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View Full Version : NHC Are Messi and Ronaldo the greatest?



Paloschi
15-06-2016, 09:03 AM
After watching Portugal last night I made an observation about Ronaldo and it got me thinking about Messi too.

There is no doubt both are amazing players, the best right now but their international careers got me thinking. Will Ronaldo or Messi ever win a major tournament with their countries like Pele and Maradona? I'm not so sure. Of course comparing Portugal to the likes of previous Brazil teams is unfair but can you really say a team like Portugal shouldn't go far in a tournament? also in Messi's case you could argue that Argentina now have a better side than the one Maradona played in with the likes of Aguero, Higuain and Mascherano.

I seen Ronaldo play for himself last night and miss his countries best chance. Messi on the biggest stage with Argentina often plays in a similar selfish way. Is it that they think they can do it better themselves? I know they both deliver week in and week out with the two greatest club teams on the planet but they do play with the worlds best in their team. Could Messi take Napoli to a serie A like Maradona? Would Ronaldo achieve a similar feat with a weaker club? I'm doubtful. He did achieve at United but they also had an amazing squad at the time.

Riquelme springs to mind at Villarreal. He almost carried the club to a champions league final as a team player with good players around him. I know it was club level but the achievement is comparable to what Ronaldo or Messi could do on an international scene.

Pele and Maradona are world champions. Ronaldo and Messi? We shall see....

Scouse Hibee
15-06-2016, 09:08 AM
Of their generation...probably

Best ever........NO

JimBHibees
15-06-2016, 09:10 AM
After watching Portugal last night I made an observation about Ronaldo and it got me thinking about Messi too.

There is no doubt both are amazing players, the best right now but their international careers got me thinking. Will Ronaldo or Messi ever win a major tournament with their countries like Pele and Maradona? Im not do sure. Of course comparing portugal to the likes of previous Brazil teams is unfair but can you really say a team like Portugal shouldnt go far in a tournament? also in Messi's case you could argue that Argentina now have a better side than the one Maradona played in with the likes of Aguero, Higuain and Mascherano.

I seen Ronaldo play for himself last night and miss his countries best chance. Messi on the biggest stage with Argentina often plays in a similar selfish way. Is it that they think they can do it better themselves? I know they both deliver week in and week out with the two greatest club teams on the planet but they do play with the worlds best in their team. Could Messi take Napoli to a serie A like Maradona. Would Ronaldo achieve a similar feat with a weaker club? I'm doubtful. He did achieve at United but they also had an amazing squad at the time.

Riquelme springs to mind at Villarreal. He almost carried the club to a champions league final as a team player with good players around him. I know it was club level but the achievement is comparable to what Ronaldo or Messi could do on an international scene.

Pele and Maradona are world champions. Ronaldo and Messi? We shall see....

Dont think Messi is anywhere near as selfish as Ronaldo.

Agree with what you are saying and both have got to the finals in International competitions only to lose. It can still happen however would think Argentina more chance than Portugal though they did miss a huge opportunity in Brazil.

RoxburghHibs
15-06-2016, 09:10 AM
Maradona for me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w21dkqtBwXk

Finn2015
15-06-2016, 09:11 AM
Best ever, probably not. Fwiw, I've seen Messi compared to maradona a lot and for me, Diego M was better

Mon Dieu4
15-06-2016, 09:14 AM
Bit harsh on Messi, he lost a world cup final in extra time, for what it's worth I think Maradona is the greatest player of all time, but Messi's stats and achievements speak for themselves and he still has years left in his career

Onceinawhile
15-06-2016, 09:15 AM
That's a complete misnomer though.

Does it mean cruyff and best weren't any good?

Puskas or de Stefano?

JeMeSouviens
15-06-2016, 09:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fzeK3SQa4

makaveli1875
15-06-2016, 09:24 AM
zidane and ronaldinho sit above ronaldo , not sure about messi

--------
15-06-2016, 09:34 AM
Short answer - of course not. A player can only claim to be the greatest player of his generation; anyone who saw Pele play for Brazil, Maradona for Argentina, or Puskas and di Stefano for Real Madrid, probably reckons that these men were the greatest of their time.

And in my opinion, all four were absolutely better than either Messi or Ronaldo.

(But that's my opinion, and only my opinion.)

But I will say this - not one of those players - nor Messi - has ever demonstrated the petulance and arrogance and nastiness Ronaldo demonstrated last night after the Iceland game:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/14/portugal-iceland-euro-2016-match-report

"Iceland didn't try anything. They were just defend, defend, defend and playing on the counterattack. It was a lucky night for them. We should have three points but we are OK. I thought they'd won the Euros the way they celebrated at the end. It was unbelievable. When they don't try to play and just defend, defend, defend, this in my opinion shows a small mentality and they are not going to do anything in the competition."

