1916 Centenary. The Rising and an Edinburgh lad

[ronaldo7]

Nice to see a country celebrate their Independence.

I went to Kilmainham Gaol a few years back, and was taken aback with the treatment of the people there. I went round with friends from Ireland, and nobody can fail to see the atrocity that the British state perpetrated on the inmates.

It was very sad to hear the way James Connolly was killed(an Edinburgh Lad) who was instrumental in the Rising, when he was raised by British soldiers from a chair (whilst injured), and a white marker placed over his heart, and then shot by firing squad.

During our journey, the courtyard was very quiet and eerie, however the most intensive part of the tour was when we arrived in the cell that Grace Gifford married Joseph Plunkett prior to him being executed by the British.

I'd recommend anyone to do the tour of Kilmainham if in Dublin. It shows you what the British state got up to in the those dark days.

[marinello59]

It's a trip I hope to do one day.

[ronaldo7]

It's a trip I hope to do one day.

The lad taking us round was the grandson of one of the martyrs (can't remember which one), but when we got out to the courtyard, their was a cross placed in the corner where Connolly was shot dead. It's well worth the visit. The walls of the Gaol are about 6 ft thick, very cold and you can imagine the time the inmates had in the early 1900's

[steakbake]

I've been there a couple of times.

I think the fact that Connelly is largely unknown and certainly uncelebrated in his city of birth speaks volumes. Had he been pivotal in the freedom of the US or somewhere else, we'd be flogging "wha's like us" teatowels with his face on it.

[offshorehibby]

Ronnie, it certainly is a good tour, i've been on it before. The last couple of times K and I have been in Dublin there's been a lot of work getting done, hopefully next time we'll make it again.

Watching some of the commemorations over the last couple of days, what i fancy is the rising walking tours, i'm surprised i've not come across them any time i've been in Dublin, gives us an excuse for a few days there.

[ronaldo7]

Ronnie, it certainly is a good tour, i've been on it before. The last couple of times K and I have been in Dublin there's been a lot of work getting done, hopefully next time we'll make it again.

Watching some of the commemorations over the last couple of days, what i fancy is the rising walking tours, i'm surprised i've not come across them any time i've been in Dublin, gives us an excuse for a few days there.

Not seen the walking tours either J. Give me a shout if you're going over again, and I'll see if I can get some details on them.:aok:

[NAE NOOKIE]

I've been there a couple of times.

I think the fact that Connelly is largely unknown and certainly uncelebrated in his city of birth speaks volumes. Had he been pivotal in the freedom of the US or somewhere else, we'd be flogging "wha's like us" teatowels with his face on it.

Probably the truest thing ever posted on here.

[offshorehibby]

The James Connolly march was a regular occurrence down the Grassmarket and through the Cowgate. There's still a memorial every year where the James Connolly plaque is mounted (round about Sneaky Petes) run by the James Connolly Society (Edinburgh)

https://jamesconnollysociety.com/category/edinburgh/

[JimBHibees]

Watched a programme with the guy from Mrs Browns boys who had relatives who were part of the Easter rising. Well worth a watch.

[Moulin Yarns]

Watched a programme with the guy from Mrs Browns boys who had relatives who were part of the Easter rising. Well worth a watch.

An uncle of my wife's granny was apparently involved in the GPO siege.

[steakbake]

The James Connolly march was a regular occurrence down the Grassmarket and through the Cowgate. There's still a memorial every year where the James Connolly plaque is mounted (round about Sneaky Petes) run by the James Connolly Society (Edinburgh)

https://jamesconnollysociety.com/category/edinburgh/

It was indeed, but it was always a fringe element that supported it. Connelly has not been accepted as a famous son of the city though by the mainstream of society. It has more to do with latent anti-Irish sentiment in Scottish society, which identifies its interests more closely with wider British interests. Equally, those who have traditionally kept his memory going have had specific views which are harder to understand and support without more in depth knowledge or a specific perspective. In this way, he's not been an accessible historical figure.

I'd like to think in time, civil life in general might take a more generous view and recognise him a bit better than a plaque tucked out of the way under a bridge and permitting the occasional march.

[AndyM_1875]

Dublin is a trip that I have fancied doing for a long time. Was meant to go for the Scotland game last summer but it all fell through. There are so many things I would like to do there and a visit to Kilmainham Gaol would be one of them. Apart from all that Dublin is supposed to be a great city for walking around in.

Also as Thin Lizzy were my favourite band growing up a personal pilgrimage to the grave of Phil Lynott would be on the agenda too.

