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fat freddy
04-06-2016, 07:45 AM
Just heard he's no longer with us. He won his first world title a few days after I was born in 64, he was a permanent fixture on TV throughout the sixties and seventies. He was a one off, an original, an inspiration to the world. My Hero. To many of my generation, he was The Greatest. RIP Ali

SeanWilson
04-06-2016, 07:47 AM
Just heard he's no longer with us. He won his first world title a few days after I was born in 64, he was a permanent fixture on TV throughout the sixties and seventies. He was a one off, an original, an inspiration to the world. My Hero. To many of my generation, he was The Greatest. RIP Ali

2016 has Ben a rank year for heroes dying.

RIP

Scottie
04-06-2016, 07:48 AM
RIP Ali true legend.

CRAZYHIBBY
04-06-2016, 08:36 AM
R.i.p.....the greatest

PatHead
04-06-2016, 09:43 AM
The greatest. RIP

hibee_nation
04-06-2016, 09:50 AM
I shared the same view on Ali as Smokin Joe.

Engels74
04-06-2016, 09:56 AM
Ali Bomaye RIP

hfc rd
04-06-2016, 09:57 AM
For me personally, he is the greatest sporting icon of all time. Not just the world of boxing but the whole world of sport in general have lost a huge legend.

R.I.P. Alli

greenginger
04-06-2016, 10:19 AM
Some great quotes from the man doing the rounds,

" If he even dreams about beating me he should phone up and apologise "

Killiehibbie
04-06-2016, 10:25 AM
RIP Cassius Marcellus ClayNot his chosen name.

Scott Allan Key
04-06-2016, 10:26 AM
Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un. We surely belong to God and to God we shall return.


RIP Cassius Marcellus Clay

Sorry to bring this up in this thread. That's disrespectful to 'Ali, as he changed to his Muslim name to free him from his given family slave name. You clearly don't understand his impact beyond the world of sport; in civil rights he empowered his generation and beyond transcending the enforced African diaspora and enslavement to an experience of humanity we could all relate to.

I remember my old local boxing gym in Leith had donated equipment from him. I doubt there is a community and heart he hasn't touched by his purposeful kindness and charity. Do well to remember he did this following in the footsteps of his namesakes, instead of trying to rewrite history and narrowing down his and our humanity because of prejudice.

superfurryhibby
04-06-2016, 10:29 AM
RIP Cassius Marcellus Clay

Crass and attention seeking, well done.

Pretty Boy
04-06-2016, 10:35 AM
RIP Cassius Marcellus Clay

Ernie Terell tried that nonsense about 40 years ago.

Didn't end well for him.

jockspanner
04-06-2016, 10:43 AM
He was the greatest.

Ricky Bobby
04-06-2016, 10:50 AM
A giant of a human being who gave up his prime years and the opportunity to make millions of dollars, for his principles.
The greatest RIP

jacomo
04-06-2016, 10:56 AM
For me personally, he is the greatest sporting icon of all time. Not just the world of boxing but the whole world of sport in general have lost a huge legend.

R.I.P. Alli

:agree:

Greatness personified.

Bishop Hibee
04-06-2016, 11:08 AM
It's hard to express what a sporting and cultural giant Ali was in the 70's. It wasn't until I went to secondary school that I actually met anyone black, not unusual in Edinburgh, and to see Ali as a strong, articulate and witty guy was huge. He was a de facto ambassador for blacks at a time when racism was acceptable for many.

Superb boxer too. The Hibs link is that George Smith who refereed the Ali v Cooper fight was from Leith and a Hibee.

RIP champ.

billbee
04-06-2016, 11:10 AM
R.I.P Mohammed you were simply
"The Greatest" 🌟

berwickhibee
04-06-2016, 11:17 AM
greatest and most famous sportsperson of all time, but also a great great man. dedicated last 30 years to others. this is one man who deserves the title LEGEND:not worth

High-On-Hibs
04-06-2016, 11:22 AM
Normally I would say "another good man down". But he wasn't just another good man, he truely was the greatest.

RIP Sir Muhammad Ali

One Day Soon
04-06-2016, 11:40 AM
The Greatest in almost every regard.

Perhaps the greatest athlete of all time.

An anti-war conscientious objector who did so openly, not skipping the draft through connections, and who gave up his prime boxing years in consequence.

A wit, entertainer, intellect and effectively an early rapper.

A black icon for civil rights who was also an icon for all races.

A role model for Islamic faith - for muslims and non-muslims.

A preacher of love and tolerance.

A walking talking human example of triumph over adversity and redemption over disadvantage, racism, religious bigotry, political convention and ageism.

Absolutely one of my all time heroes.

NAE NOOKIE
04-06-2016, 11:45 AM
He was fast, he was pretty, he was intelligent, he was graceful ....... he went to jail for his beliefs ............ Truly 'The Greatest' not just as a boxer, but as a man.

This was a guy who risked everything ... money, fame, status to go to jail for what he believed ............... Every cheating scrote in the world of sport prepared to abuse drugs to get what he was prepared to give up should cower at the very mention of his name.

RIP The greatest.

One Day Soon
04-06-2016, 11:50 AM
He was fast, he was pretty, he was intelligent, he was graceful ....... he went to jail for his beliefs ............ Truly 'The Greatest' not just as a boxer, but as a man.

This was a guy who risked everything ... money, fame, status to go to jail for what he believed ............... Every cheating scrote in the world of sport prepared to abuse drugs to get what he was prepared to give up should cower at the very mention of his name.

RIP The greatest.


