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View Full Version : NHC Hillsborough verdict to be delivered at 11am



21.05.2016
26-04-2016, 09:37 AM
So sad that it has taken 27 years but hopefully the families of the 96 and the survivors finally get their justice and closure.


Justice for the 96

HUTCHYHIBBY
26-04-2016, 09:47 AM
It certainly wasn't a pleasant experience, it's just a shame its taken from about 8 months after I left school until today to get to this stage.

Craig_in_Prague
26-04-2016, 10:10 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-merseyside-36102998

flash
26-04-2016, 10:15 AM
Unlawful deaths confirmed. A big step towards justice and closure for the families.

JimBHibees
26-04-2016, 10:18 AM
Beautiful tribute to the 96 on this link. Personal messages from family members about the victims who died. Very moving.

http://hillsborough.liverpoolecho.co.uk/

flash
26-04-2016, 10:19 AM
Ridiculous that I am still just about in tears about this so many years later.
Just feel so pleased for everyone down there.

Yorkshire HFC
26-04-2016, 10:21 AM
I just can't understand why it's taken this long - I hope it helps the families in some way.

I remember the day well.

Moulin Yarns
26-04-2016, 10:21 AM
https://twitter.com/alextomo

follow it here.

21.05.2016
26-04-2016, 10:34 AM
Ridiculous that I am still just about in tears about this so many years later.
Just feel so pleased for everyone down there.

Very emotional to watch. Finally after such a long long fight at long last they have justice and the disgraceful cover up exposed.

JimBHibees
26-04-2016, 10:37 AM
Ridiculous that I am still just about in tears about this so many years later.
Just feel so pleased for everyone down there.

Hugely emotional thing to have happened at all however the shameful cover up and lies by the authorities in conjunction with the gutter press to blacken the reputations of the victims is quite simply one of the most disgusting episodes ever. Fans who went to games at that time know full well it could so easily have been them crushed on a terracing also.

NAE NOOKIE
26-04-2016, 10:38 AM
A long long overdue result for the relatives of the 96 ........ It should be viewed as a national scandal that they have had to fight tooth and nail every inch of the way past deliberate establishment obstacles to get to this point.

I for one would take a lot of persuading that a blind eye was not turned by the government at the time to South Yorkshire police's culpability in the disaster because they 'owed them one' for their part in helping to crush the miners strike.

Pretty Boy
26-04-2016, 10:46 AM
About bloody time.

I wonder if this will signal the start of criminal charges being brought?

Moulin Yarns
26-04-2016, 10:57 AM
About bloody time.

I wonder if this will signal the start of criminal charges being brought?

Possibly


Crown Prosecution Service confirms it will now begin process of formally considering criminal charges over #Hillsborough (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hillsborough?src=hash)

JimBHibees
26-04-2016, 10:58 AM
About bloody time.

I wonder if this will signal the start of criminal charges being brought?

Wouldnt be so sure IMO.

Green Man
26-04-2016, 10:58 AM
Justice at last. Vindication for the families who have fought tirelessly. It's ridiculous that it's taken so long, and disgusting the behaviour on the day and ever since by the police, and I hope now that proper criminal charges are brought against those who were really responsible for the tragedy and the subsequent obstruction of justice.

Moulin Yarns
26-04-2016, 11:02 AM
Errors by police, Sheffield Wednesday and Ambulance control. Safety Certificate out of date!! Engineers did not calculate capacity of the pens, no way of knowing how many were in each pen.

A list of errors that all caused the unlawful killing of 96 football fans.

fans behaviour on the day did NOT contribute to the events that unfolded.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/hillsborough-disaster-inquests-verdicts-delivered-11240268

HUTCHYHIBBY
26-04-2016, 11:11 AM
I would imagine The FA will be held culpable too after organising the game to be played there when the safety certificate was out of date.

LustForLeith
26-04-2016, 11:15 AM
Anyone who remembers this happening will never forget it. So many mistakes made by so many people who avoided for long enough being responsible for the tragedy.

Doesn't matter who you support or where you're from but there's no denying that everybody is right behind Liverpool fans. Shouldn't be the case that you go to a football game and never come back

BroxburnHibee
26-04-2016, 11:19 AM
Possibly


Crown Prosecution Service confirms it will now begin process of formally considering criminal charges over #Hillsborough (https://twitter.com/hashtag/Hillsborough?src=hash)


Just the beginning. There will be private prosecutions brought now as well.

ronaldo7
26-04-2016, 11:24 AM
A long long overdue result for the relatives of the 96 ........ It should be viewed as a national scandal that they have had to fight tooth and nail every inch of the way past deliberate establishment obstacles to get to this point.

I for one would take a lot of persuading that a blind eye was not turned by the government at the time to South Yorkshire police's culpability in the disaster because they 'owed them one' for their part in helping to crush the miners strike.

This went right to the top of government at the time. I remember Thatcher on the pitch a couple of days after the disaster. West Midlands police are also culpable in the cover up.

Charges now need to be brought against all those who covered for each other.

hibeeron
26-04-2016, 11:25 AM
I was there with my son that day and can never forget the experience of despair at what the official stance was. Today I feel very emotionally drained and have had the weight of frustration and bitterness lifted from my shoulders, still very angry it took so long to get justice and that many of the parents never got to see this day

bighairyfaeleith
26-04-2016, 11:33 AM
Amazing effort and incredible bravery shown by the families of the 96 to finally get justice for there loved ones.

HUTCHYHIBBY
26-04-2016, 11:36 AM
I was there with my son that day and can never forget the experience of despair at what the official stance was. Today I feel very emotionally drained and have had the weight of frustration and bitterness lifted from my shoulders, still very angry it took so long to get justice and that many of the parents never got to see this day

Having entered the ground at The Leppings Lane end that day (though luckily enough not to stand in the pens where the disaster unfolded) I have to say that if Duckenfield had sealed off the tunnel that led to pens 3 & 4 prior to opening the exit gates at the turnstiles theres a decent chance this would never have happened as fans would have had to filter round to much quieter pens on either side of pens 3 or 4. From what I witnessed outside the ground with more and more fans entering a fenced in area at the turnstiles if the exit gates hadn't been opened then there was every chance of fatalities outside the ground.

HUTCHYHIBBY
26-04-2016, 11:39 AM
In the near future I think the failure to seal off the access tunnel will be found to be the biggest contributing factor to the disaster along with a lack of turnstiles at that end. Unfortunately I can't remember if their were more turnstiles available that were not utilised or if all available were in operation.

steakbake
26-04-2016, 11:48 AM
Interesting to note that this comes a day after the serving Home Secretary delivers an assault on human rights legislation that 'binds the hands of parliament' while boasting that we already have the best justice and police system in the world.

It's only taken the best part of 25 years and counting for the various fictions that were thrown together to blame the victims to be unravelled. It's damning and so desperately sad that so many who have waited to see this day happen are not around to see this vindication.

They say justice always prevails in the end, but 25 years to get to the truth and volumes of lies on behalf of the authorities speaks for itself.

green day
26-04-2016, 11:52 AM
I was there with my son that day and can never forget the experience of despair at what the official stance was. Today I feel very emotionally drained and have had the weight of frustration and bitterness lifted from my shoulders, still very angry it took so long to get justice and that many of the parents never got to see this day

I can empathise, I was there with a bunch of mates (main stand, we got tickets off Brian Rice sister who worked in the same place as us).

We had been at the same fixture the year before although nothing major happened, there were a few Liverpool fans in the Forest end, and the police were uninterested.

Seemed to me they thought the overtime readies for policing football was more important than the job?

On the day of the tragedy, for some reason they didn't bother putting a cordon up checking people had tickets for the game which led to hundreds of ticketless fans milling. That, allied with the roadworks issues meant there were loads of latecomers around the Leppings Lane end.

Yet again, the police didn't do their job, an obvious thing would have been to delay KO and announce it over the pa.

What is the most galling part of this is that the Police are supposed to be at football matches for public safety. They made kneejerk decisions that day (opening the gates without thinking that people would go straight into the middle pen) which you would expect from minimum wage G4S stewards.

They then compounded this by lying about their actions, and were backed up by the press.

I sincerely hope there are convictions, but wont hold my breath.

wookie70
26-04-2016, 12:00 PM
Hope convictions and jail sentences follow for the officers that lied and made catastrophic decisions. Delighted that the families of the 96 got the result they wanted and in a wider context also delighted that standing united can still beat the establishment.

Moulin Yarns
26-04-2016, 12:03 PM
I can empathise, I was there with a bunch of mates (main stand, we got tickets off Brian Rice sister who worked in the same place as us).

We had been at the same fixture the year before although nothing major happened, there were a few Liverpool fans in the Forest end, and the police were uninterested.

Seemed to me they thought the overtime readies for policing football was more important than the job?

