All PPI Edinburgh schools closed on Monday

[s.a.m]

Further issues uncovered at Oxgangs today, so all PPI schools closed Monday (and indefinitely), and parents are being advised to make childcare arrangements for the coming week:

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/info/20074/schools/1423/school_closures
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/education/safety-fears-to-shut-19-edinburgh-schools-1-4095097

Temporary arrangements for closed schools

Read the latest information on school closures here.
Parents will be contacted directly if there are any issues relating to their school.
Download information about the current Public Private Partnership 1 (PPP1) school closures below.
Updates will be published on


this page
our Twitter feed (external link) (http://www.twitter.com/Edinburgh_CC)
Radio Forth.

Update from 8 April 2016

We have taken the precautionary decision to close all of our PPP1 premises from Monday 11 April 2016.
The premises will be closed on Monday and parents will be given regular updates over the coming week regarding latest developments. Some premises may open earlier as the results of detailed structural surveys come back.
The decision has been taken after remedial works taking place earlier today (Friday 8 April) at Oxgangs Primary School uncovered new issues relating to the school’s construction.
The Edinburgh Schools Partnership (ESP), who manage and operate the schools on behalf of the Council, and their technical experts were unable today (8 April) to give the Council sufficient guarantee that the schools are safe to open on Monday.
Contingency arrangements are being considered by education staff and developments will be updated to parents on Monday.
Parents should consider childcare arrangements for next week.
The premises that will be initially closed from Monday are as follows:
Schools: Braidburn, Broomhouse Primary, Castleview Primary, Craigour Park Primary, Craigmount High, Craigroyston Primary, Drummond Community High, Firrhill High, Forthview Primary, Gracemount High, Oxgangs Primary School, Pirniehill Primary, Rowanfield, Royal High, St David’s Primary, St Joseph’s Primary and St Peters RC Primary.
Other: Goodtrees Neighbourhood Centre and Howdenhall Secure Unit
Priority will be given to continue the preparations for S4, S5 and S6 students who are preparing for exams over the coming weeks.

[Hibs Class]

At least five high schools in there, less than four weeks until exams start for S4,5&6, and the council only looking at contingency on Monday. This is a failure in leadership of both current and past city council and unless they get the senior kids back to school within a day or so has the potential to be a major issue. Safety comes first, quite rightly, but the lack of contingency planning is appalling.

[Mr Grieves]

At least five high schools in there, less than four weeks until exams start for S4,5&6, and the council only looking at contingency on Monday. This is a failure in leadership of both current and past city council and unless they get the senior kids back to school within a day or so has the potential to be a major issue. Safety comes first, quite rightly, but the lack of contingency planning is appalling.
What a mess!

There are a few secondary schools that are well under capacity, I expect they'll provide facilities for all the kids that are sitting exams. As for the other kids, who knows? Some very difficult decisions to be made.

Hopefully there are financial penalties written into the contract for the two companies involved in building and maintenance of the schools.....

[hibsbollah]

Dear The Blair Govt.,

Thanks a lot.

Yours,
Everybody.

[Colr]

Dear The Blair Govt.,

Thaanks a lot.

Yours,
Everybody.

His government built a hell of a lot of new schools and hospitals.

[Beefster]

Dear The Blair Govt.,

Thanks a lot.

Yours,
Everybody.

That's an easy line for the council but presumably it's not PFI/PPP that caused these issues but the actual management of the project. I'm assuming that Edinburgh Council either managed it locally or appointed someone to do so?

[hibsbollah]

That's an easy line for the council but presumably it's not PFI/PPP that caused these issues but the actual management of the project. I'm assuming that Edinburgh Council either managed it locally or appointed someone to do so?

It's hardly an isolated incidence though. The problem lies with the policy of the time, which left a generation of tax payers picking up the bill under the guise of public works. CECs reputation of making a mess of most projects they get involved with precedes them, admittedly.

[ronaldo7]

Whilst hoping the local children in Edinburgh get back to school, it might enlighten some on here as to what transpired in the years leading up to the failures.

http://www.cips.org/en-GB/Supply-Management/News/2002/July/Scots-blast-PFI-pressure-over-schools/ …

[RyeSloan]

Whilst hoping the local children in Edinburgh get back to school, it might enlighten some on here as to what transpired in the years leading up to the failures. http://www.cips.org/en-GB/Supply-Management/News/2002/July/Scots-blast-PFI-pressure-over-schools/ …

PPI or no PPI this seems like a failure of building quality / standards. Maybe the method of funding the buildings had a role to play, maybe not but in the end of the day I would imagine the council would have signed off on the work themselves as well as having overall oversight of the whole process.