This absolutely. One of the few people you listen to or read about that just makes you want to be a better person and do better things.

harpo
04-06-2016, 12:19 PM
It's hard to express what a sporting and cultural giant Ali was in the 70's. It wasn't until I went to secondary school that I actually met anyone black, not unusual in Edinburgh, and to see Ali as a strong, articulate and witty guy was huge. He was a de facto ambassador for blacks at a time when racism was acceptable for many.

Superb boxer too. The Hibs link is that George Smith who refereed the Ali v Cooper fight was from Leith and a Hibee.

RIP champ.

When I was a wee boy my dad pointed to George Smith while at mass at St Mary's Star of the Sea and said see that man? He was the referee at the Ali v Cooper fight. After that every time I seen George Smith I was in awe of him. Imagine what I would be like if I met Ali haha!

As a side note, George Smith also refereed the Buchanan v Watt fight.

RIP Champ

Hi Heid Yin
04-06-2016, 12:21 PM
Without doubt one of the greatest and most inspirational human beings to have ever lived
When Ali talked, everyone listened.
What a privilege to have walked the same planet during the lifetime of this legend.
Thank you Muhammed Ali for so many, many vivid memories both in and out of the ring.

makaveli1875
04-06-2016, 12:44 PM
RIP cassius clay

portyhibernian
04-06-2016, 12:50 PM
RIP Muhammad Ali, the greatest of all time. What an inspiration to everyone.

Scott Allan Key
04-06-2016, 12:52 PM
RIP cassius clay

Quit the trolling.

NAE NOOKIE
04-06-2016, 12:57 PM
RIP cassius clay

Perhaps you think you are being funny, but you're NOT .... what you are being is a disrespectful and borderline bigoted ******** .... if you had met Ali you would probably have called him 'boy'

If I was an admin you would be barred from this board for the rest of time ...... you are a ****ing disgrace !!!

makaveli1875
04-06-2016, 12:58 PM
Quit the trolling.

whats the problem

CropleyWasGod
04-06-2016, 01:00 PM
whats the problem
Think you should read up on why he changed his name.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

chinaman
04-06-2016, 01:07 PM
Xxxx off

NAE NOOKIE
04-06-2016, 01:07 PM
whats the problem

What's the problem ???

If you are aware of Ali's birth name you surely must be aware of how highly offensive it is to use it on a thread dedicated to his passing ...... do a bit of research and then come back on and delete your stupid post.

HUTCHYHIBBY
04-06-2016, 01:07 PM
Perhaps you think you are being funny, but you're NOT .... what you are being is a disrespectful and borderline bigoted ******** .... if you had met Ali you would probably have called him 'boy'

If I was an admin you would be barred from this board for the rest of time ...... you are a ****ing disgrace !!!

A slight over reaction.

NAE NOOKIE
04-06-2016, 01:18 PM
A slight over reaction.

lol .... perhaps mate, but FFS if he is trolling he has picked the wrong time and place ....... If a thread dedicated to probably the greatest sporting icon of all time cant be respected then what can?

Example ..... I love trolling all these royalist arse kissing pages on facebook, fair game to a republican like me. But when the queen shuffles off the mortal coil I will resist the temptation because there will be people out there feeling genuine grief and sadness and even I'm not that crass.

Perhaps our friend needs to learn that lesson.

Scott Allan Key
04-06-2016, 01:23 PM
whats the problem

I've said all I needed to in a previous post. It's not time for argumentation or disrespect to the person who passed on. I'm not claiming Muhammad 'Ali for myself either. As a previous poster pointed out he was both a role model for Muslims and non-Muslims alike as he exemplied his faith (believe it or not) both for Muslims and humanity in general.

The 'Cassius Clay' revisionism nonsense only comes from those who are hostile to his civil rights actions and particularly these days, him being a positive role model of Islam in the public eye, needing hidden. It is almost as if some are glad he has passed away!

Well, his deeds and name live on, precisely because he understood what he was gifted with was not his in the first place.

One Day Soon
04-06-2016, 01:47 PM
RIP cassius clay

That's a ****ing disgrace. Why not just go ahead and call him a n****r?

If you don't understand why this is grotesque you should make the effort to find out.

corby hibee
04-06-2016, 01:47 PM
Wish i was old enough to see him in his prime, never be another like him.

hibsbollah
04-06-2016, 01:49 PM
The Greatest in almost every regard.

Perhaps the greatest athlete of all time.

An anti-war conscientious objector who did so openly, not skipping the draft through connections, and who gave up his prime boxing years in consequence.

A wit, entertainer, intellect and effectively an early rapper.

A black icon for civil rights who was also an icon for all races.

A role model for Islamic faith - for muslims and non-muslims.

A preacher of love and tolerance.

A walking talking human example of triumph over adversity and redemption over disadvantage, racism, religious bigotry, political convention and ageism.

Absolutely one of my all time heroes.

Very well put. My absolute hero and was truly loved all over the world.

hibsbollah
04-06-2016, 01:51 PM
A slight over reaction.

Not at all. Using his slave name is an absolute disgrace because it's designed to offend. Id like to see him say that to Ali's face.

Hi Heid Yin
04-06-2016, 01:54 PM
whats the problem

The problem is that if you knew anything about the great man, you would respect his name change and the reasons behind it. He is Muhammed Ali and died Muhammed Ali. Cassius Clay was his slave name which he disowned early doors. He dared any man to refer to him as Cassius Clay again.
You I'm sure know all this and choose to bait and get a rise from other posters.
I agree with another poster that you are possibly a bigot and or a racist for deliberately referring to Ali as Clay.

Alex Trager
04-06-2016, 02:05 PM
Perhaps you think you are being funny, but you're NOT .... what you are being is a disrespectful and borderline bigoted ******** .... if you had met Ali you would probably have called him 'boy'

If I was an admin you would be barred from this board for the rest of time ...... you are a ****ing disgrace !!!

