What constitutes 'failure' in Scottish football?

[G B Young]

At the start of each season every club in Scotland competes for the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and the championship title of whatever league they're in.

There can be only one winner of each competition, but 'success' is surely reflected by more than actually winning a competition? Just as a golfer or tennis player who finishes as runner-up in a couple of majors or grand slam events could be said to have enjoyed a successful season, it's surely the case that football teams who fall just short of winning a competition have nevertheless achieved a significant level of success.

If Hibs lose to Rangers next weekend does that mean our season will be deemed a 'failure'? If so I find that a cruel assessment. To reach both domestic finals for the first time, as a Championship club is, in my opinion a pretty remarkable achievement and one unlikely to be repeated. 'Failure' would surely be to have exited both cup tournaments early and have done little more than tread water in the league.

No, we didn't achieve promotion but was our success in the cup competitions at least partly attributable to the costly mini-slump in the league? I think it would be fair to say it was. Yes, I agree that for a club of our stature to have not at least reached the play-off final was hugely disappointing but jeez, we endured cruel luck in the Falkirk play-offs. Refereeing blunders, a wonder strike and a goalkeeping blunder were key to our downfall. Of course we can point the finger at the team not being able to see the games out when leading, but over the course of the season there have been numerous occasions when our bottle could not be questioned. In particular I'm referring to the cup games v Hearts and Inverness, two fixtures which have been historically awful for Hibs yet v Hearts we came back from 2-0 down to win the tie and against Inverness we picked ourselves up for a trip north just three days after losing the League Cup final (another game I felt we didn't deserve to lose). In the Scottish Cup semi-final too, we overcame an increasingly weary performance to stand up strong and take control of the penalty shoot-out.

What I'm trying to say, in a long-winded way, is that Hibs deserve more credit than they're getting for what they HAVE achieved rather than getting slated from all sides for what they haven't done. When we lost the play-off to Hamilton many of us sensed the club could be in the lower leagues for quite some time. That's proved to be the case, but for me the difference in the way the club is run from top to bottom is like night and day since that day and hard as it may seem to fans wearied by so many heartbreaks, I think the good far outweighs the bad.

There's been much to enjoy this season and we really do deserve something to show for our efforts. It would be wonderful to think that could come in the form of the Scottish Cup, but even it doesn't I'll be back for more next season.

[ChooseLife]

Hibernian

[Smartie]

I think there will be a level of expectation per competition, things such as attendances will be taken into account and then barely-measurable factors like feelgood factor.

We won't have had any expectation in the Petrofac Cup and won't have been bothered to have been knocked out in the first round.

We have exceeded expectations in the League Cup and the Scottish Cup (for all we try to win it, it is probably considered to be a relative success as long as we reach the semis).

The league (the most important one) was an out-and-out failure. To fail to finish second and then lose before getting to the play-off final was totally unacceptable.

Attendances have been reasonable (given where we are) and feel-good factor mixed. We've not exactly had mobs with pitchforks outside the front doors but were not exactly 100% behind what is going on either.

In the Scottish Cup, we're 90 minutes from what could be one of the most important results in our history yet because of recent events I'm sure I'm not the only one that's finding it hard to get up for this one. Which would have been entirely unthinkable had we petered out into a poor 9th in the Premier League or similar.

A real mixed bag.

[Killiehibbie]

League campaign we failed as objective was to get promoted. Both cup campaigns have exceeded expectations.

[stantonhibby]

I think if we had been knocked out the cups earlier we would have pushed Rangers a lot harder and easily finished 2nd.

[DH1875]

At the start of each season every club in Scotland competes for the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and the championship title of whatever league they're in.

There can be only one winner of each competition, but 'success' is surely reflected by more than actually winning a competition? Just as a golfer or tennis player who finishes as runner-up in a couple of majors or grand slam events could be said to have enjoyed a successful season, it's surely the case that football teams who fall just short of winning a competition have nevertheless achieved a significant level of success.

If Hibs lose to Rangers next weekend does that mean our season will be deemed a 'failure'? If so I find that a cruel assessment. To reach both domestic finals for the first time, as a Championship club is, in my opinion a pretty remarkable achievement and one unlikely to be repeated. 'Failure' would surely be to have exited both cup tournaments early and have done little more than tread water in the league.