He may be a very skillful footballer, but he is what he's always has been - a petty, whining prima donna who needs his backside kicked. And I'd say he must be a world expert on 'small mentalities'.

Portugal stink - they have the dirtiest player in the tournament (Pepe), and the whiniest (Ronaldo). I so hope they fail to progress.

GreenNWhiteArmy
15-06-2016, 09:35 AM
the greatest player i've seen is Zidane. that guy was on another planet

in terms of greatest ever - i may only be 26 but I've always said the same thing. You cannot compare era's - it is impossible. how can you compare Pele and Maradona with Messi & Ronaldo? life was completely different back when they played. Lifestyle/pitches/football/footwear. Now look at the players nowadays. Messi was given meds to aid his growth deficiency, Ronaldo takes all kind of supplements. even take it down to the way the body recovers compared to previous era's.

People will always claim their era as the best. I'd personally rather just enjoy what I've got in front of me without having to compare and contrast

DH1875
15-06-2016, 09:38 AM
Of their generation...probably

Best ever........NO

This :agree:. Maradona for me.

bob12345
15-06-2016, 09:40 AM
zidane and ronaldinho sit above ronaldo , not sure about messi

Agree on Zidane. Ronaldinho was frightening at his best but it only lasted 6-7 years IMO.

wookie70
15-06-2016, 09:41 AM
I don't think either of them is the greatest ever. Both are fantastic players but they play in an era with no tackling from the rear and where they can dive when they lose control and win a free kick.The ball is light so easier to hit and the pitches are like bowling greens. Lots of Ronaldos work is unnecessary and just show boating. I would take a Best, Maradonna or Pele over both of them by a margin but much of this may be a romantic view.

Brightside
15-06-2016, 09:42 AM
Messi is the best ever by miles. Ronaldo far too selfish and self obsessed.

Time For Heroes
15-06-2016, 09:42 AM
Ronaldo quoted as saying he's the best over the last 20 years.... he's up there, but not for me.

JeMeSouviens
15-06-2016, 09:48 AM
Kari Arnason (ex-Aberdeen) obviously picked up some local expressions during his time in Scotland. :greengrin

http://www.goal.com/euro2016/en/article/iceland-hero-arnason-hits-back-at-sore-loser-ronaldo/18kophjajmcnu1wdan76pz55u2

Hibs90
15-06-2016, 09:49 AM
Ronaldo quoted as saying he's the best over the last 20 years.... he's up there, but not for me.

Ronaldo is over hyped.

Messi is the greatest of all time.

JeMeSouviens
15-06-2016, 09:49 AM
I don't think either of them is the greatest ever. Both are fantastic players but they play in an era with no tackling from the rear and where they can dive when they lose control and win a free kick.The ball is light so easier to hit and the pitches are like bowling greens. Lots of Ronaldos work is unnecessary and just show boating. I would take a Best, Maradonna or Pele over both of them by a margin but much of this may be a romantic view.

Otoh, defences are much fitter and for the most part better organised.

hibee_girl
15-06-2016, 09:51 AM
Kari Arnason (ex-Aberdeen) obviously picked up some local expressions during his time in Scotland. :greengrin

http://www.goal.com/euro2016/en/article/iceland-hero-arnason-hits-back-at-sore-loser-ronaldo/18kophjajmcnu1wdan76pz55u2

:faf:

we are hibs
15-06-2016, 09:55 AM
Messi is the greatest player to ever kick a football. Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't even come close. He isn't even the best Ronaldo imo

easty
15-06-2016, 10:04 AM
Ronaldo is over hyped.



He definitely isn't. 260 goals in 236 games for Real Madrid.

I'm not sure who I'd say is the better player between Messi and Ronaldo. They're both brilliant.

Here's a list of both their records, you can't seriously read down that list of achievements and say he's over hyped.

http://messivsronaldo.net/records/

jacomo
15-06-2016, 10:22 AM
I also think Messi could be the best player of all time.

Impossible and futile to compare across eras, of course, but the level of dedication and sacrifice to get to the top these days is higher than ever. Maradona was a great player, but also a playboy. Not a chance he could have maintained that lifestyle and succeeded in today's game.

Of course winning the World Cup would be huge, and Messi and Ronaldo will possibly have only one more chance to do that.

But if Messi had chosen a Spanish passport as a teenager, he'd have probably won a lot more.

Kato
15-06-2016, 10:26 AM
Messi is the best ever by miles. Ronaldo far too selfish and self obsessed.

As wookie70 says it would be interesting to see him in an "old school" game with old school tackling and referees - in the era when men were men and women were men as well.

