Brexit Campaign

[Colr]

Saw the footage of the Brexit launch on the news last night and couldn't help feeling that they were hardly the most edifying bunch contrary to how they see themselves - then George Galloway took the stage.......:dunno::taxi

[Holmesdale Hibs]

The Brexit campaign needs a good leader. I personally don't mind Michael Gove but he'd struggle to match Cameron in terms of charisma and popularity. Farage only appeals to people who have already made up their mind. Galloway is too much of a fanny but don't think he'll ever be considered as leadership material.

If Boris joins I guess he has the charisma although I struggle to see him appealing to a lot of voters outside the south east.

[Colr]

The Brexit campaign needs a good leader. I personally don't mind Michael Gove but he'd struggle to match Cameron in terms of charisma and popularity. Farage only appeals to people who have already made up their mind. Galloway is too much of a fanny but don't think he'll ever be considered as leadership material.

If Boris joins I guess he has the charisma although I struggle to see him appealing to a lot of voters outside the south east.

I don't mind Gove either but a lot of people really don't like him at all. Farage is difficult to take seriously, unless your a bit off piste yourself, as you say.

Boris will assess the opportunity for his own advancement. If Brexit win then the current crop of Tories are toast, including their most able potential leader Gideon and Teressa May. Cameron will step down after the vote but if Brexit wins who will lead the Tories? Grayling, Gove? FFS - Corbyn could win against those mediocraties!!

Could be the least talented political scene in decades.

[Colr]

I note Priti Patel is in the Brexit camp. She wants British workers to compete with Indian workers in terms of pay and rights!!

[Silky]

I note Priti Patel is in the Brexit camp. She wants British workers to compete with Indian workers in terms of pay and rights!!

MP's included, I presume!!

[Hibernia&Alba]

I note Priti Patel is in the Brexit camp. She wants British workers to compete with Indian workers in terms of pay and rights!!

That's exactly what the right wing of the Conservative Party is after, when advocating leaving. They hate the social aspect of the EU and want to impose an entirely Darwinian model upon society; yet they have the nerve to talk about lack of democracy!

100% in vote from me. Isolationism is not the answer; never has been.

[Pretty Boy]

In for me. It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

[Geo_1875]

In for me as well. Unfortunately it'll come down to whether or not readers of The Mail and The Sun turn out to vote.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

That's exactly what the right wing of the Conservative Party is after, when advocating leaving. They hate the social aspect of the EU and want to impose an entirely Darwinian model upon society; yet they have the nerve to talk about lack of democracy!

100% in vote from me. Isolationism is not the answer; never has been.

Attitudes like this bother me a bit to be honest. You make it sound like a large part of people in favour of Brexit are old school right wing tories, which simply isn't true.

I've not decided which way I'm voting but both sides have their merits and it's not a left vs right issue.

[Colr]

I'll vote in but I don't think it would be a disaster if we left. Not for us, anyway. It would be bad for Europe with its border policies, central bank and single currency all looking pretty suspect at the moment. I hope, however, that it woulndn't destabilise Europe as that has been one of the virtues of the EU since the last big war.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just read through Gove's campaign launch and it looks like they've learned a lot from the referendum Yes campaign.

[Pretty Boy]

I'll vote in but I don't think it would be a disaster if we left. Not for us, anyway. It would be bad for Europe with its border policies, central bank and single currency all looking pretty suspect at the moment. I hope, however, that it woulndn't destabilise Europe as that has been one of the virtues of the EU since the last big war.

I think where the potential for if not disaster then certainly 'issues' comes is after an out vote. If some reports are to be believed the UK would retain EEA membership by rejoining the EFTA. The puts us in a position whereby we would still be bound by many of the regulations the biggest Eurosceptics are critical off but we would have little to no say in the creation and implementation of them.

[steakbake]

I hope we stay in but I fear that with large sections of the press on-side and big business interests in the City, that it will be very close.

[Beefster]

I hope we stay in but I fear that with large sections of the press on-side and big business interests in the City, that it will be very close.

I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of 'big business' isn't pro-Europe.

[Eyrie]

Just read through Gove's campaign launch and it looks like they've learned a lot from the referendum Yes campaign.

Does that mean that the out campaign will be bribing us with unrealistic promises of paradise if we leave, whilst the in campaign will be terrifying us with equally unrealistic claims of disaster if we leave?

[RyeSloan]

I'd be very surprised if the vast majority of 'big business' isn't pro-Europe.

Correct! Let's be clear here the 'establishment' are very much wanting to stay in...business in particular will always want to retain the stays quo where they can.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Attitudes like this bother me a bit to be honest. You make it sound like a large part of people in favour of Brexit are old school right wing tories, which simply isn't true.

I've not decided which way I'm voting but both sides have their merits and it's not a left vs right issue.

There are cross sections of opinion on each side, obviously. I wouldn't normally find myself on the same side of an argument with David Cameron, for example, but it's absolutely true that the referendum has come about as a result of the split inside the Conservatives. Cameron had to put it in their election manifesto under duress. Also, the debate about leaving is being argued on their terms: immigration, welfare etc. Have you heard any voices in the media saying we should leave in order to escape free-market capitalism? No, it's all Nigel Farage, The Daily Mail, and the like. There's very few Tony Benn figures putting forward a socialist analysis of the single market.

There are proponents of leaving on the left, but there's no doubt the out campaign is driven from the right. That's the context in which the debate is being framed. All the centre left parties want to stay in.

[PiemanP]

Swaying towards out. Got to think long term here, I can only see the EU bureaucracy and immigration issues getting worse, not better. My only concerns are the SNP's demands for an indy referendum 2 as a result of an out vote.

Whether Boris plays an active role in the out campaign will play a massive part in the success or failure of the out campaign in the south.

[Just Alf]

Correct! Let's be clear here the 'establishment' are very much wanting to stay in...business in particular will always want to retain the stays quo where they can.
Agree with that a lot.

My previous employer spent a lot of money on investigating impacts and building contingencies if Scotland had voted yes... at the time it was something like

Best outcome = no change

Poorer but managable outcome = yes vote but managing to stay in the EU

Worst (by some margin) = leaving EU.


They'll probably have to spend a few million on planning again! Lol

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[lucky]

I'll be voting to leave. TTIP is just the latest example of the EU being about business and not about people. You just have to look at how the Greek people were forced to accept austerity from the EU. The EU is not democratic in shape or form

[AndyM_1875]

As someone who works for a French company and has worked within the EU it will be little surprise that I am a Remain vote.

I see no sense in leaving. It will only weaken the rights of workers, result in another recession, and see a lot of jobs go as well as prices going up.
I have absolutely no interest in being on the same side as Farage Galloway, Patel, Gove at pretty much anything.

You can guarantee as well that if the Brexit side wins, they will be howling within a year when Nicola Sturgeon presses the IndyRef2 button and the UK breaks up as a result of a disgusted Scottish populace being insulted by being dragged out of the EU against their will.

[lucky]

As someone who works for a French company and has worked within the EU it will be little surprise that I am a Remain vote.

I see no sense in leaving. It will only weaken the rights of workers, result in another recession, and see a lot of jobs go as well as prices going up.
I have absolutely no interest in being on the same side as Farage Galloway, Patel, Gove at pretty much anything.

You can guarantee as well that if the Brexit side wins, they will be howling within a year when Nicola Sturgeon presses the IndyRef2 button and the UK breaks up as a result of a disgusted Scottish populace being insulted by being dragged out of the EU against their will.

Workers rights were won by the trade union movement not given to us by the EU. If Scotland has another indyRef2 then it will be for us to decide if we leave the UK. The two are not connected unless your NS. But in the event of Scotland becoming independent then we would have to negotiate back into the EU and those terms would need to be placed before the people in another referendum

[Beefster]

Workers rights were won by the trade union movement not given to us by the EU.

The TUC disagrees with you.

"Workers’ rights are on the line in this referendum. It’s the EU that gives working people the right to paid holiday, parental leave, equal treatment for part-timers and much more."

From https://www.tuc.org.uk/international-issues/europe/ec-social-agenda/economic-developments/workers’-rights-are-line

[Rasta_Hibs]

Get out and never look back!

We buy far more from the EU than we sell to it.

The recent migrants problems are just the tip of the iceberg - get out the EU and have tighter boarder control.

The EU is not democratic it is only there to serve the Elite's interests and Business it is not for the best interests of people.

[Haymaker]

I am voting to stay in.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The TUC disagrees with you.

"Workers’ rights are on the line in this referendum. It’s the EU that gives working people the right to paid holiday, parental leave, equal treatment for part-timers and much more."

From https://www.tuc.org.uk/international-issues/europe/ec-social-agenda/economic-developments/workers’-rights-are-line

And these are exactly the kind of thing that UKIP, the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative Party, and the right wing press wants to abolish, amongst many other EU directives that address social protection

The campaign to leave isn't equally split across the political spectrum. The BBC is reporting just now that at least 104 Tory MPs will vote to leave, including 6 cabinet ministers. Amongst Labour MPs it will be possibly 4! In the SNP, Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru, not a single one!