[One Day Soon]

Dublin is a trip that I have fancied doing for a long time. Was meant to go for the Scotland game last summer but it all fell through. There are so many things I would like to do there and a visit to Kilmainham Gaol would be one of them. Apart from all that Dublin is supposed to be a great city for walking around in.

Also as Thin Lizzy were my favourite band growing up a personal pilgrimage to the grave of Phil Lynott would be on the agenda too.

You have excellent musical taste. I only discovered recently that 'The Boys Are Back in Town' title arose from the return to Manchester of one of that city's most infamous criminal gangs and their presence at Lynott's mother's pub.

[hibsbollah]

It would be great if Connolly could be properly celebrated by the city and his club. Unfortunately there's just too much residual prejudice around for that to happen.

[CropleyWasGod]

It would be great if Connolly could be properly celebrated by the city and his club. Unfortunately there's just too much residual prejudice around for that to happen.
Was he actually a Hibby? Or is that just a general assumption?

Watched a great documentary on the Easter Rising on BBC4 last night BTW.

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[phoenixfire]

He was indeed a. Hibby and a ex ball boy
He apparently enquired by mail on the latest results
When he was in the. Usa

[CropleyWasGod]

He was indeed a. Hibby and a ex ball boy
He apparently enquired by mail on the latest results
When he was in the. Usa
Cheers, I didn't know that :)

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[marinello59]

Cheers, I didn't know that :)

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I've read up a lot on James Connolly, a true hero, but I reckon the Hibs thing may have been slightly over egged to say the least. :greengrin

[CropleyWasGod]

I've read up a lot on James Connolly, a true hero, but I reckon the Hibs thing may have been slightly over egged to say the least. :greengrin

Do the Tic claim him as well?

[hibsbollah]

Was he actually a Hibby? Or is that just a general assumption?

Watched a great documentary on the Easter Rising on BBC4 last night BTW.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

:agree: brilliant tv.

[marinello59]

Do the Tic claim him as well?

I doubt it, they don't really know their history.:greengrin

[stu in nottingham]

I've read up a lot on James Connolly, a true hero, but I reckon the Hibs thing may have been slightly over egged to say the least. :greengrin

I don't personally feel as though it was overstated, J. Well documented in Lugton and elsewhere.

'One of Hibernian FC's most famous supporters was born on the Cowgate to Irish parents in June 1868. James Connolly, the socialist revolutionary leader executed for his part in the 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin, was a fanatical Hibby.It is said that even though his mind was often on greater things, he would fall into black depressions when Hibs were beaten. Connolly was said to have been at the formation of Hibs in St Mary's Street Halls, and his lifelong support for the club is documented by Hibs historian Alan Lugton.

He described how, as a 12-year-old, Connolly would carry the players' kits down to Easter Road in return for a sixpence and free admission to the match. He also carried out hundreds of odd jobs at the ground.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/god-squad-signs-up-to-play-host-to-hibs-past-1-994423

'O’Brien suggests that it should be a matter of pride to their fans that the first Irish club in Scotland were Hibernian of Edinburgh, and they certainly had one of the Emerald Isle’s notable figures among early supporters - socialist leader James Connolly. "If he heard that Hibs had lost, he was absolutely sick for the weekend," adds O’Brien.'

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/whose-grass-roots-are-the-greener-1-1288245

[Mr White]

Did hibs play at easter road in 1880?

[Pretty Boy]

Did hibs play at easter road in 1880?

Hibernian Park, which was on what is now Bothwell Street. Incidentally it was there we beat Preston to become 'world champions'.

We got a lease on Easter Road, the land was then known as Drum Park, in 1892 and started playing there in 93. There was talk of a move to Piershill but the North British Railway blocked it as they had plans to build a railway line through the land (it never happened) and even a flirtation with the idea of moving to Aberdeen. It was only in the early 1920s that we signed a long term lease and began real developments on the ground.

[Mr White]

Hibernian Park, which was on what is now Bothwell Street. Incidentally it was there we beat Preston to become 'world champions'.

We got a lease on Easter Road, the land was then known as Drum Park, in 1892 and started playing there in 93. There was talk of a move to Piershill but the North British Railway blocked it as they had plans to build a railway line through the land (it never happened) and even a flirtation with the idea of moving to Aberdeen. It was only in the early 1920s that we signed a long term lease and began real developments on the ground.

Cheers, i thought we were still kicking about in the meadows around that time.

[AndyM_1875]

Hibernian Park, which was on what is now Bothwell Street. Incidentally it was there we beat Preston to become 'world champions'.

