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hughio
15-06-2016, 08:57 AM
If you go off to Turkey for loadsamoney its a big mistake.
How is your Turkish?

Stay and see your contract out.You will have a winning year and be in the shop window for bigger and better things.You might even get a lucrative further deal from Hibs and a crack at the SPL title next year..

makaveli1875
15-06-2016, 09:00 AM
cummings in turkey is an accident waiting to happen , surely no one in their right mind would advise him to go there

Betty Boop
15-06-2016, 09:08 AM
cummings in turkey is an accident waiting to happen , surely no one in their right mind would advise him to go there

How come ?

Cocaine&Caviar
15-06-2016, 09:09 AM
And let him go for free next year?

Sign a new deal or sell him.

Finn2015
15-06-2016, 09:12 AM
And let him go for free next year?

Sign a new deal or sell him.

This 100%

GreenPJ
15-06-2016, 09:13 AM
And let him go for free next year?

Sign a new deal or sell him.

:agree:

NorthNorfolkHFC
15-06-2016, 09:13 AM
Surely they'll offer over £1 mil for him


"A friend of mine once said he liked his women like his parmesan: strong smelling and shaved"

Rasta_Hibs
15-06-2016, 09:19 AM
Who is in for him?

Edinburgher
15-06-2016, 09:28 AM
Who is in for him?
Trabzonspor apparently.

cabbageandribs1875
15-06-2016, 09:30 AM
Listen to me jason



don't see your contract out, all the pre-signing talks in the winter transfer window will result in a 25-pager of how poorly your playing, the thought of all the extra £££'s you will be earning elsewhere will turn your head a bit




start the bidding

Rasta_Hibs
15-06-2016, 09:30 AM
Trabzonspor apparently.

Better watch himself oot there being a wee blonde!

DH1875
15-06-2016, 09:34 AM
Anything over £500k and I'd sell him.

Diclonius
15-06-2016, 09:40 AM
Listen to me Jason.

If the Turks are offering > £1 million for you, good luck and have fun over there.

Time For Heroes
15-06-2016, 09:43 AM
Anything over £500k and I'd sell him.

this

The_Todd
15-06-2016, 09:49 AM
If he's not staying and Hibs get decent money for him then why not? It cannot do Scottish football any harm to have its players out getting experience of other leagues and I certainly wouldn't be talking promising players out of getting some experience.

Of course I'd rather he signed a new contract and stayed put but I'd rather see him doing well abroad than ending up on an Old Firm bench.

Finn2015
15-06-2016, 10:04 AM
Just worries me though if he goes, that's him and stokes gone from last season. Would need to get decent quality forward in ASAP

biotech
15-06-2016, 10:28 AM
We should keep him regardless of the fact he'd leave for free at the end of his contract. Critical season for both the club and the player. It's unlikely we'd fined a 20+ goals replacement. Additionally, I genuinely believe he would benefit from Lennon`s management style/experience. It would make a better player and a more mature individual.

nellio
15-06-2016, 10:42 AM
Sell him. If the bid is good enough let him go. I'm confident Lennon can find another quality striker and Keatings when fit and given a run of games can score enough IMO.

Bristolhibby
15-06-2016, 10:47 AM
Just worries me though if he goes, that's him and stokes gone from last season. Would need to get decent quality forward in ASAP

"Keatings on Fire"!!

biotech
15-06-2016, 10:52 AM
He should speak to Gary O`Conner about his experiences of "foreign travel".

MWHIBBIES
15-06-2016, 11:04 AM
He'd be back in Scotland within 18 months if he goes to Turkey. Hope we get a good deal and spend it wisely.

Waxy
15-06-2016, 11:06 AM
He needs to sign an extension with us. The end.

The_Todd
15-06-2016, 11:07 AM
He should speak to Gary O`Conner about his experiences of "foreign travel".

Or maybe he should speak to Paul Lambert about "foreign travel". It's not being abroad that's the problem, it's British players. With the right attitude and application it'd benefit our international sides greatly if our youngsters weren't afraid of going out of their comfort zone.

scoopyboy
15-06-2016, 11:10 AM
He'd be back in Scotland within 18 months if he goes to Turkey. Hope we get a good deal and spend it wisely.

18 weeks would be my bet.

I would only sell to Turks if we got the full transfer fee up front as I wouldn't trust them to pay regularly.

Good luck to Jason trying to get his wages out of them as well.

Peevemor
15-06-2016, 11:10 AM
Or maybe he should speak to Paul Lambert about "foreign travel". It's not being abroad that's the problem, it's British players. With the right attitude and application it'd benefit our international sides greatly if our youngsters weren't afraid of going out of their comfort zone.

Exactly - it depends on the mentality and personality of the individual. concerned

snooky
15-06-2016, 11:20 AM
He should speak to Gary O`Conner about his experiences of "foreign travel".

After winning the Russkie cup, Moscow Loco were 'throwing money at him' Gaz once said, IIRC.
Sometimes you've got to take a leap of faith and jump off the springboard instead of just standing still, staring at the water.

Andy74
15-06-2016, 11:26 AM
This is the least bothered I've ever been about maybe losing a striker with his record. I've just never taken to him. If we can get some cash I think Lennon could make good use of it.

Vini1875
15-06-2016, 12:18 PM
I would rather he signed an extension and stayed a year or two when we would get really good money. I don't think he is much of player, but knows how to score and with a good strike partner I think could score a lot more. 20 goals in the Premier league would see his value go up, which would be good from our point of view. However is another year in the championship going help Jason's development? I would say no and a challenge abroad whe he has no attachments might help him grow hugely as a player and as a human being, it wouldn't hurt his bank balance either.

SunshineOnLeith
15-06-2016, 12:24 PM
Want him to stay, obviously.

But going to a decent Turkish club shows a lot more ambition than lazily listing along the M8 like so much of Scotland's young talent, so fair play to him if he fancies it.

Ozyhibby
15-06-2016, 12:28 PM
Taking away the fact that it's a Hibs player, I find the attitude to foreign travel on this thread a little bit sad.



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ano hibby
15-06-2016, 12:42 PM
Would be very funny if we get £1m+ for him and Hearts had a sell on fee of 5%.
Rod could then write a Dear Anne letter:

Dear Anne,
I am writing to enclose a cheque for £50,000. This is 5% of the transfer value of Jason Cummings. I hope you would agree this is a win-win situation for both our clubs. Hearts get a value for developing the player for a few years prior to him scraping his leg on a bar at Saughton skatepark. Hibs will receive £950,000.00 in cash compensation for selling our top scorer of the last few years and the scorer of some vital goals in our recent cup runs. Maybe you've been able to follow his progress..?
Get it right roond yous and thanks again,
Pleasure doing business.
You'rs in sport,
Your moustachioed counterpart,
Rod

PS Thanks for releasing James Keatings too. He popped up for a vital goal in our recent Scottish Cup winning run.

Nb I'm well aware JC was released not signed :)

JimBHibees
15-06-2016, 12:47 PM
Or maybe he should speak to Paul Lambert about "foreign travel". It's not being abroad that's the problem, it's British players. With the right attitude and application it'd benefit our international sides greatly if our youngsters weren't afraid of going out of their comfort zone.

Couldnt agree more it is usually the players attitude themselves. What was it Ian Rush said when he joined Juverntus, "Living in Italy is like being in a foreign country." :greengrin

Spudster
15-06-2016, 12:59 PM
If he leaves at the end of contract do we get a development fee for him as he's under 24 (ie John McGinn) or has he not been here long enough? Cant find a definitive answer anywhere for this.

NAE NOOKIE
15-06-2016, 01:00 PM
Taking away the fact that it's a Hibs player, I find the attitude to foreign travel on this thread a little bit sad.



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I don't think its foreign travel that's concerning folk, its foreign travel and Jason Cummings.

The perception of Jason rightly or wrongly is that he is a wee bit immature, based on that perception the jury is out with most folk as to whether he could make a go of a transfer to an English club, never mind a club abroad and especially one where the culture and lifestyle is very different from Scotland.

Getting up to a million quid for JC would undoubtedly be good business for Hibs and getting a wage packet probably at least 4 times what he gets here would certainly be good for JC's bank balance ..... But if he ends up unable to settle to the lifestyle and struggles to get a game, or score when he does, it could have a bad psychological affect on him as a person.

Nobody wants to see another young Hibs player end up like Gary O'Connor and I think its important that Hibs and the folk advising JC think of him as a person rather than a commodity .... the least they ( his advisors ) can do is ensure that if JC does end up on a good contract he puts money into a fund of some type that he cant touch until he reaches 30 or is forced to retire early, whichever comes first.

Anyway .... FWIW I think Jason should sign on at Hibs for another 2 years on top of the year he has left. It wont stop offers coming in for him if he continues to develop and will give him time to mature as a player and more importantly as a person.

lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 01:09 PM
It amazes me that people would be so happy to allow a striker that's scored so many goals leave! His record for such a young striker is phenomenal and he is only going to improve. Maybe he should go and find a club that appreciates what a talent he is. Fans singing you hearts ******* at him when he missed the penalty against Dundee Utd should hang their heads in shame.

J-C
15-06-2016, 01:27 PM
Don't know what truth there is in this but I'm pretty sure the management will be very capable, no new contract, then off to the highest bidder.

The_Exile
15-06-2016, 01:32 PM
Who was the English lad that Trabsonspor signed a few years back? Kevin Campbell was it? Didn't they sacrifice a goat in the centre circle to welcome him to the club on his debut or something? Could be an interesting move for Jase, can't imagine what it'd be like playing in an Istanbul derby atmosphere. Would make an old firm game look like a trip down Balamory.

Baw187
15-06-2016, 01:49 PM
This is the least bothered I've ever been about maybe losing a striker with his record. I've just never taken to him. If we can get some cash I think Lennon could make good use of it.

I'm with you Andy. Think he flatters to deceive and the fact he wasn't more prolific last season ultimately contributed to us dropping points. Yes he was capable of producing some magic and getting a goal from nowhere but I still reckon Keatings playing in the striker role week in week out would have been better foil for Stokes as he plays off the shoulder and gets in to positions where he can score. Cunmings comes too deep and gives himself too much to do.

Just my opinion.


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KWJ
15-06-2016, 02:22 PM
There was some discussion on the previous Cummings thread after I asked about tribunal fees. It was felt that we'd get next to nowt if he went to another country, including England.

But here's Brighton having to pay 200k to a player that's played 19 times for Motherwell http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2016/06/14/ben-hall-departs-for-brighton/

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14556721.__200k_fee_offers_comfort_to_Motherwell_a s_trio_move_closer_to_re_signing/

Cummings could still raise a decent fee going by that even if we kept him this season.

Bay Area Hibees
15-06-2016, 02:30 PM
500k would be a travesty. Should be $1m at least. He's not technically great and very one footed BUT he's scored lots goals and despite fact we don't get lots balls in box.

2 year or 3 year extension or $1m please.

easty
15-06-2016, 02:41 PM
It amazes me that people would be so happy to allow a striker that's scored so many goals leave! His record for such a young striker is phenomenal and he is only going to improve. Maybe he should go and find a club that appreciates what a talent he is. Fans singing you hearts ******* at him when he missed the penalty against Dundee Utd should hang their heads in shame.

Totally agree with you.

I'd be disappointed to only get a million for him, though I'd much rather keep him than sell him. Far better player than Keatings.

Michael
15-06-2016, 02:43 PM
500k would be a travesty. Should be $1m at least. He's not technically great and very one footed BUT he's scored lots goals and despite fact we don't get lots balls in box.

2 year or 3 year extension or $1m please.

Isn't $1m like a fiver in Sterling? Make it £1m and I'd sell!

eastmainsmsh
15-06-2016, 02:44 PM
Who was the English lad that Trabsonspor signed a few years back? Kevin Campbell was it? Didn't they sacrifice a goat in the centre circle to welcome him to the club on his debut or something? Could be an interesting move for Jase, can't imagine what it'd be like playing in an Istanbul derby atmosphere. Would make an old firm game look like a trip down Balamory.

Yes Campbell and the chairman called him a cannibal lol after Boyd and Kenny millers spell in turkey would be best avoided perhaps

KWJ
15-06-2016, 02:47 PM
Isn't $1m like a fiver in Sterling? Make it £1m and I'd sell!

More like 700k GBP, and probably a lot more in 8 days time :wink:

hibsbollah
15-06-2016, 02:47 PM
He should speak to Gary O`Conner about his experiences of "foreign travel".

Are you saying Scottish players shouldn't move abroad? That's s bit parochial is it not?

Turkey would probably be a fantastic experience for him. I just don't think he'd be good enough.

Spudster
15-06-2016, 03:38 PM
There was some discussion on the previous Cummings thread after I asked about tribunal fees. It was felt that we'd get next to nowt if he went to another country, including England.

But here's Brighton having to pay 200k to a player that's played 19 times for Motherwell http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2016/06/14/ben-hall-departs-for-brighton/

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/14556721.__200k_fee_offers_comfort_to_Motherwell_a s_trio_move_closer_to_re_signing/

Cummings could still raise a decent fee going by that even if we kept him this season.

Kind of answered my question, Cheers.

£200k for a 19 year old out of contract player with: 19 first team games, 1 U17 international cap

So in comparison 20 year old Jason has 86 first team games, 6 U21 caps. So he should go for considerably more at the end of next season. Folk claiming that we should take £500k now know the new rules worse than me it would seem!

snooky
15-06-2016, 03:49 PM
Who was the English lad that Trabsonspor signed a few years back? Kevin Campbell was it? Didn't they sacrifice a goat in the centre circle to welcome him to the club on his debut or something? Could be an interesting move for Jase, can't imagine what it'd be like playing in an Istanbul derby atmosphere. Would make an old firm game look like a trip down Balamory.
Hopefully Chic Young will be in Turkey to cover Jase's first game. :wink:

NAE NOOKIE
15-06-2016, 03:49 PM
It amazes me that people would be so happy to allow a striker that's scored so many goals leave! His record for such a young striker is phenomenal and he is only going to improve. Maybe he should go and find a club that appreciates what a talent he is. Fans singing you hearts ******* at him when he missed the penalty against Dundee Utd should hang their heads in shame.

Eh?

greenlex
15-06-2016, 03:54 PM
His agent is playing a blinder here.

Smartie
15-06-2016, 03:55 PM
Yes Campbell and the chairman called him a cannibal lol after Boyd and Kenny millers spell in turkey would be best avoided perhaps

Was there not an issue with Boyd or Miller getting paid? Or am I maybe even thinking of Mikey Stewart?