On the day of the tragedy, for some reason they didn't bother putting a cordon up checking people had tickets for the game which led to hundreds of ticketless fans milling. That, allied with the roadworks issues meant there were loads of latecomers around the Leppings Lane end.

Yet again, the police didn't do their job, an obvious thing would have been to delay KO and announce it over the pa.

What is the most galling part of this is that the Police are supposed to be at football matches for public safety. They made kneejerk decisions that day (opening the gates without thinking that people would go straight into the middle pen) which you would expect from minimum wage G4S stewards.

They then compounded this by lying about their actions, and were backed up by the press.

I sincerely hope there are convictions, but wont hold my breath.

The bit in bold, was down to Sheffield Wednesday according to the verdicts.


11) Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday and its staff on April 15, 1989, which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?




The jury answered NO.

They were asked if any error or omission MAY have contributed or caused the dangerous situation.

They answered YES.

The jury said: “Club officials were aware of the huge numbers of fans still outside the LL turnstiles at 2.40pm. They should have requested a delayed kick off at this point.

Scouse Hibee
26-04-2016, 12:27 PM
Finally after 27 years and stil raw, every time I see coverage or listen to accounts of those who lost loved ones I fight back the tears and remember the day I witnessed my fellow supporters perish. JFT96.

Killiehibbie
26-04-2016, 12:35 PM
Ridiculous that it has taken so long to reach this stage. Jail time for those responsible and even more time for the cover up might go some way to ease the pain of the families.

green day
26-04-2016, 12:49 PM
The bit in bold, was down to Sheffield Wednesday according to the verdicts.

I appreciate it says that, but Duckenfield and his right hand man decided at about 2.30/2.40 not to delay the KO despite what was unfolding outside.

The police commander has the ultimate say.

Baader
26-04-2016, 01:57 PM
A disgusting cover up from the beginning of the tragic events.

A police commander who lied about proceedings and deceived inquiries, a Tory Press secretary deriding innocent victims as drunken yobs, a so-called newspaper that published 'The Truth' when all along it was complete lies designed to help those in power and pin the blame on football fans who were treated like criminals for supporting their team.

The families now have justice after a disgracefully long wait. I hope the perpetrators and the ones complicit in this appalling cover up get justice too - in this case read jail.

Jonnyboy
26-04-2016, 02:15 PM
Like many, I'm sure, I watched those horrible events unfold and like many, I shed tears. Today's verdict and the rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone brought the tears back again.

I sincerely hope that those responsible are brought to justice.

I also hope that the families will now sue the Sun and others including that stain on humanity, Kelvin Mackenzie.

21.05.2016
26-04-2016, 02:32 PM
The Sun the only newspaper to not report on the events of today as the verdicts were emerging.

Vile institution who should be hanging their heads in shame. The fact they still employ that lying, arrogant, self-righteous **** Kelvin MacKenzie is evidence enough that they are utter ****.

21.05.2016
26-04-2016, 02:35 PM
Like many, I'm sure, I watched those horrible events unfold and like many, I shed tears. Today's verdict and the rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone brought the tears back again.

I sincerely hope that those responsible are brought to justice.

I also hope that the families will now sue the Sun and others including that stain on humanity, Kelvin Mackenzie.

:agree:

How that ******* still has the brass neck and the arrogance to still be showing his face on television etc is unreal.

Moulin Yarns
26-04-2016, 02:52 PM
The Sun the only newspaper to not report on the events of today as the verdicts were emerging.

Vile institution who should be hanging their heads in shame. The fact they still employ that lying, arrogant, self-righteous **** Kelvin MacKenzie is evidence enough that they are utter ****.

Here is a bit about the criminal investigations, where the media and their sources are being looked into


https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/uk/hillsborough-two-major-criminal-investigations-advanced-stage/

--------
26-04-2016, 02:53 PM
Like many, I'm sure, I watched those horrible events unfold and like many, I shed tears. Today's verdict and the rendition of You'll Never Walk Alone brought the tears back again.

I sincerely hope that those responsible are brought to justice.

I also hope that the families will now sue the Sun and others including that stain on humanity, Kelvin Mackenzie.


:agree: This is the reality of the country we live in, John. I want to see prosecutions for perjury, for perverting the course of justice, for manslaughter, and like you I want to see the people and bodies responsible - the police, the FA, the Sun, Sheffield Wednesday FC, whoever - sued and made to face their responsibilities.

I've just gone down the list of the dead on the link JimB provided - http://hillsborough.liverpoolecho.co.uk/p/index.html. A cross-section of ordinary folk who aren't 'ordinary' folk, whom their loved ones have had to defend against the slander of lying policemen, timeserving politicians and 'journalists' who wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the bum.

But sadly, I'm not going to hold my breath. I can hear the chorus now - the 'passage of time', the 'uncertainty of people's memory at such a late date', the unavailability of the security tapes from the stadium cameras - put in a 'safe place' but no one can remember exactly where - and after all, do we really want to rake it all up all over again? Put it into the mouth of Sir Humphrey Appelby and I'm sure you'll get the flavour.

They were, after all, only football fans, and every policeman, politician and journalist knows that beneath the innocent veneer of the football fan lurks the evil reality of the knife-wielding drunken casual. Cameron may be expressing sympathy now, but if you could see what he really thinks ....

I thought Desmond Murnaghan did very well, btw.

--------
26-04-2016, 03:03 PM
From the jury's written verdict -

6. Unlawful killing: Are you satisfied, so that you are sure, that those who died in the disaster were unlawfully killed? To answer 'yes' to this question, the jurors must be sure of the following:


Firstly, that Ch Supt David Duckenfield owed a duty of care to the 96 who died
Secondly, that he was in breach of that duty of care
Thirdly, that the breach of Mr Duckenfield's duty of care caused the deaths
Finally, the jury must be sure that the breach which caused the deaths amounted to "gross negligence."

Jury's answer: Yes

That's a verdict of unlawful killing against a named individual - Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield. I'm not sure the CPS have a lot of room NOT to charge him, at least with manslaughter ...

HUTCHYHIBBY
26-04-2016, 03:33 PM
The doctor from London on Sky News who attended the game with his kids/nephew provided a very powerful statement re the happenings of the day at about 1330 today, it was very moving stuff and showed what the families were up against before todays verdict was returned. I imagine it'll be shown throughout the day, well worth a watch/listen.

Ronniekirk
26-04-2016, 04:08 PM
I just can't understand why it's taken this long - I hope it helps the families in some way.

I remember the day well.

Because people covered up and some lied and distorted events to save their own careers
The Families had to fight the whole system and refused to give up
Those covering up hopped the clamour and outrage would dissipate with time but the movement and outrage was channelled into Justice and finally their efforts have been rewarded

--------
26-04-2016, 05:11 PM
Because people covered up and some lied and distorted events to save their own careers
The Families had to fight the whole system and refused to give up
Those covering up hopped the clamour and outrage would dissipate with time but the movement and outrage was channelled into Justice and finally their efforts have been rewarded


Polis committing perjury?

Shurely shome mishtake here? :devil:

hibsbollah
26-04-2016, 05:11 PM
:agree: This is the reality of the country we live in, John. I want to see prosecutions for perjury, for perverting the course of justice, for manslaughter, and like you I want to see the people and bodies responsible - the police, the FA, the Sun, Sheffield Wednesday FC, whoever - sued and made to face their responsibilities.

I've just gone down the list of the dead on the link JimB provided - http://hillsborough.liverpoolecho.co.uk/p/index.html. A cross-section of ordinary folk who aren't 'ordinary' folk, whom their loved ones have had to defend against the slander of lying policemen, timeserving politicians and 'journalists' who wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the bum.

But sadly, I'm not going to hold my breath. I can hear the chorus now - the 'passage of time', the 'uncertainty of people's memory at such a late date', the unavailability of the security tapes from the stadium cameras - put in a 'safe place' but no one can remember exactly where - and after all, do we really want to rake it all up all over again? Put it into the mouth of Sir Humphrey Appelby and I'm sure you'll get the flavour.

They were, after all, only football fans, and every policeman, politician and journalist knows that beneath the innocent veneer of the football fan lurks the evil reality of the knife-wielding drunken casual. Cameron may be expressing sympathy now, but if you could see what he really thinks ....

I thought Desmond Murnaghan did very well, btw.


:agree:

i read a university of Chester report in 1995 which laid out precisely the findings today. This is when the drunken fans defence was seen as the consensus. The Truth has been out there for over twenty years, and I fear if Dunkenfield and others were still alive there'd be more obstruction, The Sun and Boris Johnson would still be spouting their lies and there would still be no justice. Orgreave then and Rotherham now show that nothing much has changed in policing in that part of the world, and that certain establishment figures have a lot of power over policing and the press.