We got a lease on Easter Road, the land was then known as Drum Park, in 1892 and started playing there in 93. There was talk of a move to Piershill but the North British Railway blocked it as they had plans to build a railway line through the land (it never happened) and even a flirtation with the idea of moving to Aberdeen. It was only in the early 1920s that we signed a long term lease and began real developments on the ground.

I've wondered what Hibernian Park would have looked like. I take it there are no old photos and there was no stand of any real sort. More like a pitch which was roped off to spectators, some grass banking? :confused:

[Hibernia&Alba]

Was he actually a Hibby? Or is that just a general assumption?

Watched a great documentary on the Easter Rising on BBC4 last night BTW.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


James Connolly was certainly a Hibs supporter; the club in its early years was, of course, aligned with the Irish home rule movement.

I would recommend C Desmond Greaves biography of Connolly to anyone wanting a good read. The story of his execution is, as you'd expect, very poignant and exemplifies his courage, as his final words to his wife reveal:
"Hasn't it been a full life, Lillie; and isn't this a fitting end"?

He experienced a lot of tragedy in his life, but always maintained the faith that his socialist ideals were worth fighting for.

[marinello59]

I don't personally feel as though it was overstated, J. Well documented in Lugton and elsewhere.

'One of Hibernian FC's most famous supporters was born on the Cowgate to Irish parents in June 1868. James Connolly, the socialist revolutionary leader executed for his part in the 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin, was a fanatical Hibby.It is said that even though his mind was often on greater things, he would fall into black depressions when Hibs were beaten. Connolly was said to have been at the formation of Hibs in St Mary's Street Halls, and his lifelong support for the club is documented by Hibs historian Alan Lugton.

He described how, as a 12-year-old, Connolly would carry the players' kits down to Easter Road in return for a sixpence and free admission to the match. He also carried out hundreds of odd jobs at the ground.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/god-squad-signs-up-to-play-host-to-hibs-past-1-994423

'O’Brien suggests that it should be a matter of pride to their fans that the first Irish club in Scotland were Hibernian of Edinburgh, and they certainly had one of the Emerald Isle’s notable figures among early supporters - socialist leader James Connolly. "If he heard that Hibs had lost, he was absolutely sick for the weekend," adds O’Brien.'

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/whose-grass-roots-are-the-greener-1-1288245

I'm not saying he wasn't a Hibs supporter, I'm just suggesting some of the details might be a wee bit exaggerated.
For instance I have seen the suggestion that he was in the room when the initial meeting was held to form the club repeated as fact. He would have been 6 or 7. Its all harmeless stuff though and really has little to do with the mans legacy.

[bigwheel]

I'm not saying he wasn't a Hibs supporter, I'm just suggesting some of the details might be a wee bit exaggerated.
For instance I have seen the suggestion that he was in the room when the initial meeting was held to form the club repeated as fact. He would have been 6 or 7. Its all harmeless stuff though and really has little to do with the mans legacy.

As you will recall the suggestion of him being in attendance in that meeting came on here from a poster - most of the other chronicled stories are about his invoked and continued interested long after he left Edinburgh - seem very credible to me


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[marinello59]

As you will recall the suggestion of him being in attendance in that meeting came on here from a poster - most of the other chronicled stories are about his invoked and continued interested long after he left Edinburgh - seem very credible to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not doubting he was a Hibs supporter.
It was mentioned by another poster on here he was a ballboy. Did they even have them the early days and if they did would there have been a record kept?
I will be very careful about questioning Lugton had said, safer to question the Koran than him here. :greengrin. However given that James Connolly was in full time employment as an 11/12 year old child it does see to be stretching things a bit to suggest that he also did hundreds of jobs around the ground at that age as well.
It doesn't matter really, nice stories but really a side note to what the great man was all about.

[NAE NOOKIE]

James Connolly was certainly a Hibs supporter; the club in its early years was, of course, aligned with the Irish home rule movement.

I would recommend C Desmond Greaves biography of Connolly to anyone wanting a good read. The story of his execution is, as you'd expect, very poignant and exemplifies his courage, as his final words to his wife reveal:
"Hasn't it been a full life, Lillie; and isn't this a fitting end"?

He experienced a lot of tragedy in his life, but always maintained the faith that his socialist ideals were worth fighting for.

In what way?

[marinello59]

James Connolly was certainly a Hibs supporter; the club in its early years was, of course, aligned with the Irish home rule movement.