Rule changes are for the better imho, giving these guys a platform to show the beautiful side of the game but Pele, Maradonna, Garincha, Eusabio, Cryuff et al, all played at a time when it was far harder to perform and entertain but they managed it. Ronaldo, for one, wouldn't survive those games.

GreenCastle
15-06-2016, 10:28 AM
Messi is best ever - seeing him live and weekly in Spainish football and national games has shown this.

You don't have to win the euros or World Cup to be crowned the greatest - plenty special players haven't managed this and plenty average players have won trophies just being in the squad.

I've always said its how Messi and Ronaldo finish thier careers will be really interesting as Messi I feel will be able to adapt more as more creative where as Ronaldo looses the explosive speed and he's lost a key strength.

Craig_in_Prague
15-06-2016, 10:29 AM
Chic Charnley for me.

easty
15-06-2016, 10:32 AM
As wookie70 says it would be interesting to see him in an "old school" game with old school tackling and referees - in the era when men were men and women were men as well.

Rule changes are for the better imho, giving these guys a platform to show the beautiful side of the game but Pele, Maradonna, Garincha, Eusabio, Cryuff et al, all played at a time when it was far harder to perform and entertain but they managed it. Ronaldo, for one, wouldn't survive those games.

I think Ronaldo would be more likely to survive those games, the guy is a machine. Aye he dives about, and whines like ****, but that's because, unfortunately, the games went that way, and by doing those things you get your team an advantage.

ChrissyG1875
15-06-2016, 10:38 AM
Zidane
Messi
Ronaldo

In that order, in my opinion. I can't speak for Cruyff, Maradona etc.. as they where much before my time so have only seen them in videos

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

jacomo
15-06-2016, 10:39 AM
As wookie70 says it would be interesting to see him in an "old school" game with old school tackling and referees - in the era when men were men and women were men as well.

Rule changes are for the better imho, giving these guys a platform to show the beautiful side of the game but Pele, Maradonna, Garincha, Eusabio, Cryuff et al, all played at a time when it was far harder to perform and entertain but they managed it. Ronaldo, for one, wouldn't survive those games.

The tackles might have been rough but they had space because the game was so much slower.

As I said above, Messi (and Ronaldo) are far, far fitter than those stars from years ago. Far fitter. Those cloggers wouldn't get anywhere near them!

ChrissyG1875
15-06-2016, 10:42 AM
Zidane
Messi
Ronaldo

In that order, in my opinion. I can't speak for Cruyff, Maradona etc.. as they where much before my time so have only seen them in videos

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
In fact, scrap that.

McGinn
Zidane
Messi
Ronaldo

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

lyonhibs
15-06-2016, 10:53 AM
The original Ronaldo in my lifetime, then Zidane, then Messi, then the whole SC Winning team, then Sauzee, Latapy and Zitelli, then CR7.

Maradona best of all time but I only ever saw the coke fiend USA 94 version play.

calumhibee1
15-06-2016, 10:58 AM
Messi is the best ever. Ronaldo is a distant second best. I understand what people say about how nutrition etc has came on etc and that if Pele, Maradona etc had access to the training, nutrition etc that these guys do that they'd have been better. And that may be the case. But they didn't have access to it. If you dropped Messi and Ronaldo in their current form into football in the 1970s nobody would be able to get anywhere near them, they'd be chasing shadows. They'd be way too fast, way too powerful, and way too fit. I'd even go as far to say if you dropped someone like Pele into 2016 he'd totally struggle against the athletic defenders such as Boateng, Hummels, Paul Hanlon and Ramos these days. Maradona maybe not so much, but even then the advances in the human body would probably mean he'd struggle aswell. Footballers nowadays while they're maybe not better technically (although even then, from watching old footage of football games and seeing how awkward some players look compared to now I'd argue they are) are physically streets ahead of the players of the past. It would defy logic for them not to be.

MWHIBBIES
15-06-2016, 10:59 AM
Messi will probably win a major international tournament in the next few weeks.

WeeRussell
15-06-2016, 11:44 AM
Messi is best ever - seeing him live and weekly in Spainish football and national games has shown this.

You don't have to win the euros or World Cup to be crowned the greatest - plenty special players haven't managed this and plenty average players have won trophies just being in the squad.

I've always said its how Messi and Ronaldo finish thier careers will be really interesting as Messi I feel will be able to adapt more as more creative where as Ronaldo looses the explosive speed and he's lost a key strength.

Agreed - on every single bit. :aok:

chinaman
15-06-2016, 11:51 AM
Maradona
Messi
Cruyff
Put Messi or Ronaldo in the napoli serie a winning, or argentine world cup winning teams , could they have won them ? No chance. MARADONA was football's greatest son

leither17
15-06-2016, 12:00 PM
Chic Charnley for me.

