Ched Evans

[Stevie Reid]

Has won his appeal but faces a new trial. Not exactly sure how that works given (IIRC) he had served his time for the original conviction: -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36099522

[SeanWilson]

Has won his appeal but faces a new trial. Not exactly sure how that works given (IIRC) he had served his time for the original conviction: -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-36099522

The new trial should be to condemn the people who convicted him in the first place. Awful conviction, which has likely changed this lads life.

[McIntosh]

The new trial should be to condemn the people who convicted him in the first place. Awful conviction, which has likely changed this lads life. :top marks well said. A few on here should hide their head in shame. I won't embarrass them but they know who they are.

[Wilson]

Is it telling that it goes to a retrial and isn't just quashed / overturned?

For all that the conviction is deemed unsafe he certainly put himself in this situation.

It might be a bit early for celebrating. Remember, a retrial also means that all parties get put through the mill again.

A tragic case and an indictment of modern life in so many ways.

[Steve-O]

Is it telling that it goes to a retrial and isn't just quashed / overturned?

For all that the conviction is deemed unsafe he certainly put himself in this situation.

It might be a bit early for celebrating. Remember, a retrial also means that all parties get put through the mill again.

A tragic case and an indictment of modern life in so many ways.

Presumably means there's still enough of a case to warrant a trial. May go a different way though.

[LaMotta]

The new trial should be to condemn the people who convicted him in the first place. Awful conviction, which has likely changed this lads life.

Correct! I wonder if Jean Hatchet will make an apology for her vilification of him?

[SeanWilson]

Correct! I wonder if Jean Hatchet will make an apology for her vilification of him?

And the rest. Sanctimonious idiots.

[McIntosh]

And the rest. Sanctimonious idiots. they are not saying much today, particularly one of our esteemed moderators!!!

[Ricky Bobby]

If, after this appeal result and the future retrial find that this guy has no case to answer, it is obviously very worrying that he has had to endure prison and the obvious effects to his personal life.
That said, him and his friends are still disgusting individuals.

[McIntosh]

If, after this appeal result and the future retrial find that this guy has no case to answer, it is obviously very worrying that he has had to endure prison and the obvious effects to his personal life.
That said, him and his friends are still disgusting individuals.
Well said but fortunately we do not convict people on their morality. If we did, a few of our 'heroes' would be considerable diminished. We should never forget that we have had a few "disgusting" individuals play for us.

[jacomo]

:top marks well said. A few on here should hide their head in shame. I won't embarrass them but they know who they are.

Oh dear me, not this again.

Maybe you should wait and see if Ched Evans is cleared of any wrong doing first? Would be rather more sensible than passing judgement on a criminal case from afar.

[Thecat23]

Personally think he'll be cleared of this.

[McIntosh]

Oh dear me, not this again.

Maybe you should wait and see if Ched Evans is cleared of any wrong doing first? Would be rather more sensible than passing judgement on a criminal case from afar.

A man has just has just had his conviction quashed by the court of appeal. The fact, the legal fact he is not now a convicted rapist. Can you not find it In your self to acknowledge this and admit that your rush to condem him without all the facts was mistaken.

[nellio]

Was hard to understand the guilty verdict in the first place when you look at all the evidence that was considered.

He will be due large amounts of compensation now as he has served time that he shouldn't have an became un-employable

[easty]

A man has just has just had his conviction quashed by the court of appeal. The fact, the legal fact he is not now a convicted rapist. Can you not find it In your self to acknowledge this and admit that your rush to condem him without all the facts was mistaken.

I don't remember you accepting the verdict when he was convicted?

[easty]

And you were the top of the list of sanctimonious idiots

Like you were when he was convicted aye?

[McIntosh]

I don't remember you accepting the verdict when he was convicted?
It was obvious even then the verdict was unsafe and tide and time had vindicated that position.

[jacomo]

A man has just has just had his conviction quashed by the court of appeal. The fact, the legal fact he is not now a convicted rapist. Can you not find it In your self to acknowledge this and admit that your rush to condem him without all the facts was mistaken.

I'm not going to get into this with you again, because it's like having an argument with a pebble. Pointless.

Just to be clear - I have never condemned Evans. That was for the courts to decide.

My advice to you is to do the same, and give up on the amateur barrister schtick. Neither you nor I were in court.

[Monts]

It was obvious even then the verdict was unsafe and tide and time had vindicated that position.

Am I not right in saying he has not been found innocent here, he has won a retrial. Maybe the gloating should wait until after the trial.

He has been downgraded from convicted rapist back to accused rapist.

[easty]

It was obvious even then the verdict was unsafe and tide and time had vindicated that position.

No, it was 'obvious' to you, it was 'obvious' to a host of folk on the internet who'd had nothing to do with the trial whatsoever. It wasn't obvious to the jury who convicted him, or to the judges at the court of appeal in 2012.

If Ched Evans isn't a rapist, then he shouldn't be in jail. I don't have a problem saying that. I don't think anyone does. He was convicted though, and at the time I was happy to support that conviction based on what I'd read, and based on our justice system finding him guilty. To refer to people who agreed with the court, and with the court of appeal, as sanctimonious is bull ****.

If he goes on to be convicted again, I'm sure his army of supporters will be out in force again, because they're right regardless apparently.

