Strict Liabillity. Let's Have Zero Tolerance of Bigotry Now.

[doddsy]

Clubs like Alloa are saying no to Strict Liablity which would have a zero tolerance to the kind of large scale bigoted singing that was clearly heard at Ibrox. Surely to **** the time is right to rid Scottish Football of this curse once and for all. I am all in favour of it. The time is right now for a hardline approach by the SFA to end bigotry. Do it soon. The time is now. **** you Alloa, you re fans don't have to listen to being called ****in *******s or Pxxxxy ****. It can't come quick enough for me. Get rid of these bigots.

[green&left]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...

[doddsy]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...

Just exactly the type of attitude that shames our game. Do you think women and children should have to listen to bigoted chants and hate filled religious taunts, no thank you.

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

I agree, zero tolerance.

My wife and I are having a wee one in the summer and I've been advised that my unborn child will not be going to the football.

Part of me wants to argue but why should any child be subjected to that bike anymore. By not tackling this head on we are not maximising our ability to drum up support.


"A friend of mine once said he liked his women like his parmesan: strong smelling and shaved"

[lord bunberry]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...
And then these folk disappear into the night to stab and kill each other and beat up their wives, all because of religious bigotry.

[Argylehibby]

One of the excuses used in the past was for example Hearts fans buy tickets for the home end at ER, sing some songs that breach the rules and we get done for it. Now though if you're not on the data base you don't get tickets so that surely removes that argument. I'm all for it but a few of our guys who like the smoke bombs would have to mend their ways.

[StevieT]

Just exactly the type of attitude that shames our game. Do you think women and children should have to listen to bigoted chants and hate filled religious taunts, no thank you.

Do you think anyone should need to listen to the bogged chants? (not aimed at you doddsy).NOW is the time for supporters to unite together and petition our clubs. NOW is the time for us to say enough is enough.

[doddsy]

I agree, zero tolerance.

My wife and I are having a wee one in the summer and I've been advised that my unborn child will not be going to the football.

Part of me wants to argue but why should any child be subjected to that bike anymore. By not tackling this head on we are not maximising our ability to drum up support.


"A friend of mine once said he liked his women like his parmesan: strong smelling and shaved"

You are exactly right. Who wants to take their family along to football games with the risk of being subjected to hate filled religious venom. The time is right to clean up the game. Scotland must be one of the only countries in the world openly singing of religious hatred.

[Vini1875]

I would want to know exactly what is meant by bigotry. We almost always think we know, but would be surprised by others interpretation. For example I don't think hun is a bigotted term however the huns seem to think it is.

Who has the list of all the terms we would no longer be able to use?

[doddsy]

Do you think anyone should need to listen to the bogged chants? (not aimed at you doddsy).NOW is the time for supporters to unite together and petition our clubs. NOW is the time for us to say enough is enough.


100%

[doddsy]

I would want to know exactly what is meant by bigotry. We almost always think we know, but would be surprised by others interpretation. For example I don't think hun is a bigotted term however the huns seem to think it is.

Who has the list of all the terms we would no longer be able to use?

it would not take a brain surgeon to work out what is acceptable or not. :flag:

[green&left]

Just exactly the type of attitude that shames our game. Do you think women and children should have to listen to bigoted chants and hate filled religious taunts, no thank you.

Not qualifying for a major national tournament in almost 20 years, our clubs getting pumped in europe left right and centre and our governing body allowing systemic cheating shames our game. A few songs just makes us look daft.

All to little to late. The SPL/SFA are bottling f**** who should've dealt with this 30 years ago. Why the urgency to deal with it now? It's not going to change anything anyway. The billy boys is banned just now and 45k can openly and proudly air it with our authorities turning a blind eye to it. What's to stop them turning a blind eye to it in 5 years time if this liability stuff went through.

Its also going to change nothing with regards to the problem. They'll ban the songs from football stadiums but the government and councils will grand permission for about 200 orange walks this year where tens of thousands can play and ding these dittys til their hearts content.

[green&left]

And then these folk disappear into the night to stab and kill each other and beat up their wives, all because of religious bigotry.

And you think banning the the sash and roll of honour from a football match is going to fix this? While you can still sing these songs in the pubs and social clubs, on the buses and trains at the parades and gigs etc?

I don't trust the SFA in the slightest. Wouldn't trust them to run a bath. They'd probably deal with hearts and their hibees are gay chant before the huns and their stuff.

[doddsy]

Not qualifying for a major national tournament in almost 20 years, our clubs getting pumped in europe left right and centre and our governing body allowing systemic cheating shames our game. A few songs just makes us look daft.

All to little to late. The SPL/SFA are bottling f**** who should've dealt with this 30 years ago. Why the urgency to deal with it now? It's not going to change anything anyway. The billy boys is banned just now and 45k can openly and proudly air it with our authorities turning a blind eye to it. What's to stop them turning a blind eye to it in 5 years time if this liability stuff went through.

Its also going to change nothing with regards to the problem. They'll ban the songs from football stadiums but the government and councils will grand permission for about 200 orange walks this year where tens of thousands can play and ding these dittys til their hearts content.

Strict Liability is the first step in hopefully eradicating the problems within stadiums. The game needs new powers to act. If the police won't wade in which is understandable because it could cause a stampede or worse then the power to dock points or close the doors will get the message to the idiots who sing the venom. I don't get where you are coming from at all.

[SJNB Hibby]

You are exactly right. Who wants to take their family along to football games with the risk of being subjected to hate filled religious venom. The time is right to clean up the game. Scotland must be one of the only countries in the world openly singing of religious hatred.

After many years without a live game, back in 2006 I got to see a few games. Was at the 6-1 win versus Mwell at Fir Park
Directly behind me was a 35-40year old guy, with his5-7year old son. Very mild mannered....until Scott McDonald did something----the string of verbal abuse that he screamed was embarrassing.
It's not JUST the Sectarian abuse, but to pretend there is nothing else offensive is head stuck in the sand-ish
But I did vote 'yes'

[green&left]

Strict Liability is the first step in hopefully eradicating the problems within stadiums. I don't get you at all. The game needs new powers to act. If the police won't wade in which is understandable because it could cause a stampede or worse then the power to dock points or close the doors will get the message to the idiots who sing the venom. I don't get where you are coming from at all.

The polis have the powers under the offensive behaviour of football act. They could act if the wanted too... If they can track casuals/hoolys from a blurry CCTV pic in a train station 50 miles away to bring them to court they could do the same to the bigots who's name and address are likely to be assigned to their seat.

Its too pen ended aswell. A drunken bam who hasn't been to see Hibs in his puff could set of a smoke bomb and we could be liable for it. You're then going to have to have some suit decide which songs are banned or not. Same with flags etc.




Couldn't make it up really. SFA and politicians wanting to eradicat bigotry but only last year rented George square to the orange order for an orange festival :D

[lucky]

Sectarian singing is abhorrent as is all forms of discrimination but not taking your family along to games is not going to shield them from it. As a society we should be demanding from our governments that discrimination is unacceptable. Hiding away lets the bigots win. Time to stand up and say no. Where would Ametica be now if the people of Selma and Martin Luther King Jr had stayed away?

[Eyrie]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?
I'd want Hibs to be in favour.


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...
Or maybe most of us have evolved beyond bigotry?

I'm struggling to see where the problem lies. Issue a warning to the club whose supporters are misbehaving, then a second warning, a fine, a larger fine and then deduct points for each subsequent offence. Won't take long for the majority who are "just joining in" to shut up, and pretty soon they'll be trying to drown out the remaining morons, or stepping out of the way when the police actually do their job rather than ignoring the problem because they don't have 40,000 cells.

[lucky]

The polis have the powers under the offensive behaviour of football act. They could act if the wanted too... If they can track casuals/hoolys from a blurry CCTV pic in a train station 50 miles away to bring them to court they could do the same to the bigots who's name and address are likely to be assigned to their seat.

Its too pen ended aswell. A drunken bam who hasn't been to see Hibs in his puff could set of a smoke bomb and we could be liable for it. You're then going to have to have some suit decide which songs are banned or not. Same with flags etc.




Couldn't make it up really. SFA and politicians wanting to eradicat bigotry but only last year rented George square to the orange order for an orange festival :D

But we live in a society where alternative views can be heard even if we disagree with them. There a difference between the OO parades and bigoted singing. Sadly the followers of one often participate in the other

[doddsy]

Here's the thing. The ****bags who start the sectarian nonsense would probably melt away from football if there was a Zero Tolerance approach as the decent fans would have cause to shout and point them out if they thought their team was to be docked points or really punished for the venom. The ****bags who taint our game are probably induced to it because of the chance to sing the abusive songs. There have been some cracking atmospheres at games which do not have the poisonous chanting. We don't need it, we don't want it and we should'nt have to tolerate it either

[Nakedmanoncrack]

The Orange Order isn't illegal, the Sash isn't illegal, I don't like either of them, but it's ridiculous to suggest they can simply be banned.

[esjorto]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...

Thankful I live in Canada now. I can attend a Hockey game here between two mid-table teams and the atmosphere is electric. Noise all game long, yet nothing abusive to the opposing players or fans( who are NOT segregated.) Same at Football and Basketball.
What I can hear from games in Scotland can be disgusting and no, what other fans do may be worse, but that makes no-one better than them.
Also, any Hibs "fan" who hurls any kind of abuse at a Hibs player is, by extension, abusing the Club, me, you and any kids or women who hear it.
Grow up and be a real man who can shout, sing etc. without this abusiveness. It will add to the gates within a short period of time.
Rant finished.

[PatHead]

Show racism the Red Card days have been effective in highlighting how racist abuse is not acceptable.

A show Bigotry the Red Card day should be introduced at all grounds. Would be but a small step but at least a start and would actually acknowledge the problem exists. I don't believe clubs have even acknowledged the problem other than blaming a minority.