Think: if we leave, who really benefits? In whose interests is this?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Get out and never look back!

We buy far more from the EU than we sell to it.

The recent migrants problems are just the tip of the iceberg - get out the EU and have tighter boarder control.

The EU is not democratic it is only there to serve the Elite's interests and Business it is not for the best interests of people.

I couldn't disagree more.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I couldn't disagree more.

Mon then oot with it!
Why?

[Hibernia&Alba]

Mon then oot with it!
Why?

For all the political, social, and economic advantages that I believe we gain from EU membership.

-Leave the largest trading block in the world - a single market of 400 million people? The economic consequences would be very, very difficult to address.
-Abolish our commitments to environmental protection, human rights protection and workplace protection that we enjoy under EU legislation? Do you think the Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative Party would give them back after leaving?
-Abandon our place to influence our European partners and our role in EU influence globally? We're a small country of sixty million. Our voice in the world would be egregiously diminished.
-Lose our right to freedom of movement within the EU.


There are so many reasons, whereas as the out campaign, particularly in the papers, is filled with intolerant guff about migrants and the like. Our leaving the EU wouldn't solve the migrant problem. We would still need to play our role in helping those fleeing war, such as Syria right now.

[HappyAsHellas]

I'm voting to stay in so that more unelected, faceless officials can tell us what to do and make us join TTIP. It's going to be fun!

[Rasta_Hibs]

I'm voting to stay in so that more unelected, faceless officials can tell us what to do and make us join TTIP. It's going to be fun!

Have you seen this years TITP line up? The Stone Roses are playing!!

[Hibrandenburg]

Great article from the Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/11/whats-eu-ever-done-us

[Hibernia&Alba]

Great article from the Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/11/whats-eu-ever-done-us

Simon Sweeney:applause::applause::agree:

Then a guy called Yugo Kovach, in Dorset, rants about how terrible it is to allow eastern Europeans into Britain :greengrin

[SHODAN]

A flawed EU wins every time over handing over our foreign policy to a right wing, xenophobic bunch of crooks and closer alliance with the ever so democratic, ever so free USA.

A lot of people who will vote to leave coz they want awl dem immergrants out will soon get a bit of a shock when it turns out that lack of jobs was indeed down to the big banks all along and not a couple of Polish cleaners. Meanwhile, Scotland's economy will stagnate even further once immigration is halted, meaning we'll no longer get any skilled economic migrants in that we need.

Not to mention all the people leaving the country if independence (and therefore staying in the EU) isn't immediately secured afterwards, of which I will be one.

In every time, and if it's Out then bye bye Britain. :bye:

[mmmmhibby]

[QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4595631]did you know the pension pot for all these unelected European Commissioners is 40 billion euro.....aye 40 billion euro of taxpayers money. The way I see it is the last mob to have a commission of leadership were the MAFIA and this mob of neo-liberals act like the MAFIA . These EU leaders who we canny even name are deciding our every day affairs fi Belgium... also aw these ex and failed politicians that milk the EU gravy train for huge amounts of tax payers money will lose there meaningless, highly paid unskilled absurd jobs if we leave the EU, so I'm OUT!!!

[Hibbyradge]

[QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4595631] These EU leaders who we canny even name are deciding our every day affairs fi Belgium...

Last parliament, the government passed about 120 different pieces of legislation.

4 of them were initiated by the EU.

[mmmmhibby]

[QUOTE=mmmmhibby;4595635]

Last parliament, the government passed about 120 different pieces of legislation.

4 of them were initiated by the EU.

They were probably too busy making up further regulation that strangle our agriculture, fishing and small business fraternity.

[Hibbyradge]

They were probably too busy making up further regulation that strangle our agriculture, fishing and small business fraternity.

Aye, probably. :rolleyes:

And there was me thinking we were all having a sensible, adult discussion.

[Glory Lurker]

Staying in. There is loads about the EU that gets my goat, but the good outweighs the bad. If they could sort out the bad, it'd be a great arrangement. I doubt that will happen, which leaves it all a bit unsatisfactory but as workers and individuals we have too much to lose letting Boris and Nigel have their way.

[Hibbyradge]

16179

[Peevemor]

I find this incredible

[Silky]

If that's real he's a hypocritical twat!

[Hibernia&Alba]

I find this incredible

That must be fake? We are already in the EU, so why would the banks leave if we then voted to remain in? If it was the in campaign using that argument as a warning against leaving, it would make more sense.

[Sir David Gray]

I'll be voting to leave.

It's probably the easiest decision I'll ever have to make at a polling station.

[Peevemor]

https://mobile.twitter.com/A_LordDarling/status/700596662453010432

Looks like a fake account.

[RyeSloan]

It's a shame the EU debate seems to be entering around immigration when really I think it's much more of an economic debate than anything. Immigration will happen whether we are in or out, any country with a birth rate as low as ours that wants to maintain growth needs immigration so it will happen either way.

The way I see it is that leaving will allow the UK control over its own affairs, especially economic ones. We would be free to trade with the rest of the world as we see fit, not as determined by the EU. Sure being inside the EU gives us access to a large trading block but that's nothing compared to the restricted access that causes to the rest of the world.

The UK became a world power through its ability to trade and I see it quite happily being able to do so successfully outside of the over bearing, non democratic centralising force of the EU.

Sure there will be risks of leaving but then there are risks in staying as well, the EU is hardly proving to be a job creating super economy is it...just look at the mess Drahgi and his ECB cronies are perpetuating across the continent.

That's said I suppose I'm not overly bothered as I'm sure in or out the governments and central bankers of the day will continue down the well trodden path of market manipulation, debasement of currencies and robbing those people that work and create wealth to forever prop up those that don't. From the BoE to the Fed to the PBOC to the BOJ to the ECB it's all the same so being in or out of the EU is not going to change the mess they have created one jot.

[Beefster]

did you know the pension pot for all these unelected European Commissioners is 40 billion euro.

Sorry but I'm 99% certain that that is utter horse****.

[Peevemor]

https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk

[Holmesdale Hibs]

There are cross sections of opinion on each side, obviously. I wouldn't normally find myself on the same side of an argument with David Cameron, for example, but it's absolutely true that the referendum has come about as a result of the split inside the Conservatives. Cameron had to put it in their election manifesto under duress. Also, the debate about leaving is being argued on their terms: immigration, welfare etc. Have you heard any voices in the media saying we should leave in order to escape free-market capitalism? No, it's all Nigel Farage, The Daily Mail, and the like. There's very few Tony Benn figures putting forward a socialist analysis of the single market.

There are proponents of leaving on the left, but there's no doubt the out campaign is driven from the right. That's the context in which the debate is being framed. All the centre left parties want to stay in.

I agree with some of what you’re saying however IMO the referendum came as a result of a change in public opinion and the tories being worried about losing votes to UKIP. Wanting to leave the EU used to be considered a right-wing issue up until about 5 years ago (I remember David Cameron referred to UKIP as a bunch of lunatics or something similar) and I believe this was because the mainstream parties were too scared to address the issue through fear of seeming politically incorrect. Now public opinion has changed they’ve been forced to address it and even Ed Miliband was talking about reforming the EU. Fair play to Farage, whether you like him or not he's turned this in to a mainstream issue which is good for the country (and should have been done a long time ago).

The majority of politicians might support staying in the EU but they also supported things like the Iraq war, running at an unmanageable deficit, the Westminster expenses practice and Scotland remaining part of the UK (I was personally undecided on this and didn’t have a vote anyway). Many politicians are out of touch with the public so I don’t feel compelled to agree with them.

In terms of voters, I’m sure most everyone on here knows people in favour of leaving and most won’t be right wing or read the Daily Mail.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I agree with some of what you’re saying however IMO the referendum came as a result of a change in public opinion and the tories being worried about losing votes to UKIP. Wanting to leave the EU used to be considered a right-wing issue up until about 5 years ago (I remember David Cameron referred to UKIP as a bunch of lunatics or something similar) and I believe this was because the mainstream parties were too scared to address the issue through fear of seeming politically incorrect. Now public opinion has changed they’ve been forced to address it and even Ed Miliband was talking about reforming the EU. Fair play to Farage, whether you like him or not he's turned this in to a mainstream issue which is good for the country (and should have been done a long time ago).

The majority of politicians might support staying in the EU but they also supported things like the Iraq war, running at an unmanageable deficit, the Westminster expenses practice and Scotland remaining part of the UK (I was personally undecided on this and didn’t have a vote anyway). Many politicians are out of touch with the public so I don’t feel compelled to agree with them.

In terms of voters, I’m sure most everyone on here knows people in favour of leaving and most won’t be right wing or read the Daily Mail.