I'm pretty sure there are clubs and countries that don't think twice about not paying you if you're not playing/ doing the business, in spite of your contract.


Personally I'd love to see a young Scottish player make a move overseas and be a roaring success. I find our parochial nature and backward approach to travel almost embarrassing.

Tweedie had some fun over in Greece though by all accounts. I seem to remember Brewster did well too.

Turkey and Jason Cummings could be an interesting and volatile combination.

silverhibee
15-06-2016, 03:56 PM
18 weeks would be my bet.

I would only sell to Turks if we got the full transfer fee up front as I wouldn't trust them to pay regularly.

Good luck to Jason trying to get his wages out of them as well.


If he wasn't paid for 18 weeks in a row then he would be able to leave the club and move to another club and leave it in the hands of FIFA to make sure his contract is honoured, sure that was the case with Boyd Stewart and a few others, maybe even Kenny Miller, but it would be a must to get any fee upfront for Cummings as they just wouldn't pay the amount if we agreed to pay it over a year, we would get one payment and that would be it.

Would be surprised if he ended up in Turkey.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 03:59 PM
It's unbelievable that some people still mourn the loss of Malonga, and seem not bothered about Cummings going...who has scored more goals in two seasons than Malonga has scored in his whole career......would be a loss for us...first time we have had a natural poacher for years and years...


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heretoday
15-06-2016, 04:00 PM
Malonga! Come back to Easter Road!

Viva_Palmeiras
15-06-2016, 04:27 PM
2 words looping header.

biotech
15-06-2016, 04:35 PM
Are you saying Scottish players shouldn't move abroad? That's s bit parochial is it not?

Turkey would probably be a fantastic experience for him. I just don't think he'd be good enough.

Nothing in my post to suggest no Scottish player should move abroad. It depends on the individual, stage in career, ability etc. However, can see parallels between O'Connor's career and the path Cummings may take. Did moving to Russia help O'Connor's career - I don't think it did.

TheGreenMan
15-06-2016, 04:37 PM
His agent is playing a blinder here.

This.

Contract negotiation politics.

Waxy
15-06-2016, 04:38 PM
I think it's been great having a player with Jasons personality. Scores and is right in the oppositions faces about it.Espesh the maroon ones. Very entertaining. I want us to keep him.

TheGreenMan
15-06-2016, 04:40 PM
Not too fussed either way.

If he stays then good, he should score 25 goals. If that means we lose out on some money but get promoted then so be it.

If we sell we get cash and I'm sure Lennon will be able to attract someone of a high enough standard to replace those goals

Sean1875
15-06-2016, 04:44 PM
Nothing in my post to suggest no Scottish player should move abroad. It depends on the individual, stage in career, ability etc. However, can see parallels between O'Connor's career and the path Cummings may take. Did moving to Russia help O'Connor's career - I don't think it did.

I wouldn't say it did his career any harm at all. the cocaine and partying however..

Jamesie
15-06-2016, 04:45 PM
He should speak to Gary O`Conner about his experiences of "foreign travel".

Or speak to Michael Stewart about the pros and cons of playing in Turkey. He had a bit of a hard time getting his wages paid from what I recall.

Craig_in_Prague
15-06-2016, 04:48 PM
Or speak to Michael Stewart about the pros and cons of playing in Turkey. He had a bit of a hard time getting his wages paid from what I recall.

Similar down Gorgie way.

LustForLeith
15-06-2016, 05:01 PM
Taking away the fact that it's a Hibs player, I find the attitude to foreign travel on this thread a little bit sad.



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Was it Ian Rush who said when he was asked about his stint in Italy "I don't like it, they all spoke a foreign language..."

SunshineOnLeith
15-06-2016, 05:11 PM
Or speak to Michael Stewart about the pros and cons of playing in Turkey. He had a bit of a hard time getting his wages paid from what I recall.

Would you advise foreign players against moving to any Scottish club based on Hearts not paying wages?

Keith_M
15-06-2016, 05:22 PM
I don't think people are saying he shouldn't move abroad, more that the complete change of culture might be more difficult to adapt to. You can hardly compare a move to Germany to a move to Turkey.

Also, he's still really young, so moving to another country might not be best just now. A move to England, one the other hand, might be ideal.

wookie70
15-06-2016, 05:24 PM
If Jason plays in the same amount of games this year as he did last he will again get 25 goals or thereabouts imo. I seriously doubt we will find a replacement who will score that many. He has improved year on year and I see that continuing. He is faster and sharper and is holding it up better. Why Hibs fans want to see the back of him is absolutely beyond me. I would take a punt and put him on very good money at Hibs and add a couple of years to his contract. I suspect it would be money well spent and end up with us making more money.

sambajustice
15-06-2016, 05:32 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

bingo70
15-06-2016, 05:39 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

I've been saying that for a while.

It's a team game and I think a lot of people, including Cummings, forget that sometimes. I felt he played for himself a lot of the time (penalty in the semi case in point). That may be why Ive never really liked him that much. His stats are phenomenal and shouldn't really argue with them but I just never really think he's playing that well and that has to have an impact on the team, even if he is scoring.

In terms of playing for himself I wondered if that was why he rarely scored more than one in a game, not sure if he was guilty of switching off after he got his goal or not but it may be a factor?

wookie70
15-06-2016, 05:45 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

Keats got 11 in 29 appearances, two ahead of him with 12 were Zeefuik and Sow(1 in the up) who were essentially a 23 goal a season striker as they played 37 league games between them.

Bob1875
15-06-2016, 05:46 PM
Get rid of him, more interested in playing big time footballer off the field than doing anything on it. Imo desperate for the big money move, concentrate on players who are dedicated to Hibs such as Hanlon.

wookie70
15-06-2016, 05:53 PM
I've been saying that for a while.

It's a team game and I think a lot of people, including Cummings, forget that sometimes. I felt he played for himself a lot of the time (penalty in the semi case in point). That may be why Ive never really liked him that much. His stats are phenomenal and shouldn't really argue with them but I just never really think he's playing that well and that has to have an impact on the team, even if he is scoring.

In terms of playing for himself I wondered if that was why he rarely scored more than one in a game, not sure if he was guilty of switching off after he got his goal or not but it may be a factor?

He certainly could improve his number of assists but out and out poachers don't tend to be providers. Interesting stats for the championship shows quite a few of the leading scorers don't provide many goals for their team mates. To me the role of a striker is to get in the box as much as he can. That was the main reason I couldn't stand James Collins he spend the whole game back to goal running towards his own goal. Cummings knows where the onion bag is and very importantly is not afraid of missing. He needs to continue to get better and I am sure he will on the evidence of the last few seasons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-championship/top-scorers

3pm
15-06-2016, 06:17 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

That's fine if we have the potential to spread them about, it doesn't look like we do at the moment IMO.

KWJ
15-06-2016, 06:21 PM
He certainly could improve his number of assists but out and out poachers don't tend to be providers. Interesting stats for the championship shows quite a few of the leading scorers don't provide many goals for their team mates. To me the role of a striker is to get in the box as much as he can. That was the main reason I couldn't stand James Collins he spend the whole game back to goal running towards his own goal. Cummings knows where the onion bag is and very importantly is not afraid of missing. He needs to continue to get better and I am sure he will on the evidence of the last few seasons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-championship/top-scorers

And he got an assist in the Scottish Cup Final :agree:

He's 20 year old, so much more time to develop other parts of his game. For now though, his finishing is crucial to Hibs.

DAVE1875
15-06-2016, 06:24 PM
Fans burning down their team's own stadium because they got relegated is enough for me to think "Well, **** that" when it comes to Turkey

nellio
15-06-2016, 06:29 PM
Get rid of him, more interested in playing big time footballer off the field than doing anything on it. Imo desperate for the big money move, concentrate on players who are dedicated to Hibs such as Hanlon.

Pretty much my feelings, when you add in the fact we could get a significant amount of money for him now or lose him for nothing next summer.

MyJo
15-06-2016, 06:30 PM
Best thing all round would be for Jason to sign a new contract, spend another couple of years with us and look to get a move once he has helped us get back to the premiership and spent at least a year in the SPL proving himself at that level.

If he does not want to sign a new contract with us then our best option would be to let him move on, get £500k to £750k out of the transfer to reinvest in the squad and get us out of this league.

SunshineOnLeith
15-06-2016, 06:30 PM
If Jason was "one of our own" rather than a boyhood Hearts fan there's no way he'd get so much flak from Hibs fans. It's really quite pathetic.

Finn2015
15-06-2016, 06:33 PM
If Jason was "one of our own" rather than a boyhood Hearts fan there's no way he'd get so much flak from Hibs fans. It's really quite pathetic.

Sad if that is true mate seeing as he has scored a few against hearts. Doesn't matter who he supported before. I'd rather he stayed tbh but if he is going I'd rather it happened quickly so we can have optimum time bring a replacement in. He'd go with my best wishes FWIW

sambajustice
15-06-2016, 06:46 PM
That's fine if we have the potential to spread them about, it doesn't look like we do at the moment IMO.

Kris Commons will sort that... :greengrin

Jonnyboy
15-06-2016, 06:48 PM
Was it Ian Rush who said when he was asked about his stint in Italy "I don't like it, they all spoke a foreign language..."

I think Rush said, when asked how he felt playing for Juve, "It's like playing in a foreign country"

lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 06:50 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

We had keatings last season and he wasn't good enough to get a regular start. Our problem isn't that Cummings doesn't score enough, it's that the rest of the team weren't helping out with a few goals.

lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 06:51 PM
Get rid of him, more interested in playing big time footballer off the field than doing anything on it. Imo desperate for the big money move, concentrate on players who are dedicated to Hibs such as Hanlon.

If Hanlon had been offered a big money move, he would have taken it.

scoopyboy
15-06-2016, 06:56 PM
If Hanlon had been offered a big money move, he would have taken it.

You know him that well do you?

If he had pursued the interest shown in him from different clubs there is no doubt he would have earned a fair bit more than he resigned for with us for.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 07:03 PM
Do we need a 25 goal a season strikers? Hertz were banging 4s , 5s and 10s and won the league at a canter!

Was keatings not their top scorer with 10 or 12?

Is this a joke?? This is the panacea...every club in the world is searching for one - we have one, and a bunch of our fans don't care....it's bonkers...


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bingo70
15-06-2016, 07:07 PM
Is this a joke?? This is the panacea...every club in the world is searching for one - we have one, and a bunch of our fans don't care....it's bonkers...


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Hearts have unfortunately been consistently been better than us in recent years, any idea who there last 20 goal a season striker was? I've no idea.

Keith Wright and Darren Jackson were excellent players for us, don't think either ever scored 20 in a season though?

Having two players that score 10 is better than one scoring 20 IMO.

Stokesy's on fire
15-06-2016, 07:07 PM
Jason Cunmings has scored some amount of key goals for this club and he managed to "flip the script" in a thrilling Scottish cup match at Tynecastle he then scored the winner against them in the replay! We went on to win the cup and he played a massive part in delivering that precious cup! So to all of you who are wishing him away...wise up! Cunmings has played his heart out for this club!

21.05.2016
15-06-2016, 07:15 PM
If they are offering over 1m as some people are speculating then tbh i'd snap their hand off.

Waxy
15-06-2016, 07:20 PM
Jason is worth much more to us in our team. He is already the 20+goal a season all teams are looking for as has been said already and we have him under contract in our year of need. Honestly think Neil Lennon will not want him to leave.

SunshineOnLeith
15-06-2016, 07:21 PM
We've got one of the most exciting prospects in Scottish football, a 20 year old kid who's scored over 20 goals in each of the last two seasons.

But nah, he's got a haircut and fancies himself a bit, get rid :rolleyes:

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 07:23 PM
Hearts have unfortunately been consistently been better than us in recent years, any idea who there last 20 goal a season striker was? I've no idea.

Keith Wright and Darren Jackson were excellent players for us, don't think either ever scored 20 in a season though?

Having two players that score 10 is better than one scoring 20 IMO.

And I tell you what, I can't recall a Hearts striker in recent years that I would have wanted in our team...they have been better because of other players...not because of their low scoring strikers....do you seriously think they have not been trying to secure some strikers with a goal average like Cummings?


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lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 07:23 PM
You know him that well do you?

If he had pursued the interest shown in him from different clubs there is no doubt he would have earned a fair bit more than he resigned for with us for.

I don't know him at all. My point wasn't that he would leave for more money, it was that I think all football players would leave hibs for a big money move to a big club down south.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 07:29 PM
I don't know him at all. My point wasn't that he would leave for more money, it was that I think all football players would leave hibs for a big money move to a big club down south.

I'm guessing that someone who knows him has just informed you that , in this case, that is not true....he has chosen to stay with Hibs for less money than elsewhere


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Andy74
15-06-2016, 07:31 PM
And I tell you what, I can't recall a Hearts striker in recent years that I would have wanted in our team...they have been better because of other players...not because of their low scoring strikers....do you seriously think they have not been trying to secure some strikers with a goal average like Cummings?


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They take a slightly different approach. Some strikers may not score a lot themselves but they bring others into the game so the team overall score more goals.

If we have one striker getting a few goals but virtually no one else getting any then the way you play needs looked at. We haven't been scoring nearly enough.

I'm not fussed about Cummings. I think we might end up as a better team with different types of players up front.

lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 07:32 PM
I'm guessing that someone who knows him has just informed you that , in this case, that is not true....he has chosen to stay with Hibs for less money than elsewhere


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If Man Utd wanted to sign him, do you think he'd stay at hibs?

bingo70
15-06-2016, 07:33 PM
And I tell you what, I can't recall a Hearts striker in recent years that I would have wanted in our team...they have been better because of other players...not because of their low scoring strikers....do you seriously think they have not been trying to secure some strikers with a goal average like Cummings?


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I think their midfielders and wingers have scored more goals because they've had strikers up front that played for the team, hold the ball up and play with their back to the goal to bring other players into the game.

Would Hearts like to have a 20 goal a season striker? Yes of course they would. Would they want one at the expense of the same amount of goals being scored from other players on their team? I doubt it.

Anyway I'm not in the business of promoting anything hearts, just trying to make the point it's a team game and scoring goals doesn't need to be from one individual.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 07:35 PM
If Man Utd wanted to sign him, do you think he'd stay at hibs?

That's not the point though...it appears that he has had better offers to move on, and he has chosen to stay...a very unusual story for us..normally our players are off at a whiff of a better deal. Even more credit to Paul Hanlon for me.....


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bigwheel
15-06-2016, 07:38 PM
I think their midfielders and wingers have scored more goals because they've had strikers up front that played for the team, hold the ball up and play with their back to the goal to bring other players into the game.

