Labour's tax policy

[lucky]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.

[marinello59]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.

The SNP are already dismissing it as a tax grab. There will be no debate, the SNP machine will simply steam roller over it.

[lord bunberry]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.
I think setting the threshold at 20k is a bit low. How much more would we have to pay?

[Sergio sledge]

I'd happily pay more than the 1p in the pound proposed by Labour to improve public services (would work out at around £20 a month for me) and I'm happy that someone has proposed a change, but I worry that the proposed rebate to anyone earning under £20,000 would be a nightmare to manage and end up costing councils more to administer than the amount of additional taxes it raises. I think that we need to do something though.

It will be interesting to see what the SNP propose when the new powers come into force with the Scotland Bill.

[RyeSloan]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.

Tax n spend, good ol' Labour?

The thing is this proposal doesn't 'raise' £480m out of thin air, it takes it out of hard working people's pockets and gives it to the Scottish Government..I'm not surprised Labour has instantly decided that as soon as Scotland gets new tax powers they would use them to raise tax on a large chunk of the workforce.

[allmodcons]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.

It's nice to see Labour come up with a policy at last!

It is, however, fraught with problems. How do you address the issue at the margins (i.e. - someone on £20001 gets zero rebate)? Who is going to administer the rebate and is it even legal to offer a rebate in this manner? How will it impact those who receive working tax credits? How can you ensure any benefit will get spent on education without ring fencing council spending? How is a blunt instrument like this anti austerity? If it's going to raise £480M, how much (precisely) is it going to be worth in net terms?

I have to say it's a real pity that the current tax varying powers are so clumsy and think, under close scrutiny, that this policy announcement by Labour will quickly unravel.

[lucky]

No. Poorer taxpayers will be the winners from today’s announcement. Labour propose, from within the revenues raised, to pay a tax rebate to all low income families paying income tax worth £100 a year. This is far in excess of the additional tax lower paid taxpayers would pay over the course a year.
Of course this is only one side of the equation. Everyone will benefit from investment in public services, especially from avoiding cuts to education which would undermine Scotland’s future prosperity.

[RyeSloan]

No. Poorer taxpayers will be the winners from today’s announcement. Labour propose, from within the revenues raised, to pay a tax rebate to all low income families paying income tax worth £100 a year. This is far in excess of the additional tax lower paid taxpayers would pay over the course a year. Of course this is only one side of the equation. Everyone will benefit from investment in public services, especially from avoiding cuts to education which would undermine Scotland’s future prosperity.

There are plenty things that could undermine Scotland's future prosperity...it's a simple and lazy argument to say that merely by taxing more and 'investing' in public spending that you ensure a countries future prosperity.

A much more sensible approach would be to look at local council funding and allow them to set local tax rates to fund their expenditure accordingly. Applying a blunt tool like a flat rise in income tax allegedly for a specific ring fenced purpose that is not even delivered by central government is disingenuous.

As ever politicians first instinct is to tax more so they can spend more, easy to see its not their money that they love to spend. Maybe one day they spend some time thinking of better more cost effective ways of doing things rather than just dreaming of how much more tax they can squeeze from their citizens.

[lucky]

The rebate will be distributed by local authorities. Ths is a progressive tax, as such if someone earning just over £20k will only pay the additional tax on the salary above £20k. As such someone on £20001 would be the additional tax based on the £1 they've earned above the threshold.

Surely safeguarding services and jobs is what we all want. The effect that the huge cuts have on jobs in supply chain is massive. The SNP told us in Mays GE that they were the party of anti austerity yet they are forcing through these cuts. What's the difference with Osbourne's cuts and Swinneys? Let's unite and do something to protect our services and help grow the economy

[CropleyWasGod]

The rebate will be distributed by local authorities. Ths is a progressive tax, as such if someone earning just over £20k will only pay the additional tax on the salary above £20k. As such someone on £20001 would be the additional tax based on the £1 they've earned above the threshold.

Surely safeguarding services and jobs is what we all want. The effect that the huge cuts have on jobs in supply chain is massive. The SNP told us in Mays GE that they were the party of anti austerity yet they are forcing through these cuts. What's the difference with Osbourne's cuts and Swinneys? Let's unite and do something to protect our services and help grow the economy

So we will have 5 rates?

0% for all up to £11,000

20% up to £20k.

21% up to the Higher Rate threshold.

40% (or 41%?) on the next band.

45% or 46% on the next.

[allmodcons]

No. Poorer taxpayers will be the winners from today’s announcement. Labour propose, from within the revenues raised, to pay a tax rebate to all low income families paying income tax worth £100 a year. This is far in excess of the additional tax lower paid taxpayers would pay over the course a year.
Of course this is only one side of the equation. Everyone will benefit from investment in public services, especially from avoiding cuts to education which would undermine Scotland’s future prosperity.

What we have from you here reads like it has been taken straight from an election leaflet!

Can you answer any of the 6 questions I asked in my original post?

[allmodcons]

The rebate will be distributed by local authorities. Ths is a progressive tax, as such if someone earning just over £20k will only pay the additional tax on the salary above £20k. As such someone on £20001 would be the additional tax based on the £1 they've earned above the threshold.

Surely safeguarding services and jobs is what we all want. The effect that the huge cuts have on jobs in supply chain is massive. The SNP told us in Mays GE that they were the party of anti austerity yet they are forcing through these cuts. What's the difference with Osbourne's cuts and Swinneys? Let's unite and do something to protect our services and help grow the economy

Sorry, I missed this post.

Are you saying Labour will create new tax bands to administer this proposal?

[lucky]

That's my understanding. Sorry if my language was/is a bit party political but it's not the easiest subject to explain in a non political way. Also I'm not a spokesperson for the party but will attempt to answer your questions later on today

[Beefster]

The rebate will be distributed by local authorities. Ths is a progressive tax, as such if someone earning just over £20k will only pay the additional tax on the salary above £20k. As such someone on £20001 would be the additional tax based on the £1 they've earned above the threshold.

Surely safeguarding services and jobs is what we all want. The effect that the huge cuts have on jobs in supply chain is massive. The SNP told us in Mays GE that they were the party of anti austerity yet they are forcing through these cuts. What's the difference with Osbourne's cuts and Swinneys? Let's unite and do something to protect our services and help grow the economy

How does raising income tax for the majority of full-time workers help grow the economy?

[southfieldhibby]

How does that £56 rebate get funded? If you earn under £20K you pay and extra £44 in taxation, but get a £100 kick back. Where does the £56 come from?

[CropleyWasGod]

How does that £56 rebate get funded? If you earn under £20K you pay and extra £44 in taxation, but get a £100 kick back. Where does the £56 come from?

Where are you getting the £44 from?

[southfieldhibby]

Where are you getting the £44 from?

Isn't that the increase in tax folk under £20k ( but above £11K) Would pay? The £100 kick back leaves a difference of £56, no?

[CropleyWasGod]

Isn't that the increase in tax folk under £20k ( but above £11K) Would pay? The £100 kick back leaves a difference of £56, no?
Don't see that.

If the 21% is applied to those on 20k and under .. and I'm not clear yet if that is the intention ...

On 20k, the additional tax is 1% on 9k. £90

On 15k, £40.

On 12k, £10

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[southfieldhibby]

Don't see that.

If the 21% is applied to those on 20k and under .. and I'm not clear yet if that is the intention ...

On 20k, the additional tax is 1% on 9k. £90

On 15k, £40.

On 12k, £10

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Point still stands though? On 15k you pay an extra £40 but get an extra £100, so what funds the £60 shortfall?

[CropleyWasGod]

Point still stands though? On 15k you pay an extra £40 but get an extra £100, so what funds the £60 shortfall?
Presumably the increased tax take from all those earning over 20k, no?

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[southfieldhibby]

Presumably the increased tax take from all those earning over 20k, no?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

So the tax increase isn't to fund services but to offer less well paid folk cash incentives?!

[lucky]

How does that £56 rebate get funded? If you earn under £20K you pay and extra £44 in taxation, but get a £100 kick back. Where does the £56 come from?

The £100 rebate comes from the £480m raised, it will cost £50m

[CropleyWasGod]

So the tax increase isn't to fund services but to offer less well paid folk cash incentives?!
That's not how I read it.

The increased tax revenue will be substantially more than the cashback. It's the excess that will fund the services.
480m according to one report I read.

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[lucky]

How does raising income tax for the majority of full-time workers help grow the economy?

It will safeguard jobs and services. Those people who's jobs are saved have money to spend in the community

[southfieldhibby]

The £100 rebate comes from the £480m raised, it will cost £50m

Has the administration of this project been costed? It won't cost nothing.

I like the idea of raising taxes, but this £100 bribe is daft.

[lucky]

It's nice to see Labour come up with a policy at last!

It is, however, fraught with problems. How do you address the issue at the margins (i.e. - someone on £20001 gets zero rebate)? Who is going to administer the rebate and is it even legal to offer a rebate in this manner? How will it impact those who receive working tax credits? How can you ensure any benefit will get spent on education without ring fencing council spending? How is a blunt instrument like this anti austerity? If it's going to raise £480M, how much (precisely) is it going to be worth in net terms?

I have to say it's a real pity that the current tax varying powers are so clumsy and think, under close scrutiny, that this policy announcement by Labour will quickly unravel.

The amount raised has to be an estimate due to fluctuation in employment. The £480m raised is to used for safeguarding services, especially Education, ring fencing can be done by working with councils. £50m to be used to give the poorest paid a rebate.

[CropleyWasGod]

Has the administration of this project been costed? It won't cost nothing.

I like the idea of raising taxes, but this £100 bribe is daft.

Politicians bribe voters all the time. This "bribe" is a tax-cut, dressed-up.

[Beefster]

It will safeguard jobs and services. Those people who's jobs are saved have money to spend in the community

Sorry but that's just a wooly soundbite. The £500m extra that Scottish Labour is proposing taxing us isn't lost to the economy just because the state doesn't have it. How many jobs would be saved?

I'll say one thing for Labour - it takes balls to come out and use "we're going to tax you all more" as an election pledge. Let's be honest though, given their electoral chances, Labour can propose whatever they want without fear that they'll actually have to implement it (like the rest of the parties not called the SNP).

[southfieldhibby]

Politicians bribe voters all the time. This "bribe" is a tax-cut, dressed-up.

I know, it's tiring stuff.

I'd vote for a party that increased taxes, delivered better services and stopped with the bull****

[lucky]

I know, it's tiring stuff.

I'd vote for a party that increased taxes, delivered better services and stopped with the bull****

This is a tax cut for the poorest but they will pay the additional tax at first then get £100 back. For 75% of others this is an increase in their tax contribution

[ronaldo7]

That's my understanding. Sorry if my language was/is a bit party political but it's not the easiest subject to explain in a non political way. Also I'm not a spokesperson for the party but will attempt to answer your questions later on today

If we're taxing 75% of the population an extra penny(your £480 million), will that amount be reduced from the block grant?

[lucky]

If we're taxing 75% of the population an extra penny(your £480 million), will that amount be reduced from the block grant?

No as it a variation in the agreed tax levels that the parliament already has
Power over. It means instead of accepting Osbroune's 10p Scottish Tax rate the Scittish parliament would set it at 11p. But it's up to the SNP whether they want extra cash to spend on their budget

[lucky]

This the amedment to the Scottish Government budget that will be debated tomorrow.

As an amendment to motion S4M-15522 in the name of John Swinney (Budget (Scotland) (No.5) Bill), insert at end “, and, in so doing, believes that the Scottish rate of income tax should be set at 11p for 2016-17, 1p higher than the UK rate set by the Chancellor of the Exchequer”.