[McIntosh]

Am I not right in saying he has not been found innocent here, he has won a retrial. Maybe the gloating should wait until after the trial.

He has been downgraded from convicted rapist back to accused rapist. his conviction was quashed. It was an unsafe verdict. At the moment he has not been charged though that will probably happen.

[easty]

I'm not going to get into this with you again, because it's like having an argument with a pebble. Pointless.

Just to be clear - I have never condemned Evans. That was for the courts to decide.

My advice to you is to do the same, and give up on the amateur barrister schtick. Neither you nor I were in court.

:agree: exactly.

[McIntosh]

I'm not going to get into this with you again, because it's like having an argument with a pebble. Pointless.

Just to be clear - I have never condemned Evans. That was for the courts to decide.

My advice to you is to do the same, and give up on the amateur barrister schtick. Neither you nor I were in court.
It is amazing how you have just rewritten history. You condemned him to high heaven. I will not embarrass you by quoting your posts. However, there is no point in arguing none of us were in court.

[McIntosh]

No, it was 'obvious' to you, it was 'obvious' to a host of folk on the internet who'd had nothing to do with the trial whatsoever. It wasn't obvious to the jury who convicted him, or to the judges at the court of appeal in 2012.

If Ched Evans isn't a rapist, then he shouldn't be in jail. I don't have a problem saying that. I don't think anyone does. He was convicted though, and at the time I was happy to support that conviction based on what I'd read, and based on our justice system finding him guilty. To refer to people who agreed with the court, and with the court of appeal, as sanctimonious is bull ****.

If he goes on to be convicted again, I'm sure his army of supporters will be out in force again, because they're right regardless apparently.

I understand your position. Many people, "at the time" were happy to support the conviction of the Birmingham six and the Guildford Four.

[jacomo]

It is amazing how you have just rewritten history. You condemned him to high heaven. I will not embarrass you by quoting your posts. However, there is no point in arguing none of us were in court.

:faf:

[easty]

I understand your position. Many people, "at the time" were happy to support the conviction of the Birmingham six and the Guildford Four.

I don't really see that as a valid argument, those convictions aren't relevant. Many people were happy to support the convictions of Peter Sutcliffe and Myra Hindley "at the time" too.

[SaulGoodman]

In before this gets locked.

[Hibbyradge]

Is it telling that it goes to a retrial and isn't just quashed / overturned?

For all that the conviction is deemed unsafe he certainly put himself in this situation.


I think it means his conviction has been quashed and that he's innocent again unless proved guilty in the retrial.

It seems strange that they're going to a retrial.

[McIntosh]

I don't really see that as a valid argument, those convictions aren't relevant. Many people were happy to support the convictions of Peter Sutcliffe and Myra Hindley "at the time" too.
The point is that even at the time many people thought the Birmingham six and the Guildford Four were unsafe verdicts. No one thought that Sutcliffe or Hindley were unsafe verdicts. Clearly you do not question the verdict of juries.

[McIntosh]

:faf:
Good to see you laughing but even better to see you quiet.:wink:

[jacomo]

Good to see you laughing but even better to see you quiet.:wink:

I've met a few people who could start an argument in an empty room.

You could lose one.

[Mac]

No, it was 'obvious' to you, it was 'obvious' to a host of folk on the internet who'd had nothing to do with the trial whatsoever. It wasn't obvious to the jury who convicted him, or to the judges at the court of appeal in 2012.

If Ched Evans isn't a rapist, then he shouldn't be in jail. I don't have a problem saying that. I don't think anyone does. He was convicted though, and at the time I was happy to support that conviction based on what I'd read, and based on our justice system finding him guilty. To refer to people who agreed with the court, and with the court of appeal, as sanctimonious is bull ****.

If he goes on to be convicted again, I'm sure his army of supporters will be out in force again, because they're right regardless apparently.

His conviction of rape has been quashed and therefore he is completely innocent of rape, the retrial is for attacking/assault I believe.

[marinello59]

It is amazing how you have just rewritten history. You condemned him to high heaven. I will not embarrass you by quoting your posts. However, there is no point in arguing none of us were in court.

You are actually using a rape case to score points against other posters? Geezus, seen it all on here now.

[jacomo]

His conviction of rape has been quashed and therefore he is completely innocent of rape, the retrial is for attacking/assault I believe.

Nope, BBC reporting that original conviction is quashed but he will face a retrial for rape.

Apparently, new evidence has come to light which made the original conviction unsafe. It would seem pretty unwise for any of us to speculate on what that new evidence might be, although I wouldn't be surprised.

[Betty Boop]

I think it means his conviction has been quashed and that he's innocent again unless proved guilty in the retrial.

It seems strange that they're going to a retrial.

Fresh evidence has emerged.

[HNA12]

Please try and stick to the issue without resorting to personal insults. Any more and the thread will be closed. We have enough on our hands here looking after threads dedicated to purely fitba matters.

[McIntosh]

I've met a few people who could start an argument in an empty room.

You could lose one. but not one against you.

[Beefster]

The Internet is nuts sometimes.

[Mac]

Nope, BBC reporting that original conviction is quashed but he will face a retrial for rape.

Apparently, new evidence has come to light which made the original conviction unsafe. It would seem pretty unwise for any of us to speculate on what that new evidence might be, although I wouldn't be surprised.