Waw.

Talk about disrespect.

I'd level that the original poster didn't realise his reasoning For changing his name

Alex Trager
04-06-2016, 02:08 PM
The problem is that if you knew anything about the great man, you would respect his name change and the reasons behind it. He is Muhammed Ali and died Muhammed Ali. Cassius Clay was his slave name which he disowned early doors. He dared any man to refer to him as Cassius Clay again.
You I'm sure know all this and choose to bait and get a rise from other posters.
I agree with another poster that you are possibly a bigot and or a racist for deliberately referring to Ali as Clay.

I never realised the reasoning for his name change.

I did know he was called CC before.

Sometimes folk just don't know

NAE NOOKIE
04-06-2016, 02:09 PM
Waw.

Talk about disrespect.

I'd level that the original poster didn't realise his reasoning For changing his name

And when he comes on here and says that ( after deleting his post ) I'll take back what I said and accept that what he said was due to a lack of knowledge rather than pig ignorance :aok:

Flynn
04-06-2016, 02:09 PM
The problem is that if you knew anything about the great man, you would respect his name change and the reasons behind it. He is Muhammed Ali and died Muhammed Ali. Cassius Clay was his slave name which he disowned early doors. He dared any man to refer to him as Cassius Clay again.
You I'm sure know all this and choose to bait and get a rise from other posters.
I agree with another poster that you are possibly a bigot and or a racist for deliberately referring to Ali as Clay.

Clay would be his ancestral slave name, no? Cassius would be the name his parents gave him. They weren't slave owners as far as I know.

Anyway...RIP Muhammad Ali...Legend
So much respect for the man, especially for his stance on Vietnam and going to jail for his beliefs.

Alex Trager
04-06-2016, 02:10 PM
And when he comes on here and says that ( after deleting his post ) I'll take back what I said and accept that what he said was due to a lack of knowledge rather than pig ignorance :aok:

Fair enough

McIntosh
04-06-2016, 04:24 PM
Not at all. Using his slave name is an absolute disgrace because it's designed to offend. Id like to see him say that to Ali's face. Agree totally. Like you Muhammad Ali was my all time hero - truly beloved. For someone to disrespect him in on the day he died is totally unacceptable. I would ban this person and all their IP addresses.

RIP - THE GREATEST

McIntosh
04-06-2016, 04:35 PM
Clay would be his ancestral slave name, no? Cassius would be the name his parents gave him. They weren't slave owners as far as I know.

Anyway...RIP Muhammad Ali...Legend
So much respect for the man, especially for his stance on Vietnam and going to jail for his beliefs.

My friend you first sentence only exposes your ignorance, black people in the United States and the Caribbean whose ancestors suffered the gross violation of slavery were renamed by the white slave owners. This was an exercise to emphasise ownership and strip them of their humanity. If you ever have the good fortune to visit Jamaica you would think you were in Scotland going by the massive amount of Scottish surnames.

My brother in law the poet, Mutabaruka was born Allan Hope his slave ancestors were the slaves of the Scottish Hope family. He quite rightly does not recognise his slave name and why should he?

Pete
04-06-2016, 04:42 PM
Cassius Clay (the original) was actually an abolitionist who immediately freed the slaves he inherited. One of the good guys apparently who wasn't popular due to his anti slavery stance.

Ali's grandfather was a white Irish man who married a freed slave who have birth to Ali's mum. It's rumoured that the family came to Edinburgh and attended early hibs games so I like to think that he has hibs blood in him.

p.s. I'm not sure how true any of these facts are.

Onion
04-06-2016, 06:37 PM
Never forget the build up to the Foreman fight. Everyone thought Ali - who was revered by many - would be destroyed and probably badly hurt by Foreman. The fight wasn't on TV in the UK, but was shown in cinemas like the Apollo in Glasgow.

Still remember waking up the next morning and hearing Ali had knocked George Foreman out in the 8th. Simply could not believe it. Became a Super Hero that day and probably the most famous man on the Planet. One of the greatest sporting moments, ever.

Great man, great sportsman.

lord bunberry
04-06-2016, 06:47 PM
I never realised the reasoning for his name change.

I did know he was called CC before.

Sometimes folk just don't know
He won Olympic gold under the name of Cassius Clay. When he returned to America with his medal he went for a meal and was refused because it was a white only restaurant. He left and threw his gold medal in the river. Muhammad Ali wasn't just the greatest boxer and sportsman of his generation, he was a wonderful human being who's legacy will live on long after all of us have gone.
RIP the greatest

Alex Trager
04-06-2016, 06:59 PM
He won Olympic gold under the name of Cassius Clay. When he returned to America with his medal he went for a meal and was refused because it was a white only restaurant. He left and threw his gold medal in the river. Muhammad Ali wasn't just the greatest boxer and sportsman of his generation, he was a wonderful human being who's legacy will live on long after all of us have gone.
RIP the greatest

I agree with the rest. Just never knew the deal with his name. The man is one of the few who are worthy of the title legend

Hi Heid Yin
04-06-2016, 10:24 PM
Clay would be his ancestral slave name, no? Cassius would be the name his parents gave him. They weren't slave owners as far as I know.

Anyway...RIP Muhammad Ali...Legend
So much respect for the man, especially for his stance on Vietnam and going to jail for his beliefs.

It was common practice for slaves to be given their masters surname. Muhammed Ali himself said that Clay was his slave name. That's good enough for me.

leftfield
04-06-2016, 10:31 PM
I would have placed Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandella higher in the ranks of the Greatest in my lifetime.

McIntosh
04-06-2016, 10:51 PM
I would have placed Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela higher in the ranks of the Greatest in my lifetime. If this is his peers, well he is in truly great company!!!!