No, we didn't achieve promotion but was our success in the cup competitions at least partly attributable to the costly mini-slump in the league? I think it would be fair to say it was. Yes, I agree that for a club of our stature to have not at least reached the play-off final was hugely disappointing but jeez, we endured cruel luck in the Falkirk play-offs. Refereeing blunders, a wonder strike and a goalkeeping blunder were key to our downfall. Of course we can point the finger at the team not being able to see the games out when leading, but over the course of the season there have been numerous occasions when our bottle could not be questioned. In particular I'm referring to the cup games v Hearts and Inverness, two fixtures which have been historically awful for Hibs yet v Hearts we came back from 2-0 down to win the tie and against Inverness we picked ourselves up for a trip north just three days after losing the League Cup final (another game I felt we didn't deserve to lose). In the Scottish Cup semi-final too, we overcame an increasingly weary performance to stand up strong and take control of the penalty shoot-out.

What I'm trying to say, in a long-winded way, is that Hibs deserve more credit than they're getting for what they HAVE achieved rather than getting slated from all sides for what they haven't done. When we lost the play-off to Hamilton many of us sensed the club could be in the lower leagues for quite some time. That's proved to be the case, but for me the difference in the way the club is run from top to bottom is like night and day since that day and hard as it may seem to fans wearied by so many heartbreaks, I think the good far outweighs the bad.

There's been much to enjoy this season and we really do deserve something to show for our efforts. It would be wonderful to think that could come in the form of the Scottish Cup, but even it doesn't I'll be back for more next season.



Nope, losing a game against Alloa, Dumbarton, Morton, Raith, Falkirk and Ross County is failure. To lose to them ALL in the same season is a ducking joke. The day I start to see it differently is the day I give in altogether.

[SkintHibby]

Cant believe we have beaten Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Saint Johnstone this season and are going to end up with hee haw to show for it.

[Mango Man]

Cant believe we have beaten Rangers, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Saint Johnstone this season and are going to end up with hee haw to show for it.

It's quite incredible eh?! Done so well in these games, yet this feels like one of the most devastating seasons we have ever had.

[hibs69]

Alloa
dumbarton
hibernian
falkirk
greenock morton
livingston
QOS
Raith Rovers
St Mirren
The Rangers

two spots available to get out of that ^^^^ league. Not achieving one is failure in my eyes.

Not a hypocrite and say I haven't enjoyed the cup runs, (and will celebrate to another level next week should we win) but the cup runs have been a cause to the failure of the main season objective= Promotion.

That is what constitutes failure with regards to Hibernian, and therefore their involvement in Scottish Football.

[IberianHibernian]

If we`d gone out of cups earlier we might well have got 5 or 6 points more in the league but doubt it would have been enough to catch Rangers and we could still have lost unluckily to Falkirk / Raith in playoff semi . Cash from cup runs must soften the financial blow of not getting promotion . What is hard to take is that I think we could have done well ( top 6 and maybe even top 4 ) if we`d gone up as team has shown it can beat Premiership teams and promotion would have led to more interest in club etc. A cup win would certainly help to alleviate pain as well as taking us to last 16 of League Cup and a possible lucrative European match or two .

[Hibernia&Alba]

Nope, losing a game against Alloa, Dumbarton, Morton, Raith, Falkirk and Ross County is failure. To lose to them ALL in the same season is a ducking joke. The day I start to see it differently is the day I give in altogether.


Fair comment, those results are embarrassing, yet we've had some terrific cup results. Bizarre season overall.

[Yorkshire HFC]

At the start of each season every club in Scotland competes for the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and the championship title of whatever league they're in.

There can be only one winner of each competition, but 'success' is surely reflected by more than actually winning a competition? Just as a golfer or tennis player who finishes as runner-up in a couple of majors or grand slam events could be said to have enjoyed a successful season, it's surely the case that football teams who fall just short of winning a competition have nevertheless achieved a significant level of success.

If Hibs lose to Rangers next weekend does that mean our season will be deemed a 'failure'? If so I find that a cruel assessment. To reach both domestic finals for the first time, as a Championship club is, in my opinion a pretty remarkable achievement and one unlikely to be repeated. 'Failure' would surely be to have exited both cup tournaments early and have done little more than tread water in the league.

No, we didn't achieve promotion but was our success in the cup competitions at least partly attributable to the costly mini-slump in the league? I think it would be fair to say it was. Yes, I agree that for a club of our stature to have not at least reached the play-off final was hugely disappointing but jeez, we endured cruel luck in the Falkirk play-offs. Refereeing blunders, a wonder strike and a goalkeeping blunder were key to our downfall. Of course we can point the finger at the team not being able to see the games out when leading, but over the course of the season there have been numerous occasions when our bottle could not be questioned. In particular I'm referring to the cup games v Hearts and Inverness, two fixtures which have been historically awful for Hibs yet v Hearts we came back from 2-0 down to win the tie and against Inverness we picked ourselves up for a trip north just three days after losing the League Cup final (another game I felt we didn't deserve to lose). In the Scottish Cup semi-final too, we overcame an increasingly weary performance to stand up strong and take control of the penalty shoot-out.