You make a fair point regarding UKIP: they played a major role in applying pressure on EU exit. But their level of support amongst the electorate isn't huge and is largely confined to south of England amongst Eurosceptic ex-Tories. Their analysis of the EU is firmly right wing; indeed Farage called UKIP 'the true heirs of Thatcherism' a couple of years ago, which underlines my point regarding the context of the debate. UKIP and their ilk regard the EU as a socialist superstate which is holding Britain back. They want to tear up our environmental commitments, and those workplace rights and human right afforded by the EU.

There are advocates of leaving on the left: those who see the EU as the polar opposite of how UKIP see it, i.e. a neo-liberal organisation committed to globalisation. But have we heard their voices at all, and will we hear them during the debate?

There are those of all shades of opinion who are concerned about democratic accountability. Then there are the conspiracy theorists who fear that megalomaniac bureaucrats in Brussels want to control our lives.

For me it comes to down to fundamental questions: what are the proposed benefits of leaving? Who is making these claims? In whose interests are they making these claims? If we were to leave, who would really benefit and who would lose out? My opinion is the winners would be people like Nigel Farage and John Redwood, whilst the losers would be those without access to wealth and power. I'm internationalist and believe that cooperation is preferable to cut throat competition. There are things about the EU I don't like e.g. it's free market philosophy, but it's a judgement call.

[HappyAsHellas]

If what the EU did to Greece is viewed as left wing then someone, somewhere has been terribly wrong. A democratically elected left wing government of a sovereign state was dictated to concerning it's own policies. I understand of course that the piper calls the tune, but for me that was a real eye opener into the true goings on of what has to be the most unaccountable shower of fascists I have ever seen.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If what the EU did to Greece is viewed as left wing then someone, somewhere has been terribly wrong. A democratically elected left wing government of a sovereign state was dictated to concerning it's own policies. I understand of course that the piper calls the tune, but for me that was a real eye opener into the true goings on of what has to be the most unaccountable shower of fascists I have ever seen.

It's an excellent point, but of course that was a consequence of monetary union between countries with entirely different economies and separate fiscal policies.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

For me it comes to down to fundamental questions: what are the proposed benefits of leaving? Who is making these claims? In whose interests are they making these claims? If we were to leave, who would really benefit and who would lose out? My opinion is the winners would be people like Nigel Farage and John Redwood, whilst the losers would be those without access to wealth and power. I'm internationalist and believe that cooperation is preferable to cut throat competition. There are things about the EU I don't like e.g. it's free market philosophy, but it's a judgement call.

For me, the main motivation for (considering) voting to leave is a lack of faith in politicians. The EU has changed beyond recognition since it was first formed and politicians should never have agreed to some of the undesirable changes that Cameron's deal has gone a very small way to addressing. We're not voting for the status quo plus minor changes, we're voting to give politicians the power to change the EU in anyway they see fit for another 30+ years and I just don't trust their judgement.

I also worry staying in will involve an invite for Turkey at some point - it's been talked about for a while but it's the first time they've really had something the EU needs - a border they can manage. And if we let Turkey in then where do we draw the line.

The initial EU format made sense when it was a small number of countries with similar economies but that's not the case anymore. I agree completely with the post above about Greece and they should never have been asked to join in the first place. Any reasonable foresight would have seen something like this happening - they do not have a 'western' economy and the EU should not be trying to enforce one on them.

It's difficult to say who the winners would be if we leave but I don't see why it should only be people who are already wealthy. You could argue it would be the low paid workers being undercut by Eastern Europeans (and the Eastern Europeans themselves if they're being taken advantage of). Perhaps the population would decrease and there would be more affordable house and less pressure on schools and transport networks. I guess Farage would become unemployed and Redwood will retire a slimy ******* either way.

[RyeSloan]

It's an excellent point, but of course that was a consequence of monetary union between countries with entirely different economies and separate fiscal policies.

Which of course could be used to describe a large section of the EU!

Anyway the Greece tragedy was indeed a result of the above but the outcome that was forced on them certainly wasn't.

[RyeSloan]

You make a fair point regarding UKIP: they played a major role in applying pressure on EU exit. But their level of support amongst the electorate isn't huge and is largely confined to south of England amongst Eurosceptic ex-Tories. Their analysis of the EU is firmly right wing; indeed Farage called UKIP 'the true heirs of Thatcherism' a couple of years ago, which underlines my point regarding the context of the debate. UKIP and their ilk regard the EU as a socialist superstate which is holding Britain back. They want to tear up our environmental commitments, and those workplace rights and human right afforded by the EU. There are advocates of leaving on the left: those who see the EU as the polar opposite of how UKIP see it, i.e. a neo-liberal organisation committed to globalisation. But have we heard their voices at all, and will we hear them during the debate? There are those of all shades of opinion who are concerned about democratic accountability. Then there are the conspiracy theorists who fear that megalomaniac bureaucrats in Brussels want to control our lives. For me it comes to down to fundamental questions: what are the proposed benefits of leaving? Who is making these claims? In whose interests are they making these claims? If we were to leave, who would really benefit and who would lose out? My opinion is the winners would be people like Nigel Farage and John Redwood, whilst the losers would be those without access to wealth and power. I'm internationalist and believe that cooperation is preferable to cut throat competition. There are things about the EU I don't like e.g. it's free market philosophy, but it's a judgement call.

It would of course be possible to have environmental commitments and workplace rights without the EU....commitments and rights decided by the UK Parliament not by Brussels.

I'm also not so sure about your wealth and power point, the EU seems beholden to those with vested interests so there is plenty protectionism going on already, would a stand alone UK really be any worse (or better) in that regard?

As ever in drawn back to my cynical perspective that in or out it won't really matter although I must admit to being rather curious to see what would happen if it was an out vote...barring an apoplectic SNP I'm wagering not very much really.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It would of course be possible to have environmental commitments and workplace rights without the EU....commitments and rights decided by the UK Parliament not by Brussels.

I'm also not so sure about your wealth and power point, the EU seems beholden to those with vested interests so there is plenty protectionism going on already, would a stand alone UK really be any worse (or better) in that regard?

As ever in drawn back to my cynical perspective that in or out it won't really matter although I must admit to being rather curious to see what would happen if it was an out vote...barring an apoplectic SNP I'm wagering not very much really.

I'm very doubtful at the issue I've placed in bold. The Eurosceptic wing of the Conservative Party, along with UKIP, wants out of the EU so it can abolish the rights we enjoy under EU legislation, and in so doing would have the support of the right wing press, which dominates the newspaper market. As Beefster mentioned earlier in the thread, most of the politicians advocating leaving want Britain to undercut the EU from the outside, in terms of rights and pay. Now, who would benefit from that, and who would suffer? I think we all know from our experiences of Thatcherism.

I'm convinced we're better cooperating with our European partners, than we would be by going down the sweatshop economy route. We already have some opt outs which leave Britons less well protected in the workplace than the rest of the EU, and leaving would, IMO, lead to their total abolition. The consequence of that, I'm sure, would be Scotland's departure from the U.K. after a second independence referendum.

Does anyone know what the latest opinion poll within Scotland is regarding the EU referendum?

[Hibrandenburg]

Living in Europe there's no way I would choose to give up the rights I have here to live in a tory dominated UK. From this perspective it's baffling how anyone would even consider it.

[steakbake]

Living in Europe there's no way I would choose to give up the rights I have here to live in a tory dominated UK. From this perspective it's baffling how anyone would even consider it.

Yet they do... as bad as the referendum result was (just in my opinion), the 2015 election made that feel worse. How do people vote for these d***heads? I think if people voted for brexit, on the back of Farage, BoJo etc I'd lose faith in humanity.

[(((Fergus)))]

Living in Europe there's no way I would choose to give up the rights I have here to live in a tory dominated UK. From this perspective it's baffling how anyone would even consider it.

There are lots of Germans in the UK too, possibly more, so we would have a bilateral agreement.

[Beefster]

This is already sounding like a carbon copy of the Scottish referendum. Pretty ironic hearing folk using the same arguments that they were dismissing a year ago.

[Hibrandenburg]

This is already sounding like a carbon copy of the Scottish referendum. Pretty ironic hearing folk using the same arguments that they were dismissing a year ago.

Now that might be a valid point if it wasn't for the huge difference between the UK union and European membership.

[CapitalGreen]

This is already sounding like a carbon copy of the Scottish referendum. Pretty ironic hearing folk using the same arguments that they were dismissing a year ago.

Beefster's Law - As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison or reference involving the Scottish referendum approaches 1.

[RyeSloan]

This is already sounding like a carbon copy of the Scottish referendum. Pretty ironic hearing folk using the same arguments that they were dismissing a year ago.

More like a photographic negative...risks of leaving are too high is now the argument of some of those that supported independence.

It's not a directly comparable situation but to some it seems it's is...anything the Tories might support they want the opposite, right or wrong, facts or no facts, debate or no debate.