It's looking like Labour, Lib Dems and Greens to vote for the amendment but SNP and Tories to vote against

[ronaldo7]

No as it a variation in the agreed tax levels that the parliament already has
Power over. It means instead of accepting Osbroune's 10p Scottish Tax rate the Scittish parliament would set it at 11p. But it's up to the SNP whether they want extra cash to spend on their budget

More questions than answers after reading this...https://t.co/zczwVDWNlq :aok:

[lord bunberry]

Politicians bribe voters all the time. This "bribe" is a tax-cut, dressed-up.
Less than £2 a week isn't much of a bribe, it's more a gimmick IMO.

[RyeSloan]

Less than £2 a week isn't much of a bribe, it's more a gimmick IMO.

A £50m gimmick!

[ronaldo7]

16010

If this is true, it doesn't seem very progressive to me.:confused:

[RyeSloan]

It will safeguard jobs and services. Those people who's jobs are saved have money to spend in the community

And what about the areas of the economy that suffer the £480m loss? What about those jobs and those people?

Government spending is not new money...it doesn't increase the wealth of the nation directly and therefore can't be claimed to be saving jobs or creating money for people to spend.

[lucky]

16010

If this is true, it doesn't seem very progressive to me.:confused:

And SNPs answer is to do nothing. You've claimed on here many times that the SNP were the anti austerity party and Labour as red tories. Seems that you don't believe what you preach. If the Nats vote against the amendment tomorrow along with the tories then your back to being the Tartan tories.

[ronaldo7]

And SNPs answer is to do nothing. You've claimed on here many times that the SNP were the anti austerity party and Labour as red tories. Seems that you don't believe what you preach. If the Nats vote against the amendment tomorrow along with the tories then your back to being the Tartan tories.

Can you try and stay with the penny tax increase. Is what I've posted up correct?

If so a Nurse earning £25k will be paying 5% more tax whilst someone on £60k will be paying 3.71% more.

I might have got it wrong...if so please highlight where. :aok:

[CropleyWasGod]

Can you try and stay with the penny tax increase. Is what I've posted up correct?

If so a Nurse earning £25k will be paying 5% more tax whilst someone on £60k will be paying 3.71% more.

I might have got it wrong...if so please highlight where. :aok:

Does the 40% rate not go up as well?

[ronaldo7]

Does the 40% rate not go up as well?

I don't know, thats what I was hoping Lucky could help me with.

[CropleyWasGod]

I don't know, thats what I was hoping Lucky could help me with.

Actually, I misread that spreadsheet. It assumes that it does.

[ronaldo7]

Actually, I misread that spreadsheet. It assumes that it does.

:wink: So is it correct?

[Onceinawhile]

Raising the tax rate is actually the opposite of progressive as 1% is a 5% hike for those paying 20% and only 2.2% for those paying 45%.

If it was me, I'd wait until the Scottish parliament has the ability to vary rates properly (e.g. put one band up more than the other) or until holyrood can change rates.

As much as I don't agree with this labour policy, I'm glad they're at least trying to get something out there. Policy statements from them, the libs and the cons have been almost non existent.

[One Day Soon]

The SNP are already dismissing it as a tax grab. There will be no debate, the SNP machine will simply steam roller over it.

I'm confused.

Are we a) rookit and in desperate need of more money because Tory austerity is damaging and was rejected by Scottish voters when we elected 50 odd SNP MPs or b) och it's ok, we're not really wanting/needing to raise taxes to protect important services in Scotland because it's the wrong kind of extra money?

Wasn't raising taxes and NOT cutting services exactly the anti-austerity line the SNP took in the election to attack the Tories? In fact wasn't part of Sturgeon's pitch in the election that she would keep Miliband's Labour away from austerity in coalition?

Does it it just depend what line Sturgeon and Swinney want to spin to us on any given day/hour/minute?

I have to hand it to Dugdale, with little to lose it shows some balls and exposes the cheap talk of others. And it is quite entertaining to see SNP apparatchiks twisting and turning to suggest black is white and white is black. Puts me exactly in mind of the New Labour spinners trying to defend their government after years in office back in the day.

At least it makes politics a bit more interesting. Next up, the weird political alliances on the Scottish anti-EU campaign.....

[steakbake]

I think the SNP should call the bluff. Labour can promise whatever they like - they have no chance of winning in May and could promise the moon on a stick and still not feel even threatened to have to deliver on it. As a tactic, it's a pretty good one and if the SNP don't respond in some way, I'm sure it'll claw some people to the Labour camp. However, I think if the roles were reversed and Labour had a thumping lead in the polls, there's no way they'd be offering this. Takes a brave party to go into an election, leading in the polls and promising a tax increase. As a Scandinavian social democrat, I'm all for it. Funnily enough, I think if the SNP did include it, it's likely to harm Labour the most as the natural alternative is the low-tax Tories. They're pretty much neck and neck as it is.

[One Day Soon]

I think the SNP should call the bluff. Labour can promise whatever they like - they have no chance of winning in May and could promise the moon on a stick and still not feel even threatened to have to deliver on it. As a tactic, it's a pretty good one and if the SNP don't respond in some way, I'm sure it'll claw some people to the Labour camp. However, I think if the roles were reversed and Labour had a thumping lead in the polls, there's no way they'd be offering this. Takes a brave party to go into an election, leading in the polls and promising a tax increase. As a Scandinavian social democrat, I'm all for it but I can't see it happening.

The SNP could go into this election committed to twice this level of tax increase and still absolutely walk it. I agree with you, they should call the bluff. More importantly, you're Scandinavian?

[lucky]

Does the 40% rate not go up as well?

Yes

[lucky]

Can you try and stay with the penny tax increase. Is what I've posted up correct?

If so a Nurse earning £25k will be paying 5% more tax whilst someone on £60k will be paying 3.71% more.

I might have got it wrong...if so please highlight where. :aok:

I answered this earlier, the proposal is to increase the tax rates by a penny. So the 40% moves to 41%. So yes it's progressive but it's a proposal it's up to the SNP whether they use the parliaments powers or leave the tax rate set by Westminster

[Glory Lurker]

This is a great thread. Thoroughly enjoying everyone's views.

[ronaldo7]

I answered this earlier, the proposal is to increase the tax rates by a penny. So the 40% moves to 41%. So yes it's progressive but it's a proposal it's up to the SNP whether they use the parliaments powers or leave the tax rate set by Westminster

Thanks for that.

I can't see the SNP picking this one up and running with it to be honest. I'm all for trying to support services however I don't think taxing nurses more than MSPs is the way to go.

I'd rather wait and see what actual powers we get that can make a difference on the banding.

https://t.co/zUeeJLb6jg This is the fishul SNP response.

[lucky]

Thanks for that.

I can't see the SNP picking this one up and running with it to be honest. I'm all for trying to support services however I don't think taxing nurses more than MSPs is the way to go.

I'd rather wait and see what actual powers we get that can make a difference on the banding.



https://t.co/zUeeJLb6jg This is the fishul SNP response.

It's about protecting jobs and services, but I suspect this was a political move by Labour but I am disappointed that the SNP did not embrace the opportunity. If Westminister acted how Swinney acted we would all be screaming about our local services

[ronaldo7]

It's about protecting jobs and services, but I suspect this was a political move by Labour but I am disappointed that the SNP did not embrace the opportunity. If Westminister acted how Swinney acted we would all be screaming about our local services

Westminster have been acting, just in case you missed it, our budget has been slashed...again. We're having to work around Tory cuts, and doing not too bad.

This Better together tax is another trap laid by the Tories and walked into by Labour. Thank goodness the SNP are in office.

The wee ginger dug sums it all up.

https://t.co/AKtxve0DjY

[One Day Soon]

It's about protecting jobs and services, but I suspect this was a political move by Labour but I am disappointed that the SNP did not embrace the opportunity. If Westminister acted how Swinney acted we would all be screaming about our local services


So the debate has taken place and Sturgeon won't raise tax by a penny to protect public services. The SNP Scottish lion has miaowed.

In other news Councils are having to make cuts because they don't have enough money.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[marinello59]

Westminster have been acting, just in case you missed it, our budget has been slashed...again. We're having to work around Tory cuts, and doing not too bad.

This Better together tax is another trap laid by the Tories and walked into by Labour. Thank goodness the SNP are in office.

The wee ginger dug sums it all up.

https://t.co/AKtxve0DjY

The Scottish Tory Party didn't fall in to the trap either and are proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

The Scottish Tory Party didn't fall in to the trap either and are proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with the SNP. :greengrin

They'll stand alongside anyone though.:wink:

[marinello59]

They'll stand alongside anyone though.:wink:

Aye. The Tory chappy did seem rather pleased. I don't think he could believe that any other party in Scotland would share their views on income tax. Bless him, he will be suggesting they share a tartan with the SNP next. :greengrin

[Northernhibee]

Helping the poorest in society and moving away from austerity politics. Basically what the SNP claim to do but don't.

[GlesgaeHibby]

And SNPs answer is to do nothing. You've claimed on here many times that the SNP were the anti austerity party and Labour as red tories. Seems that you don't believe what you preach. If the Nats vote against the amendment tomorrow along with the tories then your back to being the Tartan tories.

Labour had the chance to do something, by choosing not to abstain on vote after vote in the commons. Labour chose to vote with the Tories for a further £30bn worth of cuts in January last year. Instead of having the balls to stand up to the Tories, and actually be an opposition, it's now for the tax payer to relieve some of the pressure on the public purse by paying more tax? :aok:

It's like Turkeys voting for Christmas. Standing together with the Tories to vote for £30bn worth of cuts, and then planning to hike taxes when they realise the cuts they voted for are having a negative impact on public services. Frightening logic.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Helping the poorest in society and moving away from austerity politics. Basically what the SNP claim to do but don't.

How exactly do you move away from austerity politics when there is a Westminster govt that is all for it, and their austerity policies result in cuts to the Scottish budget?

[One Day Soon]

How exactly do you move away from austerity politics when there is a Westminster govt that is all for it, and their austerity policies result in cuts to the Scottish budget?

By exercising the powers you actually have in the Scottish Parliament to raise tax and protect public services from cuts?

Let's freeze Council Tax instead and force Councils to make cuts even though local taxpayers are willing to pay a little extra to protect key services that people depend upon.

The only thing more two faced would be to argue for more powers from Westminster so the Scottish Government can make its own choices while at the same time stopping Scottish Councils and their local communities from making their own choices by centralising control in the Scottish Government. Oh, wait.....

[RyeSloan]

By exercising the powers you actually have in the Scottish Parliament to raise tax and protect public services from cuts? Let's freeze Council Tax instead and force Councils to make cuts even though local taxpayers are willing to pay a little extra to protect key services that people depend upon. The only thing more two faced would be to argue for more powers from Westminster so the Scottish Government can make its own choices while at the same time stopping Scottish Councils and their local communities from making their own choices by centralising control in the Scottish Government. Oh, wait.....

As you will know I'm dead against any tax rise no matter an income tax rise but your point is a valid one I think.

The SNP have played the Tory austerity card for all its worth but can't be honest and say that to end any austerity you have to raise taxes.

So what I think there position is now is that they won't raise tax in Scotland at a local or income tax level so they can't increase spending but think the Funding should come from the UK government, via increased borrowing I assume.

Also they have spent years and years basically saying they would do it all different and make Scotland so much better than it already is if only they had the powers to do so...yet they are handed significant power to allow them to do something different yet decide that actually it's all right as it is.

Even the Tories and the greens have came up with some interesting alternatives...the merits of which can be dented of course but the only party not to come forward with alternative proposals seems to be the party that has complained the loudest about the status quo and suggested the strongest that if they could they would. Yes it appears they can't and won't.

