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View Full Version : Lack of development players breaking through....



hibee-boys
28-01-2016, 09:34 PM
After reading about Conor Duthies release it got me thinking about what players we've produced from our youth teams that has been able to break through into the first team squad. Granted he's perhaps a bad example since he came from Hearts however there seems to have been numerous youngsters who've impressed in the development team only then to get released. Can't think of any players within the last few years from our youth teams who has taken the step up into the first team. Was the golden generation a one off or is there a reason for this? Any current youngsters in the development squad who may make it?

Libby Hibby
28-01-2016, 09:36 PM
Cummings took the step up

hibee-boys
28-01-2016, 09:38 PM
Cummings took the step up

Wasn't he signed from THEM though?

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-01-2016, 09:42 PM
How good would a youth team player have to be to break in to the current team and which position would you expect it to be in?

Ozyhibby
28-01-2016, 09:42 PM
The lads who have came through recently looked like they were trying to just get through games and not make any mistakes. Cummings on the other hand attacks each game like he wants to win it and be the star of the show in the process. That's the difference.


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wookie70
28-01-2016, 09:46 PM
It is all that is missing for the Dempster and Stubbs revolution. Everything seems to be in place so hopefully we get some kids through in the years to come. In the mean time Stubbs is filling the gaps with good young players who have a potential sell on. There's nothing like cheering on one of the youth players who has successfully stepped up, not sure Lewis or Hanlon would agree though the way some fans have treated them over the years.

hibee-boys
28-01-2016, 09:47 PM
How good would a youth team player have to be to break in to the current team and which position would you expect it to be in?

It's not so much the fact that they can't break through into this particular first team, granted Stubbs has built a hell of a squad off late, it's the fact that most seem to be released given that there is zero expectation that they'll ever make the grade. This is what is concerning.

lucky
28-01-2016, 09:47 PM
This is not a time for youngsters we need promoted.

H18 SFR
28-01-2016, 09:52 PM
You don't win titles with youngsters...

hibee-boys
28-01-2016, 09:53 PM
This is not a time for youngsters we need promoted.

Yeah totally agree Lucky, but my point was that it would be encouraging to see some of our development squad start to ask questions of Stubbs and challenge the more experienced players. Not knocking Stubbs or Dempster, they've transformed the club but I guess it'll take time to see what impact the change in youth/development set up has had.

scoopyboy
28-01-2016, 09:54 PM
Wasn't he signed from THEM though?

Nope, he was signed from Hutchie Vale.

3pm
28-01-2016, 10:04 PM
There are a couple in the 20's just now who must have a chance.

Smartie
28-01-2016, 10:07 PM
There are a couple in the 20's just now who must have a chance.

I'd be astonished if Scott Martin didn't make it. I've been impressed with him every time I've seen him.

GGTTH07
28-01-2016, 10:10 PM
Scott Martin looks a good player

Michael
28-01-2016, 10:18 PM
This is not a time for youngsters we need promoted.

I'd take a young Riordan or Scott Brown...

Unseen work
28-01-2016, 10:20 PM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan

HUTCHYHIBBY
29-01-2016, 12:51 AM
I'll also add that its not a thread that's needed two days before a major semi final, why not stick to being positive instead? There's lots to be positive about.

Speedy
29-01-2016, 01:30 AM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan

Only 3 of them get a game, one of them wasn't produced by us.

Unseen work
29-01-2016, 02:03 AM
Only 3 of them get a game, one of them wasn't produced by us.

What a negative post. I think it's fair to say all the players on that list have been good squad players at least and if fit have at least been on the bench since they made there break through.

Who are are you referring to that we didn't produce?

If it is Thomson, Forster.or jc we still signed them young and developed them in our younger sides then promoted them into the first team and gave them the platform to play.

E10 Rifle
29-01-2016, 05:11 AM
I'll also add that its not a thread that's needed two days before a major semi final, why not stick to being positive instead? There's lots to be positive about.

Agree, this thread could make all the difference on Saturday

BSEJVT
29-01-2016, 06:23 AM
I think the golden generation raised expectations regarding the number of players we could expect to break through to unrealistic levels.

I am sure I read before Alex Miller saying that bringing 1 or 2 through from an age group was as good as you could expect.

I also think that post Donald & John Park our youth set up was severely lacking, from recruitment to development.

It will take years for the new regime to put that right as unfortunately a lot of players within the system aren't the right ones.

I think you can see that from the numbers released over most of the age groups.

Finally and I have commented on this before, certain sections of our support take great delight in criticizing our home grown players, whom they seem to judge far more harshly than those brought in and wont give them any time to find their feet in the first team.

As has been proven by Hanlon & Stevenson, once a view is developed and promoted by these people it is far harder for the players involved to sustain their breakthrough as the negativity they get must dent their confidence.

It takes years for them to change perceptions and unfortunately some of them aren't strong enough to do so.

By all means come on here and criticize them ( and other players if you must) but we would do an awful lot better if we supported players through the games rather than berating some of them at the first missed tackle or touch,

Zazu62
29-01-2016, 06:39 AM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan

What game was it that gray came off and mcgeouch replaced him at RB when we had dunsmore on the bench.. What's the point if we aren't gonna use the youngsters?

Thecat23
29-01-2016, 06:52 AM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan

Hanlon, Thomson, and Lewis broke through years ago, I think he's meaning lately! Guys like Harris, Handing, Stanton who were all told they could find another club aren't good enough to help us win promotion.

I'm very disappointed in the players coming through and making the step up in recent years. I agree with the list of up and coming guys though. Hopefully a couple make it to the first team.

Thecat23
29-01-2016, 06:58 AM
I think the golden generation raised expectations regarding the number of players we could expect to break through to unrealistic levels.

I am sure I read before Alex Miller saying that bringing 1 or 2 through from an age group was as good as you could expect.

I also think that post Donald & John Park our youth set up was severely lacking, from recruitment to development.

It will take years for the new regime to put that right as unfortunately a lot of players within the system aren't the right ones.

I think you can see that from the numbers released over most of the age groups.

Finally and I have commented on this before, certain sections of our support take great delight in criticizing our home grown players, whom they seem to judge far more harshly than those brought in and wont give them any time to find their feet in the first team.

As has been proven by Hanlon & Stevenson, once a view is developed and promoted by these people it is far harder for the players involved to sustain their breakthrough as the negativity they get must dent their confidence.

It takes years for them to change perceptions and unfortunately some of them aren't strong enough to do so.

By all means come on here and criticize them ( and other players if you must) but we would do an awful lot better if we supported players through the games rather than berating some of them at the first missed tackle or touch,

Very good post, the stick wee Lewis gets from some is baffling. His first touch is one of the best I've seen since Murphy. Good passer of the ball and the boy can defend!

Miller was right as well, only a couple would actually make the grade and we got very lucky with the likes of Brown, Thomsom, Whitty, O'Connor and Riordan.

Scorrie
29-01-2016, 07:12 AM
If the division had more teams in it i.e. 16 or 18, then perhaps more youngsters would break through as there would be less fear of relegation and so more time to give young players a chance

superfurryhibby
29-01-2016, 08:44 AM
I think the golden generation raised expectations regarding the number of players we could expect to break through to unrealistic levels.

I am sure I read before Alex Miller saying that bringing 1 or 2 through from an age group was as good as you could expect.

I also think that post Donald & John Park our youth set up was severely lacking, from recruitment to development.

It will take years for the new regime to put that right as unfortunately a lot of players within the system aren't the right ones.

I think you can see that from the numbers released over most of the age groups.

Finally and I have commented on this before, certain sections of our support take great delight in criticizing our home grown players, whom they seem to judge far more harshly than those brought in and wont give them any time to find their feet in the first team.

As has been proven by Hanlon & Stevenson, once a view is developed and promoted by these people it is far harder for the players involved to sustain their breakthrough as the negativity they get must dent their confidence.

It takes years for them to change perceptions and unfortunately some of them aren't strong enough to do so.

By all means come on here and criticize them ( and other players if you must) but we would do an awful lot better if we supported players through the games rather than berating some of them at the first missed tackle or touch,

If anyone doubts this is a factor check out some of the "supportive" comments on the Handling thread. Full of unnecessary crap about he's not good enough, who gave him a four year contract..blah, blah. People need to grasp that self important prophesising isn't always required. Fair enough in some cases, it is OK to debate the merits of a player. Just not on a bit of news telling us that the guy is approaching the business end of rehabilitation after serious injury. Ask yourself what you would be thinking if you were in DH's shoes and reading the thread. Encouraged?

Brightside
29-01-2016, 08:48 AM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan


Correct - we are doing ok. And lets be happy we are able to bring in better players at the moment.

Brightside
29-01-2016, 08:50 AM
If anyone doubts this is a factor check out some of the "supportive" comments on the Handling thread. Full of unnecessary crap about he's not good enough, who gave him a four year contract..blah, blah. People need to grasp that self important prophesising isn't always required. Fair enough in some cases, it is OK to debate the merits of a player. Just not on a bit of news telling us that the guy is approaching the business end of rehabilitation after serious injury. Ask yourself what you would be thinking if you were in DH's shoes and reading the thread. Encouraged?

Spot on. Our fans don't exactly do a good job of encouraging young players. One mistake and they are slated on forums and from the stand.

easty
29-01-2016, 08:59 AM
If anyone doubts this is a factor check out some of the "supportive" comments on the Handling thread. Full of unnecessary crap about he's not good enough, who gave him a four year contract..blah, blah. People need to grasp that self important prophesising isn't always required. Fair enough in some cases, it is OK to debate the merits of a player. Just not on a bit of news telling us that the guy is approaching the business end of rehabilitation after serious injury. Ask yourself what you would be thinking if you were in DH's shoes and reading the thread. Encouraged?

If a player is that mentally weak, that threads like the Handling one on a fans messageboard are going to affect thier game, then it really doesn't matter what's written, cos with that lack of confidence or a winning mentality they're never going to make it anyway.

I actually think Hibs fans, generally, are more likely to give young players coming through too much credit, too soon, when they break into the team. Look at Harris, Forster and Stanton. We were bigging them up as potential greats after just a few games. The negative comments came after a period where it became obvious they weren't going to be as great as thier first couple of games suggested.

Brooster
29-01-2016, 09:46 AM
Hibs will not develop any player of note as long as the current heads of development/academy are in place. Im convinced of that.

easty
29-01-2016, 09:49 AM
Hibs will not develop any player of note as long as the current heads of development/academy are in place. Im convinced of that.

I've nae idea what the set up is like, what - in your opinion - is the problem with how they do it?

J-C
29-01-2016, 09:57 AM
Ask yourself this question, looking back at all the teams we've had and others in Scotland, just how many players actually come through from the youths and development teams actually make it to the top, I'd say very few.

We were lucky to have the players Mowbray had at the time and this is not always the case but prior to that and since we get the odd one or two who have it in them to make a career out of football at a decent level.

We deemed Wotherspoon and Booth not good enough yet they are plying their trade in the league above us and are regular starters or their teams, unfortunately during their time here we had some horrendous managers and coaches who didn't develop them as they should have, hopefully AS and LD have put this right and brought in coaches that will bring out the best i our younger players.

superfurryhibby
29-01-2016, 10:54 AM
If a player is that mentally weak, that threads like the Handling one on a fans messageboard are going to affect thier game, then it really doesn't matter what's written, cos with that lack of confidence or a winning mentality they're never going to make it anyway.

I actually think Hibs fans, generally, are more likely to give young players coming through too much credit, too soon, when they break into the team. Look at Harris, Forster and Stanton. We were bigging them up as potential greats after just a few games. The negative comments came after a period where it became obvious they weren't going to be as great as thier first couple of games suggested.

I think you're underestimating the confidence factor. No one thrives on negativity.

erin go bragh
29-01-2016, 10:54 AM
The quality of our squad makes it harder for any of our development players to make the step up .

GGTTH

Andy74
29-01-2016, 10:58 AM
Hibs will not develop any player of note as long as the current heads of development/academy are in place. Im convinced of that.

We hadn't been producing players for some time - the current set up we have to wait and see, it will take years.

Eddie May's record at Falkirk is great though is it not, they went from zero to about 20 players at all age groups playing international football in the space of a few years.

I don't care how popular they are or what parents might think of them, it is what will eventually be produced that counts.

Andy74
29-01-2016, 11:02 AM
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/eddie-may-i-don-t-want-to-produce-average-hibees-1-3509276

Good article here

Lancs Harp
29-01-2016, 11:24 AM
Ask yourself this question, looking back at all the teams we've had and others in Scotland, just how many players actually come through from the youths and development teams actually make it to the top, I'd say very few.

We were lucky to have the players Mowbray had at the time and this is not always the case but prior to that and since we get the odd one or two who have it in them to make a career out of football at a decent level.

We deemed Wotherspoon and Booth not good enough yet they are plying their trade in the league above us and are regular starters or their teams, unfortunately during their time here we had some horrendous managers and coaches who didn't develop them as they should have, hopefully AS and LD have put this right and brought in coaches that will bring out the best i our younger players.


