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GreenCastle
14-03-2016, 12:45 PM
After reflecting on yesterday and reading the fans reactions here is my summary.

1 - We weren't favourites yesterday - that for me is a result of several years of mismanagement and ending up where we are. Tragic state of affairs how the level of expectation of the club has dropped. Inverness / Ross County and St Johnstone have all now won a trophy more recently than us.

2 - Yesterday was "unlucky" ?- For me it was poor management and a repetition of issues that have seen us fall into 2nd / 3rd in league. Formation / Personnel / accommodating players playing on reputation.

3 - Hoof ball v total football - I go to see my team win - winning with style is obviously more enjoyable but we need to be able to do both and this notion County were a long ball team is incorrect - they were direct but had a good game plan and like they did against Celtic came up winners.

4 - 3-5-2 v 4-4-2 diamond - name one successful team in the world that use the 4-4-2 diamond? County played a 3-5-2 for the 1st time this season I was told and caused us problems at the back - I never felt confident defensively the whole game - Oxley only had 1 save from the free kick and County scored 2 of the easiest goals you will ever score in a game (let alone a cup final) but personally I think the shape was wrong and Gunnarsson should have started in a back 3.

5 - Stokes and KT - both did good things at times but when things were bad they were bad. I feel Stubbs is playing them on reputation (or clause in Stokes contract he must play X amount of games?) but you can see that Cummings and Stokes partnership doesn't look a happy one. They are very similar and I think that affects them both. Stokes could have score 3 yesterday but didn't but for me still isn't looking fully fit. I also do question really Stokes really cares about being here - often doesn't clap the fans at the end and compared to the Ross County player who ran himself into the ground - I know who I would pick in my team.

6 - Boyle / Farid and our lack of width and speed. The reason we have a lot of ball and so few goals comes from this possession game we have - we have good players on the ball but we need more X factor to break teams down - get in behind teams / flick downs from goal kicks etc. I can count on my hand how many flick on's from headers we have won from goal kicks this season - Cummings etc always seem to jump but rarely win the ball in the air. Surely Farid should have been brought on at 2v1 yesterday ? If he's not fully fit he shouldn't be on the bench.

7 - Another opportunity missed - losing cup finals to the Old Firm / Hearts can be hard to take but usually the Old Firm are favourites and derbies are so unpredictable. Over the years with Hibs for me are the missed opportunities - Falkirk last year in the semi, Livingston Cup final and yesterday. We weren't favourites yesterday but as the game went on Ross Coutny were there for the taking.

8 - Hibs club mindset - the bottle has improved in certain games this season and there have been major changes to the club and it takes time for change to happen but the challenge for this team and moving forward is to show in the bigger games - like semi finals and finals plus playoffs that they can win games. Yesterday would have made up for a lot of rubbish over the last few years but feels like nearly back to the square 1. Having watched many games this season and last they do show up but you need to fully deliver to develop a winners mindset.

9 - Rest of the season - objective 1 is still to be promoted - if this doesn't happen then serious questions need to be asked. Scottish Cup - I'm not expecting a win Wednesday but a win would financially be a big boost but could then be distraction - would rather win and set up a chance of another final appearance.

10 - Hibsing it / Bottle Merchants etc - sadly these tags will stay with the club until they do show up and show people the character that is required to grind out results. While lots of pressure on Hibs yesterday and we took the game to them - we had to show respect for a team that knocked out Celtic previously. On the flip side though I also think we have shown the lack of quality in Scottish Football this season beating several so called higher league teams. With all the resources Hibs have and the continued backing they get we need to show something for it sooner rather than later.

End of the world stuff no........but history will continue to repeat itself until the whole club get it right. The fans continue to do their part and turn up and every Hibs fan should take credit for that but the management and balance of players needs to be addressed - otherwise this season will turn into another nothing season with an opportunity missed to get promoted.

SeanWilson
14-03-2016, 01:01 PM
After reflecting on yesterday and reading the fans reactions here is my summary.

1 - We weren't favourites yesterday - that for me is a result of several years of mismanagement and ending up where we are. Tragic state of affairs how the level of expectation of the club has dropped. Inverness / Ross County and St Johnstone have all now won a trophy more recently than us.

