POLL: Does This Change the Balance on the Indie Question

[Colr]

I was not in favour of Scottish independence but the EU ref changes my view. Scotland will be isolated in the Union and has to leave for its own good.

Does the EU vote radically change the dynamic on the indie question? For me,it does.

[HibeeLR]

Voted Yes and would do the same in the event of another referendum.

[Speedy]

Not sure it would change my view but I think it does change the balance.

It is a clear as day example that Scotland didn't get what we voted for because England said so.

[overdrive]

It definitely gives me something to think about. I was a very vocal 'No' and at the moment I would probably be a 'Yes' but I don't know if that's just a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

[High-On-Hibs]

It definitely gives me something to think about. I was a very vocal 'No' and at the moment I would probably be a 'Yes' but I don't know if that's just a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Knee jerk reaction? We've just been ripped out of the single market. Something that will hurt Scotland more than the country that dragged us out. There is nothing knee jerk about it. Scotlands future is within the European single market. Not an isolated UK under the governance of Boris Johnson.

[#FromTheCapital]

Doesn't change my view. I and the majority of Scottish people voted to stay as part of the UK less than 2 years ago. As part of the United Kingdom we have to accept any choices made by Uk voters.

However, I can see this leading to change in many people's views and I think there's a good chance it will eventually lead to Scottish independence. If it does, then I and similarly minded people will need to accept that too. Going to be very interesting watching the fallout from this.

[RyeSloan]

Maybe London will launch an Indy campaign as well?

[High-On-Hibs]

Maybe London will launch an Indy campaign as well?

They have always been independent from the rest of the UK if available funding was anything to go by.

[Pretty Boy]

I was a late change to Yes before and I'd be an even stronger yes this time.

[lord bunberry]

Scottish independence is our only hope now imo. It's not really the way I wanted it to happen. I always hoped that the people of this country would vote for independence for positive reasons.

[Finn2015]

I don't necessarily think it would be a natural consequence that independence would win but certainly, I expect another referendum now. In a funny sort of way, this could be ideal for the SNP who obviously campaigned for the remain vote

[High-On-Hibs]

My concern is that people are stubborn. The 55% that got it wrong won't want to admit to themselves that they got it wrong and will delude themselves into letting Scotland down again.

Will be interesting to see what the OUT campaigns lies will be this time around. Because they'll be in short supply.

[The_Todd]

The 55% that got it wrong won't want to admit to themselves that they got it wrong and will delude themselves into letting Scotland down again.


With that condescending attitude you won't win anyone over. 55% didn't get it "wrong". You do know a Yes vote in 2014 would have seen Scotland outside the EU already, re-applying as a new member state? A process which takes years if not decades?

[Smartie]

With that condescending attitude you won't win anyone over. 55% didn't get it "wrong". You do know a Yes vote in 2014 would have seen Scotland outside the EU already, re-applying as a new member state? A process which takes years if not decades?

I wonder what that 55% are thinking this morning.

I'm sure many, like you, will not think that they got it wrong.

I'd be surprised if there aren't a few who aren't wishing they'd gone the other way though.

[High-On-Hibs]

With that condescending attitude you won't win anyone over. 55% didn't get it "wrong". You do know a Yes vote in 2014 would have seen Scotland outside the EU already, re-applying as a new member state? A process which takes years if not decades?

I have no interest in "winning people over". If people can't figure it out for themselves without other people telling them what choice to make, then we deserve all the crap we get as a nation.

It would not take "years if not decades". Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership. (With of course the exception of still being a member state of the UK).

[The_Todd]

I have no interest in "winning people over". If people can't figure it out for themselves without other people telling them what choice to make, then we deserve all the crap we get as a nation.

It would not take "years if not decades". Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership. (With of course the exception of still being a member state of the UK).

Uh huh. We were told by the EU in 2014 we'd be joining as a new member state and at the back of the queue. The process takes years whether you like it or not.

Also the Indyref wasn't just a question about the EU. The yes camp had no answers on big issues like the currency, economy etc. Those questions still remain and until the SNP come up with answers the next result will be the same. You can't offer the people a flimsy proposition then wail that they "got it wrong" when they don't vote the way you wanted.

[Iain G]

I have no interest in "winning people over". If people can't figure it out for themselves without other people telling them what choice to make, then we deserve all the crap we get as a nation.

It would not take "years if not decades". Scotland already meets all of the criteria for EU membership. (With of course the exception of still being a member state of the UK).

People did figure it out and everyone voted the way they wanted, this kinda high handed holier than thou attitude does nobody any favours and is disrespectful to people and to the democratic process

[High-On-Hibs]

Uh huh. We were told by the EU in 2014 we'd be joining as a new member state and at the back of the queue. The process takes years whether you like it or not.

Back of the queue? Where you stand in the queue is dependant on how much of the criteria that is met. We wouldn't be back of the queue at all. To suggest so, would be to suggest that we would be behind Turkey as well, which is utter nonsense.


Also the Indyref wasn't just a question about the EU. The yes camp had no answers on big issues like the currency, economy etc. Those questions still remain and until the SNP come up with answers the next result will be the same. You can't offer the people a flimsy proposition then wail that they "got it wrong" when they don't vote the way you wanted.

I agree, the economy is a "big issue". Which has now become an even greater issue. Suddenly being tied down the pound doesn't seem all that appealing. Within the next year or so, the Euro will look far more appealing by comparison.


People did figure it out and everyone voted the way they wanted, this kinda high handed holier than thou attitude does nobody any favours and is disrespectful to people and to the democratic process

You say "people did figure it out". What did they "figure out"? The NO campaign was based on arguments that have completely fallen apart in less than 2 years since the Scottish referendum. Their arguments about protecting jobs, protecting the NHS, protecting the value of the pound and of course protecting our place within the European Union are completely in tatters. Nothing was "figured out".

[Colr]

I see the SNP SG want to keep Scotland's connection with the EU and that's the right stance for a small outward looking trading nation.

The best result would be for Scotland to control its own affairs (to an extant as it does now) but keep a foot in both camps (UK and EU). It can then have the flexibility to rotate towards to most optimal position for its economy.

I'm not sure what that might look like, in fact a fudge may be better for us than a clearly defined alliance with one or the other.

[Betty Boop]

People did figure it out and everyone voted the way they wanted, this kinda high handed holier than thou attitude does nobody any favours and is disrespectful to people and to the democratic process

Hear hear.

[Iain G]

.

You say "people did figure it out". What did they "figure out"? The NO campaign was based on arguments that have completely fallen apart in less than 2 years since the Scottish referendum. Their arguments about protecting jobs, protecting the NHS, protecting the value of the pound and of course protecting our place within the European Union are completely in tatters. Nothing was "figured out".

They figured out which box they wanted to tick! Am sure a huge number of people were of the opinion that actually an independant Scotland was not what they wanted, regardless of whatever the No campaign said, most folks can work stuff out for themselves and make their own decisions and in all honesty it is their democratic right to vote however the see fit based on whichever argument or reason that may be relevant to them.

This is now a new landscape and you are applying what happened overnight to a discussion that was voted on over two years ago, let it go, it's done, the people decided. If you want to be helpful and positive then focus on where we are now folowing this Brexit decision and form a new arguement as to why you think Scotland should go it alone.

We are better than that as a country than to resort to pointless and petty point scoring and the "a big boy done it and ran away" attitude.

[RyeSloan]

Back of the queue? Where you stand in the queue is dependant on how much of the criteria that is met. We wouldn't be back of the queue at all. To suggest so, would be to suggest that we would be behind Turkey as well, which is utter nonsense. I agree, the economy is a "big issue". Which has now become an even greater issue. Suddenly being tied down the pound doesn't seem all that appealing. Within the next year or so, the Euro will look far more appealing by comparison. You say "people did figure it out". What did they "figure out"? The NO campaign was based on arguments that have completely fallen apart in less than 2 years since the Scottish referendum. Their arguments about protecting jobs, protecting the NHS, protecting the value of the pound and of course protecting our place within the European Union are completely in tatters. Nothing was "figured out".

You come out with some crackers! The Euro more appealing? Really? For what reason?

You do know that almost every nation in the world has been taking turns to devalue their currency...a weak currency can have significant benefits, especially if like the UK your balance of payments is so out of kilter. Sure there are pros and cons to everything but you seem to think weak pound = all bad and that's simply not the case.

[hibs0666]

Knee jerk reaction? We've just been ripped out of the single market. Something that will hurt Scotland more than the country that dragged us out. There is nothing knee jerk about it. Scotlands future is within the European single market. Not an isolated UK under the governance of Boris Johnson.

How is ripping ourselves out of our biggest single market a response to being ripped out of another single market?

[Beefster]

I wonder what that 55% are thinking this morning.

I'm sure many, like you, will not think that they got it wrong.

I'd be surprised if there aren't a few who aren't wishing they'd gone the other way though.

I don't wish I had voted yes in 2014. I didn't want to leave either the UK or EU.

