Hillsborough Documentary BBC2 9pm

[Scouse Hibee]

First airing tonight on TV following a private showing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Cheers for the info. I'll watch it.

[hibby6270]

First airing tonight on TV following a private showing.

Already got it on 'record'. :aok:

[StevieT]

It's not going to be an easy watch that's for sure.

[poolman]

It's not going to be an easy watch that's for sure.

The last documentary on it was pretty harrowing

[StevieT]

The last documentary on it was pretty harrowing

As is reading any of the books.

[Pretty Boy]

To say I'm looking forward to this is entirely the wrong phrase but I am very interested in how this will be presented now the truth has been formally acknowledged.

[StevieT]

It will be an eye opener for the younger generation as they see how football fans were treated back then. Some say it's bad just now but nothing like how it was then.

[Billy Whizz]

It will be an eye opener for the younger generation as they see how football fans were treated back then. Some say it's bad just now but nothing like how it was then.

I've just asked my daughter to watch how we used to stand at games, and sometimes behind fences

[Betty Boop]

It's not going to be an easy watch that's for sure.
Very difficult to watch.

[Thecat23]

I'm struggling to watch this. What a shame!

[Broken Gnome]

Have the trackside camera shots been aired prior to this? Never seen them before. And don't think many could watch them again.

[Pretty Boy]

Have the trackside camera shots been aired prior to this? Never seen them before. And don't think many could watch them again.

Horrendous pictures. Really difficult watch.

[andy1875]

This is a real difficult watch.

I've seen the odd clip that you see regularly in relation to Hillsborough but this is different.

No words really when you see this footage and from people who were actually there.

Horrific.

[SteveHFC]

This is really difficult to watch.

[poolman]

This is really difficult to watch.


Its hellish, really really hellish

[Renfrew_Hibby]

And why wasn't Duckenfield jailed for a very long time?

[lyonhibs]

Some of this pitchside footage has me hiding behind the sofa practically.

Awful, awful stuff.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Man this is tough viewing, bringing back plenty bad memories of being there.

[Broken Gnome]

Some of this pitchside footage has me hiding behind the sofa practically.

Awful, awful stuff.

Looks like mass graves after a war crime. About as harrowing a thing you could see on TV.

[Pretty Boy]

And why wasn't Duckenfield jailed for a very long time?

Lying coward.

Feel for the Policemen on the ground who have told their stories. Left to run around like headless chickens trying to do what they could.

[trev the hat]

Almost in tears watching this, awful awful disaster.

[poolman]

And why wasn't Duckenfield jailed for a very long time?


He should have handcuffs on him ASAP

Absolute fu*"*"" travesty of justice

[Cabbage East]

Utterly brutal.

[Billy Whizz]

It's one of these sad moments in life that you remember where you were at the time

Thanks god football has moved on since then

[Thecat23]

Makes you think, if folk long before this happened could actually attend games without rioting or invading the pitch the fences would have never been brought into football.

They literally had no place to go and were penned in like animals. So glad they were all removed.

[lyonhibs]

"Property of the coroner"??!? How callous can you get?

[Pretty Boy]

"Property of the coroner"??!? How callous can you get?

Unbelievable.

'You'll be telling us he was a virgin next' was also utterly charming.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

A dark dark chapter in recent British history. What dignity the families and an entire community have shown in the face of the establishment machine. Anyone else raging with anger at watching this?

[andy1875]

"Property of the coroner"??!? How callous can you get?

Disgusting way to speak to a parent whilst grieving and wanting to hold his or her son/daughter.

This is one of those programmes that really makes you think and I have to confess that I have never really known alot of what has been shown tonight. Like most others, I'd seen the standard footage but never known the detail until tonight.

Upsetting and absolute sympathy for the 96 and all the families.

[Pretty Boy]

So the guy from the Health and Safety exectuive states that in the immediate aftermath he confirmed that the number of people through the turnstiles and exit gate tallied roughly with the Liverpool allocation yet the 'ticketless fans' myth persisted for 20+ years.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Lord justice smith... What a c.nt

[erin go bragh]

Had to turn it off after 20 mins . So sad . Justice at last but all involved in the lies and cover ups should be charged .

[Frazerbob]

I've had so many arguments with fellow football fans, even in the last couple of years, who still believed that the Liverpool fans were to blame. Football fans who attended games in the 80's and experienced how we were treated back then and the conditions we were subjected to. A few posters on here included. If they were taken in by the lies, what chance did everyone else have. Now everyone knows what actually happened, surely those to blame and those responsible for the establishment cover up must be brought to task before it's too late. Starting with Duckenfield and those who appointed him in the first place.