Seems to be different stories flying around, seems strange to quash the original allegation then retrial for the same thing, law normally doesn't allow to be retried for the same offence once reached trial.

[Colr]

His conviction of rape has been quashed and therefore he is completely innocent of rape, the retrial is for attacking/assault I believe.

Leaving aside the technical and legal arguments on rape, his behaviour - as reported - was absolutely reprehensible. He's no gentleman - I would say he's only technically a man at all.

[Mac]

Leaving aside the technical and legal arguments on rape, his behaviour - as reported - was absolutely reprehensible. He's no gentleman - I would say he's only technically a man at all.

not disagreeing on that front.

[Hibs Class]

Seems to be different stories flying around, seems strange to quash the original allegation then retrial for the same thing, law normally doesn't allow to be retried for the same offence once reached trial.

It isn't that uncommon to have a retrial, for example where a jury has been unable to reach a verdict or as in this case where a conviction is overturned but the judges still believe there is sufficient evidence for the case to be retried.

[Moulin Yarns]

Quote from the judge


Announcing the court's decision, Lady Justice Hallett said the judges heard "fresh evidence" during the appeal hearing on 22 and 23 March.
She said: "In summary, we have concluded that we must allow the appeal and that it is in the interests of justice to order a retrial."
The court quashed Mr Evans's conviction and declared: "The appellant will be retried on the allegation of rape."

[SeanWilson]

Leaving aside the technical and legal arguments on rape, his behaviour - as reported - was absolutely reprehensible. He's no gentleman - I would say he's only technically a man at all.

Nah, I'm not having that. If his behaviour is reprehensible then a lot of the young male population of Britain have issues.

[Hibbyradge]

Nah, I'm not having that. If his behaviour is reprehensible then a lot of the young male population of Britain have issues.

Really?

Do you know what happened?

If a lot of the UK male population behave like that then they do, indeed, have issues.

[Pretty Boy]

Nah, I'm not having that. If his behaviour is reprehensible then a lot of the young male population of Britain have issues.

If people really believe Evans behaviour, even though it may not have been rape, is acceptable then they certainly do have issues imo.

[easty]

Really?

Do you know what happened?

If a lot of the UK male population behave like that then they do, indeed, have issues.

C'mon radge, you saying you haven't ever chatted up a drunk girl outside a kebab shop, so drunk in fact that she doesn't know how she got there, convinced her to come back to your hotel, phoned your mate to tell him you'd got a girl and he should come over, had sex with her, then left so that your mate could have sex with her while your other mates tried to film it through the window. Then just left her there to wake up in the morning alone, not sure how she'd got there or what had happened.

Hasn't everyone?

Nah, me neither.

[Hibbyradge]

C'mon radge, you saying you haven't ever chatted up a drunk girl outside a kebab shop, so drunk in fact that she doesn't know how she got there, convinced her to come back to your hotel, phoned your mate to tell him you'd got a girl and he should come over, had sex with her, then left so that your mate could have sex with her while your other mates tried to film it through the window. Then just left her there to wake up in the morning alone, not sure how she'd got there or what had happened.

Hasn't everyone?

Nah, me neither.

Only a couple of times, but I've always nipped down the fire escape afterwards so no one would see me.

I wanted to safeguard the girl's reputation, likesay.

[Future17]

Was hard to understand the guilty verdict in the first place when you look at all the evidence that was considered.

He will be due large amounts of compensation now as he has served time that he shouldn't have an became un-employable

No, he won't. He was convicted in line with due process based on the evidence which was available at the time. Even if he were to be found not guilty at the new trial, he wasn't wrongfully convicted in the first one, so no compensation will be due to him.

[Ricky Bobby]

If people really believe Evans behaviour, even though it may not have been rape, is acceptable then they certainly do have issues imo.

Exactly this

[McIntosh]

If people really believe Evans behaviour, even though it may not have been rape, is acceptable then they certainly do have issues imo.

The pivotal question around this case is consent. If both consented and this has to be established who is it for you to judge what consenting adults do in their private time. Reading the messages many on here must live truly exemplary lives.

[Pretty Boy]

The pivotal question around this case is consent. If both consented and this has to be established who is it for you to judge what consenting adults do in their private time. Reading the messages many on here must live truly exemplary lives.
If he's not a rapist then that should be accepted. I still wouldn't like to think any of my mates would behave the way he and his friend did though.

I'm no more qualified to judge him than anyone, I daresay I do things in life people disapprove of, we all have opinions though and mine is that his behaviour was, to put it mildly, somewhat distatsteful.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[LaMotta]

I do not like Evans behaviour that evening and agree with many of the comments about that just posted, however the main debate was never ( or at least shouldn’t have been) about whether he was a nice guy or not.

The debate was around whether the conviction in court was safe, and what is most worrying about the whole thing was that so many people just point blank refused to accept that there is margin for error in our judicial system.

With the ( well documented) circumstances in this case I don’t think it could ever be possible to prove guilt or innocence either way . This is why there was so much concern about the original verdict because Evans was found guilty without any way to prove unequivocally whether consent was able to be given or not, and therefore whether a crime was committed. In essence the jury guessed, and if they had to be guessing then guilty should not have been the verdict. Will be interesting to see what the new evidence is when that comes to light.