[hibbysam]

Must admit, I have just heard the Alloa chairmans comments on this and other views on Sky Sports News about the meeting today, no wonder our game is so backward! Cannot believe the stuff he was coming out with!

[Smartie]

I'd love to see religious bigotry stamped out.

You can have an edgy atmosphere and a big rivalry without having to hate the other lot for "practicing" a slightly different form of Christianity to your own.

The bickering and whataboutery over what is and isn't a bigoted song would be comical but the bottom line is that if you want the other lot to stop singing the stuff that offends you might have to not sings songs that you don't find offensive yourself in return.

It would be great to get fans self-policing, so that fans are listening out for and pulling up fans within their own support when they step out of line.

[GreenOnions]

I'm not in favour of any rule changes in this area at all and certainly no legislation. In fact - the only legislative change I'd make is to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill.

We are seeing more and more demands these days to ban and censor things. We should be very careful with this - and not only because anything that erodes freedom of speech needs to have an incontrovertible rationale. Also because bans and censorship are more likely to be grand gestures that make us think we're dealing with a problem than to be steps that move us forwards.

I am reminded of Frankie Boyle's comment which suggested something like "you can't bomb ideas". Let's stop picking all the "low-hanging fruit" - standing at the rear of the battle making high level pronouncements and theoretical minor amendments that have no practical effect. The police don't have the manpower to take action in any significant meaningful way at football grounds anyway.

If we really want to deal with sectarianism we have to grasp some rather more tricky jaggy plants then we're talking about here.

[Smartie]

I'm not in favour of any rule changes in this area at all and certainly no legislation. In fact - the only legislative change I'd make is to repeal the Offensive Behaviour at Football Bill.

We are seeing more and more demands these days to ban and censor things. We should be very careful with this - and not only because anything that erodes freedom of speech needs to have an incontrovertible rationale. Also because bans and censorship are more likely to be grand gestures that make us think we're dealing with a problem than to be steps that move us forwards.

I am reminded of Frankie Boyle's comment which suggested something like "you can't bomb ideas". Let's stop picking all the "low-hanging fruit" - standing at the rear of the battle making high level pronouncements and theoretical minor amendments that have no practical effect. The police don't have the manpower to take action in any significant meaningful way at football grounds anyway.

If we really want to deal with sectarianism we have to grasp some rather more tricky jaggy plants then we're talking about here.

Aye but we have to start somewhere though.

Why not here?

[GreenOnions]

Aye but we have to start somewhere though.

Why not here?

Much better for individual clubs to get their own supporters involved in devising a fans' code for their own stadium. The clubs should then have the right to empower and insist that stewards and police enforce the code within the stadium.

If The Rangers are happy for all the younger TRFC fans attending matches at Ibrox to hear the sort of bile that they do regularly then that's a matter for them. As a Hibernian supporter I'd like us to be able to be much stronger in the policing of these things at Easter Road so that we generate an exciting but family friendly atmosphere at our ground. I think we, as fans, should be involved in this too.

If certain clubs bring too many supporters to be effectively policed in this way and they refuse to cooperate with attempts to enforce stadium rules then clubs should have the right to take additional steps such as reducing or eliminating away allocations, additional segregation for away fans etc.

[Thecat23]

The Orange Order isn't illegal, the Sash isn't illegal, I don't like either of them, but it's ridiculous to suggest they can simply be banned.

Sadly true, but they are so far past their sell by date it's crazy it's still allowed this day and age.

[JJP]

Even if this was voted in I don't trust the people in charge of Scottish Football to punish the Glasgow 2. You can bet that any other club that steps out of line would be hammered and made an example of though.

[silverhibee]

Even if this was voted in I don't trust the people in charge of Scottish Football to punish the Glasgow 2. You can bet that any other club that steps out of line would be hammered and made an example of though.

This.

The Derby cup game has the potential for a bit aggro and dodgy singing, watch the SPFL/SFA & compliance officer come down heavy on any nasty behaviour in that game and make us as the bad example of Scottish football and heavily punish us or them for a flare being set of or the tramps having a wee sing song to themselves.

It will happen to one club, but the bigots from the West can relax as it won't be them, "doing everything they can to stamp this behaviour out" :rolleyes: is all you need to say and hey presto you are untouchable, any other club in Scotland acting like they do and they will be hung out to dry by the authorities running our game.

Scotland's shame is acceptable, simple as that. Very sad.

The camera recognition pish is just a cop out.

[monktonharp]

Sadly true, but they are so far past their sell by date it's crazy it's still allowed this day and age.:agree: but, you can be arrested for dropping a fag end, or a sweetie paper, you know:wink:

[Iggy Pope]

The Orange Order isn't illegal, the Sash isn't illegal, I don't like either of them, but it's ridiculous to suggest they can simply be banned.

Culture should dictate that neither is ever made illegal or banned.

What should, indeed be illegal though is the propensity of the individual or mob to scream 'Fenian *******' in the face of someone who:

a) couldn't give a **** either way
or
b) gives such a **** that he wants to knife the perpetrator....

[givescotlandfreedom]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...

i bet people played down banana chucking and racist chanting equally flippantly too back in the day.

[marinello59]

Handing the current footballing authorities in this country the power to punish clubs for what they deem unacceptable worries me. The legislation currently exists to deal with the problems that exist at(mainly) just two clubs. Bring this in and the unintended consequences for the rest of us could prove costly. If the big two got punished under this the pressure to hammer others for any misdemeanour, however minor, would be intense.

[mjhibby]

I can't believe this needs to discussed. In any civilised society it is totally unacceptable and it's only that it is practised by the two biggest clubs in our little country that it is not dealt with. It's a massive stain on the character of Scotland and until it stops I will not take my son to see hertz or the bigot Bros. And please let's not think it's okay to be a 90 minute bigot. It's no more acceptable than a 90 min racist. If uefa can do zero tolerance then surely to God we can. I'd love to think it can be eradicated but it is so ingrained in certain areas of Scotland I very much doubt it will.

[Beefster]

Strict liability would see Hibs punished every time some twat at ER jumped on the pitch, threw a coin, lit a flare, shouted something bigoted etc. This isn't just about sectarian singing.

[BH Hibs]

Strict liability would see Hibs punished every time some twat at ER jumped on the pitch, threw a coin, lit a flare, shouted something bigoted etc. This isn't just about sectarian singing.

True and as bad as the songs at Ibrox were surely the throwing of cups of pish,coins and anything else they could muster is worse and can be dealt with under existing laws. I don't see anything changing regards that unfortunately.

[Lucius Apuleius]

Commentator said that nearly every senior team had fans charged under the legislation. Would be interesting to see the figures for each team.

[Weststandwanab]

I can't believe this needs to discussed. In any civilised society it is totally unacceptable and it's only that it is practised by the two biggest clubs in our little country that it is not dealt with. It's a massive stain on the character of Scotland and until it stops I will not take my son to see hertz or the bigot Bros. And please let's not think it's okay to be a 90 minute bigot. It's no more acceptable than a 90 min racist. If uefa can do zero tolerance then surely to God we can. I'd love to think it can be eradicated but it is so ingrained in certain areas of Scotland I very much doubt it will.

Well said.

[Carheenlea]

Strict liability would see Hibs punished every time some twat at ER jumped on the pitch, threw a coin, lit a flare, shouted something bigoted etc. This isn't just about sectarian singing.

I don't think we would have too much to worry about in that regard. There was a spate of smoke canister usage for a while, but strong messages from the club to those using them and pressure to desist from fellow fans has helped to eradicate it from ER and away from home. Fan pressure to desist from chants like the Skacel refugee has seen the song pretty much disappear. There is an element of self policing and Strict Liability would see perpetrators under more pressure from fans to avoid behaviour that could get Hibs into trouble.
I don't see why our club would be against it, and if they are, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

[H18S NX]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become........You're kidding,right?

[doddsy]

I don't think we would have too much to worry about in that regard. There was a spate of smoke canister usage for a while, but strong messages from the club to those using them and pressure to desist from fellow fans has helped to eradicate it from ER and away from home. Fan pressure to desist from chants like the Skacel refugee has seen the song pretty much disappear. There is an element of self policing and Strict Liability would see perpetrators under more pressure from fans to avoid behaviour that could get Hibs into trouble.
I don't see why our club would be against it, and if they are, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

I do hope the underlying cause of not adopting zero tolerance against the mindless bigots is not the Bigot Pound. I think more families would attend in place of the bigots if they thought the religious bile was eradicated from the Scottish game.

[monarch]

Perhaps going slightly off topic from fans' behaviour but I've always thought that a form of bigotry in Scottish football exists in team colours.
For instance every team has 2, and in a number of cases even 3 strips, with many alternative strips being a horrible hotchpotch of (nearly) every colour under the sun. However one colour is noticeably it's absence in nearly all cases. With the obvious exceptions of Hibs and Celtic, plus a Dundee United away strip of a few seasons ago no other senior Scottish team as far as I'm aware have ever included green.
Reluctantly for once (!) I could perhaps excuse Hearts and Sevco as I could understand them not wanting to include the colours of your derby rivals but what could possibly prevent teams like Airdrie, Kilmarnock, Falkirk or Cowdenbeath to include a hint of green in their away strips ? :wink:

[cabbageandribs1875]

well here is just one good reason for NOT having strict liability

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35359166

A number of smoke bombs were thrown onto the field marring Forfar'sabandoned Scottish Cup replay against Linlithgow Rose (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35289266) on Tuesday night.

