When we reach 51% fan ownership

[NAE NOOKIE]

The way things are going by the end of the decade chances are the 51% will have been reached, but that leaves a few big questions:

How will the club be run when you will have lets say STF with 44% of the club, HSL with 35%, individual shareholders with 16% and Rod Petrie with 5%

At the moment the one big advantage we have is STF has and will at least guarantee, if not cover, the clubs losses, but will he or the Farmer family continue in this altruistic fashion when they no longer have overall control of the club. In the longer term will STF's heirs even want to continue to be owners of less than 50% of a football club, and if not what will they do with their shares? ..... sell them? ..... gift them to HSL? .... put them in trust? ... what?

Then there is the matter of being able to finance a fan owned club to the extent that it isn't just treading water .... We do not have the huge fan base of a big German fan owned club to tap into and we are unlikely to be able to persuade a big company or rich individual to take over the whole of the 49% who will be willing to pump money into the club but have no overall control of it.

The aims for Hibernian FC going forward must be as follows:

To put a team on the park, with a top notch coaching and medical staff behind them, capable of being consistently in the top 4 in the league, winning cups, getting to the group stages of the Europa league, pumping the Yams 9 times out of 10 and perhaps one day even winning the premier league.

Having the finances to ensure that the infrastructure we own I.E. the stadium and training complex are maintained to the highest standard, without being a drain on our on field ambitions.

Finishing the stadium .... As things stand the stadium is perfectly acceptable and kicks the ass of anything outside of Glasgow and many other clubs in the UK. But to my mind it will not be all it can, and should, be until all 4 stands are joined up and the corners filled in, I am not talking about increasing capacity. This is obviously a low priority in relation to the two main aims above, but if we are to truly be a club with ambition turning Easter Road from an excellent stadium into a truly fantastic one should never be off the agenda.

Anyway ... I reckon we probably have a good 3 to 5 years to think about how we will go about all of this, but unless we want to get caught with our pants down the time to begin that process is now.

Thoughts.

[jacomo]

Of course, this is the big question.

STF unwinding his involvement in Hibs. I think the £5m loan is the final settlement on his financial support for the club. Once that is paid off, and fan ownership reaches 51%, he will have a minority share holding and Hibs will be expected to be financially self sufficient.

I assume he already has ideas for what happens after that, but we haven't been told. If the Farmer family wanted to retain their 49% stake for the long term, you might have thought that another family member would have stepped up into a role with the club by now.

[Ozyhibby]

All good questions. One thing is for sure, the status quo is not an option. STF is unwinding his position and we will have to be self sufficient going forward.


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[Andy74]

The way things are going by the end of the decade chances are the 51% will have been reached, but that leaves a few big questions:

How will the club be run when you will have lets say STF with 44% of the club, HSL with 35%, individual shareholders with 16% and Rod Petrie with 5%

At the moment the one big advantage we have is STF has and will at least guarantee, if not cover, the clubs losses, but will he or the Farmer family continue in this altruistic fashion when they no longer have overall control of the club. In the longer term will STF's heirs even want to continue to be owners of less than 50% of a football club, and if not what will they do with their shares? ..... sell them? ..... gift them to HSL? .... put them in trust? ... what?

Then there is the matter of being able to finance a fan owned club to the extent that it isn't just treading water .... We do not have the huge fan base of a big German fan owned club to tap into and we are unlikely to be able to persuade a big company or rich individual to take over the whole of the 49% who will be willing to pump money into the club but have no overall control of it.

The aims for Hibernian FC going forward must be as follows:

To put a team on the park, with a top notch coaching and medical staff behind them, capable of being consistently in the top 4 in the league, winning cups, getting to the group stages of the Europa league, pumping the Yams 9 times out of 10 and perhaps one day even winning the premier league.

Having the finances to ensure that the infrastructure we own I.E. the stadium and training complex are maintained to the highest standard, without being a drain on our on field ambitions.

Finishing the stadium .... As things stand the stadium is perfectly acceptable and kicks the ass of anything outside of Glasgow and many other clubs in the UK. But to my mind it will not be all it can, and should, be until all 4 stands are joined up and the corners filled in, I am not talking about increasing capacity. This is obviously a low priority in relation to the two main aims above, but if we are to truly be a club with ambition turning Easter Road from an excellent stadium into a truly fantastic one should never be off the agenda.