Would Hearts like to have a 20 goal a season striker? Yes of course they would. Would they want one at the expense of the same amount of goals being scored from other players on their team? I doubt it.

Anyway I'm not in the business of promoting anything hearts, just trying to make the point it's a team game and scoring goals doesn't need to be from one individual.

I have not seen anything by JC that has limited the goals from other positions....if that's the point your making.

My point is I find it weird there is a love in for the likes of Malonga from some, who contributed a fraction of what Cummings has...Cummings goal against Hearts in the cup at Tynie..was technical as high quality as Boyle's volley ...he is a talent we will miss when he goes...


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lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 07:41 PM
That's not the point though...it appears that he has had better offers to move on, and he has chosen to stay...a very unusual story for us..normally our players are off at a whiff of a better deal. Even more credit to Paul Hanlon for me.....


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I'm not criticising Paul Hanlon or suggesting he didn't have better offers. My point was more about footballers at our level. Playing for hibs isn't the pinnacle of a players career anymore. There will obviously be exceptions.

GreenNWhiteArmy
15-06-2016, 07:57 PM
My feelings for the majority of last season were that Jase should sign a contract extension and stay with us for at least 2 more years. Ideally that would have been a year in the premiership then in the 2nd year really giving it a go and aiming to finish above Aberdeen. I felt after the derby his attitude changed.if he feels he's too big for hibs then sell now. £1m isn't bring unrealistic imo.

As a player he has so much improvements to make to his game. The lack of a right peg being one and hold up play another. If he ever harbours ambitions of playing international football then he has a long long way to go.

Talented player no doubt, will he fancy another year in the championship when his agent will be telling him he can earn 3/4 times as much at another club? Would love Lennon to come in and tell him to screw the nut, score 30 goals and help us romp the league. Sadly I feel he will leave and in 5/6 years time be struggling to get a team to take him on.

scoopyboy
15-06-2016, 07:57 PM
I don't know him at all. My point wasn't that he would leave for more money, it was that I think all football players would leave hibs for a big money move to a big club down south.

There's nothing to say in the fullness of time he won't move down south to a big club, in a way I would like to see this happen because it would mean he had improved as a player and Hibs would get a transfer fee if it was when he was still in contract.

Timing was a lot to do with it as well, got married on Friday and getting signed up yesterday meant he could get away to Majorca for a few days honeymoon before starting back next Thursday at East Mains. You could also add in he is a life long fan of our club and wants as much pleasure as possible about being a cup final winner and all the trimmings that go with it.

lord bunberry
15-06-2016, 08:08 PM
There's nothing to say in the fullness of time he won't move down south to a big club, in a way I would like to see this happen because it would mean he had improved as a player and Hibs would get a transfer fee if it was when he was still in contract.

Timing was a lot to do with it as well, got married on Friday and getting signed up yesterday meant he could get away to Majorca for a few days honeymoon before starting back next Thursday at East Mains. You could also add in he is a life long fan of our club and wants as much pleasure as possible about being a cup final winner and all the trimmings that go with it.
I would also like to see him get a big move, he seems like a nice lad and he's a cracking defender. If he doesn't I'm sure he'll get a testimonial.

Iceman1875
15-06-2016, 08:15 PM
I've got a funny feeling Jason will sign on for another year so contracted until summer 2018.

If we lose him it dents our hopes next season regardless who NL is hoping to bring in.


At Easter Road we play...

Finn2015
15-06-2016, 08:35 PM
I've got a funny feeling Jason will sign on for another year so contracted until summer 2018.

If we lose him it dents our hopes next season regardless who NL is hoping to bring in.


At Easter Road we play...

Yip hoping, maybe forlornly, that Lennon may sway him to stay on for a bit. Fingers crossed

Bostonhibby
15-06-2016, 08:39 PM
Our start point for Jason has to be extending his contract, keeping the potential for all those goals and maybe more next season in our locker for the campaign ahead, its a no brainer for me, the hammer of the yams ever since he joined us - mad as a brush but developing, if we can't get a deal done he goes with my thanks, cost us nowt and brought plenty.

SON OF PADDY
15-06-2016, 08:44 PM
Best thing all round would be for Jason to sign a new contract, spend another couple of years with us and look to get a move once he has helped us get back to the premiership and spent at least a year in the SPL proving himself at that level.

If he does not want to sign a new contract with us then our best option would be to let him move on, get £500k to £750k out of the transfer to reinvest in the squad and get us out of this league.


Correct on all counts 😁

wookie70
15-06-2016, 08:48 PM
Hearts have unfortunately been consistently been better than us in recent years, any idea who there last 20 goal a season striker was? I've no idea.

Keith Wright and Darren Jackson were excellent players for us, don't think either ever scored 20 in a season though?

Having two players that score 10 is better than one scoring 20 IMO.

Depends on how many the other striker next to the 20 a year man scores. I can't think of any other 20 a goal strikers at any club that the fans want rid of. He isn't the best all round player to goalscoring strikers rarely are. He scored a goal every two games last year and that is roughly his career stats. Stokes was one in three, Keatings and Malonga were one in three and a half. We wont replace Cummings goals if he leaves imo with one player. We will have to change the whole strikeforce and possibly the midfield too. I would rather have progression than wholesale change.

I do agree that if he wants out then we should cash in as the money will be important going forward. That would be dependent on a bid of £750K plus for me otherwise I would keep him and hope we get the money via him contributing to our promotion

Andy74
15-06-2016, 08:49 PM
I have not seen anything by JC that has limited the goals from other positions....if that's the point your making.

My point is I find it weird there is a love in for the likes of Malonga from some, who contributed a fraction of what Cummings has...Cummings goal against Hearts in the cup at Tynie..was technical as high quality as Boyle's volley ...he is a talent we will miss when he goes...


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Malonga was one of the most gifted players to play for us for some time. He held the ball in brilliantly and brought others in the game. He also scored goals but not as many.

Id take Malonga over Cummings in a team every day of the week.

Suggest you look at some of Dom's goals if you think he wasn't capable of strikes like Boyle's or Cummings'.

I think Cummings is a talent but not one that would have a big impact on us if he goes.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 08:58 PM
Malonga was one of the most gifted players to play for us for some time. He held the ball in brilliantly and brought others in the game. He also scored goals but not as many.

Id take Malonga over Cummings in a team every day of the week.

Suggest you look at some of Dom's goals if you think he wasn't capable of strikes like Boyle's or Cummings'.

I think Cummings is a talent but not one that would have a big impact on us if he goes.

I know Malonga was a talent...I watched him too...he had some magnificent impact on games...I also saw him have plenty of low impact games too...he was a mixed performer..I never see you post about those games - which were as frequent as his good games,

His stats as a striker are at best average, his goals occasionally outstanding...at times, a joy to watch, and at times easy to substitute.
Some of the reasons he was not a constant starter.

Cummings is not as easy on the eye as Malonga as a player, he will end up with much better stats than Dom...


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Bostonhibby
15-06-2016, 08:59 PM
Malonga was one of the most gifted players to play for us for some time. He held the ball in brilliantly and brought others in the game. He also scored goals but not as many.

Id take Malonga over Cummings in a team every day of the week.

Suggest you look at some of Dom's goals if you think he wasn't capable of strikes like Boyle's or Cummings'.

I think Cummings is a talent but not one that would have a big impact on us if he goes.

Agree with you re Malonga, there always has to be a place in a Hibs team for a talented player who can do what he does. Terrific football and reader of a game.

Smartie
15-06-2016, 09:03 PM
I know Malonga was a talent...I watched him too...he had some magnificent impact on games...I also saw him have plenty of low impact games too...he was a mixed performer..I never see you post about those games - which were as frequent as his good games,

His stats as a striker are at best average, his goals occasionally outstanding...at times, a joy to watch, and at times easy to substitute.
Some of the reasons he was not a constant starter.

Cummings is not as easy on the eye as Malonga as a player, he will end up with much better stats than Dom...


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Cummings will get decent stats as long as he plays with players of Malonga's quality.

This position is Lennon's biggest challenge for me. Is it enough to have one player who scores a lot of goals or do you need more players scoring more goals?

He needs to work out how to link the midfield and strikers and get us creating and taking enough chances.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 09:07 PM
Cummings will get decent stats as long as he plays with players of Malonga's quality.

This position is Lennon's biggest challenge for me. Is it enough to have one player who scores a lot of goals or do you need more players scoring more goals?

He needs to work out how to link the midfield and strikers and get us creating and taking enough chances.

Cummings will play with better players than Malonga...

I loved Malonga, he was mercurial ...sometimes brilliant, but he seems to be one of those players that gets better the longer he has gone...

He by no means made JC....and Stubbs would almost always choose Cummings over him....


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wookie70
15-06-2016, 09:10 PM
If Jason does go it will be fascinating to read back on this thread. Will we sell and go on to win the league with lots of contributions from all over the park or another prolific striker. I hope so but I fear if he goes we may struggle even more for goals and might kick ourselves if we cash in. The best scenario for me is get a Brewster type in. Someone who will get 10-15 goals, can play with his back to goal and is a clever player. If we had one of them I could see Jason scoring in the thirties. Why not try and hold on to our good players and supplement them with players who complement them.

bigwheel
15-06-2016, 09:12 PM
If Jason does go it will be fascinating to read back on this thread. Will we sell and go on to win the league with lots of contributions from all over the park or another prolific striker. I hope so but I fear if he goes we may struggle even more for goals and might kick ourselves if we cash in. The best scenario for me is get a Brewster type in. Someone who will get 10-15 goals, can play with his back to goal and is a clever player. If we had one of them I could see Jason scoring in the thirties. Why not try and hold on to our good players and supplement them with players who complement them.

This, this and this......


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Smartie
15-06-2016, 09:15 PM
Cummings will play with better players than Malonga...

I loved Malonga, he was mercurial ...sometimes brilliant, but he seems to be one of those players that gets better the longer he has gone...

He by no means made JC....and Stubbs would almost always choose Cummings over him....


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Cummings was significantly better during the first half of the season than the second and I reckon a good bit of that was down to Malonga. I didn't actually rate their partnership last season but I thought they were good until Malonga left this season.

A couple of weeks before he left I stated on here that Malonga was the first name on my team sheet - he was different. He WAS mercurial and he had a unique something that you don't see often enough.

Cummings is a very good player and I'd be very happy to see him stay for longer. But I think he's predominantly a finisher, like Keatings and like Stokes. If we had all of these players I would pick Malonga and any one of the other 3 every day of the week, just my preference.

It will be interesting to see how Lennon approaches it.

Smartie
15-06-2016, 09:21 PM
If Jason does go it will be fascinating to read back on this thread. Will we sell and go on to win the league with lots of contributions from all over the park or another prolific striker. I hope so but I fear if he goes we may struggle even more for goals and might kick ourselves if we cash in. The best scenario for me is get a Brewster type in. Someone who will get 10-15 goals, can play with his back to goal and is a clever player. If we had one of them I could see Jason scoring in the thirties. Why not try and hold on to our good players and supplement them with players who complement them.

Yep, I agree with this.

Or if Jason left a Brewster-type could play up there with Boyle and Keatings and the three would get 15 each. McGinn might get the same. Our centre-halves are good for a few goals, Lewis gets some and Sir David of Gray might plant the odd injury-time winner in the back of the net.

Our lack of goals through the team was the reason why we ultimately failed to achieve what we needed to in the league. Not killing teams off gave teams hope and heaped pressure on our defence.

B.H.F.C
15-06-2016, 09:23 PM
Cummings will get decent stats as long as he plays with players of Malonga's quality.

This position is Lennon's biggest challenge for me. Is it enough to have one player who scores a lot of goals or do you need more players scoring more goals?

He needs to work out how to link the midfield and strikers and get us creating and taking enough chances.

Think it was quite telling how Lennon spoke about getting players in to suit the league we are in. I fully expect to see a striker who is more of a Mixu than a Malonga.

For me, I think we stand a better chance of scoring more goals by keeping Cummings and getting someone else in to play up top with him. Someone that will do the other things we talk about like bringing midfielders in to the game and so on. It doesn't need to be one or the other.

Scott Allan Key
15-06-2016, 09:31 PM
Similar down Gorgie way.

Exactly, I don't trust these Scots...

Forza Fred
15-06-2016, 09:40 PM
I think, for reasons unknown, that some players are lucky to find themselves at a club where the chemistry would just not be repeated at any other club.

I think this is the Situation with Hibs and Jason.

Hibs have been good for Jason and Jason has been good for Hibs.

Whether he would bag anywhere near the number of goals he has for us, I am not sure about.

I am aware of much older and experienced players having difficulty adjusting to the culture and social isolation in some countries, and I think Turkey and Jason do not seem a good fit...bit like Deeks and China.

greenlex
16-06-2016, 02:26 AM
20plus goals or not if someone offered north of 1m we should take it. We could get two 15plus strikers in for that I reckon.

bigwheel
16-06-2016, 06:08 AM
20plus goals or not if someone offered north of 1m we should take it. We could get two 15plus strikers in for that I reckon.

I think 1m would be unachievable in the last year of his contract.....more likely to be 5-600k.

I'll never understand the lack of support for keeping JC....he is as good a natural goal scorer as we have had in living memory..id want to keep him for years. Let him break as many goal records as possible.

We have had players, with much less impact, who still get a love in on these boards....will always confuse me this one. He is definitely someone who has created a mixed set of views. I think he will be missed when he is gone.




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J-C
16-06-2016, 09:06 AM
I think 1m would be unachievable in the last year of his contract.....more likely to be 5-600k.

I'll never understand the lack of support for keeping JC....he is as good a natural goal scorer as we have had in living memory..id want to keep him for years. Let him break as many goal records as possible.

We have had players, with much less impact, who still get a love in on these boards....will always confuse me this one. He is definitely someone who has created a mixed set of views. I think he will be missed when he is gone.




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Again, I don't see anyone actually saying they don't want to keep him or support him but he is in his final year and has yet to sign the offer Hibs have made and if he's of a mind to leave, then we should be getting as much as possible and move on, there are other strikers out there.

bigwheel
16-06-2016, 09:09 AM
Again, I don't see anyone actually saying they don't want to keep him or support him but he is in his final year and has yet to sign the offer Hibs have made and if he's of a mind to leave, then we should be getting as much as possible and move on, there are other strikers out there.

Fair enough. But my point is there are quite a few that are pretty non-plussed about whether he stays or goes - which for me is quite different than how fans felt about others who had much poorer records ...