Linlithgow Rose manager David McGlynn said the club would try to track down those responsible for throwing the smoke bombs, while club president Les Donaldson attempted to challenge the perpetrators at Station Park.
"It's just shocking to think that a club who has tried so hard to go forward, to make facilities so good for every person who comes along to eventually be brought down by a bunch of hooligans who have no interest whatsoever in watching football, all they were there for was causing trouble," Donaldson told BBC Radio Scotland on Wednesday.


all it would take is one idiotic imbecile

[blackpoolhibs]

well here is just one good reason for NOT having strict liability

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35359166

A number of smoke bombs were thrown onto the field marring Forfar'sabandoned Scottish Cup replay against Linlithgow Rose (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35289266) on Tuesday night.

Linlithgow Rose manager David McGlynn said the club would try to track down those responsible for throwing the smoke bombs, while club president Les Donaldson attempted to challenge the perpetrators at Station Park.
"It's just shocking to think that a club who has tried so hard to go forward, to make facilities so good for every person who comes along to eventually be brought down by a bunch of hooligans who have no interest whatsoever in watching football, all they were there for was causing trouble," Donaldson told BBC Radio Scotland on Wednesday.


all it would take is one idiotic imbecile

Is that not the case for every association who do have the strict liability law? I cant see your point at all, you need the law in so that EVERYONE knows the punishment should you cross that line.

Yes a few clubs might fall foul of it in the beginning, but you sure as hell know if you keep doing it the punishments will rack up.

Do nothing and the same things will keep happening.

[green day]

Is that not the case for every association who do have the strict liability law? I cant see your point at all, you need the law in so that EVERYONE knows the punishment should you cross that line.

Yes a few clubs might fall foul of it in the beginning, but you sure as hell know if you keep doing it the punishments will rack up.

Do nothing and the same things will keep happening.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Carheenlea]

Is that not the case for every association who do have the strict liability law? I cant see your point at all, you need the law in so that EVERYONE knows the punishment should you cross that line.

Yes a few clubs might fall foul of it in the beginning, but you sure as hell know if you keep doing it the punishments will rack up.

Do nothing and the same things will keep happening.

I agree :agree:

I think the reduction in incidents that have been deemed unacceptable is testament to the statements from Hibs, and greater understanding in the support of how the club could recieve punishment for those actions.

[BH Hibs]

well here is just one good reason for NOT having strict liability

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35359166

A number of smoke bombs were thrown onto the field marring Forfar'sabandoned Scottish Cup replay against Linlithgow Rose (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35289266) on Tuesday night.

Linlithgow Rose manager David McGlynn said the club would try to track down those responsible for throwing the smoke bombs, while club president Les Donaldson attempted to challenge the perpetrators at Station Park.
"It's just shocking to think that a club who has tried so hard to go forward, to make facilities so good for every person who comes along to eventually be brought down by a bunch of hooligans who have no interest whatsoever in watching football, all they were there for was causing trouble," Donaldson told BBC Radio Scotland on Wednesday.


all it would take is one idiotic imbecile

Be interesting to see if Linlithgow and Celtic are dealt with equally.

[JimBHibees]

Is that not the case for every association who do have the strict liability law? I cant see your point at all, you need the law in so that EVERYONE knows the punishment should you cross that line.

Yes a few clubs might fall foul of it in the beginning, but you sure as hell know if you keep doing it the punishments will rack up.

Do nothing and the same things will keep happening.

Absolutely agree. The comments around this last night was listening to Sportsound were shameful IMO with the Alloa guy the mouthpiece to protect the status quo. The face recognition software is as Tom English indicated a smokescreen. They also had Derek Ferguson on the show coming out with the same nonsense about what happens if other fans infiltrate. I dont think you would need to be Sherlock Holmes to quickly work out if that were the case. I have heard others including Preston coming out with this stuff before about fans self policing and personally think he was probably primed to say what he did. The only way to address it is by confronting it and getting all to work towards it. You have to assume the other clubs have been promised some benefit. The one time this archaic nonsense was stopped was when UEFA started fining mainly Rangers for it, you couldnt then get a statement from that club out quicker condeming fans and hey presto the songs stopped. It is a joke in this day and age this junk hasnt been stopped at football and all clubs need to have a long hard look at themselves as it is an absolute abdication of responsibility.

[HappyHanlon]

Clubs like Alloa are saying no to Strict Liablity which would have a zero tolerance to the kind of large scale bigoted singing that was clearly heard at Ibrox. Surely to **** the time is right to rid Scottish Football of this curse once and for all. I am all in favour of it. The time is right now for a hardline approach by the SFA to end bigotry. Do it soon. The time is now. **** you Alloa, you re fans don't have to listen to being called ****in *******s or Pxxxxy ****. It can't come quick enough for me. Get rid of these bigots.

Alloa is riddled with huns.

Essentially a breeding ground.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I would fully support such a move, but such is the power of the two bigot brothers in Glasgow, it won't happen. UEFA have shown the right approach: both Old Firm clubs have been charged with sectarian behaviour, and rightly so, but the Scottish authorities are total cowards at best, or just don't care at worst. We should have zero tolerance: life bans, stadium closures, points docked, ejection from cup competitions. The time to tackle the issue properly is long overdue.

[Geo_1875]

Absolutely agree. The comments around this last night was listening to Sportsound were shameful IMO with the Alloa guy the mouthpiece to protect the status quo. The face recognition software is as Tom English indicated a smokescreen. They also had Derek Ferguson on the show coming out with the same nonsense about what happens if other fans infiltrate. I dont think you would need to be Sherlock Holmes to quickly work out if that were the case. I have heard others including Preston coming out with this stuff before about fans self policing and personally think he was probably primed to say what he did. The only way to address it is by confronting it and getting all to work towards it. You have to assume the other clubs have been promised some benefit. The one time this archaic nonsense was stopped was when UEFA started fining mainly Rangers for it, you couldnt then get a statement from that club out quicker condeming fans and hey presto the songs stopped. It is a joke in this day and age this junk hasnt been stopped at football and all clubs need to have a long hard look at themselves as it is an absolute abdication of responsibility.

But The Rangers have never played in Europe.

This new mob better get their act together before they do qualify or EUFA will be on their backs.

[proud_and_green]

Thankful I live in Canada now. I can attend a Hockey game here between two mid-table teams and the atmosphere is electric. Noise all game long, yet nothing abusive to the opposing players or fans( who are NOT segregated.) Same at Football and Basketball.
What I can hear from games in Scotland can be disgusting and no, what other fans do may be worse, but that makes no-one better than them.
Also, any Hibs "fan" who hurls any kind of abuse at a Hibs player is, by extension, abusing the Club, me, you and any kids or women who hear it.
Grow up and be a real man who can shout, sing etc. without this abusiveness. It will add to the gates within a short period of time.
Rant finished.

Well said!

[dangermouse]

Much better for individual clubs to get their own supporters involved in devising a fans' code for their own stadium. The clubs should then have the right to empower and insist that stewards and police enforce the code within the stadium.

If The Rangers are happy for all the younger TRFC fans attending matches at Ibrox to hear the sort of bile that they do regularly then that's a matter for them. As a Hibernian supporter I'd like us to be able to be much stronger in the policing of these things at Easter Road so that we generate an exciting but family friendly atmosphere at our ground. I think we, as fans, should be involved in this too.

If certain clubs bring too many supporters to be effectively policed in this way and they refuse to cooperate with attempts to enforce stadium rules then clubs should have the right to take additional steps such as reducing or eliminating away allocations, additional segregation for away fans etc.

That sounds well worth investigating.

[jacomo]

One of the excuses used in the past was for example Hearts fans buy tickets for the home end at ER, sing some songs that breach the rules and we get done for it. Now though if you're not on the data base you don't get tickets so that surely removes that argument. I'm all for it but a few of our guys who like the smoke bombs would have to mend their ways.

Are smoke bombs bigoted now?

[linlithgowhibbie]

Be interesting to see if Linlithgow and Celtic are dealt with equally.



I hope so as that means the Rose won't be punished!!!!

[NYHibby]

I don't think we would have too much to worry about in that regard. There was a spate of smoke canister usage for a while, but strong messages from the club to those using them and pressure to desist from fellow fans has helped to eradicate it from ER and away from home. Fan pressure to desist from chants like the Skacel refugee has seen the song pretty much disappear. There is an element of self policing and Strict Liability would see perpetrators under more pressure from fans to avoid behaviour that could get Hibs into trouble.
I don't see why our club would be against it, and if they are, I'd be interested to hear their reasoning.

I think you're giving us a little too much credit. I'd say that the refugee song died out because he no longer plays for them. If he was to make an appearance at the cup game, say at halftime, I'd bet on some idiot to start singing it.

[marinello59]

I think you're giving us a little too much credit. I'd say that the refugee song died out because he no longer plays for them. If he was to make an appearance at the cup game, say at halftime, I'd bet on some idiot to start singing it.

I'd agree, somebody would. This is where we get a problem. There were a large number of posters on here who did not consider the Skacel song racist and would justify singing it as just being banter. The authorities certainly would consider it racist and if strict liability had existed then Hibs would have been in trouble.
How about singing 'Go home you Huns.'? That would now be considered bigoted by the authorities. Wrongly in my opinion but that wouldn't matter, sanctions would be applied. Giving that sort of power to the current footballing authorities in this country just seems foolhardy to me.

[BH Hibs]

I hope so as that means the Rose won't be punished!!!!

Police managed to make arrests and charge the culprits last night though. I don't think they did at Stranraer or at Ibrox for the missiles being thrown, or to the best of my knowledge at the Morton game at Ibrox where a bottle was thrown. And just in case I missed it was any action taken after the play off match where our players were pelted when trying to take a corner. I guess the point I'm making is there are already procedures in place for dealing with this but the authorities don't act. I'm all for strict liability and definitely zero tolerance but I don't think it would make any difference unless UEFA got involved and started fining the SFA

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'd agree, somebody would. This is where we get a problem. There were a large number of posters on here who did not consider the Skacel song racist and would justify singing it as just being banter. The authorities certainly would consider it racist and if strict liability had existed then Hibs would have been in trouble.
How about singing 'Go home you Huns.'? That would now be considered bigoted by the authorities. Wrongly in my opinion but that wouldn't matter, sanctions would be applied. Giving that sort of power to the current footballing authorities in this country just seems foolhardy to me.