Hibs Class
26-04-2016, 05:20 PM
:agree:

i read a university of Chester report in 1995 which laid out precisely the findings today. This is when the drunken fans defence was seen as the consensus. The Truth has been out there for over twenty years, and I fear if Dunkenfield and others were still alive there'd be more obstruction, The Sun and Boris Johnson would still be spouting their lies and there would still be no justice. Orgreave then and Rotherham now show that nothing much has changed in policing in that part of the world, and that certain establishment figures have a lot of power over policing and the press.

Pretty sure Duckenfield is still alive, and whilst he lied at the original inquests he admitted those lies at this inquest. He has also already been interviewed under caution but i havent heard whether that is for his actions on the day, his subsequent lies including perjury, or both.

hibsdaft
26-04-2016, 05:30 PM
It would be a great gesture for the club to play You'll Never Walk Alone tonight. Anyone know how to get a message to our DJ?

emerald green
26-04-2016, 05:33 PM
Trevor Hicks, who lost his teenage daughters Vicki and Sarah, is quoted that "he could now properly grieve". 27 years later. Cannot imagine that.

There are lots of people who should be more than ashamed today.

--------
26-04-2016, 05:34 PM
It would be a great gesture for the club to play You'll Never Walk Alone tonight. Anyone know how to get a message to our DJ?


The original game lasted 6 minutes IIRC.

Everyone up and applauding on the 6 minute mark?

telfordhibby
26-04-2016, 05:47 PM
27 years too late the establishment from the tory government at the time the police and the so called editor of the sun news paper found out for what they are.God bless the 96 and the wonderful relatives who fought for todays verdict.

Pretty Boy
26-04-2016, 05:49 PM
I would argue you can almost forgive incompetence, you can even almost forgive a wee bit of cutting corners here and there. The Police lost control and in the heat of the moment made a bad decision compounded by further bad decisions. A safety certificate wasn't up to date and the decision to play the game there (especially given previous 'near misses) was a poor one. Whilst those responsible should have been held to account you can almost accept it as mistakes or worse as corruption that ended with a tragedy that couldn't have been foreseen.

What I don't think can ever be forgiven is the cover up. Not only a cover up but one that had an associated smear campaign against the deceased, the injured and thousands of other ordinary punters who attended a football match. A cover up that was, in part, ideologically motivated and went all the way to the very top. It will be interesting to see if the likes of Bernard Ingrham, Kelvin McKenzie et al will retract their previously expressed views. The 80s saw Police forces across the country that were primed to be partisan. They had to be. The miners strikes saw to that, of course another shameful episode at Orgreave is testament to that view.

I really don't care how old people are now or how sorry they are or what words of reconciliation they throw out. The book should be thrown at each and every person responsible who is still fit to stand trial. Whatever charges are relevant should be brought.

hibsbollah
26-04-2016, 05:59 PM
Pretty sure Duckenfield is still alive, and whilst he lied at the original inquests he admitted those lies at this inquest. He has also already been interviewed under caution but i havent heard whether that is for his actions on the day, his subsequent lies including perjury, or both.

Apologies, I must have read that he'd retired and processed it as died. I'm getting on a bit:greengrin

interesting angle on the cover up here. The masons mentioned specifically by the PCC.

https://www.rt.com/uk/341012-freemasons-propaganda-police-corruption/

emerald green
26-04-2016, 05:59 PM
Tweet from Irvine Welsh:

"Hillsborough about more than establishment cover up of tragic deaths. Also about a state-led cultural vilification of a city and its people." :agree:

hibsbollah
26-04-2016, 06:04 PM
Tweet from Irvine Welsh:

"Hillsborough about more than establishment cover up of tragic deaths. Also about a state-led cultural vilification of a city and its people." :agree:

Quite. As the current London mayor said in 2004



"Boris Johnson in Spectator, 2004...'Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune - its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union - and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident.'

Sergey
26-04-2016, 06:04 PM
Radio 5 Live have just put together a compilation of how the day unfolded (it was covered by John Inverdale and Peter Jones on Radio 2) and I'm not ashamed to admit that it brought a tear to my eye. It was a broadcast that would have done Marconi proud and I doubt I've heard a more moving piece of radio. It really is worth listening to on iPlayer.

I now just hope that this story is finally laid to rest and it doesn't get trotted out like the Bloody Sunday murders. We all knew for some time what happened, who was culpable, the cover-ups etc. Please just let it be.

Oscar T Grouch
26-04-2016, 06:11 PM
I would argue you can almost forgive incompetence, you can even almost forgive a wee bit of cutting corners here and there. The Police lost control and in the heat of the moment made a bad decision compounded by further bad decisions. A safety certificate wasn't up to date and the decision to play the game there (especially given previous 'near misses) was a poor one. Whilst those responsible should have been held to account you can almost accept it as mistakes or worse as corruption that ended with a tragedy that couldn't have been foreseen.

What I don't think can ever be forgiven is the cover up. Not only a cover up but one that had an associated smear campaign against the deceased, the injured and thousands of other ordinary punters who attended a football match. A cover up that was, in part, ideologically motivated and went all the way to the very top. It will be interesting to see if the likes of Bernard Ingrham, Kelvin McKenzie et al will retract their previously expressed views. The 80s saw Police forces across the country that were primed to be partisan. They had to be. The miners strikes saw to that, of course another shameful episode at Orgreave is testament to that view.

I really don't care how old people are now or how sorry they are or what words of reconciliation they throw out. The book should be thrown at each and every person responsible who is still fit to stand trial. Whatever charges are relevant should be brought.

Heres your answer on this one. I dislike Ingham so much.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sir-bernard-ingham-who-labelled-7837120

emerald green
26-04-2016, 06:15 PM
Quite. As the current London mayor said in 2004



"Boris Johnson in Spectator, 2004...'Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune - its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union - and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident.'



How anyone could ever defend the smears put out after the disaster at Hillsborough by Murdoch's rag is beyond me. Boris Johnson. Why anyone ever listens to the fat buffoon is a mystery to me. Any word from him today? Or is he hiding?

I wonder how those responsible for the Sun's coverage of the Hillsborough disaster feel today? The Sun didn't "hint" at anything. They blamed the Liverpool fans. Shameful.

Hibernia&Alba
26-04-2016, 06:25 PM
A great day for the courage and relentless determination to get the truth by the families of the 96. Everybody who claims to value justice should be proud of them. Equally, anyone who was involved in 27 years of cover up and fabrication will, hopefully, also get their just desserts. So many people from the police, the media and politics should now be demonstrating contrition and humility for their part, however large or small, in compounding the suffering of the bereaved.

McD
26-04-2016, 06:42 PM
finally those poor 96 and their tormented families can hopefully find some peace.

I agree that those responsible should be held to account, and the likes of MacKenzie be made to answer for their actions.

Bostonhibby
26-04-2016, 08:26 PM
finally those poor 96 and their tormented families can hopefully find some peace.

I agree that those responsible should be held to account, and the likes of MacKenzie be made to answer for their actions.

:agree: McKenzie wasn't found wanting for a quick statement way back then, hopefully he will be out as quick with his spin on the story this time as well. Won't be holding my breath. Quite a few politicians from the time have a lot to answer for as well.

The families dignity and persistence against the odds and the establishment was quite incredible. I heard a report on the radio saying that at a remembrance event some Everton fans left a card saying that they they had taken on the wrong city, so it seems.

Hibtastic
26-04-2016, 08:46 PM
http://youtu.be/5y5rwu4S-1s

Here is the shameful Kelvin Mackenzie not so talkative now! What a knob!

Bad Martini
26-04-2016, 10:51 PM
27 years to officially have confirmed what all decent minded people knew, particularly those who either knew people there/people affected and to a lesser degree, those who seen it all unfold live on the BBC.

The polis, the establishment and the cover up (for almost three ****ing DECADES) was the ONLY criminality that occurred on the day and thereafter.

All the lies and bollocks the sun printed was and is beneath contempt. ****s and nothing more. Not worthy of the press or attention.

The facts are the facts. I now hope the criminal proceedings being progressed as duly fired at the *******s responsible. Only then, will justice have been done.

JFT96.

Baldy Foghorn
27-04-2016, 11:57 AM
A Police and Government cover up, similar to Miners, Yewtree etc etc......Stinks to high heaven.

Justice finally, but shows how corrupt "Great Britain" is........

