Labour’s antisemitism crisis

[Hibbyradge]

In his column in today's edition of 'The Times', Philip Collins pinpoints the cause of current anti-Semitism scandal that is engulfing the Labour Party - the election of Jeremy Corbyn as Leader of the Labour Party.

While that view is moot, his deconstruction of Ken Livingstone is devastating.

"Just after the turn of the century I attended one of the finest speeches by a Labour politician I can recall. At the Labour Friends of Israel annual lunch, Gordon Brown, who was then chancellor, moved his audience to tears, me included, with stories of visiting Israel as a boy with his father, a Church of Scotland minister, to celebrate the Jewish return to Zion that was prophesied in the Bible. Mr Brown spoke without notes, with barely controlled emotion and an impressive command of the historical facts. He did not spare the Israeli government of the day but he paid his dues to the terrible past. I felt proud to be a member of a party in which this man was a leading figure.

Yesterday, Ken Livingstone, the former Labour mayor of London, said on the BBC’s Daily Politics programme that antisemites don’t just hate Jews in Israel, they also hate their neighbours in Golders Green. It is, apparently, possible to hate (I stress the word hate) Jews in Israel and not be antisemitic. Last week, Channel 4’s Unreported World showed the penury in which some Holocaust survivors live in Israel. It is, according to Mr Livingstone, possible to hate those people and not be thought antisemitic. To be a member of this party on such a day, in concert with such a man, is to feel pride’s opposite, which is shame. How did it ever come to this?

It came to this because the party elected a feeble incompetent as its leader and all the filth has swept in. Jeremy Corbyn did not create antisemitism on the left, nor does he seek to foster it. But all leaders have an ambit, a space around them in which some beliefs are licensed and others are proscribed. A life on the fringe left of British politics steeps its student members in the ignorant loathing of America and Israel. Under a serious leader these people are nowhere near the seat of power. Under Mr Corbyn one of them is Seumas Milne, the director of strategy, who allows a terrible story to run for hours with no comment at all from the leader. There is an adage that, in modern politics, you are either quick or you are dead. Labour adds a third category: zombie.

The chief zombie, stretching back years now, is Ken Livingstone. It is no surprise to anyone who has followed his career that Mr Livingstone is full of bilious ignorance. The only surprise is that he has lost his political touch to the extent that he is no longer concealing his bigotry behind the façade of bonhomie. The political professional in Mr Livingstone would never have told an interviewer that the forcible deportation of the Jews (Naz Shah’s charming suggestion) was no worse than “rude”. Even if he agreed with the sentiment, he would have spotted the trap and declined to fall into it. One really does have to wonder if he isn’t becoming a little unhinged. Even if he is, these remarks are merely the rising to the surface of a nastiness that has always lurked below the water-line. Now that Mr Livingstone has been suspended by the party pending an investigation into his conduct, let us prepare the charge sheet.

As leader of the Greater London Council, Mr Livingstone was chief culprit in the infantile Labour politics of the 1980s in which gestures and postures took the name of action. This was the London of the nuclear-free zone and funding for Babies Against The Bomb. Every strike supported, no matter the merits of the case, a relish for taking spending decisions to the courts in defiance of basic Micawber principles of finance, an indefensible advocacy of perpetrators of violence in Northern Ireland.

In recent times, Mr Livingstone’s adolescent view of the world took him to City Hall where he fastened on the bright idea of buying oil from the egregious Hugo Chávez of Venezuela. Despite the preening self-righteousness that allowed him to denounce tax avoiders as “rich *******s who should not be allowed to vote”, Mr Livingstone established Silveta Ltd, into which he paid his freelance earnings, so as to minimise his tax bill. Too large a fraction of those earnings came from Press TV, a channel owned and controlled by the government of Iran, a theocratic regime that denies the truth of the Holocaust and advocates stoning for adultery and homosexuality. Those are causes also taken up by Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, Mr Livingstone’s friend, who supports female genital mutilation, suicide bombing in Israel and the whipping of homosexuals.

Soon people will not be able to look Labour friends in the eye
The prejudice was there all along. During preparation for the Olympics Mr Livingstone told two Jewish businessmen, David and Simon Reuben, to go back where he believed they came from, which was Iran (though in fact they were from India). Door-stepped by Oliver Finegold, a Jewish reporter on the London Evening Standard, Mr Livingstone compared him to a guard at a concentration camp. During his failed bid to be re-elected mayor in 2008, Mr Livingstone suggested he could do without the votes of Jews because they were all stinking rich.

This is all bad enough but yesterday was the end. A member of Labour’s national executive committee toured the broadcasting studios to say that, in 1932, Hitler’s policy was to deport the Jews to Israel (a non-existent country). It is not worth the effort to begin to unravel either the historical stupidity or the unconscionable offence.

Just get rid of this superannuated fool. The investigation can be done in days. It all happened live, on LBC and the BBC. Until he hid in a disabled toilet, Mr Livingstone was parading his venomous ignorance all over town. The evidence is in. There can be no equivocation, no tiresome distinctions between Zionism, Israel and antisemitism. Just get out, Ken, and take your poisonous entourage with you.