There was rarely any sensible debate around this from the start, from the “Super Ched” idiots on twitter calling him a hero to the Jean Hatchet’s of this world claiming that anyone who thought the verdict was questionable was a victim blaming, rape apologising misogynist. People like Jean Hatchet have done more harm than good for the cause she claims to be so passionate about, and by refusing to engage in balanced debate have unfortunately helped to fuel the aforementioned “Super Ched” idiots.

[Colr]

Nah, I'm not having that. If his behaviour is reprehensible then a lot of the young male population of Britain have issues.

A lot of the male population DO have issues when it comes to the treatment of women.

[21.05.2016]

I've said for a while now that there was something very weird with this case.

If the new evidence that has emerged finds that the girls falsely cried rape against him then she should be facing jail. A terrible terrible thing to do, if she has then she should be utterly ashamed of herself as she ruined the guys life and reputation

[21.05.2016]

There was rarely any sensible debate around this from the start, from the “Super Ched” idiots on twitter calling him a hero to the Jean Hatchet’s of this world claiming that anyone who thought the verdict was questionable was a victim blaming, rape apologising misogynist. People like Jean Hatchet have done more harm than good for the cause she claims to be so passionate about, and by refusing to engage in balanced debate have unfortunately helped to fuel the aforementioned “Super Ched” idiots.

Well said.

[Future17]

A lot of the male population DO have issues when it comes to the treatment of women.

Agreed. Also a lot of the younger population of this country, of both genders, have issues when it comes to sexual conduct/abuse/violence as was highlighted again this week: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36071502

[Hibbyradge]

If the new evidence that has emerged finds that the girls falsely cried rape against him then she should be facing jail.

She didn't ever say she had been raped.

[RyeSloan]

She didn't ever say she had been raped.

I still find it odd that someone can consume enough alcohol in 1.5 hours so have such severe memory loss but there you go.

Personally I find it difficult for any jury to be able to determine beyond reasonable doubt that consent was not given (which is where I assume the burden of proof lies, not that it was given).

Not condoning his actions in any way shape or form but on the evidence presented...I.e one party has no recollection and the other party says that it was then it seems that there can be no other conclusion but that there is significant doubt on whether consent was withheld and I reckon that will be the verdict at the re-trial.

[CropleyWasGod]

I still find it odd that someone can consume enough alcohol in 1.5 hours so have such severe memory loss but there you go.

Personally I find it difficult for any jury to be able to determine beyond reasonable doubt that consent was not given (which is where I assume the burden of proof lies, not that it was given).

Not condoning his actions in any way shape or form but on the evidence presented...I.e one party has no recollection and the other party says that it was then it seems that there can be no other conclusion but that there is significant doubt on whether consent was withheld and I reckon that will be the verdict at the re-trial.

Pretty sure the law, in Scotland at any rate, says that consent cannot be given if the complainant was drunk or otherwise incapacitated.

[21.05.2016]

She didn't ever say she had been raped.

how has she not like?

[CropleyWasGod]

how has she not like?

Was the police who pressed the charge, IIRC, not her.

[RyeSloan]

Pretty sure the law, in Scotland at any rate, says that consent cannot be given if the complainant was drunk or otherwise incapacitated.

It's an interesting point and maybe one that the case hinges on...a quick Google has thrown us this:

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 for England and Wales says that a person consents to something if that person ‘agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice’.

Considering the jury clearly found that the female in question had the capacity to be consensual to the first dude then it seems quite difficult to argue that she didn't have the capacity to do so with Evans but I suppose that's the crux of the matter...

[Hibbyradge]

how has she not like?

There are numerous reports available online.

[Hibbyradge]

It's an interesting point and maybe one that the case hinges on...a quick Google has thrown us this:

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 for England and Wales says that a person consents to something if that person ‘agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice’.

Considering the jury clearly found that the female in question had the capacity to be consensual to the first dude then it seems quite difficult to argue that she didn't have the capacity to do so with Evans but I suppose that's the crux of the matter...

More here.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/#a03

[21.05.2016]

Was the police who pressed the charge, IIRC, not her.

Aww ok I see!

[Future17]

It's an interesting point and maybe one that the case hinges on...a quick Google has thrown us this:

The Sexual Offences Act 2003 for England and Wales says that a person consents to something if that person ‘agrees by choice and has the freedom and capacity to make that choice’.

Considering the jury clearly found that the female in question had the capacity to be consensual to the first dude then it seems quite difficult to argue that she didn't have the capacity to do so with Evans but I suppose that's the crux of the matter...

I don't think it is. For a jury, I think it's a lot easier to believe that consent was provided by a person who spent a decent amount of time in the company of another person, including sharing a taxi journey back to that person's hotel and entering his room, rather than being provided by a person who was allegedly passed out on a bed, to a person who'd just arrived in the room.

[RyeSloan]

I don't think it is. For a jury, I think it's a lot easier to believe that consent was provided by a person who spent a decent amount of time in the company of another person, including sharing a taxi journey back to that person's hotel and entering his room, rather than being provided by a person who was allegedly passed out on a bed, to a person who'd just arrived in the room.

But what evidence is there to suggest she was passed out? As far as I can see the female is claiming she can't recall any of the events so again I struggle to see past the reasonable doubt argument.