Skacel song is one hundred per cent racist and unacceptable, but 'Go Home You Huns' one hundred per cent is not. Huns means Rangers fan of any faith, not Protestant. The majority of fans who sing it at games all around Scotland would probably describe themselves as Protestant. But you're right, Rangers fans would probably complain it is sectarian; their complaining about bigotry being the ultimate irony.

[marinello59]

Skacel song is one hundred per cent racist and unacceptable, but 'Go Home You Huns' one hundred per cent is not. Huns means Rangers fan of any faith, not Protestant. The majority of fans who sing it at games all around Scotland would probably describe themselves as Protestant. But you're right, Rangers fans would probably complain it is sectarian; their complaining about bigotry being the ultimate irony.

I agree, the Skacel song is racist and we would have deserved punishment. 'Go home you Huns' would ridiculously be considered just as bad. Strict liability would be a minefield.

[WhileTheChief..]

Do we know how our own club voted before going off our nuts at Alloa etc?


Its all a lot of sh*** anyway. A few fenian ******* chants from huns, some flares from celtic and everyone's going off their nuts. What a sensitive little bunch we've become...

I agree with you fully.

There's an argument to let them sing whatever they want. If the only sectarian abuse in the country is limited to a few thousand fans every couple of weeks then I say bravo, we have moved on considerably in the last few decades.

Strict liability is a non starter for too many reasons to go into here. It will never happen and rightly so.

[Argylehibby]

Are smoke bombs bigoted now?

LOL ok it was slightly off the OP's topic but the strict liability rules won't just apply to the singers. Smoke bombs will be on the naughty list.

[Onion]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hibernian/1339805-spfl-to-investigate-unacceptable-conduct-at-ibrox-and-tynecastle/?

Sevco have been "assisting the Police" for the last week, so maybe just give them a call and ask how they're getting on. Take all of 2 mins.

[Smartie]

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/hibernian/1339805-spfl-to-investigate-unacceptable-conduct-at-ibrox-and-tynecastle/?

Sevco have been "assisting the Police" for the last week, so maybe just give them a call and ask how they're getting on. Take all of 2 mins.

I suspect Rangers helping the police went a bit like this………..

Police - "So we hear there were problems at the recent Rangers v Hibs game. Do you have anything that may help us with our enquiries?"
Rangers - "Aye. It wis them" (Points to away support area)
Police - "Thank you very much for your assistance. We'll do what we can".

[doddsy]

I agree with you fully.

There's an argument to let them sing whatever they want. If the only sectarian abuse in the country is limited to a few thousand fans every couple of weeks then I say bravo, we have moved on considerably in the last few decades.

Strict liability is a non starter for too many reasons to go into here. It will never happen and rightly so.


:grr: There should be no Sectarian abuse whatsoever, what planet are you on. Any sectarianism should be hammered. Just go along, cheer on your team and forget about turning up full of religious hatred. Or any other hatred, just go and enjoy.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Lumping smoke bombs in with sectarian singing shouldn't happen. One, even two or three idiots smuggling in smoke bombs is very different to 50,000 folk singing. Before recent derbies fans were searched and police cordoned off entire streets with sniffer dogs, yet a smoke bomb still got into the stadium. What more can the club do? It was 1 person who sneaked it in. 50,000 continue to sing banned songs and Rangers barely even condemn them. They mutter about it being a minority and that's it. Different issues that should be kept seperate

[silverhibee]

Lumping smoke bombs in with sectarian singing shouldn't happen. One, even two or three idiots smuggling in smoke bombs is very different to 50,000 folk singing. Before recent derbies fans were searched and police cordoned off entire streets with sniffer dogs, yet a smoke bomb still got into the stadium. What more can the club do? It was 1 person who sneaked it in. 50,000 continue to sing banned songs and Rangers barely even condemn them. They mutter about it being a minority and that's it. Different issues that should be kept seperate

:applause:

[Islington Hibs]

It is easy to say just ban but where would it stop. 'We hate Glasgow Rangers, we hate Celtic to, we hate HMFC ....' sounds a bit like a hate crime to me, sexual comments on previous (if offensive) owner of HMFC, or a song about In your Gorgie slums.' all could be viewed as offensive.

If we are not careful matches will become pretty quiet affairs. Personally I find individual abuse much worse than songs, many of which, on both sides of the divide, could be classified as cultural (neither are my bag to be clear). Good atmosphere and passion yes, individual abuse, of what ever kind, directed at out players or the opponents no.

[hibs0666]

Lumping smoke bombs in with sectarian singing shouldn't happen. One, even two or three idiots smuggling in smoke bombs is very different to 50,000 folk singing. Before recent derbies fans were searched and police cordoned off entire streets with sniffer dogs, yet a smoke bomb still got into the stadium. What more can the club do? It was 1 person who sneaked it in. 50,000 continue to sing banned songs and Rangers barely even condemn them. They mutter about it being a minority and that's it. Different issues that should be kept seperate

Yup - smoke bombs can hurt people whereas singing songs is just repugnant.

[Smartie]

Yup - smoke bombs can hurt people whereas singing songs is just repugnant.

Singing certain songs can create a nasty type of atmosphere that can easily lead to violence.

Ask anyone who works in A+E after an Old Firm game - just a game of football with some singing of songs but it doesn't half lead to an unacceptable level of violence.

[Smartie]

Lumping smoke bombs in with sectarian singing shouldn't happen. One, even two or three idiots smuggling in smoke bombs is very different to 50,000 folk singing. Before recent derbies fans were searched and police cordoned off entire streets with sniffer dogs, yet a smoke bomb still got into the stadium. What more can the club do? It was 1 person who sneaked it in. 50,000 continue to sing banned songs and Rangers barely even condemn them. They mutter about it being a minority and that's it. Different issues that should be kept seperate

Nail on head.

[hibs0666]

Singing certain songs can create a nasty type of atmosphere that can easily lead to violence.

Ask anyone who works in A+E after an Old Firm game - just a game of football with some singing of songs but it doesn't half lead to an unacceptable level of violence.

Aye but it is the physical violence that hurts people not bampots singing radge songs.

If you were to ask people in A&E they will tell you unequivocally that bevvy is the common denominator behind the overwhelming proportion of physical attacks after an old firm game. If you want to reduce violence then you'll need to stop the crowd and the wider old firm population from getting near-comatose - sectarian singing is not where we should be focussing our efforts if it's violence that we want to sort out.

[Phil MaGlass]

Some of the comments on here are just too laughable to be true, folk think alcohol is more to blame than sectarianism, sectarianism is rife in Scotland, its not only in the stadiums its also in the homes and schools, its a big problem. Giving them a podium by letting them sing and peddle their sectarian pish inside our stadiums only gives them a bloody green light to escalate. The fact that The Rangers and ra Sellik have not been hammered more by the police and SFA is way wrong, its just too unbelievable to be true.
These folk are and have peddling and brain washing their kids with this nonsense for decades now and some on here seem to think its acceptable for them to sing their nonsense at the game. WTF, the year is 2016 not bloody 1690. Its about time Scotland (polis, Government, footballing bodies, clubs) grew a pair, enough is enough.
Start fining, point deduction, games behind closed doors, threat of relegation and actually arresting some of these morons.
In this day and age it is just not acceptable and anyone on here who thinks it is needs to take a long look in a mirror.

Oh and while were on the subject, my club in The Hague are about to get hammered for monkey chants during the last game v Ajax, we will be expecting a hefty fine and maybe even a point deduction.
Monkey chants, when will it end. :dunno:

[marinello59]

Lumping smoke bombs in with sectarian singing shouldn't happen. One, even two or three idiots smuggling in smoke bombs is very different to 50,000 folk singing. Before recent derbies fans were searched and police cordoned off entire streets with sniffer dogs, yet a smoke bomb still got into the stadium. What more can the club do? It was 1 person who sneaked it in. 50,000 continue to sing banned songs and Rangers barely even condemn them. They mutter about it being a minority and that's it. Different issues that should be kept seperate

Selective strict liability? Another post that demonstrates why this idea will not work.

[hibs0666]

Some of the comments on here are just too laughable to be true, folk think alcohol is more to blame than sectarianism, sectarianism is rife in Scotland, its not only in the stadiums its also in the homes and schools, its a big problem. Giving them a podium by letting them sing and peddle their sectarian pish inside our stadiums only gives them a bloody green light to escalate. The fact that The Rangers and ra Sellik have not been hammered more by the police and SFA is way wrong, its just too unbelievable to be true.
These folk are and have peddling and brain washing their kids with this nonsense for decades now and some on here seem to think its acceptable for them to sing their nonsense at the game. WTF, the year is 2016 not bloody 1690. Its about time Scotland (polis, Government, footballing bodies, clubs) grew a pair, enough is enough.
Start fining, point deduction, games behind closed doors, threat of relegation and actually arresting some of these morons.
In this day and age it is just not acceptable and anyone on here who thinks it is needs to take a long look in a mirror.

Oh and while were on the subject, my club in The Hague are about to get hammered for monkey chants during the last game v Ajax, we will be expecting a hefty fine and maybe even a point deduction.
Monkey chants, when will it end. :dunno:

Are you telling me - seriously - that sectarian singing at an old firm game is a greater cause of violence than over-consumption of bevvy?

Let's get some facts about alcohol on the table here.