I'll vote yes next time though because, if it has to be one or the other, being in the EU is more important than being in the UK. That and the thought of being part of any entity that could consider following the blond buffoon is just terrifying.

[s.a.m]

I don't wish I had voted yes in 2014. I didn't want to leave either the UK or EU.

I'll vote yes next time though because, if it has to be one or the other, being in the EU is more important than being in the UK. That and the thought of being part of any entity that could consider following the blond buffoon is just terrifying.

Exactly how I feel.

[Pretty Boy]

Will be interesting to see if there is any independence polling carried out in the next few days and if so what it reveals.

[easty]

As much as I think an Indy ref would vote yes right now, I can't see it happening any time soon.

[robinp]

My concern is that people are stubborn. The 55% that got it wrong won't want to admit to themselves that they got it wrong and will delude themselves into letting Scotland down again.

Will be interesting to see what the OUT campaigns lies will be this time around. Because they'll be in short supply.

What about the North Sea oil tax revenues that accounted for a major part of our annual tax income based on the SNP estimates.

Last year we made almost nothing off of NSO
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-36111753.

That's a hell of a lot of local government efficiency savings and/or tax income tax increases.

Lets not forget, the SNP are anti-austerity, no more poverty, no more foodbanks, no more NHS cuts etc. How are they going maintain those stances and run an economy if a major contributor in the SNP budgets has vanished? :confused:

edit: This is a genuine question that nobody seems to have asked whenever indyref2 gets mentioned.

I would vote no again because the sums (IMO) still do not add up.

[jane_says]

Voted yes and would do again.
Going by some of the comments on here and elsewhere it seems like Brexit would actually make a difference to the independence vote, which I'm surprised about. Didn't think it would affect it.

[easty]

What about the North Sea oil tax revenues that accounted for a major part of our annual tax income based on the SNP estimates.

Last year we made almost nothing off of NSO
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-36111753.

That's a hell of a lot of local government efficiency savings and/or tax income tax increases.

Lets not forget, the SNP are anti-austerity, no more poverty, no more foodbanks, no more NHS cuts etc. How are they going maintain those stances and run an economy if a major contributor in the SNP budgets has vanished? :confused:

edit: This is a genuine question that nobody seems to have asked whenever indyref2 gets mentioned.

I would vote no again because the sums (IMO) still do not add up.

Surely we could find a way to utilise our portion of the £350m week that the Leave campaign told us we could save by leaving the EU? That would fill the oil revenues black hole for a bit.

[High-On-Hibs]

How is ripping ourselves out of our biggest single market a response to being ripped out of another single market?

Because trade between Scotland and our next door neighbours that we happen to share the same island with would still continue.

[guthrie01]

What about the North Sea oil tax revenues that accounted for a major part of our annual tax income based on the SNP estimates.

Last year we made almost nothing off of NSO
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-36111753.

That's a hell of a lot of local government efficiency savings and/or tax income tax increases.

Lets not forget, the SNP are anti-austerity, no more poverty, no more foodbanks, no more NHS cuts etc. How are they going maintain those stances and run an economy if a major contributor in the SNP budgets has vanished? :confused:

edit: This is a genuine question that nobody seems to have asked whenever indyref2 gets mentioned.

I would vote no again because the sums (IMO) still do not add up.

Agree with this, was the reason I voted no. The SNP where not clear enough in the run up to the Independece ref on how our economy would survive and based most of it up to the "oil money" which turns out was not such a great idea. Hopefully they address this on the next referendum so I can change my vote, otherwise we will see the same outcome as last

[robinp]

Surely we could find a way to utilise our portion of the £350m week that the Leave campaign told us we could save by leaving the EU? That would fill the oil revenues black hole for a bit.

I would have thought this money would initially be earmarked for use to compensate/offset those who will no longer receive EU subsidies and EU regeneration investments etc. (this is where it gets very messy)

[JeMeSouviens]

With that condescending attitude you won't win anyone over. 55% didn't get it "wrong". You do know a Yes vote in 2014 would have seen Scotland outside the EU already, re-applying as a new member state? A process which takes years if not decades?

Oh come on! And you complain about someone else's attitude?

Sweden, Austria, Finland, 2 years exactly from start of negotiations to actual accession including time to hold referenda and they all had actual negotiating to bring them into compliance with EU law, Scotland is entirely EU compliant already.

A Yes vote would've seen seamless Scottish membership and every serious commentator knows it.

[easty]

I would have thought this money would initially be earmarked for use to compensate/offset those who will no longer receive EU subsidies and EU regeneration investments etc. (this is where it gets very messy)

It's for the NHS they said.

[Beefster]

It's for the NHS they said.

I think that particular fictional figure has been promised to various causes about five times over.

[JeMeSouviens]

What about the North Sea oil tax revenues that accounted for a major part of our annual tax income based on the SNP estimates.

Last year we made almost nothing off of NSO
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-36111753.

That's a hell of a lot of local government efficiency savings and/or tax income tax increases.

Lets not forget, the SNP are anti-austerity, no more poverty, no more foodbanks, no more NHS cuts etc. How are they going maintain those stances and run an economy if a major contributor in the SNP budgets has vanished? :confused:

edit: This is a genuine question that nobody seems to have asked whenever indyref2 gets mentioned.

I would vote no again because the sums (IMO) still do not add up.

I don't think the SNP/Yes were honest enough about the risk/short term pain last time (although Project Fear totally overdid it).

If we get another Indyref they're going to have to be frank. I think independence as an EU member is by far the best long term future for Scotland but you're right, the absence of NSO revenue and the uncertainty regarding the UK market have made the short term position even more challenging.

Although there must also be opportunities as the closest EU state to the UK market with a land border and (mostly) common language.

[Iain G]

Sturgeon saying another referendum is on the table...

[Geo_1875]

Uh huh. We were told by the EU in 2014 we'd be joining as a new member state and at the back of the queue. The process takes years whether you like it or not.

Also the Indyref wasn't just a question about the EU. The yes camp had no answers on big issues like the currency, economy etc. Those questions still remain and until the SNP come up with answers the next result will be the same. You can't offer the people a flimsy proposition then wail that they "got it wrong" when they don't vote the way you wanted.

Did you not hear the SNP say they would use the pound during IndyRef?

[Geo_1875]

How is ripping ourselves out of our biggest single market a response to being ripped out of another single market?

We've been told that UK removing itself from EU single market is a good thing so why would Scotland removing itself from UK market bad?

[Sir David Gray]

Voted no in 2014 and would still vote no now.

An independent Scotland ruled by the SNP does not appeal to me in the slightest.

[WeeRussell]

I don't wish I had voted yes in 2014. I didn't want to leave either the UK or EU.

I'll vote yes next time though because, if it has to be one or the other, being in the EU is more important than being in the UK. That and the thought of being part of any entity that could consider following the blond buffoon is just terrifying.

Though most of our 2014 referednum views are at odds with each other, Beefster, I think that is a very sensible response on your part.

This and the fact I like the "Mrs Beefster" jokes you do sometimes means you get a thumbs up from me :aok:

[500miles]

Voted no in 2014 and would still vote no now.

An independent Scotland ruled by the SNP does not appeal to me in the slightest.

UKIP will dissolve now.

The SNP would most likely do the same after a few years as there would be no single ideology to maintain party unity.

[NYHibby]

UKIP will dissolve now.

The SNP would most likely do the same after a few years as there would be no single ideology to maintain party unity.

I think the result of yesterday shows that there are a pool of people, particularly in England, that UKIP could evolve over the next couple of years to represent. Under a different leader, I think there is a greater than zero percent chance that it could become a more mainstream party for working class people who previously voted for both labour and the conservatives and who feel that those parties have left them behind.

I don't think you can completely rule out an evolved UKIP winning a dozen or two seats in 2020.

[hibs0666]

We've been told that UK removing itself from EU single market is a good thing so why would Scotland removing itself from UK market bad?

Even the UKIP erses stopped arguing that an EU exit would be good for the UK economy. In the same way it would not be good for Scotland to withdraw from the UK single market.

[pacoluna]

Voted no in 2014 and would still vote no now.

An independent Scotland ruled by the SNP does not appeal to me in the slightest.
how? An independent Scotland doesn't necessarily mean an SNP lead government.

[HibernianJK]

If we do get a 2nd Indy ref and do indeed vote yes this time, do you think it possible that, with the vast majority of Scotland voting to Remain, that the EU would take this into consideration should Scotland re-apply to be part of the EU as an independant country?

Surely they would have to accept that Scotland never wanted to leave the EU in the first place, despite voting to remain part of the Union that ultimately decide it's fate.

[speedy_gonzales]

Like most folk here, I'm not an expert in such things, but if indyref#2 was carried out quick enough before the implementation and execution of EU article 50, is there and possibility that Scotland could remain?

[JeMeSouviens]

Like most folk here, I'm not an expert in such things, but if indyref#2 was carried out quick enough before the implementation and execution of EU article 50, is there and possibility that Scotland could remain?