I would tend agree with that. It is a question that comes up at virtually every club in England and Scotland "why aren't more of our youngsters breaking through?" Its a simple fact that very few youngsters make it through to their first teams and to be fair far more youngsters have always failed to make the grade than make it for a myriad of reasons. Many youngsters from top flight teams end up at a lower league level and the youngsters from those teams often end up out of the game or going part time. I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with our youth set up infact I would say it is better than most and I would include teams from England in that. There are very few stories in the game like the class of 92 at United.

Brightside
29-01-2016, 11:50 AM
We hadn't been producing players for some time - the current set up we have to wait and see, it will take years.

Eddie May's record at Falkirk is great though is it not, they went from zero to about 20 players at all age groups playing international football in the space of a few years.

I don't care how popular they are or what parents might think of them, it is what will eventually be produced that counts.

Eddie has ruffled a lot of feathers and a lot of parents have not been happy with his approach. Personally I think he's perfect for the role - I only wish he would knock on the head all the u10s and u11s stuff. Concentrate on u13s upwards.

GreenArmy1875
29-01-2016, 01:44 PM
In my opinion players go into pro youth systems far to early! Let boys play and express themselves until the age of 16 then let them go to pro youth clubs. Pro youth from a young age gives them everything far to early and lose that hunger in my opinion.

steviehibsleith
29-01-2016, 03:29 PM
I know what your saying but currently the amount of players we have produced in the squad is frightening:
paul hanlon
lewis Stevenson
jordan forster
sam stanton
kevin Thomson
alex harris
danny handling
jason Cummings

the he next couple of players to come through/already started to come through imo will be:
scott martin
callum crane
dunsmore
lewis allan

Paul H
Lewis S All these three have been first team for years poster means lately
k Thomson

Handling
Harris
Stanton Been loaned out / time is up as of yet none have been deemed good enough for AS
Foster

Cummings 5 years Yam academy Hutchyvale then Hibs first team at 18 Why do people still claim Product of Hibs

ancient hibee
29-01-2016, 03:37 PM
How many underage players released in recent years have made it anywhere else? For players to come through now you would normally expect them to have been with the club for 7/8 years so it's obviously been a long term problem that is hopefully being sorted.I remember Pat Felon saying at an AGM that recruitment of 12 year olds was how you grew the youth system and that ours was hopeless.

Unseen work
29-01-2016, 04:03 PM
Paul H
Lewis S All these three have been first team for years poster means lately
k Thomson

Handling
Harris
Stanton Been loaned out / time is up as of yet none have been deemed good enough for AS
Foster

Cummings 5 years Yam academy Hutchyvale then Hibs first team at 18 Why do people still claim Product of Hibs

Because he got released from hearts at 16? How can you say a team that released a boy at 16 who then went and played for hutchy vale, won a contract at hibs, played for our under 20s for a season then got promoted to the first team where he has now been nurtured to the player he is, is responsible for producing him?

People just dont want to give hibs any credit.

Andy74
29-01-2016, 04:24 PM
Paul H
Lewis S All these three have been first team for years poster means lately
k Thomson

Handling
Harris
Stanton Been loaned out / time is up as of yet none have been deemed good enough for AS
Foster

Cummings 5 years Yam academy Hutchyvale then Hibs first team at 18 Why do people still claim Product of Hibs

Cummings didn't go straight into the first team. He also had to be identified and brought in before he then played for the under 20s or whatever it was then.

He is still a player that came in from our development team.

steviehibsleith
29-01-2016, 04:29 PM
Because he got released from hearts at 16? How can you say a team that released a boy at 16 who then went and played for hutchy vale, won a contract at hibs, played for our under 20s for a season then got promoted to the first team where he has now been nurtured to the player he is, is responsible for producing him?

People just dont want to give hibs any credit.
Tosh he never played for the under 20s for a season ill say again he joined Hibs in June 2013 as a 18 yo and made his fisrt team debut in November v Inverness and made a further 15 appearances that season.
The credit goes to his development with the First team and We will do very well out of it on the field/or if he moves on.

GreenArmy1875
29-01-2016, 04:29 PM
Did Cummings not play for the development team 2? Sure they played in the eastern region league against Spartans and the like then moved to development team 1 and he continued his scoring streak against pro teams?

steviehibsleith
29-01-2016, 04:35 PM
Did Cummings not play for the development team 2? Sure they played in the eastern region league against Spartans and the like then moved to development team 1 and he continued his scoring streak against pro teams?
Yes i agree but IMO joing Hibs at 18 playing 3 months befor moving to the first team isnt really a product of our development academy.