What I'm trying to say, in a long-winded way, is that Hibs deserve more credit than they're getting for what they HAVE achieved rather than getting slated from all sides for what they haven't done. When we lost the play-off to Hamilton many of us sensed the club could be in the lower leagues for quite some time. That's proved to be the case, but for me the difference in the way the club is run from top to bottom is like night and day since that day and hard as it may seem to fans wearied by so many heartbreaks, I think the good far outweighs the bad.

There's been much to enjoy this season and we really do deserve something to show for our efforts. It would be wonderful to think that could come in the form of the Scottish Cup, but even it doesn't I'll be back for more next season.

What is it that's changed from night to day in the running of the club? I don't see anything that's improved over the last few years. But that doesn't really bother me at all - all that bothers me is how we perform on the pitch - and not getting out of this division is a massive failure. Three (+?) years out of the SPL dilutes the whole club - it means that people who went to 10 matches a season will go to 3, that people who go a coup,e of times a year will not bother at all, but will wait until things get better - that's where I am.

[Scouse Hibee]

Hibs = The definition of failure in Scottish football.

[Sir David Gray]

This season is ultimately a failure as our aim was to be promoted.

A club the size of Hibs should be looking to be in the top four or five of the Premiership in pretty much every single season.

The fact that we're now going to be in the Championship for the third successive year is completely unacceptable.

[northstandhibby]

This season is ultimately a failure as our aim was to be promoted.

A club the size of Hibs should be looking to be in the top four or five of the Premiership in pretty much every single season.

The fact that we're now going to be in the Championship for the third successive year is completely unacceptable.

Agreed. But if we win the Cup on Saturday I won't be thinking about the League. The celebration party will go on for days if not weeks.

GGTTH

[Hi Heid Yin]

[QUOTE=G B Young;4688506]At the start of each season every club in Scotland competes for the League Cup, the Scottish Cup and the championship title of whatever league they're in.

There can be only one winner of each competition, but 'success' is surely reflected by more than actually winning a competition? Just as a golfer or tennis player who finishes as runner-up in a couple of majors or grand slam events could be said to have enjoyed a successful season, it's surely the case that football teams who fall just short of winning a competition have nevertheless achieved a significant level of success.

If Hibs lose to Rangers next weekend does that mean our season will be deemed a 'failure'? If so I find that a cruel assessment. To reach both domestic finals for the first time, as a Championship club is, in my opinion a pretty remarkable achievement and one unlikely to be repeated. 'Failure' would surely be to have exited both cup tournaments early and have done little more than tread water in the league.

No, we didn't achieve promotion but was our success in the cup competitions at least partly attributable to the costly mini-slump in the league? I think it would be fair to say it was. Yes, I agree that for a club of our stature to have not at least reached the play-off final was hugely disappointing but jeez, we endured cruel luck in the Falkirk play-offs. Refereeing blunders, a wonder strike and a goalkeeping blunder were key to our downfall. Of course we can point the finger at the team not being able to see the games out when leading, but over the course of the season there have been numerous occasions when our bottle could not be questioned. In particular I'm referring to the cup games v Hearts and Inverness, two fixtures which have been historically awful for Hibs yet v Hearts we came back from 2-0 down to win the tie and against Inverness we picked ourselves up for a trip north just three days after losing the League Cup final (another game I felt we didn't deserve to lose). In the Scottish Cup semi-final too, we overcame an increasingly weary performance to stand up strong and take control of the penalty shoot-out.

What I'm trying to say, in a long-winded way, is that Hibs deserve more credit than they're getting for what they HAVE achieved rather than getting slated from all sides for what they haven't done. When we lost the play-off to Hamilton many of us sensed the club could be in the lower leagues for quite some time. That's proved to be the case, but for me the difference in the way the club is run from top to bottom is like night and day since that day and hard as it may seem to fans wearied by so many heartbreaks, I think the good far outweighs the bad.