There will soon come a time when people like me cannot look good friends in the eye if we remain members of a party that includes the likes of Ken Livingstone. This is not the centre of gravity in the party, of course it’s not. John Mann, MP, spoke for Labour when he denounced Mr Livingstone as a Nazi apologist. Yet a London mayoral candidate has just had to interrupt his campaign to denounce his predecessor as a racist. How could it have come to this? How could it ever have come to this?

In his autobiography, Mr Livingstone writes that joining the Labour party in 1968 was “one of the few recorded instances of a rat climbing aboard a sinking ship”. That is only half right; Labour stayed afloat. It will sink, though, under the weight of this prejudice because good people will leave. The first move is to expel Ken Livingstone. He can retire and write another autobiography. He can call it My Struggle."

[hibsbollah]

So far I see nothing anti Semitic from Livingstone. I didn't see anything anti Semitic in the original Facebook post about Israel from the other Labour MP.

Until I see some actual quotes that show otherwise, I'll remain of the view that It's an extremely predictable smear campaign by Collins from the Murdoch owned Times. Livingstone didn't support the IRA, he advocated dialogue and he and Corbyn were ahead of their time and were proved right. A lot of the other stuff about Iran and Jews and stoning is just nonsense. Gross misrepresentation. But if you repeat a lie (a misrepresentation is still a lie) often enough people tend to believe it.

[Betty Boop]

A slow coup on the cards from within the Shadow Cabinet, where a coordinated effort to silence Jezza and critics of Israel, by smearing them as anti-semites. Utterly shameful behaviour.

[cabbageandribs1875]

oh look, here's another involved with the Labour party


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-36009544

A Labour councillor has been suspended from the party over anti-Semitic comments on her Twitter account.
A message on Luton councillor Aysegul Gurbuz's Twitter feed claimed Hitler was the "greatest man in history".


vile, absolutely VILE

[Sergio sledge]

A slow coup on the cards from within the Shadow Cabinet, where a coordinated effort to silence Jezza and critics of Israel, by smearing them as anti-semites. Utterly shameful behaviour.

To many people criticism of Israel = anti-semitism. Of course that isn't true, but sadly it seems to be becoming the normal attitude.

[hibsbollah]

It's like since the Hillsborough jury came out Murdoch has gone '**** it, let's chuck everything at them'.

[Hibbyradge]

Murdoch has had nothing to do with the Ken Livingstone incident.

He made his comments on LBC and BBC and every newspaper has articles arguing that Livingstone should be expelled.

Swap the word "Zionists" for "Blacks" and you can see why people were upset by Shah’s original remarks and Livingstone’s defence of them.

I remember Nick Griffin saying on Question Time something about sending people out of their own country (UK) to where they'd be better accepted.

I didn't like that at the time either.

And WTF was he thinking about when he came out with all that nonsense about Hitler. Even if it wasn't totally erogenous, which it is, it was a crassly misjudged argument.

[Hibbyradge]

It's like since the Hillsborough jury came out Murdoch has gone '**** it, let's chuck everything at them'.

I just realised what you said.

Do you think Murdoch would have preferred a different verdict? If so, why?

They accepted that what they said at the time was wrong and grossly unfair and they apologised.

I still despise the Sun and Murdoch, but if you're suggesting that the jury's verdict would have disappointed anyone at News International, then I think you're the one that's out of order now.

[lucky]

Being pro Palestine is different from anti Semitic. But too many take it as that. Yesterday's comments by Livingston were not the sharpest but the behaviour of John Mann MP was pathetic. I know which one I'd want kicked out the party.

[lapsedhibee]

WTF was he thinking about when he came out with all that nonsense about Hitler. Even if it wasn't totally erogenous, which it is, it was a crassly misjudged argument.

Pervert.

[hibsbollah]

I just realised what you said.

Do you think Murdoch would have preferred a different verdict? If so, why?

They accepted that what they said at the time was wrong and grossly unfair and they apologised.

I still despise the Sun and Murdoch, but if you're suggesting that the jury's verdict would have disappointed anyone at News International, then I think you're the one that's out of order now.

Of course they're disappointed at the verdict, do you seriously think otherwise? They're back in the news for the wrong reasons. Stories like Hillsborough and Milly Dowler should make any normal thinking persons blood run cold and Murdoch, the man at the top, I believe has no conscience or morality. Call that ooo if you like but I believe it to be the truth.

I still wait for your explanation as to why your quoted piece is a 'devastating destruction' of Livingstone, and not a piece of predictable and squalid propaganda. Murdoch likes power and money, he knows if a left wing Labour government gets elected he won't have the power he's enjoyed over successive British governments over the last 30 years and as a multimillionaire his tax bill will go up. So he's determined to destroy it. It's that simple.

I'm aware that other news outlets are also going mad with the story, which is deeply depressing. But not really surprising, since none of them, notably The Guardian, has supported Corbyns Labour from day one.

[hibsbollah]

Being pro Palestine is different from anti Semitic. But too many take it as that. Yesterday's comments by Livingston were not the sharpest but the behaviour of John Mann MP was pathetic. I know which one I'd want kicked out the party.

:agree:

If Ken is guilty of anything it's a lack of strategic awareness that the media is desperate to find anything to kick the party with at the moment.