[Dashing Bob S]

Labour have no chance of getting elected in Scotland. If they did -even an outside one- they wouldn't be advocating anything like this. It's fantasy politics designed to posture them some radical credentials which they haven't had for decades in Scotland and will never have again.

[marinello59]

Labour have no chance of getting elected in Scotland. If they did -even an outside one- they wouldn't be advocating anything like this. It's fantasy politics designed to posture them some radical credentials which they haven't had for decades in Scotland and will never have again.

They used to say that the SNP had no chance of getting elected in Scotland and all this talk of Independence was fantasy politics.
I agree though that if the Labour Party had a genuine chance of winning they would not be mentioning tax rises. The SNP could however propose to raise tax and still win at a canter. They have the power to do things differently up here of they so choose. Labour have, for the first time in ages, managed to land a blow on the Scottish Government. Just a wee slap rather than a hefty thump but it's more than they have done in a long time. The election could be a lot more fun than we thought.

[lucky]

Labour had the chance to do something, by choosing not to abstain on vote after vote in the commons. Labour chose to vote with the Tories for a further £30bn worth of cuts in January last year. Instead of having the balls to stand up to the Tories, and actually be an opposition, it's now for the tax payer to relieve some of the pressure on the public purse by paying more tax? :aok:

It's like Turkeys voting for Christmas. Standing together with the Tories to vote for £30bn worth of cuts, and then planning to hike taxes when they realise the cuts they voted for are having a negative impact on public services. Frightening logic.

Your wrong Labour did not vote for the cuts.

But the reality the SNP chose yesterday to implement cut on the Scottish people rather than raise tax. In anyone's book that is not anti austerity or left leaning. There was a reason why Murdo Fraser said the SNP decision warmed his Tory heart.

[ronaldo7]

Your wrong Labour did not vote for the cuts.

But the reality the SNP chose yesterday to implement cut on the Scottish people rather than raise tax. In anyone's book that is not anti austerity or left leaning. There was a reason why Murdo Fraser said the SNP decision warmed his Tory heart.

Most of them abstained just like they did on the Scotland bill yesterday where the SNP wanted SMITH to be Honoured. Most people's eyes are open regarding what Labour are doing, some are still blinkered.

Try telling the 51,500 people who will get lifted onto the living wage by the SNP that they're just bad bad bad.

I also believe the £100 rebate is taxable. It seems the back of a fag packet economics continue on from the APD being used up to 3 times.

Labour are all over the place, and it shows. You'll just have to wait and see what the SNP come up with in the next couple of months, as conference sits in a wee while.

[lucky]

Most of them abstained just like they did on the Scotland bill yesterday where the SNP wanted SMITH to be Honoured. Most people's eyes are open regarding what Labour are doing, some are still blinkered.

Try telling the 51,500 people who will get lifted onto the living wage by the SNP that they're just bad bad bad.

I also believe the £100 rebate is taxable. It seems the back of a fag packet economics continue on from the APD being used up to 3 times.

Labour are all over the place, and it shows. You'll just have to wait and see what the SNP come up with in the next couple of months, as conference sits in a wee while.

As usual your blinkered. The reality is people are going to lose their jobs. This tax rise would have safeguarded people's jobs. Those facing redundancy will not give a toss.

As for your conference setting policy, don't make me laugh, NS has the right to decide what goes in the manifesto and over rule conference.

[marinello59]

Most of them abstained just like they did on the Scotland bill yesterday where the SNP wanted SMITH to be Honoured. Most people's eyes are open regarding what Labour are doing, some are still blinkered.

Try telling the 51,500 people who will get lifted onto the living wage by the SNP that they're just bad bad bad.

I also believe the £100 rebate is taxable. It seems the back of a fag packet economics continue on from the APD being used up to 3 times.

Labour are all over the place, and it shows. You'll just have to wait and see what the SNP come up with in the next couple of months, as conference sits in a wee while.


As usual your blinkered. The reality is people are going to lose their jobs. This tax rise would have safeguarded people's jobs. Those facing redundancy will not give a toss.

As for your conference setting policy, don't make me laugh, NS has the right to decide what goes in the manifesto and over rule conference.

They say opposites attract.:greengrin

[allmodcons]

By exercising the powers you actually have in the Scottish Parliament to raise tax and protect public services from cuts?

Let's freeze Council Tax instead and force Councils to make cuts even though local taxpayers are willing to pay a little extra to protect key services that people depend upon.

The only thing more two faced would be to argue for more powers from Westminster so the Scottish Government can make its own choices while at the same time stopping Scottish Councils and their local communities from making their own choices by centralising control in the Scottish Government. Oh, wait.....


For what it's worth, I think raising tax by a penny is a decent proposal but, sadly, do not think the current tax varying powers lend themselves to making the policy workable. The rebate doesn't sound too clever - How many people will complete the paperwork? If someone pays an extra £80 to £90 tax are they really going to then go through the process of reclaiming £100?

It appears to be a bit of blunt instrument and without ring fencing the tax take I can't see how the SG will be able to control how councils spend the proceeds.




As usual your blinkered. The reality is people are going to lose their jobs. This tax rise would have safeguarded people's jobs. Those facing redundancy will not give a toss.

As for your conference setting policy, don't make me laugh, NS has the right to decide what goes in the manifesto and over rule conference.


Sorry Lucky, but for you to bemoan someone for being politically blinkered just made me laugh out loud.

[AndyM_1875]

Helping the poorest in society and moving away from austerity politics. Basically what the SNP claim to do but don't.

Well said. As a former SNP supporter observing SNP types backing up Tory economics yesterday made my stomach churn.

The idea by Labour of a 1p tax raise is an interesting proposal by Kezia Dugdale but in reality it's dead in the water as the party has no chance of being elected either at Holyrood or at Westminster under the hapless Corbyn. If it serves any purpose it may wake a few folk up to how badly Council Services are about to be slashed by Swinney's budget. But if you vote SNP or Tory (and that's what a majority of people voted for in 2011 and are likely to vote for again in May), you have absolutely no right to complain as your Council slashes jobs and services.

[GlesgaeHibby]

By exercising the powers you actually have in the Scottish Parliament to raise tax and protect public services from cuts?

Let's freeze Council Tax instead and force Councils to make cuts even though local taxpayers are willing to pay a little extra to protect key services that people depend upon.

The only thing more two faced would be to argue for more powers from Westminster so the Scottish Government can make its own choices while at the same time stopping Scottish Councils and their local communities from making their own choices by centralising control in the Scottish Government. Oh, wait.....

The council tax freeze has helped put money back in taxpayers pockets, which can then be spent, in turn boosting the economy. Local authority budgets haven't been cut as a result of the council tax freeze, as they are compensated by the Scottish Government. Indeed, they've received more from the government than they would had council tax increased http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34326185

[RyeSloan]

The council tax freeze has helped put money back in taxpayers pockets, which can then be spent, in turn boosting the economy. Local authority budgets haven't been cut as a result of the council tax freeze, as they are compensated by the Scottish Government. Indeed, they've received more from the government than they would had council tax increased http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-34326185

I've never quite worked out this compensation thing...I assume it's taken from central budgets and therefore the impact is felt elsewhere, it's always presented as 'free money' which of course it's not.

I think the SNP have probably pushed this one just a bit too far, esp. with the extra 'do it or else' strings attached.

I don't think it would have been impossible to contemplate a measured increase in Council Tax (say 2% or whatever) as being a sensible way to mitigate some of the drop in central funding...I wouldn't have been happy but I think even I would have understood that after 9 years there might have been a case for it!

The truth is though that the local government funding model has been broken for a long time and the SNP has done booger all to fix it. I see today the finally Edinburgh may be able to raise a tourist tax later this year (through a deal with the UK government)...it's initiatives like that which will allow local government to reduce its dependency on central government funding. But thinking about it I'm pretty certain that is actually the last thing the SNP want, they like having the big stick with which to beat the councils into line with.

[GlesgaeHibby]

Your wrong Labour did not vote for the cuts.

But the reality the SNP chose yesterday to implement cut on the Scottish people rather than raise tax. In anyone's book that is not anti austerity or left leaning. There was a reason why Murdo Fraser said the SNP decision warmed his Tory heart.

No I'm not, they did. Was passed by 515 votes to 18.

[ronaldo7]

As usual your blinkered. The reality is people are going to lose their jobs. This tax rise would have safeguarded people's jobs. Those facing redundancy will not give a toss.

As for your conference setting policy, don't make me laugh, NS has the right to decide what goes in the manifesto and over rule conference.

I used to wear to same blinkers as you:wink: I decided to give them up some time ago as the party had merged with the Tories.

From the party who were in power in Scotland for nigh on 70 years they've not done much. They were the party who brought the least to the table when it came to Smith, so much for standing up for workers eh.

You were all chums when you were returning Scotland's money to the exchequer, all £1.5 Billion of it. Oh look, the SNP have built a bridge over the Forth for as much.

They decided not to bother with devolving Trade Union laws, probably because London said No. Then they ask the Scottish Gov to fight for them. Brass neck.

They decided not to bother voting last night to ensuring that the Tories would be held to account on Smith and the No detriment clause. They abstained again.

The 1p tax increase in Income tax has unravelled since Kezia started speaking. If that's the best you've got then you better start looking over your shoulders because the Tories are pushing you hard.

It's going to be a long 4 months if your policy department doesn't get it's act in order and stop listening to London.

[allmodcons]

By exercising the powers you actually have in the Scottish Parliament to raise tax and protect public services from cuts?

Let's freeze Council Tax instead and force Councils to make cuts even though local taxpayers are willing to pay a little extra to protect key services that people depend upon.

The only thing more two faced would be to argue for more powers from Westminster so the Scottish Government can make its own choices while at the same time stopping Scottish Councils and their local communities from making their own choices by centralising control in the Scottish Government. Oh, wait.....

Where's your proof of this ODS?

Highland Council surveyed local taxpayers about increasing Council Tax and received an overwhelming no to the prospect of a 5% increase.

The Independent (Tory) oaf that heads up Moray Council decided in his wisdom not to undertake a survey of local taxpayers before proposing a headline grabbing 18% increase in Council Tax and because of a public outcry has now back tracked stating that he had not fully understood the consequences of what he was proposing. He of course is blaming the SNP Government, when most up here know fine well he simply didn't do the Maths!

[Beefster]

No I'm not, they did. Was passed by 515 votes to 18.

In order to stop you two going back and forward a few more times, Labour abstained. Technically, Lucky is correct but the roundabout point that you're trying to make about Labour being complicit by not opposing them is probably true too.

By the same token, for all the moaning about the cuts, the SNP have done hee-haw to mitigate them, despite having at least a couple of options.

[ronaldo7]

In order to stop you two going back and forward a few more times, Labour abstained. Technically, Lucky is correct but the roundabout point that you're trying to make about Labour being complicit by not opposing them is probably true too.

By the same token, for all the moaning about the cuts, the SNP have done hee-haw to mitigate them, despite having at least a couple of options.


I wouldn't call £100Million to mitigate the Tories Bedroom tax, hee haw. That might be spare change for some others though.

[GlesgaeHibby]

I've never quite worked out this compensation thing...I assume it's taken from central budgets and therefore the impact is felt elsewhere, it's always presented as 'free money' which of course it's not.

I think the SNP have probably pushed this one just a bit too far, esp. with the extra 'do it or else' strings attached.

I don't think it would have been impossible to contemplate a measured increase in Council Tax (say 2% or whatever) as being a sensible way to mitigate some of the drop in central funding...I wouldn't have been happy but I think even I would have understood that after 9 years there might have been a case for it!