There's been much to enjoy this season and we really do deserve something to show for our efforts. It would be wonderful to think that could come in the form of the Scottish Cup, but even it doesn't I'll be back for more next season.[/QUOTE

A balanced and utterly sensible post. We can lose perspective when we are bitterly disappointed after high expectations. :top marks

[Carheenlea]

Failure is a club of Hibernian's standing in what is not a particularly high quality Scottush game playing a third season in the lower leagues.
When we start to try and paint a brighter picture of it all not bring too bad as a result of some terrific cup runs, (possibly culminating with the best run of all next Saturday) then there is a real danger of starting to think like a championship club and ultimately accepting our status as one. We must never accept being in this league.

[ekhibee]

Failure is a club of Hibernian's standing in what is not a particularly high quality Scottush game playing a third season in the lower leagues.
When we start to try and paint a brighter picture of it all not bring too bad as a result of some terrific cup runs, (possibly culminating with the best run of all next Saturday) then there is a real danger of starting to think like a championship club and ultimately accepting our status as one. We must never accept being in this league.
Couldn't agree more. :top marks

[Sammy7nil]

Failure is a club of Hibernian's standing in what is not a particularly high quality Scottush game playing a third season in the lower leagues.
When we start to try and paint a brighter picture of it all not bring too bad as a result of some terrific cup runs, (possibly culminating with the best run of all next Saturday) then there is a real danger of starting to think like a championship club and ultimately accepting our status as one. We must never accept being in this league.

:agree::top marks

[blackpoolhibs]

I think there are different levels of failure, beating some good premiership sides to reach the final of the league cup then losing to Ross County in my opinion is failure. I think most of us went into that game thinking we had a great chance to win, we were even favourites with the bookies.

Losing the game after beating those teams feels like a kick in the baws, but on the way we beat and played very well against Aberdeen Dundee Utd and St Johnstone, good results and great days but ultimately we failed when it really mattered when the silverware was being handed out.

The league can only be a failure, not to finish at least 2nd is a failure, and not to reach the play off games against Kilmarnock another failure.

We've had some good performances and some great results, but we are still in the Championship.

[Hibernian Verse]

Failure is not reaching the objectives set at the start of the season.

Success and failure in Scottish football is completely relative to each individual club.

We failed to reach our objectives.

[Hermit Crab]

What constitutes failure? Over the last two seasons - Alan Stubbs.

[Marco G]

Failure is a club of Hibernian's standing in what is not a particularly high quality Scottush game playing a third season in the lower leagues.
When we start to try and paint a brighter picture of it all not bring too bad as a result of some terrific cup runs, (possibly culminating with the best run of all next Saturday) then there is a real danger of starting to think like a championship club and ultimately accepting our status as one. We must never accept being in this league. Whatever the quality of the Scottish game is now, the problem for us is that there is not a hell of a difference between the standard of football between the lower level of the Premier and most of the Championship teams, especially over one match. Anyone who saw games in both leagues will know that losing to Alloa could have happened to most Premier teams on their grotty pitch. So we are thinking like a Premier team but that still does not guarantee anything. Next week we do the business, ditto next season, we are Hibs and our history is what matters.

[Alfred E Newman]

23 posts and nobody has said PETRIE!!

[broondog]

Hibs

We define and constitute failure

Genuinely believe we are the unluckiest team in the world

Combine that with a string of incompetent managers like Stubbs and you get...

Failure

[Hermit Crab]

Hibs

We define and constitute failure

Genuinely believe we are the unluckiest team in the world

Combine that with a string of incompetent managers like Subbs and you get...

Failure


Even unlucky teams can defend high balls into the box...

[matty_f]

**** sake.


Good OP ruined by some utter over the top bollocks.

[northstandhibby]

Yet this team this season on paper should have definitely secured at least second place. I think if we had this squad of players playing in this season's premiership against the likes of Kilmarnock would have been easily safe from being relegated or second bottom. We beat a number of them quite cosily in the cups.

Maybe what is needed is a team of grafters because that's what Falkirk have. If Stubbsy is still the manager next year which a big if i'm certain he must know now the calibre of player needed to get the club back where it most certainly should and must be which is the top league.

GGTTH

[Carheenlea]

**** sake.


Good OP ruined by some utter over the top bollocks.

Like what? A lot of fans have high, but not unreasonable expectations for our club, and will continue to remind everyone at Hibs of what these expectations are.

[Hermit Crab]

Like what? A lot of fans have high, but not unreasonable expectations for our club, and will continue to remind everyone at Hibs of what these expectations are.


:agree:. My expectations are not high for 380 sovs a season.

[matty_f]

Like what? A lot of fans have high, but not unreasonable expectations for our club, and will continue to remind everyone at Hibs of what these expectations are.

Like saying Hibs epitomise failure. We don't, unless you only look at the things we failed at. But ****ing newsflash, every club fails at something.