[Hibbyradge]

Pervert.

Lol. Good spot.

Eroneous.

[Hibbyradge]

:agree:

If Ken is guilty of anything it's a lack of strategic awareness that the media is desperate to find anything to kick the party with at the moment.

That's funny.

[hibsbollah]

That's funny.

I think you're trolling.

[Hibbyradge]

Of course they're disappointed at the verdict, do you seriously think otherwise? They're back in the news for the wrong reasons. Stories like Hillsborough and Milly Dowler should make any normal thinking persons blood run cold and Murdoch, the man at the top, I believe has no conscience or morality. Call that ooo if you like but I believe it to be the truth.

I still wait for your explanation as to why your quoted piece is a 'devastating destruction' of Livingstone, and not a piece of predictable and squalid propaganda. Murdoch likes power and money, he knows if a left wing Labour government gets elected he won't have the power he's enjoyed over successive British governments over the last 30 years and as a multimillionaire his tax bill will go up. So he's determined to destroy it. It's that simple.

I'm aware that other news outlets are also going mad with the story, which is deeply depressing. But not really surprising, since none of them, notably The Guardian, has supported Corbyns Labour from day one.

You obviously know about squalid propaganda. You made all of that up. Not a fact in sight.

Except for the part that Murdoch is rich and that folk don't support Corbyn. That's absolutely true.

[Hibbyradge]

I think you're trolling.

You think that a man who has been at the forefront of UK politics since the 60's, a man who was the Mayor of London and currently advises the leader of the Labour Party lacks strategic awareness?

That really is funny.

[hibsbollah]

You think that a man who has been at the forefront of UK politics since the 60's, a man who was the Mayor of London and currently advises the leader of the Labour Party lacks strategic awareness?

That really is funny.

In this scenario, yes he has shown a lack of awareness, yeah.

You really are an odd poster. You've started a thread, and then spent the rest of it determinedly avoiding actually engaging in the debate.

[Hibbyradge]

In this scenario, yes he has shown a lack of awareness, yeah.

You really are an odd poster. You've started a thread, and then spent the rest of it determinedly avoiding actually engaging in the debate.

:confused:

I've posted as many times as anyone else on this thread and I've answered every point made, even though most of them have been partisan and unthinking.

The same attributes which will see the left in this country marginalised and made irrelevant.

[hibsbollah]

:confused:

I've posted as many times as anyone else on this thread and I've answered every point made, even though most of them have been partisan and unthinking.

The same attributes which will see the left in this country marginalised and made irrelevant.

Well very little of that is actually true now, is it? And I guess we are getting to the crux of the matter with your parting shot about the Left. You think he should resign because he has a socialist platform you don't like, no?

Let's try again...Assuming you agree with The Times piece, what is it that Livingstone actually said, that you think are grounds for him to be described as an anti Semite? (Give it a bash in the morning if you like, I know it's getting on a bit).

[Hibbyradge]

You've lost me completely now.

Who did I say should resign?

[hibsbollah]

You've lost me completely now.

Who did I say should resign?

Sigh. That bit I assumed. I apologise profusely if you think the man were discussing is doing a great job and you think he should stay on.

Maybe you missed my question about what he said that was antisemitic?

[Hibbyradge]

Sigh. That bit I assumed. I apologise profusely if you think the man were discussing doing a great job and think he should stay on.

Maybe you missed my question about what he said that was antisemitic?

I'm perfectly happy for Livingstone to stay where he is. Corbyn suspended him, not me.

He supported remarks which the Labour Party had determined were antisemitic.

The fact that he knows very little about Hitler, but tried to use him to make his defence is merely pathetic.

[hibsbollah]

I'm perfectly happy for Livingstone to stay where he is. Corbyn suspended him, not me.

He supported remarks which the Labour Party had determined were antisemitic.

The fact that he knows very little about Hitler, but tried to use him to make his defence is merely pathetic.

Do YOU hear anything anti Semitic or in any way shameful or unpleasant in what Ken actually said? (Link below, approximately 5 mins). Be honest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36163432

And regardless of what the Labour Party has been bounced into doing, what did Shah say that you think was anti Semitic?

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36165298

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36165298

That's not evidence of Livingstone being an anti Semite. That's evidence of an academic saying Livingstone got his historical borders wrong (Israel didn't exist in the 1930s, hence Hitler couldn't have supported sending the Jews there). It's an exercise in semantics.

But there's a political witchhunt on which is all that matters.

[marinello59]

Do YOU hear anything anti Semitic or in any way shameful or unpleasant in what Ken actually said? (Link below, approximately 5 mins). Be honest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36163432

And regardless of what the Labour Party has been bounced into doing, what did Shah say that you think was anti Semitic?

Shah has to her credit admitted that her comments were anti-Semitic and apologised as well as starting to build bridges in her local community.

[hibsbollah]

Shah has to her credit admitted that her comments were anti-Semitic and apologised as well as starting to build bridges in her local community.

I know she was forced to apologise, although it fell just short of saying the comments were antisemitic. That doesn't mean they were antisemitic, it just means she wants to keep her job in a political ****storm.