FranckSuzy
27-04-2016, 12:09 PM
LBC's James O'Brien on Kelvin MacKenzie:

16444

JimBHibees
27-04-2016, 12:26 PM
Quite. As the current London mayor said in 2004



"Boris Johnson in Spectator, 2004...'Liverpool is a handsome city with a tribal sense of community. A combination of economic misfortune - its docks were, fundamentally, on the wrong side of England when Britain entered what is now the European Union - and an excessive predilection for welfarism have created a peculiar, and deeply unattractive, psyche among many Liverpudlians. They see themselves whenever possible as victims, and resent their victim status; yet at the same time they wallow in it. Part of this flawed psychological state is that they cannot accept that they might have made any contribution to their misfortunes, but seek rather to blame someone else for it, thereby deepening their sense of shared tribal grievance against the rest of society. The deaths of more than 50 Liverpool football supporters at Hillsborough in 1989 was undeniably a greater tragedy than the single death, however horrible, of Mr Bigley; but that is no excuse for Liverpool's failure to acknowledge, even to this day, the part played in the disaster by drunken fans at the back of the crowd who mindlessly tried to fight their way into the ground that Saturday afternoon. The police became a convenient scapegoat, and the Sun newspaper a whipping-boy for daring, albeit in a tasteless fashion, to hint at the wider causes of the incident.'



Why does he say more than 50 rather than 96?

Bostonhibby
27-04-2016, 12:40 PM
Why does he say more than 50 rather than 96?
Could be because he is a generaliser who also waffles and does even serious matters "on the hoof"?

Alternatively he's part of an establishment still trying to reduce and deflect the scale of it's monstrous conduct?

Or it could be because he's an erse?

Betty Boop
27-04-2016, 12:42 PM
Andy Burnham gave an excellent speech to the House after PMQs today.

JimBHibees
27-04-2016, 12:44 PM
A Police and Government cover up, similar to Miners, Yewtree etc etc......Stinks to high heaven.

Justice finally, but shows how corrupt "Great Britain" is........

Any country that calls itself Great obviously isnt. Some people in this country are only too happy to try and slag off other countries and their legal institutions and cultures yet should look closer to home.

JimBHibees
27-04-2016, 12:45 PM
Could be because he is a generaliser who also waffles and does even serious matters "on the hoof"?

Alternatively he's part of an establishment still trying to reduce and deflect the scale of it's monstrous conduct?

Or it could be because he's an erse?

Probably all three.

bernz
27-04-2016, 12:45 PM
Why does he say more than 50 rather than 96?

I would imagine it's because he knows very little about it other than the spin he was told to put on it.

Pretty Boy
27-04-2016, 12:51 PM
As an aside, and I have no idea if it's his thing or not, but if we persist with an antiquated honours system in this country isn't it about time Kenny Dalglish was knighted?

Not only is he arguably the greatest footballer Scotland has ever produced, his quiet dignity and strength both at the time of and in the years after Hillsborough are admirable. You can see even now when he speaks about it how close it came to breaking him. A quick scan of any Liverpool forum shows he is held in the highest regard, obviously for footballing reasons but for far more than that.

Killiehibbie
27-04-2016, 12:59 PM
As an aside, and I have no idea if it's his thing or not, but if we persist with an antiquated honours system in this country isn't it about time Kenny Dalglish was knighted?

Not only is he arguably the greatest footballer Scotland has ever produced, his quiet dignity and strength both at the time of and in the years after Hillsborough are admirable. You can see even now when he speaks about it how close it came to breaking him. A quick scan of any Liverpool forum shows he is held in the highest regard, obviously for footballing reasons but for far more than that.
I would hope he'd tell them to ram it.

Future17
27-04-2016, 01:13 PM
As an aside, and I have no idea if it's his thing or not, but if we persist with an antiquated honours system in this country isn't it about time Kenny Dalglish was knighted?

Not only is he arguably the greatest footballer Scotland has ever produced, his quiet dignity and strength both at the time of and in the years after Hillsborough are admirable. You can see even now when he speaks about it how close it came to breaking him. A quick scan of any Liverpool forum shows he is held in the highest regard, obviously for footballing reasons but for far more than that.

Maybe they've already approached him.


I would hope he'd tell them to ram it.

Maybe he already has.

Killiehibbie
27-04-2016, 01:14 PM
Maybe they've already approached him.



Maybe he already has.Mibbie aye, mibbie naw.

Scouse Hibee
27-04-2016, 03:02 PM
It doesn't matter one bit about a knighthood. KING KENNY will always be regarded as the KING by Liverppool supportets and their families, the man is a legend on and off the pitch.

emerald green
27-04-2016, 05:26 PM
Andy Burnham gave an excellent speech to the House after PMQs today.

:agree: IMHO Andy Burnham takes a lot of credit for his work in helping to finally get justice for those who lost their lives in that terrible disaster, and for their families.

21.05.2016
27-04-2016, 05:27 PM
It doesn't matter one bit about a knighthood. KING KENNY will always be regarded as the KING by Liverppool supportets and their families, the man is a legend on and off the pitch.

:agree:

hibsbollah
27-04-2016, 05:41 PM
Front page news in every paper in Britain. Except the Sun where it was relegated to page 8, and The Times, also owned by Murdoch.

Astonishing.

21.05.2016
27-04-2016, 06:06 PM
Front page news in every paper in Britain. Except the Sun where it was relegated to page 8, and The Times, also owned by Murdoch.

Astonishing.

**** institution. The truth and justice relegated to page 8 but when it came to publishing disgusting lies it was a front page spread.

Bostonhibby
27-04-2016, 06:14 PM
The only way to make any impression on Murdoch is by boycotting all his products, sky included

Smartie
27-04-2016, 06:16 PM
Anyone know what the helicopter was doing that they kept referring to at the vigil?

Hibs Class
27-04-2016, 06:19 PM
David Cameron seemed pretty astonished that the Labour MP who made an offensive anti semitic post on Facebook hadn't been suspended from the party. Wonder if he'll be equally surprised when he finds out that that Boris johnson hasn't been suspended for his comments about Liverpool.

Eyrie
27-04-2016, 06:33 PM
David Cameron seemed pretty astonished that the Labour MP who made an offensive anti semitic post on Facebook hadn't been suspended from the party. Wonder if he'll be equally surprised when he finds out that that Boris johnson hasn't been suspended for his comments about Liverpool.

You'll never get consistency from a politician. Both should have been dealt with properly, but Johnson got away with it by turning his "apology" into yet another personal publicity stunt.

hibsbollah
27-04-2016, 06:40 PM
**** institution. The truth and justice relegated to page 8 but when it came to publishing disgusting lies it was a front page spread.

They actually had a chance to redeem themselves yesterday if they had a 'mea culpa' editorial, saying sorry and sacking McKenzie. They might even have got some readership back. But they chose to stick up a middle finger at everyone instead.

Betty Boop
27-04-2016, 06:42 PM
:agree: IMHO Andy Burnham takes a lot of credit for his work in helping to finally get justice for those who lost their lives in that terrible disaster, and for their families.

Yes he does. Kenny Dalglish reading 'Footprints' at the Memorial Service was so emotional made me cry, and I'm not religious. At the end he said 'In other words You Will Never Walk Alone'.

Yorkshire HFC
27-04-2016, 07:07 PM
Informative programme on 5Live now - grim listening

ScottB
27-04-2016, 07:09 PM
They actually had a chance to redeem themselves yesterday if they had a 'mea culpa' editorial, saying sorry and sacking McKenzie. They might even have got some readership back. But they chose to stick up a middle finger at everyone instead.

Caught an interview with him last night where he suggested he / they were victims of the police's lies too in what they reported.

The guy is a total waste of skin, not just for this, but so many other things too!

jgl07
27-04-2016, 11:18 PM
The Hillsborough disaster was a combination of a number of factors including supporters arriving late for the match (it always happened back then), the terrible state of the stadium, the criminal incompetance of the police, and maybe a few fans had a drink too many.

However what turned a potential disaster into a real one was the fences. I was in a few potential problems in the 1960xs, the worst of which was at Filbert Street Leicester. We were able to get over the wall and sit on the running track for the rest of the match after a crush developed. Had there been fences, there would have been deaths that day.

Who was responsible for treating football fans like animals by putting up fences? It was the then Government. I hold Thatcher personally responsible and cabinet Goverment was not operating at the time because none of the feeble idiots in the cabinet would stand up to her.

I would also like to see Rupert Murdoch, Kelvin McKenzie, and South Yorkshire Police indicted for criminal conspiracy in their botched attempt to cover up the police's role in the events.

hibsbollah
28-04-2016, 06:44 AM
The Hillsborough disaster was a combination of a number of factors including supporters arriving late for the match (it always happened back then), the terrible state of the stadium, the criminal incompetance of the police, and maybe a few fans had a drink too many.

However what turned a potential disaster into a real one was the fences. I was in a few potential problems in the 1960xs, the worst of which was at Filbert Street Leicester. We were able to get over the wall and sit on the running track for the rest of the match after a crush developed. Had there been fences, there would have been deaths that day.

.

The jury found yesterday that 'fans having a drink too many' had NO bearing on what happened. It's just a lie that has seeped into public consciousness by repetition.