The truth is though that the local government funding model has been broken for a long time and the SNP has done booger all to fix it. I see today the finally Edinburgh may be able to raise a tourist tax later this year (through a deal with the UK government)...it's initiatives like that which will allow local government to reduce its dependency on central government funding. But thinking about it I'm pretty certain that is actually the last thing the SNP want, they like having the big stick with which to beat the councils into line with.

:agree: Totally agree. As a minority govt they were determined to push for a local income tax, not heard it or alternative proposals mentioned for a while.

[Beefster]

I wouldn't call £100Million to mitigate the Tories Bedroom tax, hee haw. That might be spare change for some others though.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about disagreements over benefits policy. The SNP haven't stopped banging on about the cuts imposed on them by the Tories. They've taken none of the options open to them to mitigate those cuts.

[ronaldo7]

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about disagreements over benefits policy. The SNP haven't stopped banging on about the cuts imposed on them by the Tories. They've taken none of the options open to them to mitigate those cuts.

Don't think I do. A cut is a cut is a cut. The SNP Government have mitigated cuts to many families throughout Scotland regarding the Bedroom tax, people who use their spare room for equipment for their disabilities. Had they been living in England they'd have lost money. Cash saved by people due to the SNP.

Over the lifetime of the Uk Parlaiment we'll have had our budget cut by £4Billion, therefor I think the SNP have every right to "Bang on" about it.

[lucky]

The SNP were forced into taking action on the bedroom tax by Labour. Ron you can spin this all you want but Swinney chose not to increase tax to migrate the cuts. There is no getting away from it.

[ronaldo7]

The SNP were forced into taking action on the bedroom tax by Labour. Ron you can spin this all you want but Swinney chose not to increase tax to migrate the cuts. There is no getting away from it.


We'll have to agree to disagree bud. Good Luck(y) trying to persuade those on the doors of your policy.:greengrin We've already been asking on the doors about your policy, and as this is a family board, I'll not post them up here.:wink:

I can't believe your lot actually came up with a policy saying everyone would earning under £20k would get £100 but didn't tell them it would be taxed. Then again, fag packets and Labour these days.

If you want a break down of your policy...here you go. Enjoy. https://t.co/5s4evxWsPh

I'd suggest you'd be better out on the doorsteps mate, as it seems the Tories are passing you in the polls as we type.

[One Day Soon]

It is hilarious seeing SNP members slavishly cutting and pasting attack and defence lines from the SNP central machine script whenever they're on the back foot on an issue. Regardless of whether they're right or wrong the line is - they're always right.

It is exactly like listening to the dominant New Labour machine and its apologists in their heyday.

I suppose that isn't surprising. A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?

Are we really amazed the SNP haven't the balls for a tiny tax increase to protect Scottish public services when so much of their money comes from very rich people who are a) allergic to any kind of tax increase and b) the least dependent upon those services because their wealth insulates them? And who does this remind us of?

[AndyM_1875]

It is hilarious seeing SNP members slavishly cutting and pasting attack and defence lines from the SNP central machine script whenever they're on the back foot on an issue. Regardless of whether they're right or wrong the line is - they're always right.

It is exactly like listening to the dominant New Labour machine and its apologists in their heyday.

I suppose that isn't surprising. A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?

Are we really amazed the SNP haven't the balls for a tiny tax increase to protect Scottish public services when so much of their money comes from very rich people who are a) allergic to any kind of tax increase and b) the least dependent upon those services because their wealth insulates them? And who does this remind us of?


That is it in a nutshell.
I'd only add a complete failure from both party and support to accept the most basic level of scrutiny and a reactive response which invariably resorts to clichés like "red tory" and feeble soundbytes like "stop talking Scotland down".

[bawheid]

I posted this on another thread but might as well stick it on this one too because I don't think I had an answer.

I wonder if all of this political bickering is missing a wider point. In 2014 at least 45% of the population were convinced that Scotland should become an independent country. Others probably agreed with the case but were put off by worries over currency, pensions, etc.

Once you've made that fundamental decision in your own mind it's very difficult to go back from that. Scotland should be an independent country.

The fact that the SNP are the only realistic vehicle for reaching that position is probably why they retain such support. Scottish Labour continue to poll badly and proposing to raise taxes across the board isn't likely to change that. However, the fundamental issue is that at least 45% of the electorate believe in a way of government that Labour can't put on the table.

[allmodcons]

It is hilarious seeing SNP members slavishly cutting and pasting attack and defence lines from the SNP central machine script whenever they're on the back foot on an issue. Regardless of whether they're right or wrong the line is - they're always right.

It is exactly like listening to the dominant New Labour machine and its apologists in their heyday.

I suppose that isn't surprising. A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?

Are we really amazed the SNP haven't the balls for a tiny tax increase to protect Scottish public services when so much of their money comes from very rich people who are a) allergic to any kind of tax increase and b) the least dependent upon those services because their wealth insulates them? And who does this remind us of?

Your view of SNP does not appear to resonate with the wider electorate. Are they so blind that they can't see what you see? Have the SNP Government done anything you support or has it all been bad?

I said earlier in the thread that the principle of increasing tax by a penny is a decent proposal but reiterate that it is not workable within the constraints of the powers available to the SG. The 'rebate' is a joke. The Labour Party appear to have forgotten that any rebate would be taxable, they forgot to factor in pensioners who pay tax and then guess at the cost of administration to be about £1M.

Why would the SNP want to adopt a poorly thought out policy by a Labour Party that knows full well it has nothing to lose as they approach the Scottish Election.

These are desperate times for the Labour Party and desperate times = desperate policies.

[JeMeSouviens]

I think this is a politically desperate and stupid move. Labour has no chance in May so seeks to claw back a few votes from the SNP on a policy it will never have to implement.

The policy is not even close to credible and risks alienating the part of the Unionist core vote that saw Labour as its tactical home.

Result: I think they might actually finish 3rd. :idiot:

[lord bunberry]

Labour are starting to remind me of the Liberal Democrats before they were part of the coalition. They come up with ideas that they know will go down well with some, but if in power they would never implement. Labour have no chance of winning the election and are now reduced to fantasy politics. The simple fact is no one is listening anymore.

[AndyM_1875]

Labour are starting to remind me of the Liberal Democrats before they were part of the coalition. They come up with ideas that they know will go down well with some, but if in power they would never implement. Labour have no chance of winning the election and are now reduced to fantasy politics. The simple fact is no one is listening anymore.

Of course Labour are desperate. That goes without saying. However that doesn't get the SNP off the hook of scrutiny and nor does it make OneDaySoon any less correct when he says

"A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?
"
Because those of us in our 40s have heard this song before when it was called New Labour.

[JeMeSouviens]

Of course Labour are desperate. That goes without saying. However that doesn't get the SNP off the hook of scrutiny and nor does it make OneDaySoon any less correct when he says

"A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?
"
Because those of us in our 40s have heard this song before when it was called New Labour.

Much of New Labour's trouble was that it *didn't* have a dominant leader. It had 2 and they each led their camps into ruthless, often bloody, civil war.

[AndyM_1875]

Much of New Labour's trouble was that it *didn't* have a dominant leader. It had 2 and they each led their camps into ruthless, often bloody, civil war.

I'd argue it did very much have a dominant leader.
Ian Hislop remarked jokingly about Britain in 2003 "We don't have politics, we have Tony Blair."
That was nearer the mark than he knew in my opinion.
Most of Brown's plotting was an absolute waste of time.

[allmodcons]

It is hilarious seeing SNP members slavishly cutting and pasting attack and defence lines from the SNP central machine script whenever they're on the back foot on an issue. Regardless of whether they're right or wrong the line is - they're always right.

It is exactly like listening to the dominant New Labour machine and its apologists in their heyday.

I suppose that isn't surprising. A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?

Are we really amazed the SNP haven't the balls for a tiny tax increase to protect Scottish public services when so much of their money comes from very rich people who are a) allergic to any kind of tax increase and b) the least dependent upon those services because their wealth insulates them? And who does this remind us of?

A completely dominant leader? As JMS correctly states this is not something New Labour could boast with Blair and Brown – 2 men with huge egos nipping at each other all day long does make for good Government.

A centralised undemocratic party? Not been my experience when attending branch meetings and is not replicated by debates at conference, which I hasten to add, I never attend.

Massive millionaire backing? A lucky couple who, previous to their good fortune, were both long standing SNP members.

Complete obsession with message/spin/media control? Will agree the SNP think message is important. This has been a serious failing of the Labour Party UK wide. Spin, no better or worse than any other political party. Media control – WTF.

Devotion to focus groups and opinion polls? A Government trying to keep abreast of public opinion that will never do!

Slavishly obedient backbenchers? 3 MSP’s have left the party in the current term of the Scottish Parliament due to the NATO debate in 2014. Slavish obedience, I think not.

Jumping on any passing populist bandwagon? Can you provide policy examples or changes to policy that have occurred by the SNP jumping on a populist bandwagon? Please don’t say the removal of bridge tolls?

A series of spectacular policy failures? Thankfully you’ve given some examples here. As you well know though the SNP minority Government was defeated in 2009 when trying to introduce LIT. Iain Gray the then Labour Leader said at the time “This is the day that Alex Salmond's credibility died". What followed was the Council Tax Freeze! Falling literacy and numeracy attainment is debateable and I’ll grant you that the SNP have failed to deliver on their 2007 election pledge around class sizes.

A totally inept opposition? Correct, but you can hardly blame the SNP for that!

[ronaldo7]

I find it rather odd that when Labour finally get round to setting a policy, the SNP are somehow not allowed to scrutinise it, and when they find flaws, they're somehow supposed to keep schtum.

Are we to take everything Labour say as Gospel, it seems some want it that way.

[lord bunberry]

Of course Labour are desperate. That goes without saying. However that doesn't get the SNP off the hook of scrutiny and nor does it make OneDaySoon any less correct when he says

"A completely dominant leader, a centralised undemocratic party, massive amounts of millionaire backing, complete obsession with message/spin/media control, devotion to focus groups and opinion polls, slavishly obedient backbenchers, jumping on any passing populist bandwagon and a series of spectacular policy failures survived only because of a totally inept opposition (eg Local Income Tax abandonment, falling literacy and numeracy attainment, failure to deliver election pledge on reduced class sizes). Who does all this remind us of?
"
Because those of us in our 40s have heard this song before when it was called New Labour.
The SNP absolutely should be subject to scrutiny, but the long road back for labour won't be made any shorter by perusing third party politics.

[Hibrandenburg]

I find it rather odd that when Labour finally get round to setting a policy, the SNP are somehow not allowed to scrutinise it, and when they find flaws, they're somehow supposed to keep schtum.

Are we to take everything Labour say as Gospel, it seems some want it that way.

That's how it was in the past, you were born into either labour or the tories. That's labour's main problem in Scotland, they still think party loyalty will see them through. Someone earlier made a good point of the 45% + who won't vote for labour because they can't/won't put that on the table which is most dear to them.

[lucky]

We'll have to agree to disagree bud. Good Luck(y) trying to persuade those on the doors of your policy.:greengrin We've already been asking on the doors about your policy, and as this is a family board, I'll not post them up here.:wink:

I can't believe your lot actually came up with a policy saying everyone would earning under £20k would get £100 but didn't tell them it would be taxed. Then again, fag packets and Labour these days.

If you want a break down of your policy...here you go. Enjoy. https://t.co/5s4evxWsPh

I'd suggest you'd be better out on the doorsteps mate, as it seems the Tories are passing you in the polls as we type.