[NYHibby]

You think that a man who has been at the forefront of UK politics since the 60's, a man who was the Mayor of London and currently advises the leader of the Labour Party lacks strategic awareness?

That really is funny.

Yes. He kept needlessly doubling down on the comments. It wasn't like he made one comment in passing and slightly misspoke or was taken out of context. He kept giving comments to the media. After the first comment he could have put out something in writing and then laid low.

What did he hope to accomplish in the first place by saying anything? Keep the issue in the spotlight longer? Labour has had a number of these antisemitic incidents this year. You don't need to be that smart to see the lifecycle of these stories.

[steakbake]

That's not evidence of Livingstone being an anti Semite. That's evidence of an academic saying Livingstone got his historical borders wrong (Israel didn't exist in the 1930s, hence Hitler couldn't have supported sending the Jews there). It's an exercise in semantics.

But there's a political witchhunt on which is all that matters.

Yes, astonishing given the tone of Goldsmith's mayoral campaign and the general climate of hostility/suspicion towards Muslims...

[Hibbyradge]

It's an exercise in semantics.



Indeed.

Justifying Shah and Livingstone’s remarks on the grounds that they may not be technically antisemitic is stretching semantics to the limit.

I wonder how Livingstone would have reacted if someone suggested that Bradford be moved to Bangladesh. Or Peckham to West Africa.

(But, but, but, enter more hair splitting here)

Anyway, Corbyn is investigating. We'll see what emerges in due course.

[matty_f]

The persistence of the story in the media has certainly taken the heat off the government for their shameful immigration bill vote.

Who gives a toss about 3000 children, Ken Livingston might not like Jews.

I'm in no way defending Livingstone or Labour, and I welcome Corbyn's investigation into the party, but it's a very convenient storm for the establishment.

[Hibbyradge]

The persistence of the story in the media has certainly taken the heat off the government for their shameful immigration bill vote.

Who gives a toss about 3000 children, Ken Livingston might not like Jews.

I'm in no way defending Livingstone or Labour, and I welcome Corbyn's investigation into the party, but it's a very convenient storm for the establishment.

It is, Matty, and I'm sure the Tories are very grateful to Shah and Livingstone for helping them out just when they needed it.

Only the most anti-Corbyn commentators would suggest it had anything to do with his leadership though.

[Beefster]

I know she was forced to apologise, although it fell just short of saying the comments were antisemitic. That doesn't mean they were antisemitic, it just means she wants to keep her job in a political ****storm.

Apparently Shah's original draft of the apology did say the comments were antisemitic.

[hibsbollah]

Apparently Shah's original draft of the apology did say the comments were antisemitic.

Well if so I'm glad they were amended. The whole thing is ridiculous. I'd feel the same if a UKIP or Tory was being treated in the same way.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36177333

So all Hitler wanted to do was transport Jews in Germany to (a non-existent) Israel so that proves he was a Zionists and not antisemitic.

I see.

Does that mean Nick Griffin isn't a racist after all?

[hibsbollah]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36177333

So all Hitler wanted to do was transport Jews in Germany to (a non-existent) Israel so that proves he was a Zionists and not antisemitic.

I see.

Does that mean Nick Griffin isn't a racist after all?

I don't think what you've written there makes any kind of sense.

[Hibbyradge]

I don't think what you've written there makes any kind of sense.

Exactly.

The suggestion that Hitler was a Zionist is beyond comprehension.

[hibsbollah]

Exactly.

The suggestion that Hitler was a Zionist is beyond comprehension.

:rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

:rolleyes:

At least you haven't disagreed with me this time.

I'm pleased. Progress made.

[hibsbollah]

At least you haven't disagreed with me this time.

I'm pleased. Progress made.

Not really. Youve resorted to type and gone for the childish 'twisting other posters words' game. Boring.

[RyeSloan]

Must admit I'm a bit confused about the furore around this.

True Livingston is a moron that should have been left out to pasture and any comments or points using Hitler and the Jews is going to be a quagmire but if my understanding is correct he is suggesting that Hitler wanted to deport the Jews before going a bit further and deciding to massacre 6 million of them.

While hardly a graceful point I'm struggling to see what was directly anti-Semitic about that statement, was it simply hat he used the term Zionist and attributed Hitler to being one?

[Hibbyradge]

Not really. Youve resorted to type and gone for the childish 'twisting other posters words' game. Boring.

I've made my points and you've chosen to ignore or mock the ones which you can't answer and now you're resorting to insults. That's a shame.

I don't believe you're not bright enough to understand the point I was making with the Nick Griffin analogy, and given that you've stopped saying that Livingstone’s remarks were correct, it's easy to conclude that you agree with my assertion that he's wrong.

Compulsory expulsion of all Jews into a completely hostile and barren territory can not be described as Zionism ie wanting an established Jewish homeland and state, and for Livingstone to suggest it was is hugely offensive.

[Hibbyradge]

...was it simply hat he used the term Zionist and attributed Hitler to being one?

Yes.

His defence of Shah wasn't clever, but the Hitler nonsense is what upset most people.