I get you point and totally agree that it is indeed easier to argue consent was implicit because of her actions with the first guy, hence I suppose why he was not convicted. However I would have thought to convict Evans there would have to be a strong case to show that the female was not capable of providing consent...as she can't remember and Evans says there was consent for me it's difficult to imagine what evidence could be put forward that could prove that wasn't the case.

As I said I'm not placing any judgement on the actions of the individuals involved just mulling over how he verdict was reached in the first place and the likely outcome of the re-trial.

[Hibbyradge]

But what evidence is there to suggest she was passed out? As far as I can see the female is claiming she can't recall any of the events so again I struggle to see past the reasonable doubt argument.

I get you point and totally agree that it is indeed easier to argue consent was implicit because of her actions with the first guy, hence I suppose why he was not convicted. However I would have thought to convict Evans there would have to be a strong case to show that the female was not capable of providing consent...as she can't remember and Evans says there was consent for me it's difficult to imagine what evidence could be put forward that could prove that wasn't the case.

As I said I'm not placing any judgement on the actions of the individuals involved just mulling over how he verdict was reached in the first place and the likely outcome of the re-trial.

The fact that she cannot remember implies, in law, that she was incapable of giving consent.

I think.

Edit: This is the official line;

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/#a03

[easty]

But what evidence is there to suggest she was passed out? As far as I can see the female is claiming she can't recall any of the events so again I struggle to see past the reasonable doubt argument.

I get you point and totally agree that it is indeed easier to argue consent was implicit because of her actions with the first guy, hence I suppose why he was not convicted. However I would have thought to convict Evans there would have to be a strong case to show that the female was not capable of providing consent...as she can't remember and Evans says there was consent for me it's difficult to imagine what evidence could be put forward that could prove that wasn't the case.

As I said I'm not placing any judgement on the actions of the individuals involved just mulling over how he verdict was reached in the first place and the likely outcome of the re-trial.

I've not seen it, but there's video, that was played in court, of the girl falling over and pissing in the street by the kebab shop where Evans' mate picks her up. Clearly wasted. Then video of the girl and Evans' mate, going into the hotel. I think that's the reason they can assume some kind of consent between those two. Rightly or wrongly.

Evans appears later, there's nothing to suggest he was invited by the girl. His mate text him saying he had a bird, not that she wanted him to come over too. He gets a key for the room by lying to the receptionist. Why not just tap on the door if you were invited to come over for sex? Once in the room, Ched Evans says his mate invited to join in. His mate says no, it was Ched who asked if he could join in. He then leaves in the morning out the fire escape, while his mate goes out the front. Again, there's no concrete evidence in any of that, but a jury did find him guilty after hearing it all.

[--------]

C'mon radge, you saying you haven't ever chatted up a drunk girl outside a kebab shop, so drunk in fact that she doesn't know how she got there, convinced her to come back to your hotel, phoned your mate to tell him you'd got a girl and he should come over, had sex with her, then left so that your mate could have sex with her while your other mates tried to film it through the window. Then just left her there to wake up in the morning alone, not sure how she'd got there or what had happened.

Hasn't everyone?

Nah, me neither.

I seem to remember a posting on YouTube by an young woman in the US who PRETENDED to be 'that' drunk just to see how guys would behave towards her. Nearly every man she met tried to persuade her to go off with him even although the way she was acting clearly indicated she hadn't a clue where she was or what she was doing. This shone a very poor light on the male population of Hollywood Boulevard.

But that turned out to be a fake - the guys were all actors. This one was done in New York a few months later which suggests that most men don't act like Ched Evans or his rotten buddies. AFAIK this one's for real.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYQcyddSLs

So no, I don't think it's being 'sanctimonious' to express disapproval of the way Evans and his friends behave.



A lot of the male population DO have issues when it comes to the treatment of women.

Ain't THAT just the truth.



The pivotal question around this case is consent. If both consented and this has to be established who is it for you to judge what consenting adults do in their private time. Reading the messages many on here must live truly exemplary lives.


Pretty sure the law, in Scotland at any rate, says that consent cannot be given if the complainant was drunk or otherwise incapacitated.

Yup - the question would be whether she was in a fit state to give conscious, informed consent at the point Evans came into the affair. Last time I remember, drunkenness was a progressive state - a person can be reasonably mentally competent at one time, but very far from mentally competent half an hour or an hour later - regardless of whether he or she is still drinking.

Ah well - LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!!! :devil:

[Hibs Class]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36575406

Signs one year deal with Chesterfield.

[Colr]

****bag!

[overdrive]

Found not guilty of rape.

[Pretty Boy]

Sets an interesting precedent that the alleged victims sexual history was allowed to be openly discussed in court.

People had doubts about the safety of the original conviction, I have doubts that the correct decision has been made today.

[RyeSloan]

Sets an interesting precedent that the alleged victims sexual history was allowed to be openly discussed in court.

People had doubts about the safety of the original conviction, I have doubts that the correct decision has been made today.

Not from what I have read...in terms of reaching a criminal conviction there seems to have been zero evidence to support the fact it was not consensual. How he arrived and how he left are irrelevant and one party simply couldn't remember what happened...how then could any jury reach a conclusion that what happened beyond reasonable doubt was rape?