[ronaldo7]

PPI or no PPI this seems like a failure of building quality / standards. Maybe the method of funding the buildings had a role to play, maybe not but in the end of the day I would imagine the council would have signed off on the work themselves as well as having overall oversight of the whole process.

Or a failure of the system to oversee the process in which cash flowed to the private sector.:dunno:

[hibsbollah]

Or a failure of the system to oversee the process in which cash flowed to the private sector.:dunno:

Without a doubt. Open the government chequebook and close your eyes to the details. The market knows best.

[Hibs Class]

Or a failure of the system to oversee the process in which cash flowed to the private sector.:dunno:

The council is responsible for building standards, no question. The council is also responsible for delivering education, and for contingency planning. Against those responsibilities, both current and last councils have failed. Inexcusably, regardless of what diversions may be offered up.

[ronaldo7]

The council is responsible for building standards, no question. The council is also responsible for delivering education, and for contingency planning. Against those responsibilities, both current and last councils have failed. Inexcusably, regardless of what diversions may be offered up.

Where do we look next? It's not only the schools that were built under Labour's PPI schemes.

More to come here unfortunately.

[speedy_gonzales]

Every cloud and that, but at least the council isn't liable to the cost of any remedial work required due to the PPP1 contracts that are weighted heavily in the financiers favour(normally).
Whilst I don't profess to know what the perfect solution is, a lot of schools and a nice shiny new hospital were built under these schemes. At the time, money wasn't forthcoming from the government for capital projects and this mechanism allowed them to provide services for little initial outlay.
We'll all be paying for them for years to come but we have them now, what price can you put on education & health?
These PPP1 schemes, whilst grander in scale, aren't too dissimilar from PCP's when buying a car. You never own it, it's fully maintained by someone else at a fixed cost and at the end of the term you hand it back or buy it for a sum that more than likely means you'll have paid more in total than if you'd just paid cash up front, on day 1.

[Colr]

Or a failure of the system to oversee the process in which cash flowed to the private sector.:dunno:

And they will now be on the hook to fix the problem.

[marinello59]

Whilst hoping the local children in Edinburgh get back to school, it might enlighten some on here as to what transpired in the years leading up to the failures.

http://www.cips.org/en-GB/Supply-Management/News/2002/July/Scots-blast-PFI-pressure-over-schools/ …

If only they could clear themselves of all liability by letting a majority commitee declare that this was all unforeseeable.

[RyeSloan]

Or a failure of the system to oversee the process in which cash flowed to the private sector.:dunno:

Unless governments run their own publicly owned construction companies then any school built under any financial agreement you want would be money flowing to the private sector.

The new portobello school while fully funded directly from Edinburgh Council is being built by Balfour Beatty, a private company for example.

The concept of buildings being built, owned and maintained by other parties rather than the main occupants and users is really quite normal however don't get me wrong many PPI deals seemed borne out of a dogmatic approach. An approach that often seemed deliberately designed to get poor value for money but surely the ultimate finger of blame for that needs to point at those who procured those deals in the first place. The governments and councils in other words.

That said if there has been shortcuts taken then the contractors should be taken to task and no stone left unturned to get to the bottom of why we have a school that's only 10 years old suffering from such a dangerous defect.

[Colr]

Unless governments run their own publicly owned construction companies then any school built under any financial agreement you want would be money flowing to the private sector.

The new portobello school while fully funded directly from Edinburgh Council is being built by Balfour Beatty, a private company for example.

The concept of buildings being built, owned and maintained by other parties rather than the main occupants and users is really quite normal however don't get me wrong many PPI deals seemed borne out of a dogmatic approach. An approach that often seemed deliberately designed to get poor value for money but surely the ultimate finger of blame for that needs to point at those who procured those deals in the first place. The governments and councils in other words.

That said if there has been shortcuts taken then the contractors should be taken to task and no stone left unturned to get to the bottom of why we have a school that's only 10 years old suffering from such a dangerous defect.

The contractor will be liable for the costs of rectifying the defect as they own the building. There are heavy penalties for the schools not being available and compensation may also be due.

The public sector, on the whole, are very, very bad at procurement and managing costs.

[Colr]

I would note that all of Glasgows PFI secondary schools were built by Millar as well.

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see Andy Wightman getting torn in about this. I'm warming to this guy.:greengrin

https://t.co/d9OpoZfJDe

[AndyM_1875]

It would appear PFI hasn't gone. It's just changed its name.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/pfi-schools-saving-money-still-more-important-than-quality-on-controversial-scheme-s-replacement-1.933201

[ronaldo7]

It would appear PFI hasn't gone. It's just changed its name.