[Betty Boop]

Statement from the Jewish Socialists Group on Labour's 'problem' with antisemetism.


http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

[Glory Lurker]

The very fact that Ken Livingstone has any influence at all on the modern day Labour Party is tragic. Completely unelectable in their current state, a bunch of secondary school debating society loudmouths, and all this when the Tories are just asking to be holed beneath the waterline over their divisions over Europe and general, all-round right-wing nastiness. Cameron mustn't be able to believe his luck. :-(

[marinello59]

The very fact that Ken Livingstone has any influence at all on the modern day Labour Party is tragic. Completely unelectable in their current state, a bunch of secondary school debating society loudmouths, and all this when the Tories are just asking to be holed beneath the waterline over their divisions over Europe and general, all-round right-wing nastiness. Cameron mustn't be able to believe his luck. :-(

:top marks

[heretoday]

Must admit I'm a bit confused about the furore around this.

True Livingston is a moron that should have been left out to pasture and any comments or points using Hitler and the Jews is going to be a quagmire but if my understanding is correct he is suggesting that Hitler wanted to deport the Jews before going a bit further and deciding to massacre 6 million of them.

While hardly a graceful point I'm struggling to see what was directly anti-Semitic about that statement, was it simply hat he used the term Zionist and attributed Hitler to being one?

I agree with you.

[Hibbyradge]

The very fact that Ken Livingstone has any influence at all on the modern day Labour Party is tragic. Completely unelectable in their current state, a bunch of secondary school debating society loudmouths, and all this when the Tories are just asking to be holed beneath the waterline over their divisions over Europe and general, all-round right-wing nastiness. Cameron mustn't be able to believe his luck. :-(

Exactly.

Look at some of the opportunities Labour have had/has - Europe, Junior doctors, retreating on disability living allowance, IDS resignation, forced academisation, and David Cameron’s dubious tax affairs - and yet they continue to make no impact.

The most powerful speeches I've heard from the opposition since Corbyn's election have come from people who oppose him; Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper and Mhairi Black.

Still, it's better to make sure your left wing principles and credibility remain intact rather than strive for the power needed to actually make a difference for the people who need it.

Isn't it?

[Hibbyradge]

Statement from the Jewish Socialists Group on Labour's 'problem' with antisemetism.


http://www.jewishsocialist.org.uk/news/item/statement-on-labours-problem-with-antisemitism-from-the-jewish-socialists-g

Politicians accused of playing politics. Who would have known?

No mention of Hitler's Zionism, I notice.

[hibsbollah]

Exactly.

Look at some of the opportunities Labour have had/has - Europe, Junior doctors, retreating on disability living allowance, IDS resignation, forced academisation, and David Cameron’s dubious tax affairs - and yet they continue to make no impact.

The most powerful speeches I've heard from the opposition since Corbyn's election have come from people who oppose him; Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper and Mhairi Black.

Still, it's better to make sure your left wing principles and credibility remain intact rather than strive for the power needed to actually make a difference for the people who need it.

Isn't it?

It would save so much time if you just admitted at the start of this thread that a) you've never liked Corbyn and left wing politics b) you are never likely to like Corbyn and left wing politics and therefore c) your views about the current antisemitism bun fight is coloured by your satisfaction that he's getting it tight from the media again.

There's still plenty of us happy with his leadership.

[Hibbyradge]

It would save so much time if you just admitted at the start of this thread that a) you've never liked Corbyn and left wing politics b) you are never likely to like Corbyn and left wing politics and therefore c) your views about the current antisemitism bun fight is coloured by your satisfaction that he's getting it tight from the media again.

There's still plenty of us happy with his leadership.

Why would that save time? Are only Corbinistas allowed to state their opinion?

I'm not a member of any political party these days but what's happening to the Labour Party makes me very sad.

I voted SNP in the last GE, I just voted for the Labour candidate in York and I don't know who I'll support in 2020 yet.

Is that ok? Am I allowed an opinion on things or is it too time consuming?

It would be cool if you stopped avoiding other people's arguments and answered some of the points.

[hibsbollah]

Why would that save time? Are only Corbinistas allowed to state their opinion?

I'm not a member of any political party these days but what's happening to the Labour Party makes me very sad.

I voted SNP in the last GE, I just voted for the Labour candidate in York and I don't know who I'll support in 2020 yet.

Is that ok? Am I allowed an opinion on things or is it too time consuming?

It would be cool if you stopped avoiding other people's arguments and answered some of the points.

Och you're beyond parody. And now you're on ignore.

[Beefster]

It would save so much time if you just admitted at the start of this thread that a) you've never liked Corbyn and left wing politics b) you are never likely to like Corbyn and left wing politics and therefore c) your views about the current antisemitism bun fight is coloured by your satisfaction that he's getting it tight from the media again.

There's still plenty of us happy with his leadership.

On that point, it wasn't that long ago that a number of posters who now revel in sticking it to Corbyn were claiming that they'd 'return' to Labour if only they'd return to their 'left-wing roots'. Not sure if that applies to anyone on this thread, mind you.

[bawheid]

I normally vote SNP. I like Corbyn and McDonnell. I don't think Labour has 'a problem' with anti-semetism. I think the media (including the BBC) has been going for them in a very big way since Corbyn was elected. This is an extension of that. I think the neo-liberal establishment on both sides of the Atlantic is scared about what's happening. They'll do everything they can to keep their interests in power.