Greencore
04-06-2016, 11:42 PM
Very very interesting interview with him here...

https://youtu.be/ZxA3gVcA1O0

couldnt really care though, he was an amazing boxer and was a pleasure to have watched his fights online. God bless you champ.

Rest in peace, you're with Allah now.

Time For Heroes
05-06-2016, 02:01 AM
People need to read up on Ali, the whole CC stuff on this thread has caused emotion, however, if i had internet access today id have posted something saying CC without knowing. People are too quick too jump tge gun.
Anyways, RIP Ali.
"im that bad, i make medicine sick"

camthebam
05-06-2016, 02:21 AM
Can't believe there're people bitching on this thread.

He had his faults for sure, what man doesn't? His treatment of Frazier wasn't the best, the Nation of Islam were barely in line with Malcolm, never mind King, and his destruction of Terel was brutality and humiliation of the cruellest kind, however balletic and justified.

But his plusses were he was heavyweight champion of the world, he fought for a people displaced and marginalised in his times. He refused to go to war for an unjust cause, oh how America doesn't learn. He did it all with a charm and grace never seen before. He rapped poetically in a very humorous way as he charmed the world. He was defeated, overcame adversity and took beatings along the way that almost certainly lead to his disease.

I don't do heroes. But Ali was my hero. Humility mixed with arrogance. Rightfulness mixed with mistakes. He was the paradox that defied enigma. A beautiful child within a brutal adult. A politico that knew nothing of politics. A boxer that danced more than punched. The humblest arrogance possible.

On my living room wall is the poster of him knocking Liston out. My book case, my dvd stack, are dominated by him. I just got back from NY where I got all photos taken with him in Madame Tussauds and went tourist photo crazy in Madison Square Gardens taking photos of any mention. Came home Friday and decide to watch "Ali" with Will Smith apropos of nothing much. Then word started coming through and I got told by numerous people because they know how much a fanboy I am. I'm too hard to cry but I pinched the top of my nose as I thought and rubbed the dust out my eyes.

The prettiest. The fastest. Quite simply, the Greatest. RIP, my hero.

21.05.2016
05-06-2016, 04:53 AM
A true legend. A brave man who stood up and fought for what he believed in.


RIP The Greatest

Pete
05-06-2016, 06:12 AM
Can't believe there're people bitching on this thread.

He had his faults for sure, what man doesn't? His treatment of Frazier wasn't the best, the Nation of Islam were barely in line with Malcolm, never mind King, and his destruction of Terel was brutality and humiliation of the cruellest kind, however balletic and justified.

But his plusses were he was heavyweight champion of the world, he fought for a people displaced and marginalised in his times. He refused to go to war for an unjust cause, oh how America doesn't learn. He did it all with a charm and grace never seen before. He rapped poetically in a very humorous way as he charmed the world. He was defeated, overcame adversity and took beatings along the way that almost certainly lead to his disease.

I don't do heroes. But Ali was my hero. Humility mixed with arrogance. Rightfulness mixed with mistakes. He was the paradox that defied enigma. A beautiful child within a brutal adult. A politico that knew nothing of politics. A boxer that danced more than punched. The humblest arrogance possible.

On my living room wall is the poster of him knocking Liston out. My book case, my dvd stack, are dominated by him. I just got back from NY where I got all photos taken with him in Madame Tussauds and went tourist photo crazy in Madison Square Gardens taking photos of any mention. Came home Friday and decide to watch "Ali" with Will Smith apropos of nothing much. Then word started coming through and I got told by numerous people because they know how much a fanboy I am. I'm too hard to cry but I pinched the top of my nose as I thought and rubbed the dust out my eyes.

The prettiest. The fastest. Quite simply, the Greatest. RIP, my hero.

"Wasn't the best" is putting it mildly. He said some of the worst things that one black man could say to another.

I'm not going to comment on the double standards from some posters. All I'll say is that he can appear on as many chat shows with Frazier as he wants and apologise 'till the cows come home but it's up to the recipient of the abuse to determine how serious it was and wether there should be any forgiveness.

Sorry for the dampener but I have sporting icons who I would consider "the greatest" and none of them felt the need to lower themselves to that level.

mjhibby
05-06-2016, 09:51 AM
I would have placed Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandella higher in the ranks of the Greatest in my lifetime.

The reason Ali is the greatest is that through his unbelievable hand speed,his intelligence in the ring and charisma he transcended all barriers and made him the most recognised man on the planet. Much as mlt and Mandela were colossal figures Ali was the most amazing guy. Listened to his fights on the radio when I was a wee lad. R.i.p champ. There will never be another.

leither17
05-06-2016, 10:03 PM
Front page of the Sun tomorrow has his last photo on it. With all the iconic pictures of him over the years they go with that

Carheenlea
05-06-2016, 10:28 PM
BBC Sportsound have rebroadcast a programme where sports writer Hugh McIlvanney recalls his memories of Ali in his own inimitable style. A fascinating listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03x9nwz

Pumphyhibby
06-06-2016, 03:39 AM
As much as its sad that Ali has died but there is no getting away from the fact the guy was as racist as any KKK member, the nation of Islam, of which Ali was a member, were on par in the racism scale as the KKK. Malcolm X was Ali's close friend for years but Ali turned his back on him because of his moderate views and because he thought all colours could live in harmony.
The nation of Islam were for black separatism and were influential in the black panthers movement, Ali's good friend Malcolm X was assassinated a year after Ali publicly shunned him by publicly turning his back on him, though probably unrelated it was thought that the nation of Islam were involved in Malcolm X's assassination.

After Ali converted to Muslim through the nation of Islam, there were always people from the NOI in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview, Ali was being used for recruitment to the NOI, He was instrumental in the NOI,'s popularity at the time. His treatment of some of his fellow boxers, particularly some black boxers who he thought were too friendly with whites.