There were 1,152 alcohol-related deaths in 2014 (where alcohol was the underlying cause of death)
There were 35,059 alcohol-related hospital stays in 2014/15 - 91% resulted from an emergency admission
94,630 alcohol-related primary care consultations by 48,420 patients in 2012/13
In 6 out of 10 cases (59%) of violent crime, the victim said the offender was under the influence of alcohol
In the past 10 years, half of those accused of murder were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs at the time of the murder
Two thirds of young offenders were drunk at the time of their offence.


So there you are - that's what alcohol abuse costs Scotland. Do you really think that sectarianism causes anything like a thousand deaths a year? 35,000 hospital stays? Is a factor in more than 60% of violent crime?

These outcomes will only be further heightened during an old firm game. It is laughable to suggest that sectarianism causes anything like the level of trouble associated with the bevvy.

[doddsy]

Are you telling me - seriously - that sectarian singing at an old firm game is a greater cause of violence than over-consumption of bevvy?

Let's get some facts about alcohol on the table here.


There were 1,152 alcohol-related deaths in 2014 (where alcohol was the underlying cause of death)
There were 35,059 alcohol-related hospital stays in 2014/15 - 91% resulted from an emergency admission
94,630 alcohol-related primary care consultations by 48,420 patients in 2012/13
In 6 out of 10 cases (59%) of violent crime, the victim said the offender was under the influence of alcohol
In the past 10 years, half of those accused of murder were under the influence of alcohol and/or drugs at the time of the murder
Two thirds of young offenders were drunk at the time of their offence.


So there you are - that's what alcohol abuse costs Scotland. Do you really think that sectarianism causes anything like a thousand deaths a year? 35,000 hospital stays? Is a factor in more than 60% of violent crime?

These outcomes will only be further heightened during an old firm game. It is laughable to suggest that sectarianism causes anything like the level of trouble associated with the bevvy.

Sectarianism has no place in Scottish Football or should in other Sporting Arena. If the authorities won't act then one idea may be the next time we are called dirty Fenians at Ibrox is to raise a Class Action suing Rangers for allowing such sectarian abuse to be chanted en masse. Something must be done about it. I hope that Zero Tolerance is seriously considered as I do get offended at being subjected to that vile sectarian abuse. I'm not a Catholic but love the Hibees mostly because I grew up a couple of miles from the ground. Why should I put up with being called a dirty fenian. It just should'nt happen.

[WhileTheChief..]

Sectarianism has no place in Scottish Football or should in other Sporting Arena. If the authorities won't act then one idea may be the next time I or others are called a dirty Fenian at Ibrox is to raise a Class Action suing Rangers for allowing such sectarian abuse to be chanted en masse. Something must be done about it. I hope to goodness that Zero Tolerance is seriously considered as I am deeply offended at being subjected to that vile sectarian abuse.


Abuse? Really? Its a song with some nasty words in it FFS.

Read the post above yours again - that's real abuse.

Your posts appear to be more about your hatred for Old Firms fans than sectarianism.

If anyone works for a large employer in Edinburgh - NHS / Royal Mail / RBS / Sc Widows / Standard Life / Council etc - you will work beside numerous old firm fans. I know i do.

They are all decent hard working folks that enjoy the football the same as us on here. Not one of them fits the descriptions I'm reading on here about them. I don't believe for one second that they are going home after the football and 'stabbing their wives' as one poster on here said!

Some of what is being said on numerous threads on here recently is way worse than the songs they sing. How about we look at ourselves first? We even have a thread asking who the most hated team in Scotland is.

Is it really necessary? I look at these cubs as our rivals, nothing more. I don't hate any of them but did vote for Ross Co in that poll, couldn't help it :wink:

We've also had people saying Orange marches etc should be banned as there is no place for it in modern society. I kinda feel the same about 50000 people going to see the Pope give mass every Saturday or millions of muslims participating in the Hajj each year. I don't expect or want any of that to be banned though, why should I?

People are different and have different beliefs however absurd or distasteful we may find them. As there is a religious tint to this discussion how about we remember things like tolerance and forgiveness? Or does that not apply to rival football fans?

Tin hat is clearly firmly on as I appreciate I am in a minority of 1, or maybe 2!

[Carheenlea]

Unless I picked it wrong, listening to Leeann Dempster talking about this on Sportsound earlier this week it sounded like she was edging towards the strict liability camp.

[doddsy]

Abuse? Really? Its a song with some nasty words in it FFS.

Read the post above yours again - that's real abuse.

Your posts appear to be more about your hatred for Old Firms fans than sectarianism.

If anyone works for a large employer in Edinburgh - NHS / Royal Mail / RBS / Sc Widows / Standard Life / Council etc - you will work beside numerous old firm fans. I know i do.

They are all decent hard working folks that enjoy the football the same as us on here. Not one of them fits the descriptions I'm reading on here about them. I don't believe for one second that they are going home after the football and 'stabbing their wives' as one poster on here said!

Some of what is being said on numerous threads on here recently is way worse than the songs they sing. How about we look at ourselves first? We even have a thread asking who the most hated team in Scotland is.

Is it really necessary? I look at these cubs as our rivals, nothing more. I don't hate any of them but did vote for Ross Co in that poll, couldn't help it :wink:

We've also had people saying Orange marches etc should be banned as there is no place for it in modern society. I kinda feel the same about 50000 people going to see the Pope give mass every Saturday or millions of muslims participating in the Hajj each year. I don't expect or want any of that to be banned though, why should I?

People are different and have different beliefs however absurd or distasteful we may find them. As there is a religious tint to this discussion how about we remember things like tolerance and forgiveness? Or does that not apply to rival football fans?

Tin hat is clearly firmly on as I appreciate I am in a minority of 1, or maybe 2!

You've got an opinion like everybody else. I'm definitely not a 'New' Firm hater quite the opposite. I just don't see how a football stadium is a place for sectarianism. Most people just want to attend a game without being subjected to religious abuse. I don't like being called a fenian at a football match. Just go along and enjoy it without the vile sectarianism. Other Countries manage to quite easily.

[WhileTheChief..]

You've got an opinion like everybody else. I'm definitely not a 'New' Firm hater quite the opposite. I just don't see how a football stadium is a place for sectarianism. Most people just want to attend a game without being subjected to religious abuse. I don't like being called a fenian at a football match. Just go along and enjoy it without the vile sectarianism. Other Countries manage to quite easily.

Fair comment. I guess i just don't see that as abuse.

I don't think I've ever felt unsafe or uncomfortable at ER. If I'm honest, I can never make out the words they sing anyways and I'm sure folk watching down south or abroad wouldn't be able to either.

I also don't buy into the Scotland's shame argument either. All their singing does is embarrass their own clubs. I can live with that.

[Skol]

Sectarianism has no place in Scottish Football or should in other Sporting Arena. If the authorities won't act then one idea may be the next time we are called dirty Fenians at Ibrox is to raise a Class Action suing Rangers for allowing such sectarian abuse to be chanted en masse. Something must be done about it. I hope that Zero Tolerance is seriously considered as I do get offended at being subjected to that vile sectarian abuse. I'm not a Catholic but love the Hibees mostly because I grew up a couple of miles from the ground. Why should I put up with being called a dirty fenian. It just should'nt happen.

I am more offended by the Wallace Mercer song than being called a Fenian

[doddsy]

Fair comment. I guess i just don't see that as abuse.

I don't think I've ever felt unsafe or uncomfortable at ER. If I'm honest, I can never make out the words they sing anyways and I'm sure folk watching down south or abroad wouldn't be able to either.

I also don't buy into the Scotland's shame argument either. All their singing does is embarrass their own clubs. I can live with that.

Maybe if you read the ex pat Canadian's post on this thread which is brilliant you might change your mind a bit. He was sayig the Canadians go along to their Ice hockey games without any segregation, roar on their team with a cracking atmospere without any hassle whatsoever. You don't need to sing vile hatred aimed at other people's religion. I could'nt give a monkey's what religion anyone follows. It's not called for really is it?

[WhileTheChief..]

Bit too touchy, feely, sanitised guff for me - fine for It's A Knockout or similar.

I like the rivalry, the tribalism. Nothing wrong with that in moderation. Loved the too-ing and fro-ing of chants against each set of fans. It was brilliant, some humorous, others down right nasty. Was anybody offended back then?? No, of course not.

I think all the family friendly stuff has killed a lot of the atmosphere. Check out the pics of ER with crowds of 30k +, its all men and boys.

Football fans are fine. We come under the spotlight far too often for no reason at all. I'm sick of if and sick of everybody blaming football fans for everything.

Now we want our own club to be penalised cause one of our own fans mis-behaves???

Un--believable.

[BH Hibs]

I am more offended by the Wallace Mercer song than being called a Fenian

Here we go

[Scouse Hibee]

I agree, zero tolerance.

My wife and I are having a wee one in the summer and I've been advised that my unborn child will not be going to the football.

Part of me wants to argue but why should any child be subjected to that bike anymore. By not tackling this head on we are not maximising our ability to drum up support.


"A friend of mine once said he liked his women like his parmesan: strong smelling and shaved"

That's a shame mate, your future son or daughter may well hear and ask about various unsavoury things they are likely to hear at a football match. However none of that will affect or shape them as they move on in life, that part is controlled by you and the missus.

[NorthNorfolkHFC]

Part of me agrees and I loved being taken to the football as a wee boy. It didn't affect me and as you say if parents parent properly there is no reason it should have an effect.
Part of me does think going to the football is healthy as you are able to model good behaviour and highlight bad behaviour whilst showing that you can lose graciously.


"A friend of mine once said he liked his women like his parmesan: strong smelling and shaved"

[doddsy]

Bit too touchy, feely, sanitised guff for me - fine for It's A Knockout or similar.

I like the rivalry, the tribalism. Nothing wrong with that in moderation. Loved the too-ing and fro-ing of chants against each set of fans. It was brilliant, some humorous, others down right nasty. Was anybody offended back then?? No, of course not.

I think all the family friendly stuff has killed a lot of the atmosphere. Check out the pics of ER with crowds of 30k +, its all men and boys.