Not saying it's wasn't, not saying his actions should be defended but simply saying that there was a clear deficit of evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there wasn't consent. Which I assume is where the burden of proof lies.

[Hibbyradge]

I accepted the court's decision first time and I accept it again.

[calumhibee1]

From the evidence that was known to the public the first time round he should never have been found guilty.

[Colr]

I accepted the court's decision first time and I accept it again.

I think you have too but nothing I've read so far has convinced me that Evans and his acquaintances are anything more than low life **** with a seriously low, sub-human regard for their fellow human being.

He's certainly no gentleman.

[johnbc70]

The fact the women could not remember surely means there was always reasonable doubt, is it not the case that any doubt you have to find not guilty.

[Onceinawhile]

The fact the women could not remember surely means there was always reasonable doubt, is it not the case that any doubt you have to find not guilty.

Or, if she was too drunk to remember, she was too drunk to consent and therefore he would be guilty.

Not an easy decision for either jury and glad I wasn't involved.

[speedy_gonzales]

He's certainly no gentleman.

Just as the other party was no lady,,,,in this day and age it counts for very little either way.

[Colr]

Just as the other party was no lady,,,,in this day and age it counts for very little either way.

She certainly isn't but he assaulted her not the other way round.

I miss the attraction of having sex with someone who is utterly incapable. Maybe he can explain himself

A man should be above such behaviour

[Pete]

She certainly isn't but he assaulted her not the other way round.

I miss the attraction of having sex with someone who is utterly incapable. Maybe he can explain himself

A man should be above such behaviour

I must be missing the part where he assaulted her.

[Allant1981]

She certainly isn't but he assaulted her not the other way round.

I miss the attraction of having sex with someone who is utterly incapable. Maybe he can explain himself

A man should be above such behaviour

When did he assault her?

[speedy_gonzales]

She certainly isn't but he assaulted her not the other way round.

I miss the attraction of having sex with someone who is utterly incapable. Maybe he can explain himself

A man should be above such behaviour

A man should be, you're certainly right there but I reckon (and my reckoning counts for very little) that they were as bad as each other and whilst the law quite rightly protects the vulnerable we have to be careful it's not abused when someone wakes up the next day and doesn't know if they consented or not, or whether they were in a position to give consent or whether the other party was in a fit state to validate that consent.
The recent trial and new witness intimates that this isn't the first time she slept with someone (or thought she had) and had no idea the next day. Whilst my compassion might seem waining, I genuinely think she needs help if this is a regular occurrence.

As for being a gentleman, that's a construct of a society long gone, todays society is going down the plughole!

[speedy_gonzales]

When did he assault her?


I must be missing the part where he assaulted her.

If there's an assumption she didn't or couldn't consent (in the legal sense) then a sexual assault was carried out,,, that's my understanding of it.

[hibsbollah]

Sets an interesting precedent that the alleged victims sexual history was allowed to be openly discussed in court.

People had doubts about the safety of the original conviction, I have doubts that the correct decision has been made today.

Agree completely. A really sad day for women's safety from sexual violence.

[Pretty Boy]

Agree completely. A really sad day for women's safety from sexual violence.

The reaction on social media is scary. Some me just seem to have little to no respect for women.

'That tart cost us promotion, should get her down the Lane and let 20000 Blades have a line up and pound her c*** in.'

That was one particular charmers viewpoint. I wonder if a man like that ever pauses to think of his own Mother, Sister or Daughter? The usual nonsense about what she was wearing, how she acted, how much she drank, what she enjoyed sexually getting dragged up.

Ultimately only 3, possibly 5, people really know if the crime of rape was committed, anything else is an assumption made based in interpretation of the presented evidence but the attitudes some me seem to have towards women are pretty horrifying.

[speedy_gonzales]

The reaction on social media is scary. Some me just seem to have little to no respect for women.


Lack of respect is not limited to men, some women have little or no respect for themselves never mind other women and by that I mean I have a family member, female mid 20's, that's forever posting on FaceBook/Instagram how she lives p€n1s, can't get enough of it, loves giving oral etc. Now I'm not a prude by any means but I'd find that kind of talk on social media repulsive if it came from a random stranger but coming from a family member I think is shocking.

[marinello59]

Agree completely. A really sad day for women's safety from sexual violence.

Totally agree.

[hibsbollah]

Lack of respect is not limited to men, some women have little or no respect for themselves never mind other women and by that I mean I have a family member, female mid 20's, that's forever posting on FaceBook/Instagram how she lives p€n1s, can't get enough of it, loves giving oral etc. Now I'm not a prude by any means but I'd find that kind of talk on social media repulsive if it came from a random stranger but coming from a family member I think is shocking.

That's not in any way comparable to the sort of mysogyny and calls for violent sexual retribution we're seeing online is it?

[Beefster]

We can expect to hear the 'Ched Evans defence' from loads of ****bags who have sex with folk too pished to consent now.

Basically, if you're comatose for any reason, you're fair game.

[Pretty Boy]

Lack of respect is not limited to men, some women have little or no respect for themselves never mind other women and by that I mean I have a family member, female mid 20's, that's forever posting on FaceBook/Instagram how she lives p€n1s, can't get enough of it, loves giving oral etc. Now I'm not a prude by any means but I'd find that kind of talk on social media repulsive if it came from a random stranger but coming from a family member I think is shocking.
I'm sure there are indeed many people of both sexes who have a lack of respect for themselves and/or others of the same sex.