J-C
16-06-2016, 10:29 AM
Fair enough. But my point is there are quite a few that are pretty non-plussed about whether he stays or goes - which for me is quite different than how fans felt about others who had much poorer records ...


It happens, people have their favourites, some loved Malonga and others thought he was a lazy git, Jason is a young fairly talented striker, scores goals but is still a long way away from being the player he thinks he is.

Andy74
16-06-2016, 10:37 AM
Fair enough. But my point is there are quite a few that are pretty non-plussed about whether he stays or goes - which for me is quite different than how fans felt about others who had much poorer records ...

You are focusing on records though - stats - they don't really tell you why people do or don't rate players. You get all sorts of different strikers and players in general and you can't tell most of that from records.

Also, continuing the Malonga example - the overall records in terms of goals per game are not that far apart - according to the wiki stats its about 2.2 for Cummings and 2.5 for Malonga.

Malonga also played about half of the amount of games. Cummings took a bit of time to get up to the scoring rate he is at now - perhaps Malonga would have got even more up to speed with another 30 to 40 games in the championship?

bigwheel
16-06-2016, 10:56 AM
You are focusing on records though - stats - they don't really tell you why people do or don't rate players. You get all sorts of different strikers and players in general and you can't tell most of that from records.


I can understand it - Malonga is the type that would make me pay my entry fee. Gets you off your seat. I loved watching him, fond memories .

They are both strikers though , and stats count - their main job is to make and take chances. Stats show that JC is better at that than Malonga , and by a significant percentage - not even close

To be honest - I can understand that people have favourites - I'm by no means JCs biggest fan - but I think we will miss his goals -

it's also evident that many people have not taken to JC in the way people took to say , Riordan, or even going back to the likes of Tam McManus. Still a big favourite with fans - it's this psychology that I find interesting .

JC is as good a goals scorer we have signed for possibly decades - and people seem pretty mixed about whether he stays or goes ... Remains a bit of a mystery to me .

jacomo
16-06-2016, 11:35 AM
I can understand it - Malonga is the type that would make me pay my entry fee. Gets you off your seat. I loved watching him, fond memories .

They are both strikers though , and stats count - their main job is to make and take chances. Stats show that JC is better at that than Malonga , and by a significant percentage - not even close

To be honest - I can understand that people have favourites - I'm by no means JCs biggest fan - but I think we will miss his goals -

it's also evident that many people have not taken to JC in the way people took to say , Riordan, or even going back to the likes of Tam McManus. Still a big favourite with fans - it's this psychology that I find interesting .

JC is as good a goals scorer we have signed for possibly decades - and people seem pretty mixed about whether he stays or goes ... Remains a bit of a mystery to me .

:agree:

The biggest question mark for next season is where the goals are going to come from.

If we lose JC, we lose 25 goals from the team, and are left with only Keatings as an option who has decent experience in this division. Not a great situation.

tamig
16-06-2016, 11:41 AM
:agree:

The biggest question mark for next season is where the goals are going to come from.

If we lose JC, we lose 25 goals from the team, and are left with only Keatings as an option who has decent experience in this division. Not a great situation.
New strikers will be arriving though. Who that is, we will just have to wait and see.

Enough said
16-06-2016, 02:38 PM
Totally agree with you.

I'd be disappointed to only get a million for him, though I'd much rather keep him than sell him. Far better player than Keatings.

This

Waxy
16-06-2016, 02:43 PM
Cummings loves a goal against the jambos.

Big L
16-06-2016, 03:48 PM
If Jason was "one of our own" rather than a boyhood Hearts fan there's no way he'd get so much flak from Hibs fans. It's really quite pathetic.

Sad to say, but if he was "one of our own" he'd probably give us another year or two to help get us out of this league!

TRIALIST
16-06-2016, 03:50 PM
Cummings loves a goal against the jambos.

He has loads of goals still to score in this league, he's daft if he takes bad advice about leaving now.
It would be the worst move he could make, he is still work in progress as a footballer.
I suppose its down to signing an extension, if he does not all the usuals will be after him including the huns.
Mind you after seeing the performances of our two strikers in the final up close they would be daft not to take Stokesy....oh wait maybe not.:wink:

jacomo
16-06-2016, 04:02 PM
New strikers will be arriving though. Who that is, we will just have to wait and see.

Well of course they will.

Any new signing is a risk, though. JC delivers the goods.

cmcd
16-06-2016, 04:43 PM
I think 1m would be unachievable in the last year of his contract.....more likely to be 5-600k.

I'll never understand the lack of support for keeping JC....he is as good a natural goal scorer as we have had in living memory..id want to keep him for years. Let him break as many goal records as possible.

We have had players, with much less impact, who still get a love in on these boards....will always confuse me this one. He is definitely someone who has created a mixed set of views. I think he will be missed when he is gone.




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Perhaps in you're lifetime but not mine

Smartie
16-06-2016, 04:44 PM
I reckon a Mixu/ Brewster type with Keatings and Boyle playing every week in a front 3 would do just fine.

Boyle and Keatings on the correct sides mind - I hate this cutting in on their good foot nonsense.

bigwheel
16-06-2016, 06:23 PM
I reckon a Mixu/ Brewster type with Keatings and Boyle playing every week in a front 3 would do just fine.

Boyle and Keatings on the correct sides mind - I hate this cutting in on their good foot nonsense.

Boyle a regular starter. No thanks - great squad player - and can be a top notch impact at times - but a backward step if that is the quality of our regular first eleven

Big L
17-06-2016, 09:07 AM
JC and his agent having dinner with Lennon in Paris tonight, Lenny trying to get him to stay, obviously! Hibs apparently interested in 33yr old dobbie.

SJM
17-06-2016, 09:22 AM
I hope this gets concluded quickly after the Allan **** last year. New contract, take it or wish him all the best.

Dobbie would score goals in this league as he's done previously. Technically gifted and pace has never been his strong point regardless.

Brightside
17-06-2016, 09:24 AM
I'm pretty sure he will be away. So lets get the money and get on with it.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:25 AM
Fair enough. But my point is there are quite a few that are pretty non-plussed about whether he stays or goes - which for me is quite different than how fans felt about others who had much poorer records ...

I would be one.

And i cant think of many (any?) poorer players i would have felt differently about?

Records don't count for everything - i watch football players, i don't read excel spreadsheets. Guys like Mixu or Brewster will have poorer goalscoring records yet were far better and more important players.

I hope Cummings stays, but i have no doubt we can improve the attacking unit of the team (if not his exact number of goals) if he goes.

Also, his record is entirely based on first division football. Kenny Deuchar had a great goal scoring record in the first division. Those who live by stats...

bigwheel
17-06-2016, 09:30 AM
I would be one.

And i cant think of many (any?) poorer players i would have felt differently about?

Records don't count for everything - i watch football players, i don't read excel spreadsheets. Guys like Mixu or Brewster will have poorer goalscoring records yet were far better and more important players.

I hope Cummings stays, but i have no doubt we can improve the attacking unit of the team (if not his exact number of goals) if he goes.

Also, his record is entirely based on first division football. Kenny Deuchar had a great goal scoring record in the first division. Those who live by stats...

I'm assuming you are talking about Brewster for Dunfermline? As the Craig Brewster for us scored 3 goals in 25 games....

I think in cup games and vs Rangers, Cummings has more than proved his ability to score against top league opposition




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Andy74
17-06-2016, 09:52 AM
I'm assuming you are talking about Brewster for Dunfermline? As the Craig Brewster for us scored 3 goals in 25 games....

I think in cup games and vs Rangers, Cummings has more than proved his ability to score against top league opposition




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Quoting Brewster's goals suggests that you are rather missing the points being made about different types of strikers and what they bring to the team.

Say for example the team overall score 50 goals for the year and we have a striker in there who scored 25 goals.

If we could get the team scoring 75 goals but the best any striker has scored was 15 then we would take that all day long.

That's what some strikers bring - they take the ball in, they buy time to get it back to midfielders, they get it out to wingers, you get midfielders making the runs to the box more often and the team scores more goals overall.

Jason would probably play quite well with a player like that - so would Keatings. This is why you'll find that people aren't that concerned about Jason possibly going - we may not replace him with a striker who individually gets as many goals but we could get better partnerships that mean as a team we score more goals.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:58 AM
I'm assuming you are talking about Brewster for Dunfermline? As the Craig Brewster for us scored 3 goals in 25 games....

I think in cup games and vs Rangers, Cummings has more than proved his ability to score against top league opposition

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No i was meaning brewster for hibs. His poor goals record was my point, his impact and influence on thw team was immense.

Yes he has proved he can score against top league teams, but he hasnt proved he can be a consistent scorernin the top league.

This is my point though, you cant just say 'look at his record' becauae that reduces football to stats, and its obviously far more than that. I agree with you that cumminhs would still score in top league (althoufh not as many) but if someone is pointing only to his record, then they also have to concede that his record is entirely lower league goals.

Stats work both ways

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 10:03 AM
Quoting Brewster's goals suggests that you are rather missing the points being made about different types of strikers and what they bring to the team.

Say for example the team overall score 50 goals for the year and we have a striker in there who scored 25 goals.

If we could get the team scoring 75 goals but the best any striker has scored was 15 then we would take that all day long.

That's what some strikers bring - they take the ball in, they buy time to get it back to midfielders, they get it out to wingers, you get midfielders making the runs to the box more often and the team scores more goals overall.

Jason would probably play quite well with a player like that - so would Keatings. This is why you'll find that people aren't that concerned about Jason possibly going - we may not replace him with a striker who individually gets as many goals but we could get better partnerships that mean as a team we score more goals.

Thats what i was trying to say but not as well!

The Cummings / Brewster analogy is a good one, because they are almost exact opposites - Brewster was a brilliant all round player but his goals return was poor. Cummings is kind of the opposite.

Whod be a manager eh

bigwheel
17-06-2016, 10:14 AM
Quoting Brewster's goals suggests that you are rather missing the points being made about different types of strikers and what they bring to the team.

Say for example the team overall score 50 goals for the year and we have a striker in there who scored 25 goals.

If we could get the team scoring 75 goals but the best any striker has scored was 15 then we would take that all day long.

That's what some strikers bring - they take the ball in, they buy time to get it back to midfielders, they get it out to wingers, you get midfielders making the runs to the box more often and the team scores more goals overall.

Jason would probably play quite well with a player like that - so would Keatings. This is why you'll find that people aren't that concerned about Jason possibly going - we may not replace him with a striker who individually gets as many goals but we could get better partnerships that mean as a team we score more goals.

No, not missing the point at all, appreciate the condescension though. Brewster was a great foil for McManus and others - but actually spent most of his second half of season out Injured. We got him fit then gave him a free - a mad decision, even at the time...that was my Brewster point...we didn't see the best of him.

You and others somehow don't seem to rate Cummings goals, yet, as you point out , he is doing all this without a Brewster/Mixu type beside him - imagine what he could score if he did have....


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SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=bigwheel;4734235]No, not missing the point at all, appreciate the condescension though. Brewster was a great foil for McManus and others - but actually spent most of his second season out Injured. We got him fit then gave him a free - a mad decision, even at the time...that was my Brewster point...we didn't see the best of him.

You and others somehow don't seem to rate Cummings goals, yet, as you point out , he is doing all this without a Brewster/Mixu type beside him - imagine what he could score if he did have....


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Iys not that i dont rate his goals, but as the spearhead of a team that has consistently not scored enough goals, and who anyone can see is one of poorer players in our team regarding technique and team play, and who has been completely unable to form a potent attacking partnership with any other player we have, im willing to consider that a better attacking unit might serve us better than one vert good scorer but who contributes very little to the play of the team

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 10:23 AM
[QUOTE=bigwheel;4734235]No, not missing the point at all, appreciate the condescension though. Brewster was a great foil for McManus and others - but actually spent most of his second season out Injured. We got him fit then gave him a free - a mad decision, even at the time...that was my Brewster point...we didn't see the best of him.

You and others somehow don't seem to rate Cummings goals, yet, as you point out , he is doing all this without a Brewster/Mixu type beside him - imagine what he could score if he did have....


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Iys not that i dont rate his goals, but as the spearhead of a team that has consistently not scored enough goals, and who anyone can see is one of poorer players in our team regarding technique and team play, and who has been completely unable to form a potent attacking partnership with any other player we have, im willing to consider that a better attacking unit might serve us better than one vert good scorer but who contributes very little to the play of the team


Also just to reiterate i would prefer him to sign a new contract, ultimately it is cummings who WANTS to leave at the moment.

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 11:37 AM
No, not missing the point at all, appreciate the condescension though. Brewster was a great foil for McManus and others - but actually spent most of his second half of season out Injured. We got him fit then gave him a free - a mad decision, even at the time...that was my Brewster point...we didn't see the best of him.

You and others somehow don't seem to rate Cummings goals, yet, as you point out , he is doing all this without a Brewster/Mixu type beside him - imagine what he could score if he did have....


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:agree: We should be trying to sign a striker to compliment Cummings. Big Farid could have been the man if he wasn't so injury prone. We're 50% there in the striking department and some people seem to want to use Cummings as the reason we didn't score enough goals last season. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.

SJM
17-06-2016, 11:41 AM
No, not missing the point at all, appreciate the condescension though. Brewster was a great foil for McManus and others - but actually spent most of his second half of season out Injured. We got him fit then gave him a free - a mad decision, even at the time...that was my Brewster point...we didn't see the best of him.

You and others somehow don't seem to rate Cummings goals, yet, as you point out , he is doing all this without a Brewster/Mixu type beside him - imagine what he could score if he did have....


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Brewster was brilliant with GOC for a good few games, did he not do his shoulder in then Hibs offered him completely pap money when he wanted to stay?

Peevemor
17-06-2016, 11:47 AM
Brewster was brilliant with GOC for a good few games, did he not do his shoulder in then Hibs offered him completely pap money when he wanted to stay?

Not really. Dunfermline offered a lot more money (which events show they couldn't afford).

scoopyboy
17-06-2016, 11:53 AM
Quoting Brewster's goals suggests that you are rather missing the points being made about different types of strikers and what they bring to the team.

Say for example the team overall score 50 goals for the year and we have a striker in there who scored 25 goals.

If we could get the team scoring 75 goals but the best any striker has scored was 15 then we would take that all day long.

That's what some strikers bring - they take the ball in, they buy time to get it back to midfielders, they get it out to wingers, you get midfielders making the runs to the box more often and the team scores more goals overall.

Jason would probably play quite well with a player like that - so would Keatings. This is why you'll find that people aren't that concerned about Jason possibly going - we may not replace him with a striker who individually gets as many goals but we could get better partnerships that mean as a team we score more goals.