Yes.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/a-brexit-could-make-it-easier-for-scotland-to-join-the-eu-as-an-independent-state/

http://www.ft.com/fastft/2016/06/24/scotland-n-ireland-can-stay-in-eu-says-merkel-ally/

[stoneyburn hibs]

I'm worried that the brexit vote will give the Tories a bigger stick to beat Scotland with. Hopefully another vote for our independence happens soon and we have more yes voters after today's result.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I was No in 2014 but would switch to Yes in a second referendum, on the proviso we joined the EU post independence.

[ronaldo7]

I was No in 2014 but would switch to Yes in a second referendum, on the proviso we joined the EU post independence.

Theirs a train of thought, that we may not have to join, as we'll not leave.:wink: Lots of twists and turns in this one though.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I was a yes voter before and I would be again .... that's a position that would never change for me.

But interestingly my brother who was totally against independence has just this minute told me that though he could never vote for independence he would abstain in another indy referendum he is so disgusted at the UK leave vote.

[Sir David Gray]

how? An independent Scotland doesn't necessarily mean an SNP lead government.

It does at the moment.

Scotland is pretty much a single party state just now.

[Colr]

It does at the moment.

Scotland is pretty much a single party state just now.

Although the SNP is a bit of a coalition itself.

[ronaldo7]

It does at the moment.

Scotland is pretty much a single party state just now.

I could have sworn my ballot paper had about more than one party one it. Just because the electorate have become savvy, doesn't mean we live in a one party state.:wink:

[Velma Dinkley]

I think that particular fictional figure has been promised to various causes about five times over.

To be fair, it wasn't promised to anyone or anything.

[degenerated]

It does at the moment.

Scotland is pretty much a single party state just now.
Absolutely, if by that you mean that it's governed by a Tory government in WM, a minority SNP government in HR and there's a broad mix in councils.



Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[High-On-Hibs]

It does at the moment.

Scotland is pretty much a single party state just now.

You're right. We should go back to the days of being a one party state under the Labour Party. Such great times....

[HiBremian]

I was No in 2014 but would switch to Yes in a second referendum, on the proviso we joined the EU post independence.

Just watched a Brexit special on German telly. They seem to think if NS approaches EU with the referendum result in Scotland, she'll be told "we can only deal with sovereign nations, come back with a successful indyref2 and we can talk". You might just get your wish.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JJP]

A few family members have told me they would now vote Yes after having voted No in 2014. I remain unconvinced that we would have enough support to see it through though but it is early days I suppose.

[The Harp Awakes]

It definitely gives me something to think about. I was a very vocal 'No' and at the moment I would probably be a 'Yes' but I don't know if that's just a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Interesting. I spend a lot of weekends in Highland Perthshire where the electorate have a very different outlook compared to that of the central belt. Most are traditional SNP voters but were staunch 'No' voters in the 2014 referendum. They have been particularly infuriated by the SNPs policies on Land Reform in recent months. Their view on life is heavily influenced by rural job protection.

Was speaking to a few of them tonight in the pub and their view of an indyref2 was very different in light of Brexit. Those that I spoke to are now very much 50/50 having been totally No in 2014.

[Sir David Gray]

I could have sworn my ballot paper had about more than one party one it. Just because the electorate have become savvy, doesn't mean we live in a one party state.:wink:

My point was that the SNP are by far and away the biggest party in Scotland just now and if we got independence, the country would almost certainly be lead by them and it's something I absolutely do not want.

The poster who replied to me suggested that if we get independence then it wouldn't necessarily be the SNP who was in charge and I would totally disagree with that. There is no realistic prospect of any other political party holding any sort of power in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

[cabbageandribs1875]

Voted no in 2014 and would still vote no now.

An independent Scotland ruled by the SNP does not appeal to me in the slightest.


pray tell who you would prefer to run an independent scotland...i'm intrigued as to which political party you think would do a better job :dunno:

[cabbageandribs1875]

You're right. We should go back to the days of being a one party state under the Labour Party. Such great times....



god forbid

[blaikie]

I voted yes the first time .... It's always plagued on the back of my mind I didn't do enough to convince family or friends to vote, this time I'm onboard from the word go. I joined the SNP on the 19/09/2014 after the scenes in George Square, it's a dark day for Scotland and I can only hope we can somehow stay with the EU, after speaking with family, friends and colleagues the consensus seems to be Pro-Independence even with the most critical of the SNP and the first Referendum. I can only hope and pray people will carry the same attitude into the polling station.

[The Harp Awakes]

I voted yes the first time .... It's always plagued on the back of my mind I didn't do enough to convince family or friends to vote, this time I'm onboard from the word go. I joined the SNP on the 19/09/2014 after the scenes in George Square, it's a dark day for Scotland and I can only hope we can somehow stay with the EU, after speaking with family, friends and colleagues the consensus seems to be Pro-Independence even with the most critical of the SNP and the first Referendum. I can only hope and pray people will carry the same attitude into the polling station.

The biggest challenge for the Yes campaign in indyref2 is OAPs. The demographics were clear in both the Scottish and EU referendums that the over 65s don't vote for change and it's a massive sector of the population.

[degenerated]

The biggest challenge for the Yes campaign in indyref2 is OAPs. The demographics were clear in both the Scottish and EU referendums that the over 65s don't vote for change and it's a massive sector of the population.
They tend to be those that are guided by traditional media sources. The record appears to have performed a u turn already and no doubt other papers will follow suit. Getting the message out might not be as difficult this time round.

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[ronaldo7]

My point was that the SNP are by far and away the biggest party in Scotland just now and if we got independence, the country would almost certainly be lead by them and it's something I absolutely do not want.

The poster who replied to me suggested that if we get independence then it wouldn't necessarily be the SNP who was in charge and I would totally disagree with that. There is no realistic prospect of any other political party holding any sort of power in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

So it's not a one party state then.:greengrin

People have swung behind the SNP as they see them as competent, and they get things done, you might not, but others do.

Things change however, and I wouldn't be surprised if after an Independent vote, the SNP split into smaller factions to go their own way, and maybe, just maybe the Labour party might have got their act together to become a force again.

The SNP may be the lead party at the moment, but it won't always be the case. They've not even got a majority in Parliament at the moment.

I would ask you however, what reasons do you have to make you so sure the SNP couldn't carry things forward if we were INDY?

[lucky]

I voted and campaigned for No last time. At this stage I'm undecided on the next referendum. I want to see the arguments that yes will put forward. What currency would we have, would there be a Scottish Central bank? Would employment laws change? Would they scrap the anti TU legislation ? Would we retain our existing terms for EU membership ? What happens to Trident and the nuclear jobs? What type of power plants will Scotland have going forward? Will we reject TTIP? Will railways and ferrys be nationalised? Will the Yes campaign produce a "white paper2". That's just a few questions but there are hundreds more.

We can't be expected to vote for independence based on we don't like the democratic decisions of the U.K. I expect Yesers will always vote Yes but it's No voters that needs to be convinced not ardent independence voters. We can't be expected to vote for independence based on BJ and Farage are twats.

Where's the undecided option in the poll?

[Pretty Boy]

My point was that the SNP are by far and away the biggest party in Scotland just now and if we got independence, the country would almost certainly be lead by them and it's something I absolutely do not want.

The poster who replied to me suggested that if we get independence then it wouldn't necessarily be the SNP who was in charge and I would totally disagree with that. There is no realistic prospect of any other political party holding any sort of power in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

One of my key reasons for switching to yes last time is the opportunity I see for new, or evolved, parties to emerge and give a clear balance in Scottish politics. I actually found myself agreeing with Peter Hitchens yesterday, a sentence I thought I'd never say, when he said that Labour and the Tories no longer resembled the parties people once knew and have becomed bland, populist and full of career politicians.

An iScotland gives the opportunity for a true Scottish Labour party to emerge, the SNP would have to evolve if it ever met it's key aim and, despite what some argue, there would be plenty support for a socially and economically Conservative party as well. It all takes time of course but we are far further down the road than many 'new' countries were when they first held elections.

Fwiw I vaguely agree with the 'one party state' comment about the current climate but as I've said before that's entirely the fault of the impotent opposition rather than the SNP.

[Hibbyradge]

My point was that the SNP are by far and away the biggest party in Scotland just now and if we got independence, the country would almost certainly be lead by them and it's something I absolutely do not want.

The poster who replied to me suggested that if we get independence then it wouldn't necessarily be the SNP who was in charge and I would totally disagree with that. There is no realistic prospect of any other political party holding any sort of power in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

So you'd reject Scotland's independence until you thought there was a chance of a party you like getting elected? Maybe call a snap indyref when that day comes?

Meanwhile you'll put up with whoever the rUK Tories give you?