He probably had his reasons for turning to Islam (they say Malcolm X talked him into it) as America at the time was still a very racist country that still had segregation in the south, When he was Casius Clay and had just won the gold medal he went out in his home town for a celebratory meal but was turned away from the restaurant as it was for whites only, he shortly afterwards chucked the gold medal in the local river.

There is no getting away from how good a boxer/entertainer he was but there was no getting away from it, he was a racist, he was a Zionist hater who visited Israel to try and use his fame to get Israel to release 700 Muslim prisoners.

Ali may have been a victim of the times and was probably manipulated by the NOI, personally I thought he was a great sportsman and entertainer but wouldn't put him in the "greatest" category due to his racial/political beliefs, maybe if he hadn't shunned Malcolm X and went down a more moderate path I might have more respect for him. It's not only whites who can be racists 😉

pacoluna
06-06-2016, 09:39 AM
He won Olympic gold under the name of Cassius Clay. When he returned to America with his medal he went for a meal and was refused because it was a white only restaurant. He left and threw his gold medal in the river. Muhammad Ali wasn't just the greatest boxer and sportsman of his generation, he was a wonderful human being who's legacy will live on long after all of us have gone.
RIP the greatest

When the restaurant owner told the great Ali " we don't serve n*****s " Ali's response was " That's great, because I don't eat n*****s". :greengrin

JimBHibees
06-06-2016, 09:55 AM
BBC Sportsound have rebroadcast a programme where sports writer Hugh McIlvanney recalls his memories of Ali in his own inimitable style. A fascinating listen.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03x9nwz

The McIlvvanney podcast are brilliant, listened to a few absolutely different class on a number of sports.

superfurryhibby
06-06-2016, 10:25 AM
As much as its sad that Ali has died but there is no getting away from the fact the guy was as racist as any KKK member, the nation of Islam, of which Ali was a member, were on par in the racism scale as the KKK. Malcolm X was Ali's close friend for years but Ali turned his back on him because of his moderate views and because he thought all colours could live in harmony.
The nation of Islam were for black separatism and were influential in the black panthers movement, Ali's good friend Malcolm X was assassinated a year after Ali publicly shunned him by publicly turning his back on him, though probably unrelated it was thought that the nation of Islam were involved in Malcolm X's assassination.

After Ali converted to Muslim through the nation of Islam, there were always people from the NOI in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview, Ali was being used for recruitment to the NOI, He was instrumental in the NOI,'s popularity at the time. His treatment of some of his fellow boxers, particularly some black boxers who he thought were too friendly with whites.

He probably had his reasons for turning to Islam (they say Malcolm X talked him into it) as America at the time was still a very racist country that still had segregation in the south, When he was Casius Clay and had just won the gold medal he went out in his home town for a celebratory meal but was turned away from the restaurant as it was for whites only, he shortly afterwards chucked the gold medal in the local river.

There is no getting away from how good a boxer/entertainer he was but there was no getting away from it, he was a racist, he was a Zionist hater who visited Israel to try and use his fame to get Israel to release 700 Muslim prisoners.

Ali may have been a victim of the times and was probably manipulated by the NOI, personally I thought he was a great sportsman and entertainer but wouldn't put him in the "greatest" category due to his racial/political beliefs, maybe if he hadn't shunned Malcolm X and went down a more moderate path I might have more respect for him. It's not only whites who can be racists 


That's quite a first post Pumphy gadge.

I can't pretend that I know a great deal about Ali's politics or his conversion to Islam. I suppose it was a time of change and the Nation of Islam was a radical response to the absolutely horrendous levels of oppression if black people in the so called land of the free. It was a time of struggle and needs placed in the context of what was happening in the USA at the time. Lines were being drawn and if you consider the assasination of Martin Luther King and Kennedy, it suggested that the forces of oppression were not going to give up power easilly.

Equally, what you highlight in respect of Israel. Not sure that being anti-Zionist equates to being racist, nor would agitating for the release of political prisoners?

I read a long Ali biography years ago and never really focused on his beliefs, more his actions, although I do recall Joe Frazier making some poignant statements about the accusations of being an all white black boy and religion.

Rasta_Hibs
06-06-2016, 10:29 AM
RIP The Greatest!

McIntosh
06-06-2016, 10:54 AM
As much as its sad that Ali has died but there is no getting away from the fact the guy was as racist as any KKK member, the nation of Islam, of which Ali was a member, were on par in the racism scale as the KKK. Malcolm X was Ali's close friend for years but Ali turned his back on him because of his moderate views and because he thought all colours could live in harmony.
The nation of Islam were for black separatism and were influential in the black panthers movement, Ali's good friend Malcolm X was assassinated a year after Ali publicly shunned him by publicly turning his back on him, though probably unrelated it was thought that the nation of Islam were involved in Malcolm X's assassination.

After Ali converted to Muslim through the nation of Islam, there were always people from the NOI in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview, Ali was being used for recruitment to the NOI, He was instrumental in the NOI,'s popularity at the time. His treatment of some of his fellow boxers, particularly some black boxers who he thought were too friendly with whites.

He probably had his reasons for turning to Islam (they say Malcolm X talked him into it) as America at the time was still a very racist country that still had segregation in the south, When he was Casius Clay and had just won the gold medal he went out in his home town for a celebratory meal but was turned away from the restaurant as it was for whites only, he shortly afterwards chucked the gold medal in the local river.

There is no getting away from how good a boxer/entertainer he was but there was no getting away from it, he was a racist, he was a Zionist hater who visited Israel to try and use his fame to get Israel to release 700 Muslim prisoners.

