you agree with the changes or not, this was undemocratic and people are rightly annoyed and concerned at what could be enforced in the future.

I think if the EU went back to something similar to what it was in the first place, and they kept it that way, everyone would be comfortable with it. The people that voted Brexit weren't against everything the EU have done and a scaled back version would work if such a thing was possible.

This is a very good point. While I'm a 'remain' voter, there's a lot of the EU set up I am not happy with.

[HappyAsHellas]

Personally, I think the main issue is how much the EU has changed since it was formed and the majority of people seem to agree that the initial economic union was a good thing.

There have been significant changes since then which the public weren't consulted about. Far bigger than some of the changes that we vote on in general elections. Whether you agree with the changes or not, this was undemocratic and people are rightly annoyed and concerned at what could be enforced in the future.

I think if the EU went back to something similar to what it was in the first place, and they kept it that way, everyone would be comfortable with it. The people that voted Brexit weren't against everything the EU have done and a scaled back version would work if such a thing was possible.

At the start there was no monetary union, with the Euro we have more political union which is disastrous in my opinion. I can't see them ditching the Euro and therefore they will not change.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Why would they want to change when the 10,000 EU officials get paid more than the Prime Minister of the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

THE gravy train!

[High-On-Hibs]

Surely it's up to all of the member states to make a stand if they're not happy with the current direction being taken? Because at the end of the day, it's the members that ultimately dictate the direction the European Union takes. I just don't think pulling out of the EU is the answer. There is no doubt that we are stronger and more secure in European Unity than we are as separate entities. Countries that break away and want to go on their own will expect to have it all their own way. If every country adopts the same attitude, then we'll all be worse off for it, that I have no doubt.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I think both Trump and Clinton are against TTIP and with brexit it weakens the prospect of having all member states to vote it through. I wouldn't put it past the tories to try and rush it through before they implode but time is not on their side now, so I hope it is dead in the water.

They cant rush TTIP through - its not as simple as that with trade deals.

Why are you guys all so against it?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Surely it's up to all of the member states to make a stand if they're not happy with the current direction being taken? Because at the end of the day, it's the members that ultimately dictate the direction the European Union takes. I just don't think pulling out of the EU is the answer. There is no doubt that we are stronger and more secure in European Unity than we are as separate entities. Countries that break away and want to go on their own will expect to have it all their own way. If every country adopts the same attitude, then we'll all be worse off for it, that I have no doubt.


That's the most reasoned and sensible thing youve said since friday..!!

[RyeSloan]

They cant rush TTIP through - its not as simple as that with trade deals. Why are you guys all so against it?

From what I have seen it boils down to the fact that private companies have the recourse of he courts if they believe governments have made decisions that impact heir business with no 'legitimate' reason.

There is a good example currently with keystone XL...the Us government faffed about for years and years then finally pulled the plug. TransCanada are claiming $8bn in compensation due to their belief that the decision was politically motivated.

Personally I see no problem in governments being held to account for such decisions but I'm sure others see it differently...

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Why would they want to change when the 10,000 EU officials get paid more than the Prime Minister of the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

THE gravy train!

If true, or even 50% true, it is an absolute disgrace.

[PeeJay]

Why would they want to change when the 10,000 EU officials get paid more than the Prime Minister of the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10847979/10000-European-Union-officials-better-paid-than-David-Cameron.html

THE gravy train!

Then again, one could ask why the UK Prime Minister is paid so poorly: the EU is not responsible for that, is it? The PM annual salary is a UK, sovereign, democratic decision. Still, it's not really relevant is it? Lots of people get paid more than Cameron. Anyone wanting to make lots of money doesn't do it by becoming PM of the UK or Chancellor of Germany or President of the USA - everybody knows that - except readers of the Telegraph apparently ... not forgetting your good self, of course :greengrin

[easty]

Then again, one could ask why the UK Prime Minister is paid so poorly: the EU is not responsible for that, is it? The PM annual salary is a UK, sovereign, democratic decision. Still, it's not really relevant is it? Lots of people get paid more than Cameron. Anyone wanting to make lots of money doesn't do it by becoming PM of the UK or Chancellor of Germany or President of the USA - everybody knows that - except readers of the Telegraph apparently ... not forgetting your good self, of course :greengrin

Wish I was paid as poorly as the PM.