I would recommend C Desmond Greaves biography of Connolly to anyone wanting a good read. The story of his execution is, as you'd expect, very poignant and exemplifies his courage, as his final words to his wife reveal:
"Hasn't it been a full life, Lillie; and isn't this a fitting end"?

He experienced a lot of tragedy in his life, but always maintained the faith that his socialist ideals were worth fighting for.


In what way?

Phew.
Right everyone, ignore my contribution to this thread and concentrate on this exchange. :thumbsup:

[Hibernia&Alba]

In what way?

Hibernian was established by young Irishmen in Edinburgh who, like their wider community in Britain, found themselves excluded from mainstream society. As in the rest of Britain, the Irish in Edinburgh found themselves regarded as the lowest of the low: as savages with their widespread illiteracy and faith in Roman Catholicism: the 'smells and bells' and 'Popery' that Scotland (and England) had supposedly banished during the Reformation. Accordingly, the prejudice was met by those who found themselves excluded from even playing football against the indigenous population, with the establishment of their own club; a club that recognised the Irish in Scotland to the extent that a sectarian signing policy went with it. Not that I could ever acquiesce with such a policy in 2016! Those attitudes went beyond the signing of players and club employees but was extended to the burning issue of late Victorian Britain: namely Irish home rule. The very name Hibernian nailed the club's colours to the mast (literally) and represented the aspirations of many of the Irish in Scotland. Those who found themselves on the receiving end of ignorance demanded their humanity be recognised, which included the demand of those who had established Scotland's Irish football club to have their home country govern itself. Connolly was one of those who regarded the destiny his football club intertwined with that of Ireland; indeed as a representation of the issue, just as those who formed the club did the same. Those who initially rallied to Hibernian were fully cognisant of the wider issues and acted accordingly.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Phew.
Right everyone, ignore my contribution to this thread and concentrate on this exchange. :thumbsup:

Ach .. you know I had to.

The not unreasonable assumption that many, most of, all of? Hibs players and staff and many of its supporters were almost certainly sympathetic to the Irish republican cause in the late 19th early 20th century does not mean that "the club was aligned" to anything .... that statement implies that the club had stated somewhere in its constitution or published records that 'Hibernian football club supports the cause of Irish independence' ...... If anybody can show me such a recorded statement I'll be happy to change my mind.

There's not much doubt that the young James Connolly was indeed a Hibs fan ..... But apart from that and a general consensus around the club that an independent Ireland was a good thing that's where our part in 'the struggle' begins and ends I would imagine ..... IMHO saying the club was 'aligned' to the cause of Irish independence is gilding the Lilly somewhat.

I have little time for attempts to embellish the clubs history, my favourite being: 'the young Michael Whelan went to St Patrick's church to pray for guidance and it was there he remembered The Ancient Order of Hibernians'

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ach .. you know I had to.

The not unreasonable assumption that many, most of, all of? Hibs players and staff and many of its supporters were almost certainly sympathetic to the Irish republican cause in the late 19th early 20th century does not mean that "the club was aligned" to anything .... that statement implies that the club had stated somewhere in its constitution or published records that 'Hibernian football club supports the cause of Irish independence' ...... If anybody can show me such a recorded statement I'll be happy to change my mind.

There's not much doubt that the young James Connolly was indeed a Hibs fan ..... But apart from that and a general consensus around the club that an independent Ireland was a good thing that's where our part in 'the struggle' begins and ends I would imagine ..... IMHO saying the club was 'aligned' to the cause of Irish independence is gilding the Lilly somewhat.

I have little time for attempts to embellish the clubs history, my favourite being: 'the young Michael Whelan went to St Patrick's church to pray for guidance and it was there he remembered The Ancient Order of Hibernians'