2 - Yesterday was "unlucky" ?- For me it was poor management and a reputation of issues that have seen us fall into 2nd / 3rd in league. Formation / Personnel / accommodating players playing on reputation.

3 - Hoof ball v total football - I go to see my team win - winning with style is obviously more enjoyable but we need to be able to do both and this notion County were a long ball team is incorrect - they were direct but had a good game plan and like they did against Celtic came up winners.

4 - 3-5-2 v 4-4-2 diamond - name one successful team in the world that use the 4-4-2 diamond? County played a 3-5-2 for the 1st time this season I was told and caused us problems at the back - I never felt confident defensively the whole game - Oxley only had 1 save from the free kick and County scored 2 of the easiest goals you will ever score in a game (let alone a cup final) but personally I think the shape was wrong and Gunnarsson should have started in a back 3.

5 - Stokes and KT - both did good things at times but when things were bad they were bad. I feel Stubbs is playing them on reputation (or clause in Stokes contract he must play X amount of games?) but you can see that Cummings and Stokes partnership doesn't look a happy one. They are very similar and I think that affects them both. Stokes could have score 3 yesterday but didn't but for me still isn't looking fully fit. I also do question really Stokes really cares about being here - often doesn't clap the fans at the end and compared to the Ross County player who ran himself into the ground - I know who I would pick in my team.

6 - Boyle / Farid and our lack of width and speed. The reason we have a lot of ball and so few goals comes from this possession game we have - we have good players on the ball but we need more X factor to break teams down - get in behind teams / flick downs from goal kicks etc. I can count on my hand how many flick on's from headers we have won from goal kicks this season - Cummings etc always seem to jump but rarely win the ball in the air. Surely Farid should have been brought on at 2v1 yesterday ? If he's not fully fit he shouldn't be on the bench.

7 - Another opportunity missed - losing cup finals to the Old Firm / Hearts can be hard to take but usually the Old Firm are favourites and derbies are so unpredictable. Over the years with Hibs for me are the missed opportunities - Falkirk last year in the semi, Livingston Cup final and yesterday. We weren't favourites yesterday but as the game went on Ross Coutny were there for the taking.

8 - Hibs club mindset - the bottle has improved in certain games this season and there have been major changes to the club and it takes time for change to happen but the challenge for this team and moving forward is to show in the bigger games - like semi finals and finals plus playoffs that they can win games. Yesterday would have made up for a lot of rubbish over the last few years but feels like nearly back to the square 1. Having watched many games this season and last they do show up but you need to fully deliver to develop a winners mindset.

9 - Rest of the season - objective 1 is still to be promoted - if this doesn't happen then serious questions need to be asked. Scottish Cup - I'm not expecting a win Wednesday but a win would financially be a big boost but could then be distraction - would rather win and set up a chance of another final appearance.

10 - Hibsing it / Bottle Merchants etc - sadly these tags will stay with the club until they do show up and show people the character that is required to grind out results. While lots of pressure on Hibs yesterday and we took the game to them - we had to show respect for a team that knocked out Celtic previously. On the flip side though I also think we have shown the lack of quality in Scottish Football this season beating several so called higher league teams. With all the resources Hibs have and the continued backing they get we need to show something for it sooner rather than later.

End of the world stuff no........but history will continue to repeat itself until the whole club get it right. The fans continue to do their part and turn up and every Hibs fan should take credit for that but the management and balance of players needs to be addressed - otherwise this season will turn into another nothing season with an opportunity missed to get promoted.

My thoughts:

1) We were.
2) Mixture of poor management and lack of available player, definitely not unlucky as we didnt do enough to create luck
3) If anything, we played a lot of the hoofball yesterday. I also haven't watched the game back but i can't think there will be more than 5 minutes of the 90 that they were playing football in our half.
4) game was screaming out for us to switch to 352 and get KT off for someone with pace, Boyle?
5) Personally thought Stokes had a good game. No one does anything for him, he has to create everything for himself. He was much better than JC over the piece.
6) With the constant hoofing, Farid would have definitely been my choice for a sub around 60 mins and it would have been JC getting hooked.
7) Was not a good feeling to lose in that way and will hurt for a wee while
8) Don't think mindset or bottle had anything to do with losing the match
9) We have to go up at all costs
10) I dont even pretend to know what this 'hibsing' it means, its just some yamish term. We did lose a cup final to an absolutely horrible goal in the final minutes of the match, which was really, really hard to take but we didn't bottle that game