[Thecat23]

I've had so many arguments with fellow football fans, even in the last couple of years, who still believed that the Liverpool fans were to blame. Football fans who attended games in the 80's and experienced how we were treated back then and the conditions we were subjected to. A few posters on here included. If they were taken in by the lies, what chance did everyone else have. Now everyone knows what actually happened, surely those to blame and those responsible for the establishment cover up must be brought to task before it's too late. Starting with Duckenfield and those who appointed him in the first place.

Well said.

[Scouse Hibee]

Horrible to relive those memories,watching that tonight really upset me and as much as I wanted to see it,I found it so very emotional. Watching it in Liverpool with my Dad who was getting emotional recalling the wait to see if I was safe. A very powerful documentary with some very enlightening information.

[The Harp]

Difficult to watch but what an amazing documentary. It seems almost incredible to believe the amount of blatant lies told and that a cover-up in this country could remain intact for 27 years. God bless the families for their perseverance in pursuing justice for their loved ones.

[EskbankHibby]

Harrowing viewing but mostly I'm feeling angry. 27 ******* years it took for the truth to come out and the fans and families to be vindicated.

Establishment covering their backsides instead of doing their jobs. Sickening, cowardly behavior. Shame on them.

[BoomtownHibees]

"It's not like Liverpool fans to turn up late" left me wanting to punch a hole in ma telly

[Thecat23]

Horrible to relive those memories,watching that tonight really upset me and as much as I wanted to see it,I found it so very emotional. Watching it in Liverpool with my Dad who was getting emotional recalling the wait to see if I was safe. A very powerful documentary with some very enlightening information.

I found that one of the hardest things to watch and had to turn it off. I'll watch the rest tomorrow, so god knows how you feel mate. I hope the families and friends take comfort that the whole of world football were right behind the fans and we all wanted justice.

[truehibernian]

Horrible to relive those memories,watching that tonight really upset me and as much as I wanted to see it,I found it so very emotional. Watching it in Liverpool with my Dad who was getting emotional recalling the wait to see if I was safe. A very powerful documentary with some very enlightening information.

I agree Scouse, very emotional and gripping viewing.

One thing I think wasn't explained - whilst it was very balanced giving the police officers their views of events on the day and hearing how it affected the rank and file - the redacted and changed statements - surely those that submitted statements that were altered knew of the alterations ? Or was the point they never ? I was unclear on that ??

I don't think I could have it on my conscience for 20 odd years knowing someone had altered my version of events - which is why I'm asking, did officers know and stay quiet ? If so, they're complicit in the cover up.

[hibsbollah]

As has been said, almost everything in tonight's documentary has been out there since the mid 90s if you looked for it. The shocking thing (I suppose like the Saville case and so many other scandals) is that so many people knew of the wrongdoing and the abuse of power at the highest levels but did nothing about it. Raises some uncomfortable questions about human nature.

As for the families of the 96...they can only be applauded for their tenacity and eloquence right to the end.

[crewetollhibee]

I've had so many arguments with fellow football fans, even in the last couple of years, who still believed that the Liverpool fans were to blame. Football fans who attended games in the 80's and experienced how we were treated back then and the conditions we were subjected to. A few posters on here included. If they were taken in by the lies, what chance did everyone else have. Now everyone knows what actually happened, surely those to blame and those responsible for the establishment cover up must be brought to task before it's too late. Starting with Duckenfield and those who appointed him in the first place.
Exactly. It wouldn't have mattered if it was Liverpool, Stockport County or Tranent Juniors who turned up at Leppings Lane that day. The arrangements made and the nonsense afterwards had NOTHING to do with which team and their supporters occupied that end of the ground.

[JimBHibees]

As has been said, almost everything in tonight's documentary has been out there since the mid 90s if you looked for it. The shocking thing (I suppose like the Saville case and so many other scandals) is that so many people knew of the wrongdoing and the abuse of power at the highest levels but did nothing about it. Raises some uncomfortable questions about human nature.

As for the families of the 96...they can only be applauded for their tenacity and eloquence right to the end.

Agree this was all pretty much known from the Taylor initial report which said it was police mismanagement and alcohol wasn't a factor to the Jimmy McGovern documentary yet the police and Sun lies were allowed to go unchallenged backed up by the establishment. Shame on all who covered up this outrage. JFT96.

[lyonhibs]

I agree Scouse, very emotional and gripping viewing.