SouthMoroccoStu
28-04-2016, 08:21 AM
Shared from facebook

16445

jgl07
28-04-2016, 10:09 AM
The jury found yesterday that 'fans having a drink too many' had NO bearing on what happened. It's just a lie that has seeped into public consciousness by repetition.
I never said it was a major contributory factor but there were a chain of events. I know that for some Liverpool fans are beyond criticism but it wasn't that long after Heysel!

I attended loads of semi-finals at Hillsborough, Villa Park, Old Trafford and Maine Road. If none of those at Hillsborough had a drink or two it would have been a first. People arriving late was a factor. In most cases when I arrived late for a match it was because we spent too much time in the pub.

The police should have acted by ordering the match to be delayed to give time for everyone to get in. The ground should have had more turnstiles., etc etc.

--------
28-04-2016, 10:16 AM
Regarding "truth", "drink-fuelled yobs", Rupert Murdoch and his mini-me Mckenzie ....

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/watch-presenter-tears-cornered-rat-11251900#ICID=sharebar_twitter (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/watch-presenter-tears-cornered-rat-11251900#ICID=sharebar_twitter)

I don't know if anyone's put this up already - apologies if they have - but this guy says it all.

Though personally, I think he's being a bit unfair to cornered rats .....

Steve-O
28-04-2016, 10:26 AM
I never said it was a major contributory factor but there were a chain of events. I know that for some Liverpool fans are beyond criticism but it wasn't that long after Heysel!

I attended loads of semi-finals at Hillsborough, Villa Park, Old Trafford and Maine Road. If none of those at Hillsborough had a drink or two it would have been a first. People arriving late was a factor. In most cases when I arrived late for a match it was because we spent too much time in the pub.

The police should have acted by ordering the match to be delayed to give time for everyone to get in. The ground should have had more turnstiles., etc etc.

Agree somewhat on that point. I think anyone who has been to a semi final anywhere will know that's highly unlikely to have been the case that some people would be a bit worse for wear. Still, that's not to say, at all, that some fans being a bit drunk caused this, but it may have had some effect on the decision making of some individuals on the day in terms of what time they were going to head to the ground, and where they went on arrival. But, it's very clear from all the evidence that the crushing was happening before the gate was opened, and the signage to the other side pens was woefully inadequate - people who didn't know the ground would not have even known there was another way in as far as I can make out.

BroxburnHibee
28-04-2016, 10:30 AM
Informative programme on 5Live now - grim listening

I just listened to one presented by Kenny Dalglish's daughter but not sure if it's the same one you're referring too.

Excellent programme with some horrific details. I'd recommend listening to it.

--------
28-04-2016, 11:10 AM
The jury found yesterday that 'fans having a drink too many' had NO bearing on what happened. It's just a lie that has seeped into public consciousness by repetition.


From the time I went to University in 1967 I never attended a football match at ER or anywhere else without visiting the Students' Union or another pub first. A couple of pints, a pie and maybe a pickled egg.

Most supporters at that time would do the same. This was something the police (presumably) factored into their calculations and plans for the match - they'd have been stupid if they hadn't.

And by the way - I have never in my life caused trouble at a football match - regardless of whether I had been to the pub beforehand or not.

When Bernard Ingham referred to the Hillsborough dead as "drink-fuelled yob"s he was presumably, as a friend and confidant of the Prime Minister, her cabinet ministers, and the rest of the Tory parliamentary party, speaking with full knowledge and experience of "drink-fuelled yobs" and the trouble they can cause. I'd be surprised if he weren't one himself from time to time. And among those "yobs" he was presumably including the young lassie who had just finished her first year at Liverpool University (and her younger sister), the Sunday School teacher, and the trainee speech therapist who had just finished her course and was intending to put in her dissertation on the Monday morning after the game. Violent casuals to a man - sorry, woman - sorry, girl.

The problem at Hillsborough wasn't that fans turned up having had a drink or two, or even a drink too many. It was that the match commander failed to implement appropriate and adequate arrangements to ensure that the fans were able to enter the stadium safely. He allowed a crush to develop, the inevitable consequence of which was the deaths of 96 people. Anyone of my generation who has been in a football crowd where a crush has developed (I've been in quite a few) knows that once the crowd has reached a certain point of compression, there's not a lot anyone can do to sort things out. The trick is to prevent the crush from developing. Duckenfield's "arrangements" seem to have been calculated to produce just the conditions at the Leppings Lane turnstiles that would lead to a lethal compression of the crowd. When the compression built up, he panicked and opened on gate without closing the other gate that MIGHT just have saved people's lives - though by that time his incompetence had made it certain that there would be serious injuries and probably deaths among the supporters that afternoon.

He then compounded his offences by failing to send officers to the assistance of those who were having the life squeezed out of them at the front of that terrace - refusal to open gates in the fence, police officers using batons to stop people saving themselves and others by climbing over that fence, no proper paramedical assistance and a perverse determination to interpret what was happening as hooliganism rather than a human tragedy. And then he lied about his actions, and collaborated in the lies told by the force of which he was a member, and assisted in the lies spread by Mackenzie, Ingham, the red-top press, the "quality" press, the wider media to denigrate the characters of the dead.

The coroner - acting under police instructions - took blood from a 10-year-old boy to test it for alcohol. Even-handed justice, hm? I wonder how many of the police had had a wee drink before the game?

hibsbollah
28-04-2016, 12:56 PM
Spot on Doddie.

hibsbollah
28-04-2016, 01:00 PM
Agree that particular point is a bit troubling. The picture that's being painted is almost of all fans turning up completely sober in an orderly manner. I think anyone who has been to a semi final anywhere will know that's highly unlikely to have been the case. Still, that's not to say, at all, that some fans being a bit drunk caused this, but it may have had some effect on the decision making of some individuals on the day.

Well the jury would disagree with you. Read their summation.

its of course obvious that some of the dead fans had a drink before the game. As a lot of us do. The point is, that is totally irrelevant to what followed.

poolman
28-04-2016, 01:15 PM
I don't think " justice " has quite been done yet

Not until those responsible are charged and put on trial

Starting with match commander David Duckenfield who has lied constantly since day one

Bad Martini
28-04-2016, 01:25 PM
It doesn't matter one bit about a knighthood. KING KENNY will always be regarded as the KING by Liverppool supportets and their families, the man is a legend on and off the pitch.

:agree:

The King is the King and long live the King. Nobody has been like him and I include Shankly and Paisley in that. It goes beyond football and managerial success. It goes beyond scoring the winner in the European Cup Final or winning the double. In fact, it goes beyond football at all; the man loves the club as the most ardent, steadfast supporter does. You cant fake that. This is why you cannot replicate it. I like Klopp. I've liked a lot of Liverpool managers down the years and I think there can be no question Shankly built it and Paisley used and built on that (and then some).

The campaign to have him knighted is for the greater public at large in a world where titles bestowed by an unelected head of state carry weight with a lot of people in this country. To the folk that matter to the King, he needs no further recognition. And that will never change. There aren't too many people who could and would have done what he done during the dark days of 1989 and the years since. And that matters to people.

Kenny Dalglish; the greatest of them all for all the reasons noted above and more besides.

JimBHibees
28-04-2016, 01:28 PM
Agree that particular point is a bit troubling. The picture that's being painted is almost of all fans turning up completely sober in an orderly manner. I think anyone who has been to a semi final anywhere will know that's highly unlikely to have been the case. Still, that's not to say, at all, that some fans being a bit drunk caused this, but it may have had some effect on the decision making of some individuals on the day.

People will have had a drink however the authorities are paid to provide a safe environment for fans both getting in and within the ground. On both counts they criminally failed to do so resulting in 96 innocent deaths. No one is saying some fans may not have acted like angels on the day a bit like when Hibs go to Hampden however to continue to perpetuate that there were somehow part of the problem is a total nonsense and hugely unfair as has been proven in this 2 year long inquest..

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-04-2016, 03:10 PM
Agree that particular point is a bit troubling. The picture that's being painted is almost of all fans turning up completely sober in an orderly manner. I think anyone who has been to a semi final anywhere will know that's highly unlikely to have been the case. Still, that's not to say, at all, that some fans being a bit drunk caused this, but it may have had some effect on the decision making of some individuals on the day.

For someone like yourself who is such a strong advocate for rehab for folk that have actually been found guilty of breaking the law to be going out of his way to argue that bevvy WAS a contributing factor when the inquest found otherwise seems a tad odd to me.

hibsdaft
28-04-2016, 03:15 PM
There are facts that confirm drink wasn't a factor, thanks to the SYP's perverse blood tests of the dead. The majority of the dead had no trace of alcohol in their system. The majority of the remainder had standard levels of alcohol associated with attendance at such a social/ sporting event.

hibsdaft
28-04-2016, 03:21 PM
Why does he say more than 50 rather than 96?

Quite simply, he couldn't be bothered checking.