Bottom line, we should have started with a 352, KT wasn't quick enough and trying to do what Bartley was there to do (waste of a player on the park), we should have tried to use the width rather than going through middle or hoofing and we should have made a change up top when it was clear to see they weren't working. It was glaringly obvious for the whole match that at 442 and Gray and stevenson spending more time in their half than ours, we were leaving acres of space for the counter... we got hit with it twice, they scored twice.

mcfly
14-03-2016, 01:11 PM
After reflecting on yesterday and reading the fans reactions here is my summary.

1 - We weren't favourites yesterday - that for me is a result of several years of mismanagement and ending up where we are. Tragic state of affairs how the level of expectation of the club has dropped. Inverness / Ross County and St Johnstone have all now won a trophy more recently than us.

2 - Yesterday was "unlucky" ?- For me it was poor management and a reputation of issues that have seen us fall into 2nd / 3rd in league. Formation / Personnel / accommodating players playing on reputation.

3 - Hoof ball v total football - I go to see my team win - winning with style is obviously more enjoyable but we need to be able to do both and this notion County were a long ball team is incorrect - they were direct but had a good game plan and like they did against Celtic came up winners.

4 - 3-5-2 v 4-4-2 diamond - name one successful team in the world that use the 4-4-2 diamond? County played a 3-5-2 for the 1st time this season I was told and caused us problems at the back - I never felt confident defensively the whole game - Oxley only had 1 save from the free kick and County scored 2 of the easiest goals you will ever score in a game (let alone a cup final) but personally I think the shape was wrong and Gunnarsson should have started in a back 3.

5 - Stokes and KT - both did good things at times but when things were bad they were bad. I feel Stubbs is playing them on reputation (or clause in Stokes contract he must play X amount of games?) but you can see that Cummings and Stokes partnership doesn't look a happy one. They are very similar and I think that affects them both. Stokes could have score 3 yesterday but didn't but for me still isn't looking fully fit. I also do question really Stokes really cares about being here - often doesn't clap the fans at the end and compared to the Ross County player who ran himself into the ground - I know who I would pick in my team.

6 - Boyle / Farid and our lack of width and speed. The reason we have a lot of ball and so few goals comes from this possession game we have - we have good players on the ball but we need more X factor to break teams down - get in behind teams / flick downs from goal kicks etc. I can count on my hand how many flick on's from headers we have won from goal kicks this season - Cummings etc always seem to jump but rarely win the ball in the air. Surely Farid should have been brought on at 2v1 yesterday ? If he's not fully fit he shouldn't be on the bench.

7 - Another opportunity missed - losing cup finals to the Old Firm / Hearts can be hard to take but usually the Old Firm are favourites and derbies are so unpredictable. Over the years with Hibs for me are the missed opportunities - Falkirk last year in the semi, Livingston Cup final and yesterday. We weren't favourites yesterday but as the game went on Ross Coutny were there for the taking.

8 - Hibs club mindset - the bottle has improved in certain games this season and there have been major changes to the club and it takes time for change to happen but the challenge for this team and moving forward is to show in the bigger games - like semi finals and finals plus playoffs that they can win games. Yesterday would have made up for a lot of rubbish over the last few years but feels like nearly back to the square 1. Having watched many games this season and last they do show up but you need to fully deliver to develop a winners mindset.

9 - Rest of the season - objective 1 is still to be promoted - if this doesn't happen then serious questions need to be asked. Scottish Cup - I'm not expecting a win Wednesday but a win would financially be a big boost but could then be distraction - would rather win and set up a chance of another final appearance.

10 - Hibsing it / Bottle Merchants etc - sadly these tags will stay with the club until they do show up and show people the character that is required to grind out results. While lots of pressure on Hibs yesterday and we took the game to them - we had to show respect for a team that knocked out Celtic previously. On the flip side though I also think we have shown the lack of quality in Scottish Football this season beating several so called higher league teams. With all the resources Hibs have and the continued backing they get we need to show something for it sooner rather than later.