[BroxburnHibee]

I voted and campaigned for No last time. At this stage I'm undecided on the next referendum. I want to see the arguments that yes will put forward. What currency would we have, would there be a Scottish Central bank? Would employment laws change? Would they scrap the anti TU legislation ? Would we retain our existing terms for EU membership ? What happens to Trident and the nuclear jobs? What type of power plants will Scotland have going forward? Will we reject TTIP? Will railways and ferrys be nationalised? Will the Yes campaign produce a "white paper2". That's just a few questions but there are hundreds more.

We can't be expected to vote for independence based on we don't like the democratic decisions of the U.K. I expect Yesers will always vote Yes but it's No voters that needs to be convinced not ardent independence voters. We can't be expected to vote for independence based on BJ and Farage are twats.

Where's the undecided option in the poll?

I think one of the main reasons Yes lost the vote was some of these big questions were not being answered well enough.

If they come up with a better, more cohesive plan that may swing it this time.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There is no realistic prospect of any other political party holding any sort of power in Scotland for the foreseeable future.

Likewise with The Tories @ WM.

[Hibbyradge]

The biggest challenge for the Yes campaign in indyref2 is OAPs. The demographics were clear in both the Scottish and EU referendums that the over 65s don't vote for change and it's a massive sector of the population.

They voted for change on Thursday. They voted to leave.

[Beefster]

I've been giving some thought in the last 24 hours on why my gut is to vote 'Yes' in the next Scottish referendum despite voting to remain in both the Scottish and EU referendum.

I work for a global company directly alongside Scots, English, Poles, German, Turks and Americans. I'm also part of a wider distributed team comprising of Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Israelis, French, Indians and Russians. In my world, borders are arbitrary concepts that mean nothing and just get in the way. I see the merits of immigration and not isolating ourselves every single day.

This morning, I saw a working-class woman pontificate on TV, "We're English and we don't want or need all those other folk coming over here". Her peers in days gone by said the same about the 'darkies' coming over from the Caribbean and 'pakies' coming from Asia. Tellingly, they don't say it about Australians, New Zealanders, Americans or Canadians.

I'll vote for Scotland to leave the UK reluctantly (with the proviso that it means staying in the EU) because I can't give my agreement to my children growing up as part of an entity where the politics of racism, xenophobia and isolationism are views of the majority, despite the evidence saying that they shouldn't be.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I've been giving some thought in the last 24 hours on why my gut is to vote 'Yes' in the next Scottish referendum despite voting to remain in both the Scottish and EU referendum.

I work for a global company directly alongside Scots, English, Poles, German, Turks and Americans. I'm also part of a wider distributed team comprising of Canadians, Americans, Mexicans, Israelis, French, Indians and Russians. In my world, borders are arbitrary concepts that mean nothing and just get in the way. I see the merits of immigration and not isolating ourselves every single day.

This morning, I saw a working-class woman pontificate on TV, "We're English and we don't want or need all those other folk coming over here". Her peers in days gone by said the same about the 'darkies' coming over from the Caribbean and 'pakies' coming from Asia. Tellingly, they don't say it about Australians, New Zealanders, Americans or Canadians.

I'll vote for Scotland to leave the UK reluctantly (with the proviso that it means staying in the EU) because I can't give my agreement to my children growing up as part of an entity where the politics of racism, xenophobia and isolationism are views of the majority, despite the evidence saying that they shouldn't be.


Very good post and a reasonable point of view. The whole situation highlights there are splits right down the middle on any number of questions regarding Scotland's/Britain's place in the world, but there's a clear majority of Scots who don't want to leave the EU.

[lucky]

58% of Scots never voted to remain in the EU if you include non voters. So the question is there a Scottish mandate for another referendum ? Based solely on the EU referendum result?

[Benny Brazil]

I was a strong No in 2014 and am still inclined to think that way as I havent seen anything since then that would make me change my mind.
However - if the SNP can provide a much better argument for Independence then they did 2 yrs ago - and I mean specifically around the economy - then I would would be more open to change.

[Pretty Boy]

58% of Scots never voted to remain in the EU if you include non voters. So the question is there a Scottish mandate for another referendum ? Based solely on the EU referendum result?

What percentage never voted to leave if you include non voters? Or if we applied the same logic to the Yes vote in the indy referendum how would that have worked out?

[ronaldo7]

58% of Scots never voted to remain in the EU if you include non voters. So the question is there a Scottish mandate for another referendum ? Based solely on the EU referendum result?

I've seen Neil Findlay tweet about this today, I take it, that's where you got it?

If this is the level of debate we're going to get into, we'd be better going back to 1979 when dead people were included in the vote.

#Desperate.

[CapitalGreen]

58% of Scots never voted to remain in the EU if you include non voters. So the question is there a Scottish mandate for another referendum ? Based solely on the EU referendum result?

This can't be a serious post.

[xyz23jc]

I voted and campaigned for No last time. At this stage I'm undecided on the next referendum. I want to see the arguments that yes will put forward. What currency would we have, would there be a Scottish Central bank? Would employment laws change? Would they scrap the anti TU legislation ? Would we retain our existing terms for EU membership ? What happens to Trident and the nuclear jobs? What type of power plants will Scotland have going forward? Will we reject TTIP? Will railways and ferrys be nationalised? Will the Yes campaign produce a "white paper2". That's just a few questions but there are hundreds more.

We can't be expected to vote for independence based on we don't like the democratic decisions of the U.K. I expect Yesers will always vote Yes but it's No voters that needs to be convinced not ardent independence voters. We can't be expected to vote for independence based on BJ and Farage are twats.

Where's the undecided option in the poll?

How are you coping with the arguments put forward for our future outside the EU?

[RyeSloan]

I was a strong No in 2014 and am still inclined to think that way as I havent seen anything since then that would make me change my mind. However - if the SNP can provide a much better argument for Independence then they did 2 yrs ago - and I mean specifically around the economy - then I would would be more open to change.

I think a lot of people would be as here was before however the key questions on the practicalities are still unanswered.

And now there are even more barriers now than before though, especially if rUK is a non EU country without an agreement for free movement of labour. England is by far Scotland's biggest trading partner so economically it would appear a big stretch to suggest that somehow a political and monetary divorce along with a hard border would materially improve our economic prospects.

As I said yesterday I find it rather difficult to comprehend how a second Indy ref can be contemplated before we know the implications of the EU divorce settlement. Interesting times ahead that's for sure and the debate will rage for quite a while yet!

[jonty]

how about we just to kick England and wales out of the UK.
No indyref2, no brexit.

or (almost the same)
The UK remains in the EU (brexit was a draw)
England and Wales can hold their own indyref.

[PeeJay]

58% of Scots never voted to remain in the EU if you include non voters. So the question is there a Scottish mandate for another referendum ? Based solely on the EU referendum result?

Not sure it is a good idea to include "non-voters" to boost the "leave" figure up to 58%? :confused:

Mind you, I think 38% against remaining in the EU is a significant factor and doesn't necessarily mean that Scotland should have a 2nd referendum. Only 62% in favour of the EU is not really indicative that Scotland fully wants to be on board with the EU. What about the almost 40% that said leave? 40%! That's not exactly a ringing endorsement for the EU is it?

[Smartie]

I voted and campaigned for No last time. At this stage I'm undecided on the next referendum. I want to see the arguments that yes will put forward. What currency would we have, would there be a Scottish Central bank? Would employment laws change? Would they scrap the anti TU legislation ? Would we retain our existing terms for EU membership ? What happens to Trident and the nuclear jobs? What type of power plants will Scotland have going forward? Will we reject TTIP? Will railways and ferrys be nationalised? Will the Yes campaign produce a "white paper2". That's just a few questions but there are hundreds more.

We can't be expected to vote for independence based on we don't like the democratic decisions of the U.K. I expect Yesers will always vote Yes but it's No voters that needs to be convinced not ardent independence voters. We can't be expected to vote for independence based on BJ and Farage are twats.

Where's the undecided option in the poll?

I think anyone smart would say "undecided" (and I say that as someone who voted yes last time, would vote yes tomorrow and in all likelihood will vote yes if there is an Indyref 2).

The last referendum and what motivated us to vote the way we did last time bears no resemblance to what the next one might be. The "debate" last time round mainly focussed on issues such as whether or not we could use the pound and whether or not we would/ could get EU membership. These arguments would be irrelevant in the event of Indyref2 and as yet we do not know how the debate may shape up, who will be involved on either side and what the debate will mainly focus in on. Is Ruth Davidson more of a European Unionist or a UK Unionist? Which way does Gordon Brown go with his motivational speech?

The UK may quickly evolve into some sort of utopia free from red-tape and bureaucracy. The economy might go from strength to strength. The EU might implode, cease to exist and the carrot of EU membership upon leaving the UK may be off the table. We might, er, have a cold winter leaving our elderly to think a bit harder about what they want to do. It's also only a matter of hours since our country made one of the most monumental decisions it has ever made - the dust might settle, emotions might calm down and we might all think a bit differently in a few weeks.

[steakbake]

I think one of the main reasons Yes lost the vote was some of these big questions were not being answered well enough.