My prediction is a damp squib where the majority vote to stay in and we continue to tie ourselves to the EU, the only question is whether those supporting Brexit will claim it's all an establishment fix, that the electorate was fooled by biased media and start demanding another vote as soon as this one has been completed ;-)

[bigwheel]

More like a photographic negative...risks of leaving are too high is now the argument of some of those that supported independence.

It's not a directly comparable situation but to some it seems it's is...anything the Tories might support they want the opposite, right or wrong, facts or no facts, debate or no debate.

My prediction is a damp squib where the majority vote to stay in and we continue to tie ourselves to the EU, the only question is whether those supporting Brexit will claim it's all an establishment fix, that the electorate was fooled by biased media and start demanding another vote as soon as this one has been completed ;-)


well there are significant Tory voices on both sides of this debate, so that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny...

We are certainly seeing some "reverse engineering" of the arguments from both camps. Let's hope that this campaign connects with the whole of the population in the way the independence debates did..that will be a positive thing for UK politics whatever the outcome...

[Peevemor]

More like a photographic negative...risks of leaving are too high is now the argument of some of those that supported independence.

It's not a directly comparable situation but to some it seems it's is...anything the Tories might support they want the opposite, right or wrong, facts or no facts, debate or no debate.

My prediction is a damp squib where the majority vote to stay in and we continue to tie ourselves to the EU, the only question is whether those supporting Brexit will claim it's all an establishment fix, that the electorate was fooled by biased media and start demanding another vote as soon as this one has been completed ;-)

Eh? The vast majority of those who supported independence were, and indeed remain, pro-Europe.

[mmmmhibby]

Winners and Losers

Winners
Big corporations, banks and the establishment for starters, throw in middle class Europe. Farmers, doctors and lawyers on the whole get a good deal. The average British farmer gets £32,000 subsidy and 80% grant for new machinery like tractors etc. The legal aid system spends massive amounts money on say, asylum claims, deportations orders etc, thus lining lawyers pockets no end

Losers
The working class. uncontrolled immigration has produced greater competition for jobs thus leading to wage compression in UK in many sectors, this maximizing profit for the big corporations/businesses and people like farmers. This also pushes up house prices and reduces working class living standards, increases job insecurity, puts extra strain on infrastructure like the hospitals, schools etc.

So,its no surprise that the media are telling us all that we should stay in EU.....they all have jolly good deal 'on the take' from the EU gravy trough!!

[RyeSloan]

Eh? The vast majority of those who supported independence were, and indeed remain, pro-Europe.

As you know that's still an argument I have trouble understanding ;-)

I meant in terms of the 'risk'...anecdotal I know but I have seen a number of pro independent voices saying that the risk of leaving the EU is too great to contemplate. I was merely pointing out that those same people were rather dismissive of the risks of leaving the UK. It's not universal of course but I do struggle to understand that logic as well!

[Peevemor]

As you know that's still an argument I have trouble understanding ;-)

I meant in terms of the 'risk'...anecdotal I know but I have seen a number of pro independent voices saying that the risk of leaving the EU is too great to contemplate. I was merely pointing out that those same people were rather dismissive of the risks of leaving the UK. It's not universal of course but I do struggle to understand that logic as well!

Why? If rUK were to leave Europe, then iScotland would have 2 huge trading partners on it's doorstep.

Lovely stuff.

[steakbake]

Winners and Losers

Winners
Big corporations, banks and the establishment for starters, throw in middle class Europe. Farmers, doctors and lawyers on the whole get a good deal. The average British farmer gets £32,000 subsidy and 80% grant for new machinery like tractors etc. The legal aid system spends massive amounts money on say, asylum claims, deportations orders etc, thus lining lawyers pockets no end

Losers
The working class. uncontrolled immigration has produced greater competition for jobs thus leading to wage compression in UK in many sectors, this maximizing profit for the big corporations/businesses and people like farmers. This also pushes up house prices and reduces working class living standards, increases job insecurity, puts extra strain on infrastructure like the hospitals, schools etc.

So,its no surprise that the media are telling us all that we should stay in EU.....they all have jolly good deal 'on the take' from the EU gravy trough!!

Asylum claims and deportations... not of EU citizens, it doesn't. We'd have an international obligation whether we are in or whether we are out. Asylum claims and deportations do not come from EU nationals. And while here, the European Court of Human Rights is not an EU institution. If we want out of that and the convention - again, nothing to do with the EU - we can join the enlightened democracy of Belarus on the sidelines.

On immigration: extensive work exists which indeed shows that migration compresses wages in some sectors of the economy, but not all. This is true in most developed countries in the world and whether we are in or out, we will require willing, young labour to take up jobs that the resident population simply do not wish or are unable to do - that much is a fact. Migrants across all the categories, make a net contribution of £20bn to the UK economy - this takes into account hospitals, schools etc. The recently introduced Immigration Health Surcharge, that most non-EU categories have to pay, has brought in 100million in one year. At the median to upper end of wage scales, migration increases salaries. Benefit claims - there is no attributable data either way but it is considered to be around 2% of all benefit claims go outside of the UK. It's hard to tell which go to UK citizens and which do not. Consider, for example, that with a third of the UK citizens in Spain being of retirement age, they are all eligible for winter fuel allowance.

Effectively, Leave is an argument to pull up the drawbridge and pretend that we don't belong to a globalised world and pretend we can turn the clock back to the 1950s... when we were looking to our then colonies for bus drivers and nurses and relied on migrant labourers from over the Irish Sea to help with the reconstruction.

[RyeSloan]

Winners and Losers Winners Big corporations, banks and the establishment for starters, throw in middle class Europe. Farmers, doctors and lawyers on the whole get a good deal. The average British farmer gets £32,000 subsidy and 80% grant for new machinery like tractors etc. The legal aid system spends massive amounts money on say, asylum claims, deportations orders etc, thus lining lawyers pockets no end Losers The working class. uncontrolled immigration has produced greater competition for jobs thus leading to wage compression in UK in many sectors, this maximizing profit for the big corporations/businesses and people like farmers. This also pushes up house prices and reduces working class living standards, increases job insecurity, puts extra strain on infrastructure like the hospitals, schools etc. So,its no surprise that the media are telling us all that we should stay in EU.....they all have jolly good deal 'on the take' from the EU gravy trough!!

I don't understand how wage compression can drive up house prices...you could try restrictive planning rules, interest rates nailed to the floor and a multitude of government interventions as a more plausible explanation.

And despite huge subsidy I'm not sure farming is as profitable as you say although the increase in land values has probably compensated quite a bit on that front.

The 'increased pressure' on services due to immigration is actually a bit of a myth...immigration does substantially more to support these services (think foreign cleaners, nurses, doctors etc) than it does the other way around. There was a good analysis done in England recently that showed the areas where services were most under pressure was actually those areas that had lower rates of immigration.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a growing population is an absolute must for a growing economy, there is very few (if any) examples of economies growing at healthy rates long term against declining populations. If a countries birth rate is low (like the UK and most of the developed world) then immigration is an absolute must. The concept that we can just pull up the draw bridge and we will all become wealthier because their is less and less workers is a totally fallacy.

[RyeSloan]

Why? If rUK were to leave Europe, then iScotland would have 2 huge trading partners on it's doorstep. Lovely stuff.

But iScotland would still be in the EU so trade with rUK would be severely restricted would it not?

Don't get me wrong I'm all for an iScotland but one that is outside of the EU and outside of the BoE...the nuclear option if you want! If someone fancies proposing that and we could become a truly independent nation then I would quite happily support that :-)

[Beefster]

Now that might be a valid point if it wasn't for the huge difference between the UK union and European membership.


Beefster's Law - As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison or reference involving the Scottish referendum approaches 1.

Before you get bent out of shape, gentlemen, I was referring to both sides and it was more a dig at the hypocrisy of politicians than anything.

I do like having my own law though.

[Peevemor]

But iScotland would still be in the EU so trade with rUK would be severely restricted would it not?

Why? Scotland already does a huge amount of trade outwith the EU.


Don't get me wrong I'm all for an iScotland but one that is outside of the EU and outside of the BoE...the nuclear option if you want! If someone fancies proposing that and we could become a truly independent nation then I would quite happily support that :-)

All small nations are dependent on others to an extent.

[steakbake]

Why? Scotland already does a huge amount of trade outwith the EU.



All small nations are dependent on others to an extent.

:agree: There's a massive difference between independence and isolation.

[RyeSloan]

Why? Scotland already does a huge amount of trade outwith the EU. All small nations are dependent on others to an extent.

Depends on what you mean by huge I suppose...really Scotland exports largely to the rest of the UK and half of the reminder goes to the EU.

So if we want to talk risks with regards to exports then leaving the UK massively outweighs the risk of leaving the EU.

There are of course plenty of other considerations to take account of!

[Peevemor]

Depends on what you mean by huge I suppose...really Scotland exports largely to the rest of the UK and half of the reminder goes to the EU.

So if we want to talk risks with regards to exports then leaving the UK massively outweighs the risk of leaving the EU.