Football fans are fine. We come under the spotlight far too often for no reason at all. I'm sick of if and sick of everybody blaming football fans for everything.

Now we want our own club to be penalised cause one of our own fans mis-behaves???

Un--believable.

It's pretty obvious you're Old Skool and proud of it. These are changed day's bud. The game had to change due to people being killed at the Heysel and Lepping Lane tragedies. The terraces were battle grounds. I'm glad the game has changed and continues to. I hate sectarianism and the divisions it causes. There's just no place for sectarianism at football. You can still go mental supporting your team without deliberately offending people bud.:thumbsup:

[WhileTheChief..]

It's pretty obvious you're Old Skool and proud of it. These are changed day's bud. The game had to change due to people being killed at the Heysel and Lepping Lane tragedies. The terraces were battle grounds. I'm glad the game has changed and continues to. I hate sectarianism and the divisions it causes. There's just no place for sectarianism at football. You can still go mental supporting your team without deliberately offending people bud.:thumbsup:

Ha, not old school at all. I never shout any kind of abuse at all at the football. Maybe the odd shout at the ref or an opposing player but certainly nothing remotely sectarian or racist or whatever. Lets nip that in the bud right away.

I just don't hate the old firm as some on here do. I don't care what they sing at all. They could sing about me being a black, gay, fenian vegetarian and I wouldn't bat an eye!

I think actually we agree on more than we disagree and pleased to see that you don't 'hate' the other clubs.

[WhileTheChief..]

Hang on, I said "I like the rivalry, the tribalism. Nothing wrong with that in moderation. Loved the too-ing and fro-ing of chants against each set of fans. It was brilliant, some humorous, others down right nasty."

and you come back with Heysel?? That's quite a leap no?

[doddsy]

Hang on, I said "I like the rivalry, the tribalism. Nothing wrong with that in moderation. Loved the too-ing and fro-ing of chants against each set of fans. It was brilliant, some humorous, others down right nasty."

and you come back with Heysel?? That's quite a leap no?

I was merely highlighting the bigger picture of why the game had become more family friendly which you did refer to. The terraces were a battlefied and all seater stadium was a no-brainer. I agree with you that the rivalry, tooing and froing of chants and tribalism done in moderation is fine. Surely you would agree that en masse chanting of religious hatred/racism/sexual orientation/Sexism is not part of the tribalism. I too like to go to a match and sing about how we stuffed the Jam tarts 7-0 and so on but would not ever feel the need to deliberately offend someones religion. I prefer to sing the songs about how we love the Hibees and about us than other clubs to be fair. It is my opinion.


:gwa:

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

It's pretty obvious you're Old Skool and proud of it. These are changed day's bud. The game had to change due to people being killed at the Heysel and Lepping Lane tragedies. The terraces were battle grounds. I'm glad the game has changed and continues to. I hate sectarianism and the divisions it causes. There's just no place for sectarianism at football. You can still go mental supporting your team without deliberately offending people bud.:thumbsup:

I never witnessed any battles at Hillsborough, sectarian or otherwise, perhaps if the fans had been in the opposite ends of the ground that tragedy would never have happened.

I'm happy enough to be old skool like While the Chief.

[JJP]

I think chants which refer to religion and sexuality are ridiculous and need to be removed from the game. I find 'Oh The Hibees Are Gay' and 'Rudi Skacel is a ****ing refugee' just as cringey as the sectarian stuff. I guess the difference is that the issues being brought up involve real bigotry and/or human suffering. These are issues people have lost their lives over. This stuff is different to songs like 'Since 1902' or, as was previously mentioned, 'We hate Glasgow Rangers, We hate Celtic too...'

[doddsy]

I never witnessed any battles at Hillsborough, sectarian or otherwise, perhaps if the fans had been in the opposite ends of the ground that tragedy would never have happened.

I'm happy enough to be old skool like While the Chief.

I did'nt mean to suggest there were battles at the Hillsborough which I was watching live that terrible day. That was mainly due to shocking inept crowd control by the authorities.

The game had to begin to change and all seaters were the beginning.

Back to the main point let's have no more vile sectarianism which is further welcome changel.

[JimBHibees]

Unless I picked it wrong, listening to Leeann Dempster talking about this on Sportsound earlier this week it sounded like she was edging towards the strict liability camp.

I thought it was a carefully thought out line which didnt really give an opinion either way however didnt rule it out.

[barcahibs]

Sorry put me down on the side of any sort of strict liability law being a really bad idea.

I've never understood why people get so upset about what other fans sing anyway? Surely half the point of singing is to try and annoy the opposition fans? If rantic fans want to sing about ancient weapons and hokey religions then that's their problem and says more about them than anything else. let them have enough rope so everyone can see what they are. Morons.

I'd also repeal the current laws against sectarian chanting which are not only stupid but dangerous IMO.

Free speech for me should be an absolute (bar shouting fire in a crowded theatre etc). The idea that we can ban certain thoughts and certain words is incredibly dangerous.

Who decides?

"We" want "billy boys" and references to ancient Irish battles banned as "we" find them offensive. What else? We also don't want "huns" or "refugees" banned because they're not offensive... but why do we get to decide that? If some knuckle dragging sevco fan finds Hun offensive why don't they have as much right to protection as anyone else?

If (sorry, When) I'm put in charge of the world I'd ban all religion altogether. I'd also ban dogs that can fit in handbags, international football and the Harry Potter Books. I'd have all mime artists, people that claim to be pyschics and anyone wearing maroon in public executed.

That's why I'm not allowed to be in charge and some sort of superhero group will eventually be set up to oppose me.

No one individual or group should be allowed to decide what people can and can't say, can and can't think or can and can't mock.

Because eventually they'll decide that something you hold dear is verboten and by then it'll be too late to stand against it.

Edit.

I'd also agree with thse above that if strict liability does come in then I'll bet my last pound that rantic won't be the first team its used against. The SPFL will be desperate to prove this a problem that exists outwith the old firm and will hammer someone else first.

I remember being in the old East years for a game against (then) rangers, I was right down towards the (then) rangers end and there was a guy and his wee son in the seat behind me that were absolute lunatics. Never seen them before or since but the (I presume) father was an actual, foaming at the mouth psycho. He was wearing some sort of Ireland top and both he and his son had Irish flags wrapped around them. The alcohol coming off him was almost a tangible presence in the air. He had dirt smeared on his face in a sort of war paint design (I kid you not) and he and the wee laddie were screaming the most foul abuse you've ever heard at the (then) rangers fans. I don't think they looked at the pitch once.

He was a lunatic (and I say that as someone who suffers from mental health problems before anyone wants that word banned). Every society, culture and group has them, even us. But under strict liability his actions would be held against me, the innocent Hibs fans around us and the club as a whole. That's not right.

We need to educate the rantic fans that their behaviour is unacceptable. We need to condemn it and we need politicians, journalists and social leaders to condemn it at every turn. But we don't ban it.

[GreenOnions]

Sorry put me down on the side of any sort of strict liability law being a really bad idea.

I've never understood why people get so upset about what other fans sing anyway? Surely half the point of singing is to try and annoy the opposition fans? If rantic fans want to sing about ancient weapons and hokey religions then that's their problem and says more about them than anything else. let them have enough rope so everyone can see what they are. Morons.

I'd also repeal the current laws against sectarian chanting which are not only stupid but dangerous IMO.

Free speech for me should be an absolute (bar shouting fire in a crowded theatre etc). The idea that we can ban certain thoughts and certain words is incredibly dangerous.

Who decides?

"We" want "billy boys" and references to ancient Irish battles banned as "we" find them offensive. What else? We also don't want "huns" or "refugees" banned because they're not offensive... but why do we get to decide that? If some knuckle dragging sevco fan finds Hun offensive why don't they have as much right to protection as anyone else?

If (sorry, When) I'm put in charge of the world I'd ban all religion altogether. I'd also ban dogs that can fit in handbags, international football and the Harry Potter Books. I'd have all mime artists, people that claim to be pyschics and anyone wearing maroon in public executed.

That's why I'm not allowed to be in charge and some sort of superhero group will eventually be set up to oppose me.

No one individual or group should be allowed to decide what people can and can't say, can and can't think or can and can't mock.

Because eventually they'll decide that something you hold dear is verboten and by then it'll be too late to stand against it.

Edit.

I'd also agree with thse above that if strict liability does come in then I'll bet my last pound that rantic won't be the first team its used against. The SPFL will be desperate to prove this a problem that exists outwith the old firm and will hammer someone else first.

I remember being in the old East years for a game against (then) rangers, I was right down towards the (then) rangers end and there was a guy and his wee son in the seat behind me that were absolute lunatics. Never seen them before or since but the (I presume) father was an actual, foaming at the mouth psycho. He was wearing some sort of Ireland top and both he and his son had Irish flags wrapped around them. The alcohol coming off him was almost a tangible presence in the air. He had dirt smeared on his face in a sort of war paint design (I kid you not) and he and the wee laddie were screaming the most foul abuse you've ever heard at the (then) rangers fans. I don't think they looked at the pitch once.

He was a lunatic (and I say that as someone who suffers from mental health problems before anyone wants that word banned). Every society, culture and group has them, even us. But under strict liability his actions would be held against me, the innocent Hibs fans around us and the club as a whole. That's not right.

We need to educate the rantic fans that their behaviour is unacceptable. We need to condemn it and we need politicians, journalists and social leaders to condemn it at every turn. But we don't ban it.

This 100%

Despite the laudable aim of ridding ourselves of sectarian bile everywhere I feel we should address it differently.

The sort of approach being advocated by many on here will have negative consequences for freedom of expression that outweigh any progress that might be made

There are more fundamental ways in which people's (unhealthy) belief systems are formed and this generally occurs from a young age IMO. Banning songs at football matches is like a cheap and easy way to cover an enormous and ugly c*ck in a public space with a tiny fig leaf to make ourselves feel as if we're doing something about it.