Anyway ... I reckon we probably have a good 3 to 5 years to think about how we will go about all of this, but unless we want to get caught with our pants down the time to begin that process is now.

Thoughts.

Yeah this is the thing, if the fans want to own the club, which is the meassage they have given, we need to live with all that comes with that decision, including funding it when it is needed.

I think we will be in a good place in relation to our debt and the assets we hold but we are going to have less leeway in future to borrow cheaply if we do have periods of sustained losses.

[Arch Stanton]

End of the decade isn't that far away - getting to grips with things should really start now.

And first off is getting to grips with HSL I'd say. If we don't control that then we don't control the club and yet I am pretty clueless how HSL is run. The FAQs say that the Founding Directors resign and elections start in 2018 but doesn't (as yet anyway) elaborate. It would be good if fans could be involved in fleshing out the details and I'm sure input would be welcome - they do intend to be democratic after all. In fact, it is quite possible that consultation has been going on without me noticing.

I'm guessing that I'm not a proper member until my contributions total £225 but what happens then? You'd figure there would be a way of agreeing policy and representatives/directors but how exactly? The following excerpt from their FAQs will need to be amplified IMO -
"The Directors will start a process of consultation when there are sufficient members to determine the form and method of taking members wishes to the Board of HFC. When we achieve 20% of the shares we will have a Director on the Board and therefore direct access."

Anyway - it's been a good start.


Yeah this is the thing, if the fans want to own the club, which is the meassage they have given, we need to live with all that comes with that decision, including funding it when it is needed.

I think we will be in a good place in relation to our debt and the assets we hold but we are going to have less leeway in future to borrow cheaply if we do have periods of sustained losses.

I suppose the good news is that banks will not let us have overdrafts they don't think we can sustain therefore periods of losses will be out of the question - a single loss means a cut in spending basically.

[lord bunberry]

I would like to think that people would keep the direct debits going to fund the club further.

[scoopyboy]

An interesting debate for sure.

I think by the end of the decade Sir Tom Farmer would be ready to take his leave, whether his family wished to remain involved I have no idea.

[Tyler Durden]

In the last 3-5 years STF hasn't covered our losses as such. Loans from the holding company have and they are now being repaid as part of the remaining £5m. This isn't intended as a criticism of Farmer at all - I'm sure he's well out of pocket over his entire term. But arguably the club have been self sufficient for a while now, albeit with his financial clout there as a contingency.

Theres no reason Hibs cannot operate within our means successfully in the future. Good leadership is required and we are currently well placed with Leanne Dempster. But I do agree the running of HSL becomes a concern as their shareholding grows. A nice problem all the same

[Liberal Hibby]

If HSL have 51% doesn't it end them as an organisation? :wink:

[Arch Stanton]

If HSL have 51% doesn't it end them as an organisation? :wink:

Lucky for me I noticed the wink before I started on a big explanation.

Anyway, if you are actually trying to make this thread as interesting as the sevco one I think you are on a losing wicket. :agree:

For anyone who is confused, fans will have shares in HSL and HSL will have shares in the club (but not 51% I hasten to add). So, it just can't end - and nor, can it float off to the South of France for a holiday!

[Baldy Foghorn]

The way things are going by the end of the decade chances are the 51% will have been reached, but that leaves a few big questions:

How will the club be run when you will have lets say STF with 44% of the club, HSL with 35%, individual shareholders with 16% and Rod Petrie with 5%

At the moment the one big advantage we have is STF has and will at least guarantee, if not cover, the clubs losses, but will he or the Farmer family continue in this altruistic fashion when they no longer have overall control of the club. In the longer term will STF's heirs even want to continue to be owners of less than 50% of a football club, and if not what will they do with their shares? ..... sell them? ..... gift them to HSL? .... put them in trust? ... what?

Then there is the matter of being able to finance a fan owned club to the extent that it isn't just treading water .... We do not have the huge fan base of a big German fan owned club to tap into and we are unlikely to be able to persuade a big company or rich individual to take over the whole of the 49% who will be willing to pump money into the club but have no overall control of it.