There are of course plenty of other considerations to take account of!


http://www.statista.com/statistics/425066/scotch-whisky-export-markets-by-value-in-the-united-kingdom/

[RyeSloan]

http://www.statista.com/statistics/425066/scotch-whisky-export-markets-by-value-in-the-united-kingdom/

You do know we export more than just whisky ;-)

[Peevemor]

You do know we export more than just whisky ;-)

All the better.

[mmmmhibby]

I don't understand how wage compression can drive up house prices...you could try restrictive planning rules, interest rates nailed to the floor and a multitude of government interventions as a more plausible explanation.

And despite huge subsidy I'm not sure farming is as profitable as you say although the increase in land values has probably compensated quite a bit on that front.

The 'increased pressure' on services due to immigration is actually a bit of a myth...immigration does substantially more to support these services (think foreign cleaners, nurses, doctors etc) than it does the other way around. There was a good analysis done in England recently that showed the areas where services were most under pressure was actually those areas that had lower rates of immigration.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a growing population is an absolute must for a growing economy, there is very few (if any) examples of economies growing at healthy rates long term against declining populations. If a countries birth rate is low (like the UK and most of the developed world) then immigration is an absolute must. The concept that we can just pull up the draw bridge and we will all become wealthier because their is less and less workers is a totally fallacy.

To be fair you have some valid points, however your points on immigration have no substance. Do you think any EU born doctors, nurses etc would simply vanish post-Brexit??? A points style skilled based immigration policy is a much more sensible method as doctors and nurses from countries like India, New Zealand to name a few are discriminated against in favour of unskilled EU migrants.

[mmmmhibby]

I don't understand how wage compression can drive up house prices...you could try restrictive planning rules, interest rates nailed to the floor and a multitude of government interventions as a more plausible explanation.

And despite huge subsidy I'm not sure farming is as profitable as you say although the increase in land values has probably compensated quite a bit on that front.

The 'increased pressure' on services due to immigration is actually a bit of a myth...immigration does substantially more to support these services (think foreign cleaners, nurses, doctors etc) than it does the other way around. There was a good analysis done in England recently that showed the areas where services were most under pressure was actually those areas that had lower rates of immigration.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, a growing population is an absolute must for a growing economy, there is very few (if any) examples of economies growing at healthy rates long term against declining populations. If a countries birth rate is low (like the UK and most of the developed world) then immigration is an absolute must. The concept that we can just pull up the draw bridge and we will all become wealthier because their is less and less workers is a totally fallacy.

Your last point is total nonsense....never once mentioned wealth. Your concept is that we wouldn't able to run our country without political input from unelected European nobodies imposing regulations on small businesses by the hundreds. For me, EU is done, democracy has fell in favour of neo-liberalism. Look what they did to the Greeks.....unbelievable levels of austerity measures.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Steakbake makes a very good point, I think, regarding the confusion surrounding EU freedom of movement and asylum. The latter has nothing to do with being in the EU. We'd still have obligations under international law to accept those fleeing war zones and/or persecution. Furthermore, I think anyone who thinks the UK is too lax in it's asylum policy is seriously misguided and lacking compassion; but that's just my personal opinion. The fact is asylum and freedom of movement of EU citizens are entirely separate issues, but some in the out campaign, mentioning no names (The Daily mail) deliberately and mischievously entwine them.

[mmmmhibby]

:agree: There's a massive difference between independence and isolation.

Isolation???? Would Germany suddenly stop selling cars to UK?....Nope as we are there biggest customer. Same with France regarding food and wine....do you honestly think Europe ceases trading with the UK in the event of a Leave vote? Do you honestly think countries like Germany, France etc are gonna cease trading with there biggest trade customer...its nonsense...trade would resume as normal as its in everyones interests to do so. World Trade Organisation al see to that.

[RyeSloan]

Your last point is total nonsense....never once mentioned wealth. Your concept is that we wouldn't able to run our country without political input from unelected European nobodies imposing regulations on small businesses by the hundreds. For me, EU is done, democracy has fell in favour of neo-liberalism. Look what they did to the Greeks.....unbelievable levels of austerity measures.

I can assure you it's not nonsense. It was you that said uncontrolled immigration was driving up house prices and driving down wages. I merely pointed out that for a nation to grow its economy and more importantly to become wealthier (for that you can read increasing standards of living and real wages) then immigration is a must for a nation where it's birth rate is resulting in a smaller and smaller working population. The point was totally unrelated to who was deciding the immigration policy just that whoever it was would have to face that undisputed fact.

And if you think the EU is a neo liberal organisation then yer bonkers. It's a centralising, regulatory force that does little to promote the true ethos of free enterprise, competition and price discovery. I suppose though the term neo liberal can mean many things to many people these days so it's not an overly useful description.

We agree on one thing though, it's treatment of Greece but that seems contrary to your point...a true laissez faire approach would have been to let it default and fall out of the euro. Painful in the short term but probably very successful in the long term however that was over ruled simply to protect the euro project and of course the creditors (dare I say it German banks). Not much free market economy thinking going on there, just the usual vested interest protectionism that the EU is rather masterful at.

[easty]

Is it as childish as this with EU Parliament debates?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35651000

So cringey and embarrassing. :bitchy:

[mmmmhibby]

We need to consider the 'cost' of access to the EU free market we currently pay. The billions a year in membership are essentially a lump sum to access the market. It equates to 7% tax on all goods....not really free is it?

[AndyM_1875]

We need to consider the 'cost' of access to the EU free market we currently pay. The billions a year in membership are essentially a lump sum to access the market. It equates to 7% tax on all goods....not really free is it?

And we'd still need to pay the EU to get access to the market if we left the EU as both Norway and Switzerland do. Except we wouldn't have the arrangements in place that both those countries do and such agreements take years.

The EU is not some utopia, there are lots of thing I really don't like about it and it's treatment of Greece was disgraceful. The Troika need to be challenged and scrutinized at every opportunity. But you won't do that if UK plc has chucked its toys out of the pram and walked away to some rain lashed future as a fading, insular, unimportant nation. One which would have just trashed all it's trading arrangements with it's biggest two markets the EU and the USA which has already stated it will not grant a Brexit UK any form of special dispensation.

What we actually need to do is consider the cost of Brexit which for me is nothing more than a right wing Tory/UKIP vanity project that needs putting out of its misery in June.
The cost of jobs, the cost to business and the costs of day to day living which will go up.
That's not something I want any part of.

[Rasta_Hibs]

EU = More centralised power and decision making!

[JeMeSouviens]

And we'd still need to pay the EU to get access to the market if we left the EU as both Norway and Switzerland do. Except we wouldn't have the arrangements in place that both those countries do and such agreements take years.

The EU is not some utopia, there are lots of thing I really don't like about it and it's treatment of Greece was disgraceful. The Troika need to be challenged and scrutinized at every opportunity. But you won't do that if UK plc has chucked its toys out of the pram and walked away to some rain lashed future as a fading, insular, unimportant nation. One which would have just trashed all it's trading arrangements with it's biggest two markets the EU and the USA which has already stated it will not grant a Brexit UK any form of special dispensation.

What we actually need to do is consider the cost of Brexit which for me is nothing more than a right wing Tory/UKIP vanity project that needs putting out of its misery in June.
The cost of jobs, the cost to business and the costs of day to day living which will go up.
That's not something I want any part of.

I think this is the key thing. On Brexit there would be an overwhelming demand from business to get bilateral EU-UK trade agreements in place sharpish, as both Norway and Switzerland have. There would be similar EU pressure to keep access to the UK market as well, so a deal would suit both sides, but the lesson from CH and the Norgs is that you end up pushed into signing up for pretty much all the free movement, etc that the Brexiteers are trying to get away from.

So, overall, I can't see it making much more than a symbolic difference whatever happens.

I think formalised European cooperation is a good thing in principle and am personally all for freedom of trade and movement (and Scotland has a pressing need now and will certainly have in the future for a larger working age population). However, I also think that the European project has gone way beyond what there is popular support for in virtually any country in Europe. I think if the UK stays in, they should attempt to keep building a consensus with other Eurosceptic voices but hopefully focus more on the retention/repatriation of sovereignty rather than xenophobic anti-immigration noises.

[mmmmhibby]

I think this is the key thing. On Brexit there would be an overwhelming demand from business to get bilateral EU-UK trade agreements in place sharpish, as both Norway and Switzerland have. There would be similar EU pressure to keep access to the UK market as well, so a deal would suit both sides, but the lesson from CH and the Norgs is that you end up pushed into signing up for pretty much all the free movement, etc that the Brexiteers are trying to get away from.

So, overall, I can't see it making much more than a symbolic difference whatever happens.

I think formalised European cooperation is a good thing in principle and am personally all for freedom of trade and movement (and Scotland has a pressing need now and will certainly have in the future for a larger working age population). However, I also think that the European project has gone way beyond what there is popular support for in virtually any country in Europe. I think if the UK stays in, they should attempt to keep building a consensus with other Eurosceptic voices but hopefully focus more on the retention/repatriation of sovereignty rather than xenophobic anti-immigration noises.