I agree that a striker should not me measured solely on the number of goals he scores, assists and unsettling defenders are two other attributes that should be taken into account IMO.

However my big concern is that we don't really get an awful lot of goals from our midfielders so if our top goalscorer is 15 then my hope is that we have four of them bagging that amount. I don't see our midfield changing that much however a new midfielder that could chip in with ten would be more than welcome.

MWHIBBIES
17-06-2016, 11:58 AM
I reckon a Mixu/ Brewster type with Keatings and Boyle playing every week in a front 3 would do just fine.

Boyle and Keatings on the correct sides mind - I hate this cutting in on their good foot nonsense.Any reason why you think this is nonsense? Hundreds of examples of it working all over the world.

SunshineOnLeith
17-06-2016, 11:59 AM
No i was meaning brewster for hibs. His poor goals record was my point, his impact and influence on thw team was immense.

Yes he has proved he can score against top league teams, but he hasnt proved he can be a consistent scorernin the top league.

This is my point though, you cant just say 'look at his record' becauae that reduces football to stats, and its obviously far more than that. I agree with you that cumminhs would still score in top league (althoufh not as many) but if someone is pointing only to his record, then they also have to concede that his record is entirely lower league goals.

Stats work both ways

Last season Cummings scored against SPL opposition/Rangers 9 times in 14 games, not bad 'consistency' for a 20 year old.

Andy74
17-06-2016, 12:01 PM
I agree that a striker should not me measured solely on the number of goals he scores, assists and unsettling defenders are two other attributes that should be taken into account IMO.

However my big concern is that we don't really get an awful lot of goals from our midfielders so if our top goalscorer is 15 then my hope is that we have four of them bagging that amount. I don't see our midfield changing that much however a new midfielder that could chip in with ten would be more than welcome.

Midfielders need help to get into the game in the right positions though - the answer isn't just better scoring midfielders, we need to have a striker that can hold it up and bring these players in at the right times, as well as getting it out wide and getting crosses and cut backs in that midfielders can get on to.

SunshineOnLeith
17-06-2016, 12:03 PM
Also just to reiterate i would prefer him to sign a new contract, ultimately it is cummings who WANTS to leave at the moment.

He told you that, aye?

scoopyboy
17-06-2016, 12:07 PM
Midfielders need help to get into the game in the right positions though - the answer isn't just better scoring midfielders, we need to have a striker that can hold it up and bring these players in at the right times, as well as getting it out wide and getting crosses and cut backs in that midfielders can get on to.

Again I agree with you that a striker that holds the ball up well should increase the return from midfielders, however not sure that McGeouch, Fyvie or Bartley get into goal scoring positions at all. Not even sure that any of the three even scored last season.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 12:20 PM
:agree: We should be trying to sign a striker to compliment Cummings. Big Farid could have been the man if he wasn't so injury prone. We're 50% there in the striking department and some people seem to want to use Cummings as the reason we didn't score enough goals last season. The lunatics have taken over the asylum.


But it looks like cummings wants to leave?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 12:22 PM
Last season Cummings scored against SPL opposition/Rangers 9 times in 14 games, not bad 'consistency' for a 20 year old.

Indeed.

But he still hasnt scored in a top flight game. That was my pojnt, about using naked stats

Scooter
17-06-2016, 12:23 PM
I'm pretty sure he will be away. So lets get the money and get on with it.

He's been away since maybe January so we will be better off with out and with some money

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 12:24 PM
He told you that, aye?

Of course not.

But give he has rejected a new contract its a pretty fair conclusion no?

SunshineOnLeith
17-06-2016, 12:28 PM
Of course not.

But give he has rejected a new contract its a pretty fair conclusion no?

Not seen that reported anywhere, link?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 12:31 PM
Not seen that reported anywhere, link?

I dont have a link - but there were reports some time ago that stubbs talked about the great contract on offer.

Given it hasnt been signed, i dont think im being unreasonable is saying hes knocked it back.

Maybe you are right, maybe lennon is brining the whole squad out to france individually, with their agents, to convince them all to stay.

Or maybe not.

SunshineOnLeith
17-06-2016, 12:33 PM
I dont have a link - but there were reports some time ago that stubbs talked about the great contract on offer.

Given it hasnt been signed, i dont think im being unreasonable is saying hes knocked it back.

Maybe you are right, maybe lennon is brining the whole squad out to france individually, with their agents, to convince them all to stay.

Or maybe not.

Alternatively, he's been offered a new contract and hasn't made a decision yet.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 12:35 PM
Alternatively, he's been offered a new contract and hasn't made a decision yet.

Maybe?

So even if your optimistic reading is true, its fair to say HE and he alone is putting his future up for debate, not the fans.

pacoluna
17-06-2016, 12:36 PM
I dont have a link - but there were reports some time ago that stubbs talked about the great contract on offer.

Given it hasnt been signed, i dont think im being unreasonable is saying hes knocked it back.

Maybe you are right, maybe lennon is brining the whole squad out to france individually, with their agents, to convince them all to stay.

Or maybe not.

doesn't surprise me his decision to hold of talks about possible new contract under stubbs who was ready to move at first chance..

SJM
17-06-2016, 12:41 PM
Brewster was brilliant with GOC for a good few games, did he not do his shoulder in then Hibs offered him completely pap money when he wanted to stay?

Not really. Dunfermline offered a lot more money (which events show they couldn't afford).

Brewster was asked to take a pay cut when he wanted to stay and we where cutting costs due to wreck less spending. Dunfermline offered more than what he was originally was on so he went there. Horses mouth.

SunshineOnLeith
17-06-2016, 12:54 PM
Maybe?

So even if your optimistic reading is true, its fair to say HE and he alone is putting his future up for debate, not the fans.

I don't particularly agree with your wording but that's largely semantics. Yes, uncertainty about his future is currently on him.

But much of this thread isn't a debate about whether he'll stay or go, it's people bizarrely trying to denigrate the qualities of one of the most exciting prospects in Scottish football, who we're fortunate enough to have as a Hibs player.

I've got no issues with the discussion of what a fair value would be for him, or what people think he should do etc

J-C
17-06-2016, 01:00 PM
I dont have a link - but there were reports some time ago that stubbs talked about the great contract on offer.

Given it hasnt been signed, i dont think im being unreasonable is saying hes knocked it back.

Maybe you are right, maybe lennon is brining the whole squad out to france individually, with their agents, to convince them all to stay.

Or maybe not.


I spoke to his father who is a good mate of mine and he told me Jason wanted to sign but his agent was mucking about adding buy out clauses etc, Hibs were not happy about the buy out clause and it's been stalemate since, I don't know what has maybe happened due to us not getting promoted, perhaps Jase feels he needs a new challenge and the money would be good.

Ryan69
17-06-2016, 01:01 PM
If you go off to Turkey for loadsamoney its a big mistake.
How is your Turkish?

Stay and see your contract out.You will have a winning year and be in the shop window for bigger and better things.You might even get a lucrative further deal from Hibs and a crack at the SPL title next year..

Sell him.
It's obvious he is not going to sign a new contract at ER.....and certainly don't want a precontract with Rangers or the likes in January,then being forced to accept some crappy bid as he doesn't want to play anyway.

If the bid is descent......Snap their Hand off!

J-C
17-06-2016, 01:07 PM
Again I agree with you that a striker that holds the ball up well should increase the return from midfielders, however not sure that McGeouch, Fyvie or Bartley get into goal scoring positions at all. Not even sure that any of the three even scored last season.


Fully agree, these 3 all sit too deep at times and don't support enough, Bartley is the only real DM between the 3 but Fyvie and Dylan have a tendency to drop deep and play from there, maybe injuries have played a part in the way they have played.

We need an attacking midfielder with guile and if Henderson returns he can also play there, I have a feeling Lennon may go 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 which means we have too many central midfielders, I can see one leaving to make way for an attacking one, someone like Commons.

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 01:42 PM
But it looks like cummings wants to leave?
If he wants to go then there's not a lot we can do. My point was more about the fact that people are blaming him for our lack of goals and are not bothered if he leaves. I'm hoping Lennon can persuade him to sign a new deal.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 02:01 PM
I spoke to his father who is a good mate of mine and he told me Jason wanted to sign but his agent was mucking about adding buy out clauses etc, Hibs were not happy about the buy out clause and it's been stalemate since, I don't know what has maybe happened due to us not getting promoted, perhaps Jase feels he needs a new challenge and the money would be good.

I dont buy that, im sorry. Agents work for players, if Cummings wanted to sign a new contract, he would have.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 02:05 PM
I don't particularly agree with your wording but that's largely semantics. Yes, uncertainty about his future is currently on him.

But much of this thread isn't a debate about whether he'll stay or go, it's people bizarrely trying to denigrate the qualities of one of the most exciting prospects in Scottish football, who we're fortunate enough to have as a Hibs player.

I've got no issues with the discussion of what a fair value would be for him, or what people think he should do etc


Fair enough.

Yeah i would be one of them. Its not so much i want to denigrate him as a player, i just think that if/when he leaves, he wont be as difficult to replace as people think.

As a player i don't particularly like him - like many others, i've just never really taken to him.

I will be genuinely interested to see where his career goes - if he goes on to do really well, i'll admit i'm wrong.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 02:08 PM
If he wants to go then there's not a lot we can do. My point was more about the fact that people are blaming him for our lack of goals and are not bothered if he leaves. I'm hoping Lennon can persuade him to sign a new deal.

I do think he is a big part in our lack of goals. A huge amount of our attacking moves break down with him. We are not, and never have under Stubbs, had a cohesive attacking unit, attackers who link up well, quick passing etc - Cummings isn't technically good enough to play quick, clever football. That IMO is a huge reason for our lack of potency in attacking.

I have seen much better players than Cummings leave Easter Road, and i will again in the future.

J-C
17-06-2016, 02:17 PM
I dont buy that, im sorry. Agents work for players, if Cummings wanted to sign a new contract, he would have.

Next time I speak with his dad I'll call him a liar then :confused:

Agents work for the players and themselves, plus players listen to their agents and a lot trust what their agents say, if you believe they do exactly what the player wants then you're more gullible for thinking that.

Just look back to the advise agents gave KT, Deek and more recently Scott Allan, that all worked out well for everyone at the time, BTW Jase has the same agent as Allan, enough said.

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 02:18 PM
I do think he is a big part in our lack of goals. A huge amount of our attacking moves break down with him. We are not, and never have under Stubbs, had a cohesive attacking unit, attackers who link up well, quick passing etc - Cummings isn't technically good enough to play quick, clever football. That IMO is a huge reason for our lack of potency in attacking.

I have seen much better players than Cummings leave Easter Road, and i will again in the future.
I disagree that isn't good enough to play quick attacking clever football. He had plenty assists last season and up until Stokes arrived I thought he was looking more like the finished article. His partnership with stokes didn't work as well as his partnership with either Malonga or Farid.
The boy is just starting out in the game and if he continues to improve at the rate he has done, he will go onto have a very good career. It's worth remembering that he wasn't even a professional footballer 3 years ago and he is still so young.

scoopyboy
17-06-2016, 02:22 PM
I dont buy that, im sorry. Agents work for players, if Cummings wanted to sign a new contract, he would have.

Agents work for themselves, they more use players than work for them.

bigwheel
17-06-2016, 02:31 PM
Whatever anyone thinks about JC , to suggest he is a reason for our lack of goals and potency up front has got to be the best wind up on here this summer. [emoji378][emoji378][emoji378]

Andy74
17-06-2016, 02:32 PM
Agents work for themselves, they more use players than work for them.

They might but no one forces players to use agents or use a particular agent. They appoint them, to work for them.
If they don't agree with the agent well don't appoint them in the first place or remind them who they work for.

Players can't hide behind being used by agents or being forced to do anything.

scoopyboy
17-06-2016, 02:45 PM
They might but no one forces players to use agents or use a particular agent. They appoint them, to work for them.
If they don't agree with the agent well don't appoint them in the first place or remind them who they work for.

Players can't hide behind being used by agents or being forced to do anything.

Trouble is agents sign the players on a contract and by the time they discover they aren't exactly what they thought they were getting it's too late, they are tied in for the duration.

I often wonder why more players don't just represent themselves, especially the level we are at.

But ultimately you are right, the players should tell the agent they will have the final decision and in this instance if Jason wants to sign a deal then he should be big enough to say I'm signing it.

heretoday
17-06-2016, 02:48 PM
Trouble is agents sign the players on a contract and by the time they discover they aren't exactly what they thought they were getting it's too late, they are tied in for the duration.

I often wonder why more players don't just represent themselves, especially the level we are at.

But ultimately you are right, the players should tell the agent they will have the final decision and in this instance if Jason wants to sign a deal then he should be big enough to say I'm signing it.

How can you represent yourself if your brains are in your boots?

scoopyboy
17-06-2016, 02:55 PM
How can you represent yourself if your brains are in your boots?

Nail on head mate in the case of JC, that however just makes him easy pickings for an agent.

All footballers aren't daft though and to me it's money that is just going out the game.

It's probably wrong to generalise but an agent is more interested in a transfer especially if a fee is concerned than getting a player to resign for a club. They don't really care about the player's welfare only their fee.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 03:20 PM
Next time I speak with his dad I'll call him a liar then :confused:

Agents work for the players and themselves, plus players listen to their agents and a lot trust what their agents say, if you believe they do exactly what the player wants then you're more gullible for thinking that.

Just look back to the advise agents gave KT, Deek and more recently Scott Allan, that all worked out well for everyone at the time, BTW Jase has the same agent as Allan, enough said.

Its not like his Dad might have a vested interest in painting his son in as positive a light as possible is it?

Jeezo, you make players sound like they are given agents against their will. Its a convenient excuse for players, who afterall don't ever want to blame wrong career moves on themselves.

You are obviously a lot closer than me, but the facts are as you have presented them - that Cummings side have rejected the new contract. From Hibs point of view, that means he wants to leave.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 03:22 PM
I disagree that isn't good enough to play quick attacking clever football. He had plenty assists last season and up until Stokes arrived I thought he was looking more like the finished article. His partnership with stokes didn't work as well as his partnership with either Malonga or Farid.
The boy is just starting out in the game and if he continues to improve at the rate he has done, he will go onto have a very good career. It's worth remembering that he wasn't even a professional footballer 3 years ago and he is still so young.

Fair enough, i disagree with the first bit.

Second bit, we will have to wait and see i suppose.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 03:25 PM
Whatever anyone thinks about JC , to suggest he is a reason for our lack of goals and potency up front has got to be the best wind up on here this summer. [emoji378][emoji378][emoji378]

Yeah, imagine blaming one of the only constants in our attack this season for our misfiring attack.