The aims for Hibernian FC going forward must be as follows:

To put a team on the park, with a top notch coaching and medical staff behind them, capable of being consistently in the top 4 in the league, winning cups, getting to the group stages of the Europa league, pumping the Yams 9 times out of 10 and perhaps one day even winning the premier league.

Having the finances to ensure that the infrastructure we own I.E. the stadium and training complex are maintained to the highest standard, without being a drain on our on field ambitions.

Finishing the stadium .... As things stand the stadium is perfectly acceptable and kicks the ass of anything outside of Glasgow and many other clubs in the UK. But to my mind it will not be all it can, and should, be until all 4 stands are joined up and the corners filled in, I am not talking about increasing capacity. This is obviously a low priority in relation to the two main aims above, but if we are to truly be a club with ambition turning Easter Road from an excellent stadium into a truly fantastic one should never be off the agenda.

Anyway ... I reckon we probably have a good 3 to 5 years to think about how we will go about all of this, but unless we want to get caught with our pants down the time to begin that process is now.

Thoughts.

Re paragraph in bold, if you dont want to increase capacity, what would you do with "filled in" areas?

[BoomtownHibees]

Re paragraph in bold, if you dont want to increase capacity, what would you do with "filled in" areas?

The helipad needs to go somewhere

[Ozyhibby]

HSL belongs to the members and its up to the members to shape it going forward. In 2018 we have the chance to nominate and vote for a new board when the existing board either step down or put themselves up for reelection. Hopefully by that time we will have a much bigger membership that reflects the Hibs support.


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[Ged]

Without the safety net of STF's backing the club will have no choice but to live within its means. Presumably the alternative would be for shareholders to pick up the tab.

Who would be up for stumping up ??p per share to get the club out of trouble?

[Arch Stanton]

Re paragraph in bold, if you dont want to increase capacity, what would you do with "filled in" areas?

Can I have one of these great big TV screens? 4 even.

[Gatecrasher]

Can I have one of these great big TV screens? 4 even.
We need TVs :agree::agree:

[Keith_M]

STF and Petrie won't own any of the club as I'll have bought them out within a couple of years.

:wink:

[Arch Stanton]

We need TVs :agree::agree:

I'd call that unanimous then - this running a football club is a piece of p*ss - I don't know what all the fuss is about.

btw has anyone had any dealing with HSL or know what they are up to? I see they have a contact email on their website - I wonder if it would be too presumptuous just to ask?

[offshorehibby]

As Ozyhibby says, HSL will develop as the years go on and as it gets stronger, will have a bigger say. STF will still have a major stake in the club, and as has been discussed before I would not be surprised if he has a plan in place when the time comes to leave Hibs in a strong position.

Even when HSL have our 51% the club will/should be run along the same lines as present with a strong CEO and board. With the right people in charge a good Hibs team playing in the premiership should be able to live within their means and stay within budget.

Once the 51% is reached I would like to think most of the HSL members currently paying with DD will continue the DD’s. Whether this is to continue funding extra budget for players or possibly eventually filters some of this into an emergency type fund in case we did get into deep doo doo.

[davy malcolm]

I'm a HSL member what happens to my membership when I'm dead can I pass it on to my family sorry for being so gloomy


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[lord bunberry]

I'm a HSL member what happens to my membership when I'm dead can I pass it on to my family sorry for being so gloomy


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I wouldn't have thought so. If you knew it was going to happen(sorry for being equally gloomy) then I would imagine there wouldn't be a problem with doing it before hand.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd call that unanimous then - this running a football club is a piece of p*ss - I don't know what all the fuss is about.

btw has anyone had any dealing with HSL or know what they are up to? I see they have a contact email on their website - I wonder if it would be too presumptuous just to ask?

It's def not too presumptuous to ask. Most of what HSL is doing just now is trying to sign up enough members to give it critical mass. Each month they pay over the money that comes in to Hibs in return for shares. That's about it just now. I know they are looking for input from the members so you def should email them.