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/politics/pfi-schools-saving-money-still-more-important-than-quality-on-controversial-scheme-s-replacement-1.933201

It's all in the name. http://www.sps.ed.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/64353/NPDOs.pdf

I hope the Edinburgh council have a plan B. https://t.co/bcNlQISdRi

#Kidsnot(pfi short)cuts

[AndyM_1875]

It's all in the name. http://www.sps.ed.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/64353/NPDOs.pdf

I hope the Edinburgh council have a plan B. https://t.co/bcNlQISdRi

#Kidsnot(pfi short)cuts

NPD is just a rebrand and doesn't get round the thing that has caused the issue in the first place..... contractors taking short cuts on a public project to drive out the last bit of profit and doing a substandard job due to each contract being selected 60% on cost.

Lets hope this is one isolated incident. Although important to note Glasgow and Fife are also surveying their new schools and my own wee girl attends one of those schools built in 2007.

[Sergio sledge]

This isn't a failing of PFI as a method of financing projects, it is an intrinsic risk of contractor design and build projects as a rule. The contractor submits a fixed price to build the building to the specification and then employs design teams to go through the specification with a fine tooth comb to look for areas where savings can be made in order to maximise profits. Ideally it will be done in areas where it can be hidden so that they never have to tell the client and it will never be found out within the lifetime of the building or their guarantee. No matter the Government branding on the financing package, contractor D&B contracts will all be the same. In contractor D&B projects you need an air tight specification and a really tough client project manager who sits on the contractor to ensure they do absolutely everything they are contracted to do. Traditional contracts will always be better, more expensive but much easier to control the contractor and ensure quality is highest.

I'm working with a client just now who had a building constructed through contractor D&B and they've had to shell out thousands to sort out the heating and ventilation systems which were sub-standard but the client project manager didn't understand what he was signing off when the contractor came to him asking to change the specification.

[ronaldo7]

NPD is just a rebrand and doesn't get round the thing that has caused the issue in the first place..... contractors taking short cuts on a public project to drive out the last bit of profit and doing a substandard job due to each contract being selected 60% on cost.

Lets hope this is one isolated incident. Although important to note Glasgow and Fife are also surveying their new schools and my own wee girl attends one of those schools built in 2007.

I don't think it'll be the last we hear about it, and with 17 school buildings under investigation, I'd like to think all PFI/NPD contracts would be reviewed. Not only those covering schools, but all areas where they've been used.

[AndyM_1875]

I don't think it'll be the last we hear about it, and with 17 school buildings under investigation, I'd like to think all PFI/NPD contracts would be reviewed. Not only those covering schools, but all areas where they've been used.

I think you are right. Certainly there was a major survey going on at my daughter's school this morning at drop off time.

I believe the new hospitals in both Edinburgh (ERI) and Kirkcaldy (the Vic) were both built under PFI/NPD.

[ronaldo7]

I think you are right. Certainly there was a major survey going on at my daughter's school this morning at drop off time.

I believe the new hospitals in both Edinburgh (ERI) and Kirkcaldy (the Vic) were both built under PFI/NPD.

A couple of differences of the systems.

The Edinburgh Schools Partnership Limited (the company set up to deliver the Edinburgh school’s PFI/PPP project) made a pre-tax profit in the year to 31 March 2015 of £2,552,304 and distributed £1,058,530 in dividend payments to shareholders.

Under NPD, this is supposed to happen.

(1) Capped returns ensure that a “normal” level of investment return is made by the
private sector and that these returns are transparent;
(2) Operational surpluses generated by the Project Company are reinvested in the
public sector; and
(3) The public interest is represented in the governance of the NPD structure, which
increases transparency and accountability and facilitates a more pro-active and stable
partnership between public and private sector parties.

The Scottish Futures Trust is also a body established in 2008 to improve public infrastructure investment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Futures_Trust

If only the Scottish Government could issue bonds just like any other Independent Nation to invest for our future.:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

This isn't a failing of PFI as a method

I have to disagree Sergio, that's exactly what it is.

[Benny Brazil]

I have to disagree Sergio, that's exactly what it is.

I am not sure it is bollah - to my limited knowledge of this it seems to be more of a failure of any suitable and competent post completion checks and sign off.

Hope they get all this sorted soon for the kids sake regardless of who is to blame or who isnt.

[lucky]

PFI was an easy option to get projects built, a ridiculously expensive one and a wrong option in my opinion.

Millers who built these schools have a lot to answer for but surely the Education minister must bare some responsibility for allowing it to get to this stage? 9000 kids can't go to school because building are unsafe should be enough to see her sacked if she gets back to parliament.

[Moulin Yarns]

PFI was an easy option to get projects built, a ridiculously expensive one and a wrong option in my opinion.