Next, people will be winding us up by blaming defenders for our defending. And midfielders will get the blame for both.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 03:26 PM
Nail on head mate in the case of JC, that however just makes him easy pickings for an agent.

All footballers aren't daft though and to me it's money that is just going out the game.

It's probably wrong to generalise but an agent is more interested in a transfer especially if a fee is concerned than getting a player to resign for a club. They don't really care about the player's welfare only their fee.

The old saying about fools and their money...

SJM
17-06-2016, 03:28 PM
Cummings wants to sign a new contract, his agent moving the goalposts and Jason's immediate family know of this....

Solution - get another agent. If I wanted to do something and someone I had employed was stopping that I would get them to ****.

s.a.m
17-06-2016, 03:33 PM
Cummings wants to sign a new contract, his agent moving the goalposts and Jason's immediate family know of this....

Solution - get another agent. If I wanted to do something and someone I had employed was stopping that I would get them to ****.

It may be,as Scoopyboy suggested,that he's tied into a contract.:dunno:

(I don't mean Scoopyboy suggested that Cummings specifically was tied into a contract, but that it was a possibility. If you see what I mean. Just to be clear.:greengrin)

SJM
17-06-2016, 04:15 PM
It may be,as Scoopyboy suggested,that he's tied into a contract.:dunno:

(I don't mean Scoopyboy suggested that Cummings specifically was tied into a contract, but that it was a possibility. If you see what I mean. Just to be clear.:greengrin)

If he's tied into a contract with the agent then go public that he wants to stay instead of the "I want to finish the season and see what happens in the summer" chat ala ratboy Allan. Cummings gets requested interviews from the press more than any other hibs player and he's never once stated he wants to sign a new deal, stay and play in Europe aye but a new contract, never. If he wanted to stay and his agent was stopping stuff he would at least do a Hanlon, at hampden, given **** terms that his agent rightfully said no thanks to and say "I want to stay at hibs, sign a new deal" etc. from Jason there's been nothing of the sort. I would be amazed if he stays.

J-C
17-06-2016, 04:17 PM
Its not like his Dad might have a vested interest in painting his son in as positive a light as possible is it?

Jeezo, you make players sound like they are given agents against their will. Its a convenient excuse for players, who afterall don't ever want to blame wrong career moves on themselves.

You are obviously a lot closer than me, but the facts are as you have presented them - that Cummings side have rejected the new contract. From Hibs point of view, that means he wants to leave.


They have not rejected Hibs offer, they want certain stipulations and clauses added which Hibs don't, they're at a stalemate, I also take it you chose to ignore Scoopboy's posts re agents, exactly the same as I'm saying, out for themselves most of the time, players use them to get the best deals.

SJM
17-06-2016, 04:20 PM
They have not rejected Hibs offer, they want certain stipulations and clauses added which Hibs don't, they're at a stalemate, I also take it you chose to ignore Scoopboy's posts re agents, exactly the same as I'm saying, out for themselves most of the time, players use them to get the best deals.

And Jason and his family didn't realise after the Scott Allan situation that his agent would be like that? Or did they see them getting ultimately the best deal for the player regardless of his preference?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 06:35 PM
They have not rejected Hibs offer, they want certain stipulations and clauses added which Hibs don't, they're at a stalemate, I also take it you chose to ignore Scoopboy's posts re agents, exactly the same as I'm saying, out for themselves most of the time, players use them to get the best deals.

Ok fair enough, they havent been able to agree a contract.

So are you saying that this is happening against the wishes of JC, who has agreed the deal with hibs otherwise?

J-C
17-06-2016, 07:03 PM
Ok fair enough, they havent been able to agree a contract.

So are you saying that this is happening against the wishes of JC, who has agreed the deal with hibs otherwise?

I, Scoops and SJM are saying he's being badly advised by an agent who's thinking more about himself than the actual player. The same agent who wonderfully advised Allan last season, that worked out well for Allan eh?

Finn2015
17-06-2016, 07:41 PM
I, Scoops and SJM are saying he's being badly advised by an agent who's thinking more about himself than the actual player. The same agent who wonderfully advised Allan last season, that worked out well for Allan eh?

Hopefully Cummings bears that in mind

J-C
17-06-2016, 07:52 PM
Hopefully Cummings bears that in mind

Hopefully the meeting with Lennon proves fruitful.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=J-C;4734704]I, Scoops and SJM are saying he's being badly advised by an agent who's thinking more about himself than the actual player. The same agent who wonderfully advised Allan last season, that worked out well for


Ok we are going around in circles. You can dress it up anyway you like, but cummings and his team are not signing a new contract. That tells hibs he wants to leave.

Whether or not its a good move for him or not onlt time will tell. Allan hasnt done anything first season but might this seaaon and it will have been a great move.

I dont really care what happens to cummings when he leaves - although im curious to watch - but you have confirmed that him and his team are agitating for a move, which was the point of this whole discussion

snedzuk
17-06-2016, 08:29 PM
Hopefully the meeting with Lennon proves fruitful.

This from todays Scotsman sport!!

Celtic manager Neil Lennon will hold talks with Jason Cummings in Paris today over his future at Hibs.

West lower
17-06-2016, 08:31 PM
Cummings to Paris ? I can just imagine Ned Turnbull. I reckon it would go along the lines of a telephone call :

Ned " Right Jason , you signing for us again " ?
Jas " My agent says that .....(click ) hello ? Hello ? "

And rightly so .

Mr White
17-06-2016, 08:38 PM
Cummings to Paris ? I can just imagine Ned Turnbull. I reckon it would go along the lines of a telephone call :

Ned " Right Jason , you signing for us again " ?
Jas " My agent says that .....(click ) hello ? Hello ? "

And rightly so .

Well if JC does leave let's hope Lennon is better at replacing 20 goal a season strikers than Turnbull was :greengrin

Fritz
17-06-2016, 08:44 PM
Yeah, imagine blaming one of the only constants in our attack this season for our misfiring attack.

Next, people will be winding us up by blaming defenders for our defending. And midfielders will get the blame for both.

Eh?!?! Yeah, imagine blaming the guy who scored 25 goals for our "misfiring attack"... What a load of Tom kite!

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 08:49 PM
Eh?!?! Yeah, imagine blaming the guy who scored 25 goals for our "misfiring attack"... What a load of Tom kite!
It's like saying its Harry Kane's fault Spurs didn't win the league :crazy::crazy::crazy:

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 08:52 PM
Eh?!?! Yeah, imagine blaming the guy who scored 25 goals for our "misfiring attack"... What a load of Tom kite!

I'm ever incredulous that some of our fans are quite happy (it seems) to 'cash in' on one of our best strikers in years.

Take a look at his goals, how they vary in style and technique, how he's never let his head drop despite social media 'scandal' , 'muffingate', Raith miss, semi final penalty.......the lad is young and has character and **** the size of melons !!

One thing folk are missing here - the lad can ONLY improve from now on. As I said I'm astonished folk seem both resigned and accepting he's away.

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 08:58 PM
I'm ever incredulous that some of our fans are quite happy (it seems) to 'cash in' on one of our best strikers in years.

Take a look at his goals, how they vary in style and technique, how he's never let his head drop despite social media 'scandal' , 'muffingate', Raith miss, semi final penalty.......the lad is young and has character and **** the size of melons !!

One thing folk are missing here - the lad can ONLY improve from now on. As I said I'm astonished folk seem both resigned and accepting he's away.
:top marks

Malthibby
17-06-2016, 08:59 PM
Getting a bit unpleasant, this thread.
don't understand why agents get the players they do unless it's just the money
but Hanlon has proved it's not always just that, I hope that Lennon is getting JC over to
Paris to show him the pretty lights can be watched from ER for a wee bit longer.
Good management skills methinks.
If he still won't sign then it's ta ta and thanks for all the goals, with apologies to Douglas Adams.
Think he would be making a mistake but it needs sorted Asap.
GG

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:01 PM
It's like saying its Harry Kane's fault Spurs didn't win the league :crazy::crazy::crazy:

No its not.

This is back to the whole argument, whether you judge a player by his record or what you see.

Cummings is a good goal scorer in this league. Personally i think we looked a more threatening team when we played stokes and keatings. I think this is because Cummings link up play is poor. So yes he brings goals, but he also costs us attacking cohesion, etc

The question therefore becomes do his goals outweigh his bad points? Is his personal contribution greater than what he costa the team with his bad points?

I personally dont necessarily think so.

Off the too of my head, i think our two biggest wins of the season didnt Cummings. Quite unusual i would say.

Also, he takes penaltiea, so theres between five and ten of hia goals that you will replace almoat automatically.

So youre actually talking about replacing fifteenish goals a season.

And people are only talking about cashing in because he is ahowing signs of agitating for a move so its forcing hibs hand. Id rather he stayed, but i think he will be very replaceable by strengthening the team.

Falkirk didnt have him and it didnt seem to hinder them

Marco G
17-06-2016, 09:06 PM
No its not.

This is back to the whole argument, whether you judge a player by his record or what you see.

Cummings is a good goal scorer in this league. Personally i think we looked a more threatening team when we played stokes and keatings. I think this is because Cummings link up play is poor. So yes he brings goals, but he also costs us attacking cohesion, etc

The question therefore becomes do his goals outweigh his bad points? Is his personal contribution greater than what he costa the team with his bad points?

I personally dont think so.

Off the too of my head, i think our two biggest wins of the season didnt include Cummings. Quite unusual i would say.

Also, he takes penaltiea, so theres between five and ten of hia goals that you will replace almoat automatically.

So youre actually talking about replacing fifteenish goals a season.Neil Lennon realises that Jason is an asset that is worth more keeping for a season than selling for not a lot. That is why they are having a chat. No more to be said imo.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:10 PM
Neil Lennon realises that Jason is an asset that is worth more keeping for a season than selling for not a lot. That is why they are having a chat. No more to be said imo.

Not necessarily. Hes maybe trying to convince him to sign a new contract.

If he doesnt, he will probably be out the door

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 09:10 PM
No its not.

This is back to the whole argument, whether you judge a player by his record or what you see.

Cummings is a good goal scorer in this league. Personally i think we looked a more threatening team when we played stokes and keatings. I think this is because Cummings link up play is poor. So yes he brings goals, but he also costs us attacking cohesion, etc

The question therefore becomes do his goals outweigh his bad points? Is his personal contribution greater than what he costa the team with his bad points?

I personally dont think so.

Off the too of my head, i think our two biggest wins of the season didnt include Cummings. Quite unusual i would say.

Also, he takes penaltiea, so theres between five and ten of hia goals that you will replace almoat automatically.

So youre actually talking about replacing fifteenish goals a season.

Jason was landscape gardening 3 years ago - he's now played in three national cup semi finals, scored in two (winning penalty after a horrendous miss), played in 2 national cup finals, played in and is now a Scottish Cup winner, lethal strike record v rivals Hearts already, scored v The Rangers often, top scorer last 2 years, capped at U21 level - and you are criticising him for his 'link up play' !!!

Crazy talk mate, crazy talk - sorry !

staunchhibby
17-06-2016, 09:11 PM
Speaks for itself .Same agent was involved with Scott Allan and we seen the problems he caused.

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 09:12 PM
No its not.

This is back to the whole argument, whether you judge a player by his record or what you see.

Cummings is a good goal scorer in this league. Personally i think we looked a more threatening team when we played stokes and keatings. I think this is because Cummings link up play is poor. So yes he brings goals, but he also costs us attacking cohesion, etc

The question therefore becomes do his goals outweigh his bad points? Is his personal contribution greater than what he costa the team with his bad points?

I personally dont think so.

Off the too of my head, i think our two biggest wins of the season didnt include Cummings. Quite unusual i would say.

Also, he takes penaltiea, so theres between five and ten of hia goals that you will replace almoat automatically.

So youre actually talking about replacing fifteenish goals a season.
I don't know where to start with that. Our 2 biggest wins last season were the final and the (2) hearts games, both of which Cummings played a pivotal role in. If keatings was a better partner for Stokes why didn't Stubbs go with that?
I realise these things are all about opinions and I respect that you don't rate jc, but I really can't see where your coming from with this. Most guys who get 20-30 goals a season are also taking the penalties. For me it's about finding someone who can play up front with Jason and chip in with 15 goals.
peace.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:18 PM
Jason was landscape gardening 3 years ago - he's now played in three national cup semi finals, scored in two (winning penalty after a horrendous miss), played in 2 national cup finals, played in and is now a Scottish Cup winner, lethal strike record v rivals Hearts already, scored v The Rangers often, top scorer last 2 years, capped at U21 level - and you are criticising him for his 'link up play' !!!

Crazy talk mate, crazy talk - sorry !

We can agree to disagree. I dont think hes a team player.

And since when hes scoring in penalty shoot out counted as scoring? Especially when he missed the chance to avoid et and pens in the first place. So he scored in one semi final. In fact his record in semis is no goals from open play in three, and only a 50% success ratio in penalties. And no goals in finals. Stats eh.

Im signing out of this, i do want him to stay, just dont rate him as highly as some obviously. But if he chooses to leave, he can be replaced.

Have to say his record against hearts is what i would miss most. That header in the cup game was a magnificent header.

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
17-06-2016, 09:22 PM
I don't know where to start with that. Our 2 biggest wins last season were the final and the (2) hearts games, both of which Cummings played a pivotal role in. If keatings was a better partner for Stokes why didn't Stubbs go with that?
I realise these things are all about opinions and I respect that you don't rate jc, but I really can't see where your coming from with this. Most guys who get 20-30 goals a season are also taking the penalties. For me it's about finding someone who can play up front with Jason and chip in with 15 goals.
peace.

I meant biggest wins in terms of score. Amd towards the end of the season cummings did start getting dropped.

Fair enough. I think the decision will be taken out of hibs hands anyway

lord bunberry
17-06-2016, 09:24 PM
I meant biggest wins in terms of score. Amd towards the end of the season cummings did start getting dropped.

Fair enough. I think the decision will be taken out of hibs hands anyway
I suspect you may be right on your last point, hopefully not though.

Marco G
17-06-2016, 09:27 PM
Not necessarily. Hes maybe trying to convince him to sign a new contract.

If he doesnt, he will probably be out the doorDon't know what Neil Lennon is thinking, but he is quoted as saying he wants Cummings to stay, for at least a season, preferably longer. That seems clear to me (if he said it!)

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 09:31 PM
We can agree to disagree. I dont think hes a team player.