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[Ozyhibby]

I'm a HSL member what happens to my membership when I'm dead can I pass it on to my family sorry for being so gloomy


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Yes you can. So long as it's not a yam. [emoji6]


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[davy malcolm]

Yes you can. So long as it's not a yam. [emoji6]


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Cheers there's no yams in my family


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[superfurryhibby]

More questions than answers. Maybe STF and his minion need to spell this out clearly in order to remove any ambiguity that might prevent even more folk from getting onboard. Namely what happens when the magic number is realised? Or is it too much to ask?

There is so much supporter goodwill for this club and I am quite touched that fans have been able to progress the ownership thing so quickly, despite the fact that we have not been publicly placed under threat and th fact that the club has been chronically mismanaged for so many years.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Re paragraph in bold, if you dont want to increase capacity, what would you do with "filled in" areas?

You're gonna' be sorry you asked mate :greengrin

The corners between the East and South and West and FF I would simply fill in as they have done at Ibrox with large TV screens included.

The corner between the South and West I would fill with something like a building containing office space, or perhaps even hospitality areas for exclusive use of away fans .... this corner would also have a tunnel large enough to get construction vehicles, ambulances etc into the stadium.

The space between the FF and the East is the biggie and the skies the limit here, its huge.

If you want the club to make money from it you could build a sizeable hotel with parking space underneath it. I doubt there is a city in the UK better able to make a hotel viable than Edinburgh.

If money was no object I would build in that space in consultation with the Hibs supporters association and HSL with a view to both bodies being based in the building, the finished building would be gifted to them as their property, so that their independence from the club ( especially in the case of the HSA ) would not be compromised.

In the finished stadium at all corners the sides of the new building would form the end walls of each stand, replacing the current Perspex and giving the ground a far more intimate feel and atmosphere. The roofs of the FF and South would also be extended to reach the roofs of the East and West. In fact just for good measure I would extend the roof of the East by a few metres too.

What a stadium that would be, the whole lot shouldn't cost any more than 15 million quid :greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

More questions than answers. Maybe STF and his minion need to spell this out clearly in order to remove any ambiguity that might prevent even more folk from getting onboard. Namely what happens when the magic number is realised? Or is it too much to ask?

There is so much supporter goodwill for this club and I am quite touched that fans have been able to progress the ownership thing so quickly, despite the fact that we have not been publicly placed under threat and th fact that the club has been chronically mismanaged for so many years.

I'm straying outside my area of expertise (never normally stops me) but I don't think HSL alone can get to 51% because individual fans have bought shares. I think the two main targets just now are 20% and 26%. At 20%, HSL are entitled to a seat on the board and at 26% they have a veto over major decisions (helipads etc).
Technically when the the combined fans groups get to 51% they can move to replace the chairman of they so wish (I think).



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[Ozyhibby]

You're gonna' be sorry you asked mate :greengrin

The corners between the East and South and West and FF I would simply fill in as they have done at Ibrox with large TV screens included.

The corner between the South and West I would fill with something like a building containing office space, or perhaps even hospitality areas for exclusive use of away fans .... this corner would also have a tunnel large enough to get construction vehicles, ambulances etc into the stadium.

The space between the FF and the East is the biggie and the skies the limit here, its huge.

If you want the club to make money from it you could build a sizeable hotel with parking space underneath it. I doubt there is a city in the UK better able to make a hotel viable than Edinburgh.

If money was no object I would build in that space in consultation with the Hibs supporters association and HSL with a view to both bodies being based in the building, the finished building would be gifted to them as their property, so that their independence from the club ( especially in the case of the HSA ) would not be compromised.

In the finished stadium at all corners the sides of the new building would form the end walls of each stand, replacing the current Perspex and giving the ground a far more intimate feel and atmosphere. The roofs of the FF and South would also be extended to reach the roofs of the East and West.

What a stadium that would be, the whole lot shouldn't cost any more than 15 million quid :greengrin

I'll vote for you if you stand for election. [emoji3]


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[Baldy Foghorn]

You're gonna' be sorry you asked mate :greengrin

The corners between the East and South and West and FF I would simply fill in as they have done at Ibrox with large TV screens included.

