Breivik - How did it ever get to this (part 2)

[snooky]

From BBC website - "Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik ..... upon his return to court to accuse the government of violating his human rights by holding him in isolation".
FFS, I'm not a violent man but someone should have popped this guy at the get-go. If there wasn't such a tragic backdrop to this story, I'd laugh my head off at his audacity.
Isolation? Here's the solution, put him in a cell with the fathers of all the kids he murdered.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

The female that dumped a few guys bodies in ditches down south a few years ago has complained re isolation too.

Triple murderer Joanne Dennehy awarded Legal Aid in compensation bid re "degrading" segragation in prison as per BBC website.

[easty]

is this the result of some ****my "Lawyers-R-Us" company encouraging them to go for compensation then, to make their cut from the payout?

[Sergio sledge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35813470

[snooky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35813470

That's criminal.

[Smartie]

TBH if I'd committed the crimes that some of these folk have I'd be grateful for being held in isolation, not arguing that it infringed on my human rights.

[Sergio sledge]

That's criminal.

Is it? I know it isn't the only factor, but the difference in the recidivism rates between a system focussed on punishment like the USA and a system focussed on rehabilitation like Norway is eye opening.

76% of the US's offenders are back in jail within 5 years, whereas in Norway this is 20%. In the UK it is just under 50%.

[snooky]

Is it? I know it isn't the only factor, but the difference in the recidivism rates between a system focussed on punishment like the USA and a system focussed on rehabilitation like Norway is eye opening.

76% of the US's offenders are back in jail within 5 years, whereas in Norway this is 20%. In the UK it is just under 50%.

If we're talking about criminal acts somewhere between say, petty theft and GBH, I'll can go along with that.
When you are talking about indiscriminate mass murder, I don't care if the perpetrator turns out to be the reincarnation of Mother Theresa, they should NEVER get out.

From the Beeb website............

"He told the court it would have been more humane to shoot him than treat him like an animal for the past five years."

HUMANE????!!!!! No comment required by me.


"Among Breivik's objections listed during his testimony were
• The use of plastic cups and paper plates
• Having to eat microwaved meals, such as those made by Norwegian firm Fjordland*
• Cold coffee
• Being denied the right to meet fellow Nazi friends and marry one
• Being prevented from publishing two books, The Breivik Diaries and The Nordic State
• He had begun to love a reality TV show, Paradise Hotel: 'clear evidence of serious brain damage caused by isolation'
*Fjordland defended its nutritional standards and told the BBC that Breivik's comments were totally absurd"

They are obviously denying him a reality check as well.

[danhibees1875]

I'm all for rehabilitation, and the stats on reoffending are fairly conclusive. You also can't argue with the social benefit of having someone working and contributing to society compared to being in prison and being a social cost.

However, some crimes transcend these figures and a long, rigorous punishment is frankly deserved. Either throw away the key or get him watching the hibs every week. :wink:

Edit: those lists of complaints are farcical also. We're talking about things that many law abiding humans do not get to enjoy there...

[Onceinawhile]

Tbf, enjoying reality TV does suggest his mental state is questionable!

Other than that, utter nonsense and he surely can't win?

[Giro Playboy]

He complained that all his visits were either severely restricted or denied completely. The Norweigian government have taking this approach as the only folk who want to visit him are fellow Neo Nazis who are making a sick pilgrimage. Such is his power of persuasion the authorities are worried he will make broken damaged minds even worse.
The man is clearly insane and suicide would be his best option.

[snooky]

He complained that all his visits were either severely restricted or denied completely. The Norweigian government have taking this approach as the only folk who want to visit him are fellow Neo Nazis who are making a sick pilgrimage. Such is his power of persuasion the authorities are worried he will make broken damaged minds even worse.
The man is clearly insane and suicide would be his best option.
According to Beeb news he's partially won his human rights case and the Norwegian government have to pay his legal costs of £28k.
Words fail me.

[Steve-O]

Like it or not, prisoners are still humans (despite the press telling us they are MONSTERS and various other things), and things like being held in isolation constantly is a breach of human rights. Again, like it or not, prisons are not there to mentally or physically break individuals. They are there to restrict the liberty of a person as (a) punishment for a crime, (b) to protect the community, and (c) to provide rehabilitation where possible.

I agree that some of his complaints are nonsense, however another right of prisoners is unfortunately that they can moan about things like cold coffee and restricted visitors etc etc. Doesn't mean those things are necessarily rectified btw, just because they complain.

Brevik is clearly a nutbar and it would seem highly unlikely he'll be released into the community again anyway. However, my points above are more general and as someone has alluded to, countries who treat their prisoners badly seem to have higher reoffending rates. Does anyone seriously think that someone being treated like an animal in prison is going to result in them coming out a better person? It is far too simplistic to say "aye but they won't want to go back!". It just doesn't work like that.