That about covers my views on this.

[hibsbollah]

I normally vote SNP. I like Corbyn and McDonnell. I don't think Labour has 'a problem' with anti-semetism. I think the media (including the BBC) has been going for them in a very big way since Corbyn was elected. This is an extension of that. I think the neo-liberal establishment on both sides of the Atlantic is scared about what's happening. They'll do everything they can to keep their interests in power.

That about covers my views on this.

The BBCs Head of News is James Harding, one of George Osbornes closest friends since his Cambridge days. Previously Murdochs editor at The Times until 2012. I'm not sure when the BBC stopped having an balanced editorial policy but it's definitely become more right wing, more sensationalist and less thoughtful than it was before Harding arrived.

[Colr]

I normally vote SNP. I like Corbyn and McDonnell. I don't think Labour has 'a problem' with anti-semetism. I think the media (including the BBC) has been going for them in a very big way since Corbyn was elected. This is an extension of that. I think the neo-liberal establishment on both sides of the Atlantic is scared about what's happening. They'll do everything they can to keep their interests in power.

That about covers my views on this.

Words have to been chosen very carefully when dealing with issues around Judaism. Jews have been treated appallingly over the centuries in Europe and have every right to feel threatened easily. Ken Livingston's comments and those coming from Islamic elements in the Labour party as well as the Haggis in a Hat, George Galloway create fear in that community which is entirely understandable.

[Hibbyradge]

Och you're beyond parody. And now you're on ignore.

Wow!

http://s32.postimg.org/gle9m7ec5/Vintage_fingers_in_ears_not_listening.jpg

[Hibbyradge]

Words have to been chosen very carefully when dealing with issues around Judaism. Jews have been treated appallingly over the centuries in Europe and have every right to feel threatened easily. Ken Livingston's comments and those coming from Islamic elements in the Labour party as well as the Haggis in a Hat, George Galloway create fear in that community which is entirely understandable.

Very true.

Presumably Dianne Abbot will now be placed on the "Hostile" list.

"One of Jeremy Corbyn's allies, shadow international development secretary Diane Abbott, has told Andrew Marr it is a "smear" against Labour members to say the party has a problem with anti-Semitism. Asked to respond to the comments that led to Ken Livingstone's suspension, she said they were "extremely offensive" and says "the party will decide" what happens to him."

[Colr]

Very true.

Presumably Dianne Abbot will now be placed on the "Hostile" list.

"One of Jeremy Corbyn's allies, shadow international development secretary Diane Abbott, has told Andrew Marr it is a "smear" against Labour members to say the party has a problem with anti-Semitism. Asked to respond to the comments that led to Ken Livingstone's suspension, she said they were "extremely offensive" and says "the party will decide" what happens to him."

Say what you like about Diane but it's great to have a supporter of private education on the far left!!

[hibsbollah]

On that point, it wasn't that long ago that a number of posters who now revel in sticking it to Corbyn were claiming that they'd 'return' to Labour if only they'd return to their 'left-wing roots'. Not sure if that applies to anyone on this thread, mind you.

It's a matter of being honest about your beliefs and then looking at the evidence fairly, IMO. The Labour Party now has an agenda which will threaten lots of interests, potentially 60% top rate of tax, limited renationalisation of the post office, railways etc. You and I have had plenty of good debates on here over the years about whether that's good for the country.

But there's a tendency now not to talk about policy and instead obsess about individuals, smearing and innuendo, taking words out of context and playing a media driven game. I can't believe anyone REALLY thinks Livingstone is any active sense a real anti Semite, It's a mad accusation. But it succeeds because it's impossible to disprove. such a horribly toxic label that has stuck now and will probably never go away for him. Boris Johnson has a terrible record of throwaway comments about blacks, and Hillsborough, and despite the Hillsborough findings coming out this week the press have pretty much left him alone. Blatant double standards of course, but I'd rather Boris didn't have to answer those questions on a daily basis either, because it's relatively unimportant compared to what Johnson or Livingston would actually do with the power they'll be given.

I'd imagine the people you're talking about haven't returned to Labour because it's easier to think about Corbyn the public image (bumbling clown who doesn't bow properly to the war dead, hires anti Semites and supported the IRA) than engage with his policies. Depressing level of debate.

[Mr Grieves]

I normally vote SNP. I like Corbyn and McDonnell. I don't think Labour has 'a problem' with anti-semetism. I think the media (including the BBC) has been going for them in a very big way since Corbyn was elected. This is an extension of that. I think the neo-liberal establishment on both sides of the Atlantic is scared about what's happening. They'll do everything they can to keep their interests in power.

That about covers my views on this.

Agree, the conservatives would appear to have 'a problem' with racism but the media aren't as interested in that.

[Hibbyradge]

This is a well balanced article from yesterdays Guardian which rightly argues that antisemitism and racism in British politics must be met head on, not excused or blamed on someone else.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/01/parties-let-poison-of-racism-back-into-politics

[Hibernia&Alba]

To many people criticism of Israel = anti-semitism. Of course that isn't true, but sadly it seems to be becoming the normal attitude.