Irish Republicanism was very different to Home Rule. Connolly was certainly a Republican, as 1916 demonstrated, but that was distinct (more radical) from the Home Rule movement that was backed by Gladstone and the Liberal Party of the late nineteenth century. Those who formed Hibernian were certainly in the Home Rule camp, as you'd expect, but an Irish republic was a very different concept in 1875. We are talking a forty year gap between 1875 and 1916, and the First World War changed everything.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Hibernian was established by young Irishmen in Edinburgh who, like their wider community in Britain, found themselves excluded from mainstream society. As in the rest of Britain, the Irish in Edinburgh found themselves regarded as the lowest of the low: as savages with their widespread illiteracy and faith in Roman Catholicism: the 'smells and bells' and 'Popery' that Scotland (and England) had supposedly banished during the Reformation. Accordingly, the prejudice was met by those who found themselves excluded from even playing football against the indigenous population, with the establishment of their own club; a club that recognised the Irish in Scotland to the extent that a sectarian signing policy went with it. Not that I could ever acquiesce with such a policy in 2016! Those attitudes went beyond the signing of players and club employees but was extended to the burning issue of late Victorian Britain: namely Irish home rule. The very name Hibernian nailed the club's colours to the mast (literally) and represented the aspirations of many of the Irish in Scotland. Those who found themselves on the receiving end of ignorance demanded their humanity be recognised, which included the demand of those who had established Scotland's Irish football club to have their home country govern itself. Connolly was one of those who regarded the destiny his football club intertwined with that of Ireland; indeed as a representation of the issue, just as those who formed the club did the same. Those who initially rallied to Hibernian were fully cognisant of the wider issues and acted accordingly.

In general I don't disagree with any of that ............ like many Hibs fans I'm well aware of the trials and tribulations of Edinburgh's Irish population and as I said earlier I'm sure the sympathy of the clubs staff and followers were overwhelmingly only in one direction.

The inference here though is that in some way Hibernian was a vehicle being used to push or promote the cause of Irish independence, all I'm asking for is some evidence in writing that this was the case ..... in this area as far as I'm concerned the clubs name is purely coincidental, there is certainly no evidence that it was chosen for any other reason than to reflect the Irish heritage of the clubs founders, and certainly not to show to the world that Hibernian FC from the word go had the cause of Irish independence at the forefront of its thinking or purpose as a football club .... You would be as well saying that London Scottish rugby club is aligned to the cause of Scottish independence .... perhaps many of its players and fans are, but that doesn't make the club as an entity 'aligned' to that cause.

While we are making assumptions something struck me. During the Scottish referendum a lot was made of the fact that a load of scare stories had been put about that folk from Poland etc might be shipped back home en masse if as a result of independence Scotland wasn't part of the EU.

I wonder if the first generation Irish immigrants were living under the fear that if Ireland did become independent their right to reside in Britain would be revoked and they would be shipped back to where they had come from ......... its not unreasonable I would think that many of them did live with that fear and therefore had an affect on their enthusiasm to see Ireland set free. Its a fact that prior to 1916 there was not universal support in Southern Ireland itself for independence from Britain.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Irish Republicanism was very different to Home Rule. Connolly was certainly a Republican, as 1916 demonstrated, but that was distinct (more radical) from the Home Rule movement that was backed by Gladstone and the Liberal Party of the late nineteenth century. Those who formed Hibernian were certainly in the Home Rule camp, as you'd expect, but an Irish republic was a very different concept in 1875. We are talking a forty year gap between 1875 and 1916, and the First World War changed everything.

I don't think the home rule / republican distinction really matters in the context of the debate.

[Hibernia&Alba]

In general I don't disagree with any of that ............ like many Hibs fans I'm well aware of the trials and tribulations of Edinburgh's Irish population and as I said earlier I'm sure the sympathy of the clubs staff and followers were overwhelmingly only in one direction.

The inference here though is that in some way Hibernian was a vehicle being used to push or promote the cause of Irish independence, all I'm asking for is some evidence in writing that this was the case ..... in this area as far as I'm concerned the clubs name is purely coincidental, there is certainly no evidence that it was chosen for any other reason than to reflect the Irish heritage of the clubs founders, and certainly not to show to the world that Hibernian FC from the word go had the cause of Irish independence at the forefront of its thinking or purpose as a football club .... You would be as well saying that London Scottish rugby club is aligned to the cause of Scottish independence .... perhaps many of its players and fans are, but that doesn't make the club as an entity 'aligned' to that cause.

While we are making assumptions something struck me. During the Scottish referendum a lot was made of the fact that a load of scare stories had been put about that folk from Poland etc might be shipped back home en masse if as a result of independence Scotland wasn't part of the EU.

I wonder if the first generation Irish immigrants were living under the fear that if Ireland did become independent their right to reside in Britain would be revoked and they would be shipped back to where they had come from ......... its not unreasonable I would think that many of them did live with that fear and therefore had an affect on their enthusiasm to see Ireland set free. Its a fact that prior to 1916 there was not universal support in Ireland itself for independence from Britain.