Millers who built these schools have a lot to answer for but surely the Education minister must bare some responsibility for allowing it to get to this stage? 9000 kids can't go to school because building are unsafe should be enough to see her sacked if she gets back to parliament.

Remind me who put PPI/PFI contracts together to build these schools?

Remind me who was the main party at Holyrood when this happened?

Remind me how long ago these schools were built?

This debacle has nothing to do with the current Scottish administration. The builders and Council Building Control are those responsible for shoddy workmanship and not spotting it when it was being built.

[ronaldo7]

PFI was an easy option to get projects built, a ridiculously expensive one and a wrong option in my opinion.

Millers who built these schools have a lot to answer for but surely the Education minister must bare some responsibility for allowing it to get to this stage? 9000 kids can't go to school because building are unsafe should be enough to see her sacked if she gets back to parliament.

I can only think you've been down the pub last night having a pint. :wink:

I hope the kids get back to school asap, and it looks like the council have got plan B up and running for them to return by next Monday.

You may wish to reflect on your post this morning given £1.4Billion was returned by your party to Westminster whilst PFI contracts were being signed.

[lucky]

The SNP have been in power for over 8 years but don't want to take any responsibility over the state of the schools. The massive council cuts including to building control have happened on their watch. But don't worry independence is more important than our kids education

[CropleyWasGod]

The SNP have been in power for over 8 years but don't want to take any responsibility over the state of the schools. The massive council cuts including to building control have happened on their watch. But don't worry independence is more important than our kids education

It's the job of the Schools Partnership to maintain the schools. As the Council said yesterday, they will be held to account, and the Partnership have accepted responsibility.

[lucky]

It's the job of the Schools Partnership to maintain the schools. As the Council said yesterday, they will be held to account, and the Partnership have accepted responsibility.

Correct but the SSP report to the Scots Govt. If this was under any other party instead of the cult then the demand for the Education minister to go would be massive

[Moulin Yarns]

The SNP have been in power for over 8 years but don't want to take any responsibility over the state of the schools. The massive council cuts including to building control have happened on their watch. But don't worry independence is more important than our kids education

Building Control monitored the building of these schools, I presume you are referring to the cuts to Councils that have occurred in the period since these schools were built which would have no effect on the standards of Local Authority building Control staff.

Why even try to make political points when we should be more concerned about the pupils who are missing out on education as a result of mismanagement and cost cutting by a builder.

[lucky]

I agree the kids education is the most important point in all of this but there has to be responsibility that come with office and Angela Constance must be held accountable on this.

Good blog here from Dave Watson on PPP/PFI contracts
http://unisondave.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/lessons-to-be-learned-from-edinburgh.html?m=1

[Just Alf]

I'm confused a wee bit here Lucky!

How could what was effectively a design decision that ultimately was the wrong one be blamed on any particular politician? ... of whatever flavour.... even when it was made those in power at the time are unlikely to have been party to any "internal" discussions in the design and build process?



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[lucky]

Managing the maintenance of the schools ultimately falls onto her. It's her responsibility to ensure our kids have a safe environment to study. If this was under Labour my views would be the same.

[Geo_1875]

Managing the maintenance of the schools ultimately falls onto her. It's her responsibility to ensure our kids have a safe environment to study. If this was under Labour my views would be the same.

I take it you don't give her any credit for having the schools inspected then closed before anybody else was hurt or killed?

[ronaldo7]

Remind me who put PPI/PFI contracts together to build these schools?

Remind me who was the main party at Holyrood when this happened?

Remind me how long ago these schools were built?

This debacle has nothing to do with the current Scottish administration. The builders and Council Building Control are those responsible for shoddy workmanship and not spotting it when it was being built.

Ok.

This might help.

16373

[Moulin Yarns]

Managing the maintenance of the schools ultimately falls onto her. It's her responsibility to ensure our kids have a safe environment to study. If this was under Labour my views would be the same.

Managing the maintenance of the schools ultimately falls on the owners/Management company.

I work for a local authority based in a PPI building and it is ridiculous the hoops you have to go through to get anything sorted. The lease agreement is up in 2020 when we will vacate the building. Not got a clue who would move into it after we decant out.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok.

This might help.

16373

Thanks, but they were really rhetorical questions :wink:

[ronaldo7]

I agree the kids education is the most important point in all of this but there has to be responsibility that come with office and Angela Constance must be held accountable on this.

Good blog here from Dave Watson on PPP/PFI contracts
http://unisondave.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/lessons-to-be-learned-from-edinburgh.html?m=1

Angela wasn't even in Parliament when, the now, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale was in charge of your PFI scheme.