We really need to look at how our children are being educated at a young age and to challenge these beliefs then. I agree with Barcahibs re religion and believe that its organised form has always been the most insidious and dangerous influence that exists across the world. However, it's here to stay I'm afraid.

The sort of action that needs taken is much more fundamental than is being proposed here. IMO it's hard to avoid feeling that denominational schooling is a serious problem. Yes - people should be able to send their kids to whatever school they want but, if state education is to be truly "comprehensive", there can be no state-funding for denominational schools and religion should be taught as a cultural subject rather than as some kind of science. Let's get our children learning together in a truly culturally and ethnically mixed environment - one that matches real life. Ridiculous suspicions and ignorant prejudices may then have a chance of fading away.

Apologies for getting political on a football forum :-/ I just can't see any other way to get across the point of view that disagrees with more censorship/banning etc

[doddsy]

Sorry put me down on the side of any sort of strict liability law being a really bad idea.

I've never understood why people get so upset about what other fans sing anyway? Surely half the point of singing is to try and annoy the opposition fans? If rantic fans want to sing about ancient weapons and hokey religions then that's their problem and says more about them than anything else. let them have enough rope so everyone can see what they are. Morons.

I'd also repeal the current laws against sectarian chanting which are not only stupid but dangerous IMO.

Free speech for me should be an absolute (bar shouting fire in a crowded theatre etc). The idea that we can ban certain thoughts and certain words is incredibly dangerous.

Who decides?

"We" want "billy boys" and references to ancient Irish battles banned as "we" find them offensive. What else? We also don't want "huns" or "refugees" banned because they're not offensive... but why do we get to decide that? If some knuckle dragging sevco fan finds Hun offensive why don't they have as much right to protection as anyone else?

If (sorry, When) I'm put in charge of the world I'd ban all religion altogether. I'd also ban dogs that can fit in handbags, international football and the Harry Potter Books. I'd have all mime artists, people that claim to be pyschics and anyone wearing maroon in public executed.

That's why I'm not allowed to be in charge and some sort of superhero group will eventually be set up to oppose me.

No one individual or group should be allowed to decide what people can and can't say, can and can't think or can and can't mock.

Because eventually they'll decide that something you hold dear is verboten and by then it'll be too late to stand against it.

Edit.

I'd also agree with thse above that if strict liability does come in then I'll bet my last pound that rantic won't be the first team its used against. The SPFL will be desperate to prove this a problem that exists outwith the old firm and will hammer someone else first.

I remember being in the old East years for a game against (then) rangers, I was right down towards the (then) rangers end and there was a guy and his wee son in the seat behind me that were absolute lunatics. Never seen them before or since but the (I presume) father was an actual, foaming at the mouth psycho. He was wearing some sort of Ireland top and both he and his son had Irish flags wrapped around them. The alcohol coming off him was almost a tangible presence in the air. He had dirt smeared on his face in a sort of war paint design (I kid you not) and he and the wee laddie were screaming the most foul abuse you've ever heard at the (then) rangers fans. I don't think they looked at the pitch once.

He was a lunatic (and I say that as someone who suffers from mental health problems before anyone wants that word banned). Every society, culture and group has them, even us. But under strict liability his actions would be held against me, the innocent Hibs fans around us and the club as a whole. That's not right.

We need to educate the rantic fans that their behaviour is unacceptable. We need to condemn it and we need politicians, journalists and social leaders to condemn it at every turn. But we don't ban it.

Why should I as a perfectly normal fan maybe taking my children to the match have to listen to morons screaming at me that i and my children are fenian so and so's? About battles fought in Ireland hundreds of years ago. Sorry don't think I should nor any other decent fan who does'nt feel the need to offend other people's religion.

[barcahibs]

Why should I as a perfectly normal fan maybe taking my children to the match have to listen to morons screaming at me that i and my children are fenian so and so's? About battles fought in Ireland hundreds of years ago. Sorry don't think I should nor any other decent fan who does'nt feel the need to offend other people's religion.

You shouldn't. But that doesn't mean you ban it.

Why should sevco fans have to listen to being called huns? Why should hearts fans have to put up with being reminded about 7-0 or stealing poppies every time they play us? I bet (I hope) that offends them. The poor wee souls.

Why should I have to put up with religious people (of any flavour) spouting on about their beliefs? Let's ban it!

Its not like race, or sexual orientation. You choose to be religious so why should it get special protection...

I don't agree with people who talk about Scottish independence, can I ban it? Can I ban people who have a different opinion from me on patriotism or democracy? (I'm vaguely for one and vaguely against the other...)

You (or, unfortunately, I) shouldn't get to ban things because they annoy you or upset you. It's part of life.

Education, not banning orders is the way forward, make the behaviour socially and culturally unacceptable, challenge and condemn it at every turn, remove any protection it has... But don't infringe people's right to think and speak.

[WhileTheChief..]

Shouldn't have edited your post. Your tale of religion, booze, fags and dogs summed this up perfectly!

[Eyrie]

It's all very well to say that this is a societal problem to be addressed through education, but how effective will that education be if the kids then hear the bigoted chants of 40,000 morons at a football game? So many people doing it makes such behaviour look acceptable.

Strict liability doesn't mean a club getting ten points deducted because of the first incident involving one idiot. There could be an escalating series of responses, starting with a warning, a second warning, a fine, a larger fine, a points deduction, a larger points deduction, a stand closure, a ground closure etc.

After the first couple of steps are taken the majority of fans will stop joining in, making it easier for the police and stewards to do their job and deal with the remaining hard core.

[Brizo]

The sort of action that needs taken is much more fundamental than is being proposed here. IMO it's hard to avoid feeling that denominational schooling is a serious problem. Yes - people should be able to send their kids to whatever school they want but, if state education is to be truly "comprehensive", there can be no state-funding for denominational schools and religion should be taught as a cultural subject rather than as some kind of science. Let's get our children learning together in a truly culturally and ethnically mixed environment - one that matches real life. Ridiculous suspicions and ignorant prejudices may then have a chance of fading away.

The irony here is that the people who are keeping Catholic schools thriving and sustainable are the countless Protestant, atheists, agnostic, Muslim parents who choose to send their kids to them. Catholic schools in the 21st century probably have a more diverse student population than their non denominational counterparts.

If denominational schools were a cause of sectarianism every mainland UK city would have a sectarian problem , as all our major cities have denominational schools.




Its not like race, or sexual orientation. You choose to be religious so why should it get special protection....

The type of sectarian hatred practised by fitba bigots is essentially racist. The Rantic fans aren't expressing religious differences on transubstantiation or the Reformation. In the case of the Rangers fans its anti Irish Catholic with the emphasis on the anti Irish. Taigs, tarriers, fenians all insults with a specific Irish twist.

[barcahibs]

Shouldn't have edited your post. Your tale of religion, booze, fags and dogs summed this up perfectly!

And I still believe it... But I was a bit worried it sounded like I was trying to take the mickey out of a fellow Hibby, which I'm really not.

As to the 40,000 fans singing it every week, that's why we need journalists and politicians to challenge it. Condemn it, ridicule it, highlight it every time it raises it's ugly head... But you can't (well you can, but you shouldn't) infringe people's freedom to speak as they please in a public place, because that will come back to bite us, hard, and in ways we can't predict.

[Bronson]

I'm not even going to put on a faux rage about a few songs because they're water off a dug's back to me, but if a zero tolerance means rangers would be retrospectively punished for any sectarian singing, i.e. fines, even points deductions, then I'm all for it.

I don't care about the weegie jakeballs bursting a lung for 90 mins, I just like them seeing their beloved club suffer.

[GreenOnions]

The irony here is that the people who are keeping Catholic schools thriving and sustainable are the countless Protestant, atheists, agnostic, Muslim parents who choose to send their kids to them. Catholic schools in the 21st century probably have a more diverse student population than their non denominational counterparts.

If denominational schools were a cause of sectarianism every mainland UK city would have a sectarian problem , as all our major cities have denominational schools.

The type of sectarian hatred practised by fitba bigots is essentially racist. The Rantic fans aren't expressing religious differences on transubstantiation or the Reformation. In the case of the Rangers fans its anti Irish Catholic with the emphasis on the anti Irish. Taigs, tarriers, fenians all insults with a specific Irish twist.

Do you not think there is a growing problem of separation/division across the UK between different ethnic / religious / cultural groups?

[barcahibs]

The type of sectarian hatred practised by fitba bigots is essentially racist. The Rantic fans aren't expressing religious differences on transubstantiation or the Reformation. In the case of the Rangers fans its anti Irish Catholic with the emphasis on the anti Irish. Taigs, tarriers, fenians all insults with a specific Irish twist.

Totally agree with you, I was just taking the religious point to its obvious conclusion. I believe passionately in free speech... And yet I genuinely would ban religion if I could - which is why it's so important that no one (especially me) should be able to infringe on others rights in that way.

I can't remember who, but I mind reading a quote from someone who paraphrased Voltaire (or at least Voltaire's biographer) by saying that the ku Klux Klan should absolutely have the right to march through the streets... And everyone else should have the right to meet them with baseball bats.

Now I disagree with the violence part of that... But we definitely should all go down there dressed as ghosts and pretend its a giant halloween party while we toast marshmallows on the burning crosses.

You defeat stupid ideas (like racism or sectarianism) by exposing their stupidity. Debate it, bring it into the light of day, hold it up for everyone to see, rip the pish out of it and watch it die.

Banning it and hiding from it just gives it power.