That's the connection the Israeli government wants to create, in order to stop any criticism of their behaviour in Palestine. Well it won't work: criticism of Israel's behaviour in Gaza and the West Bank isn't to be anti-Jewish; indeed many Jews around the world are very critical of Israel.

I find it hard to believe that the Labour Party - a party that has championed equality all its existence - has a widespread problem with anti-Semitism. That isn't to say there are no individual Labour voters who hold racist views, but I don't believe there is institutional anti-Jewish racism with an organisation like the Labour Party, and I don't think Ken Livingstone is a racist.

[hibsbollah]

Now Gerry Adams is a big racist, apparently. The guardian is going to the dogs.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/02/gerry-adams-defends-n-word-tweet-django-unchained

[hibsbollah]

That's the connection the Israeli government wants to create, in order to stop any criticism of their behaviour in Palestine. Well it won't work: criticism of Israel's behaviour in Gaza and the West Bank isn't to be anti-Jewish; indeed many Jews around the world are very critical of Israel.

I find it hard to believe that the Labour Party - a party that has championed equality all its existence - has a widespread problem with anti-Semitism. That isn't to say there are no individual Labour voters who hold racist views, but I don't believe there is institutional anti-Jewish racism with an organisation like the Labour Party, and I don't think Ken Livingstone is a racist.

:agree:
Of course it doesn't and of course he's not. It only starts making sense when you ask yourself why it's a story at all.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-36185694

[Hibbyradge]

As I stated in the OP, I'm not convinced that Corbyn's leadership is to blame for what's been said by the various MPs and Councillors, and I don't think he'll be removed as a result of them.

I am pleased and relieved to read, however, that no other MPs could be found to defend Livingstone’s remarks.

We'll see what the enquiry brings in a couple of months.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/02/labour-antisemitism-crisis-naz-shah-ken-livingstone?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=170100&subid=16631905&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[hibsbollah]

https://opendemocracy.net/uk/jamie-stern-weiner-norman-finkelstein/american-jewish-scholar-behind-labour-s-antisemitism-scanda

[Future17]

To me, this is beginning to seem very much like a clampdown on freedom of speech rather than anti-Semitism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36203911

[Hibbyradge]

I wonder if she'd allow the BNP to get away with saying that "Muslims were the "chief financiers of the 9/11 terrorist attacks". :dunno:

I don't agree that it's a clampdown on free speech, though. People can say anything they want, but if what they say contravenes the core ethos of the Labour Party, they can say them elsewhere.

I'm certain that antisemitism isn't widespread within the Labour Party, but they most certainly have a crisis surrounding it.

Thanks to Shah and Livingstone, Jeremy Corbyn spent the final PM Questions defending himself, instead of attacking Cameron on the multitude of Tory failings and shoring up as many extra votes he could before today's ballot.

Of course, Corbyn's comments that Hamas and Hezbollah were his friends, were a gift.

I was literally cringing as I listened to it.

Unless Labour can get its members and officials to stop making stupid and controversial comments, whether their antisemitic nature is moot or not, Cameron will be able to slaughter Corbyn again, and at will.

[Future17]

I wonder if she'd allow the BNP to get away with saying that "Muslims were the "chief financiers of the 9/11 terrorist attacks". :dunno:

I don't agree that it's a clampdown on free speech, though. People can say anything they want, but if what they say contravenes the core ethos of the Labour Party, they can say them elsewhere.

I'm certain that antisemitism isn't widespread within the Labour Party, but they most certainly have a crisis surrounding it.

Thanks to Shah and Livingstone, Jeremy Corbyn spent the final PM Questions defending himself, instead of attacking Cameron on the multitude of Tory failings and shoring up as many extra votes he could before today's ballot.

Of course, Corbyn's comments that Hamas and Hezbollah were his friends, were a gift.

I was literally cringing as I listened to it.

Unless Labour can get its members and officials to stop making stupid and controversial comments, whether their antisemitic nature is moot or not, Cameron will be able to slaughter Corbyn again, and at will.

Based on the available information at the present time, Muslims were the chief financiers of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Not all muslims and not Islam, but certainly muslims.

I have no idea whether some of what has been said by some members of the Labour Party is anti-Semitic, but I know a lot of what has been labelled as anti-Semitic probably isn't. I think the Labour Party has big problems, probably because of its own internal divisions and power struggles but, to be honest I don't really care.

What I do care about is the wider implications of what I consider to be the incorrect classification of some statements as anti-Semitic. I think it's entirely understandable that some people may want to criticise the Israeli government and even certain aspects of the current incarnation of an Israeli state. I think they should be entitled to do that, within reason, without the fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic and the consequences which may be associated with that.

[RyeSloan]

Based on the available information at the present time, Muslims were the chief financiers of the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Not all muslims and not Islam, but certainly muslims. I have no idea whether some of what has been said by some members of the Labour Party is anti-Semitic, but I know a lot of what has been labelled as anti-Semitic probably isn't. I think the Labour Party has big problems, probably because of its own internal divisions and power struggles but, to be honest I don't really care. What I do care about is the wider implications of what I consider to be the incorrect classification of some statements as anti-Semitic. I think it's entirely understandable that some people may want to criticise the Israeli government and even certain aspects of the current incarnation of an Israeli state. I think they should be entitled to do that, within reason, without the fear of being labelled as anti-Semitic and the consequences which may be associated with that.