There is no correlation between Hibernian and London Scottish. When Hibernian was formed, the issue of Home Rule in Ireland was the burning issue of the day, and indeed it destroyed Gladstone's final government. The formation of Hibernian wasn't just 'coincidental' but was part of the political firmament of the era. That isn't to suggest it was a political party, rather it was a manifestation of the political discourse that dominated the period. It was no coincidence that the name and colours were chosen; indeed it would have been far easier to avoid any such connotations, but Hibs was a statement about the Irish in Scotland, and how their plight in everyday life was adjoined to the political discourse of the day. Connolly, like most Hibs fans of his era, knew full well that sport could represent wider goals, creating identity, and knew of the context in which the club was formed.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I don't think the home rule / republican distinction really matters in the context of the debate.

It certainly matters, NN. Home Rule was devolution, whereas a republic was full independence minus monarch; indeed a socialist Ireland, according to the 1916 proclamation. When Hibs were formed, Home Rule was constitutional, supported by the Liberal Party in Westminster, but a republic wasn't on the table. Decades later it was the idea of the republic that Connolly and his ilk paid for with their lives.

[Colr]

Ach .. you know I had to.

The not unreasonable assumption that many, most of, all of? Hibs players and staff and many of its supporters were almost certainly sympathetic to the Irish republican cause in the late 19th early 20th century does not mean that "the club was aligned" to anything .... that statement implies that the club had stated somewhere in its constitution or published records that 'Hibernian football club supports the cause of Irish independence' ...... If anybody can show me such a recorded statement I'll be happy to change my mind.

There's not much doubt that the young James Connolly was indeed a Hibs fan ..... But apart from that and a general consensus around the club that an independent Ireland was a good thing that's where our part in 'the struggle' begins and ends I would imagine ..... IMHO saying the club was 'aligned' to the cause of Irish independence is gilding the Lilly somewhat.

I have little time for attempts to embellish the clubs history, my favourite being: 'the young Michael Whelan went to St Patrick's church to pray for guidance and it was there he remembered The Ancient Order of Hibernians'


The club was formed as a social enterprise to help young Irish men not as a political organisation.

[NAE NOOKIE]

The club was formed as a social enterprise to help young Irish men not as a political organisation.

Dinnae tell me mate, tell Hibernia&Alba :rolleyes:

[NAE NOOKIE]

It certainly matters, NN. Home Rule was devolution, whereas a republic was full independence minus monarch; indeed a socialist Ireland, according to the 1916 proclamation. When Hibs were formed, Home Rule was constitutional, supported by the Liberal Party in Westminster, but a republic wasn't on the table. Decades later it was the idea of the republic that Connolly and his ilk paid for with their lives.

Thanks once again for the history lesson H&A ........ The point in question isn't what form of Irish independence Hibs 'supported' be that home rule or a full blown republic. Its not even whether the vast majority of people involved with the club including its supporters were in favour of home rule or a republic because the answer is obvious.

If I read somewhere that a body or organization is or was 'aligned' to a cause, especially a political one, I expect to see some evidence that the entity concerned ( in this case Hibernian football club ) had made a statement to that effect, either in its own records or in a verbal statement quoted by the press or some other independent observer at the time.

There is no doubt that the Irish people involved with Hibs could be viewed as 'aligned' to the cause of home rule in as much as that is a reasonable assumption to make. That does not translate to the football club being active in the matter.

In the end I suppose it comes down to semantics ..... IMO to say the 'club' was "of course closely aligned with the Irish home rule movement" suggests that somewhere down the line Hibs as an organization had publicly stated that it was in support of that cause and had taken an active role in the promotion of it. To my mind it would be a better use of language to say that the club was 'viewed' as being closely aligned with the Irish home rule movement, a small but important distinction.

The reason for my objection to stuff like this I have made clear a number of times on here ...... In my opinion what I am seeing ( and I am not saying it is always deliberate ) are statements being made about the history of the club which embellish that history with supposed meaning or 'facts' about it which for the most part are purely conjecture.

I know that some people wont agree with what is after all only my personal opinion, but as far as I'm concerned the history of Hibernian football club is remarkable enough without attempts being made, be they unintended or not, to ( for want of a better expression ) tart it up.

[JeMeSouviens]

Thanks once again for the history lesson H&A ........ The point in question isn't what form of Irish independence Hibs 'supported' be that home rule or a full blown republic. Its not even whether the vast majority of people involved with the club including its supporters were in favour of home rule or a republic because the answer is obvious.

If I read somewhere that a body or organization is or was 'aligned' to a cause, especially a political one, I expect to see some evidence that the entity concerned ( in this case Hibernian football club ) had made a statement to that effect, either in its own records or in a verbal statement quoted by the press or some other independent observer at the time.