We trade at a deficit with the EU, meaning we import more than we export, to the tune of £80bn. In a nutshell we are the EUs biggest customer. So the EU are more reliant on UK trade than we are of EU trade. Do people honestly think the EU are gonna cut trade ties with there biggest customer?? Its that simple.

[JeMeSouviens]

We trade at a deficit with the EU, meaning we import more than we export, to the tune of £80bn. In a nutshell we are the EUs biggest customer. So the EU are more reliant on UK trade than we are of EU trade. Do people honestly think the EU are gonna cut trade ties with there biggest customer?? Its that simple.

It cuts both ways and as I said above, there will be pressure from both sides to cut a deal quickly.

However, saying the EU (rEU anyone? :-) ) is more reliant is a bit of a stretch. 45% of UK exports go to the EU, 21% of rEU exports to the UK.

[AndyM_1875]

We trade at a deficit with the EU, meaning we import more than we export, to the tune of £80bn. In a nutshell we are the EUs biggest customer. So the EU are more reliant on UK trade than we are of EU trade. Do people honestly think the EU are gonna cut trade ties with there biggest customer?? Its that simple.

You are aware how the EU works? Belgium has been the first to say they will block any favourable trade deal, post Brexit,with the UK and if one country objects then that's it, there's no deal. It's why getting a post indy Scotland in would be a difficult undertaking due to the objections that would come from Spain who have their own issues with Catalonia and the Basque country.

So in short we (the UK) won't get any treatment like Norway or Switzerland. To get access we will have to pay up and our goods will be hit with restrictive tariffs. Naturally we will impose reciprocal tariffs and what you have done is drive up the cost of goods to Joe Public. You'll find that Joe Public doesn't like his purchasing choice costs being ramped up nor does he like his fortnight in the sun having another £200+ being added on to the cost.

Now I have no objections to people saying they want to leave but please be honest as regards what the consequences will be.

[JeMeSouviens]

You are aware how the EU works? Belgium has been the first to say they will block any favourable trade deal, post Brexit,with the UK and if one country objects then that's it, there's no deal. It's why getting a post indy Scotland in would be a difficult undertaking due to the objections that would come from Spain who have their own issues with Catalonia and the Basque country.

So in short we (the UK) won't get any treatment like Norway or Switzerland. To get access we will have to pay up and our goods will be hit with restrictive tariffs. Naturally we will impose reciprocal tariffs and what you have done is drive up the cost of goods to Joe Public. You'll find that Joe Public doesn't like his purchasing choice costs being ramped up nor does he like his fortnight in the sun having another £200+ being added on to the cost.

Now I have no objections to people saying they want to leave but please be honest as regards what the consequences will be.

Sorry, and as with iScotland there are no guarantees, but it beggars belief that the rEU would block a trade deal with its biggest export market.

[lord bunberry]

You are aware how the EU works? Belgium has been the first to say they will block any favourable trade deal, post Brexit,with the UK and if one country objects then that's it, there's no deal. It's why getting a post indy Scotland in would be a difficult undertaking due to the objections that would come from Spain who have their own issues with Catalonia and the Basque country.

So in short we (the UK) won't get any treatment like Norway or Switzerland. To get access we will have to pay up and our goods will be hit with restrictive tariffs. Naturally we will impose reciprocal tariffs and what you have done is drive up the cost of goods to Joe Public. You'll find that Joe Public doesn't like his purchasing choice costs being ramped up nor does he like his fortnight in the sun having another £200+ being added on to the cost.

Now I have no objections to people saying they want to leave but please be honest as regards what the consequences will be.
Let's be honest here, Belgium would be slapped down and put back in its box if it tried to block a trade deal with the U.K. We would end up with more favourable terms than Norway or Switzerland due to the fact that we're a much bigger market than those 2 countries.
Already this campaign has me losing interest due to false claims and scare tactics by both sides. I will be voting to remain in the EU and I will probably avoid the rest of the campaign in order to retain some sanity :greengrin

[AndyM_1875]

Sorry, and as with iScotland there are no guarantees, but it beggars belief that the rEU would block a trade deal with its biggest export market.

There would be a deal eventually but it would be delayed for a long time, perhaps years. Spain would have blocked immediate access for iScotland just as Belgium, France and perhaps several other slighted nations would block a post Brexit UK gaining immediate access.

[JeMeSouviens]

There would be a deal eventually but it would be delayed for a long time, perhaps years. Spain would have blocked immediate access for iScotland just as Belgium, France and perhaps several other slighted nations would block a post Brexit UK gaining immediate access.

Money talks - or in this case will squeal like a stuck pig. :wink:

[Hibbyradge]

I can't envision ever voting for a coalition which boasts supporters including the likes of Farage and George Galloway.

What's the Monster Raving Loony Party's take on it? Their manifestos and policies are always worth a read.

So that's where I stand.

[Hibbyradge]

I've found the MRLP's stance on the referendum.

Given the choices are In or Out, they're going for Shake it all about!

I think they're on a winner.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I can't envision ever voting for a coalition which boasts supporters including the likes of Farage and George Galloway.

What's the Monster Raving Loony Party's take on it? Their manifestos and policies are always worth a read.

So that's where I stand.


And the BNP

[Rasta_Hibs]

And the BNP

Try not to make it a case of the right wing want out Europe and the left wing wants to stay in. It does the debate no good and is very misleading.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Try not to make it a case of the right wing want out Europe and the left wing wants to stay in. It does the debate no good and is very misleading.

Not doing so, but it's a fact the BNP wants out, along with UKIP. There are those on the far left who also want out; indeed some on the democratic left. But the centre left parties in the UK - Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid, SDLP, - all want to stay in. As I've said before, we've heard nothing from those who want to leave the EU from a left wing analysis; it's all from UKIP and their pals and their message about immigration, welfare etc.

I'm convinced that leaving the EU would damage the vulnerable, the low paid, the insecure most, when those are the people who need most support. They are being misled and encouraged to sign their own suicide note.

[Hibbyradge]

Try not to make it a case of the right wing want out Europe and the left wing wants to stay in. It does the debate no good and is very misleading.

George Galloway isn't right wing.

I think it's more of a case of nutters want out, folk with a semblance of common sense want to stay.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

I'm convinced that leaving the EU would damage the vulnerable, the low paid, the insecure most, when those are the people who need most support. They are being misled and encouraged to sign their own suicide note.

Why? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the logic in that.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see the logic in that.

Think it ties in quite well with the last post from Hibby Radge.

[RyeSloan]

Not doing so, but it's a fact the BNP wants out, along with UKIP. There are those on the far left who also want out; indeed some on the democratic left. But the centre left parties in the UK - Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, Plaid, SDLP, - all want to stay in. As I've said before, we've heard nothing from those who want to leave the EU from a left wing analysis; it's all from UKIP and their pals and their message about immigration, welfare etc. I'm convinced that leaving the EU would damage the vulnerable, the low paid, the insecure most, when those are the people who need most support. They are being misled and encouraged to sign their own suicide note.

So by extension you see the EU as being on the side of the vulnerable, low paid and the most insecure. It's an interesting theory but probably not one the Greeks, Cypriots or the millions of young unemployed across the likes of Spain would necessarily agree with.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

Think it ties in quite well with the last post from Hibby Radge.

What, the nutters are the most wealthy in society and people with common sense are vulnerable? Don't understand the logic in that either. There will be winners and losers throughout the wealth spectrum regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Why do people suddenly care what the mainstream cente parties think anyway? Those pillars of society that voted for the Iraq war and abused expense accounts for years. Most politicians are out of touch with their constituents and I do not believe the mood at Westminster is reflective of the public.

[xyz23jc]

And the BNP


I can't envision ever voting for a coalition which boasts supporters including the likes of Farage and George Galloway.

What's the Monster Raving Loony Party's take on it? Their manifestos and policies are always worth a read.

So that's where I stand.

Don't forget this guy!!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/23/eu-referendum-david-icke-brexit_n_9297112.html

[stoneyburn hibs]

What, the nutters are the most wealthy in society and people with common sense are vulnerable? Don't understand the logic in that either. There will be winners and losers throughout the wealth spectrum regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Why do people suddenly care what the mainstream cente parties think anyway? Those pillars of society that voted for the Iraq war and abused expense accounts for years. Most politicians are out of touch with their constituents and I do. It believe the mood at Westminster is reflective of the public.



By saying that the mood at Westminster is reflective of the public, I really do hope you mean the south east of England ? The rest of the UK has probably never been so detached from their views than it is now.

[Hibbyradge]

By saying that the mood at Westminster is reflective of the public, I really do hope you mean the south east of England ? The rest of the UK has probably never been so detached from their views than it is now.

It's not only the south east of England that votes.

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's not only the south east of England that votes.