And since when hes scoring in penalty shoot out counted as scoring? Especially when he missed the chance to avoid et and pens in the first place. So he scored in one semi final. In fact his record in semis is no goals from open play in three, and only a 50% success ratio in penalties. And no goals in finals. Stats eh.

Im signing out of this, i do want him to stay, just dont rate him as highly as some obviously. But if he chooses to leave, he can be replaced.

Have to say his record against hearts is what i would miss most. That header in the cup game was a magnificent header.

If they exist, watch old clips of Mo Johnston with Partick - then Celtic. Jason reminds me very much of him. No fear, head never dropped, total confidence.

Mo went to Nantes and his game completely changed, for the better - and France made him a 'link up' striker - but by then he'd had a career of scoring goals.

Jason needs another full season of scoring goals behind him before taking that next jump forward. His overall game will improve over time - but it's a smooth trajectory and he needs another season of 30+ games - he won't get that if he moves to England, I'll guarantee it.

Marco G
17-06-2016, 09:38 PM
If they exist, watch old clips of Mo Johnston with Partick - then Celtic. Jason reminds me very much of him. No fear, head never dropped, total confidence.

Mo went to Nantes and his game completely changed, for the better - and France made him a 'link up' striker - but by then he'd had a career of scoring goals.

Jason needs another full season of scoring goals behind him before taking that next jump forward. His overall game will improve over time - but it's a smooth trajectory and he needs another season of 30+ games - he won't get that if he moves to England, I'll guarantee it.I think Neil Lennon will improve him further and he will score a lot next season, so think your comparison is spot on!

sleeping giant
17-06-2016, 09:42 PM
If they exist, watch old clips of Mo Johnston with Partick - then Celtic. Jason reminds me very much of him. No fear, head never dropped, total confidence.

Mo went to Nantes and his game completely changed, for the better - and France made him a 'link up' striker - but by then he'd had a career of scoring goals.

Jason needs another full season of scoring goals behind him before taking that next jump forward. His overall game will improve over time - but it's a smooth trajectory and he needs another season of 30+ games - he won't get that if he moves to England, I'll guarantee it.


Great post again sir .
Always a well balanced view.

Do you mind if I ask if you are an ex player ?

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 09:57 PM
Great post again sir .
Always a well balanced view.

Do you mind if I ask if you are an ex player ?

In true Marlon Brando style 'I could have been a contender' SG 😀
Never graced the professional stage but trained with Hearts as a youngster - mind I have scored two penalties at Easter Road in front of the Dunbar end during half time during a Hibs Celtic game - in 1983 if I recall. Then gave the 'tic fans the vickies ! 😀

monktonharp
17-06-2016, 10:11 PM
I dont buy that, im sorry. Agents work for players, if Cummings wanted to sign a new contract, he would have.without reading all of the posts, I must interject! Agents work for their client? do they? they work for their 10% in my opinion.

monktonharp
17-06-2016, 10:14 PM
Next time I speak with his dad I'll call him a liar then :confused:

Agents work for the players and themselves, plus players listen to their agents and a lot trust what their agents say, if you believe they do exactly what the player wants then you're more gullible for thinking that.

Just look back to the advise agents gave KT, Deek and more recently Scott Allan, that all worked out well for everyone at the time, BTW Jase has the same agent as Allan, enough said.:agree: well said J-C

sleeping giant
17-06-2016, 10:50 PM
In true Marlon Brando style 'I could have been a contender' SG 😀
Never graced the professional stage but trained with Hearts as a youngster - mind I have scored two penalties at Easter Road in front of the Dunbar end during half time during a Hibs Celtic game - in 1983 if I recall. Then gave the 'tic fans the vickies ! 😀

:faf:

I thought you were someone else.

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 10:55 PM
:faf:

I thought you were someone else.

Sorry to disappoint SG 😀 anyway, I hope Jason stays and progresses - he's got a good 15 years footballing ahead and I'm sure there'll be good good contracts within that period - but he needs another season of goals under his belt.

truehibernian
17-06-2016, 10:56 PM
:faf:

I thought you were someone else.

Mind I know a few players so can easy get a beer mat signed for ya 😀

bigwheel
17-06-2016, 10:58 PM
If they exist, watch old clips of Mo Johnston with Partick - then Celtic. Jason reminds me very much of him. No fear, head never dropped, total confidence.

Mo went to Nantes and his game completely changed, for the better - and France made him a 'link up' striker - but by then he'd had a career of scoring goals.

Jason needs another full season of scoring goals behind him before taking that next jump forward. His overall game will improve over time - but it's a smooth trajectory and he needs another season of 30+ games - he won't get that if he moves to England, I'll guarantee it.

Great set of points.....


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sleeping giant
17-06-2016, 10:59 PM
Sorry to disappoint SG 😀 anyway, I hope Jason stays and progresses - he's got a good 15 years footballing ahead and I'm sure there'll be good good contracts within that period - but he needs another season of goals under his belt.

I am a big fan of his mate .
He scores goals . We have been crying out for a cheeky poacher like him for years.
I am surprised that some would be happy to see him go.

Delboy4
17-06-2016, 11:40 PM
without reading all of the posts, I must interject! Agents work for their client? do they? they work for their 10% in my opinion.

Try 5%

bingo70
18-06-2016, 05:29 AM
We can agree to disagree. I dont think hes a team player.

And since when hes scoring in penalty shoot out counted as scoring? Especially when he missed the chance to avoid et and pens in the first place. So he scored in one semi final. In fact his record in semis is no goals from open play in three, and only a 50% success ratio in penalties. And no goals in finals. Stats eh.

Im signing out of this, i do want him to stay, just dont rate him as highly as some obviously. But if he chooses to leave, he can be replaced.

Have to say his record against hearts is what i would miss most. That header in the cup game was a magnificent header.

Realise you've since dropped out this thread but I've agreed with everything you've said on this thread. You've taken a but stick so thought that was worth pointing out.

If he stays great, but if he goes I think he can be replaced, especially if we play with a different style that includes wingers.

For those that rate him higher than I do, I'm curious as to why you think he rarely scored more than one goal a game? He's clearly got the ability to put the ball in the net so the only conclusion I keep coming back to is that once he gets his goal he can be guilty of switching off. Players with his scoring record would normally be picking up the odd game with 2 or 3. Genuine interested in people's thoughts on this, not an attempt to score points or to win an argument.

Also think it's a good point about the penalties scored, anyone know how many he scored? Edit:- found answer to this myself, not including penalty shoot out it was 6. You could probably add one to that as well though as he missed one in a game and scored the rebound I think

bigwheel
18-06-2016, 06:03 AM
Realise you've since dropped out this thread but I've agreed with everything you've said on this thread. You've taken a but stick so thought that was worth pointing out.

If he stays great, but if he goes I think he can be replaced, especially if we play with a different style that includes wingers.

For those that rate him higher than I do, I'm curious as to why you think he rarely scored more than one goal a game? He's clearly got the ability to put the ball in the net so the only conclusion I keep coming back to is that once he gets his goal he can be guilty of switching off. Players with his scoring record would normally be picking up the odd game with 2 or 3. Genuine interested in people's thoughts on this, not an attempt to score points or to win an argument.

Also think it's a good point about the penalties scored, anyone know how many he scored?

Seriously? You agree with everything that was said - including the view that Jason Cummings was the reason we didn't score enough goals last year? That is one of the most genuinely bonkers points I've ever read on this board...

I can understand that people might not warm to him, and he is far from the finished article but JC scored 25 of our 59 goals...The nearest I think was Keatings with 11....the midfield barely scored double figures between them....do you not think it's the lack of goals from other parts of the team that are perhaps to blame? Or are you saying that JC is also the main reason other players have not been scoring enough too?

And as for him switching off after he has scored a goal...really? That's your point? I don't know about you, but for me, whenever Cummings is on the pitch, he is all about scoring goals...whether he has scored or not

I'm not a professional football man, but I can bet as Lennon analyses the improvements for next season, it will be more goals from different parts of the team he seeks to create as a priority, not more goals for Cummings. Another 25 please will be his request...

In a season of not scoring enough goals, for the only player who did so to be targeted as the weakness in our goals scoring record is genuinely up there with the nuttiest point I think I have ever read on these boards..




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bingo70
18-06-2016, 06:13 AM
Seriously? You agree with everything that was said - including the view that Jason Cummings was the reason we didn't score enough goals last year? That is one of the most genuinely bonkers points I've ever read on this board...

I can understand that people might not warm to him, and he is far from the finished article but JC scored 25 of our 59 goals...The nearest I think was Keatings with 11....the midfield barely scored double figures between them....do you not think it's the lack of goals from other parts of the team that are perhaps to blame? Or are you saying that JC is also the main reason other players have not been scoring enough too?

And as for him switching off after he has scored a goal...really? That's your point? I don't know about you, but for me, whenever Cummings is on the pitch, he is all about scoring goals...whether he has scored or not

I'm not a professional football man, but I can bet as Lennon analyses the improvements for next season, it will be more goals from different parts of the team he seeks to create as a priority, not more goals for Cummings. Another 25 please will be his request...

In a season of not scoring enough goals, for the only player who did so to be targeted as the weakness in our goals scoring record is genuinely up there with the nuttiest point I think I have ever read on these boards..




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I get that you disagree about Cummings but it's a bit frustrating you're just ignoring all the points that other people are making and repeating how many goals he scored.

I think one of the reasons our midfielders never scored so many was to do with the type of forwards we played with. If Cummings leaves and is replaced with someone who scores less goals but helps other players, including midfielders, score more then we'd be a better team for it, even if we didn't have one striker scoring 20-25 goals. To my mind, that's all that people are saying about Cummings, there's not a witch hunt against him.

How many goals did Falkirks top scorer have last season? I don't know but I'm pretty sure it was a lot less than Cummings. Same applies to Hearts when they romped this league.

Like I said in my post, my point about Cummings only scoring one goal in a game was just a genuine question as I'm interested in people's thoughts, it wasn't a loaded question. I think he only scored 2 goals in a game once last season and one of those was a penalty, I personally find that a bit strange for someone with his goal scoring stats.

bigwheel
18-06-2016, 06:29 AM
I get that you disagree about Cummings but it's a bit frustrating you're just ignoring all the points that other people are making and repeating how many goals he scored.

I think one of the reasons our midfielders never scored so many was to do with the type of forwards we played with. If Cummings leaves and is replaced with someone who scores less goals but helps other players, including midfielders, score more then we'd be a better team for it, even if we didn't have one striker scoring 20-25 goals. To my mind, that's all that people are saying about Cummings, there's not a witch hunt against him.

How many goals did Falkirks top scorer have last season? I don't know but I'm pretty sure it was a lot less than Cummings. Same applies to Hearts when they romped this league.

Like I said in my post, my point about Cummings only scoring one goal in a game was just a genuine question as I'm interested in people's thoughts, it wasn't a loaded question. I think he only scored 2 goals in a game once last season and one of those was a penalty, I personally find that a bit strange for someone with his goal scoring stats.

I'm not ignoring other points - but the other points are primarily about us scoring more goals. And I'm stunned, that in a squad game, people are actually suggesting that Cummings is one of the reasons we are not as a team scoring enough goals. One poster actually says on this thread, that we can replace Cummings goals - well perhaps not all of them but most of them....well great, but what's the point of that?

The reason Falkirk didn't have a 25 goals striker, is not a sense of joy for them...they will be seeking every year to get one. So yes, they were successful despite that, not because of it...we have one, so my point is let's build on that. Not start again...

why isn't the main focus on how we can supplement JC's goals from other parts of the pitch? Surely, that's a much more important point for Hibs to crack..

In the scheme of things, the fact that Cummings didn't regularly score more than one a game, when most barely scored at all, is far from our biggest problem. You suggest, I think, that it's because he stopped trying after he had scored. Well that's not why I witnessed. Cummings tries to score goals, that is what he does...whether he has scored already or not.


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Andy74
18-06-2016, 06:51 AM
I'm not ignoring other points - but the other points are primarily about us scoring more goals. And I'm stunned, that in a squad game, people are actually suggesting that Cummings is one of the reasons we are not as a team scoring enough goals. One poster actually says on this thread, that we can replace Cummings goals - well perhaps not all of them but most of them....well great, but what's the point of that?

The reason Falkirk didn't have a 25 goals striker, is not a sense of joy for them...they will be seeking every year to get one. So yes, they were successful despite that, not because of it...we have one, so my point is let's build on that. Not start again...

why isn't the main focus on how we can supplement JC's goals from other parts of the pitch? Surely, that's a much more important point for Hibs to crack..

In the scheme of things, the fact that Cummings didn't regularly score more than one a game, when most barely scored at all, is far from our biggest problem. You suggest, I think, that it's because he stopped trying after he had scored. Well that's not why I witnessed. Cummings tries to score goals, that is what he does...whether he has scored already or not.


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You're just not getting the points made at all.

Waxy
18-06-2016, 06:52 AM
20 goals a season striker, scores in the big games, loves scoring against the jambos, we wouldnt have won the Scottish cup without him, entertaining attitude......Got to love Jason.Really hope we can keep him.We could do with him this season.

Keith_M
18-06-2016, 07:04 AM
Steven Fletcher is rubbish because he can't score with his right foot. When he leaves Hibs, I can't see him ever achieving much.

Whittaker is garbage and can't defend, he'll never amount to anything.

Derek Riordan is the most naturally talented player seen at ER in decades and is destined for greatness.

B.H.F.C
18-06-2016, 07:18 AM
20 goals a season striker, scores in the big games, loves scoring against the jambos, we wouldnt have won the Scottish cup without him, entertaining attitude......Got to love Jason.Really hope we can keep him.We could do with him this season.

That's my view too. Hopefully we bring in someone to play alongside him that does the other aspects of the game. I don't get his whole view that it needs to be one of the other.

Bringing someone in that holds the ball up etc doesn't suddenly mean we are going to start scoring loads of goals from midfield either. McGinn has the potential to hit double figures but are the likes of McGeough, Bartley and Fyvie going to start scoring on a regular basis? Not in my opinion.

bigwheel
18-06-2016, 07:22 AM
You're just not getting the points made at all.

you don't seem to add to the debate ..


Here are the points I've been making/defending on this entire thread - in summary:

1. I find it a little bit strange people, including you, are non-plussed about the likelihood of Cummings going - for me, it will be a big gap to fill.
2. The suggestion by some that Cummings is one of the reasons we did not score enough goals last season is frankly bonkers.
3. I think we should focus on supplementing his goals, rather than doing away with them..