Ali may have been a victim of the times and was probably manipulated by the NOI, personally I thought he was a great sportsman and entertainer but wouldn't put him in the "greatest" category due to his racial/political beliefs, maybe if he hadn't shunned Malcolm X and went down a more moderate path I might have more respect for him. It's not only whites who can be racists  Some post but you really need to place this within its historical context, particularly Pan Africanism. http://www.biography.com/people/marcus-garvey-9307319 As for being an anti fascist, in your words "Zionist hater" that is to his enduring credit.

Lester B
06-06-2016, 10:57 AM
As much as its sad that Ali has died but there is no getting away from the fact the guy was as racist as any KKK member, the nation of Islam, of which Ali was a member, were on par in the racism scale as the KKK. Malcolm X was Ali's close friend for years but Ali turned his back on him because of his moderate views and because he thought all colours could live in harmony.
The nation of Islam were for black separatism and were influential in the black panthers movement, Ali's good friend Malcolm X was assassinated a year after Ali publicly shunned him by publicly turning his back on him, though probably unrelated it was thought that the nation of Islam were involved in Malcolm X's assassination.

After Ali converted to Muslim through the nation of Islam, there were always people from the NOI in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview, Ali was being used for recruitment to the NOI, He was instrumental in the NOI,'s popularity at the time. His treatment of some of his fellow boxers, particularly some black boxers who he thought were too friendly with whites.

He probably had his reasons for turning to Islam (they say Malcolm X talked him into it) as America at the time was still a very racist country that still had segregation in the south, When he was Casius Clay and had just won the gold medal he went out in his home town for a celebratory meal but was turned away from the restaurant as it was for whites only, he shortly afterwards chucked the gold medal in the local river.

There is no getting away from how good a boxer/entertainer he was but there was no getting away from it, he was a racist, he was a Zionist hater who visited Israel to try and use his fame to get Israel to release 700 Muslim prisoners.

Ali may have been a victim of the times and was probably manipulated by the NOI, personally I thought he was a great sportsman and entertainer but wouldn't put him in the "greatest" category due to his racial/political beliefs, maybe if he hadn't shunned Malcolm X and went down a more moderate path I might have more respect for him. It's not only whites who can be racists 

You clearly have some knowledge of Ali's life. It's even more of a pity therefore that this is full of half truths, leaps in logic, inaccuracies and plain nonsense.

Yes he was full of contradictions in his earlier life and the NOI is part of that. He became a Sunni Muslim in 1975, very far from what NOI believed. Even well before then white men like Angelo Dundee, Ferdie Pachecho and Gene Kilroy were intrinsic parts of his team. He spoke at length on several occasions about his regret that he did not follow Malcolm X's direction at the time. He also talked about his regret about the way he treated other fighters at the time particularly Frazier. For fans of Ali the Terrell fight is not an easy thing to contemplate either. Ergo he did go down that 'moderate path' as you put it. He went down that path for 41 of his 74 years.

There were not people from NOI 'in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview'. He could talk for himself and he did so. Interestingly he was initially refused entry into NOI because he was a professional sportsman. There is absolutely no link between NOI and the Black Panthers at all and I fail to see what point you think you are making by bracketing the two together.

You say he was a 'Zionist hater'. What does that actually mean. Are you implying anti Semitism? Or just randomly mud slinging??

You use the phrase 'no getting away from it' a lot above. There's no getting away from this; what you wrote was dismal, ill informed rubbish.

And there's no getting away from these quotes from the GOAT himself:

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn’t matter which color does the hating. It’s just plain wrong."

Scott Allan Key
06-06-2016, 11:12 AM
You clearly have some knowledge of Ali's life. It's even more of a pity therefore that this is full of half truths, leaps in logic, inaccuracies and plain nonsense.

Yes he was full of contradictions in his earlier life and the NOI is part of that. He became a Sunni Muslim in 1975, very far from what NOI believed. Even well before then white men like Angelo Dundee, Ferdie Pachecho and Gene Kilroy were intrinsic parts of his team. He spoke at length on several occasions about his regret that he did not follow Malcolm X's direction at the time. He also talked about his regret about the way he treated other fighters at the time particularly Frazier. For fans of Ali the Terrell fight is not an easy thing to contemplate either. Ergo he did go down that 'moderate path' as you put it. He went down that path for 41 of his 74 years.

There were not people from NOI 'in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview'. He could talk for himself and he did so. Interestingly he was initially refused entry into NOI because he was a professional sportsman. There is absolutely no link between NOI and the Black Panthers at all and I fail to see what point you think you are making by bracketing the two together.

You say he was a 'Zionist hater'. What does that actually mean. Are you implying anti Semitism? Or just randomly mud slinging??

You use the phrase 'no getting away from it' a lot above. There's no getting away from this; what you wrote was dismal, ill informed rubbish.

And there's no getting away from these quotes from the GOAT himself:

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn’t matter which color does the hating. It’s just plain wrong."

Great post and addition to this, he had assistant trainers who were Jewish as well as numerous friendships with writers and journalists. Notwithstanding when in Nation of Islam he took it upon himself to help a Jewish old people's home facing closure with funds. He was all heart and showed he did recognise his misdeeds, as far as I am I aware.

Lester B
06-06-2016, 11:19 AM
Great post and addition to this, he had assistant trainers who were Jewish as well as numerous friendships with writers and journalists. Notwithstanding when in Nation of Islam he took it upon himself to help a Jewish old people's home facing closure with funds. He was all heart and showed he did recognise his misdeeds, as far as I am I aware.

Exactly. Drew 'Bundini' Brown invented the float like a butterfly line and he was Jewish. The old people's home story is true too. He saw it on the news just before the first Frazier fight. Donated $100,000 on the grounds that it was anonymous and it emerged later that it was him.