But their votes do seem more important than the rest.

[Holmesdale Hibs]

By saying that the mood at Westminster is reflective of the public, I really do hope you mean the south east of England ? The rest of the UK has probably never been so detached from their views than it is now.

An unfortunate typo, I meant is NOT reflective of the public, in the south east or otherwise.

[Hibrandenburg]

I can't envision ever voting for a coalition which boasts supporters including the likes of Farage and George Galloway.

What's the Monster Raving Loony Party's take on it? Their manifestos and policies are always worth a read.

So that's where I stand.

Nigel Trump

[Hibbyradge]

Nigel Trump

Excellent!

[Rasta_Hibs]

The creation of an EU army should be enough reason to want out! The ramifications of an EU Army being created would be huge. An army with no ties to any specific nation or people.

[CropleyWasGod]

The creation of an EU army should be enough reason to want out! The ramifications of an EU Army being created would be huge. An army with no ties to any specific nation or people.
It would be tied to the European electorate to the same extent as the UK army is tied to the UK electorate

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[Rasta_Hibs]

It would be tied to the European electorate to the same extent as the UK army is tied to the UK electorate

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The end of our own UK army and then replace it by being Part of an EU Army?

I cannot think why any UK national would want that!

[CropleyWasGod]

The end of our own UK army and then replace it by being Part of an EU Army?

I cannot think why any UK national would want that!
I'm sure you could.

But my point was about connection, which is the one you raised.

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[Rasta_Hibs]

I'm sure you could.

But my point was about connection, which is the one you raised.

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Ok fair enough, so do you think its a good idea? Replacing our own army with a EU Army?

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok fair enough, so do you think its a good idea? Replacing our own army with a EU Army?

You're probably asking the wrong person, since I'd rather live in a country that followed the Costa Rica model.:greengrin

However, back in the real world, I would be as supportive of a EU army as I would be of a UK one. IMO, it's something that is unlikely to happen for a very long time, and will only happen with some major compromises. There are too many vested interests involved.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok fair enough, so do you think its a good idea? Replacing our own army with a EU Army?

Any different from NATO forces? An amazing show of collaboration between nations.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Any different from NATO forces? An amazing show of collaboration between nations.

NATO is disgrace to all humanity!

[CropleyWasGod]

NATO is disgrace to all humanity!

Do you have examples of that?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Do you have examples of that?

When they drop bombs on innocents and allow the US to make Europe a US Military base.

[CropleyWasGod]

When they drop bombs on innocents and allow the US to make Europe a US Military base.

Point taken.

But is the UK, and its armed forces, any cleaner in those respects?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Point taken.

But is the UK, and its armed forces, any cleaner in those respects?

I'd like to think so yes!

But we surely have more control on when and where to use our army if it was our own?

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd like to think so yes!

But we surely have more control on when and where to use our army if it was our own?

We have had US bases on UK soil since the 40's.

And who is this "we"? if you're talking about the UK electorate, I would repeat what I said earlier, that "we" would have as much control over an EU army as we currently have over the UK one. In essence, very little.

[Rasta_Hibs]

We have had US bases on UK soil since the 40's.

And who is this "we"? if you're talking about the UK electorate, I would repeat what I said earlier, that "we" would have as much control over an EU army as we currently have over the UK one. In essence, very little.

We as in the UK electorate.

I think we would have less control over it by definition. Why would anyone want to continue down a road to more centralised power I do not know. Now we have people welcoming a EU Army.

What next? Abolish all nation states and have United States of Europe?

All of the EU would be under Washington Rule. Granted we are at that point now but it we should be changing direction and becoming more democratic more localised power not centralised.

[Moulin Yarns]

We as in the UK electorate.

I think we would have less control over it by definition. Why would anyone want to continue down a road to more centralised power I do not know. Now we have people welcoming a EU Army.

What next? Abolish all nation states and have United States of Europe?

All of the EU would be under Washington Rule. Granted we are at that point now but it we should be changing direction and becoming more democratic more localised power not centralised.

WOW! You have eventually come up with something we can agree on. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

I'd like to think so yes!

But we surely have more control on when and where to use our army if it was our own?

We, as in the electorate, have absolutely no control over where and when our armed forces are deployed. As with Trident, the decision is out of our hands and in the hands of a few individuals, whether you like it or not.

[CropleyWasGod]

We as in the UK electorate.

I think we would have less control over it by definition. Why would anyone want to continue down a road to more centralised power I do not know. Now we have people welcoming a EU Army.

What next? Abolish all nation states and have United States of Europe?

All of the EU would be under Washington Rule. Granted we are at that point now but it we should be changing direction and becoming more democratic more localised power not centralised.

So are you in favour of smaller independent states like Scotland and Catalonia, with no foreign powers having bases on their territory?

[Hibrandenburg]

I'd like to think so yes!

But we surely have more control on when and where to use our army if it was our own?

I don't get this. Nearly the whole of Europe's military leaders were telling us to keep out of the conflicts in the middle east but because we have complete control over our military we went ahead and started bombing anyway. On the other hand you (rightly) express your disgust at the killing of innocent civilians in conflicts that Britain joined of its own free will(but then blame Nato)and pretty much against the popular wishes of the electorate. Also on an other thread you show little or no compassion for those leaving the areas of conflict that the independent British Military helped create. The only thread of continuity that I can see in your seemingly contradicting political map is a strong sense of British Nationalism. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I don't get this. Nearly the whole of Europe's military leaders were telling us to keep out of the conflicts in the middle east but because we have complete control over our military we went ahead and started bombing anyway. On the other hand you (rightly) express your disgust at the killing of innocent civilians in conflicts that Britain joined of its own free will(but then blame Nato)and pretty much against the popular wishes of the electorate. Also on an other thread you show little or no compassion for those leaving the areas of conflict that the independent British Military helped create. The only thread of continuity that I can see in your seemingly contradicting political map is a strong sense of British Nationalism. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do not own any union jack memorabilia thank you very much.

It was NATO forces bombing Libya was it not?

I have lots of compassion but its foolish to have an open door policy as the events unfolding clearly demonstrate!

[Hibrandenburg]

I do not own any union jack memorabilia thank you very much.

It was NATO forces bombing Libya was it not?

I have lots of compassion but its foolish to have an open door policy as the events unfolding clearly demonstrate!

So we're back to the events unfolding argument. I suppose you're like some people I know over here in Berlin who like to point out some crimes carried out by immigrants every 4 or 5 weeks and use that to justify to themselves their racist beliefs, they do this whilst forgetting that alone in Berlin there is on average 1400 criminal acts REPORTED on a daily basis. Why aren't they outraged about the child abuse carried out by Germans, the rapes, racial assaults, murders and all the other heinous crimes that make the news? Because it's who carries out the crime and not the crime that's important to them. See yourself?

[Rasta_Hibs]

So we're back to the events unfolding argument. I suppose you're like some people I know over here in Berlin who like to point out some crimes carried out by immigrants every 4 or 5 weeks and use that to justify to themselves their racist beliefs, they do this whilst forgetting that alone in Berlin there is on average 1400 criminal acts REPORTED on a daily basis. Why aren't they outraged about the child abuse carried out by Germans, the rapes, racial assaults, murders and all the other heinous crimes that make the news? Because it's who carries out the crime and not the crime that's important to them. See yourself?

I was thinking about the thousands trying break through boarder crossings.

Merkels open door policy has put petrol on that fire.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was thinking about the thousands trying break through boarder crossings.

Merkels open door policy has put petrol on that fire.

And how would our exit from the EU change that?

[Rasta_Hibs]

And how would our exit from the EU change that?

Having more control on who can enter the country. Then if turkey is admitted into the EU which they will be. Then it truly will be Muslim apocalypse in Europe.

[allmodcons]

Having more control on who can enter the country. Then if turkey is admitted into the EU which they will be. Then it truly will be Muslim apocalypse in Europe.

Class! This from someone who thinks the SNP are narrow minded nationalists.

Muslim apocalypse :rolleyes:

[Rasta_Hibs]

Class! This from someone who thinks the SNP are narrow minded nationalists.

Muslim apocalypse :rolleyes:

Was tongue In cheek. But I'm not going to lie I don't want a huge increase in the amount of Muslims coming into UK. The small percentage we have already can shut down free speech.

[CropleyWasGod]

So are you in favour of smaller independent states like Scotland and Catalonia, with no foreign powers having bases on their territory?

Bumping this, Rasta, in case you didn't see it.

[Moulin Yarns]

Bumping this, Rasta, in case you didn't see it.

You shouldn't hold your breath. He has seen it, but it doesn't fit his anti Muslim/anti immigration agenda. I am beginning to think Rasta is running the Trump election campaign.

[Green Man]

Was tongue In cheek. But I'm not going to lie I don't want a huge increase in the amount of Muslims coming into UK. The small percentage we have already can shut down free speech.

How can they shut down free speech?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Bumping this, Rasta, in case you didn't see it.