Exactly have you ever saw either of they two pretenders score from the halfway line?

cmcd
15-06-2016, 12:20 PM
As wookie70 says it would be interesting to see him in an "old school" game with old school tackling and referees - in the era when men were men and women were men as well.

Rule changes are for the better imho, giving these guys a platform to show the beautiful side of the game but Pele, Maradonna, Garincha, Eusabio, Cryuff et al, all played at a time when it was far harder to perform and entertain but they managed it. Ronaldo, for one, wouldn't survive those games.
Couldn't agree more

Haymaker
15-06-2016, 12:26 PM
As wookie70 says it would be interesting to see him in an "old school" game with old school tackling and referees - in the era when men were men and women were men as well.

Rule changes are for the better imho, giving these guys a platform to show the beautiful side of the game but Pele, Maradonna, Garincha, Eusabio, Cryuff et al, all played at a time when it was far harder to perform and entertain but they managed it. Ronaldo, for one, wouldn't survive those games.


Neither Ronaldo nor Messi would have survived in the era of Maradonas/peles etc as they are now.

Had they grown up in said era and that was the norm then Ronaldo would have survived because that is what you had to put up with at the time. He doesn't and shouldn't have to put up with it in the modern game where he actually plays.

Haymaker
15-06-2016, 12:29 PM
Maradona best of all time but I only ever saw the coke fiend USA 94 version play.

Was Ephedrine he was caught for, not Cocaine.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
15-06-2016, 12:30 PM
I don't think either of them is the greatest ever. Both are fantastic players but they play in an era with no tackling from the rear and where they can dive when they lose control and win a free kick.The ball is light so easier to hit and the pitches are like bowling greens. Lots of Ronaldos work is unnecessary and just show boating. I would take a Best, Maradonna or Pele over both of them by a margin but much of this may be a romantic view.


Its an impossible debate, but one i love!

I read somewhere that the ball is the same weight as it has always been, its just old fashioned balls got heavier when wet. Im not sure that would apply to Maradona though.

And the points you make demonstrate why its so difficult to compare - yes the points you make are correct, but also defenders are much better and more physical, more detailed, it is probably more tactical etc

I always loved Maradona, but i once read a blog that basically blew apart his career and showed that in terms of stats, he is not even close to Messi, but also that he didnt have anything like the impact upon the teams he played for than you might think.

The problem with these stats is that they ignore that football is often about art too. The skills and elegance of a player matters, the artistry with which they play. Messi ticks all of these boxes, and is as close to Maradona in style as i have seen.

Ronaldo is like a blunt instrument, he is direct, ruthless, and often artless. He is the epitome of a modern footballer - everything is about the output (and about him, but thats a different debate). I htink that diminshes football, which is of course supposed to be the beautiful game, not just a statistical game of chess.

macd123
15-06-2016, 12:42 PM
David Gray

Haymaker
15-06-2016, 12:46 PM
David Gray

You cant put mere mortals against a Titan man! :greengrin

Hakim Sar
15-06-2016, 01:17 PM
Zidane for me.

People only talk down on Ronaldo because they don't like him. He is a goal scoring phenom and one of the best players ever.

MWHIBBIES
15-06-2016, 01:23 PM
Zidane for me.

People only talk down on Ronaldo because they don't like him. He is a goal scoring phenom and one of the best players ever.Yep, Ronaldo would be one of the very best in any era. Exceptional player.

jgl07
15-06-2016, 01:31 PM
Ronaldinho has the greatest ego.

calumhibee1
15-06-2016, 02:48 PM
Zidane for me.

People only talk down on Ronaldo because they don't like him. He is a goal scoring phenom and one of the best players ever.

Yup. I don't particularly like Ronaldo and I don't think he's as good as Messi but for me the stats speak for himself. He's without a doubt the best player ever after Messi IMO.

--------
15-06-2016, 02:49 PM
Chic Charnley for me.


Certainly one of the greatest bampots ever to play football. :agree:

Mr White
15-06-2016, 02:55 PM
Pele, Zidane and Messi: All great players and great sportsmen too.

Maradona & C Ronaldo: Great players. Not so much with the sportsmanship.

heretoday
15-06-2016, 03:08 PM
Eusebio.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 03:08 PM
Puskas

heretoday
15-06-2016, 04:05 PM
Denis Law.

danhibees1875
15-06-2016, 04:09 PM
David Gray.

Scouse Hibee
15-06-2016, 06:19 PM
In my lifetime and in my mind

1. King Kenny Dalglish
2. Pele
3. Messi