There is no doubt that the Irish people involved with Hibs could be viewed as 'aligned' to the cause of home rule in as much as that is a reasonable assumption to make. That does not translate to the football club being active in the matter.

In the end I suppose it comes down to semantics ..... IMO to say the 'club' was "of course closely aligned with the Irish home rule movement" suggests that somewhere down the line Hibs as an organization had publicly stated that it was in support of that cause and had taken an active role in the promotion of it. To my mind it would be a better use of language to say that the club was 'viewed' as being closely aligned with the Irish home rule movement, a small but important distinction.

The reason for my objection to stuff like this I have made clear a number of times on here ...... In my opinion what I am seeing ( and I am not saying it is always deliberate ) are statements being made about the history of the club which embellish that history with supposed meaning or 'facts' about it which for the most part are purely conjecture.

I know that some people wont agree with what is after all only my personal opinion, but as far as I'm concerned the history of Hibernian football club is remarkable enough without attempts being made, be they unintended or not, to ( for want of a better expression ) tart it up.

Haven't got my Lugtons to hand, but wasn't support or non-support for the Home Rule movement (there effectively was no separate Irish Republicanism at that time, the Fenians and IRB had mostly thrown in their lot with the Home Rulers, kind of like a 19th century gradualist SNP) part of the reason for the "Hibs pause" around 1891? The committee of Hibs being split between churchmen opposed to political involvement and others more in favour?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Haven't got my Lugtons to hand, but wasn't support or non-support for the Home Rule movement (there effectively was no separate Irish Republicanism at that time, the Fenians and IRB had mostly thrown in their lot with the Home Rulers, kind of like a 19th century gradualist SNP) part of the reason for the "Hibs pause" around 1891? The committee of Hibs being split between churchmen opposed to political involvement and others more in favour?

Honestly no idea mate ...... If that was the case its the first I've heard of it. I've never read Lugton's books, though I have read the excellent 100 years of Hibs by Docherty & Thomson a number of times and cant recall any mention of it there.

Time for me to get on to Amazon and order the Lugton books I think .... folk quote them on here like they are the bible.

[Future17]

I have little time for attempts to embellish the clubs history, my favourite being: 'the young Michael Whelan went to St Patrick's church to pray for guidance and it was there he remembered The Ancient Order of Hibernians'

If we're going to spend time arguing about the persuasions and motivations of our founders 140+ years ago, can we at least do them the courtesy of getting their names right? :wink:

[NAE NOOKIE]

If we're going to spend time arguing about the persuasions and motivations of our founders 140+ years ago, can we at least do them the courtesy of getting their names right? :wink:

Oh FFS ..... Whelahan then :greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

Dinnae tell me mate, tell Hibernia&Alba :rolleyes:

I'm not suggesting at all that the club had a policy statement about Home Rule, NN. As I said, it wasn't/isn't a political party and wasn't set up for political reasons, as we all know. However, at the time of its formation, Ireland's future was the pre-eminent political topic, and the club was formed in the midst of it all. Those who helped create the club certainly had their views; indeed we know of the initial sectarian signing policy and the sectarian attitudes it encountered in return. In pre-Celtic Scotland Hibs was more of a focal point for the hopes of the Irish here, but, as I say, I'm not intending to overplay the extent of political attitudes as an institution.

[marinello59]

I'm not suggesting at all that the club had a policy statement about Home Rule, NN. As I said, it wasn't/isn't a political party and wasn't set up for political reasons, as we all know. However, at the time of its formation, Ireland's future was the pre-eminent political topic, and the club was formed in the midst of it all. Those who helped create the club certainly had their views; indeed we know of the initial sectarian signing policy and the sectarian attitudes it encountered in return. In pre-Celtic Scotland Hibs was more of a focal point for the hopes of the Irish here, but, as I say, I'm not intending to overplay the extent of political attitudes as an institution.

Given that the club was actually an off shoot of the Catholic Young Mens Society describing the signing policy as sectarian is a bit misleading. The exclusive policy adopted by Rangers in later years was a totally different thing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Given that the club was actually an off shoot of the Catholic Young Mens Society describing the signing policy as sectarian is a bit misleading. The exclusive policy adopted by Rangers in later years was a totally different thing.

Aye, it wasn't the same behaviour Rangers indulged in for a hundred years (or however long it was) but the club's initial qualifying rules did mean that non-football matters were a consideration for a few years; part of a wider identity. The great thing about Hibs today is absence of sectarian attitudes and the inclusive atmosphere, which still isn't true in Glasgow. It could have been very easy for Hibs to have been dragged into the prejudice of Scottish football, and it's a credit to the support that such behaviour isn't accepted.