Speaking specifically about the reaction to this case though I've found some opinions quite disturbing and I'd hope those I call friends don't think the same way.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[speedy_gonzales]

That's not in any way comparable to the sort of mysogyny and calls for violent sexual retribution we're seeing online is it?
Apologies, thought we were discussing the behaviour of those involved in this case and my contribution whilst not related was to highlight the fact there's women & men out there that perhaps make inappropriate decisions.
I've consciously started away from any social beside platforms on this case where folk are baying for blood,,,,at the end of the day a young woman has woken up and found herself in a distressing situation, regardless how she got there I wouldn't be calling for retribution.

[easty]

We can expect to hear the 'Ched Evans defence' from loads of ****bags who have sex with folk too pished to consent now.

Basically, if you're comatose for any reason, you're fair game.

Especially if you have a bit of money to flash, and can get a couple of people to tell the police how much she was up for it with them previously.

[johnbc70]

Her previous sexual encounters were only brought up as the appeal judge ruled they were so relevant to the case, it only happens in extremely rare cases, of which this was one.

In this case days before, and a few days after the incident with Ched Evans she apparently had sex with men and could not remember the encounters. The judge ruled this was relevant to the case and allowed it to be brought up, but as I say I believe it is very rare.

[Allant1981]

If there's an assumption she didn't or couldn't consent (in the legal sense) then a sexual assault was carried out,,, that's my understanding of it.

Was he charged with sexual assault?

[lord bunberry]

Agree completely. A really sad day for women's safety from sexual violence.
I agree, but not for the reason he was found not guilty.

[Colr]

I must be missing the part where he assaulted her.

If you were passed out with your wallet on the table and I helped myself to it I would still have committed a theft.

[Pete]

The girl was getting a hard time before this so I can only imagine what's she's being subjected to now. She never made any complaint and can't remember a thing and the only thing she's guilty of is, well, being a bit of a slag. That isn't a crime and I bet a lot of the people subjecting her to abuse aren't exactly whiter than white. A statement from Cheds camp telling everyone to leave her alone would be a nice gesture.

One thing I wouldn't be doing is mouthing off on social media about how he purchased evidence and therefore his innocence. If he's got all that cash then maybe it will be him making an example of someone this time.

[Pete]

If you were passed out with your wallet on the table and I helped myself to it I would still have committed a theft.

What if I gave you my wallet voluntarily yet you get arrested and charged with theft the next day by people who will never know what happened?

[hibsbollah]

The girl was getting a hard time before this so I can only imagine what's she's being subjected to now. She never made any complaint and can't remember a thing and the only thing she's guilty of is, well, being a bit of a slag. That isn't a crime and I bet a lot of the people subjecting her to abuse aren't exactly whiter than white. A statement from Cheds camp telling everyone to leave her alone would be a nice gesture.

One thing I wouldn't be doing is mouthing off on social media about how he purchased evidence and therefore his innocence. If he's got all that cash then maybe it will be him making an example of someone this time.

The problem is, the 'Ched Evans camp' seem to be the source of much of the early character association which has fuelled the hatred, using the man himselfs well funded PR machine. A 'nice gesture', even now he's got want he wanted, is probably totally beyond him.

[Colr]

What if I gave you my wallet voluntarily yet you get arrested and charged with theft the next day by people who will never know what happened?

If you didn't have "contractual capacity" because you were too drunk to know what you were doing your consent would be invalid.

Even if it wasn't illegal. It would be wrong.

[easty]

If you were passed out with your wallet on the table and I helped myself to it I would still have committed a theft.

Depends if Lee Wallace was around to grass you up I suppose

[Pretty Boy]

The girl was getting a hard time before this so I can only imagine what's she's being subjected to now. She never made any complaint and can't remember a thing and the only thing she's guilty of is, well, being a bit of a slag. That isn't a crime and I bet a lot of the people subjecting her to abuse aren't exactly whiter than white. A statement from Cheds camp telling everyone to leave her alone would be a nice gesture.

One thing I wouldn't be doing is mouthing off on social media about how he purchased evidence and therefore his innocence. If he's got all that cash then maybe it will be him making an example of someone this time.

I think we still live in a society in which a man being a bit of a slag is a 'lad', a 'legend' or a 'player' whislt a woman behaving in the same way is a 'slut', a 'slapper' or a 'whore'.

I think most young people are guilty at some point in their lives of behaving in ways that are reckless when it comes to sex. I've certainly been guilty of such. As you say though that's not a crime and the consequences of such behaviour for both Evans and his accuser in this case have been significant.

One of the best pieces of writing with regards to the act, reporting, trial and consequences of rape is, in my opinion, by Irvine Welsh in Maribou Stork Nightmares. It's a very disturbing narrative but it captures a very dark area well.

[Hibrandenburg]

Not been following this closely so this might already have been asked. Had Evans been drinking?

[lord bunberry]

I think we still live in a society in which a man being a bit of a slag is a 'lad', a 'legend' or a 'player' whislt a woman behaving in the same way is a 'slut', a 'slapper' or a 'whore'.