One thing I think wasn't explained - whilst it was very balanced giving the police officers their views of events on the day and hearing how it affected the rank and file - the redacted and changed statements - surely those that submitted statements that were altered knew of the alterations ? Or was the point they never ? I was unclear on that ??

I don't think I could have it on my conscience for 20 odd years knowing someone had altered my version of events - which is why I'm asking, did officers know and stay quiet ? If so, they're complicit in the cover up.

I'm pretty sure they found out their statements had been altered about the same time we all did.

It's always been the one thing that's slightly bothered me is that sometimes one got the impression over the years that the rank and file bobbies present on the day got lumped under the umbrella of the corrupted SYP command structure.

There was such an appalling dereliction of duty by the match commander and his team that those on the front line were left without orders and reacting on instinct alone. Clearly what they saw that day still absolutely haunts them.

[InchHibby]

One of the disgusting things for me was the front page headlines on that rag the Sun newspaper.
To print such drivel on the say so of others is absolutely atrocious and unforgivable.
Then to listen to them now trying to justify their disgusting headlines makes it even worse.
I stopped buying this rag of a paper years ago.

[Scouse Hibee]

Phil Scraton, what a colossus he was in the fight for the truth.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

Phil Scraton, what a colossus he was in the fight for the truth.

That was pretty much the main thing that stood out for me too.

[Scouse Hibee]

That was pretty much the main thing that stood out for me too.

Something I had never really appreciated until last night.

[Newry Hibs]

When at the end it is said 'the fans aren't to blame', do they mean the 96 or all the fans?

If they mean all the fans, then I think they have justice as well. Though perhaps that was also part of the truth campaign?

I didn't really want to watch it and joined late, kept meaning to turn off - but just couldn't stop watching.

[Scouse Hibee]

When at the end it is said 'the fans aren't to blame', do they mean the 96 or all the fans?

If they mean all the fans, then I think they have justice as well. Though perhaps that was also part of the truth campaign?

I didn't really want to watch it and joined late, kept meaning to turn off - but just couldn't stop watching.

All of the fans mate.

[lyonhibs]

When at the end it is said 'the fans aren't to blame', do they mean the 96 or all the fans?

If they mean all the fans, then I think they have justice as well. Though perhaps that was also part of the truth campaign?

I didn't really want to watch it and joined late, kept meaning to turn off - but just couldn't stop watching.

Same here - it's +1 hour here obviously and I kept thinking I should hit the hay with work today. Couldn't do it - a fantastic documentary.

I'll bet Phil Scratton doesn't have to buy a pint on Merseyside these days. The footage of the penny dropping for Andy Burnham was very interesting as well.

[Newry Hibs]

All of the fans mate.

Thanks. I watched this happen on tv and as i was going to football in england At The Time With Some Very Unpleasant experiences, quite frankly it was easy to believe official lines of crowd disorder. If it wasn't for the truth campaign, I would probably still think the fans weren't blameless. Well done them.

[Joe's ice cream]

I've had so many arguments with fellow football fans, even in the last couple of years, who still believed that the Liverpool fans were to blame. Football fans who attended games in the 80's and experienced how we were treated back then and the conditions we were subjected to. A few posters on here included. If they were taken in by the lies, what chance did everyone else have. Now everyone knows what actually happened, surely those to blame and those responsible for the establishment cover up must be brought to task before it's too late. Starting with Duckenfield and those who appointed him in the first place.

I'm both surprised and also disappointed regards your opening statement- I have never met or had conversations with one, not one football fan who has ever held the fans at fault in any capacity- and these include fans supporting a wide range of teams

[G B Young]

I think Hillsborough seems even more shocking to a younger generation who have perhaps only how had their eyes truly opened to it by the recent inquest.

However, for those of us who were going to football matches back then I think it's worth saying that to focus the blame entirely on the police is missing the wider picture of what 1980s Britain was like The country in many respects was falling apart, and the lack of investment in football grounds was symptomatic of that, with 'health and safety' of scant concern. I recall Rangers fans at Easter Road using rubble from the demolished top half of the East Terracing as missiles to pelt us with during a match in the early 80s. Mind-boggling to think that such ammunition was left lying around.