If they come up with a better, more cohesive plan that may swing it this time.

Some of them are big questions, but much of them are about the policy of a government of an independent state: which is a separate issue.

I can write my own list of demands for conditions for my yes vote: I dunno, 24/7 library opening and a bottle of champagne for each citizen every month, maybe a frisbee for every dog in iScotland and a guarantee they'll release elk into the highlands.

Fundamentally, the game has changed. I'd always thought indyref2 on the basis of a Brexit was a hypothetical position - I can scarce imagine that any or at least most politicians thought it would really come to pass. Now it is here and it won't be an amicable divorce. This is a disaster for the UK, and if an independent Scotland is a life raft, I don't think many will be chewing over the fineries of what that might offer. I suspect it will be at least a plan and initiated discussions of a timetable towards currency and EU status - which may end up being related.

[#FromTheCapital]

Let's have a look at the numbers as well. In 2014, 2 million scots voted to stay part of the UK with a majority of 55%. Whereas yes received 1.6 million votes at 45%. In the EU referendum, 1.67 million scots voted to remain with a majority of 62% (smaller number of votes than better together 2014 but larger majority). Just over 1 million scots voted to leave the EU at 38%.

So the argument for a second referendum seems to be based on 1.67m wanting to stay in the EU Vs 2m people who wanted to stay part of the UK less than 2 years ago. Brexit changes a lot and it's clear to see even from reading on here that many no voters may now vote yes if there was another independence referendum, but I'm just pointing this out.

The percentages make it look a bit different but the EU referendum was never going to get voters out in the same way as an idependence referendum.

[Mr Grieves]

Let's have a look at the numbers as well. In 2014, 2 million scots voted to stay part of the UK with a majority of 55%. Whereas yes received 1.6 million votes at 45%. In the EU referendum, 1.67 million scots voted to remain with a majority of 62% (smaller number of votes than better together 2014 but larger majority). Just over 1 million scots voted to leave the EU at 38%.

So the argument for a second referendum seems to be based on 1.67m wanting to stay in the EU Vs 2m people who wanted to stay part of the UK less than 2 years ago. Brexit changes a lot and it's clear to see even from reading on here that many no voters may now vote yes if there was another independence referendum, but I'm just pointing this out.

The percentages make it look a bit different but the EU referendum was never going to get voters out in the same way as an idependence referendum.
Turnout was lower for the Eu referendum than the independence referendum, but so too was the number of eligible voters. 16 and 17 year olds and EU nationals weren't eligible to vote in the EU referendum

[degenerated]

This can't be a serious post.
What's worse is that it's an argument being peddled by Neil Findlay. That he's such a prominent figure in Scottish labour perhaps explains the state they are in.

Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

I voted and campaigned for No last time. At this stage I'm undecided on the next referendum. I want to see the arguments that yes will put forward. What currency would we have, would there be a Scottish Central bank? Would employment laws change? Would they scrap the anti TU legislation ? Would we retain our existing terms for EU membership ? What happens to Trident and the nuclear jobs? What type of power plants will Scotland have going forward? Will we reject TTIP? Will railways and ferrys be nationalised? Will the Yes campaign produce a "white paper2". That's just a few questions but there are hundreds more.

We can't be expected to vote for independence based on we don't like the democratic decisions of the U.K. I expect Yesers will always vote Yes but it's No voters that needs to be convinced not ardent independence voters. We can't be expected to vote for independence based on BJ and Farage are twats.

Where's the undecided option in the poll?

Come on lucky, you know fine well that most of those questions are mot for a referendum, they are policy issues to be debated.

Independence (or not) is about who should make the decisions, not what the decsions shouls be

[lucky]

Come on lucky, you know fine well that most of those questions are mot for a referendum, they are policy issues to be debated.

Independence (or not) is about who should make the decisions, not what the decsions shouls be

But these type of questions are ones that lost the yes campaign the last referendum

[CapitalGreen]

But these type of questions are ones that lost the yes campaign the last referendum

Can you confirm if that as post you made earlier was serious?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

But these type of questions are ones that lost the yes campaign the last referendum

Maybe, but i would say yes/snp made it too much of a policy debate rather than focusing on a principle debate. I know that was a deliberate attempt, particuarly late on, to try and win over the socialist vote (which they largely did).

Ultimately, i dont believe yes can win until it has a credible alternative currency - they were all over the place with that one, and most people will not risk that - rightly so.

Brexit might make that alternative much more obvious if its the euro - but the eurozone would have to be a lot more appealing than it is now.

However, id rUK does well post brexit, it might still be a bigger risk than most are willing to take

[ronaldo7]

Can you confirm if that as post you made earlier was serious?

It's Labour party Policy.:wink:

Although some level headed chaps in the party disagree.

17019

[Hibrandenburg]

Not sure it is a good idea to include "non-voters" to boost the "leave" figure up to 58%? :confused:

Mind you, I think 38% against remaining in the EU is a significant factor and doesn't necessarily mean that Scotland should have a 2nd referendum. Only 62% in favour of the EU is not really indicative that Scotland fully wants to be on board with the EU. What about the almost 40% that said leave? 40%! That's not exactly a ringing endorsement for the EU is it?

If we're drifting away from the facts and are now calculating in fantasy voters then we also need to calculate those who voted out tactically to swing another Scottish referendum.

[ACLeith]

The biggest challenge for the Yes campaign in indyref2 is OAPs. The demographics were clear in both the Scottish and EU referendums that the over 65s don't vote for change and it's a massive sector of the population.

'Scuse me, I voted YES and REMAIN. Proud then to be thought of as different and independent THA 😈

[Sir David Gray]

So you'd reject Scotland's independence until you thought there was a chance of a party you like getting elected? Maybe call a snap indyref when that day comes?

Meanwhile you'll put up with whoever the rUK Tories give you?

Correct.

As I said, the thought of living in an independent Scotland run by the SNP doesn't appeal to me at all.

I understand that there would be other parties in Scotland even after independence but given the political situation just now, there's no other party which is even remotely electable right now.

[Colr]

I think I might stand as an SNP candidate here and campaign for London to leave England and join Scotland in the EU.

[ronaldo7]

I think I might stand as an SNP candidate here and campaign for London to leave England and join Scotland in the EU.

http://www.snp.org/register :aok:

[Albion Hibs]

I voted No last time and I would do the same again without a shadow of a doubt.

Krankie and and her gang have in almost two years made absolutely no progress in addressing any of the fundamental flaws in the independence proposal, currency, what we do without oil etc etc.

To decide to leave a union that we do 5 times the amount of business with to chase after being part of the eu makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Let's not forget we are walking out of a union because we are upset at coming out of a union.

I am am not happy about Thursday but the coming months will show how much we need the rest of the U.K and how mch they need us. If krankie had any class she would be working on how we as part of the U.K move forward and using the chance to get a few extra powers.

Her possible Indy move to me is classless. At a time when we need stability and focus, she goes after the one and only thing she cares about, achieving it has no downside or costs to her.

Boris, if he gets PM won't last 12 months. The muppets that protest voted have ended up with a bad version of Cameron. When the economy hits the skids he will get emptied, fingers crossed at that point we have a Scottish and Westminster gov that are working towards a common goal.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I voted No last time and I would do the same again without a shadow of a doubt.

Krankie and and her gang have in almost two years made absolutely no progress in addressing any of the fundamental flaws in the independence proposal, currency, what we do without oil etc etc.

To decide to leave a union that we do 5 times the amount of business with to chase after being part of the eu makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Let's not forget we are walking out of a union because we are upset at coming out of a union.

I am am not happy about Thursday but the coming months will show how much we need the rest of the U.K and how mch they need us. If krankie had any class she would be working on how we as part of the U.K move forward and using the chance to get a few extra powers.

Her ear move to me is classless. At a time when we need stability and focus, she goes after the one and only thing she cares about, achieving it has no downside or costs to her.

Boris, if he gets PM won't last 12 months. The muppets that protest voted have ended up with a bad version of Cameron. When the economy hits the skids he will get emptied, fingers crossed at that point we have a Scottish and Westminster gov that are working towards a common goal.

I respect your opinion but disagree, as to my mind, things have changed enormously. We were told in 2014 that a No vote guaranteed our place in the EU, but less than two years on we're pulling out. We face a situation where the workplace/social/human rights, single market and free movement of people, which a clear majority of Scots support, will be taken away. A 400 million strong single market gone forever. If/when we get a second Scottish referendum, there will be a switch from No to Yes by many, and I think I would include myself in that.

[Albion Hibs]

I respect your opinion but disagree, as to my mind, things have changed enormously. We were told in 2014 that a No vote guaranteed our place in the EU, but less than two years on we're pulling out. We face a situation where the workplace/social/human rights, single market and free movement of people, which a clear majority of Scots support, will be taken away. A 400 million strong single market gone forever. If/when we get a second Scottish referendum, there will be a switch from No to Yes by many, and I think I would include myself in that.

we were told if we leave the uk then we leave the eu which was a fact. The eu referendum was on the cards when the independence vote took place, if anyone thought the outcome was guaranteed then they are that stupid they should not be allowed to vote.