I think most young people are guilty at some point in their lives of behaving in ways that are reckless when it comes to sex. I've certainly been guilty of such. As you say though that's not a crime and the consequences of such behaviour for both Evans and his accuser in this case have been significant.

One of the best pieces of writing with regards to the act, reporting, trial and consequences of rape is, in my opinion, by Irvine Welsh in Maribou Stork Nightmares. It's a very disturbing narrative but it captures a very dark area well.
I agree 100% with all of that, but it also seems we live in a society where a girl can drink too much, not remember what happened and ruin another persons life. Being too drunk and having no recollection of committing a crime is not a defence in the eyes of the law, but it seems that you can get extremely drunk and not remember and the police will invent a crime for you.
This whole case is an absolute shambles and it should never have came to court.
Im a pacifist in every sense of the word and violence in any form makes me sick, I just don't see how this case has helped either, the cause of the victims of rape or the falsely accused.

[calumhibee1]

Not been following this closely so this might already have been asked. Had Evans been drinking?

I'm pretty sure he had.

[Betty Boop]

Lack of respect is not limited to men, some women have little or no respect for themselves never mind other women and by that I mean I have a family member, female mid 20's, that's forever posting on FaceBook/Instagram how she lives p€n1s, can't get enough of it, loves giving oral etc. Now I'm not a prude by any means but I'd find that kind of talk on social media repulsive if it came from a random stranger but coming from a family member I think is shocking.

:agree: Some women should examine their own behaviour.

[Colr]

:agree: Some women should examine their own behaviour.

They should but that doesn't excuse Evans behaviour

[Hibrandenburg]

They should but that doesn't excuse Evans behaviour

Devil's advocate here, but if they'd both had a skinfull then surely both are guilty of inappropriate behaviour?

[danhibees1875]

We can expect to hear the 'Ched Evans defence' from loads of ****bags who have sex with folk too pished to consent now.

Basically, if you're comatose for any reason, you're fair game.

Comatose being unable to wake up from a deep state of unconconsiousness, yes? Because there are videos which show her walking freely into the hotel and it seems to be a widely help account of the incident that she agreed to Evans joining in on the act. Neither sound at all like someone who is comatose.

FWIW, I disagree that a girls sexual history should have any bearing on the outcome of this trial. I think that's wrong. I also doubt it was the only thing considered - it's just the most sensational to report on for the media to latch on to.

The jury are in possession of more facts that you or I, and they've found him not guilty. From what I've seen, that seems the right decision. I feel for all parties involved in this; the girl who never once actually accused him of rape and now seems to be getting a truck tonne of abuse, Evans who will continue to get abuse for something he was found not guilty of and spent 2 years in jail for regardless , and the families of both parties involved in the ordeal.

Also, for the poster who's family member writes a lot of questionable stuff on Facebook - it's worth considering that it's very possibly her pals doing it. Whenever someone had unmonitored access to my Facebook I usually ended up with "I love cock" written on my wall too (once I even had my profile picture changed to Mark DeVries).

[Betty Boop]

They should but that doesn't excuse Evans behaviour

No you are right it doesn't..

[Mr_F]

Lack of respect is not limited to men, some women have little or no respect for themselves never mind other women and by that I mean I have a family member, female mid 20's, that's forever posting on FaceBook/Instagram how she lives p€n1s, can't get enough of it, loves giving oral etc. Now I'm not a prude by any means but I'd find that kind of talk on social media repulsive if it came from a random stranger but coming from a family member I think is shocking.

PM me her name please :aok:

[johnbc70]

PM me her name please :aok:

Ha ha, many probably thought it, you said it.

[Mr_F]

Ha ha, many probably run thought it, you said it.

Purely for a study I'm doing likes...

[Beefster]

Comatose being unable to wake up from a deep state of unconconsiousness, yes? Because there are videos which show her walking freely into the hotel and it seems to be a widely help account of the incident that she agreed to Evans joining in on the act. Neither sound at all like someone who is comatose.

I didn't say that the girl in the Ched Evans case was comatose. I said if someone is comatose then they are fair game because how are they ever going to prove that they didn't give consent, especially if they're not a virgin at that point?

[Pretty Boy]

I didn't say that the girl in the Ched Evans case was comatose. I said if someone is comatose then they are fair game because how are they ever going to prove that they didn't give consent, especially if they're not a virgin at that point?

I think the whole issue of consent and drunken consent ultimately comes down to how it is interpreted in each individual case. The legislation surrounding it is woefully inadequate imo and I've argued as much before.

I have a female friend who made an allegation of rape a few years back. She met a man in a pub, went on to a club with him and then, along with a friend and another man back to his flat. At that point the man tried to kiss her and she said no, he continued and raped her. The case was never brought to court due to insufficient evidence as she didn't cintact the Police for a few days afterwards. It was alluded to her that the defence would have a field day with playing up the fact she had agreed to go back to his flat. The man in question didn't give a **** and lorded it up in pubs and clubs for months afterwards and was treated as some kind of hero by a few. Not long afterwards he was put on trial for rape in a situation not dissimilar to the Ched Evans case where a girl had claimed to have woken up to him having sex with her and had no memory of how the situation began. He was found not guilty and the ruling was along the lines of a lack of memory didn't necessarily imply a lack of consent.