I did see this but it is hard to respond when being chased by a pack of hungry liberals online!

Id like an independent UK for sure. I think things should be judged on a case by case basis. If the people want independence let them have it!

[Rasta_Hibs]

How can they shut down free speech?

Try drawing a picture of Muhammed and get it published in the UK or say anything about their religion yi will get hounded for it!

[CropleyWasGod]

Try drawing a picture of Muhammed and get it published in the UK or say anything about their religion yi will get hounded for it!

Quite simply, it's against Islam to show any depiction of Mohammad (PBUH). To comply with that shows respect. Not to do shows the opposite.

And if you say anything against Islam, or any religion, you have to be prepared to defend your position. Try saying anything against Judaism, or the Catholic church, and you will have their hierarchy arguing with you.

[CropleyWasGod]

I did see this but it is hard to respond when being chased by a pack of hungry liberals online!

Id like an independent UK for sure. I think things should be judged on a case by case basis. If the people want independence let them have it!

An independent UK, outwith NATO, with no US bases?

[Green Man]

Try drawing a picture of Muhammed and get it published in the UK or say anything about their religion yi will get hounded for it!

As CWG says it's a matter of respect. If you disrespect someone's beliefs, religious or otherwise, you should expect a reaction. There are plenty of things you can say that will get you hounded - it's not a Muslim thing. While people might get upset about what you say, your right to say it hasn't been shut down.

[Moulin Yarns]

Try drawing a picture of Muhammed and get it published in the UK or say anything about their religion yi will get hounded for it!

Free speech is very easy to defend so long as you don't offend anyone. Would you not agree that saying anything against anyone's religions, sexual preferences, colour, race or nationality that is bound to offend? By being tolerant and inclusive and not going out of one's way to be offensive is the way forward, not shouting the odds about people who are different from you.

One way to solve this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35667939 is to recruit from abroad, that means encouraging immigration, from India, the Phillipines, or would you rather continue the staff shortages because a proportion of those being recruited don't fit your preferred demographic?

[Moulin Yarns]

A question for you Rasta, what has changed?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?248485-Manipulation-of-Society&highlight=

I've not read the whole thread, but you come out with this, then a few years later cannot say a good thing about Muslims


Religion – I do not see why these beliefs should cause so much trouble in the world. For me it’s should be simple. If we can all agree that everyone is a free person on the earth and can express themselves in any way they choose that doesn’t harm others then it should not be of concern to anyone what other peoples religions are or if they believe in God or not. If all the world’s religions are teachings with a message of love within their meaning then surely all the world’s religions follow one God, which is love for one another. Even if your mind doesn’t agree with the concept of religion or God but you have love in your heart then that should be enough for anyone’s standards?

[Hibrandenburg]

Having more control on who can enter the country. Then if turkey is admitted into the EU which they will be. Then it truly will be Muslim apocalypse in Europe.

Berlin is the third biggest Turkish populated city in the world. As far as I can see they've still to impose sharia law on us. Their pesky work ethic has also seen poor German squatters being deprived of vacant ruined buildings by these rampaging Turks boosting the inner-city's economy and helping the Berlin economy by aiding urban regeneration. There's another flip side to the Turkish invasion over here and that's that they're taking some of our European values back home with them and sowing the seeds of values that we hold dear to us. Let's not forget that that's how our own enlightenment spread, through word of mouth and others observing the advantages it brought. You can't spread enlightenment through fences or subjugation.

[Rasta_Hibs]

A question for you Rasta, what has changed?

http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?248485-Manipulation-of-Society&highlight=

I've not read the whole thread, but you come out with this, then a few years later cannot say a good thing about Muslims

Well I used to consider myself very left wing in my views.

But to be honest a lot changed. I woke up to what I think is a big agenda that is being worked on in many levels and in some ways I have fallen victim to it. Im working just now and its going to take a while to explain what changed in my views but ill get to it.

[CapitalGreen]

Im working just now and its going to take a while to explain what changed in my views but ill get to it.

Odds on that it was a youtube video.

[Hibrandenburg]

Well I used to consider myself very left wing in my views.

But to be honest a lot changed. I woke up to what I think is a big agenda that is being worked on in many levels and in some ways I have fallen victim to it. Im working just now and its going to take a while to explain what changed in my views but ill get to it.

You used to be a socialist?

[Rasta_Hibs]

You used to be a socialist?

Aye ill I realised that giving out benefits is helping no one in the long run.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Odds on that it was a youtube video.

It's everywhere.

Ask the scottish independence campaign if there was an agenda in the media. Or ask Brexit campaigners if there is an agenda in the media. As I said many levels.

[ronaldo7]

Try drawing a picture of Muhammed and get it published in the UK or say anything about their religion yi will get hounded for it!

16201:aok:

[easty]

16201:aok:

Did you draw that?

[ronaldo7]

Did you draw that?

Naw.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I cant seem to copy and paste links for some reason into the thread.

NATO today have said that ISIS are spreading like cancer in Europe due to ISIS taking advantage of the refugee & migrant crisis.

Is this just blatant scare mongering by the right wing or is this a genuine concern? Has this risk been amplified by Merkels open door policy? A mess created by design?

Thoughts anyone?

[easty]

I cant seem to copy and paste links for some reason into the thread.

NATO today have said that ISIS are spreading like cancer in Europe due to ISIS taking advantage of the refugee & migrant crisis.

Is this just blatant scare mongering by the right wing or is this a genuine concern? Has this risk been amplified by Merkels open door policy? A mess created by design?

Thoughts anyone?

They surely didn't word it like that?

edit - just googled it and they have said it exactly like that.

[Moulin Yarns]

I cant seem to copy and paste links for some reason into the thread.

NATO today have said that ISIS are spreading like cancer in Europe due to ISIS taking advantage of the refugee & migrant crisis.

Is this just blatant scare mongering by the right wing or is this a genuine concern? Has this risk been amplified by Merkels open door policy? A mess created by design?

Thoughts anyone?

Here you go. I take it this is what you want.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/02/europe/nato-general-migrants-terror/index.html


Pressed by reporters to back up his assertion with statistics, Breedlove said: “I can’t give you a number on the estimate of the flow.”

Looks like scaremongering as there is NO evidence to support it. The Russian angle is more likely to be true, IMHO.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76a52430-dfe1-11e5-b67f-a61732c1d025.html#axzz41jxyCNst

[Hibrandenburg]

I cant seem to copy and paste links for some reason into the thread.

NATO today have said that ISIS are spreading like cancer in Europe due to ISIS taking advantage of the refugee & migrant crisis.

Is this just blatant scare mongering by the right wing or is this a genuine concern? Has this risk been amplified by Merkels open door policy? A mess created by design?

Thoughts anyone?

Is that the same NATO that's "a disgrace to all humanity"?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is that the same NATO that's "a disgrace to all humanity"?

Aye the very same.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Here you go. I take it this is what you want.

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/02/europe/nato-general-migrants-terror/index.html



Looks like scaremongering as there is NO evidence to support it. The Russian angle is more likely to be true, IMHO.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/76a52430-dfe1-11e5-b67f-a61732c1d025.html#axzz41jxyCNst

I think the migrants & refuges are being set up big time here by Merkel!

The coming financial collapse is going to blamed on them by the media. Giving cover for the Bankers and EU Elites.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the migrants & refuges are being set up big time here by Merkel!

The coming financial collapse is going to blamed on them by the media. Giving cover for the Bankers and EU Elites.

Bet that Colonel Sanders is involved too.

[easty]

I think the migrants & refuges are being set up big time here by Merkel!

The coming financial collapse is going to blamed on them by the media. Giving cover for the Bankers and EU Elites.

The bankers don't need cover, they get helped out regardless.

[RyeSloan]

The bankers don't need cover, they get helped out regardless.

and one of the biggest culprits? The holier than thou untouchable ECB which is busy implementing negative interest rates that further crushes any semblance of normality or free market economics in the Euro zone (and by consequence the EU).

I mean Germany is now paying -0.7% on its 10 year bonds...paying governments to borrow is absolute insanity that surely is going to end in some hellish unforeseen mess.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Bet that Colonel Sanders is involved too.

I wish there was not this level of corruption and manipulation from our political leaders but there is. I think we all need to wake up to it! Just my opinion of course.

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/27/norway-eu-reality-uk-voters-seduced-by-norwegian-model


I think it is time to resurrect this

[Moulin Yarns]

I wonder if this could swing the vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35919247

[Beefster]

I wonder if this could swing the vote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/35919247

I'm pro-Europe but that sort of story highlights everything that is wrong with the debate on the EU so far. Pure scaremongering with a little caveat at the end saying that it might actually be better.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm pro-Europe but that sort of story highlights everything that is wrong with the debate on the EU so far. Pure scaremongering with a little caveat at the end saying that it might actually be better.

Takes us back to 2014 :wink:

[Beefster]

Takes us back to 2014 :wink:

Ha! I knew someone would say that!