The he size of the market is a lovely buzz fact, but a more significant one is the fact we do 5 times the business with the rUk as we do in the eu. Would you swap a fiver for a pound? If so let me know where to meet you!

[Hibernia&Alba]

we were told if we leave the uk then we leave the eu which was a fact. The eu referendum was on the cards when the independence vote took place, if anyone thought the outcome was guaranteed then they are that stupid they should not be allowed to vote.

The he size of the market is a lovely buzz fact, but a more significant one is the fact we do 5 times the business with the rUk as we do in the eu. Would you swap a fiver for a pound? If so let me know where to meet you!

We were actually told Scotland may struggle to gain EU membership post independence and being outside the EU would be a disaster. That argument is now irrelevant: we're leaving the EU anyway, with all the benefits that we gain from it. Thursday's result has further widened the divergent paths England and Scotland are on. Whereas the likes of Johnson and Gove see EU social legislation as bureaucratic red tape, most Scots value it; whilst they regard free movement of people as a negative, due to immigration, most Scots don't seem to share that fear.

We'll certainly still trade with England, just as the Brexiteers say we'll still trade with the EU, but it's the European social model I want, not the American vision of UKIP and the Tories. A second referendum seems nailed on now, and I will probably be a Yes next time.

[RyeSloan]

We were actually told Scotland may struggle to gain EU membership post independence and being outside the EU would be a disaster. That argument is now irrelevant: we're leaving the EU anyway, with all the benefits that we gain from it. Thursday's result has further widened the divergent paths England and Scotland are on. Whereas the likes of Johnson and Gove see EU social legislation as bureaucratic red tape, most Scots value it; whilst they regard free movement of people as a negative, due to immigration, most Scots don't seem to share that fear. We'll certainly still trade with England, just as the Brexiteers say we'll still trade with the EU, but it's the European social model I want, not the American vision of UKIP and the Tories. A second referendum seems nailed on now, and I will probably be a Yes next time.

The European social model that s so successful in France where they have a flat lining economy riddled with strikes? Or the Italian model with almost no growth for a decade and 12% unemployment? Or maybe the Spanish one at over 20% unemployment? Or the Greek one with never ending austerity and economic destruction?

[MyJo]

we were told if we leave the uk then we leave the eu which was a fact. The eu referendum was on the cards when the independence vote took place, if anyone thought the outcome was guaranteed then they are that stupid they should not be allowed to vote.

The he size of the market is a lovely buzz fact, but a more significant one is the fact we do 5 times the business with the rUk as we do in the eu. Would you swap a fiver for a pound? If so let me know where to meet you!

Given that England will not be in the EU and thier imports will rely on agreements with the EU and other nations anyway surely an independent Scotland within the EU could have a trade agreement in place with England to preserve the current import/export arrangements.

Or do you believe that England will cut off thier nose to spite thier face and start importing things they currently get from scotland from other countries instead if we choose to be independent and remain an EU member?

be independent and keep the benefits of EU membership and negotiate a trade agreement with england for our exports or maintain our union within the UK with all the "benefits" that brings and negotiate a trade agreement with the EU.

I know which of those i would prefer.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The European social model that s so successful in France where they have a flat lining economy riddled with strikes? Or the Italian model with almost no growth for a decade and 12% unemployment? Or maybe the Spanish one at over 20% unemployment? Or the Greek one with never ending austerity and economic destruction?

The European social model of high progressive taxation, high government spending, strong welfare systems, strong trade unions, low inequality and cooperation. The neo-liberal model of the USA and UK almost sank the world economy in 2008. It benefits a tiny few and means more insecurity and worse working conditions for the majority.

[The Harp Awakes]

'Scuse me, I voted YES and REMAIN. Proud then to be thought of as different and independent THA 

And good on you AC for doing so. I'm proud to say my 90 year old English born mother voted yes as well in the indyref. She was a lifetime labour voter before switching to the SNP a few years back.

[Albion Hibs]

We were actually told Scotland may struggle to gain EU membership post independence and being outside the EU would be a disaster. That argument is now irrelevant: we're leaving the EU anyway, with all the benefits that we gain from it. Thursday's result has further widened the divergent paths England and Scotland are on. Whereas the likes of Johnson and Gove see EU social legislation as bureaucratic red tape, most Scots value it; whilst they regard free movement of people as a negative, due to immigration, most Scots don't seem to share that fear.

We'll certainly still trade with England, just as the Brexiteers say we'll still trade with the EU, but it's the European social model I want, not the American vision of UKIP and the Tories. A second referendum seems nailed on now, and I will probably be a Yes next time.

so basically the same end result as you want via a second independence vote...just a different route to get there.

a "model" I don't know what that even means, but I assume it means the economy in the bid, mass unemployment etc etc...Greece maybe?! Which bits of Europe the existing EUmdo,you think will still be there when we eventually get back in...if we get back in - not having a bank, currency and running at a deficit being a few initial hurdles to cross.

i don't think there will be another Indy vote. I think we will end up with a decent exit package or the balance of the Eu will take a radical reform. Meantime wee sturge will no doubt be getting told sternly that you are not getting in whilst canvassing for an increase from the 45...which I don't think she will get.

[judas]

I voted Yes in the Indy referendum but I almost changed my mind in the booth, and to be honest I have felt very ambivalent ever since.

The Italian prime minister said today that the EU was Italy's home, but that it needed reassessed and renovated. I would like to see how this transition plays out over the next few years for the UK and EU. If the EU appears to be adapting and improving, then I would probably look for Scotland to move into that 'renovated home'.

In the meantime I see no reason why scotland with its own devolved government can't hold detailed talks with Brussels to see if any arrangements can be made to retain links and even lay the ground for future integration of some kind.

I would also say, that I expect the SNP and Yes movements will now be canvassing opinion and gathering intelligence on the mood of the scottish public. If the results say that Scotland would vote very narrowly for a yes, then I don't think that's enough. For me, any evidence needs to show that there is a strong majority (10% min) of scottish people who want independence. And that this robust position has been held over a reasonable period.

[Hibernia&Alba]

so basically the same end result as you want via a second independence vote...just a different route to get there.

a "model" I don't know what that even means, but I assume it means the economy in the bid, mass unemployment etc etc...Greece maybe?! Which bits of Europe the existing EUmdo,you think will still be there when we eventually get back in...if we get back in - not having a bank, currency and running at a deficit being a few initial hurdles to cross.

i don't think there will be another Indy vote. I think we will end up with a decent exit package or the balance of the Eu will take a radical reform. Meantime wee sturge will no doubt be getting told sternly that you are not getting in whilst canvassing for an increase from the 45...which I don't think she will get.

I want to remain in the EU yes, as do 62% of Scots who voted a couple of days ago. Being in the EU doesn't necessarily mean joining the Euro, which has been very difficult for some countries to adapt to. Greece, of course, found itself a victim of the 2008 crash, but it wasn't the EU that caused their demise, that was de-regulated international financial system. It was the American economic model that started the whole process, and that's what I don't want for Scotland/the UK. I prefer the German, French, Swedish, Danish, Dutch approach of high tax and spend and heavily regulated markets. We've had 35 years of monetarism/neo-liberalism that has failed millions. It's the EU that provides many of our workplace, human rights, environmental, health and safety benefits, and now we're about to lose those too. Britain will become even more unequal and unjust outside the EU, which is a vision rejected by a large majority in Scotland. I would much prefer European cooperation to fierce competition.

We'll need to what happens next, but, if this culminates in a second Scottish referendum, I think I will be changing my vote to Yes and re-entry into the EU.

[High-On-Hibs]

I voted No last time and I would do the same again without a shadow of a doubt.

Krankie and and her gang have in almost two years made absolutely no progress in addressing any of the fundamental flaws in the independence proposal, currency, what we do without oil etc etc.

To decide to leave a union that we do 5 times the amount of business with to chase after being part of the eu makes absolutely no sense at all to me. Let's not forget we are walking out of a union because we are upset at coming out of a union.

I am am not happy about Thursday but the coming months will show how much we need the rest of the U.K and how mch they need us. If krankie had any class she would be working on how we as part of the U.K move forward and using the chance to get a few extra powers.

Her possible Indy move to me is classless. At a time when we need stability and focus, she goes after the one and only thing she cares about, achieving it has no downside or costs to her.

Boris, if he gets PM won't last 12 months. The muppets that protest voted have ended up with a bad version of Cameron. When the economy hits the skids he will get emptied, fingers crossed at that point we have a Scottish and Westminster gov that are working towards a common goal.

Referring to Nicola as "Krankie" dims your argument before it has even been read. I sure hope you don't adopt that tactic in indyref2, could seriously backfire.

Anyway...