Stop digging, I think you're just jealous of her heals.:wink:

I did wonder what the Labour party thought about the Edinburgh Schools problems, thanks for enlightening me. I've not seen much of any of them on the MSM, unlike the FRB closures. I wonder why?

[ronaldo7]

Thanks, but they were really rhetorical questions :wink:

:greengrin:aok:

[Mr Grieves]

Managing the maintenance of the schools ultimately falls onto her. It's her responsibility to ensure our kids have a safe environment to study. If this was under Labour my views would be the same.

You're having a laugh! Are you really suggesting that buildings that are 10 years old would require maintenance to stop walls falling down? Here's an architect's opinion on carrying out checks on buildings, I'm sure he knows more than us -

Mr Fraser also spoke about the difficulty of carrying out checks on buildings.
“When everything is covered up it’s very hard to tell where these other problems might lie. You almost need to take a school to bits to find out that these issues are there. You don’t really understand there is a problem until something catastrophic goes wrong, as it has at Oxgangs which has led to all these other inspections.”

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/architect-malcolm-fraser-says-school-closures-show-folly-of-pfi-scheme-1-4097746#ixzz45cGjzLGE



This is all to do with build quality and the responsibility lies with the company who built the school and whatever council official signed off these buildings as being acceptable.

If you want to make it political, maybe we should look at who was in power when the schools were built and signed a contract that ties the hands of the current council, and any subsequent council, to pay ESP £12 million per year for the next 20 years.

[ronaldo7]

Update from the council for anyone who needs it.

http://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/schoolclosures

If only they'd built them with Lego Bricks.

[speedy_gonzales]

If only they'd built them with Lego Bricks.

Would everything then be awesome?

I agree with others, this is a builder not following design, or worse, cutting corners! Whilst you can argue amongst yourselves over the merits of PFI/PPP1, this faulty build issue is not a political one. However, I'd suspect it is the current governments responsibility to ensure all possible contingency plans for the pupils are looked in to by supporting the council and possibly overseeing any investigation in to what went wrong and why.

[Colr]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36027196

Same fault, same contractor although not PFI but conventional procurement!!

[RyeSloan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36027196 Same fault, same contractor although not PFI but conventional procurement!!

Which is exactly the point quite a few have been trying to make...how these schools were funded is a bit of a red herring.

If this was the USA the contractors would be in court already I reckon because this would appear to be a systemic failure (deliberate or not) in their quality control that has clearly put many young lives at risk.

[allmodcons]

I agree the kids education is the most important point in all of this but there has to be responsibility that come with office and Angela Constance must be held accountable on this.

Good blog here from Dave Watson on PPP/PFI contracts
http://unisondave.blogspot.co.uk/2016/04/lessons-to-be-learned-from-edinburgh.html?m=1

I couldn't let this one go!

"They were started by the Tories, developed by Labour and continued by the SNP, who have one of the largest PPP programmes in Europe".

Name me a single PPP programme signed by the SNP Government? Extremely misleading statement.

[AndyM_1875]

I couldn't let this one go!

"They were started by the Tories, developed by Labour and continued by the SNP, who have one of the largest PPP programmes in Europe".

Name me a single PPP programme signed by the SNP Government? Extremely misleading statement.

This?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ppp-deal-build-50m-college-1921869#uaY3Q6zVCRGbL68a.97

[Beefster]

I couldn't let this one go!

"They were started by the Tories, developed by Labour and continued by the SNP, who have one of the largest PPP programmes in Europe".

Name me a single PPP programme signed by the SNP Government? Extremely misleading statement.

Whilst they probably didn't sign it, I'm fairly sure that the SNP Administration has increased the amount of private cash being used to build the new Sick Kids. I'd call that a 'continuation'.

Edit:

"Despite the SNP‟s vociferous criticism of the previous administration‟s use of PPP/PFI, the Scottish Government has been taking it forward using NPD and via the hub programme, which uses Design Build Finance and Maintain (DBFM) PPP contracts for „community‟ facilities e.g. health centres, schools, police & fire services. Several projects originally set to use conventional public funding were recently switched to NPD (e.g. Edinburgh Sick Children‟s Hospital, Dumfries & Galloway Royal Infirmary, the Scottish Blood Transfusion Centre, Inverness College) and many schools NPD projects now come under hub. (Some school projects expected to receive capital funding have been switched to NPD/hub revenue funding.) Also, waste infrastructure contracts are based on English PFI ones and the National Housing Trust is a form of PPP."

Source: http://www.unison-scotland.org.uk/briefings/b016_PolicyBrief_PPPPFIinScotland_December11.pdf

[jd_and_coke]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7BZT8W8AE47Ad.jpg

[Colr]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7BZT8W8AE47Ad.jpg

So it wasn't Miller!!!