[Hibbyradge]

Like it or not, prisoners are still humans (despite the press telling us they are MONSTERS and various other things), and things like being held in isolation constantly is a breach of human rights. Again, like it or not, prisons are not there to mentally or physically break individuals. They are there to restrict the liberty of a person as (a) punishment for a crime, (b) to protect the community, and (c) to provide rehabilitation where possible.

I agree that some of his complaints are nonsense, however another right of prisoners is unfortunately that they can moan about things like cold coffee and restricted visitors etc etc. Doesn't mean those things are necessarily rectified btw, just because they complain.

Brevik is clearly a nutbar and it would seem highly unlikely he'll be released into the community again anyway. However, my points above are more general and as someone has alluded to, countries who treat their prisoners badly seem to have higher reoffending rates. Does anyone seriously think that someone being treated like an animal in prison is going to result in them coming out a better person? It is far too simplistic to say "aye but they won't want to go back!". It just doesn't work like that.

Excellent post. I agree entirely.

[Jones28]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35813470

With re-offending rates so low it's hard to argue with it.

Lessons to be learned or is it too late for Scotland?

[snooky]

Breivik showed no regard for the 'human rights' of the 77 innocent people he slaughtered.
IMO, there's only one solution for the perpetrators of indiscriminate mass murder.

I respect that others (like the posters above) disagree - and that's fine.

[Sir David Gray]

Like it or not, prisoners are still humans (despite the press telling us they are MONSTERS and various other things), and things like being held in isolation constantly is a breach of human rights. Again, like it or not, prisons are not there to mentally or physically break individuals. They are there to restrict the liberty of a person as (a) punishment for a crime, (b) to protect the community, and (c) to provide rehabilitation where possible.

I agree that some of his complaints are nonsense, however another right of prisoners is unfortunately that they can moan about things like cold coffee and restricted visitors etc etc. Doesn't mean those things are necessarily rectified btw, just because they complain.

Brevik is clearly a nutbar and it would seem highly unlikely he'll be released into the community again anyway. However, my points above are more general and as someone has alluded to, countries who treat their prisoners badly seem to have higher reoffending rates. Does anyone seriously think that someone being treated like an animal in prison is going to result in them coming out a better person? It is far too simplistic to say "aye but they won't want to go back!". It just doesn't work like that.

Perhaps these sorts of people should just be locked up for life without any possibility of parole.

Problem solved.

The fact that Norway has a maximum prison sentence of 21 years is a disgrace.

[Hibrandenburg]

Perhaps these sorts of people should just be locked up for life without any possibility of parole.

Problem solved.

The fact that Norway has a maximum prison sentence of 21 years is a disgrace.

Can you explain your interpretation of "disgrace" please?

[Smartie]

Can you explain your interpretation of "disgrace" please?

Personally I find Breivik's crimes utterly abhorrent in every way. His personality and attitude suggests he is absolutely beyond rehabilitation so I am deeply uncomfortable with the notion that he might walk free again.

"Disgrace" is putting it mildly imo. We have a number of dangerous prisoners in this country who will rightly never see freedom again because of the severity of their crimes.

And FWIW I actually agree with the Norwegian model where a softer approach is generally taken in order to rehabilitate rather than punish individuals.

[Steve-O]

Perhaps these sorts of people should just be locked up for life without any possibility of parole.

Problem solved.

The fact that Norway has a maximum prison sentence of 21 years is a disgrace.

That is what has been reported, but the other detail that's been missed is that they also have the ability to keep people in indefinitely whilst still a risk. Brevik, considering he murdered 77 people, fits that criteria and I'd be very surprised if he walked out the door 20 odd years from now.

My point was more general. A spree killer like this is clearly a different and rare case.

Edit - it's also "problem solved" for the safety of the community, but don't forget prison staff who need to deal with such people forevermore. Staffing murderers with nothing to lose is no easy task.

[Hibs Class]

Perhaps these sorts of people should just be locked up for life without any possibility of parole.

Problem solved.

The fact that Norway has a maximum prison sentence of 21 years is a disgrace.

I think 21 years is a maximum minimum sentence, not a date by which someone must be released

[McSwanky]

Perhaps these sorts of people should just be locked up for life without any possibility of parole.

Problem solved.

The fact that Norway has a maximum prison sentence of 21 years is a disgrace.

1. Who defines who falls under your "these sorts of people" classification? Are there any grey areas at all?

2. Your third sentence sounds like you got it from a Daily Mail headline, rather than doing any basic research yourself.

3. Problems like this are rarely as simple as people like to think they are.

[Pete]

I think 21 years is a maximum minimum sentence, not a date by which someone must be released

That sounds a bit better.

If it was a maximum sentence of 21 years regardless of the crime I would echo what Trig said.