I just don't get the naysayers. He wasn't perfect. Who is?

SouthsideHarp_Bhoy
06-06-2016, 11:37 AM
I dont know a lot about him, but feom what ive watched and read, he seems to me a bit of a confused soul.

I saw the interview he sid with parky where he denies even having any white friends, but i get the sense that at various times in his life was fulfilling a role.

It seems to me that he did some bad rhings and made some bad choices (who doesnt / hasnt) but when his mask slipped, it seemed to reveal a friendly, likeable and genuine person. I believe he was acting away feom his character when he was not like that, not the converse.

Ive no doubt his mouth was quicker than his brain at times, and as seems so often the case with boxers, he was a bit of a puppet for other peoples devices, but i do believe he was a good man, possibly a great man.

The saddest thing was how he pushed his career way beyond what he should have been allowed to, surely contributing to his brain injury.

Ps, i think debating his legacy is fine and should be encouraged, i doubt any person is 100% great or even 100% bad - people are nuanced, changeable and even contradictory - its what makes us so compelling

Pumphyhibby
06-06-2016, 12:05 PM
You clearly have some knowledge of Ali's life. It's even more of a pity therefore that this is full of half truths, leaps in logic, inaccuracies and plain nonsense.

Yes he was full of contradictions in his earlier life and the NOI is part of that. He became a Sunni Muslim in 1975, very far from what NOI believed. Even well before then white men like Angelo Dundee, Ferdie Pachecho and Gene Kilroy were intrinsic parts of his team. He spoke at length on several occasions about his regret that he did not follow Malcolm X's direction at the time. He also talked about his regret about the way he treated other fighters at the time particularly Frazier. For fans of Ali the Terrell fight is not an easy thing to contemplate either. Ergo he did go down that 'moderate path' as you put it. He went down that path for 41 of his 74 years.

There were not people from NOI 'in the forefront of every Ali fight and public interview'. He could talk for himself and he did so. Interestingly he was initially refused entry into NOI because he was a professional sportsman. There is absolutely no link between NOI and the Black Panthers at all and I fail to see what point you think you are making by bracketing the two together.

You say he was a 'Zionist hater'. What does that actually mean. Are you implying anti Semitism? Or just randomly mud slinging??

You use the phrase 'no getting away from it' a lot above. There's no getting away from this; what you wrote was dismal, ill informed rubbish.

And there's no getting away from these quotes from the GOAT himself:

"A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life."

"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn’t matter which color does the hating. It’s just plain wrong."

OK, its obvious you read different books and websites from me and are obviously a fanboy, me, I'm indifferent either way to his greatness, I was just highlighting that he wasn't a squeaky clean sports star as was being portrayed.
Cassius clay won the gold in 60 while the athletes did the black panther salute only 8 years later, and I'm sure I read somewhere that Ali was the inspiration of john Carlos and Tommie Smith.

Ali may have decided that his early life was wrong or didn't fit in with his public persona in later life, I did and said many things when I was younger that through education and experience I completely abhor now, but there is no getting away from what you say and do and you can't airbrush out the bad parts of anyone's life to make them seem better than they really are.

http://www.thenation.com/article/muhammad-ali-and-the-black-panther-party/
https://youtu.be/qCG_Fl9uVP8

It has been said by many that Ali had been misled and exploited to further the NOI but it was also said that he used them to further his career, you may well completely disagree with this but each to their own opinions, mines is Ali was a great but not the greatest, I am a atheist and hate religion and to me peoples religious beliefs (rightly or wrongly) help me to define the person.

Lester B
06-06-2016, 12:22 PM
OK, its obvious you read different books and websites from me and are obviously a fanboy, me, I'm indifferent either way to his greatness, I was just highlighting that he wasn't a squeaky clean sports star as was being portrayed.
Cassius clay won the gold in 60 while the athletes did the black panther salute only 8 years later, and I'm sure I read somewhere that Ali was the inspiration of john Carlos and Tommie Smith.

Ali may have decided that his early life was wrong or didn't fit in with his public persona in later life, I did and said many things when I was younger that through education and experience I completely abhor now, but there is no getting away from what you say and do and you can't airbrush out the bad parts of anyone's life to make them seem better than they really are.

http://www.thenation.com/article/muhammad-ali-and-the-black-panther-party/
https://youtu.be/qCG_Fl9uVP8

It has been said by many that Ali had been misled and exploited to further the NOI but it was also said that he used them to further his career, you may well completely disagree with this but each to their own opinions, mines is Ali was a great but not the greatest, I am a atheist and hate religion and to me peoples religious beliefs (rightly or wrongly) help me to define the person.

For what it's worth I'm an atheist too. I don't hate religion though per se.

Yes I am an Ali fanboy too as you suggest though I'm not sure whether you think describing me as such is pejorative.

Of course the Black Panthers were inspired by Ali. He was the most famous black man in the world and was against the American establishment visibly. Your point was the link between NOI and the Panthers. There is none. NOI had an esoteric (and that's putting it kindly) interpretation of a religious faith. The Panthers were essentially socialist in their views.

I don't think he was squeaky clean far from it. And I agree completely we all have done and said things we regret in the past. But his courage in standing up for his beliefs when it was clear he would get a cushy role in the Army cheerleading the Vietnam war and still making millions by continuing to fight? His astounding abilities in managing fights particularly the first Liston fight, the Foreman fight and the last against Frazier? I'll always argue the good outweighs the bad for Ali.

And to return to Hibs I reckon there's a serious analogy between the Rumble in the Jungle and the 2016 Cup Final. But that's another story entirely.......

Kato
06-06-2016, 12:25 PM
I am a atheist and hate religion and to me peoples religious beliefs (rightly or wrongly) help me to define the person.