[PeeJay]

Wish I was paid as poorly as the PM.

Think the job is on offer at the moment - have a go at applying for it! :greengrin

[High-On-Hibs]

Think the job is on offer at the moment - have a go at applying for it! :greengrin

Just be sure to gel your hair back, talk above your nose and point aggressively at people when you're making your case. You'll be a shoe in!

[easty]

Just be sure to gel your hair back, talk above your nose and point aggressively at people when you're making your case. You'll be a shoe in!

Hair...check
Aggressive pointing...check

Just need to master that talking part and I'm sorted.

[Kavinho]

Wish I was paid as poorly as the PM.


There is a wee bit of apples and pears comparisons in that article..

£142k gross is the fig vs £112k for the quoted pay grade, (not quoting numbers receiving it notably)

Add in Cameron's additional benefits for eggs a 2nd home allowance, remuneration for staying away overnight, not to mention the pension provided after leaving office, and the numbers no longer fit with the telegraphs agenda..



And and as some one above stated, there are a huge number of company execs in the uk earning more than c£150k pa. I'd wager most of boards of the ftse 1000 for a start.

[Kavinho]

There is a wee bit of apples and pears comparisons in that article..

£142k gross is the fig vs £112k for the quoted pay grade, (not quoting numbers receiving it notably)

Add in Cameron's additional benefits for eggs a 2nd home allowance, remuneration for staying away overnight, not to mention the pension provided after leaving office, and the numbers no longer fit with the telegraphs agenda..



And and as some one above stated, there are a huge number of company execs in the uk earning more than c£150k pa. I'd wager most of boards of the ftse 1000 for ua start.

Bob Dudley, BP exec pocketed nearly 14m last year...... Average chief exec salaries were £4.96m on the ftse 100 last year.

[easty]

There is a wee bit of apples and pears comparisons in that article..

And and as some one above stated, there are a huge number of company execs in the uk earning more than c£150k pa. I'd wager most of boards of the ftse 1000 for a start.

That's apples and pears too. The PM isn't an exec at a FTSE 100 company.

There are average footballers in China earning a ****load (that Brazillian guy Hulk just signed a £320k a week deal), while better players accross Europe, while still very well paid, earn less than them.

It is what it is. The PM isn't underpaid because jobs elsewhere are better paid. The job comes with a package, and that's that. Don't aspire to it if it's not enough for you.

[Kavinho]

That's apples and pears too. The PM isn't an exec at a FTSE 100 company.

There are average footballers in China earning a ****load (that Brazillian guy Hulk just signed a £320k a week deal), while better players accross Europe, while still very well paid, earn less than them.

It is what it is. The PM isn't underpaid because jobs elsewhere are better paid. The job comes with a package, and that's that. Don't aspire to it if it's not enough for you.


Fair point .
my post was as a rebuttal to the "EU gravy train" comment, and an expansion on someone else pointing out that the uk pm job is not the most highly paid (with the quoted article manipulating the figures to make its point seem stronger)

[High-On-Hibs]

That's apples and pears too. The PM isn't an exec at a FTSE 100 company.

There are average footballers in China earning a ****load (that Brazillian guy Hulk just signed a £320k a week deal), while better players accross Europe, while still very well paid, earn less than them.

It is what it is. The PM isn't underpaid because jobs elsewhere are better paid. The job comes with a package, and that's that. Don't aspire to it if it's not enough for you.

The PM will have more than one job. Betting on the economy becomes considerably easier when you get the intelligence even quicker than the bookies.

[easty]

Fair point .
my post was as a rebuttal to the "EU gravy train" comment, and an expansion on someone else pointing out that the uk pm job is not the most highly paid (with the quoted article manipulating the figures to make its point seem stronger)

I didn't realise you were talking about something other than my post, I have to admit, trying to keep up to date with all the threads on the Holy Ground just now is pretty difficult!

[Kavinho]

I didn't realise you were talking about something other than my post, I have to admit, trying to keep up to date with all the threads on the Holy Ground just now is pretty difficult!
:aok::aok: