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StevieT
11-05-2016, 11:53 AM
Let me start off by owning up to being a referee.

I have no problem with people letting the match officials that they have made mistakes. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our interpretation of the laws of the game. Last night wash a shocking performance by all three match officials. The guy on the East side didn't seem to know how to orwhen to signal. He missed so many decisions it was unreal. The mistakes by the referee have been well documented on this site.

My gripe is with people giving abuse at officials when they are clearly in the wrong.

Last night there was a guy sitting a few rows behind me who gave the East side assistand dogs abuse in the first half. Each time Falkirk had a goal kick, Lee Miller would stand beyond the Hibs back four and then make a run in front of the centre backs to attack the ball. Each time this guy shouted that he was offside and told the assistant in no uncertain terms how useless he was for not being able to see this. This was followed by the guy in fron tof him who was shouting that if the assistant got it wrong again he would 'cave his f'ing head in'.

I then let them know that they were making fools of themselves by shouting this as you cannot be offside from a goal kick. Needless to say that went down like a lead balloon (as did my comment that Grey had played them onside for the first goal). Cue the question 'How the F can you see from here?'...the same way as you think you can see from here that he was offside.

If you are going to give officials abuse then at least brush up on the laws of the game.

Oh, and yes, the match officials were rank rotten last night.

Kato
11-05-2016, 11:55 AM
If you are going to give officials abuse then at least brush up on the laws of the game.


I will do if the Refs do so first.

greenlex
11-05-2016, 11:57 AM
I played the game till early 80s to Junior level for a bit. I've watched it since. Last night was genuinely the first time I had known you couldn't be offside for a goal kick. I am sure in fact I know that there is is a huge chunk of fans in the same boat if they would admit it. Fans givingofficials abuse is part of the game mate.

JimBHibees
11-05-2016, 12:07 PM
Let me start off by owning up to being a referee.

I have no problem with people letting the match officials that they have made mistakes. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our interpretation of the laws of the game. Last night wash a shocking performance by all three match officials. The guy on the East side didn't seem to know how to orwhen to signal. He missed so many decisions it was unreal. The mistakes by the referee have been well documented on this site.

My gripe is with people giving abuse at officials when they are clearly in the wrong.

Last night there was a guy sitting a few rows behind me who gave the East side assistand dogs abuse in the first half. Each time Falkirk had a goal kick, Lee Miller would stand beyond the Hibs back four and then make a run in front of the centre backs to attack the ball. Each time this guy shouted that he was offside and told the assistant in no uncertain terms how useless he was for not being able to see this. This was followed by the guy in fron tof him who was shouting that if the assistant got it wrong again he would 'cave his f'ing head in'.

I then let them know that they were making fools of themselves by shouting this as you cannot be offside from a goal kick. Needless to say that went down like a lead balloon (as did my comment that Grey had played them onside for the first goal). Cue the question 'How the F can you see from here?'...the same way as you think you can see from here that he was offside.

If you are going to give officials abuse then at least brush up on the laws of the game.

Oh, and yes, the match officials were rank rotten last night.

Totally agree about the ignorance of some about the laws. My sons and I were laughing at a guy behind us who was mouthing off about offside when it was a goal kick. Quite funny.

givescotlandfreedom
11-05-2016, 12:07 PM
There would maybe be a better relationship between fans and officials if they explained their decisions sometimes instead of hiding in silence which makes them appear arrogant and aloof to supporters. Someone mentioned the whistle blower website which gave them a chance to do so which lasted a few weeks before being totally abandoned. They don't do much to help themselves.

Smartie
11-05-2016, 12:08 PM
It's an interesting point. I played amateur for 15 years and have watched hundreds of matches and there are still rules that catch me by surprise.

The throw in one was a good one last night. Logan will have been a bit rattled after his mistake and I think he might have been caught on the hop a bit with their long throw. Counter-intuitive as it is, Logan would be best to let the ball go in if nobody's touched it and he could get himself into a world of trouble by touching it on the way, fumbling it or letting it bounce off the frame of the goal to another player. Easy to criticise the keeper but it was a fairly unique situation regarding the rules and I think Logan will have been caught out a bit where instinct tells you to do one thing but you kind of know to do something else?

There are obvious and fundamental ones that managers and pundits manage to get wrong regularly though so what chance do most punters have?

How often have we had a debate re whether or not a player was the "last man"? Doesn't matter, was it a clear goalscoring opportunity?

Did he get the ball? Doesn't bloody matter, was there excessive force or recklessness involved?

Was it ball to hand or hand to ball? Doesn't bloody matter, if his hand is in that position then……


etc etc

HibbyScott
11-05-2016, 12:09 PM
Totally agree about the ignorance of some about the laws. My sons and I were laughing at a guy behind us who was mouthing off about offside when it was a goal kick. Quite funny.

Is this a new addition to the rules? I'm in the same boat as Alex previously where I was always under the impression that there is offside from a goal kick! Certainly I've been caught offside from a goal kick plenty of times in FIFA :greengrin

JimBHibees
11-05-2016, 12:10 PM
Let me start off by owning up to being a referee.

I have no problem with people letting the match officials that they have made mistakes. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our interpretation of the laws of the game. Last night wash a shocking performance by all three match officials. The guy on the East side didn't seem to know how to orwhen to signal. He missed so many decisions it was unreal. The mistakes by the referee have been well documented on this site.

My gripe is with people giving abuse at officials when they are clearly in the wrong.

Last night there was a guy sitting a few rows behind me who gave the East side assistand dogs abuse in the first half. Each time Falkirk had a goal kick, Lee Miller would stand beyond the Hibs back four and then make a run in front of the centre backs to attack the ball. Each time this guy shouted that he was offside and told the assistant in no uncertain terms how useless he was for not being able to see this. This was followed by the guy in fron tof him who was shouting that if the assistant got it wrong again he would 'cave his f'ing head in'.

I then let them know that they were making fools of themselves by shouting this as you cannot be offside from a goal kick. Needless to say that went down like a lead balloon (as did my comment that Grey had played them onside for the first goal). Cue the question 'How the F can you see from here?'...the same way as you think you can see from here that he was offside.

If you are going to give officials abuse then at least brush up on the laws of the game.

Oh, and yes, the match officials were rank rotten last night.

What did you make of the discussion from Craigan and Lovell on BT Sport both saying it wasnt a penalty because the Falkirk player wasnt looking at the ball and just put his hand down and happened to catch the ball. Incredible view IMO from 2 ex-professionals IMO. To me it was honestly the single worst decision I have ever seen given the view of the ref.

JimBHibees
11-05-2016, 12:11 PM
There would maybe be a better relationship between fans and officials if they explained their decisions sometimes instead of hiding in silence which makes them appear arrogant and aloof to supporters. Someone mentioned the whistle blower website which gave them a chance to do so which lasted a few weeks before being totally abandoned. They don't do much to help themselves.

Totally agree. Respect is earned not a right.

JimBHibees
11-05-2016, 12:12 PM
It's an interesting point. I played amateur for 15 years and have watched hundreds of matches and there are still rules that catch me by surprise.

The throw in one was a good one last night. Logan will have been a bit rattled after his mistake and I think he might have been caught on the hop a bit with their long throw. Counter-intuitive as it is, Logan would be best to let the ball go in if nobody's touched it and he could get himself into a world of trouble by touching it on the way, fumbling it or letting it bounce off the frame of the goal to another player. Easy to criticise the keeper but it was a fairly unique situation regarding the rules and I think Logan will have been caught out a bit where instinct tells you to do one thing but you kind of know to do something else?

There are obvious and fundamental ones that managers and pundits manage to get wrong regularly though so what chance do most punters have?

How often have we had a debate re whether or not a player was the "last man"? Doesn't matter, was it a clear goalscoring opportunity?

Did he get the ball? Doesn't bloody matter, was there excessive force or recklessness involved?

Was it ball to hand or hand to ball? Doesn't bloody matter, if his hand is in that position then……


etc etc

The problem in letting in bounce would of course be if it then hit the bar or post and it bounced out in front of the goal.

nellio
11-05-2016, 12:21 PM
Fella behind me taking about offside. I mentioned that you can't be offside from a goal kick.

He's a nice bloke though and wasn't shouting at the ref or anything but just thought I should mention it.

Spike Mandela
11-05-2016, 12:21 PM
Refs are only human.

We all know humans who are bigots.

We all know humans who think they are never wrong.

We all know humans who are incompetent at their job.

We all know humans who lie.

We all know humans who cheat.

allant1981
11-05-2016, 12:28 PM
Is this a new addition to the rules? I'm in the same boat as Alex previously where I was always under the impression that there is offside from a goal kick! Certainly I've been caught offside from a goal kick plenty of times in FIFA :greengrin

Nope not a new rule, not sure how long its been a rule but a few years anyway

emerald green
11-05-2016, 12:30 PM
Let me start off by owning up to being a referee.

I have no problem with people letting the match officials that they have made mistakes. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our interpretation of the laws of the game. Last night wash a shocking performance by all three match officials. The guy on the East side didn't seem to know how to orwhen to signal. He missed so many decisions it was unreal. The mistakes by the referee have been well documented on this site.

My gripe is with people giving abuse at officials when they are clearly in the wrong.

Many football fans are not experts in the laws of the game, and neither do they have to be. That's the officials' job. To get things right.

Last night was so bad it could result in Hibs spending a third season in the Championship. No wonder fans have a go at them, even when they are in the wrong sometimes.

Geo_1875
11-05-2016, 01:01 PM
Can any of the referees tell me if it's now a rule that players receive treatment on the field without any time added on for stoppages? Recently noticed that refs regularly add 3 or 4 minutes when there has been 6 subs and a few goals while often 5 or 6 minutes have been "wasted" with on-field treatment.

KeithTheHibby
11-05-2016, 01:14 PM
There would maybe be a better relationship between fans and officials if they explained their decisions sometimes instead of hiding in silence which makes them appear arrogant and aloof to supporters. Someone mentioned the whistle blower website which gave them a chance to do so which lasted a few weeks before being totally abandoned. They don't do much to help themselves.

A good point however the refs are governed by the SFA so that is where the problem lies.

KeithTheHibby
11-05-2016, 01:15 PM
I also thought that during televised games they had to have signal injury time with the board?

HibsNutter
11-05-2016, 01:18 PM
Don't care, get on their back over decisions at home and they'll give us borderline calls. It's human nature.

ancient hibee
11-05-2016, 02:19 PM
Why do linesmen always look at the referee to see which way they should give a throw in?

JimBHibees
11-05-2016, 02:21 PM
Why do linesmen always look at the referee to see which way they should give a throw in?

Because the refs tell them to do so, they dont want one pointing one way and one the other, it would make them look less than competent if that were indeed possible. :greengrin

ancient hibee
11-05-2016, 02:25 PM
Because the refs tell them to do so, they dont want one pointing one way and one the other, it would make them look less than competent if that were indeed possible. :greengrin

In the old days:greengrina referee wouldn't have attempted to give the throw in he'd have left it to the linesman.Tubby Wharton seldom left the centre circle.

21.05.2016
11-05-2016, 02:40 PM
There would maybe be a better relationship between fans and officials if they explained their decisions sometimes instead of hiding in silence which makes them appear arrogant and aloof to supporters. Someone mentioned the whistle blower website which gave them a chance to do so which lasted a few weeks before being totally abandoned. They don't do much to help themselves.

I've said for a while now that I think referees and officials need to be accountable for their actions especially big game changing decisions. They make huge decisions which determine the way of the game then get to sneak off. I would love to hear what Muirs explanation for not giving the pen yesterday. He had a clear as day view, looking straight at it.

paddy1875
11-05-2016, 02:56 PM
It's an interesting point. I played amateur for 15 years and have watched hundreds of matches and there are still rules that catch me by surprise. The throw in one was a good one last night. Logan will have been a bit rattled after his mistake and I think he might have been caught on the hop a bit with their long throw. Counter-intuitive as it is, Logan would be best to let the ball go in if nobody's touched it and he could get himself into a world of trouble by touching it on the way, fumbling it or letting it bounce off the frame of the goal to another player. Easy to criticise the keeper but it was a fairly unique situation regarding the rules and I think Logan will have been caught out a bit where instinct tells you to do one thing but you kind of know to do something else? There are obvious and fundamental ones that managers and pundits manage to get wrong regularly though so what chance do most punters have? How often have we had a debate re whether or not a player was the "last man"? Doesn't matter, was it a clear goalscoring opportunity? Did he get the ball? Doesn't bloody matter, was there excessive force or recklessness involved? Was it ball to hand or hand to ball? Doesn't bloody matter, if his hand is in that position then…… etc etc

I reckon last night if the long throw went in the net without touching anyone it would've been seen as a legitimate goal. That's how gash the referee was last night

Ryan91
11-05-2016, 03:03 PM
I reckon last night if the long throw went in the net without touching anyone it would've been seen as a legitimate goal. That's how gash the referee was last night

The ref was pretty damn awful last night, but I think that even he isn't enough of a dimwit that he would have given a goal direct from the throw if it had gone in.

Out of interest, I have a question for those members of this forum who are refs, if a ball ends up in the net direct from a throw with no other player touching it, what happens?

Kato
11-05-2016, 03:10 PM
The ref was pretty damn awful last night, but I think that even he isn't enough of a dimwit that he would have given a goal direct from the throw if it had gone in.

Out of interest, I have a question for those members of this forum who are refs, if a ball ends up in the net direct from a throw with no other player touching it, what happens?

Goal kick.

O'Rourke3
11-05-2016, 03:13 PM
I also thought that during televised games they had to have signal injury time with the board?

They did last night and also in both games against Raith


The ref was pretty damn awful last night, but I think that even he isn't enough of a dimwit that he would have given a goal direct from the throw if it had gone in.

Out of interest, I have a question for those members of this forum who are refs, if a ball ends up in the net direct from a throw with no other player touching it, what happens?

Bye Kick (and not a ref).

One for the refs. Can't be offside from a bye kick so he's still beyond last defender from phase one and gets played through by an attacking header. Presumably offside then because of the second touch from a team mate but would be deemed onside if a defender heads it badly backwards?

Just Jimmy
11-05-2016, 03:14 PM
The ref was pretty damn awful last night, but I think that even he isn't enough of a dimwit that he would have given a goal direct from the throw if it had gone in.

Out of interest, I have a question for those members of this forum who are refs, if a ball ends up in the net direct from a throw with no other player touching it, what happens?
Goal kick.


Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Victor Park
11-05-2016, 03:14 PM
Let me start off by owning up to being a referee.

I have no problem with people letting the match officials that they have made mistakes. We are all entitled to our opinions and to our interpretation of the laws of the game. Last night wash a shocking performance by all three match officials. The guy on the East side didn't seem to know how to orwhen to signal. He missed so many decisions it was unreal. The mistakes by the referee have been well documented on this site.

My gripe is with people giving abuse at officials when they are clearly in the wrong.

Last night there was a guy sitting a few rows behind me who gave the East side assistand dogs abuse in the first half. Each time Falkirk had a goal kick, Lee Miller would stand beyond the Hibs back four and then make a run in front of the centre backs to attack the ball. Each time this guy shouted that he was offside and told the assistant in no uncertain terms how useless he was for not being able to see this. This was followed by the guy in fron tof him who was shouting that if the assistant got it wrong again he would 'cave his f'ing head in'.

I then let them know that they were making fools of themselves by shouting this as you cannot be offside from a goal kick. Needless to say that went down like a lead balloon (as did my comment that Grey had played them onside for the first goal). Cue the question 'How the F can you see from here?'...the same way as you think you can see from here that he was offside.

If you are going to give officials abuse then at least brush up on the laws of the game.

Oh, and yes, the match officials were rank rotten last night.

I think you have a very good point. Save the abuse for when they actually have made a bad decision.

Having said all that my Dad goes to the football for two reasons. One to hopefully see Hibs win, and two to have a good shout at the ref. Ive had many an argument with him about his green tinted spectacles clouding his judgement on refereeing decisions.

Last night its safe to say I was joining in with him though.

hibs69
11-05-2016, 03:18 PM
Could've sworn Leigh was offside at every opposition goal kick......, and waved offside for it!

I didn't know the rule and it explains a lot. Many players are definitely straying offside when they're taken.

JC94
11-05-2016, 03:26 PM
Can any of the referees tell me if it's now a rule that players receive treatment on the field without any time added on for stoppages? Recently noticed that refs regularly add 3 or 4 minutes when there has been 6 subs and a few goals while often 5 or 6 minutes have been "wasted" with on-field treatment.

30 Seconds should be added on for every sub made and usually it should be the same amount added on to cover the celebrations of each goal. For on-field treatment the ref/4th official should be keeping track of how long the physio has been on the pitch untill he leaves and that time should also be added on to the 30 seconds per sub and 30 seconds per goal/celebration

RoYO!
11-05-2016, 04:04 PM
Is it not up to fans to question every decision given against. Ramping up the pressure on the ref. Hoping that will sway it if he has to call a 50/50 pen decision for example?

Get in their heads. All part of the game.

BoomtownHibeys
11-05-2016, 04:17 PM
What chance have we (as fans) got if the players don't know the rules?? Remember against Raith, their players all going mental and wanted a free kick or something for Logan's goal kick staying inside the box??

wookie70
11-05-2016, 05:12 PM
Can't score or be offside from a throw in and can't be offside from a goal kick or corner. Pretty sure they were the rules when I played primary football 40 years ago. Same as the ball has to leave the box at a goal kick to be in play. Loads of fans are clueless about these rules judging by the last two games.

I'm sure there was an English goalie who let a shy in knowing it was no goalva wee while back

Smartie
11-05-2016, 05:16 PM
Can't score or be offside from a throw in and can't be offside from a goal kick or corner. Pretty sure they were the rules when I played primary football 40 years ago. Same as the ball has to leave the box at a goal kick to be in play. Loads of fans are clueless about these rules judging by the last two games.

I'm sure there was an English goalie who let a shy in knowing it was no goalva wee while back

I don't remember that but I do remember a throw skiffing Peter Enkelman's boot on it's way in a few years ago, therefore it was a goal.

hibs69
11-05-2016, 05:17 PM
Can't score or be offside from a throw in and can't be offside from a goal kick or corner. Pretty sure they were the rules when I played primary football 40 years ago. Same as the ball has to leave the box at a goal kick to be in play. Loads of fans are clueless about these rules judging by the last two games.

I'm sure there was an English goalie who let a shy in knowing it was no goalva wee while back

If the ball goes forward from a corner, it's a goal kick, wookie! :)

lapsedhibee
11-05-2016, 05:22 PM
In the old days:greengrina referee wouldn't have attempted to give the throw in he'd have left it to the linesman.Tubby Wharton seldom left the centre circle.
Tubby by nature but Tiny by name.


If the ball goes forward from a corner, it's a goal kick
:tsk tsk:

hibs69
11-05-2016, 05:39 PM
Haha! Was that wrong? Retaken?

HibsNutter
11-05-2016, 05:46 PM
Is it not up to fans to question every decision given against. Ramping up the pressure on the ref. Hoping that will sway it if he has to call a 50/50 pen decision for example?

Get in their heads. All part of the game.

Exactly. Similar to when we were giving Wotherspoon pelters at the semi final, don't have any problem with him but we know he buckles under pressure so we ramped the heat up. Easter Road should be an intimidating place for opposing players and officials, it's why big teams always seem to get dodgy decisions at home.

Thecat23
11-05-2016, 05:53 PM
I think some ref's in Scotland as well as the rest of the U.K. Are cheats and either have serious money on games or just don't want certain teams to do well.

Last night only confirmed this as the ref DID see it but still refused to give it.. WHY??

lapsedhibee
11-05-2016, 05:57 PM
Haha! Was that wrong? Retaken?

On full size pitches a corner can be played forward a yard or so without it being a goal kick.

SquashedFrogg
11-05-2016, 06:02 PM
I also thought that during televised games they had to have signal injury time with the board?

Must admit I found that strange. I'm sure they announced injury time on Sat against Raith?

On the subject of refs. My old man was a ref and growing up going to matches, he used take me through decisions as they happened so I could see reason. I've been brought up to respect referees. As a kid I witnessed some horrendous threats made to him so they have my sympathy.

However, even he would have been on his feet last night, outraged at some of the decisions. Don't forget, these people get paid a small fortune to officiate our game. They HAVE to be accountable. No question.

The handball decision was a sham. He clearly saw it yet ignored it. If he didn't see it (maybe his excuse?) then he shouldn't be a referee.

Scandal.

Conj
11-05-2016, 06:12 PM
There was a guy behind me last night screaming at Logan to pick up a throw in from McGregor and couldn't/wouldn't believe me when I said a GK can't handle a throw in from his own team just the same as a passback.

McD
11-05-2016, 06:29 PM
It's an interesting point. I played amateur for 15 years and have watched hundreds of matches and there are still rules that catch me by surprise.

The throw in one was a good one last night. Logan will have been a bit rattled after his mistake and I think he might have been caught on the hop a bit with their long throw. Counter-intuitive as it is, Logan would be best to let the ball go in if nobody's touched it and he could get himself into a world of trouble by touching it on the way, fumbling it or letting it bounce off the frame of the goal to another player. Easy to criticise the keeper but it was a fairly unique situation regarding the rules and I think Logan will have been caught out a bit where instinct tells you to do one thing but you kind of know to do something else?

There are obvious and fundamental ones that managers and pundits manage to get wrong regularly though so what chance do most punters have?

How often have we had a debate re whether or not a player was the "last man"? Doesn't matter, was it a clear goalscoring opportunity?

Did he get the ball? Doesn't bloody matter, was there excessive force or recklessness involved?

Was it ball to hand or hand to ball? Doesn't bloody matter, if his hand is in that position then……


etc etc


This! Really sick of hearing pundits and ex-pros making excuses for the current players. How many times did we hear Lovell and McCall going on about deliberate? As far as I know (any refs please correct me if I'm wrong :greengrin), there's no rule that mentions deliberate or intentional. As you've said, last man is another one. Chris Sutton was going spare on commentary, kept going back to the replays and asking how the ref couldn't see the handball.

McD
11-05-2016, 06:31 PM
Can't score or be offside from a throw in and can't be offside from a goal kick or corner. Pretty sure they were the rules when I played primary football 40 years ago. Same as the ball has to leave the box at a goal kick to be in play. Loads of fans are clueless about these rules judging by the last two games.

I'm sure there was an English goalie who let a shy in knowing it was no goalva wee while back


I think there's quite a few players and some refs who don't know that either, I've seen sseveral times where the goal kick has been collected by an outfield player before clearing the box, and nothing said.

StevieT
11-05-2016, 07:53 PM
They did last night and also in both games against Raith



Bye Kick (and not a ref).

One for the refs. Can't be offside from a bye kick so he's still beyond last defender from phase one and gets played through by an attacking header. Presumably offside then because of the second touch from a team mate but would be deemed onside if a defender heads it badly backwards?

If the player is in an offside position when the ball is flicked on by a team mate (assuming he is the player the ball is flicked on to) then he is offside. If, however, a defender heads the ball badly backwards then he is onside.

overdrive
11-05-2016, 07:54 PM
This! Really sick of hearing pundits and ex-pros making excuses for the current players. How many times did we hear Lovell and McCall going on about deliberate? As far as I know (any refs please correct me if I'm wrong :greengrin), there's no rule that mentions deliberate or intentional. As you've said, last man is another one. Chris Sutton was going spare on commentary, kept going back to the replays and asking how the ref couldn't see the handball.

Deliberate does come into a handball situation (not sure on the specific wording). As I understand it...

1. Is the handball deliberate?
No: no foul at all
Yes: foul, go to Q2

2. Does the handball stop a "promising attack"?
No: free-kick given (or penalty)
Yes: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a yellow card, go to Q3

3. Does the handball prevent a "clear and obvious" goalscoring opportunity?
No: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a yellow card
Yes: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a red card.

Several of the papers covered this in last few weeks following the Gavin Gunning incident. He wasn't punished (by the referee) other than a free kick given against him despite deliberately picking the ball up and walking off the pitch with it.

Last night I think he deliberately handled the ball and stopped a promising attack, hence it should have been a penalty and a booking. The referee obviously must not have considered it to be deliberate hence no foul.

Happy to be corrected by any referees.

Smartie
11-05-2016, 08:03 PM
Deliberate does come into a handball situation (not sure on the specific wording). As I understand it...

1. Is the handball deliberate?
No: no foul at all
Yes: foul, go to Q2

2. Does the handball stop a "promising attack"?
No: free-kick given (or penalty)
Yes: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a yellow card, go to Q3

3. Does the handball prevent a "clear and obvious" goalscoring opportunity?
No: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a yellow card
Yes: free-kick given (or penalty) along with a red card.

Several of the papers covered this in last few weeks following the Gavin Gunning incident. He wasn't punished (by the referee) other than a free kick given against him despite deliberately picking the ball up and walking off the pitch with it.

Last night I think he deliberately handled the ball and stopped a promising attack, hence it should have been a penalty and a booking. The referee obviously must not have considered it to be deliberate hence no foul.

Happy to be corrected by any referees.

I'd disagree with this and think you need a slightly more elaborate formula.

If the answer to 1 is "no" then you need to ask the question "is the hand in a natural position".

If a player has his hands flailing above his head and the ball hits a hand then it is a penalty/ free-kick, even if the player doesn't deliberately handle the ball.

I may be wrong but I consider this whole "deliberate" business to be absolute nonsense too. You'd need the thought police from 1984 to determine what players are thinking. You judge them by their actions only, you cannot determine intent imo.

As I say, I may be wrong but I consider Lovell, Craigan and McDonough's protestations that it wasn't deliberate as utter guff. His hand hit the ball, it shouldn't have been there and regardless of whether he wanted to touch the ball or not, it should have been a penalty. That's before you get into what the scooping/ flicking of the ball was all about.

I remember being on the wrong end of a similar(ish) decision when Ulrik Laursen had the ball blasted against his hand as he was getting up off the ground against Celtic. He couldn't have got up off the ground without his hand being there so that shouldn't have been a penalty (under the current rules, not so sure what the rules were back then). All I know was that it was a scandalous decision.

It would be good to hear from a referee on this.

overdrive
11-05-2016, 08:11 PM
I'd disagree with this and think you need a slightly more elaborate formula.

If the answer to 1 is "no" then you need to ask the question "is the hand in a natural position".

If a player has his hands flailing above his head and the ball hits a hand then it is a penalty/ free-kick, even if the player doesn't deliberately handle the ball.

I may be wrong but I consider this whole "deliberate" business to be absolute nonsense too. You'd need the thought police from 1984 to determine what players are thinking. You judge them by their actions only, you cannot determine intent imo.

As I say, I may be wrong but I consider Lovell, Craigan and McDonough's protestations that it wasn't deliberate as utter guff. His hand hit the ball, it shouldn't have been there and regardless of whether he wanted to touch the ball or not, it should have been a penalty. That's before you get into what the scooping/ flicking of the ball was all about.

I remember being on the wrong end of a similar(ish) decision when Ulrik Laursen had the ball blasted against his hand as he was getting up off the ground against Celtic. He couldn't have got up off the ground without his hand being there so that shouldn't have been a penalty (under the current rules, not so sure what the rules were back then). All I know was that it was a scandalous decision.

It would be good to hear from a referee on this.

The question would be whether the player deliberately put his hand in an unnatural position, though surely an unnatural position would by definition be out there deliberately, hence deliberate handball.

A couple of links to articles that I've read on the topic:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/dundee-united/dundee-united-s-gavin-gunning-picks-up-ball-and-goes-home-1-4096753

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284201/GRAHAM-POLL--The-Official-Line-The-new-handball-rule-explained-Newcastle-got-lucky-Fox-penalty.html

Newcastlehibby
11-05-2016, 08:39 PM
The question would be whether the player deliberately put his hand in an unnatural position, though surely an unnatural position would by definition be out there deliberately, hence deliberate handball.

A couple of links to articles that I've read on the topic:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/dundee-united/dundee-united-s-gavin-gunning-picks-up-ball-and-goes-home-1-4096753

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2284201/GRAHAM-POLL--The-Official-Line-The-new-handball-rule-explained-Newcastle-got-lucky-Fox-penalty.html

From the rules of the game from the FIFA website, a penslty should be awarded when a player, not the goalie, 'deliberately' handles the ball.

erin go bragh
11-05-2016, 09:02 PM
Abuse ? That ref was lucky I was up in the FF upper 😡


GGTTH

Forza Fred
11-05-2016, 09:15 PM
Nope not a new rule, not sure how long its been a rule but a few years anyway

Been that way since I played and I'm 64

Same as you can't be offside from a corner or throw in.

Not fully knowing the rules is common....I once asked a former Socceroo captain a question on the rules, and even he got it wrong.

Mind you, I think most people probably would.

The old one about a defender taking a direct free kick just outside his box decides to play it back to his own goalie, but the goalie is not looking and the ball rolls into his net without him having got anywhere near the ball.

Most people automatically said 'own goal' but the correct decision is a corner.

Go figure, but true.

StevieT
11-05-2016, 09:29 PM
Been that way since I played and I'm 64

Same as you can't be offside from a corner or throw in.

Not fully knowing the rules is common....I once asked a former Socceroo captain a question on the rules, and even he got it wrong.

Mind you, I think most people probably would.

The old one about a defender taking a direct free kick just outside his box decides to play it back to his own goalie, but the goalie is not looking and the ball rolls into his net without him having got anywhere near the ball.

Most people automatically said 'own goal' but the correct decision is a corner.

Go figure, but true.

I think you meant to say indirect free kick. You can't score from an indirect free kick, even in to your own goals. If the ball goes directly in to your own goal from an indirect free kick then a corner is awarded (the same rule applies if you throw the ball back to your goalkeeper from a throw in and it goes directly in to the goals).

hibby6270
11-05-2016, 10:37 PM
One for the refs. Can't be offside from a bye kick so he's still beyond last defender from phase one and gets played through by an attacking header. Presumably offside then because of the second touch from a team mate but would be deemed onside if a defender heads it badly backwards?

Not a ref but you're right the player becomes offside after the flick on because it's the second phase of play. If ball goes direct to him from bye kick or of a defender, player is onside.

I'll be honest wasn't aware of the "not offside from a bye kick" rule until a few seasons ago. Hearts scored a goal against us at ER that went that way. Can't remember the exact game though. Their player clearly "offside" when kick was taken but because he had a head start on defender, outran them and scored.

Doesn't happen often but Jamie Vardy scored a goal like that this season as well.

Think the confusing thing is that players are offside from a direct free kick. The difference being of course that a bye kick (ball out of play) and free kick (foul) are awarded for different reasons.

wookie70
11-05-2016, 11:19 PM
If the ball goes forward from a corner, it's a goal kick, wookie! :) Yep that is why you can't be offside. The ball can technically go forward from a corner but I think the quadrant is considered to all be on the bye line.

Forza Fred
12-05-2016, 01:42 AM
I think you meant to say indirect free kick. You can't score from an indirect free kick, even in to your own goals. If the ball goes directly in to your own goal from an indirect free kick then a corner is awarded (the same rule applies if you throw the ball back to your goalkeeper from a throw in and it goes directly in to the goals).

Nope.

I meant direct free kick.

Forza Fred
12-05-2016, 04:22 AM
From the rules of the game from the FIFA website, a penslty should be awarded when a player, not the goalie, 'deliberately' handles the ball.


Nope.

I meant direct free kick.

Just to elaborate...I pushed the send button too quickly...FIFA Laws of the Game (13) page 41, clearly spells it out that if a direct free kick is played directly into your own goals it is a corner, not an own goal.

I reckon close to50 percent of punters at least don't know that and think it would be an o.g.

JimBHibees
12-05-2016, 06:25 AM
I'd disagree with this and think you need a slightly more elaborate formula.

If the answer to 1 is "no" then you need to ask the question "is the hand in a natural position".

If a player has his hands flailing above his head and the ball hits a hand then it is a penalty/ free-kick, even if the player doesn't deliberately handle the ball.

I may be wrong but I consider this whole "deliberate" business to be absolute nonsense too. You'd need the thought police from 1984 to determine what players are thinking. You judge them by their actions only, you cannot determine intent imo.

As I say, I may be wrong but I consider Lovell, Craigan and McDonough's protestations that it wasn't deliberate as utter guff. His hand hit the ball, it shouldn't have been there and regardless of whether he wanted to touch the ball or not, it should have been a penalty. That's before you get into what the scooping/ flicking of the ball was all about.

I remember being on the wrong end of a similar(ish) decision when Ulrik Laursen had the ball blasted against his hand as he was getting up off the ground against Celtic. He couldn't have got up off the ground without his hand being there so that shouldn't have been a penalty (under the current rules, not so sure what the rules were back then). All I know was that it was a scandalous decision.

It would be good to hear from a referee on this.

The Laursen one was against Rangers and an appalling decision though the fact the ref was McCurry should be taken into account another incompetent not a cheat :rolleyes: ref.

Onion
12-05-2016, 03:31 PM
Is it not up to fans to question every decision given against. Ramping up the pressure on the ref. Hoping that will sway it if he has to call a 50/50 pen decision for example?

Get in their heads. All part of the game.

Of course it is. It's our right and our duty :greengrin

Watching that Falkirk hammer thrower kicking Henderson off the ball on Tuesday, could you ever see him doing that to a Celtic or Sevco player at CP or Hunbrox ? No chance. Also, the Yams make the PBS a much more intimidating atmosphere for opponents and the officials. Unquestionably has an impact on the result. Sadly, ER just doesn't have the same effect.