I've knocked on doors in winning and losing elections and I can tell you that whilst Labour are down just now I can see so many similarities in the attitude of the SNP leadership as I saw and fought against in Labour. Enjoy your victories just now but things change.

[allmodcons]

I've knocked on doors in winning and losing elections and I can tell you that whilst Labour are down just now I can see so many similarities in the attitude of the SNP leadership as I saw and fought against in Labour. Enjoy your victories just now but things change.

Can I ask why you knocked doors for New Labour when you were "fighting against" them?

[The Harp Awakes]

Well said. As a former SNP supporter observing SNP types backing up Tory economics yesterday made my stomach churn.

The idea by Labour of a 1p tax raise is an interesting proposal by Kezia Dugdale but in reality it's dead in the water as the party has no chance of being elected either at Holyrood or at Westminster under the hapless Corbyn. If it serves any purpose it may wake a few folk up to how badly Council Services are about to be slashed by Swinney's budget. But if you vote SNP or Tory (and that's what a majority of people voted for in 2011 and are likely to vote for again in May), you have absolutely no right to complain as your Council slashes jobs and services.

As a former Labour voter, my stomach churned when the Labour Party stood stand by side by side with the Tories and big business in rubbishing Scotland during the 2014 referendum campaign. They are the last party I'd vote for now and I suspect a large section of the Scottish electorate feel similarly, given the erosion of their support since the referendum.

[lucky]

Can I ask why you knocked doors for New Labour when you were "fighting against" them?

As a party member I fought to try change policies I did not like or believe in. New Labour held power and a lot bought into it. I also had some good local councillors, excellent MPs (not all of them) and MSPs who were worth campaigning for.

The SNP are acting like New Labour, not one MSP or MP has broke the party whip on any subject bar NATO. Total control from the leadership. Come some of them must have their own opinions

[lucky]

I don't normally post links on here as i think we should all debate our points ourselves but this article in the Scotsman (whilst pro Labour) does provide independent explaination of Labour's tax plan

http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-labour-income-tax-row-offers-voters-a-real-choice-1-4022720

[Beefster]

Can I ask why you knocked doors for New Labour when you were "fighting against" them?

It might be a surprise to some folk but there are always folk who disagree with the leadership but remain in a political party. Ever heard a politician talk about 'broad churches'? Again, it might be a surprise to some but there are SNP members who disagree with the party on just about everything except for independence.

[AndyM_1875]

As a former Labour voter, my stomach churned when the Labour Party stood stand by side by side with the Tories and big business in rubbishing Scotland during the 2014 referendum campaign. They are the last party I'd vote for now and I suspect a large section of the Scottish electorate feel similarly, given the erosion of their support since the referendum.

Labour admit they made a mistake standing with the other parties. But they wee hardly likely to go campaign for Yes Scotland were they, since they've been the peoples party of the UK for 100 years.

I'm a former supporter & long time voter of the SNP but the scales fell from my eyes with the new Labour like control of the party plus done of the "blood & soil" types and then there's the fact that the message for Indy was based on an fantasy economics. With the oil price as it is just now the whole game is up the spout.

[RyeSloan]

I don't normally post links on here as i think we should all debate our points ourselves but this article in the Scotsman (whilst pro Labour) does provide independent explaination of Labour's tax plan http://www.scotsman.com/news/brian-wilson-labour-income-tax-row-offers-voters-a-real-choice-1-4022720

An interesting read. What bothers me though is the simple assumption that it's only 1p...what about next year when councils coming running again saying they need more cash, will the answer be 'just another 1p'?

I'm also confused by some of his examples...someone on £50k for example would take home nothing like over £40k in the existing tax framework, it would be more like £36k so I think he's forgotten to take off NI. So someone earning £50k is already paying almost 30% tax on their income. You could of course add in employers NI to that as while the worker never sees that money it is still a tax on their employment, in this case that would be almost £6k so the take home of c£36 is now a net from £56k...a tax rate of almost 35% and a tax contribution of the best part of £20k to achieve a take home of £36k.

Oh but it doesn't stop there...taking a conservative estimate that 50% of the income is spent on VATable goods and services you can estimate that the person on 50k will pay another £3.6k in tax so their £36k really only buys £32.5k of goods and services....so taking £32.5k from the £56k means they pay roughly 42% tax on their income/employment. And that's before any other tax like council tax etc.

So this concept of 'Ach it's only another 1p' what's the problem winds me up a touch...politicians need to stop seeing the population as some sort of never ending cash cow which should just be milked for more every time they feel they don't have enough cash to spend on all the things they want to spend it on. I appreciate services need to be paid for and that will mean taxation (and I assure you I do my bit on that front) but let's not forget the people that are providing that taxation in the argument rather than always focussing on those that consume the services, there needs to be a balance in the discussions and it's one I rarely see.

[Colr]

Scottish Labour has today tabled an amendment to the SNP budget which would increase income tax for everyone earning over £20k per year, those earning less would get a £100 rebate. This proposal would raise £480m and would be spent on protecting Scotland's public services mainly Education. The question is will the SNP support it? After all they claimed to be anti austerity ? Could be an interesting debate tomorrow.

Tax and spend. Same old, same old. Are the Tories growing a spine and offering a tax cut?

[lucky]

I don't see it as a problem to tax & spend. If we want services they must be paid for. I also do see the issue of the higher paid paying more. Under these proposals I'd be contributing considerably more but personally I but don't use a lot of the services under threat from Swinneys cuts but it's about the society we want to live in.

[ronaldo7]

I don't see it as a problem to tax & spend. If we want services they must be paid for. I also do see the issue of the higher paid paying more. Under these proposals I'd be contributing considerably more but personally I but don't use a lot of the services under threat from Swinneys cuts but it's about the society we want to live in.

Better Together as you stand by the Tories cuts. Some see through your mirrors. It's about a society we want to live in right enough. :wink:

[Beefster]

Better Together as you stand by the Tories cuts.

I'm hoping that you only spout this type of pish on here for sport. It would be awful if you couldn't see the irony in that statement given the SNP's insistence on free prescriptions and council tax freezes for the well-off (which I do think should be scrapped) alongside not using the income tax powers (which I don't think should be used).

I know someone who works for the SNP leadership and they're not as on message as you come across on here. Take a break from the press releases and worldview-confirming websites and you might form some of your own opinions.

[RyeSloan]

I don't see it as a problem to tax & spend. If we want services they must be paid for. I also do see the issue of the higher paid paying more. Under these proposals I'd be contributing considerably more but personally I but don't use a lot of the services under threat from Swinneys cuts but it's about the society we want to live in.

A society that places more and more reliance on fewer and fewer people is not a sound one. I don't have the Scotland only figures but the UK figures are quite enlightening...

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/27/how-many-pay-top-rate-of-income-tax-uk

I suppose in one way at least the labour proposal targeted a broad range of tax payers so probably would have not exacerbated this trend...

For balance its a bit old but this is an interesting piece

https://fullfact.org/economy/income-tax-are-top-1-really-paying-more/

So while those earning the most are contributing more and more of the overall value the percentage of their income that they contribute would appear to have remained relatively static...that would suggest there may be room to squeeze more out of them but anyone can see that putting even more reliance on fewer people will leave the system very exposed.

To make this trend worse the lib dem policy gleefully stolen by Gideon of raising the tax allowance has reduced even more the contribution of the lower paid masses. Now I get the fact that this directly helps the lower paid but I would suggest it doesn't help the state or indeed share the burden or indeed allow people to appreciate that in a fair society everyone should contribute at least something...the often heralded Swedish model for example sees an income tax allowance of under £3k.

Not saying right or wrong either way but I think we need to wake up to the fact that government services used by all should be paid for by as many people as possible, even if that contribution is a small one. A society that continues to ask fewer and fewer people to provide a bigger and ever increasing share of income tax revenue is a route that is destined to fail at some point.

[ronaldo7]

I'm hoping that you only spout this type of pish on here for sport. It would be awful if you couldn't see the irony in that statement given the SNP's insistence on free prescriptions and council tax freezes for the well-off (which I do think should be scrapped) alongside not using the income tax powers (which I don't think should be used).

I know someone who works for the SNP leadership and they're not as on message as you come across on here. Take a break from the press releases and worldview-confirming websites and you might form some of your own opinions.


:yawn:

It's nice to see your sarcasm hasn't diminished. It's quite easy you know, just put my posts on ignore, or don't read them. You know you want to.

I won't hold my breath on you taking a stand on anything though.

Have a nice day now.

[allmodcons]

As a party member I fought to try change policies I did not like or believe in. New Labour held power and a lot bought into it. I also had some good local councillors, excellent MPs (not all of them) and MSPs who were worth campaigning for.

Thanks, was genuinely interested to learn of your reasons for knocking doors on behalf of New Labour.



It might be a surprise to some folk but there are always folk who disagree with the leadership but remain in a political party. Ever heard a politician talk about 'broad churches'? Again, it might be a surprise to some but there are SNP members who disagree with the party on just about everything except for independence.

Thanks for your condescending response to a question asked (in interest) of Lucky.

"Ever heard of a politician talk about broad churches?" LOL

[ronaldo7]

Your wrong Labour did not vote for the cuts.

But the reality the SNP chose yesterday to implement cut on the Scottish people rather than raise tax. In anyone's book that is not anti austerity or left leaning. There was a reason why Murdo Fraser said the SNP decision warmed his Tory heart.

You might have forgotten about the LABOUR MPs who DID vote for the Tory cuts mate. Here's a list for you.

Douglas Alexander
Willie Bain
Gordon Banks
Anne Begg
Michael Connarty
Russell Brown
Margaret Curran
Iain Davidson
Thomas Docherty
Brian Donohoe
Frank Doran
Gemma Doyle
Tom Greatrex
Tom Harris
Jimmy Hood
David Hamilton
Cathy Jamieson
Iain Mackenzie
Michael McCann
Gregg McClymont
Anne McGuire
Graham Morris
Ian Murray (spit)
Pamela Nash
Fiona O'Donnell
John Robertson
Frank Roy
Anas Sarwar...The new/old pin up boy of Scottish Labour

Sorry Anat:wink:

[One Day Soon]

You might have forgotten about the LABOUR MPs who DID vote for the Tory cuts mate. Here's a list for you.

Douglas Alexander
Willie Bain
Gordon Banks
Anne Begg
Michael Connarty
Russell Brown
Margaret Curran
Iain Davidson
Thomas Docherty
Brian Donohoe
Frank Doran
Gemma Doyle
Tom Greatrex
Tom Harris
Jimmy Hood
David Hamilton
Cathy Jamieson
Iain Mackenzie
Michael McCann
Gregg McClymont
Anne McGuire
Graham Morris
Ian Murray (spit)
Pamela Nash
Fiona O'Donnell
John Robertson
Frank Roy
Anus Sarwar...The new/old pin up boy of Scottish Labour


'Anus'?

[ronaldo7]

'Anus'?

:rolleyes::faf:

[The_Todd]

You might have forgotten about the LABOUR MPs who DID vote for the Tory cuts mate. Here's a list for you.

Douglas Alexander
Willie Bain
Gordon Banks
Anne Begg
Michael Connarty
Russell Brown
Margaret Curran
Iain Davidson
Thomas Docherty
Brian Donohoe
Frank Doran
Gemma Doyle
Tom Greatrex
Tom Harris
Jimmy Hood
David Hamilton
Cathy Jamieson
Iain Mackenzie
Michael McCann
Gregg McClymont
Anne McGuire
Graham Morris
Ian Murray (spit)
Pamela Nash
Fiona O'Donnell
John Robertson
Frank Roy
Anas Sarwar...The new/old pin up boy of Scottish Labour

Sorry Anat:wink:

I see political debate on this forum is still mired in lies and mistruths from the SNP fanatics. What "vote for cuts" was that? And as for your "spit" at Ian Murray, if you're letting football cloud your politics then I think this conversation will be a short one.

[ronaldo7]

No I'm not, they did. Was passed by 515 votes to 18.


I see political debate on this forum is still mired in lies and mistruths from the SNP fanatics. What "vote for cuts" was that? And as for your "spit" at Ian Murray, if you're letting football cloud your politics then I think this conversation will be a short one.

I know it's difficult to keep up with the many Labour abstentions or actually voting with the Tories, however it's this one, correctly noted by GH:aok:

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-2a08-Labour-MPs-backing-for-austerity-Bill-a-disservice

[Hibrandenburg]

I see political debate on this forum is still mired in lies and mistruths from the SNP fanatics. What "vote for cuts" was that? And as for your "spit" at Ian Murray, if you're letting football cloud your politics then I think this conversation will be a short one.

I stopped reading after fanatics. It's pointless listening to posters whose main argumentation is insults.

[lucky]

'Taxpayer's alliance'
For the Conservatives, Gavin Brown claimed there was a "taxpayers alliance" between his party and the SNP, describing the governing party as a "fiscal conservative party".
He said: "We don't think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK."
He said it would "send out entirely the wrong message" to raise taxes at the first opportunity with new powers.

[CapitalGreen]

'Taxpayer's alliance'
For the Conservatives, Gavin Brown claimed there was a "taxpayers alliance" between his party and the SNP, describing the governing party as a "fiscal conservative party".
He said: "We don't think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK."
He said it would "send out entirely the wrong message" to raise taxes at the first opportunity with new powers.

Do you think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK?

[marinello59]

'Taxpayer's alliance'
For the Conservatives, Gavin Brown claimed there was a "taxpayers alliance" between his party and the SNP, describing the governing party as a "fiscal conservative party".
He said: "We don't think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK."
He said it would "send out entirely the wrong message" to raise taxes at the first opportunity with new powers.


I hate to give a Tory any credit but that's a wonderful piece of mischief making by Gavin Brown. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

'Taxpayer's alliance'
For the Conservatives, Gavin Brown claimed there was a "taxpayers alliance" between his party and the SNP, describing the governing party as a "fiscal conservative party".
He said: "We don't think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK."
He said it would "send out entirely the wrong message" to raise taxes at the first opportunity with new powers.

He's talking pish, as usual.

[marinello59]

He's talking pish, as usual.

That's no way to talk about one of your fiscal soul mates. :greengrin

[ronaldo7]

That's no way to talk about one of your fiscal soul mates. :greengrin

:greengrin

Mates,:rolleyes: he couldnae lace Swinney's boots, as seen by the Fiscal framework negs.:aok:

The Tories are on a pincer move to get the SNP to stand on a platform with them for an EU in vote. Never, Never, Never.

[lucky]

Do you think hardworking people in Scotland should be paying more in tax than people in the rest of the UK?

Yes if means the hard working people of Scotland want better public services. I know I do.

[ronaldo7]

Mhairi sets the record straight on the Union Tax.

https://t.co/LhxUEfewwR

[Colr]

Yes if means the hard working people of Scotland want better public services. I know I do.

Do you donate additional money to public services at the moment? How many people do that?

[RyeSloan]

Mhairi sets the record straight on the Union Tax. https://t.co/LhxUEfewwR

I find the party political slant on all of his rather depressing....sure have a go a your opponents but that whole article was just one politically motivated attack after another. The SNP are quick enough to attack Labour for not having any policies but where is Mhairi's policies in that piece?

I noticed this quote (a SNP fav.) "Tory cuts that we would not have to endure if we were an independent nation with an elected independent parliament" Sure we wouldn't Mhairi but with oil struggling to be even worth $30 a barrel what would the SNP cuts in an independent Scotland have looked like?

She says we are not stupid enough to fall for Labours policies but she must think that we are stupid enough to think that we will fall for her total avoidance of the economic truth (the UK still does not raise enough tax to cover expenditure...Scotland would not either) so either spending goes down, taxes up or some mixture of both.

She finishes the article by saying the Tories have no mandate in Scotland despite for every 3 SNP votes their was 1 Conservative (not exactly nothing) but seems to conveniently forget to use that logic when talking about independence where quite clearly her party and portion were defeated by popular vote.

[marinello59]

Mhairi sets the record straight on the Union Tax.

https://t.co/LhxUEfewwR

I'm not so sure she has. I like Mhairi Black but that's just a rant rather than anything of substance.

[ronaldo7]

I find the party political slant on all of his rather depressing....sure have a go a your opponents but that whole article was just one politically motivated attack after another. The SNP are quick enough to attack Labour for not having any policies but where is Mhairi's policies in that piece?

I noticed this quote (a SNP fav.) "Tory cuts that we would not have to endure if we were an independent nation with an elected independent parliament" Sure we wouldn't Mhairi but with oil struggling to be even worth $30 a barrel what would the SNP cuts in an independent Scotland have looked like?

She says we are not stupid enough to fall for Labours policies but she must think that we are stupid enough to think that we will fall for her total avoidance of the economic truth (the UK still does not raise enough tax to cover expenditure...Scotland would not either) so either spending goes down, taxes up or some mixture of both.

She finishes the article by saying the Tories have no mandate in Scotland despite for every 3 SNP votes their was 1 Conservative (not exactly nothing) but seems to conveniently forget to use that logic when talking about independence where quite clearly her party and portion were defeated by popular vote.


I'm not so sure she has. I like Mhairi Black but that's just a rant rather than anything of substance.


I agree, some of it's a bit of a rant, however she's showing up the Labour Tax policy for what it is. I've asked continually of Kezia Dugdale to explain how the "rebate" works and how much it's all costing. Silence is golden.

They knew what they were doing the other week on the tax increases. It was a political ploy, nothing more, nothing less. They're allowed to do it, as we all are, but to really think this policy would fly is like Hearts winning the replay:greengrin

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm all for redistribution, but for me the priority must be making those at the top of the income scale contribute more. A top marginal rate of 45% just isn't good enough when applied to millionaires and billionaires.

[AndyM_1875]

Its quite something seeing SNP supporters and official SNP accounts talk about how important it was to shut off the Labour & Lib Dem plans for a tax rise.

So how are we going to pay for those services then that our Councils will have to close or cut back? Or are they to be sacrificed as our elected Scottish Government basically fails to take responsibility and says 'A big boy did it and ran away'?

[ronaldo7]

Bateman gets it right most of the time, but I'm sure even he'll see the 50% tax rate coming in during the life of the next parliament as a good thing. The rest hits the spot for me and probably the other 50% of the electorate.:greengrin

Awesome.

http://derekbateman.scot/2016/03/23/ahm-no-weel/ …

[One Day Soon]

Bateman gets it right most of the time, but I'm sure even he'll see the 50% tax rate coming in during the life of the next parliament as a good thing. The rest hits the spot for me and probably the other 50% of the electorate.:greengrin

Awesome.

http://derekbateman.scot/2016/03/23/ahm-no-weel/ …


:LOL::LOL::LOL: to the bit in bold, but let's not be distracted too much by that epic claim.


Nicola Sturgeon: Says there's clear evidence a 50p rate would make high earning executives flee Scotland so it shouldn't be done (at final FMQ of the Parliament)

Nicola Sturgeon: I haven’t ruled it out for the rest of the parliament (First leader debate of election campaign)


This is the kind of manipulative pi5h New Labour used to come out with and is precisely why the Legoland tag is so, so apt.


But the far more important point about that article is his celebration of the narrow party interest of why the SNP tax position is so good - good for the SNP electorally that is, rather than good for what Scotland needs.

During the Referendum in September 2014 we were awash with food banks, poverty and crumbling public services. Now apparently - in the space of just 18 months - it is just fine to leave tax as it is. Presumably the poverty, food banks and crumbling public services just fixed themselves.

[ronaldo7]

:LOL::LOL::LOL: to the bit in bold, but let's not be distracted too much by that epic claim.


Nicola Sturgeon: Says there's clear evidence a 50p rate would make high earning executives flee Scotland so it shouldn't be done (at final FMQ of the Parliament)

Nicola Sturgeon: I haven’t ruled it out for the rest of the parliament (First leader debate of election campaign)


This is the kind of manipulative pi5h New Labour used to come out with and is precisely why the Legoland tag is so, so apt.


But the far more important point about that article is his celebration of the narrow party interest of why the SNP tax position is so good - good for the SNP electorally that is, rather than good for what Scotland needs.

During the Referendum in September 2014 we were awash with food banks, poverty and crumbling public services. Now apparently - in the space of just 18 months - it is just fine to leave tax as it is. Presumably the poverty, food banks and crumbling public services just fixed themselves.


Bateman! I thought it was Batman. Here bud, take a chill with this.:aok:

http://fangirlnation.com/2016/03/28/monday-just-got-better-lego-batman-movie-teaser-two/ …

I'm glad you're back with us, although you'll need to get that Lego Movie out of your system:greengrin

Nice to see that you admire Bateman, I'll need to look up some more of his stuff, and intertwine it with some WOS links just to keep you on your toes.:wink:

I don't know why you're bothering...You've given up the ghost on the Election for this year and the foreseeable future.

On the subject of leaving tax alone...Not strictly true is it. Tory tax cuts for those in the mid band won't go ahead in Scotland raising over £1Billion over the course of the next parliament, but I'm sure you knew that. It seems you're tailspin has now stopped, and we now only have spin.:aok:

Have a nice evening 1DS, :devil:

[Moulin Yarns]

Bateman! I thought it was Batman. Here bud, take a chill with this.:aok:

http://fangirlnation.com/2016/03/28/monday-just-got-better-lego-batman-movie-teaser-two/ …

I'm glad you're back with us, although you'll need to get that Lego Movie out of your system:greengrin

Nice to see that you admire Bateman, I'll need to look up some more of his stuff, and intertwine it with some WOS links just to keep you on your toes.:wink:

I don't know why you're bothering...You've given up the ghost on the Election for this year and the foreseeable future.

On the subject of leaving tax alone...Not strictly true is it. Tory tax cuts for those in the mid band won't go ahead in Scotland raising over £1Billion over the course of the next parliament, but I'm sure you knew that. It seems you're tailspin has now stopped, and we now only have spin.:aok:

Have a nice evening 1DS, :devil:

IDS? I thought he resigned

[RyeSloan]

Bateman gets it right most of the time, but I'm sure even he'll see the 50% tax rate coming in during the life of the next parliament as a good thing. The rest hits the spot for me and probably the other 50% of the electorate.:greengrin Awesome. http://derekbateman.scot/2016/03/23/ahm-no-weel/ …

So you support a 50% tax rate even although there is good evidence to suggest it would actually raise little or worse, less?

[One Day Soon]

Bateman! I thought it was Batman. Here bud, take a chill with this.:aok:

http://fangirlnation.com/2016/03/28/monday-just-got-better-lego-batman-movie-teaser-two/ …

I'm glad you're back with us, although you'll need to get that Lego Movie out of your system:greengrin

Nice to see that you admire Bateman, I'll need to look up some more of his stuff, and intertwine it with some WOS links just to keep you on your toes.:wink:

I don't know why you're bothering...You've given up the ghost on the Election for this year and the foreseeable future.

On the subject of leaving tax alone...Not strictly true is it. Tory tax cuts for those in the mid band won't go ahead in Scotland raising over £1Billion over the course of the next parliament, but I'm sure you knew that. It seems you're tailspin has now stopped, and we now only have spin.:aok:

Have a nice evening 1DS, :devil:


So, three key points here.

1. You've completely ignored the point about Nikla facing two ways at once on the 50p tax proposal. Not surprising really since it is indefensible.

2. You've completely ignored the point about Bateman celebrating the narrow party interest of the SNP on the tax position, rather than what Scotland needs. Not surprising since you've basically become that kind of 'I speak your SNP press release line' machine too.

3. Not implementing Tory tax cuts doesn't raise extra money - it just means there isn't less money than there was last year. Effectively it leaves us with the same amount of money. And that same amount of money is, remember, what Nikla was previously telling us just wasn't enough to fix the food banks, poverty and crumbling public services. Presumably there's a party in your house every year if your employer doesn't cut your wages?

But hey, in SNP world "Everything is awesome...".

[One Day Soon]

So you support a 50% tax rate even although there is good evidence to suggest it would actually raise little or worse, less?

I don't think there's an SNP line for them to parrot on this yet. They're against a 50p tax in Parliament if someone else proposes it but they they're maybe for it in any election campaign leader's debate if it seems that Nikla might get a hard time for being against it.

So basically its a case of which way the wind is blowing. They are New Labour reborn.

[ronaldo7]

So you support a 50% tax rate even although there is good evidence to suggest it would actually raise little or worse, less?

I've already made my position on the 50% tax rate clear, I've even offered a bet on the subject.

[ronaldo7]

You can always rely on Labour to announce a policy, and within weeks, it's been scrapped.

No more space on the back of the fag packet. They've not got a ****in clue.

http://bit.ly/1ZKJtxv

[RyeSloan]

I've already made my position on the 50% tax rate clear, I've even offered a bet on the subject.

Sorry I must have missed that...what was your position (and more interestingly maybe what was the bet!)

[ronaldo7]

Sorry I must have missed that...what was your position (and more interestingly maybe what was the bet!)

I've said that I'd increase the rate for the top earners to 50%, but not in the first year. The bet was that the 45% would increase to 50% within the lifetime of the parliament, if the SNP get elected.

[Mr Grieves]

You can always rely on Labour to announce a policy, and within weeks, it's been scrapped.

No more space on the back of the fag packet. They've not got a ****in clue.

http://bit.ly/1ZKJtxv
So It's just the rebate they've scrapped and not the proposed1% rise? So much for looking after the low paid

[ronaldo7]

So It's just the rebate they've scrapped and not the proposed1% rise? So much for looking after the low paid

:agree: Hitting the low paid and pensioners. It's the Labour way.

[One Day Soon]

I've said that I'd increase the rate for the top earners to 50%, but not in the first year. The bet was that the 45% would increase to 50% within the lifetime of the parliament, if the SNP get elected.

Is that SNP policy?

[ronaldo7]

Is that SNP policy?

:dunno: You might want to check Legoland.

[One Day Soon]

:dunno: You might want to check Legoland.


I would but they're a bit busy dancing around and singing...

So is it SNP policy? You're not usually so shy about setting out their position.

[allmodcons]

I would but they're a bit busy dancing around and singing...

So is it SNP policy? You're not usually so shy about setting out their position.

It's not SNP policy. They have said they'll review it! Fwiw I'd back it now. The concerns around high earners domiciling in England doesn't sit well with me.

[ronaldo7]

I would but they're a bit busy dancing around and singing...

So is it SNP policy? You're not usually so shy about setting out their position.

:dunno: I'm sure you'll be along to tell me all about it later on. Meantime if off for a wee boogie.:aok:

[One Day Soon]

It's not SNP policy. They have said they'll review it! Fwiw I'd back it now. The concerns around high earners domiciling in England doesn't sit well with me.

Right, no 50p rate in the next parliament then.

[One Day Soon]

:dunno: I'm sure you'll be along to tell me all about it later on. Meantime if off for a wee boogie.:aok:


You're getting confused, resident SNP cheerleader is your role.

Anyway AMC has clarified it. No SNP 50p rate in the next parliament.

[Moulin Yarns]

Right, no 50p rate in the next parliament then.

There won't be a 50p rate if the Greens hold a balance of power. 60p is the way to go.

What is the concerns for high earners moving south of the border? Income tax is paid where it is earned.

[CropleyWasGod]

There won't be a 50p rate if the Greens hold a balance of power. 60p is the way to go.

What is the concerns for high earners moving south of the border? Income tax is paid where it is earned.
It's based on residence, not necessarily where the work is done .

So someone living in Carlisle, but working in Dumfries, would pay English tax.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Moulin Yarns]

It's based on residence, not necessarily where the work is done .

So someone living in Carlisle, but working in Dumfries, would pay English tax.



Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

I didn't realise that. Surely PAYE is work based?

[CropleyWasGod]

I didn't realise that. Surely PAYE is work based?
The PAYE collection and payment is the responsibility of the employer, yes. HMRC, though, will have to allocate that payment between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
If you're a Scottish resident, you'll have an "S" tax code as of next month. That will instruct HMRC to allocate your tax to Scotland.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[allmodcons]

You're getting confused, resident SNP cheerleader is your role.

Anyway AMC has clarified it. No SNP 50p rate in the next parliament.

That's not quite what I said ODS. My understanding is that they're proposing to monitor it on an annual basis. If the 'expert' information they're getting shows a positive tax take they may implement 50% rate. I'm not happy with this position and genuinely think we (the SNP) are weak on the 50% rate.

[ronaldo7]

You're getting confused, resident SNP cheerleader is your role.

Anyway AMC has clarified it. No SNP 50p rate in the next parliament.

Not exactly true, but don't let that get in the way of you positioning the SNP for the future.

[RyeSloan]

That's not quite what I said ODS. My understanding is that they're proposing to monitor it on an annual basis. If the 'expert' information they're getting shows a positive tax take they may implement 50% rate. I'm not happy with this position and genuinely think we (the SNP) are weak on the 50% rate.

How can the situation change though? If there is enough flexibility in the few high earners we are talking about for enough of them to move their earnings south today then surely it will be the same next year?

Seems to me that people want the 50p rate as more of a moral thing than actually anything to do with revenue raising. I think Labour are saying they would implement it anyway even if it cost the nation £30m...which is even more bonkers than the SNP having an 'expert review' on an annual basis.

[RyeSloan]

I've said that I'd increase the rate for the top earners to 50%, but not in the first year. The bet was that the 45% would increase to 50% within the lifetime of the parliament, if the SNP get elected.

Same question then...what difference does the first year make? And what's your stakes in this bet? Is there a bath of beans invoked ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

How can the situation change though? If there is enough flexibility in the few high earners we are talking about for enough of them to move their earnings south today then surely it will be the same next year?

Seems to me that people want the 50p rate as more of a moral thing than actually anything to do with revenue raising. I think Labour are saying they would implement it anyway even if it cost the nation £30m...which is even more bonkers than the SNP having an 'expert review' on an annual basis.
I suspect that there may be a rash of Court cases over the next few years in light of the new Scottish tax. The question of residence, although fairly clear in UK terms, might be challenged by both taxpayer and HMRC . It's a new situation, and case law will have a big part to play in establishing principles.

Those principles will have an effect on Government tax take, so there's one of the potential changes that you're asking about.

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[steakbake]

It's all about the gradual approach... good to see Scottish politics having debates about actual tax policy and potential changes and revenue raising. Keep on growing the impact of the parliament and widen decision making beyond schools, agriculture and forestry in to central matters of governance. Then that apparent leap in the dark people were asked to make 18 months ago will be just a short step in a few years time.

[One Day Soon]

What is the bottom line here? Can someone point to a black and white official SNP statement on what their policy on the 50p tax rate is?

Not an 'I believe' or an 'I'm betting', but the Party's actual stated policy. It isn't an unreasonable question, they are going to be running the country (again) after all.

[marinello59]

You can always rely on Labour to announce a policy, and within weeks, it's been scrapped.

No more space on the back of the fag packet. They've not got a ****in clue.

http://bit.ly/1ZKJtxv

The whole rebate thing was a bit wooly to say the least and left them open to attack. This leaves them open to ridicule. What a shambles.
At least they got their u-turn in quickly though. It took the SNP something like 8 years to announce their radical alternative to the Council Tax which turned out to be the preferred Tory option of keeping the Council Tax.

[ronaldo7]

You're getting confused, resident SNP cheerleader is your role.

Anyway AMC has clarified it. No SNP 50p rate in the next parliament.

:hahaha: And this from someone who's been in la la lego land for the last few weeks.

[ronaldo7]

The whole rebate thing was a bit wooly to say the least and left them open to attack. This leaves them open to ridicule. What a shambles.
At least they got their u-turn in quickly though. It took the SNP something like 8 years to announce their radical alternative to the Council Tax which turned out to be the preferred Tory option of keeping the Council Tax.

You forgot about them trying to implement a local income tax, only to be booted out by the other parties, but I take your point. I've only had a freeze on my council tax for 8 years, but that never pulled the rug from the feet of the poor/pensioners.

Cue:wink: posts from Legoman.

[RyeSloan]

I suspect that there may be a rash of Court cases over the next few years in light of the new Scottish tax. The question of residence, although fairly clear in UK terms, might be challenged by both taxpayer and HMRC . It's a new situation, and case law will have a big part to play in establishing principles. Those principles will have an effect on Government tax take, so there's one of the potential changes that you're asking about. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Good point...but they are happy enough to make the 40% threshold different immediately so they don't seem overly worried about that.

To be honest I'm just a bit confused, there is clearly little to be gained if anything from a higher top level so you would have assumed it was quite easy to state that then rule it out. Yet we seem to be in a place that we now need to be seen to be taxing the rich more just because. Think I would be spending my time more on encouraging more of our citizens to be that rich that they paid the existing top rate, that would be the most effective way of raising more revenue and thus paying for all the services, including those used by the half of the nation that pays no income tax at all.

It seems that doing well in Scotland only makes you a target for the governments piggy bank and to be somehow made out to be not doing your bit or 'should shoulder more'. A kind of subtle demonisation of those that already pay well over their share, a rather strange state of affairs.

[CropleyWasGod]

Good point...but they are happy enough to make the 40% threshold different immediately so they don't seem overly worried about that.

To be honest I'm just a bit confused, there is clearly little to be gained if anything from a higher top level so you would have assumed it was quite easy to state that then rule it out. Yet we seem to be in a place that we now need to be seen to be taxing the rich more just because. Think I would be spending my time more on encouraging more of our citizens to be that rich that they paid the existing top rate, that would be the most effective way of raising more revenue and thus paying for all the services, including those used by the half of the nation that pays no income tax at all.

It seems that doing well in Scotland only makes you a target for the governments piggy bank and to be somehow made out to be not doing your bit or 'should shoulder more'. A kind of subtle demonisation of those that already pay well over their share, a rather strange state of affairs.
The change in the Higher Rate threshold would be worth, at the most, about £300 per HR taxpayer. That's political point - scoring, IMO, and not worth even thinking about a call to one's tax adviser.



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[Moulin Yarns]

The change in the Higher Rate threshold would be worth, at the most, about £300 per HR taxpayer. That's political point - scoring, IMO, and not worth even thinking about a call to one's tax adviser.



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What about the Greens plan for more bands and a higher rate of 60%? Plan is to raise a further £331m

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3751/scottish-greens-tax-plans-unveiled-rises-for-the-rich-cuts-for-the-poor-sp16

[One Day Soon]

The whole rebate thing was a bit wooly to say the least and left them open to attack. This leaves them open to ridicule. What a shambles.
At least they got their u-turn in quickly though. It took the SNP something like 8 years to announce their radical alternative to the Council Tax which turned out to be the preferred Tory option of keeping the Council Tax.