--------
28-04-2016, 03:58 PM
The jury found yesterday that 'fans having a drink too many' had NO bearing on what happened. It's just a lie that has seeped into public consciousness by repetition.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (A quote from the ideological father-figure for every S*n journalist ....)



Quite simply, he couldn't be bothered checking.

He knows. It's just another insult.

He's letting his pals in the Tory Party know that he doesn't count "ordinary" people as of any importance - 50, 70, 80, 90, 96? Who cares?

Boris isn't a buffoon, genial or otherwise - he's a very nasty piece of work indeed.

ben johnson
28-04-2016, 04:38 PM
The smear campaign was in full swing when MacKenzie decided on the headline for that day. He wanted You **** but it went out as The Truth. A truly awful human being but they had power then and indeed felt they were untouchable. That it's taken so long to get here shows how corrupt the whole stinking system really is.

Ricky Bobby
28-04-2016, 04:54 PM
I would recommend Hillsborough The Truth by Phil Scraton. It is a very difficult read, but it gives an accurate account of what went on that day and in the days after the disaster. Some of the facts how the whole thing was handled by South Yorkshire Police from start to finish are absolutely mind blowing and shameful.
Well done to the families for not giving up the fight and pursuing the truth and justice. Now the legal system has to step up and pursue convictions on those responsible.

Bad Martini
28-04-2016, 06:58 PM
Well the jury would disagree with you. Read their summation.

its of course obvious that some of the dead fans had a drink before the game. As a lot of us do. The point is, that is totally irrelevant to what followed.

:agree:

Correct.

As a general point to all who suggest alcohol had any bearing on this (and putting aside the inquest for two YEARS and the jury's verdict, all of which exonerates the fans of any wrong doing), consider that 40% of the victims were children or teenagers (with the youngest victim being just 10 years old).

96 people were killed (94 on the day) many outright and others slowly (and invariably painfully for all concerned) in hospital beds on machines with the last victim on a life support machine in a persistent vegetative state for nearly four years. 766 other people were injured to lesser degrees, many of whom however still have the wounds (physical and physcological) to prove it.

This wasn't some piss up that went wrong. This wasn't down to the punters (Whether they had a drink or not). Not even close. It was a monumental (and as has been proven) criminal **** up by the police. It was dealt with very poorly by the ambulance service thereafter...........and then they all covered it up for 27 years, with every government following the *******s in charge at the time doing their best to sweep it under the carpet.

Truth is out.

Now let's see some of that much fabled british justice. 96 fitba fans dead, attending a game of fitba. 38 were under the age of 20 and 90+% were under the age of 50. Staggering to consider such a thing could happen in this apparent civilised country, just 27 years ago.

ben johnson
28-04-2016, 08:14 PM
Staggering to think they called the police dogs to attend before they thought of calling the ambulance service. Gives an indication of the mindset of a number of policeman that day. A Liverpool fan talked of managing to get up out of the crush on to a fence. A policeman promptly pushed him back into the hell he had just escaped.

JimBHibees
28-04-2016, 08:24 PM
:agree:

Correct.

As a general point to all who suggest alcohol had any bearing on this (and putting aside the inquest for two YEARS and the jury's verdict, all of which exonerates the fans of any wrong doing), consider that 40% of the victims were children or teenagers (with the youngest victim being just 10 years old).

96 people were killed (94 on the day) many outright and others slowly (and invariably painfully for all concerned) in hospital beds on machines with the last victim on a life support machine in a persistent vegetative state for nearly four years. 766 other people were injured to lesser degrees, many of whom however still have the wounds (physical and physcological) to prove it.

This wasn't some piss up that went wrong. This wasn't down to the punters (Whether they had a drink or not). Not even close. It was a monumental (and as has been proven) criminal **** up by the police. It was dealt with very poorly by the ambulance service thereafter...........and then they all covered it up for 27 years, with every government following the *******s in charge at the time doing their best to sweep it under the carpet.

Truth is out.

Now let's see some of that much fabled british justice. 96 fitba fans dead, attending a game of fitba. 38 were under the age of 20 and 90+% were under the age of 50. Staggering to consider such a thing could happen in this apparent civilised country, just 27 years ago.

Including blood tests on all yes even the 10 year old Stevie G's cousin of the victims to determine the alcohol levels. Quite incredible and disgusting. The fact you haven't really heard about the readings kind of suggests they didn't get the answer they hoped for.

Steve-O
28-04-2016, 08:33 PM
For someone like yourself who is such a strong advocate for rehab for folk that have actually been found guilty of breaking the law to be going out of his way to argue that bevvy WAS a contributing factor when the inquest found otherwise seems a tad odd to me.

I didn't argue that though? Definitely not a contributing factor to what happened in itself. I'm talking on an individual basis - i.e. someone might've been at the pub until late but might've gone to one of the side pens had they arrived earlier or whatever. HOWEVER, even turning up late having had a few drinks, nobody should expect to end up in the situation they did.

So I'm not saying drink CAUSED it at all and certainly not that it was the result of marauding drunks charging into the stadium, breaking down gates etc etc.

monktonharp
28-04-2016, 09:44 PM
I would recommend Hillsborough The Truth by Phil Scraton. It is a very difficult read, but it gives an accurate account of what went on that day and in the days after the disaster. Some of the facts how the whole thing was handled by South Yorkshire Police from start to finish are absolutely mind blowing and shameful.
Well done to the families for not giving up the fight and pursuing the truth and justice. Now the legal system has to step up and pursue convictions on those responsible.without distracting from the main topic, your very mention of the South Yorks.police and their actions brings back memories of what they did and more importantly said in court during and after the miner's strike. some of their officers were found to be answering repetitively amongst each other, and many admitted having been instructed to write reports up etc. Their actions at Hillsborough followed a pattern, and although I have not read the Hillsborough police reports or statements I know that several were accused of utter lies. the match commander has been exposed, and when I have seen some clips of the build up to the disaster, the regular polis look as if they were overwhelmed, and yet totally clueless and had no common sense or humanitarian thought, when trying to force people back into those pens from the pitch side. It was totally astounding to see them not taking an initiative to open the trackside gates. they Must have saw hundreds of faces pressed against those fences ,while gasping for breath. The Sun newspaper, again I refer to them re-the miner's strike also followed a familiar pattern in my eyes, by continually making up stories and telling absolute lies and demonising the miner's leaders. They got away with that too regarding Hillsborough for several weeks, and all this , done at the behest and support of the inner circle of the Tory party.I am amazed and yet not surprised to see the Sun newspaper still being bought in Scotland, and displayed on the dashboards of some of our so called tradesMENs vans of the current day. Can you not see what they are?

Ricky Bobby
28-04-2016, 10:25 PM
without distracting from the main topic, your very mention of the South Yorks.police and their actions brings back memories of what they did and more importantly said in court during and after the miner's strike. some of their officers were found to be answering repetitively amongst each other, and many admitted having been instructed to write reports up etc. Their actions at Hillsborough followed a pattern, and although I have not read the Hillsborough police reports or statements I know that several were accused of utter lies. the match commander has been exposed, and when I have seen some clips of the build up to the disaster, the regular polis look as if they were overwhelmed, and yet totally clueless and had no common sense or humanitarian thought, when trying to force people back into those pens from the pitch side. It was totally astounding to see them not taking an initiative to open the trackside gates. they Must have saw hundreds of faces pressed against those fences ,while gasping for breath. The Sun newspaper, again I refer to them re-the miner's strike also followed a familiar pattern in my eyes, by continually making up stories and telling absolute lies and demonising the miner's leaders. They got away with that too regarding Hillsborough for several weeks, and all this , done at the behest and support of the inner circle of the Tory party.I am amazed and yet not surprised to see the Sun newspaper still being bought in Scotland, and displayed on the dashboards of some of our so called tradesMENs vans of the current day. Can you not see what they are?

I can actually see why The Sun is still a popular newspaper in Scotland. There will be a significant number of it's readership that are too young to remember the Hillsborough disaster, but more importantly, the establishment, including South Yorkshire Police and West Midlands Police, who investigated the disaster before the Taylor report, as well as polititians and other media outlets who took part in a sustained campaign to cover up the truth and discredit the voices of those from Liverpool trying to expose the truth. That many in other parts of the UK could be forgiven for thinking that there was no smoke without fire in what was being reported.
The people of Liverpool knew the truth from day one as they were there.
What makes this such a disgrace is that we were all lied to for over 27 years, and some still refuse to accept responsibility.

monktonharp
28-04-2016, 11:03 PM
I can actually see why The Sun is still a popular newspaper in Scotland. There will be a significant number of it's readership that are too young to remember the Hillsborough disaster, but more importantly, the establishment, including South Yorkshire Police and West Midlands Police, who investigated the disaster before the Taylor report, as well as polititians and other media outlets who took part in a sustained campaign to cover up the truth and discredit the voices of those from Liverpool trying to expose the truth. That many in other parts of the UK could be forgiven for thinking that there was no smoke without fire in what was being reported.
The people of Liverpool knew the truth from day one as they were there.
What makes this such a disgrace is that we were all lied to for over 27 years, and some still refuse to accept responsibility.:agree:a younger generation unaware of the goings on, and assuming that there were some truths, when all the while older folk, and people directly involved at events knew at the time what the real situation was.