[Hibs Class]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7BZT8W8AE47Ad.jpg

I know it's not highlighted, but it is accurate to say that the SNP shut schools (along with the LibDems) and the consequences of this are still being felt.

[ronaldo7]

I know it's not highlighted, but it is accurate to say that the SNP shut schools (along with the LibDems) and the consequences of this are still being felt.

I know it's not highlighted, but is it accurate to say the SNP messed up the trams, when they didn't want them in the first place.:rolleyes:

[Hibs Class]

I know it's not highlighted, but is it accurate to say the SNP messed up the trams, when they didn't want them in the first place.:rolleyes:

I wasn't aiming to critique the whole leaflet, but the current debate is around schools so it seemed reasonable to make the observation. That said, I did fully expect that any criticism of SNP would be quickly challenged or distracted from, the only surprise was that it took almost an hour :rolleyes:

[ronaldo7]

I wasn't aiming to critique the whole leaflet, but the current debate is around schools so it seemed reasonable to make the observation. That said, I did fully expect that any criticism of SNP would be quickly challenged or distracted from, the only surprise was that it took almost an hour :rolleyes:

Just pointing out some flaws in her "Truth" Leaflet. Shame you're so touchy about it.:greengrin

[RyeSloan]

That leaflet reads like it was written by a 10 year old (which is probably harsh on 10 year olds). I love how Lesley has decided she knows how to save the planet, what investment the 'stalled' Scottish economy needs and washes her hands of anything to do with the trams...I wonder who was Lord Provost when the whole scheme was dreamed up (cost £375m!).

To top it all she will shout the loudest, which is of course clearly the key skill you want from your MSP.

[allmodcons]

This?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ppp-deal-build-50m-college-1921869#uaY3Q6zVCRGbL68a.97


Whilst they probably didn't sign it, I'm fairly sure that the SNP Administration has increased the amount of private cash being used to build the new Sick Kids. I'd call that a 'continuation'.

Edit:

"Despite the SNP‟s vociferous criticism of the previous administration‟s use of PPP/PFI, the Scottish Government has been taking it forward using NPD and via the hub programme, which uses Design Build Finance and Maintain (DBFM) PPP contracts for „community‟ facilities e.g. health centres, schools, police & fire services. Several projects originally set to use conventional public funding were recently switched to NPD (e.g. Edinburgh Sick Children‟s Hospital, Dumfries & Galloway Royal Infirmary, the Scottish Blood Transfusion Centre, Inverness College) and many schools NPD projects now come under hub. (Some school projects expected to receive capital funding have been switched to NPD/hub revenue funding.) Also, waste infrastructure contracts are based on English PFI ones and the National Housing Trust is a form of PPP."

Source: http://www.unison-scotland.org.uk/briefings/b016_PolicyBrief_PPPPFIinScotland_December11.pdf

Sorry, but NPD is not PPP/PFI.

Even the Daily Record makes the distinction.

NPD was developed by the SNP Government because of their opposition to PPP/PFI contracts. I'll agree that NPD is not ideal, but it's a lot less expensive than the PPP/PFI contracts embraced by Labour from around 1999 - 2007.

The quote I took umbrage to is completely misleading in that the writer aims to make a connection with the SNP to PPP/PFI contracts they did not sign up to and, because of onerous penalties, cannot break.

[ACLeith]

That leaflet reads like it was written by a 10 year old (which is probably harsh on 10 year olds). I love how Lesley has decided she knows how to save the planet, what investment the 'stalled' Scottish economy needs and washes her hands of anything to do with the trams...I wonder who was Lord Provost when the whole scheme was dreamed up (cost £375m!).

To top it all she will shout the loudest, which is of course clearly the key skill you want from your MSP.

The leaflet makes mention of the SNP 9 times, as well as including a personal insult about the SNP candidate. She claims to be the city's "Green Champion", which follows up a newsletter from them recently entitled "For a Greener world", in which they make the same claim at some length.

They must be really worried that Leith will vote against them for the first time in generations, so are pitching for the constituency vote that would otherwise go to the Greens. There is no way yet of telling how much of a personal vote Malcolm Chisholm had and which will switch away from a candidate many regard locally as toxic.

The leaflet, added to her performance at the recent hustings meeting in Leith, shows her up as an "old guard" type politician, hopefully the electorate see through that nowadays and are looking for something better.

[AndyM_1875]

Sorry, but NPD is not PPP/PFI.

Even the Daily Record makes the distinction.

NPD was developed by the SNP Government because of their opposition to PPP/PFI contracts. I'll agree that NPD is not ideal, but it's a lot less expensive than the PPP/PFI contracts embraced by Labour from around 1999 - 2007.