[southsider]

The main point, for me anyway, was the manager of Hibernian Football Club, Mr Alan Stubbs, was AT HIS WORK, doing his job when 20/30/40,000 home supporters verbally abused him. No-one deserves that kind of abuse. If it was racist rather then sectarian it would have been headline news across the UK. Just for the record Mr Stubbs was not, is not and never as been a Fenian. That particular movement has not existed for well over 100 years. We all know rangers fans use that term for anyone from a RC background. As team manager of my Football Club it is off no interest to me. It is his business. Secondly he is not a 'B' either. If that kind of abuse was directed to a bus or train driver action would be taken. To say "oh rangers are doing their best to stop this" is a downright lie. Where was the tannoy anouncements for those chants to stop ? What should have happened and what should in future is the 4th official tells the match commander to announce that these chants must stop. If they continue then this is included is the match report and the SFA must act. A fine first then points are deducted. This abuse must be stopped.

[doddsy]

[QUOTE=barcahibs;4556651]Totally agree with you, I was just taking the religious point to its obvious conclusion. I believe passionately in free speech... And yet I genuinely would ban religion if I could - which is why it's so important that no one (especially me) should be able to infringe on others rights in that way.

I can't remember who, but I mind reading a quote from someone who paraphrased Voltaire (or at least Voltaire's biographer) by saying that the ku Klux Klan should absolutely have the right to march through the streets... And everyone else should have the right to meet them with baseball bats.

Now I disagree with the violence part of that... But we definitely should all go down there dressed as ghosts and pretend its a giant halloween party while we toast marshmallows on the burning crosses.

You defeat stupid ideas (like racism or sectarianism) by exposing their stupidity. Debate it, bring it into the light of day, hold it up for everyone to see, rip the pish out of it and watch it die.

Banning it and hiding from it just gives it power.[/QUOTE

Free speech should not mean people are free to openly abuse and offend people. It's just common decency not to go to a football match and sing bigoted vile songs. I don't support the hibees because of the roots which was that of the Edinburgh Catholic Community forming a football team, I support the hibees because my Dad was a dyed in the wool supporter who took me to the matches. I am not a Catholic and the Hibees are an all inclusive football family open to people of all faiths nationalities creed whatever. I love the club. I find it offensive that other clubs call me a fenian so and so because I happen to support the hibees. Education won't solve the problem if it's allowed to continue. There must be some direct punishment to the individual clubs if their so-called fans consistently engage in sectarianism. Clubs can be proud of their roots without reverting to singing about other fans being fenians or gay or any other vile abuse.

Why can't we just go to games and not engage in religious bigotry. The SFA should grow a pair and demonstrate sectarianism has no place at football. A grading scale of punishments that gradually increase due to persistence should be adopted. You know it makes it sense!

[Carheenlea]

The main point, for me anyway, was the manager of Hibernian Football Club, Mr Alan Stubbs, was AT HIS WORK, doing his job when 20/30/40,000 home supporters verbally abused him. No-one deserves that kind of abuse. If it was racist rather then sectarian it would have been headline news across the UK. Just for the record Mr Stubbs was not, is not and never as been a Fenian. That particular movement has not existed for well over 100 years. We all know rangers fans use that term for anyone from a RC background. As team manager of my Football Club it is off no interest to me. It is his business. Secondly he is not a 'B' either. If that kind of abuse was directed to a bus or train driver action would be taken. To say "oh rangers are doing their best to stop this" is a downright lie. Where was the tannoy anouncements for those chants to stop ? What should have happened and what should in future is the 4th official tells the match commander to announce that these chants must stop. If they continue then this is included is the match report and the SFA must act. A fine first then points are deducted. This abuse must be stopped.

Stubbs laughed off the abuse and put it down to the pantomime nature of being a former Old Firm player. I remember taking my wife, who is Irish, to a Hibs v Rangers game when the famine song was flavour of the month. She found the whole thing laughable and took no offence.Doesn't make it acceptable of course.
A lot of those offended will be getting offended on behalf of those they think are offended.

[doddsy]

Stubbs laughed off the abuse and put it down to the pantomime nature of being a former Old Firm player. I remember taking my wife, who is Irish, to a Hibs v Rangers game when the famine song was flavour of the month. She found the whole thing laughable and took no offence.Doesn't make it acceptable of course.
A lot of those offended will be getting offended on behalf of those they think are offended.

And rightly so. Change only happens when people defend the rights of others not to be subjected to vile sectarian abuse. I know i would challenge someone who made abusive comments about another person's sexuality and if that makes me a person who takes offence for someone else so be it.

Hope to goodness we get a win and the gers slip up. please.

[southsider]

Stubbs laughed off the abuse and put it down to the pantomime nature of being a former Old Firm player. I remember taking my wife, who is Irish, to a Hibs v Rangers game when the famine song was flavour of the month. She found the whole thing laughable and took no offence.Doesn't make it acceptable of course.
A lot of those offended will be getting offended on behalf of those they think are offended.

So we do nothing and let it continue ? Mr Stubbs may have laughed it off but there were young children at that game who now think it is acceptable to behave in such a manner. It is just as vulgar as racism and must be stopped.

[doddsy]

So we do nothing and let it continue ? Mr Stubbs may have laughed it off but there were young children at that game who now think it is acceptable to behave in such a manner. It is just as vulgar as racism and must be stopped.


:agree:

[doddsy]

The main point, for me anyway, was the manager of Hibernian Football Club, Mr Alan Stubbs, was AT HIS WORK, doing his job when 20/30/40,000 home supporters verbally abused him. No-one deserves that kind of abuse. If it was racist rather then sectarian it would have been headline news across the UK. Just for the record Mr Stubbs was not, is not and never as been a Fenian. That particular movement has not existed for well over 100 years. We all know rangers fans use that term for anyone from a RC background. As team manager of my Football Club it is off no interest to me. It is his business. Secondly he is not a 'B' either. If that kind of abuse was directed to a bus or train driver action would be taken. To say "oh rangers are doing their best to stop this" is a downright lie. Where was the tannoy anouncements for those chants to stop ? What should have happened and what should in future is the 4th official tells the match commander to announce that these chants must stop. If they continue then this is included is the match report and the SFA must act. A fine first then points are deducted. This abuse must be stopped.

Just read your post southsider. The most intelligent post on this thread yet in my opinion. Great points well made.:clapper:

[GreenOnions]

Free speech should not mean people are free to openly abuse and offend people. It's just common decency not to go to a football match and sing bigoted vile songs. I don't support the hibees because of the roots which was that of the Edinburgh Catholic Community forming a football team, I support the hibees because my Dad was a dyed in the wool supporter who took me to the matches. I am not a Catholic and the Hibees are an all inclusive football family open to people of all faiths nationalities creed whatever. I love the club. I find it offensive that other clubs call me a fenian so and so because I happen to support the hibees. Education won't solve the problem if it's allowed to continue. There must be some direct punishment to the individual clubs if their so-called fans consistently engage in sectarianism. Clubs can be proud of their roots without reverting to singing about other fans being fenians or gay or any other vile abuse.

Why can't we just go to games and not engage in religious bigotry. The SFA should grow a pair and demonstrate sectarianism has no place at football. A grading scale of punishments that gradually increase due to persistence should be adopted. You know it makes it sense!

I'm afraid we can't just make illegal rudeness, brashness, insensitivity, boorishness etc - unfortunately these are part of human nature and this form of it happens to be called sectarianism. To start really using the anti-sectarian laws would result in a never-ending battle of competitive indignation - each group trying to claim that it is more-offended than the other about one remark/phrase/word/song or another.

Are we really wanting to make rudeness or obnoxiousness illegal? We need to think very carefully I believe before we legislate against words used. In this country we choose to protect only certain groups from this - groups that can demonstrate a particular vulnerability in this regard.

I really don't think there is any extra vulnerability in the west coast sectarian debate that would justify additional legal protection.

I'm not really sure whether you're talking about enforcing the Scottish Government's anti-sectarian law or whether you're talking about the SPFL having a code of conduct for member clubs relating to dealing with these things within stadia?

As I have explained - I don't believe in the former but I could possibly be persuaded by the latter if individual clubs were involved in the creation of such a code of conduct and were committed to implementing it.

[WhileTheChief..]

Young children at the game wouldn't have a clue what was being sung. There not a chance in hell that they can make out the words if sitting in the Famous Five stand.

My dad took me to games in the 70s and 80s. I wouldn't have know what sectarianism was let alone understood what was being sung.

And if I asked what something meant I got the standard reply of " tell you when you're older"!

[doddsy]

I'm afraid we can't just make illegal rudeness, brashness, insensitivity, boorishness etc - unfortunately these are part of human nature and this form of it happens to be called sectarianism. To start really using the anti-sectarian laws would result in a never-ending battle of competitive indignation - each group trying to claim that it is more-offended than the other about one remark/phrase/word/song or another.

Are we really wanting to make rudeness or obnoxiousness illegal? We need to think very carefully I believe before we legislate against words used. In this country we choose to protect only certain groups from this - groups that can demonstrate a particular vulnerability in this regard.
I really don't think there is any extra vulnerability in the west coast sectarian debate that would justify additional legal protection.

I'm not really sure whether you're talking about enforcing the Scottish Government's anti-sectarian law or whether you're talking about SPFL having a code of conduct for member clubs relating to dealing with these things within stadia?

As I have explained - I don't believe in the former but I could possibly be persuaded by the latter if individual clubs were involved in the creation of such a code of conduct and were committed to implementing it.

I think groups like NIl by Mouth, the sfa, the clubs could easily come up with a solution. Everybody knows if you racially abuse at a match your feet won't touch the ground and the same should happen for sectarian abuse also.

[Carheenlea]

I have two young girls, and if I take them to Ibrox sometime in the future I will be more worried about them getting hit by a missile than being subjected to bigoted chants. It is the missile throwing that our away support is subjected to at Ibrox I want to see Hibs address with Rangers. The safety of our support is the number one priority before the singing of certain songs.