The corner between the South and West I would fill with something like a building containing office space, or perhaps even hospitality areas for exclusive use of away fans .... this corner would also have a tunnel large enough to get construction vehicles, ambulances etc into the stadium.

The space between the FF and the East is the biggie and the skies the limit here, its huge.

If you want the club to make money from it you could build a sizeable hotel with parking space underneath it. I doubt there is a city in the UK better able to make a hotel viable than Edinburgh.

If money was no object I would build in that space in consultation with the Hibs supporters association and HSL with a view to both bodies being based in the building, the finished building would be gifted to them as their property, so that their independence from the club ( especially in the case of the HSA ) would not be compromised.

In the finished stadium at all corners the sides of the new building would form the end walls of each stand, replacing the current Perspex and giving the ground a far more intimate feel and atmosphere. The roofs of the FF and South would also be extended to reach the roofs of the East and West.

What a stadium that would be, the whole lot shouldn't cost any more than 15 million quid :greengrin

I hope HSL have bought ticket's for Tomorrows lottery.....

[malcolm]

Not seen it mentioned anywhere but the scots govt have a consultation on supported involvement football https://consult.scotland.gov.uk/active-scotland/supporter-involvement-in-scottish-football-clubs/supporting_documents/Supporter%20Involvement%20in%20Scottish%20Football %20Clubs%20Consultation%202.pdf

Just about to close I think but sounds like it may be relevant to this discussion

[superfurryhibby]

I'm straying outside my area of expertise (never normally stops me) but I don't think HSL alone can get to 51% because individual fans have bought shares. I think the two main targets just now are 20% and 26%. At 20%, HSL are entitled to a seat on the board and at 26% they have a veto over major decisions (helipads etc).
Technically when the the combined fans groups get to 51% they can move to replace the chairman of they so wish (I think).



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Cheers Ozy.

If that's the case then it's not ideal. I believed that the individual purchases still came under the wider HSL umbrella.

The bigger question needs answered. Before anyone says it, Football is not like other businesses. It pulls on the emotional ties which have been passed on for generations. No other business would entice people to invest in it with such uncertainty around key issues. I believe that investors in Hibs are entitled to some insight as to the longer term strategy from the major shareholder, is there any reasonable basis for not providing it?

[marinello59]

Cheers Ozy.

If that's the case then it's not ideal. I believed that the individual purchases still came under the wider HSL umbrella.

The bigger question needs answered. Before anyone says it, Football is not like other businesses. It pulls on the emotional ties which have been passed on for generations. No other business would entice people to invest in it with such uncertainty around key issues. I believe that investors in Hibs are entitled to some insight as to the longer term strategy from the major shareholder, is there any reasonable basis for not providing it?

The long term strategy of the major shareholder is surely for us ( via HSL) to become the major shareholder. :confused:
I'd like to think that some sort of mechanism will be set up enabling individual shareholders to have their voting rights become part of the HSL bloc if they wanted.

[Ged]

Cheers Ozy.

If that's the case then it's not ideal. I believed that the individual purchases still came under the wider HSL umbrella.

The bigger question needs answered. Before anyone says it, Football is not like other businesses. It pulls on the emotional ties which have been passed on for generations. No other business would entice people to invest in it with such uncertainty around key issues. I believe that investors in Hibs are entitled to some insight as to the longer term strategy from the major shareholder, is there any reasonable basis for not providing it?

Why are you suddenly showing an interest? Last week you were bowling and this week you want to business strategy laid out in detail.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not sure we ever had a business strategy never mind one that was laid out in detail. I think that's why we need HSL. We need to be more involved.


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[Eyrie]

I would like to think that people would keep the direct debits going to fund the club further.


Once the 51% is reached I would like to think most of the HSL members currently paying with DD will continue the DD’s. Whether this is to continue funding extra budget for players or possibly eventually filters some of this into an emergency type fund in case we did get into deep doo doo.

HSL covered this in their FAQ (http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/faq.html) (I asked #15, which is why I remember)


15. Once the £2.5m has been raised, will HSL continue to seek the annual membership fee? If so, will this be done with a view to a subsequent share issue? If not, how will membership be determined?