The quote I took umbrage to is completely misleading in that the writer aims to make a connection with the SNP to PPP/PFI contracts they did not sign up to and, because of onerous penalties, cannot break.

NPD is very much PPP/PFI

PFI was brought in by John Major's government, it was birthed by the Tories. Labour carried it on because at the time it was seen as an effective way to get public projects moving fast and in 1997 the infrastructure of the UK in terms of schools and hospitals was just about broken and needed major overhaul. Labour deserve severe criticism for not looking at the small print and their over confidence in the UK economy.

NPD is a rebrand of PPI/PPP, there are a few differences but the basics are the same. It's utter hypocrisy by the SNP to claim NPD is some wonderful new non PFI way of project financing. John Swinney himself said as much when he admitted to the Scottish Government's finance committee in December 2008 that NPD was very much part of the PFI family and that it does indeed involve profit being paid back to the Private Sector investors. The main difference is that NPD contracts are front loaded for profit rather than being dependent on risk as per the standard PFI model.

I'm not overly interested in which political party is peddling which myth. Also worth remembering that various councils across Scotland and the UK of all colours (Labour, SNP, Tory, Coalitions etc) have used PFI in its various forms to run projects.
Arguing about these projects whether they are PPP, PFI or NPD is pointless as far as I'm concerned.
They are all a rotten method of delivery.

[allmodcons]

NPD is very much PPP/PFI

PFI was brought in by John Major's government, it was birthed by the Tories. Labour carried it on because at the time it was seen as an effective way to get public projects moving fast and in 1997 the infrastructure of the UK in terms of schools and hospitals was just about broken and needed major overhaul. Labour deserve severe criticism for not looking at the small print and their over confidence in the UK economy.

NPD is a rebrand of PPI/PPP, there are a few differences but the basics are the same. It's utter hypocrisy by the SNP to claim NPD is some wonderful new non PFI way of project financing. John Swinney himself said as much when he admitted to the Scottish Government's finance committee in December 2008 that NPD was very much part of the PFI family and that it does indeed involve profit being paid back to the Private Sector investors. The main difference is that NPD contracts are front loaded for profit rather than being dependent on risk as per the standard PFI model.

I'm not overly interested in which political party is peddling which myth. Also worth remembering that various councils across Scotland and the UK of all colours (Labour, SNP, Tory, Coalitions etc) have used PFI in its various forms to run projects.
Arguing about these projects whether they are PPP, PFI or NPD is pointless as far as I'm concerned.
They are all a rotten method of delivery.

First off, I did not suggest that NPD is a wonderful new way of project financing, quite the opposite in fact. I said it wasn't ideal!

That said, NPD and PFI contracts are not one in the same and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. The main reason for the establishment of NPD was to eliminate uncapped equity returns being made (and still being made) on PFI contracts (i.e.- it is a more cost effective way for us, as taxpayers, to fund public infrastructure projects).

For what it's worth, nobody, the SNP Government included, has ever suggested that NPD is a not for profit model, but it's a damn site better than the PFI model which, as I'm sure you are aware, is going to cost us taxpayers a lot of money for a long time to come.

Final point, if not NPD, then what? I accept that schools, hospitals and roads have to be built. NPD isn't ideal, but what's your solution? Where does the money come from?

[AndyM_1875]

First off, I did not suggest that NPD is a wonderful new way of project financing, quite the opposite in fact. I said it wasn't ideal!

That said, NPD and PFI contracts are not one in the same and it is disingenuous of you to suggest otherwise. The main reason for the establishment of NPD was to eliminate uncapped equity returns being made (and still being made) on PFI contracts (i.e.- it is a more cost effective way for us, as taxpayers, to fund public infrastructure projects).

For what it's worth, nobody, the SNP Government included, has ever suggested that NPD is a not for profit model, but it's a damn site better than the PFI model which, as I'm sure you are aware, is going to cost us taxpayers a lot of money for a long time to come.

Final point, if not NPD, then what? I accept that schools, hospitals and roads have to be built. NPD isn't ideal, but what's your solution? Where does the money come from?

Then we are agreed on NPD/PFI, it's a horrible way to deliver projects.

Irrespective of the funding model, there are differences in all projects and some will be on better terms than others. My issue is with politicians and political mantra peddlers who say NPD isn't just another form of PFI when it patently is and has been admitted to be as much by the Scottish Government's Finance Minister.

As for solutions, there are none available outwith using Private Sector Finance capital. Perhaps PFI/NPD contracts over 5 years in age should be revisited and the terms attacked aggressively in renegotiation if at all possible. We live in an age where getting more value for the public purse is paramount as the country has just come through the deepest Global Recession since the 1930s. But lets be honest here, PFI/NPD in whatever form it takes isn't going away any time soon.