However, things were worse in England and many will also remember the Bradford fire of a few years before Hillsborough. Law and order came before safety concerns and that was largely due to the fact that football hooliganism was a huge problem, compounded by the fact England had not followed Scotland's example in banning alcohol in grounds. Going to a game in England or with English clubs in Europe could be a very scary experience and I remember darts being thrown from the crowd at a game I was at. The way ordinary fans were often treated as hooligans by the police was inexcusable, but the hooligans played a big role in causing them to act that way. The tragedy is that it took Hillsborough to expose football's own role in the disaster. Only then did clubs dig into their pockets to drag the game out of the dark ages by investing in their stadiums. Rangers, it should remembered, were the first in the UK to rebuild their ground as an all seater stadium, and the Ibrox disaster played a big role in the long-term thinking behind that. But prior to Hillsborough most clubs really had simply been riding their luck and getting away with it for all those years. The Hillsborough disaster, as we saw from footage of that Wolves v Spurs cup semi, could easily have occurred years before it did.

[norhfc]

Very sad to watch and very interesting to hear the police officers point of view. I,m sure Aberdeen had the first all seated and covered stadium in UK.
Could be wrong ?

[Scouse Hibee]

I think Hillsborough seems even more shocking to a younger generation who have perhaps only how had their eyes truly opened to it by the recent inquest.

However, for those of us who were going to football matches back then I think it's worth saying that to focus the blame entirely on the police is missing the wider picture of what 1980s Britain was like The country in many respects was falling apart, and the lack of investment in football grounds was symptomatic of that, with 'health and safety' of scant concern. I recall Rangers fans at Easter Road using rubble from the demolished top half of the East Terracing as missiles to pelt us with during a match in the early 80s. Mind-boggling to think that such ammunition was left lying around.

However, things were worse in England and many will also remember the Bradford fire of a few years before Hillsborough. Law and order came before safety concerns and that was largely due to the fact that football hooliganism was a huge problem, compounded by the fact England had not followed Scotland's example in banning alcohol in grounds. Going to a game in England or with English clubs in Europe could be a very scary experience and I remember darts being thrown from the crowd at a game I was at. The way ordinary fans were often treated as hooligans by the police was inexcusable, but the hooligans played a big role in causing them to act that way. The tragedy is that it took Hillsborough to expose football's own role in the disaster. Only then did clubs dig into their pockets to drag the game out of the dark ages by investing in their stadiums. Rangers, it should remembered, were the first in the UK to rebuild their ground as an all seater stadium, and the Ibrox disaster played a big role in the long-term thinking behind that. But prior to Hillsborough most clubs really had simply been riding their luck and getting away with it for all those years. The Hillsborough disaster, as we saw from footage of that Wolves v Spurs cup semi, could easily have occurred years before it did.

Yes and the year before at Hillsborough against the same opposition where I feared for my safety whilst in a Leppings Lane pen was the sole reason I was in the stand and not the terracing in 89.

[Steve-O]

"It's not like Liverpool fans to turn up late" left me wanting to punch a hole in ma telly

That was a shocker. I actually rewound it to check I'd heard properly!

[Steve-O]

Very sad to watch and very interesting to hear the police officers point of view. I,m sure Aberdeen had the first all seated and covered stadium in UK.
Could be wrong ?

Not sure about that? They've still got a big uncovered corner now. And wasn't the side where away fans stand terracing for ages? Ibrox has been all seater almost as long as I can remember, from the early 90s? And even before that they only had that main stand lower as terracing for about 10 years prior to that.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Not sure about that? They've still got a big uncovered corner now. And wasn't the side where away fans stand terracing for ages? Ibrox has been all seater almost as long as I can remember, from the early 90s? And even before that they only had that main stand lower as terracing for about 10 years prior to that.
Fairly sure the Dons were all seated before Ibrox. Soon after Gothenburg?
Don't forget the lower section of the main stand at Ibrox was terracing long after the three new stands were built.

[Bad Martini]

Disgusting way to speak to a parent whilst grieving and wanting to hold his or her son/daughter.

This is one of those programmes that really makes you think and I have to confess that I have never really known alot of what has been shown tonight. Like most others, I'd seen the standard footage but never known the detail until tonight.

Upsetting and absolute sympathy for the 96 and all the families.

Thats the point at which I could watch no more and had to turn over.

Shower of complete and utter *******s from day one (and I mean day one i.e. April 15th 1989) when the cover up started.

I remember watching this on the TV that afternoon. Anyone without an agenda and eyes could see that what had been reported didn't tally.

Lets hope ALL those involved in the cover up are hammered to the full extent of the law and then some. Lying *******s for 27 years.

JFT96.

[LaMotta]

Fairly sure the Dons were all seated before Ibrox. Soon after Gothenburg?
Don't forget the lower section of the main stand at Ibrox was terracing long after the three new stands were built.