You say we do 5 times the business with the United Kingdom. But do keep in mind that this is with a United Kingdom within the European Union. Could you honestly guarantee that business with our English partners would be anywhere near as strong outwith the EU with a severely weakened sterling?

You're argument seems to be: "Aye, we were lied to in order to maintain the UK. But at least being pulled out of the EU against our will gives us scope to whip out the begging bowls again."


​Good luck trying to motivate British Unionists/Nationalist (it gets confusing) with that level of debate.

[#FromTheCapital]

I want to remain in the EU yes, as do 62% of Scots who voted a couple of days ago. Being in the EU doesn't necessarily mean joining the Euro, which has been very difficult for some countries to adapt to. Greece, of course, found itself a victim of the 2008 crash, but it wasn't the EU that caused their demise, that was de-regulated international financial system. It was the American economic model that started the whole process, and that's what I don't want for Scotland/the UK. I prefer the German, French, Swedish, Danish, Dutch approach of high tax and spend and heavily regulated markets. We've had 35 years of monetarism/neo-liberalism that has failed millions. It's the EU that provides many of our workplace, human rights, environmental, health and safety benefits, and now we're about to lose those too. Britain will become an even more unequal and unjust outside the EU, which is a vision rejected by a large majority in Scotland. I would much prefer European cooperation to fierce competition.

We'll need to what happens next, but, if this culminates in a second Scottish referendum, I think I will be changing my vote to Yes and re-entry into the EU.

You think we'll be able to keep the pound as an independent Scotland and a new member of the EU? Can see the currency issue being the primary argument for any future Better together campaign, just like it was last time.

[High-On-Hibs]

You think we'll be able to keep the pound as an independent Scotland and a new member of the EU? Can see the currency issue being the primary argument for any future Better together campaign, just like it was last time.

I think the question will be: "Do we still want to keep the pound?".

[#FromTheCapital]

I think the question will be: "Do we still want to keep the pound?".

So we're all desperate to have the euro now in light of the EU referendum outcome? No chance.

[High-On-Hibs]

So we're all desperate to have the euro now in light of the EU referendum outcome? No chance.

You're saying that now. But things change over time, no less the economy. The Euro may well look far more appealing by the time we cross the currency bridge.

[Hibernia&Alba]

You think we'll be able to keep the pound as an independent Scotland and a new member of the EU? Can see the currency issue being the primary argument for any future Better together campaign, just like it was last time.

That's a good point. At this very early stage, it's impossible to know. Perhaps we'd need to negotiate some arrangement to keep the pound transitionally then joining the euro asap :dunno:

[MyJo]

You think we'll be able to keep the pound as an independent Scotland and a new member of the EU? Can see the currency issue being the primary argument for any future Better together campaign, just like it was last time.

I can see the EU coming back saying you can stay on the conditions that you vote to become an independent state and adopt the Euro as currency.

[#FromTheCapital]

You're saying that now. But things change over time, no less the economy. The Euro may well look far more appealing by the time we cross the currency bridge.

Things do change but I think the euro has been a complete failure, good idea in principal but proven to be completely unworkable. I can't see that changing anytime soon.

[High-On-Hibs]

Things do change but I think the euro has been a complete failure, good idea in principal but proven to be completely unworkable. I can't see that changing anytime soon.

You're calling it a complete failure. Despite the fact that it has seen steady growth since the crash. The uncertainty regarding the pound may just sway people towards the Euro. Although it's far too early to say exactly what will happen at this stage.

[ronaldo7]

I can see the EU coming back saying you can stay on the conditions that you vote to become an independent state and adopt the Euro as currency.

Lots of work to do before that. I'll just leave this one here.:aok:

17022

[MyJo]

Lots of work to do before that. I'll just leave this one here.:aok:

17022

Can we not "informally" adopt the Euro as our currency of choice if we do decide to leave the UK?

edit: i think the term i was looking for was "unilateral adoption" of the curreny while a formal arrangement was put in place for future.

[degenerated]

I can see the EU coming back saying you can stay on the conditions that you vote to become an independent state and adopt the Euro as currency.
In order to use the Euro you need two years in ERM2. ERM 2 is not mandatory therefore this whole thou shalt use the Euro argument is moot.

Denmark, Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, Sweden amongst others are not using the Euro and have shown little appetite in moving towards it.

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[#FromTheCapital]

In order to use the Euro you need two years in ERM2. ERM 2 is not mandatory therefore this whole thou shalt use the Euro argument is moot.

Denmark, Croatia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Poland, Sweden amongst others are not using the Euro and have shown little appetite in moving towards it.

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Ok so the pound it is, can't foresee any issues there.

[High-On-Hibs]

Ok so the pound it is, can't foresee any issues there.

Yep. Because the "radical" idea of having our own monetary system and using our own system of currency is just so far fetched right? It's not as if any other country in the world has ever gone down that route before.

[ronaldo7]

Can we not "informally" adopt the Euro as our currency of choice if we do decide to leave the UK?

edit: i think the term i was looking for was "unilateral adoption" of the curreny while a formal arrangement was put in place for future.

Other countries have joined the EU saying they would join the Euro but never got round to it:wink:

[#FromTheCapital]

Yep. Because the "radical" idea of having our own monetary system and using our own system of currency is just so far fetched right? It's not as if any other country in the world has ever gone down that route before.

It's not our own though is it. The pound is the currency of the United Kingdom, the same United Kingdom that we'd need to leave.

[degenerated]

Ok so the pound it is, can't foresee any issues there.
Good so that's that one cleared up.



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[Finn2015]

Honestly think that the break of the U.K. Is inevitable. I live down in England and increasingly, the perception of the scots being a drain and an economic burden is perpetuated. Of course, it is BS but the divisions are there and this so called United Kingdom is increasingly disunited

[Hibernia&Alba]

Honestly think that the break of the U.K. Is inevitable. I live down in England and increasingly, the perception of the scots being a drain and an economic burden is perpetuated. Of course, it is BS but the divisions are there and this so called United Kingdom is increasingly disunited

IMHO, Thursday's vote sealed independence; it's going to happen at some point, and probably soon. England and Scotland have been on different paths for decades, and leaving the EU will very likely mean the end of the UK. The differences are too fundamental to keep the show on the road.

[marinello59]

IMHO, Thursday's vote sealed independence; it's going to happen at some point, and probably soon. England and Scotland have been on different paths for decades, and leaving the EU will very likely mean the end of the UK. The differences are too fundamental to keep the show on the road.

This might be too soon though. There will be a bigger Yes vote of we go to the polls, no doubt. But in order to win we need people who don't like change to vote for an extra layer of uncertainty to that which Brexit has given us.

[JeMeSouviens]

Ok so the pound it is, can't foresee any issues there.

Why don't we have our own currency? Always been my preferred option.

[RyeSloan]

You're calling it a complete failure. Despite the fact that it has seen steady growth since the crash. The uncertainty regarding the pound may just sway people towards the Euro. Although it's far too early to say exactly what will happen at this stage.

What does 'has seen steady growth since the crash' even mean?

Please direct me to any evidence that would suggest the Euro has been a success. It's existence and relative value to the dollar or the pound do no such thing btw.

[johnbc70]

Use the pound by all means but your monetary policy is set by a foreign government who will quite rightly put their own countries needs first when looking at interest rates and inflation etc.

People do realise using the pound in an independent Scotland means using the BoE as the body that sets interest rates here and dictates to us what our monetary policy is. How independent is that, using another countrys currently and central bank.

Maybe it should be the Euro, I mean look how successful that has been....oh wait.

[JeMeSouviens]

This might be too soon though. There will be a bigger Yes vote of we go to the polls, no doubt. But on order to win we need people who don't like change to vote for an extra layer of uncertainty to that which Brexit has given us.

Possibly. Seamless eu membership rather than out and reapply later is a big prize though.

[Smartie]

Why don't we have our own currency? Always been my preferred option.

Mine too.

Apparently it is risky though, there would be issues with cash reserves and financial institutions would not be keen on the uncertainty of it.

[SHODAN]

Voted yes first time but pretty relieved when we voted No. I felt voting Yes was the right thing but was concerned about the fallout.

This time I'm 100% Yes, both for the fact that being out of the EU will cause collateral damage to our country and that I feel we are no longer a United Kingdom in politics or shared values.

[#FromTheCapital]

Why don't we have our own currency? Always been my preferred option.

Aye that should be flawless. Everyone is up in arms about the pound taking a dive let's see what happens when we start our own currency.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Voted yes first time but pretty relieved when we voted No. I felt voting Yes was the right thing but was concerned about the fallout.

This time I'm 100% Yes, both for the fact that being out of the EU will cause collateral damage to our country and that I feel we are no longer a United Kingdom in politics or shared values.

Im afraid your yes vote is the same, 100% or not!

[ronaldo7]

Use the pound by all means but your monetary policy is set by a foreign government who will quite rightly put their own countries needs first when looking at interest rates and inflation etc.