The Nats didn't earn their Tartan Tories tag for no reason.

Maybe they refused to implement their Local Income Tax pledge because it would lose money rather than raise it? Seems to be their favoured Get Out of Jail Free card at the moment.

[CropleyWasGod]

What about the Greens plan for more bands and a higher rate of 60%? Plan is to raise a further £331m

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3751/scottish-greens-tax-plans-unveiled-rises-for-the-rich-cuts-for-the-poor-sp16
TBH, I haven't crunched those numbers, although I did see one of their own publications that did.

I'm also less inclined to look at them, since I have enough numbers in my head already and....much as I like the Greens. ....I can't see their proposals coming in to practice [emoji4]

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[One Day Soon]

:hahaha: And this from someone who's been in la la lego land for the last few weeks.


The "Everything is awesome..." caricature really grinds Nat nuts. By contrast it cracks up normal people with a healthy disregard for politicians.

You should read some Malcolm Gladwell - 'Blink' particularly. The art of the political message is finding resonance with what people instantly recognise. And where the SNP is concerned Lego is definitely where its at. :agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

The "Everything is awesome..." caricature really grinds Nat nuts. By contrast it cracks up normal people with a healthy disregard for politicians.

You should read some Malcolm Gladwell - 'Blink' particularly. The art of the political message is finding resonance with what people instantly recognise. And where the SNP is concerned Lego is definitely where its at. :agree:

Prefer this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grffvj9RDdA

[One Day Soon]

You forgot about them trying to implement a local income tax, only to be booted out by the other parties, but I take your point. I've only had a freeze on my council tax for 8 years, but that never pulled the rug from the feet of the poor/pensioners.

Cue:wink: posts from Legoman.


Pensioners get the heaviest Council Tax discount. Those frozen Council Tax revenues could have been used to protect public services for - that's right, the poorest and pensioners who depend on those services disproportionately. But screw it, lets have an 8 year freeze that disproportionately benefits the richest people in the biggest houses in Bands G and H to advance the electoral position of the SNP. That's really egalitarian.

SNP: Talk Left, Act Right. Its the posture politics of feeding people the opportunity to feel radical while never having to actually pony up.

So "Everything is awesome..." - in your wallet anyway.

[One Day Soon]

Prefer this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grffvj9RDdA


Ha ha - like it. Just missing a helicopter, selfie and saltire and we have something fit for domestic consumption.

[Colr]

The PAYE collection and payment is the responsibility of the employer, yes. HMRC, though, will have to allocate that payment between Scotland and the rest of the UK.
If you're a Scottish resident, you'll have an "S" tax code as of next month. That will instruct HMRC to allocate your tax to Scotland.

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Interesting! If I was to work 5 days a week in Edinburgh but go to a home in England where my family would live at the weekend, would I be English resident, then?

Sort of like non-dom status

[One Day Soon]

TBH, I haven't crunched those numbers, although I did see one of their own publications that did.

I'm also less inclined to look at them, since I have enough numbers in my head already and....much as I like the Greens. ....I can't see their proposals coming in to practice [emoji4]

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I think this is the key point. Unless there is a political earthquake there is only going to be one party running Scotland for the next five years - and maybe longer. Therefore getting a very clear understanding in advance of what their policies are and are not is what is important. All the more so with no revising second chamber and the committees under one party control too.

A cute move from Nikla would be to indicate the intention (in the event of an SNP win) to take minority positions in some or all of the Parliament's committees in the interest of accountability and democracy. But they won't. They'll toss the fig leaf of the Presiding Officer post to the opposition instead.

[CropleyWasGod]

Interesting! If I was to work 5 days a week in Edinburgh but go to a home in England where my family would live at the weekend, would I be English resident, then?

Sort of like non-dom status

Yes, you would.

However, this is the kind of situation that might come under review and challenge, either by the taxpayer or HMRC, if there is sufficient disparity between the cross-border rates.

[RyeSloan]

The change in the Higher Rate threshold would be worth, at the most, about £300 per HR taxpayer. That's political point - scoring, IMO, and not worth even thinking about a call to one's tax adviser. Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Fair point and I kind of got that but it's interesting none the less that they have done one but not the other because on the face of it they think they can get away with it ;-)

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

[ronaldo7]

The "Everything is awesome..." caricature really grinds Nat nuts. By contrast it cracks up normal people with a healthy disregard for politicians.

You should read some Malcolm Gladwell - 'Blink' particularly. The art of the political message is finding resonance with what people instantly recognise. And where the SNP is concerned Lego is definitely where its at. :agree:

Really?

Think you need to get out a bit more if you think your lego satire cracks people up 1DS.

Stay off the x box as they lego boys have taken you into another dimension ;-)

[ronaldo7]

Pensioners get the heaviest Council Tax discount. Those frozen Council Tax revenues could have been used to protect public services for - that's right, the poorest and pensioners who depend on those services disproportionately. But screw it, lets have an 8 year freeze that disproportionately benefits the richest people in the biggest houses in Bands G and H to advance the electoral position of the SNP. That's really egalitarian.

SNP: Talk Left, Act Right. Its the posture politics of feeding people the opportunity to feel radical while never having to actually pony up.

So "Everything is awesome..." - in your wallet anyway.

Council tax freeze fully funded by the scot gov, but you knew that.

[ronaldo7]

Ha ha - like it. Just missing a helicopter, selfie and saltire and we have something fit for domestic consumption.

Get with the programme 1DS, its a Nicolopter ;-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair point and I kind of got that but it's interesting none the less that they have done one but not the other because on the face of it they think they can get away with it ;-)

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.

I think it's less "we can get away with it" and more "look at us. We can do this now, so we will." Labour did it when they were in power here, and resisted the orders of their London masters. It's just making a point, IMO.

[JeMeSouviens]

Good god, even Labour's house journal is turning against them now ...

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/record-view-tax-u-turn-7660617#L5TIJigOodPkspzV.97

[One Day Soon]

Council tax freeze fully funded by the scot gov, but you knew that.

Councils forced to go for freeze because of threatened penalties from Scottish Government. Meant that they had less to spend than Council Tax increase would have raised. You should know that but probably just Legoed it out.

And which budget do you think the Scottish Government money was taken from? Ultimately the Council Tax freeze you were so happy to trouser was paid for by money that should have gone into public services.

SNP: Talk Left, Act Right.

[One Day Soon]

Really?

Think you need to get out a bit more if you think your lego satire cracks people up 1DS.

Stay off the x box as they lego boys have taken you into another dimension ;-)


Resonance, Nocando7, resonance. As certain as death and taxes.

Well, perhaps not taxes in SNP land...

[Geo_1875]

Councils forced to go for freeze because of threatened penalties from Scottish Government. Meant that they had less to spend than Council Tax increase would have raised. You should know that but probably just Legoed it out.

And which budget do you think the Scottish Government money was taken from? Ultimately the Council Tax freeze you were so happy to trouser was paid for by money that should have gone into public services.

SNP: Talk Left, Act Right.

I'm confused by this. Did the central government funds used to offset the council tax freeze not go into public services? Are you accusing local government officials and councillors of pilfering the money?

[One Day Soon]

I'm confused by this. Did the central government funds used to offset the council tax freeze not go into public services? Are you accusing local government officials and councillors of pilfering the money?

Seriously?

1. The central government funds used to offset the Council Tax freeze went into public services. But that central government money didn't come from thin air, it was money that would other wise would have been used on public services elsewhere.
2. All Council taxpayers trousered the money that the Council tax freeze meant they didn't have to pay in higher Council Taxes. It has nothing to do with local government officials and councillors pilfering.
3. The net effect of all this has been less money for public services than should have been the case. To the disproportionate benefit of the wealthiest in society and at the cost of poorer public services for those who need them most - the elderly and the poorest.

[RyeSloan]

Seriously? 1. The central government funds used to offset the Council Tax freeze went into public services. But that central government money didn't come from thin air, it was money that would other wise would have been used on public services elsewhere. 2. All Council taxpayers trousered the money that the Council tax freeze meant they didn't have to pay in higher Council Taxes. It has nothing to do with local government officials and councillors pilfering. 3. The net effect of all this has been less money for public services than should have been the case. To the disproportionate benefit of the wealthiest in society and at the cost of poorer public services for those who need them most - the elderly and the poorest.

But this can't be true. It would mean that the Scottish Government has for the last 8 years had the ability to allow taxes to rise to offset Tory imposed austerity but have consciously not done so. While at the same time demanding more tax powers so they could offset Tory imposed austerity....

[One Day Soon]

But this can't be true. It would mean that the Scottish Government has for the last 8 years had the ability to allow taxes to rise to offset Tory imposed austerity but have consciously not done so. While at the same time demanding more tax powers so they could offset Tory imposed austerity....

Tartan Tory hypocrites. Who'd have thought it?

[ronaldo7]

But this can't be true. It would mean that the Scottish Government has for the last 8 years had the ability to allow taxes to rise to offset Tory imposed austerity but have consciously not done so. While at the same time demanding more tax powers so they could offset Tory imposed austerity....


Tartan Tory hypocrites. Who'd have thought it?

Ach, that's it, I'm leaving the cult, and the Lego apologists, I'm joining you guys in a new epic era for the Yoons.

:rockin: Yoon army, Yoon army.

16327

#Huntygowk

[RyeSloan]

Ach, that's it, I'm leaving the cult, and the Lego apologists, I'm joining you guys in a new epic era for the Yoons. :rockin: Yoon army, Yoon army. <img src="http://www.hibs.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=16327"/> #Huntygowk

So anyone who points out a potential hypocritical policy of the SNP is now a Yoon?

Rather disturbing that it seems less and less possible to disagree with an SNP policy or even attempt to discuss how some of their policies and statements seem hypocritical or counter acting without being branded a Unionist. I suppose it's deliberately divisive.

[Beefster]

What is a Yoon anyway? I'm assuming it is a witty, derogatory term for someone who doesn't follow the SNP party line that has been invented by the guy in Bath?

[Geo_1875]

Seriously?

1. The central government funds used to offset the Council Tax freeze went into public services. But that central government money didn't come from thin air, it was money that would other wise would have been used on public services elsewhere.
2. All Council taxpayers trousered the money that the Council tax freeze meant they didn't have to pay in higher Council Taxes. It has nothing to do with local government officials and councillors pilfering.
3. The net effect of all this has been less money for public services than should have been the case. To the disproportionate benefit of the wealthiest in society and at the cost of poorer public services for those who need them most - the elderly and the poorest.

So your preferred method of increasing funding to offset Westminster's austerity policy is to allow local authorities free rein to increase rates of council tax, a model which is decried by all parties as outdated and unfair.

[Geo_1875]

So anyone who points out a potential hypocritical policy of the SNP is now a Yoon?

Rather disturbing that it seems less and less possible to disagree with an SNP policy or even attempt to discuss how some of their policies and statements seem hypocritical or counter acting without being branded a Unionist. I suppose it's deliberately divisive.

Nationalist/Unionist should be set on the shelf until the next referendum comes around. Though strangely enough they appear to be interchangeable for the upcoming EU referendum.

[ronaldo7]

So anyone who points out a potential hypocritical policy of the SNP is now a Yoon?

Rather disturbing that it seems less and less possible to disagree with an SNP policy or even attempt to discuss how some of their policies and statements seem hypocritical or counter acting without being branded a Unionist. I suppose it's deliberately divisive.


What is a Yoon anyway? I'm assuming it is a witty, derogatory term for someone who doesn't follow the SNP party line that has been invented by the guy in Bath?

Huntygowk. Only two though.:greengrin