Feel free to fire away against them, rather than make unhelpful comments...

bingo70
18-06-2016, 07:54 AM
you don't seem to add to the debate ..


Here are the points I've been making/defending on this entire thread - in summary:

1. I find it a little bit strange people, including you, are non-plussed about the likelihood of Cummings going - for me, it will be a big gap to fill.
2. The suggestion by some that Cummings is one of the reasons we did not score enough goals last season is frankly bonkers.
3. I think we should focus on supplementing his goals, rather than doing away with them..



Feel free to fire away against them, rather than make unhelpful comments...

1. It'd be a big gap to fill but not an impossible one, we'd be a better team if we can spread the goals throughout the team.

2. Although I wouldn't hold him directly responsible for that, there is an argument that having one striker scoring 25 goals in a season doesn'tmake you a good attacking team. It's perfectly feasable to have a team scoring more goals without a striker scoring so many goals.

3. If we can do that then great but the debate to my mind is about what happens if Cummings leaves. If he wants to stay I hope we bring in a good number 10 and proper wingers to supply him. I personally think it sounds like he wants a move and if so I'd rather we cash in on him than let him wind his contract down.

lord bunberry
18-06-2016, 08:11 AM
1. It'd be a big gap to fill but not an impossible one, we'd be a better team if we can spread the goals throughout the team.

2. Although I wouldn't hold him directly responsible for that, there is an argument that having one striker scoring 25 goals in a season doesn'tmake you a good attacking team. It's perfectly feasable to have a team scoring more goals without a striker scoring so many goals.

3. If we can do that then great but the debate to my mind is about what happens if Cummings leaves. If he wants to stay I hope we bring in a good number 10 and proper wingers to supply him. I personally think it sounds like he wants a move and if so I'd rather we cash in on him than let him wind his contract down.
We'd be a better team if we had Cummings scoring 25 goals as well as the rest of the team scoring more goals.
I just can't see the point people are making that it's somehow Cummings fault the rest of the team don't score enough.

bigwheel
18-06-2016, 08:13 AM
1. It'd be a big gap to fill but not an impossible one, we'd be a better team if we can spread the goals throughout the team.

2. Although I wouldn't hold him directly responsible for that, there is an argument that having one striker scoring 25 goals in a season doesn'tmake you a good attacking team. It's perfectly feasable to have a team scoring more goals without a striker scoring so many goals.

3. If we can do that then great but the debate to my mind is about what happens if Cummings leaves. If he wants to stay I hope we bring in a good number 10 and proper wingers to supply him. I personally think it sounds like he wants a move and if so I'd rather we cash in on him than let him wind his contract down.


Thanks for that Bingo - interesting points...

Agree completely - Getting more goals throughout the rest of the team has to be a major area for focus - if we crack that I think we will run away with this league...

My (over) reaction on this thread was because of my original point 2....indeed,look to get better balance by getting from others, but let's not stifle Cummings..

Your point 3 is perhaps the crux - it seemed certain he was off while Stubbs was here. It was pretty clear that Hibs were going to use his funds to help a rebuild. We may still do. Although the soundings so far, are that Lennon fancies him to stay. So perhaps it is less clear than it was..if he wants to move then sure, let's ship him out - but if he is happy to stay, score 20+ goals and help get us promoted - then I'm all for him staying - even if he moves for nothing at the end of the season...

northstandhibby
18-06-2016, 08:23 AM
20 goals a season striker, scores in the big games, loves scoring against the jambos, we wouldnt have won the Scottish cup without him, entertaining attitude......Got to love Jason.Really hope we can keep him.We could do with him this season.

Agree with this. I really hope this young very talented scoring machine signs on again for another year or two.








Glory Glory

B.H.F.C
18-06-2016, 08:32 AM
We'd be a better team if we had Cummings scoring 25 goals as well as the rest of the team scoring more goals.
I just can't see the point people are making that it's somehow Cummings fault the rest of the team don't score enough.

I agree. We need to compliment his goals and attributes, not replace them IMO.

We didn't score enough with him in the team. For me, it's easier to add to his goals, than replace them and add to them.

J-C
18-06-2016, 08:53 AM
Bingo70, Bigwheel...

I think we are all getting a bit ahead of ourselves here.

All people are doing is speculating on the assumption that Cummings hasn't signed his contract offer from Hibs and there are rumours he may be wanting away, this will always cause speculation amongst the support.

Cummings does score goals but in his play he can be very selfish and doesn't always bring others into play, he needs to lift his head more often. Yes he still has a lot to learn and another year with us would make perfect sense but he's in his last year and if he doesn't want to be here we need to get the money for him and reinvest in another striker, that is the reality of the situation.

I don't think anyone is really saying get rid because he's crap etc, it's just a case of if he wants away let him go and get someone else in, it's football and players come and go all the time, look at Malonga I think he was a better partner for Jason but he wouldn't have won us the cup in the same way as Stokes did.

wookie70
18-06-2016, 09:05 AM
Everyone is in agreement that the midfield need to score more goals. I can see the point being made that our style of play and the way Jason plays may not lead to the goals being spread. I don't agree with it though. Let's look at how the midfielders have done with other teams. John McGinn scored 4 times in 87 appearances with St Mirren with quite a few of those games featuring a decent hold up centre forward Steven Thompson. Fraser Fyvie scored 2 in 58 appearances with Aberdeen, Scott Vernon(6ft 1") was their main striker at the time, Marv has scored 11 goals in over 300 appearances. Dylan hasn't played enough games to really judge( 2 in 28 before Hibs) but he certainly doesn't look like a goalscoring midfielder to me. Henderson could be a goal scoring midfielder so he should be a top target for us. A goal every 5 games or so before Hibs but not so good since he got here, not sure if that is anything to do with Jason or our style of play.

From my point of view we have a team full of central midfielder that are not goalscorers. I would cite that for the reason our goalscorers don't score enough goals more than Jason. I have some sympathy with the argument about style of play but again I think a second striker like Brewster or Mixu would add goals from midfield by holding the ball up and allowing the midfield to get forward. I also think that type of player would mean Jason would score more. Signing one or two midfielders that score more often would also help as may playing with more width.

I see Jason as very much part of the solution not the problem.

Dom'sFirstTouch
18-06-2016, 09:27 AM
I find the Cummings debate fascinating. It's one I've been having with my mates a lot recently, and I've found I seem to be the only one who thinks he'd be a big loss. Obviously if he wants to leave the whole thing is academic but let's assume there's the possibility of him staying.

It seems that despite scoring almost 50 goals by age 20 (despite a brutal start under Butcher) Jason isn't particularly popular among Hibs fans, certainly compared to Riordan, O'Connor or even Malonga. Is it his over-the-top cockiness? His perceived lack of his team play? His awful haircut?

I see a lot are that he'd be easily replaced, something like 'any decent striker should score 25 goals for Hibs in this league'. Except they didn't, and Jason did, despite never really clicking with Stokes and suffering a downturn in form/comfidence for much of the 2nd half of the season. If it was that easy all our strikers would have done it.

The more interesting point is that we'd be better sharing goals around. Obviously this is true, but the inference seems to be that if we sell Jason, and replace him with some sort of mythical link man striker suddenly our whole midfield would start banging them in? (Fyvie? Mcgeoch? Bartley?) If he was gone we'd suddenly automatically have wingers firing great crosses in and all our strikers would suddenly be goal machines? Was Jason somehow stealing all the chances away from everyone else? Preventing our midfielders actually running into the box and shooting? Maybe even on target now and then?

I think it's a bit unfair to lay the blame for our lack of midfield goals on Cummings. I don't recall our midfield looking radically more threatening in games where Jason didn't play (I'd be very interested if someone had stats to the contrary though). I'd say it's considerably more down to tactics and our midfielders' lack of shooting ability.

If we sell him, bring him 3 or 4 quality attacking players, change the way we play tactically to be far more direct and aggressive and score a bunch of goals then great, but there's a lot of ifs and buts in there. Would we not be better keeping Jason's goals and trying to build from there? Do folks really see Jason as that much of an impediment to us scoring/sharing goals around our team?

I hope signs a new contract. I think if there was another team with a 20 year old striker with Jason's record we'd be surprised if their fans were as happy with the possibility of selling him as plenty of Hibs fans seem to be.

J-C
18-06-2016, 09:47 AM
We need another striker who can play alongside Jason and not like Stokes who dropped so deep they were sometimes 20-30 yards apart, Malonga seemed the perfect foil for Jason, he slotted into the hole between midfield and Jason, this is where a player like Commons (been mentioned) or similar can be the difference in us scoring more as a team.

NORTHERNHIBBY
18-06-2016, 10:03 AM
I think that the last time we had a similar discussion was regards to if and when we would fall apart when Scott Allan was sold. IIRC we banked what was essentially free money as we didn't pay for him to start with and got a better player in McGinn for a wee bit of that back and the sweetener of Henderson on loan. That didn't work out to badly?

lord bunberry
18-06-2016, 10:25 AM
I think that the last time we had a similar discussion was regards to if and when we would fall apart when Scott Allan was sold. IIRC we banked what was essentially free money as we didn't pay for him to start with and got a better player in McGinn for a wee bit of that back and the sweetener of Henderson on loan. That didn't work out to badly?
I remember when we sold Stokes and brought in Trakyis. I also remember selling countless good players and replacing them with dross. It worked out well for us with Scott Allan, but it doesn't always work that way. We can't afford to gamble this season.

SJM
18-06-2016, 10:31 AM
I remember when we sold Stokes and brought in Trakyis. I also remember selling countless good players and replacing them with dross. It worked out well for us with Scott Allan, but it doesn't always work that way. We can't afford to gamble this season.

Daryl Duffy but fair point. Zemmama with Alan Gow tae :(

wookie70
18-06-2016, 10:35 AM
I think that the last time we had a similar discussion was regards to if and when we would fall apart when Scott Allan was sold. IIRC we banked what was essentially free money as we didn't pay for him to start with and got a better player in McGinn for a wee bit of that back and the sweetener of Henderson on loan. That didn't work out to badly?

That was a relatively unusual situation as we got players back from the club we were selling to so there was a bigger spread to bargain with. It worked out pretty well but Henderson is now away and McGeogh only managed half a season. Who knows if SA had stayed we may have got promoted, doubt it but who knows.

SJM
18-06-2016, 10:38 AM
Scott Allan is a better player than John McGinn. He offered much more to us than McGinn. He's still a welt though. I hope him and his wee pal Halliday sat greetin' the night of the final as we had one massive party.

500miles
18-06-2016, 10:43 AM
Scott Allan is a better player than John McGinn. He offered much more to us than McGinn. He's still a welt though. I hope him and his wee pal Halliday sat greetin' the night of the final as we had one massive party.

How many caps has Scott Allan got?

Going forward, Allan may be more creative, but he doesn't defend, can't beat a man for pace, didn't score as many goals and players could jog past him.

scoopyboy
18-06-2016, 11:24 AM
Scott Allan is a better player than John McGinn. He offered much more to us than McGinn. He's still a welt though. I hope him and his wee pal Halliday sat greetin' the night of the final as we had one massive party.

Nah, I would heavily wager that John McGinn will win more international caps and honours than Scott Allan.

McGinn almost played as many games last season as Allan has in his career.

21.05.2016
18-06-2016, 12:06 PM
I find the Cummings debate fascinating. It's one I've been having with my mates a lot recently, and I've found I seem to be the only one who thinks he'd be a big loss. Obviously if he wants to leave the whole thing is academic but let's assume there's the possibility of him staying.

It seems that despite scoring almost 50 goals by age 20 (despite a brutal start under Butcher) Jason isn't particularly popular among Hibs fans, certainly compared to Riordan, O'Connor or even Malonga. Is it his over-the-top cockiness? His perceived lack of his team play? His awful haircut?

I see a lot are that he'd be easily replaced, something like 'any decent striker should score 25 goals for Hibs in this league'. Except they didn't, and Jason did, despite never really clicking with Stokes and suffering a downturn in form/comfidence for much of the 2nd half of the season. If it was that easy all our strikers would have done it.

The more interesting point is that we'd be better sharing goals around. Obviously this is true, but the inference seems to be that if we sell Jason, and replace him with some sort of mythical link man striker suddenly our whole midfield would start banging them in? (Fyvie? Mcgeoch? Bartley?) If he was gone we'd suddenly automatically have wingers firing great crosses in and all our strikers would suddenly be goal machines? Was Jason somehow stealing all the chances away from everyone else? Preventing our midfielders actually running into the box and shooting? Maybe even on target now and then?

I think it's a bit unfair to lay the blame for our lack of midfield goals on Cummings. I don't recall our midfield looking radically more threatening in games where Jason didn't play (I'd be very interested if someone had stats to the contrary though). I'd say it's considerably more down to tactics and our midfielders' lack of shooting ability.

If we sell him, bring him 3 or 4 quality attacking players, change the way we play tactically to be far more direct and aggressive and score a bunch of goals then great, but there's a lot of ifs and buts in there. Would we not be better keeping Jason's goals and trying to build from there? Do folks really see Jason as that much of an impediment to us scoring/sharing goals around our team?

I hope signs a new contract. I think if there was another team with a 20 year old striker with Jason's record we'd be surprised if their fans were as happy with the possibility of selling him as plenty of Hibs fans seem to be.

I certainly wouldn't say he was unpopular. He's a character and someone with plenty confidence, I just think sometimes he's crossed the line into cockiness with some of the stuff he's come out with in the press etc and of course the semi-final "Pirlo" penalty which was a highly selfish move and was very frustrating for the fans.

I like his cheeky chappy character, the game needs more folk like that, he obviously is popular in the dressing room and confidence is a good thing for a striker to have but he just needs to make sure he doesn't cross the line into cockiness and start thinking he's Mr big shot. Like I say the penalty incident in the semi final showed a lot of immaturity and he was more interested in showing off than doing what was best for the team which was to do what he normally does, pick a corner and score. Instead, because he knew he was on the big stage with millions watching, he decided to make it all about him and go for the showboat. Fair enough perhaps if we were 3 or 4 nil up but when the game was locked at 0-0 and we desperately needed the goal, that was absolutely not the time to be experimenting with stuff like that.

Basically, he has the potential to have a fantastic career if he just settles down, keeps focused and keeps his feet firmly on the ground. Would be a hell of a shame if he was to spoil it all by thinking he has already made it. Classic example of bad attitudes ruinign careers was Ross Caldwell. Good wee striker who I felt could have done quite well but after he scored that goal at tynecastle I think he thought he had made it and he seemed to believe that that goal granted him a regular first team place. His twitter certainly suggested his attitude was very poor.