You are right , but it was before Gothenburg. Following from wiki:

In 1977, Clydebank were promoted to the Scottish Premier Division. At that time, the grounds of clubs in Britain were required to comply with the Safety of Sports Grounds Act if their capacity was above 10,000. Clydebank, faced with a large bill to ensure compliance, decided to reduce the capacity of Kilbowie Park to 9,950 by bolting wooden bench seating to their terraces, which were open to the elements. Kilbowie thereby became the first all-seater ground in Britain, albeit as a response to an unforeseen problem rather than a long-term plan.


Aberdeen followed suit in 1978, putting benches on the open south terrace as the final part of a longer-term plan to make the ground all-seated. Subsequent to this, the south side of the ground was covered over, and Pittodrie Stadium was proclaimed as the country's first all-seated, all-covered ground, although the southern corners of the ground remained open to the skies.


In 1981, Coventry City converted Highfield Road to all-seating, the first club in England to do so, at the instigation of the then chairman, Jimmy Hill. This move, forced on the fans, proved unpopular, with attendances declining, and terracing was reinstated at one end by 1985.

[BroxburnHibee]

I was confused as to why all the statements ended up in the House of Lords.

Is that normal? Suggests to me that the Government were complicit.

Have to say I watched this with tears welling in m y eyes. I saw this unfold on TV that day.

The fact that it took so long for the truth to come out is a national disgrace.

[JimBHibees]

I was confused as to why all the statements ended up in the House of Lords.

Is that normal? Suggests to me that the Government were complicit.

Have to say I watched this with tears welling in m y eyes. I saw this unfold on TV that day.

The fact that it took so long for the truth to come out is a national disgrace.

Not sure it is normal or not assuming the latest government inquiry led by Lord 'unlike Liverpool fans to be late :fuming:' was able to collect the statements for his use and store them there. Given Phil Scratton said they were a complete mess kind of suggests he didnt do much/anything with them.

[JimBHibees]

I'm pretty sure they found out their statements had been altered about the same time we all did.

It's always been the one thing that's slightly bothered me is that sometimes one got the impression over the years that the rank and file bobbies present on the day got lumped under the umbrella of the corrupted SYP command structure.

There was such an appalling dereliction of duty by the match commander and his team that those on the front line were left without orders and reacting on instinct alone. Clearly what they saw that day still absolutely haunts them.

While there might have been some that didnt know I think that the on the ground police would have had an idea this was going on based on the public comments by MP's/Senior Cops/ Police federation spokesman to not know something was going on. I saw an interview with I think it was a WPC or may have been an ambulance woman come to that who was severely leant on to sign the statement even though she wasnt at all happy with the changes that had been made, Threats to her career etc.

[hibsbollah]

Let's be honest, if you join up the dots re-the commonalities with Orgreave, the involvement of the unholy trinity of the police the press and politicians, all the signs point to the Government of the time getting away with being the driver behind the coverup. Don't tell me there wasn't something dodgy about that first Accidental Death verdict either. All very convenient for the home office.

[21.05.2016]

Very difficult to watch, absolutely heartbreaking stuff.


The courage and dignity the families showed is truly inspiring though.

[JimBHibees]

Let's be honest, if you join up the dots re-the commonalities with Orgreave, the involvement of the unholy trinity of the police the press and politicians, all the signs point to the Government of the time getting away with being the driver behind the coverup. Don't tell me there wasn't something dodgy about that first Accidental Death verdict either. All very convenient for the home office.

Undoubtedly involved especially when you see the MP's of the time mouthing off about the fans with the same lines. When you also see the hugely offensive comments from Boris about it also, no doubt that was the story being peddled.

[Deansy]

I was confused as to why all the statements ended up in the House of Lords.

Is that normal? Suggests to me that the Government were complicit.

Have to say I watched this with tears welling in m y eyes. I saw this unfold on TV that day.

The fact that it took so long for the truth to come out is a national disgrace.

Thatchers reign - football-fans were predominantly working-class so therefore were s**m !

The fact it took 27 years before the truth came out, leaves none of our 'Political class' looking good but the 'establishment' ALWAYS looks after it's own no matter what the cost - even people's life's !!. I sincerely hope that at the end of this awful event, Dukinfield - at the very least - is jailed and stripped of his lucrative pension (along with several others) but I won't hold my breath !!

[Smartie]

Thatchers reign - football-fans were predominantly working-class so therefore were s**m !

The fact it took 27 years before the truth came out, leaves none of our 'Political class' looking good but the 'establishment' ALWAYS looks after it's own no matter what the cost - even people's life's !!. I sincerely hope that at the end of this awful event, Dukinfield - at the very least - is jailed and stripped of his lucrative pension (along with several others) but I won't hold my breath !!