End of the world stuff no........but history will continue to repeat itself until the whole club get it right. The fans continue to do their part and turn up and every Hibs fan should take credit for that but the management and balance of players needs to be addressed - otherwise this season will turn into another nothing season with an opportunity missed to get promoted.

Good post well thought out

GreenCastle
14-03-2016, 01:54 PM
My thoughts:

1) We were.
2) Mixture of poor management and lack of available player, definitely not unlucky as we didnt do enough to create luck
3) If anything, we played a lot of the hoofball yesterday. I also haven't watched the game back but i can't think there will be more than 5 minutes of the 90 that they were playing football in our half.
4) game was screaming out for us to switch to 352 and get KT off for someone with pace, Boyle?
5) Personally thought Stokes had a good game. No one does anything for him, he has to create everything for himself. He was much better than JC over the piece.
6) With the constant hoofing, Farid would have definitely been my choice for a sub around 60 mins and it would have been JC getting hooked.
7) Was not a good feeling to lose in that way and will hurt for a wee while
8) Don't think mindset or bottle had anything to do with losing the match
9) We have to go up at all costs
10) I dont even pretend to know what this 'hibsing' it means, its just some yamish term. We did lose a cup final to an absolutely horrible goal in the final minutes of the match, which was really, really hard to take but we didn't bottle that game

Bottom line, we should have started with a 352, KT wasn't quick enough and trying to do what Bartley was there to do (waste of a player on the park), we should have tried to use the width rather than going through middle or hoofing and we should have made a change up top when it was clear to see they weren't working. It was glaringly obvious for the whole match that at 442 and Gray and stevenson spending more time in their half than ours, we were leaving acres of space for the counter... we got hit with it twice, they scored twice.

Decent reply.

It's pretty obvious that with a 4-4-2 diamond the width is provided by the full backs.

The issue with that against a 3-5-2 is that they have 5 in middle and wide players covering that.

Also we leave 2v2 at back at times but Bartley is meant to protect.

We found Fontaine and McGregor being dragged out to wide areas too many times. They aren't comfortable doing this and spent a lot of energy doing this.

Ross County obviously thought if they can keep McGinn and Henderson quiet we won't score many.

KT and Bartley don't score goals so they weren't worried about them with the ball. Hence the number of times we had it close to goal and neither caused any issues.

As I said I believe this is County playing a 3-5-2 for first time this season and we fell right into the counter and didn't adapt.

Player by player we are better.

ancient hibee
14-03-2016, 02:05 PM
Despite what is being said about styles we were the team with most of the ball, our goalie only made one save,their goalie made several,they barely threatened and both of their goals had an element of luck.

SeanWilson
14-03-2016, 02:07 PM
Decent reply.

It's pretty obvious that with a 4-4-2 diamond the width is provided by the full backs.

The issue with that against a 3-5-2 is that they have 5 in middle and wide players covering that.

Also we leave 2v2 at back at times but Bartley is meant to protect.

We found Fontaine and McGregor being dragged out to wide areas too many times. They aren't comfortable doing this and spent a lot of energy doing this.

Ross County obviously thought if they can keep McGinn and Henderson quiet we won't score many.

KT and Bartley don't score goals so they weren't worried about them with the ball. Hence the number of times we had it close to goal and neither caused any issues.

As I said I believe this is County playing a 3-5-2 for first time this season and we fell right into the counter and didn't adapt.

Player by player we are better.

I thought Henderson did a much better job of dealing with them than JMcG and i think Stubbs is to blame for that. McGinn on his day is our best player right now and Stubbs needed to try and adapt the formation to allow McGinn to express himself. The thing i like about the 352 is we seem to be able to fall back in to a flat back 5 almost imediately if required but yesterday from where was sitting, you could see the goals they scored from a mile away. I think Gunnarson should have been the change rather than Keatings.

Game management was suspect, we should not have been all guns blazing going in to the final 10, we would have beat them had we kept it tight and used their own tactics against them. An Alex Ferguson type head on the shoulders would have instructed the team to take the game to extra time if we couldn't put away a break away goal.