Smartie
29-04-2016, 10:03 AM
I consider "The Sun" and "The Scottish Sun" to be totally different papers (although I'm not sure what the situation was back in 1989).

You have different editors with different opinions and different editorial stances relating to their different editorial lines.

I loathe the English edition - it's stance on the miners strike and Hillsborough and generally it's lowest common denominator/ Tory rag approach of the 1980s is indefensible, and more often than not it will be edited by an unpleasant, right wing oaf who will push for the paper to back the Tory party.

I genuinely think the Scottish Sun is different - look at the approach it has taken to recent elections and the referendum.

The Sun's Hillsborough coverage had Kelvin McKenzie's (one of the most odious characters this country has ever 5hat into existence) paw prints all over it. Most youngsters/ current Sun readers will not associate the more recent and Scottish editions with what the paper represented in the past.

McKenzie is very different to the likes of our own Gordon Smart, who incidentally was 8 years old when Hillsborough happened.

Hibernia&Alba
29-04-2016, 05:47 PM
without distracting from the main topic, your very mention of the South Yorks.police and their actions brings back memories of what they did and more importantly said in court during and after the miner's strike. some of their officers were found to be answering repetitively amongst each other, and many admitted having been instructed to write reports up etc. Their actions at Hillsborough followed a pattern, and although I have not read the Hillsborough police reports or statements I know that several were accused of utter lies. the match commander has been exposed, and when I have seen some clips of the build up to the disaster, the regular polis look as if they were overwhelmed, and yet totally clueless and had no common sense or humanitarian thought, when trying to force people back into those pens from the pitch side. It was totally astounding to see them not taking an initiative to open the trackside gates. they Must have saw hundreds of faces pressed against those fences ,while gasping for breath. The Sun newspaper, again I refer to them re-the miner's strike also followed a familiar pattern in my eyes, by continually making up stories and telling absolute lies and demonising the miner's leaders. They got away with that too regarding Hillsborough for several weeks, and all this , done at the behest and support of the inner circle of the Tory party.I am amazed and yet not surprised to see the Sun newspaper still being bought in Scotland, and displayed on the dashboards of some of our so called tradesMENs vans of the current day. Can you not see what they are?

The Sun: Murdoch's mouthpiece for ignorant right wing idiocy - lies, sensationalism, a total absence of scruple and humanity; in fact much like the party it supports.

By the way, regarding the miners strike, wasn't one of the very first things the Thatcher government did in 1979 to award a large pay increase to the police: a bribe to be the bulwark against the social unrest they knew would come once their policies kicked in? Sadly, too many police officers fell for it and raked in the overtime during events like the miners strike.

gorgiegreens
29-04-2016, 07:50 PM
:agree:

The King is the King and long live the King. Nobody has been like him and I include Shankly and Paisley in that. It goes beyond football and managerial success. It goes beyond scoring the winner in the European Cup Final or winning the double. In fact, it goes beyond football at all; the man loves the club as the most ardent, steadfast supporter does. You cant fake that. This is why you cannot replicate it. I like Klopp. I've liked a lot of Liverpool managers down the years and I think there can be no question Shankly built it and Paisley used and built on that (and then some).

The campaign to have him knighted is for the greater public at large in a world where titles bestowed by an unelected head of state carry weight with a lot of people in this country. To the folk that matter to the King, he needs no further recognition. And that will never change. There aren't too many people who could and would have done what he done during the dark days of 1989 and the years since. And that matters to people.

Kenny Dalglish; the greatest of them all for all the reasons noted above and more besides.

He has certainly been put through the emotional ringer with Liverpool. He also played in the 1985 European Cup Final when 39 Juventus fans were killed due to the unaccetable behaviour of Liverpool thugs.

27 people were arrested on suspicion of manslaughter by police after they assessed a great deal of security footage. This led to 14 Liverpool fans given 3 year jail sentences. Half of these sentences were suspended and it is unclear how many people were eventually imprisoned for the incident.

Is this a cover up that suited Liverpool at the time.

Following the disaster, an initial report placed the blame entirely at the feet of the Liverpool fans. UEFA observer Gunter Schneider had concluded "Only the English fans were responsible. Of that there is no doubt." However, no official enquiry into the incident was ever undertaken.

Sounds like it was swept under the carpet.

Justice for THE 39

Kato
29-04-2016, 08:06 PM
By the way, regarding the miners strike, wasn't one of the very first things the Thatcher government did in 1979 to award a large pay increase to the police: a bribe to be the bulwark against the social unrest they knew would come once their policies kicked in? Sadly, too many police officers fell for it and raked in the overtime during events like the miners strike.


The tories planned for and provoked a miner's strike in the 80's. Keith Joseph, well known tory psychopath, wrote and published a paper on how to the unions, especially the miners in mid to late 70's. What became known as the Ridley Plan was invoked as soon as the tories came to power, including getting the police onside. Ł3Billion pounds of public money spent on crushing the miners and mining communities.

http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/great-miners%E2%80%99-strike-1984-85

mca
29-04-2016, 08:37 PM
Sad Article.. 97th man.. http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/northwest/14458298.Hillsborough_s__97th_victim__remembered/

Kato
29-04-2016, 08:44 PM
He has certainly been put through the emotional ringer with Liverpool. He also played in the 1985 European Cup Final when 39 Juventus fans were killed due to the unaccetable behaviour of Liverpool thugs.

27 people were arrested on suspicion of manslaughter by police after they assessed a great deal of security footage. This led to 14 Liverpool fans given 3 year jail sentences. Half of these sentences were suspended and it is unclear how many people were eventually imprisoned for the incident.

Is this a cover up that suited Liverpool at the time.

Following the disaster, an initial report placed the blame entirely at the feet of the Liverpool fans. UEFA observer Gunter Schneider had concluded "Only the English fans were responsible. Of that there is no doubt." However, no official enquiry into the incident was ever undertaken.

Sounds like it was swept under the carpet.

Justice for THE 39


People went to jail for Heysel. Is that not justice being done?

trev the hat
29-04-2016, 08:54 PM
There's no justice in any disaster

hibsbollah
29-04-2016, 09:04 PM
The Sun: Murdoch's mouthpiece for ignorant right wing idiocy - lies, sensationalism, a total absence of scruple and humanity; in fact much like the party it supports.

By the way, regarding the miners strike, wasn't one of the very first things the Thatcher government did in 1979 to award a large pay increase to the police: a bribe to be the bulwark against the social unrest they knew would come once their policies kicked in? Sadly, too many police officers fell for it and raked in the overtime during events like the miners strike.

45% iirc.

Wee Effen Bee
29-04-2016, 09:04 PM
I consider "The Sun" and "The Scottish Sun" to be totally different papers (although I'm not sure what the situation was back in 1989).

You have different editors with different opinions and different editorial stances relating to their different editorial lines.

I loathe the English edition - it's stance on the miners strike and Hillsborough and generally it's lowest common denominator/ Tory rag approach of the 1980s is indefensible, and more often than not it will be edited by an unpleasant, right wing oaf who will push for the paper to back the Tory party.

I genuinely think the Scottish Sun is different - look at the approach it has taken to recent elections and the referendum.

The Sun's Hillsborough coverage had Kelvin McKenzie's (one of the most odious characters this country has ever 5hat into existence) paw prints all over it. Most youngsters/ current Sun readers will not associate the more recent and Scottish editions with what the paper represented in the past.

McKenzie is very different to the likes of our own Gordon Smart, who incidentally was 8 years old when Hillsborough happened.

Sorry but the Scottish Sun is the same as the English crap. Editorial stances of the two are governed by one entity. The sole reason they supported the SNP, initially, was to break the hold of the Labour Party and sway opinion in Scotland. If they are different papers, why did the Scottish Sun not give its front pages to Hillsborough this week? Same as its sister paper - hidden away inside. Both papers are **** and should be avoided at all costs.

hibsbollah
29-04-2016, 09:05 PM
People went to jail for Heysel. Is that not justice being done?

I think he's trolling. bad taste.

FranckSuzy
29-04-2016, 10:26 PM
Everton ‏@Everton (https://twitter.com/Everton) 8h8 hours ago (https://twitter.com/Everton/status/726050931125673984) Here is the cover of tomorrow's matchday programme. #JFT96 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/JFT96?src=hash) #EFCvBOU (https://twitter.com/hashtag/EFCvBOU?src=hash)

16447

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 07:03 AM
He has certainly been put through the emotional ringer with Liverpool. He also played in the 1985 European Cup Final when 39 Juventus fans were killed due to the unaccetable behaviour of Liverpool thugs.