Generally I would agree but I thought that it took balls of steel for Andy Burnham to pick the campaign up and take it forward at the 20th anniversary memorial service. He could have weathered the discomfort of the day and moved quietly on but he didn't. I think he deserves to be spoken of as highly as people speak of Phil Scraton tbh.

I also think that Teresa May should get credit for some of her words and actions over the past few weeks (and she's not my cup of tea, not by a long shot).

[BroxburnHibee]

I think Burnham has earned the respect of the families since that day.

[JimBHibees]

Generally I would agree but I thought that it took balls of steel for Andy Burnham to pick the campaign up and take it forward at the 20th anniversary memorial service. He could have weathered the discomfort of the day and moved quietly on but he didn't. I think he deserves to be spoken of as highly as people speak of Phil Scraton tbh.

I also think that Teresa May should get credit for some of her words and actions over the past few weeks (and she's not my cup of tea, not by a long shot).

Hmm would be very wary about giving May credit, very easy for her and Cameron for that matter to be making sanctimonious comments now when they said nothing for years. Burnham had the backbone to go to the Memorial event when other MP's Straw being one didnt have the nerve to show up. Being publicly humiliated though made him and his party do something though.

[Scouse Hibee]

Generally I would agree but I thought that it took balls of steel for Andy Burnham to pick the campaign up and take it forward at the 20th anniversary memorial service. He could have weathered the discomfort of the day and moved quietly on but he didn't. I think he deserves to be spoken of as highly as people speak of Phil Scraton

I also think that Teresa May should get credit for some of her words and actions over the past few weeks (and she's not my cup of tea, not by a long shot).

Make no mistake no one has underestimated the influence Andy Burnham had on proceedings,the guy is recognised massively for his contribution in Liverpool.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Quite a scary watch as well. We perhaps rightly or wrongly we think of ourselves ( UK) as the keeper of fairness and justice, and we would watch such injustices from other countries, including the US and shake our heads and in judgement and say " it couldn't happen here".
In retrospect, you can see that the Top Management of the South Yorkshire Police Force had no checks and balances on their methods and behaviours and is a horrific thought as to where that was endorsed and how far up it went.
No one wants to side-line the families of the 96, but when they have had their recompense, however that materialises, the investigation into the SYP has to continue until everyone who has been let down by them has had their story told.

[Sioux]

I'm both surprised and also disappointed regards your opening statement- I have never met or had conversations with one, not one football fan who has ever held the fans at fault in any capacity- and these include fans supporting a wide range of teams

You must have been living in a time warp. Never been in Manchester? There were posters on here some time back that wouldn't believe the 'truth'. If the whole world knew the truth and believed it, this disgrace wouldn't have gone on for 27 ******* years!

The families of the 96 were fighting an uphill battle, and one of the reasons was that too many people believed that officialdom couldn't be wrong. Whilst the establishment are complicit in this whole affair from Thatcher down, plenty others should be hanging their heads in shame.

[G B Young]

You must have been living in a time warp. Never been in Manchester? There were posters on here some time back that wouldn't believe the 'truth'. If the whole world knew the truth and believed it, this disgrace wouldn't have gone on for 27 ******* years!

The families of the 96 were fighting an uphill battle, and one of the reasons was that too many people believed that officialdom couldn't be wrong. Whilst the establishment are complicit in this whole affair from Thatcher down, plenty others should be hanging their heads in shame.

Sadly that just comes down the worst excesses of club 'rivalry' and tragedies like Hillsborough, Munich, Ibrox etc get picked up by the more moronic elements of a club's support to taunt their rivals, and Hillsborough for some was equated with Heysel as evidence that Liverpool fans are troublemaking thugs on a regular basis.

Hillsborough, as we've seen, could have happened to the fans of any club who had happened to reach the FA Cup semi-final that year. It could have been Forest fans had the segregation been different. On occasions like that any right thinking person should be able to see beyond the football and focus on the human tragedy. I'd like to think we'd all see it that way if it had been Hearts fans involved.

[tamig]

It will be an eye opener for the younger generation as they see how football fans were treated back then. Some say it's bad just now but nothing like how it was then.

Indeed. I watched it with my 15 year old boy who has been a ST holder for a few years now. He couldn't believe the conditions. Excellent documentary and the decision reached the other week should have been concluded following Taylor's initial report. An absolute scandal.