Pretty Boy
14-03-2016, 02:23 PM
Despite what is being said about styles we were the team with most of the ball, our goalie only made one save,their goalie made several,they barely threatened and both of their goals had an element of luck.

We had a lot of the ball but I struggle to remember many clear cut chances.

Their keeper had a couple of good saves, 1 from Cummings in the 1st half and the one from Fontaine right at the death and a few other decent saves, nothing I wouldn't expect a decent keeper to save though. That has to be balanced with Oxley making a fine save from a free kick, although again I'd expect him to save it. The Ross County 1st goal was a clear chance that unluckily for us they almost wasted but it fell on a plate for a tap in, the 2nd was a great ball in that put Fontaine under all sorts of pressure, we should have stopped the ball ever getting there.

GreenCastle
14-03-2016, 03:53 PM
Despite what is being said about styles we were the team with most of the ball, our goalie only made one save,their goalie made several,they barely threatened and both of their goals had an element of luck.

This is true - but how many times have we said that over the last 2 seasons?

Personally saying bad luck..that to me is a cop out.

We should have known we were going to have plenty of possession but I didn't see a plan B yesterday - Farid or Bolye's pace would have been a different form of attach to try get the winning goal.

21.05.2016
14-03-2016, 03:58 PM
No excuses from me, we were the better side but thats what happens when you don't put chances away or take advantage of dominating possession.

SeanWilson
14-03-2016, 04:51 PM
Despite what is being said about styles we were the team with most of the ball, our goalie only made one save,their goalie made several,they barely threatened and both of their goals had an element of luck.

Neither of their goals had an element of luck IMO - it was exactly the same against Morton, chasing the game frantically and leaving miles of space for the opposition to run into, except this time, we didn't have to chase the game in the last 10 minutes as the worst that could happen was extra time....

Ronniekirk
14-03-2016, 05:15 PM
Did players try and win it as they didn't want extra time if we could avoid it ,with one eye on the reply ? Was it just naivety and getting caught up in the atmosphere .
Guess we will never know ,but the bench if unhappy with us chasing the game .
,should of found a way to get that message across to the players .

highland hibbee
14-03-2016, 05:20 PM
As the oft quoted sayin goes " the more I practice the luckier I get."

maybe be the reverse is worth thinking about, " the less I practice the less luck I get."

only asking a question, no team can be as consistently unlucky as us without there being some explanation ???

or can they..........

ancient hibee
15-03-2016, 02:17 PM
Neither of their goals had an element of luck IMO - it was exactly the same against Morton, chasing the game frantically and leaving miles of space for the opposition to run into, except this time, we didn't have to chase the game in the last 10 minutes as the worst that could happen was extra time....

The luck I was referring to was that the stumble by their player scoring the first after gifting them the ball and the player arriving at the only place he could score from the interception for the second.
As far as the play leading up the first goal was a shambles.A stupid free kick by Henderson up the right to Thomson (the man after Stevenson least likely to do anything with it)after the big guys had gone up-the failure of Thomson,Henderson and McGinn to be strong enough in tackles to get the ball back-the weak poor pass by Thomson after we had got the ball back.The second goal was as you say incorrectly chasing the game.

Booked4Being-Ugly
15-03-2016, 02:38 PM
Luck had nothing to do with Ross County winning - poor defending and naivety caused the defeat along with lack of invention in attack.

We never really seemed to have a plan other than to move the ball around up front, or lump the ball to Cummings, which is something we've been doing a lot of recently!

We also lacked leadership on Sunday. There's no-one in the team right now that shows that on the park. Grays supposed to be that man but he isn't.

SeanWilson
15-03-2016, 02:50 PM
The luck I was referring to was that the stumble by their player scoring the first after gifting them the ball and the player arriving at the only place he could score from the interception for the second.
As far as the play leading up the first goal was a shambles.A stupid free kick by Henderson up the right to Thomson (the man after Stevenson least likely to do anything with it)after the big guys had gone up-the failure of Thomson,Henderson and McGinn to be strong enough in tackles to get the ball back-the weak poor pass by Thomson after we had got the ball back.The second goal was as you say incorrectly chasing the game.