So you're not without bias yourself?

Pumphyhibby
06-06-2016, 01:59 PM
So you're not without bias yourself?

No one is, only the degree of bias define us 😉

Pumphyhibby
06-06-2016, 02:40 PM
For what it's worth I'm an atheist too. I don't hate religion though per se.

Yes I am an Ali fanboy too as you suggest though I'm not sure whether you think describing me as such is pejorative.

Of course the Black Panthers were inspired by Ali. He was the most famous black man in the world and was against the American establishment visibly. Your point was the link between NOI and the Panthers. There is none. NOI had an esoteric (and that's putting it kindly) interpretation of a religious faith. The Panthers were essentially socialist in their views.

I don't think he was squeaky clean far from it. And I agree completely we all have done and said things we regret in the past. But his courage in standing up for his beliefs when it was clear he would get a cushy role in the Army cheerleading the Vietnam war and still making millions by continuing to fight? His astounding abilities in managing fights particularly the first Liston fight, the Foreman fight and the last against Frazier? I'll always argue the good outweighs the bad for Ali.

And to return to Hibs I reckon there's a serious analogy between the Rumble in the Jungle and the 2016 Cup Final. But that's another story entirely.......

I used the word fanboy to highlight that you were very much a Ali fan as where as I'm totally indifferent to him, you look on his good things and decided that they very much outweigh his bad points, wasn't trying to be derogatory in any way.
Many members of the NOI were in the black panthers and even today they are still intertwined with the new black panther party recently guarding a NOI mosque in Dallas during a anti Muslim rally.

I am as I said very anti religion, all religions, I have seen what religion can do and have experienced the worst of religion with my first experience being in Sarajevo and recently in Sinjar, but it's not all just muslims, Christians also have a history of atrocities as well.

My 5 degrees of religion define my opinion of people, And coming from Pumpherston I have had numerous occasions of religious bigotry just for being a Hibby, luckily though it's not as bad as it was as both lodges and the flute band no longer exists 😂

Wee Effen Bee
06-06-2016, 02:48 PM
No one is, only the degree of bias define us 

Sad that such an accomplished and celebrated sportsman who did so much for others is now gone. However, I was only 7 at the time of the Parkinson interview and I remember it clearly. Yes I have watched it a couple of times since and it becomes more depressing. When I add that to other auto biographical/biographical pieces it has to be said that the man was a clear racist and a hostile non-integrationist. He regularly promoted Islam's stance, on topics such as homosexuality, and other times he regularly contradicted himself. I just wonder how the world would have taken to him if he was white and promoted Ali's ideals on the same subjects. Ali did help promote black politics but it wasn't all encompassing!
That English boxer was rightly condemned for his radge views on women and gays.
On a lighter note, It is right that all viewpoints on current issues are debated and that's why I like reading Hibs.net: on the whole there are well thought out pieces to keep a reasoned debate going and it doesn't usually descend into farce. I always remember my dad saying that two opposing arguments coming from different bases can be correct about one single issue: one single person can simultaneously be both a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Depends which camp your in.

Pumphyhibby
06-06-2016, 03:19 PM
Sad that such an accomplished and celebrated sportsman who did so much for others is now gone. However, I was only 7 at the time of the Parkinson interview and I remember it clearly. Yes I have watched it a couple of times since and it becomes more depressing. When I add that to other auto biographical/biographical pieces it has to be said that the man was a clear racist and a hostile non-integrationist. He regularly promoted Islam's stance, on topics such as homosexuality, and other times he regularly contradicted himself. I just wonder how the world would have taken to him if he was white and promoted Ali's ideals on the same subjects. Ali did help promote black politics but it wasn't all encompassing!
That English boxer was rightly condemned for his radge views on women and gays.
On a lighter note, It is right that all viewpoints on current issues are debated and that's why I like reading Hibs.net: on the whole there are well thought out pieces to keep a reasoned debate going and it doesn't usually descend into farce. I always remember my dad saying that two opposing arguments coming from different bases can be correct about one single issue: one single person can simultaneously be both a terrorist and a freedom fighter. Depends which camp your in.
Good post, Ali was probably a victim of the time, and without being there its hard to know exactly what was going on, many black people were blamed for crimes they didn't commit, as in the story of Rubin Carter, who was boxer framed for a murder he didn't commit. Maybe Ali got in tow with the NOI for safety in numbers but going by the way America was at the time that's highly unlikely.

Lester B
06-06-2016, 03:43 PM
I used the word fanboy to highlight that you were very much a Ali fan as where as I'm totally indifferent to him, you look on his good things and decided that they very much outweigh his bad points, wasn't trying to be derogatory in any way.
Many members of the NOI were in the black panthers and even today they are still intertwined with the new black panther party recently guarding a NOI mosque in Dallas during a anti Muslim rally.

I am as I said very anti religion, all religions, I have seen what religion can do and have experienced the worst of religion with my first experience being in Sarajevo and recently in Sinjar, but it's not all just muslims, Christians also have a history of atrocities as well.

My 5 degrees of religion define my opinion of people, And coming from Pumpherston I have had numerous occasions of religious bigotry just for being a Hibby, luckily though it's not as bad as it was as both lodges and the flute band no longer exists 

Not a problem and I didn't regard it as derogatory. Proud to be an Ali fanboy.

But let's be clear. In the sixties there was no connection between NOI and the Black Panther movement. Yes there are connections between the current NOI and the New Black Panther movement but if you are aware of the NBP you'll also be aware that the original Black Panther leaders have been highly critical of them as a hate group who are pursuing a separatist agenda unlike the original Panthers. The New Black Panthers and indeed the NOI have very little to do with what Ali said about race for the last 40 years of his life.