[Sioux]

Sadly that just comes down the worst excesses of club 'rivalry' and tragedies like Hillsborough, Munich, Ibrox etc get picked up by the more moronic elements of a club's support to taunt their rivals, and Hillsborough for some was equated with Heysel as evidence that Liverpool fans are troublemaking thugs on a regular basis.

Hillsborough, as we've seen, could have happened to the fans of any club who had happened to reach the FA Cup semi-final that year. It could have been Forest fans had the segregation been different. On occasions like that any right thinking person should be able to see beyond the football and focus on the human tragedy. I'd like to think we'd all see it that way if it had been Hearts fans involved.

I do accept that football tribalism has some part to play. I probably used Manchester in bad context. But in my experience, working in Manchester, Nottingham, Liverpool and London, and a few other places to a lesser extent, there was always pockets of blame pointing at the fans. It is only recently that people now believe the evidence that the authorities were guilty of all they had been accused of for far too many years.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, it's too emotive a topic for that. :aok:

[G B Young]

I do accept that football tribalism has some part to play. I probably used Manchester in bad context. But in my experience, working in Manchester, Nottingham, Liverpool and London, and a few other places to a lesser extent, there was always pockets of blame pointing at the fans. It is only recently that people now believe the evidence that the authorities were guilty of all they had been accused of for far too many years.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, it's too emotive a topic for that. :aok:

And there will, sadly, continue to be people blaming the fans despite the inquiry findings. I recall an Italian Juve fan I knew who worked in what was then my local chip shop who told me he thought Hillsborough was karma for Heysel. Entrenched views, however misguided are hard to shift in all walks of life, largely because most people who hold them don't want their views shifted. As I said in my earlier post, the football hooliganism of the 80s made it much easier for people to think the worst of all football fans.

[ancient hibee]

Burnham had a duty to be at the anniversary -sport was part of his government responsibility.It was clear that he was just giving the old soft soap but was shouted into silence.To his credit he set up the Bishop of Liverpool panel but it's quite clear that if you want anything done you have to make a politician publicly squirm.

[Scouse Hibee]

Burnham had a duty to be at the anniversary -sport was part of his government responsibility.It was clear that he was just giving the old soft soap but was shouted into silence.To his credit he set up the Bishop of Liverpool panel but it's quite clear that if you want anything done you have to make a politician publicly squirm.

Unfair to be honest,he was invited to attend but could have ducked out,he didn't and as a football fan himself (Evertonian) he too had attended a semi final at Hillsborough as a fan.

[SeanWilson]

Just finished what is quite possibly the most upsetting and disturbing things I've ever seen - fiction or reality. The fact this actually happened to these people/families and what they've subsequently had to endure for 27 years is just nothing short of obscene. :fuming:

[The Baldmans Comb]

You must have been living in a time warp. Never been in Manchester? There were posters on here some time back that wouldn't believe the 'truth'. If the whole world knew the truth and believed it, this disgrace wouldn't have gone on for 27 ******* years!

The families of the 96 were fighting an uphill battle, and one of the reasons was that too many people believed that officialdom couldn't be wrong. Whilst the establishment are complicit in this whole affair from Thatcher down, plenty others should be hanging their heads in shame.


Absolutely correct. There were substantial pockets of fans from all teams who did believe the officials,they did believe politicians, they did believe the police and shamefully they did believe The Sun.

Football website message boards were alive for many years with furious debate but slowly over 27 years the true message began to filter out

Bloody Sunday, Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, Hillsborough are just a few examples of huge miscarriages of justice.

Orgreave,Jimmy Saville and The Iraq war are next in line and in many years to come it might be the child abuse scandals of the 80's, Lockerbie or the BallyMurphy massacre.

There is just a section of society who just cant think for themselves and process spoon fed information in a simplistic manner that maintains the status quo with heroes and villians where governments and officialdom always know best.

[JimBHibees]

Absolutely correct. There were substantial pockets of fans from all teams who did believe the officials,they did believe politicians, they did believe the police and shamefully they did believe The Sun.

Football website message boards were alive for many years with furious debate but slowly over 27 years the true message began to filter out

Bloody Sunday, Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, Hillsborough are just a few examples of huge miscarriages of justice.

Orgreave,Jimmy Saville and The Iraq war are next in line and in many years to come it might be the child abuse scandals of the 80's, Lockerbie or the BallyMurphy massacre.

There is just a section of society who just cant think for themselves and process spoon fed information in a simplistic manner that maintains the status quo with heroes and villians where governments and officialdom always know best.