27 people were arrested on suspicion of manslaughter by police after they assessed a great deal of security footage. This led to 14 Liverpool fans given 3 year jail sentences. Half of these sentences were suspended and it is unclear how many people were eventually imprisoned for the incident.

Is this a cover up that suited Liverpool at the time.

Following the disaster, an initial report placed the blame entirely at the feet of the Liverpool fans. UEFA observer Gunter Schneider had concluded "Only the English fans were responsible. Of that there is no doubt." However, no official enquiry into the incident was ever undertaken.

Sounds like it was swept under the carpet.

Justice for THE 39

What has been swept under the carpet exactly? Liverpool fans were found guilty and jailed,no one as far as I know has ever denied that Liverpool supporters were responsible,no lies,no cover up,no false accusations.

Hibernia&Alba
30-04-2016, 07:05 AM
Everton ‏@Everton (https://twitter.com/Everton) 8h8 hours ago (https://twitter.com/Everton/status/726050931125673984) Here is the cover of tomorrow's matchday programme. #JFT96 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/JFT96?src=hash) #EFCvBOU (https://twitter.com/hashtag/EFCvBOU?src=hash)

16447

:top marks

gorgiegreens
30-04-2016, 10:32 AM
People went to jail for Heysel. Is that not justice being done?

It is unclear how many were imprisoned.

But that makes it allright.

s.a.m
30-04-2016, 11:27 AM
What has been swept under the carpet exactly? Liverpool fans were found guilty and jailed,no one as far as I know has ever denied that Liverpool supporters were responsible,no lies,no cover up,no false accusations.

:agree:...and all English clubs were banned from Europe for 5(?) years. I don't think that counts as sweeping it under the carpet either.

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 11:46 AM
It is unclear how many were imprisoned.

But that makes it allright.

Seven were imprisoned,seven received suspended sentences along with a Poice officer and UEFA official if I recall correctly. And no that doesn't make it allright either. But it makes you look silly.

Kato
30-04-2016, 12:36 PM
It is unclear how many were imprisoned.

But that makes it allright.

I think your living on your own little planet.

hibsbollah
30-04-2016, 12:40 PM
It is unclear how many were imprisoned.

But that makes it allright.

Enough now.

HUTCHYHIBBY
30-04-2016, 12:43 PM
Everton ‏@Everton (https://twitter.com/Everton) 8h8 hours ago (https://twitter.com/Everton/status/726050931125673984) Here is the cover of tomorrow's matchday programme. #JFT96 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/JFT96?src=hash) #EFCvBOU (https://twitter.com/hashtag/EFCvBOU?src=hash)

16447

Nice one Everton.

NAE NOOKIE
30-04-2016, 01:37 PM
Everton ‏@Everton (https://twitter.com/Everton) 8h8 hours ago (https://twitter.com/Everton/status/726050931125673984) Here is the cover of tomorrow's matchday programme. #JFT96 (https://twitter.com/hashtag/JFT96?src=hash) #EFCvBOU (https://twitter.com/hashtag/EFCvBOU?src=hash)

16447

Class

It shouldn't be forgotten that of all the English clubs who suffered as a result of the 5 year ban after Heysel Everton were probably the worst affected, they won the league and Cup winners cup in 84/85 and had a real shot at being European cup winners the next season, but that chance was denied them, ironically by the actions of Liverpool fans ........ Heysel being the straw that broke the camel's back after years of football violence around Europe.

Its testament to the Liverpudlian sense of community that a state of affairs that would have caused real bitterness in many football cities seems to have been so easily put aside for a higher common cause.

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 01:57 PM
Class

It shouldn't be forgotten that of all the English clubs who suffered as a result of the 5 year ban after Heysel Everton were probably the worst affected, they won the league and Cup winners cup in 84/85 and had a real shot at being European cup winners the next season, but that chance was denied them, ironically by the actions of Liverpool fans ........ Heysel being the straw that broke the camel's back after years of football violence around Europe.

Its testament to the Liverpudlian sense of community that a state of affairs that would have caused real bitterness in many football cities seems to have been so easily put aside for a higher common cause.

Yes absolutely, the chants of "Merseyside,Merseyside,Merseyside" that could be heard at many a match after that was testament to the Unity between the two clubs.

3pm
30-04-2016, 02:02 PM
Wonderful scenes at Goodison on the TV there.

Just Jimmy
30-04-2016, 02:03 PM
That is simply outstanding from Everton Football Club. And from Roberto Martinez. Top top class.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 02:15 PM
That is simply outstanding from Everton Football Club. And from Roberto Martinez. Top top class.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

What happened mate?

Just Jimmy
30-04-2016, 02:19 PM
What happened mate?
Had members of the families on the pitch before KO. Held a minutes applause. People in the stands visibly moved. Leighton baines looked choked up a bit. Martinez took time to hug and speak to each person as they left the pitch. Given his own circumstances lately it says a lot about him. It was just class from Everton.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

hibee1875
30-04-2016, 02:22 PM
What happened mate?


Had some of the families of the 96 out on the pitch for a minutes applause as 'he ain't heavy, he's my brother played'.

Everton fans with a banner that said "justice at last 96 brothers in arms".

Martinez then hugging the families as they left the pitch

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 02:48 PM
Had members of the families on the pitch before KO. Held a minutes applause. People in the stands visibly moved. Leighton baines looked choked up a bit. Martinez took time to hug and speak to each person as they left the pitch. Given his own circumstances lately it says a lot about him. It was just class from Everton.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Brilliant,sounds like a fantastic tribute.

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 02:48 PM
Had some of the families of the 96 out on the pitch for a minutes applause as 'he ain't heavy, he's my brother played'.

Everton fans with a banner that said "justice at last 96 brothers in arms".

Martinez then hugging the families as they left the pitch

Cheers.

3pm
30-04-2016, 04:34 PM
The video can be accessed via the match report.

http://www.skysports.com/football/everton-vs-bmouth/341539

FranckSuzy
30-04-2016, 09:12 PM
The video can be accessed via the match report.

http://www.skysports.com/football/everton-vs-bmouth/341539

What a wonderful gesture from Everton. :top marks

Scouse Hibee
30-04-2016, 09:27 PM
What can i say about the Everton fans today - ABSOLUTE CLASS - one city, one tight community. I thank you all & salute you all. I am so proud to come from the finest city on the planet. JFT96 :)

Scouse Hibee
01-05-2016, 07:47 AM
Jimmy McGovern's Hillsborough is being aired again tonight on ITV at 10.20, well worth a watch.

FranckSuzy
01-05-2016, 08:12 AM
Alan Stubbs (http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2016/04/30/football-put-firmly-perspective-hibs-boss-alan-stubbs-return-liverpool/?platform=hootsuite) returns to Liverpool and comments on Hillsborough

JimBHibees
01-05-2016, 08:24 AM
Alan Stubbs (http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2016/04/30/football-put-firmly-perspective-hibs-boss-alan-stubbs-return-liverpool/?platform=hootsuite) returns to Liverpool and comments on Hillsborough

Well said AS spot on.

bawheid
01-05-2016, 10:09 PM
Jimmy McGovern's Hillsborough is being aired again tonight on ITV at 10.20, well worth a watch.

Watching it now, never seen it before. Difficult to watch. Disgraceful that it happened in the first place, and disgusting that it's taken so long to get to this point.

SteveHFC
01-05-2016, 10:29 PM
Jimmy McGovern's Hillsborough is being aired again tonight on ITV at 10.20, well worth a watch.

Watched it on YouTube a few days ago. So hard to watch and it had me crying my eyes out throughout.

Victor Park
02-05-2016, 11:30 PM
I can actually see why The Sun is still a popular newspaper in Scotland. There will be a significant number of it's readership that are too young to remember the Hillsborough disaster, but more importantly, the establishment, including South Yorkshire Police and West Midlands Police, who investigated the disaster before the Taylor report, as well as polititians and other media outlets who took part in a sustained campaign to cover up the truth and discredit the voices of those from Liverpool trying to expose the truth. That many in other parts of the UK could be forgiven for thinking that there was no smoke without fire in what was being reported.
The people of Liverpool knew the truth from day one as they were there.
What makes this such a disgrace is that we were all lied to for over 27 years, and some still refuse to accept responsibility.

This article from a survivor who was in the heart of the crush in pen 3 was in the Observer yesterday. Goes into very interesting detail on a lot of the points you make. Well worth a read,i thought i knew most of the story but some of the things mentioned just unbelievable.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/01/hillsborough-inquest-survivor-adrian-tempany?CMP=share_btn_tw