[CropleyWasGod]

Genuine question...I'm not trying to start a bash - Hearts argument here.

The fact that, from what you guys are saying, the Club and its support were so firmly identified with Irish issues....was that a major reason for our having a smaller representation in Macrae's Battalion than Hearts?

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[AndyM_1875]

Genuine question...I'm not trying to start a bash - Hearts argument here.

The fact that, from what you guys are saying, the Club and its support were so firmly identified with Irish issues....was that a major reason for our having a smaller representation in Macrae's Battalion than Hearts?

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I think it was a simpler explanation than that CWG. Hibs had a small squad in 1914 and some of the players when war broke out were in reserved occupations such as munitions or docks work.
Two Hibs players made the ultimate sacrifice (Robert Wilson, John Aitken) and a couple were injured/gassed (notably Sandy Grosert). Former Club Captains Bobby Atherton and Paddy Hagan were both killed as well.
Easter Road had been made available by the club for the war effort.

Regarding Hibs fans, due to the geography of our club and it's support the fans joining up (including my own great grandfather who lived on Drum Terrace) many of them would have joined the Royal Scots 7th battallion which was based in Leith rather than MacCraes, the 16th, which was based in west Edinburgh I think.

To be even more brutally honest as well families in Leith would have been more concerned with putting food on the table and the welfare of their sons fighting in France than giving much of a thought to the activities going on in Dublin. This would have been amplified in the summer when on July 1 1916, the British Army had its blackest ever day with nearly 58,000 casualties with 19,290 dead.

[CropleyWasGod]

Thanks for that, Andy...really interesting :)

My own great - grandfather, also from Leith, was attached to the Marines. He was killed in Dunkirk just before the Armistice. However, he had no Irish connection that we know of....I'm guessing that, by that time, the Leith connection was as strong (stronger?)
as the Irish one?


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[marinello59]

Thanks for that, Andy...really interesting :)



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I'll second that.

[Bishop Hibee]

Thanks for that, Andy...really interesting :)

My own great - grandfather, also from Leith, was attached to the Marines. He was killed in Dunkirk just before the Armistice. However, he had no Irish connection that we know of....I'm guessing that, by that time, the Leith connection was as strong (stronger?)
as the Irish one?


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I think some of the 'Edinburgh Irish' joined up to Irish regiments.

[JeMeSouviens]

Genuine question...I'm not trying to start a bash - Hearts argument here.

The fact that, from what you guys are saying, the Club and its support were so firmly identified with Irish issues....was that a major reason for our having a smaller representation in Macrae's Battalion than Hearts?

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At least part of the reason for the Hearts team signing up en masse was that they were shamed into it, see http://www.mccraesbattaliontrust.org.uk/white-feathers-of-idlothian/

[AndyM_1875]

Thanks for that, Andy...really interesting :)

My own great - grandfather, also from Leith, was attached to the Marines. He was killed in Dunkirk just before the Armistice. However, he had no Irish connection that we know of....I'm guessing that, by that time, the Leith connection was as strong (stronger?)
as the Irish one?


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I think you are right re the Leith connection being as strong..

Certainly from what I can deduce there were at least two battalions of the 7th Royal Scots that your great grandfather may have served in during the 14-18 period, likely in 1/7. Some text nicked off the Royal Scots website shows that the Leith regiments were deployed away from the Western Front at least until April 1918 although 2/7 were deployed to Ireland in 1917 many months after the Rising which brings us back on topic again I guess.


1/7th Battalion (Territorial Force)
Mobilised in Leith in August 1914. Moved to Gallipoli in June 1915. Transferred to Egypt in January 1916 and served there, and in Palestine, until April 1918. Served on the Western Front from April 1918 until the end of the war. Reduced to cadre strength in March 1919 and returned home on May 1919.

2/7th Battalion (Territorial Force)
Raised in Leith as the 7th (Reserve) Battalion in August 1914 and re-designated as the 2/7th Battalion in January 1915. During 1915 the Battalion served as part of the Scottish Coast Defences Brigade. Later it moved to quarters in Innerleithen and Walkerburn before joining 65 Division in Larbert in November 1915. It moved to Essex in February 1916 from where it despatched drafts for service overseas. In January 1917 the Battalion moved to Dublin, then to tented accommodation in County Galway and it later transferred to the Curragh. The Battalion was disbanded in early 1918.