[allmodcons]

Then we are agreed on NPD/PFI, it's a horrible way to deliver projects.

Irrespective of the funding model, there are differences in all projects and some will be on better terms than others. My issue is with politicians and political mantra peddlers who say NPD isn't just another form of PFI when it patently is and has been admitted to be as much by the Scottish Government's Finance Minister.

As for solutions, there are none available outwith using Private Sector Finance capital. Perhaps PFI/NPD contracts over 5 years in age should be revisited and the terms attacked aggressively in renegotiation if at all possible. We live in an age where getting more value for the public purse is paramount as the country has just come through the deepest Global Recession since the 1930s. But lets be honest here, PFI/NPD in whatever form it takes isn't going away any time soon.

Final word on the matter from me. We are agreed PFI is a horrible way to deliver projects! NPD, for me, isn't ideal but, given the lack of borrowing powers available to the Scottish Government, is an improvement on PFI.

[Colr]

One of the good things about PFI was the way lifecycle costs were taken into account at the start with the design and the maintenace costs locked into the contract.

Prior to that some bizarre way capital and revenue expenditure where divorced leading to decision which saved money on the contract (capital) but cost a fortune in running costs over the buildings lifetime. Repairs budgets were previously often inadequate and were plundered for other priorities leaving the buildings in a terrible state- politicians will always be more interested in cutting the ribbon on that new facility than renewed fascias after all.

Teachers tend to make better educationalists than building managers as well.

[BroxburnHibee]

Has a public inquiry been announced yet.

[ronaldo7]

In 2007, Labour put out a 13 page anti-manifesto, attacking the SNP manifesto, including a page on PPI.

16390


It seems even Labour knew the SNP would scrap PPI in the form it was in then.

[RyeSloan]

I see it now transpires that the Council didn't inspect these buildings as all! It appears the contractors could self cert the adherence to building refs and effectively issue their own completion certificate...wow you really couldn't make that up!

[Colr]

I see it now transpires that the Council didn't inspect these buildings as all! It appears the contractors could self cert the adherence to building refs and effectively issue their own completion certificate...wow you really couldn't make that up!

I' m more suprised that the funders didn' t inspect given they're on the hook for all of this expense!! It was Bank of Scotland, though.

[ronaldo7]

https://t.co/oxC0gS1Kls

Interesting read.

The Scottish Futures Trust are making some decent savings. More reading here.

http://www.scottishfuturestrust.org.uk/news/sfts-work-for-2014-15-delivers-135m-benefit/

[Kato]

I see it now transpires that the Council didn't inspect these buildings as all! It appears the contractors could self cert the adherence to building refs and effectively issue their own completion certificate...wow you really couldn't make that up!

It hasn't changed my mind about the council, just confirmed that they are in fact morons. I know it was the current council's predecessors but they all look, sound and act the same way - parochial Pontius Pilates washing their hands when anything goes wrong....and, yet again, the PFI scheme smacks of something from which lots of pauchle could be accrued.

[Hibernia&Alba]

PFI is a disgraceful waste of taxpayer money. We end up paying multiple times the cost for the facilities built, and all just to diddle the public spending figures and spread the cost. It's basically hire purchase of new buildings for public services, which makes the builders a fortune. We've seen in Edinburgh the cost cutting that can take place and which impacts upon quality, as private contractors try to squeeze every penny of profit out of it. Tories and New Labour both complicit.

[Bishop Hibee]

I have heard that while council staff who enter the affected schools are required to wear high visibility vests and hard hats, cleaners, dinner ladies and janitors who are working for the contractor who runs these services are in the schools without protective gear. 'Encouraged' not to make a fuss no doubt. What a cleaner is doing in a school with no staff or kids is another matter apart from cleaning up after the catering staff who are making sandwiches for affected kids.

The whole thing is a bonanza for taxi drivers and coach operators who are ferrying children and staff all over the city. A lot of primary kids losing at least an hour a day schooling too. What's a single parent on a low wage meant to do if their kid has a local dental appointment in the morning and they can't get the bus to their new place of study? Are the council or GallifordTry liable? A lawyer's paradise.

This one will run and run. I'll be surprised if everything is back to normal by the start of the 2016/17 term. A lot of spare capacity being used at present will not be available then as school roles are rising all over the city.

Shambles.

[ronaldo7]

I wonder if this is linked to the Labour PFI deals or it's just alleged corruption in the procurement process, just like the brown envelopes in Edinburgh.

http://stv.tv/news/west-central/1351523-council-corruption-probe-over-extremely-serious-allegations/