I know what you're saying but that's not unlucky. We made the first goal for them, if you look back, Thomson has umpteen men on for the pass, however plays a shocker to Stokes, which takes everyone out the game... Bartley does absolutely brilliantly to get back but just cant clear his lines... Thats not lucky. The second goal is an absolutel shocker, we are frantically pumping the ball forward and chasing the game like we are already 1-2 down and as was glaringly obvious to me left that huge amount of space on their left side of the pitch, which we had for most of the game... again, CH relies on Bartley to mop up and he just cant make it... It wasn't unlucky that they ended up with the ball in the back of the net again.

ancient hibee
15-03-2016, 02:55 PM
I know what you're saying but that's not unlucky. We made the first goal for them, if you look back, Thomson has umpteen men on for the pass, however plays a shocker to Stokes, which takes everyone out the game... Bartley does absolutely brilliantly to get back but just cant clear his lines... Thats not lucky. The second goal is an absolutel shocker, we are frantically pumping the ball forward and chasing the game like we are already 1-2 down and as was glaringly obvious to me left that huge amount of space on their left side of the pitch, which we had for most of the game... again, CH relies on Bartley to mop up and he just cant make it... It wasn't unlucky that they ended up with the ball in the back of the net again.

Try reading my post again:greengrin

SeanWilson
15-03-2016, 03:31 PM
Try reading my post again:greengrin

D'oh!! 😂😂

ancient hibee
15-03-2016, 06:33 PM
I should also have said that I didn't think we were unlucky(except the ball could have fallen a bit more favourably for us at their end)but I did think they were lucky because the goals were presented to them.In fact they never looked like making a chance really.

Potty 86's mate
15-03-2016, 06:53 PM
I should also have said that I didn't think we were unlucky(except the ball could have fallen a bit more favourably for us at their end)but I did think they were lucky because the goals were presented to them.In fact they never looked like making a chance really.

Promotion and a Scottish cup win will ease the pain. We're the best footballing side in Scotland right now but we just need to believe in ourselves.

familyman
15-03-2016, 07:19 PM
Promotion and a Scottish cup win will ease the pain. We're the best footballing side in Scotland right now but we just need to believe in ourselves.
Despite it all, and there are plenty things to sort,we would have won and should have won..but as so often has been the case the forwards fail to deliver...it is that simple really as the errors we make at the back as we do continue but I would prefer to win 6-5 or 4-3 than lose 0-1 1-2 0-3..Malonga going was a BIG mistake, as that close control is no longer there up front...
Bring in El A ,do not pair J C and AS..Even AS had a better understanding with Keatings.

NAE NOOKIE
16-03-2016, 04:07 AM
I know what you're saying but that's not unlucky. We made the first goal for them, if you look back, Thomson has umpteen men on for the pass, however plays a shocker to Stokes, which takes everyone out the game... Bartley does absolutely brilliantly to get back but just cant clear his lines... Thats not lucky. The second goal is an absolutel shocker, we are frantically pumping the ball forward and chasing the game like we are already 1-2 down and as was glaringly obvious to me left that huge amount of space on their left side of the pitch, which we had for most of the game... again, CH relies on Bartley to mop up and he just cant make it... It wasn't unlucky that they ended up with the ball in the back of the net again.

I mentioned this on the Stubbs thread. I can forgive players individual mistakes and even after 50 odd years watching and playing football I am not a genius at working out formations, so I'm not going to slaughter a manager for playing the wrong one, if wrong it was.

But what I couldn't understand on Sunday and still cant, is why we were piling forward so freely with 10 minutes to go .... at that point we should have had it in mind that we had already lost a goal on the break and that Morton had picked us off twice the same way only a few weeks earlier as we chased the game. The word from the dugout should have been to keep looking for a goal, but not to leave gaps at the back for County to exploit, in the knowledge that losing a goal so late on would leave next to no time to grab an equaliser.

Surely that's just common sense and sensible game management with half an hour of extra time still on offer if we didn't score a 2nd goal in normal time. I don't even think you could use the excuse that Stubbs is an inexperienced manager .... surely a man who has played football at the level he has is savvy enough to play the odds in a situation like that?

Yes we were the better team, and IMO the braver team ...... but at times we were also the stupider team and in the end it cost us a game we deserved to win on the balance of play.

A big price to pay for a simple lesson ...... lets hope we never forget it.