Agree that alot people will believe what they are spoon fed by the media and authority bodies. The miscarriages listed and many others show why that shouldnt be the case. The initial Taylor report nailed exactly what happened and that was 27 years ago yet the families were put through hell and back because some despicable incompetent couldnt or wasnt allowed to admit his culpability, How anyone could live with the consequences of what Duckenfield did is incredible?

A few heroic characters in that story such as obviously Phil Scraton but also the policeman who told him the truth of what had gone on and obviously the run of the mill people trying to save lives on the day. Only one ambulance on the pitch and police forming a line across the pitch while people were dying just yards away from them is simply astounding.

[ACLeith]

Absolutely correct. There were substantial pockets of fans from all teams who did believe the officials,they did believe politicians, they did believe the police and shamefully they did believe The Sun.

Football website message boards were alive for many years with furious debate but slowly over 27 years the true message began to filter out

Bloody Sunday, Guildford 4, Birmingham 6, Hillsborough are just a few examples of huge miscarriages of justice.

Orgreave,Jimmy Saville and The Iraq war are next in line and in many years to come it might be the child abuse scandals of the 80's, Lockerbie or the BallyMurphy massacre.

There is just a section of society who just cant think for themselves and process spoon fed information in a simplistic manner that maintains the status quo with heroes and villians where governments and officialdom always know best.

We await the Chilcott report with interest :agree:

[superfurryhibby]

Just watched this last night. I'm not ashamed to say that it was a very tearful experience and even writing this on my commute through to Glasgow, I can feel some strong emotions welling up.

The extent of the cover up, the incompetency and complicity is truly criminal. Those responsible must be held to account. That should be the next step in delivering some kind of justice for those poor souls and their families.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Just watched this last night. I'm not ashamed to say that it was a very tearful experience and even writing this on my commute through to Glasgow, I can feel some strong emotions welling up.

The extent of the cover up, the incompetency and complicity is truly criminal. Those responsible must be held to account. That should be the next step in delivering some kind of justice for those poor souls and their families.

:agree:

Felt the same watching it, very powerful documentary

[Baldy Foghorn]

Agree that alot people will believe what they are spoon fed by the media and authority bodies. The miscarriages listed and many others show why that shouldnt be the case. The initial Taylor report nailed exactly what happened and that was 27 years ago yet the families were put through hell and back because some despicable incompetent couldnt or wasnt allowed to admit his culpability, How anyone could live with the consequences of what Duckenfield did is incredible?

A few heroic characters in that story such as obviously Phil Scraton but also the policeman who told him the truth of what had gone on and obviously the run of the mill people trying to save lives on the day. Only one ambulance on the pitch and police forming a line across the pitch while people were dying just yards away from them is simply astounding.

The fan were treated like cattle, and the police obviously viewed them as hooligans. How badly could they have got that wrong. Duckenfield never had a clue, and apparently "froze". Atrocious, then the cover up, the lies, the bullying, from Senior Officers, to Politicians is scandalous.

As someone said in a prior post many more of these cover ups have occurred, and doubtless many more will continue.

[JimBHibees]

The fan were treated like cattle, and the police obviously viewed them as hooligans. How badly could they have got that wrong. Duckenfield never had a clue, and apparently "froze". Atrocious, then the cover up, the lies, the bullying, from Senior Officers, to Politicians is scandalous.

As someone said in a prior post many more of these cover ups have occurred, and doubtless many more will continue.

Not just froze but also then lied to the FA President that fans had charged the gate and then minutes later John Motson is putting it out to the world that is what happened. Taylor nailed it in the first report when he said Duckenfield was at fault and complete lack of management and the fans did nothing wrong yet the cover up continued and no one was held culpable. Sometimes there is a misguided superiority from people in the UK that their systems are better than others, this sort of thing show exactly that to be totally wrong.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Not just froze but also then lied to the FA President that fans had charged the gate and then minutes later John Motson is putting it out to the world that is what happened. Taylor nailed it in the first report when he said Duckenfield was at fault and complete lack of management and the fans did nothing wrong yet the cover up continued and no one was held culpable. Sometimes there is a misguided superiority from people in the UK that their systems are better than others, this sort of thing show exactly that to be totally wrong.

:agree:

Incredulous looking back over that, and to think these cover ups from the top down are still ongoing

[WeeRussell]

I have to hold my hands up to not realising/appreciating the full extent of what 'Hillsborough' entailed. Some truly harrowing scenes and disgusting behaviour.

One of the saddest things is how little of a surprise it is that the 'Powers that Be' behaved in this way, and got away with it for so long. A sad reflection on our world.

RIP and JFT 96.