I agree but it's also pretty understandable that when people want to criticise the Israeli government and Israel that their starting point maybe shouldn't be Hitlers treatment of the Jews!

[Future17]

I agree but it's also pretty understandable that when people want to criticise the Israeli government and Israel that their starting point maybe shouldn't be Hitlers treatment of the Jews!

Very true and, as someone has already said on this thread, at the very least you'd expect Livingstone to be better at playing politics. However, since his comments I've heard various people (including journalists) saying he said Hitler was a Zionist, which is not what he said. Whether this is deliberate or just laziness, it's part of the wider problem IMO.

[snooky]

All this news coverage and chest thumping about a few lines of dialogue.
Everything else in the world must be fine - no wars, no hunger, no crime, no madmen running for prez.
:ostrich:

[Hibbyradge]

https://mobile.twitter.com/daniel_sugarman/status/772864881074769920

[Hibee87]

https://mobile.twitter.com/daniel_sugarman/status/772864881074769920

Im confused, is this having a go at Jeremy or not :confused: Without knowing what this lady was asked prior to her response, in what way is it anti semitic? She is stating a fact is she not :confused:

[hibsbollah]

Im confused, is this having a go at Jeremy or not :confused: Without knowing what this lady was asked prior to her response, in what way is it anti semitic? She is stating a fact is she not :confused:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36236332

If you read the tweet it's not remotely 'anti Semitic', unless anti Semitic means talking about Jewish history in any way at all. But mud sticks of course.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36236332

If you read the tweet it's not remotely 'anti Semitic', unless anti Semitic means talking about Jewish history in any way at all. But mud sticks of course.

Yep, mud sticks, but our glorious leader decides to roll about in it.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/jeremy-corbyn-israel-yad-vashem

Nae time...

[easty]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/jeremy-corbyn-israel-yad-vashem

Nae time...

To be fair, if he cancelled commitments he already had, he'd be getting slated for that, and if he had no commitments then he'd get grief for going over to Isreal when "there's plenty problems back home that need his attention".

[Hibbyradge]

To be fair, if he cancelled commitments he already had, he'd be getting slated for that, and if he had no commitments then he'd get grief for going over to Isreal when "there's plenty problems back home that need his attention".

Sorry, but I don't believe for one second that he couldn't have found time, like he found time to go on holiday during the EU referendum.

This was a perfect opportunity to demonstrate that he, and the Labour Party, were not antisemitic. He deliberately chose to snub the invitation.

At the very best, it shows his total lack of judgement, but I think it betrays his real views.

His "friends in Hamas" will be pleased.

[hibsbollah]

To be fair, if he cancelled commitments he already had, he'd be getting slated for that, and if he had no commitments then he'd get grief for going over to Isreal when "there's plenty problems back home that need his attention".

Agree. I'm shocked that he didn't go to Pyongyang to celebrate Kim Jong Euns birthday. Evidence of entrenched anti Asian racism in the Party :agree:

[Hibbyradge]

Agree. I'm shocked that he didn't go to Pyongyang to celebrate Kim Jong Euns birthday. Evidence of entrenched anti Asian racism in the Party :agree:

What a ridiculous remark, a total straw man of course, but let's deal with it on its merits.

1. He wasn't invited to Pyongyang.

He was invited to Israel

2. He's not been accused of anti-Asian racism.

He's accused of antisemitism.

He had a chance to do something about that, but declined, presumably not wanting to offend his "friends in Hamas and Hezbollah" who have pledged to destroy Israel.

Too many Important SWP rallies to attend, probably.

[Betty Boop]

Sorry, but I don't believe for one second that he couldn't have found time, like he found time to go on holiday during the EU referendum.

This was a perfect opportunity to demonstrate that he, and the Labour Party, were not antisemitic. He deliberately chose to snub the invitation.

At the very best, it shows his total lack of judgement, but I think it betrays his real views.

His "friends in Hamas" will be pleased.
Can you show any examples of Jezza being antisemitic ?

[Hibbyradge]

Can you show any examples of Jezza being antisemitic ?

He's accused of it. As Labour leader, he should be doing his best to prove those accusations wrong, not stoking the flames of suspicion.

Here's an intetesting viewpoint; https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/labour-left-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-israel?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+main+NEW+H+categories&utm_term=189829&subid=16631905&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

[hibsbollah]

Can you show any examples of Jezza being antisemitic ?

There isn't any. As we all know.

[Hibbyradge]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/13/the-lefts-jewish-problem-corbyn-israel-and-antisemitism-dave-rich-review?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[heretoday]

There's only one party whose history on anti -semitism is less than rosy and it's not the Labour Party.

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36236332

If you read the tweet it's not remotely 'anti Semitic', unless anti Semitic means talking about Jewish history in any way at all. But mud sticks of course.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/29/momentum-likely-to-oust-jackie-walker-over-holocaust-remarks

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-36236332

If you read the tweet it's not remotely 'anti Semitic', unless anti Semitic means talking about Jewish history in any way at all. But mud sticks of course.

She's only suspended so you could still be right, Mr Bollah.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37526320