[broondog]

23 posts and nobody has said PETRIE!!

this is 100% the fault of alan stubbs and those fans that backed him

[Sammy7nil]

this is 100% the fault of alan stubbs and those fans that backed him

Yip it is always the fans fault :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Carheenlea]

Like saying Hibs epitomise failure. We don't, unless you only look at the things we failed at. But ****ing newsflash, every club fails at something.

I wouldn't go as far as stating that, but I can understand why some would. Would you not agree we have failed a lot in recent years for a club of our standing? It's when we meekly accept it through time, then what once would be deemed failure would simply be deemed the norm.

[matty_f]

I wouldn't go as far as stating that, but I can understand why some would. Would you not agree we have failed a lot in recent years for a club of our standing? It's when we meekly accept it through time, then what once would be deemed failure would simply be deemed the norm.

We've failed on a couple of significant points over the last few years.

Reaching the 2012 cup final was an achievement. The final itself was a huge failure. Getting into Europe was a success, our results once there were terrible.

Reaching the 2013 cup final was an achievement, we played Celtc and were massive underdogs. Not winning that game was in line with most people's expectations. Defeat obviously wasn't a success, but it shouldn't be considered an outright failure either.

Relegation was a massive failure.

Losing in the playoffs last year was hard to take and you could look at it as failure, but we were very close and The Rangers edged a very close tie. That happens in sport.

We are like every club. We have lows and we have highs. Right now we're on the back of a significant and very hurtful low. A devastating disappointment, but on the same weekend (and I'm not comparing us, just using an example) Man United didn't reach the Champions League, Tottenham didn't finish above Arsenal, Real Madrid didn't win the league, Aberdeen didn't get the points total they wanted, the Yams didn't sign off with a home win, Motherwell shipped seven to Celtc.

In midweek Newcastle didn't avoid relegation, Norwich didn't manage it either. Hundreds, if not thousands, of teams didn't win the league that they compete in.

Hundreds, if not thousands of clubs didn't make it to one cup
Final, even fewer made it to two.

Hearts didn't get a win against us, The Rangers failed to win at Easter Road, Aberdeen failed to keep their winning run going when they played us.

Football is littered with failures. That's how sport works.

We have had successes and highs along the way. Nobody is accepting that it's ok to be where we are, or dismissing the failure as insignificant, but saying we epitomise failure etc is kicking the erse out the argument and then some.

We have failed in some big games and succeeded in others. We've at least been there to win and lose them though.

Some clubs' failure is so great that they don't even get near those games.

[matty_f]

this is 100% the fault of alan stubbs and those fans that backed him

Bollocks. Load. A. Of. What.

Re-arrange to find out what others might think of your post.

[stantonhibby]

We've failed on a couple of significant points over the last few years.

Reaching the 2012 cup final was an achievement. The final itself was a huge failure. Getting into Europe was a success, our results once there were terrible.

Reaching the 2013 cup final was an achievement, we played Celtc and were massive underdogs. Not winning that game was in line with most people's expectations. Defeat obviously wasn't a success, but it shouldn't be considered an outright failure either.

Relegation was a massive failure.

Losing in the playoffs last year was hard to take and you could look at it as failure, but we were very close and The Rangers edged a very close tie. That happens in sport.

We are like every club. We have lows and we have highs. Right now we're on the back of a significant and very hurtful low. A devastating disappointment, but on the same weekend (and I'm not comparing us, just using an example) Man United didn't reach the Champions League, Tottenham didn't finish above Arsenal, Real Madrid didn't win the league, Aberdeen didn't get the points total they wanted, the Yams didn't sign off with a home win, Motherwell shipped seven to Celtc.

In midweek Newcastle didn't avoid relegation, Norwich didn't manage it either. Hundreds, if not thousands, of teams didn't win the league that they compete in.

Hundreds, if not thousands of clubs didn't make it to one cup
Final, even fewer made it to two.

Hearts didn't get a win against us, The Rangers failed to win at Easter Road, Aberdeen failed to keep their winning run going when they played us.

Football is littered with failures. That's how sport works.

We have had successes and highs along the way. Nobody is accepting that it's ok to be where we are, or dismissing the failure as insignificant, but saying we epitomise failure etc is kicking the erse out the argument and then some.

We have failed in some big games and succeeded in others. We've at least been there to win and lose them though.

Some clubs' failure is so great that they don't even get near those games.

Good post

[Septimus]

Bollocks. Load. A. Of. What.

Re-arrange to find out what others might think of your post.

I,m not very good at word games but I think I get your point and agree completely.