People do realise using the pound in an independent Scotland means using the BoE as the body that sets interest rates here and dictates to us what our monetary policy is. How independent is that, using another countrys currently and central bank.

Maybe it should be the Euro, I mean look how successful that has been....oh wait.


Our monetary policy is already set by a foreign government:thumbsup:

The Government of the UK is not currently looking after all of the UK, they have policies to look after a select group and the divergence from the people in the north of the country is stark.

Currency is going to be a critical factor, and if we can get that right, we're on our way from misery to happiness.:greengrin

[Beefster]

Lots of work to do before that. I'll just leave this one here.:aok:

17022


Why don't we have our own currency? Always been my preferred option.

I'd rather just adopt the Euro personally.

[degenerated]

I'd rather just adopt the Euro personally.
So would I, but I don't think we meet the required criteria.

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[Leith Green]

So would I, but I don't think we meet the required criteria.

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I would be amazed if Scotland were not entered into the E.U and into the Euro as a currency. The E.U will want to do two things here . Firstly they will want to show that there is demand for the E.U , secondly they are bound to have an element of sticking two fingers up to the rest of the U.K..

Independence and the Euro for me. The pounds future is just as uncertain as taking the Euro.

[johnbc70]

Our monetary policy is already set by a foreign government:thumbsup:

The Government of the UK is not currently looking after all of the UK, they have policies to look after a select group and the divergence from the people in the north of the country is stark.

Currency is going to be a critical factor, and if we can get that right, we're on our way from misery to happiness.:greengrin

So your happy with interest rates being set by a completely independent country who have no requirement to consider us at all when deciding what they are?

Direct question - who would be our lender of last resort?

[ronaldo7]

So your happy with interest rates being set by a completely independent country who have no requirement to consider us at all when deciding what they are?

Direct question - who would be our lender of last resort?

I'd actually like to use the Euro, or at least work towards it.

[johnbc70]

I'd actually like to use the Euro, or at least work towards it.

That's a risk the SNP need to judge if it's worth taking. Think that would be a big obstacle for many and a very hard sell if it's part of Scottish independence.

I would have to massively convinced that we adopt the Euro in an iScotland as it's been such a disaster elsewhere.

[ronaldo7]

That's a risk the SNP need to judge if it's worth taking. Think that would be a big obstacle for many and a very hard sell if it's part of Scottish independence.

I would have to massively convinced that we adopt the Euro in an iScotland as it's been such a disaster elsewhere.

I'm sure it's a risk, and the road in the next couple of years will be long and hard, with decisions to be taken which might be unpalatable to some, however we've been put in this position by the brexit vote, and I have confidence in the FM to take a path which is in Scotlands best interests.

[#FromTheCapital]

I'd actually like to use the Euro, or at least work towards it.

Why?

[ronaldo7]

Why?

Many different reasons, however the main one is that we have a fresh start within the EU. Many possibilities on the currency, and we won't know how to proceed until the discussions with Brussels and WM have taken place.

[jonty]

Keep the Scottish pound. Its not like we don't have any printed, and some English traders refuse it anyway.

[#FromTheCapital]

Is there any people on here who were in favour of independence but voted to leave the EU? If so, how would you vote in a future Indy ref?

[johnbc70]

Is there any people on here who were in favour of independence but voted to leave the EU? If so, how would you vote in a future Indy ref?

Not myself but someone I know voted Yes in the Indy Ref and then Leave on Thursday. He said he would vote No in another Indy Ref if a Yes vote was a full push into Europe and the Euro.

[Smartie]

Not myself but someone I know voted Yes in the Indy Ref and then Leave on Thursday. He said he would vote No in another Indy Ref if a Yes vote was a full push into Europe and the Euro.

It's not that unreasonable a position to take.

Any new Indyref campaign can take nothing and no-one for granted.

I've been aware of some previous "no" voters becoming more vocal and more entrenched in their position.

Whilst it has been very interesting to hear of people changing their positions over the past few days (notably Malcolm Chisholm and Henry McLeish) there will be a lot of people who will still need convinced that Independence is the answer.

[RyeSloan]

I'd actually like to use the Euro, or at least work towards it.

Why? Seriously I would be very interested in your thoughts as to how that would be beneficial to Scotland and what advantages it would give over the retention of the pound.

[#FromTheCapital]

Why? Seriously I would be very interested in your thoughts as to how that would be beneficial to Scotland and what advantages it would give over the retention of the pound.

The euro is an absolute shambles, has been for a long time and more than likely will continue to be. It's funny hearing people saying they'd now like to use it, whereas in 2014 almost everybody wanted to avoid it like the plague.

[High-On-Hibs]

The euro is an absolute shambles, has been for a long time and more than likely will continue to be. It's funny hearing people saying they'd now like to use it, whereas in 2014 almost everybody wanted to avoid it like the plague.

The pound looked considerably more appealing in 2014......

[#FromTheCapital]

The pound looked considerably more appealing in 2014......

And I believe it will pick up again in time. The drop was always going to happen in the event of Brexit. The euro on the other hand has proven that it just doesn't work.

[High-On-Hibs]

And I believe it will pick up again in time. The drop was always going to happen in the event of Brexit. The euro on the other hand has proven that it just doesn't work.

You believe it will pick up again in time. Not everybody shares your optimism. The euro on the hand actually is picking up and has been on the mend since the crash. So clearly it can work.

[#FromTheCapital]

You believe it will pick up again in time. Not everybody shares your optimism. The euro on the hand actually is picking up and has been on the mend since the crash. So clearly it can work.

Can you provide evidence of this? I don't think it can work. Too many different countries with different values and cultures involved in it.

[RyeSloan]

You believe it will pick up again in time. Not everybody shares your optimism. The euro on the hand actually is picking up and has been on the mend since the crash. So clearly it can work.

You never answered my question previously but we will try again.

Most developed nations have been attempting to devalue their currency since 2008. Japan has an official policy of trying to weaken the Yen why then do you assume a strengthening currency relative to others is automatically a good thing?

The accepted method of correcting a huge balance of payments deficit like the UK has is to weaken your currency. It promotes inwards investment (assets are cheap relative to others in their currency terms) and boosts experts (your products become more competitive price wise to others) while reducing imports (they become more expensive).

So now that we have established a weaker pound might not actually signify the pound is 'weak' in the general sense of the word why do you think that the Euro would be beneficial to Scotland as its currency?

[AndyM_1875]

Why don't we have our own currency? Always been my preferred option.

Agree. I would go with a Scottish Pound. We have no need to adopt the Euro although businesses can and should be able to adopt the Euro. Croatia uses the Kuna and it's a stable currency.
I think NS will have this worked out in advance of a new Indyref as it was what sunk the last one. She's far more astute than Salmond IMHO.

[ronaldo7]

Why? Seriously I would be very interested in your thoughts as to how that would be beneficial to Scotland and what advantages it would give over the retention of the pound.

It's actually my personal position. If you speak to any Economists out there, or those who say they are, I'm sure you'd get several different reasons to go one way or the other.

Scottish Pound
Uk Pound
Euro

You could make a case for all of them, and I'm sure as soon as you did, someone else with a different opinion would say its Pish.:greengrin

[grunt]

Agree. I would go with a Scottish Pound.


Scottish Pound
Uk Pound
Euro

You could make a case for all of them, and I'm sure as soon as you did, someone else with a different opinion would say its Pish.:greengrin
There's no such thing as a Scottish Pound. It's sterling. With a Scottish picture on it.

[ronaldo7]

There's no such thing as a Scottish Pound. It's sterling. With a Scottish picture on it.

My Scottish pound was in reference to the discussions on here about which currency we should have when we go Indy.:aok:

[RyeSloan]

It's actually my personal position. If you speak to any Economists out there, or those who say they are, I'm sure you'd get several different reasons to go one way or the other. Scottish Pound Uk Pound Euro You could make a case for all of them, and I'm sure as soon as you did, someone else with a different opinion would say its Pish.:greengrin

I ken its your personal position...I was curious as to WHY that was your position, surely you have some reasoning behind it rather than 'just because' ;-)

[ronaldo7]

I ken its your personal position...I was curious as to WHY that was your position, surely you have some reasoning behind it rather than 'just because' ;-)

I holiday alot:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

I holiday alot:greengrin

Aye very good :-)

So you don't want to share your reasoning...fair enough, I do hope your party is somewhat more forthcoming on the subject though as its a rather fundamental one. And I must say that I'm a touch surprised as you are not normally quite as coy... ;-)

[ronaldo7]

Aye very good :-)

So you don't want to share your reasoning...fair enough, I do hope your party is somewhat more forthcoming on the subject though as its a rather fundamental one. And I must say that I'm a touch surprised as you are not normally quite as coy... ;-)

It's a long time, 2 years.:wink:

[Pretty Boy]

I see the SNP have added another 2000+ members over the weekend.

Some Scottish Lib Dem members also reported to be planning to lobby the leadership to support a 2nd independence referendum.

Whatever your view on all of this no one can argue politics is boring.