No. HSL can only collect funds if there are shares to buy. Membership is for life subject to meeting the Membership criteria.

18. If I commit to paying £18.75 per month, how long does this payment need to go on for, we know the minimum is a year, but would this continue if share issue isn't fully taken up?

A. Yes. Once membership has been achieved it is for supporters to decide. If shares are still available you may choose to continue, to allow HSL to continue to increase the supporters’ stake in the Club.

So once we have 51% of the issued shares (whether as individuals or through HSL) there will be no more shares to issue and the DDs will stop. HSL would need to change their plans if they wish to continue collecting money, and the club would need to create further shares to be purchased by that extra money.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Not seen it mentioned anywhere but the scots govt have a consultation on supported involvement football https://consult.scotland.gov.uk/active-scotland/supporter-involvement-in-scottish-football-clubs/supporting_documents/Supporter%20Involvement%20in%20Scottish%20Football %20Clubs%20Consultation%202.pdf

Just about to close I think but sounds like it may be relevant to this discussion

I know I'm a stuck record on this subject:

Helping fans get power at their clubs through legislation is all well and good. There's a lot of talk about clubs being hubs of the community from the Scottish government in relation to this exercise, but exactly how are the fans of clubs like Motherwell, Dundee and Morton for example supposed to operate any sort of community beneficial programme out of crumbling stadiums.

The Scottish governments practical assistance to the betterment of Scottish professional football has amounted to the sum total of sod all as far as I can see. I started this thread because 4 or 5 years before the event I am getting a squeaky erse about the difficulties that a club with our fan base is likely to face raising the money its going to require to maintain our infrastructure.

Clubs like the ones I mentioned, with fan bases far smaller than ours, have crumbling stands and terraces they need to replace, never mind maintain, without some sort of assistance from those who are encouraging them from the wings to dive into the water I think they face a herculean task.

I for one would like the politicians to tell us all what they are going to do of a practical and tangible nature to help before they start telling us all what a good idea it is ( for folk without a pot to piss in, in football finance terms ) to be running the near bottomless money pit that is a professional football club.

Coz at the end of the day if you are a fan owned club in this country, no matter how well you cut your cloth, no matter how sensibly your accounting and fiscal responsibility is managed, its never going to be enough to build a new stand or replace a crumbling terrace, not without some outside help.

To be honest I'm getting a bit fed up of hearing our politicians banging on about what is going to be good for Scottish football and its supporters and how they are oh so willing to help ... just so long as it doesn't involve getting the purse oot of course.

[offshorehibby]

HSL covered this in their FAQ (http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/faq.html) (I asked #15, which is why I remember)


So once we have 51% of the issued shares (whether as individuals or through HSL) there will be no more shares to issue and the DDs will stop. HSL would need to change their plans if they wish to continue collecting money, and the club would need to create further shares to be purchased by that extra money.

This should not be a problem. I cannot see the 51% happening over night. Hopefully by the time we do get the 51% HSL will have developed into a body with a strong voice, with regular discussions and an elected board. The constitution can be changed once the 51 is reached.

As long as it benifits Hibs in the long run.

[superfurryhibby]

Why are you suddenly showing an interest? Last week you were bowling and this week you want to business strategy laid out in detail.

Eh, who are you? Uber fan polis?

I'm someone who has been going to see Hibs for 45 years and I've earned the right to do and say what I like.

I'll go bowling when I want and still look forwards to my third game of the season when we visit Tynecastle for the semi.

[Arch Stanton]

This should not be a problem. I cannot see the 51% happening over night. Hopefully by the time we do get the 51% HSL will have developed into a body with a strong voice, with regular discussions and an elected board. The constitution can be changed once the 51 is reached.

As long as it benifits Hibs in the long run.

I agree - there will be a desire to continue contributing past the share issue and the current constitution of HSL needn't be a barrier to that.

In fact, it needn't even be through HSL as a way for ALL fans to contribute would raise even more money I'm sure.

[lucky]

The long term strategy of the major shareholder is surely for us ( via HSL) to become the major shareholder. :confused:
I'd like to think that some sort of mechanism will be set up enabling individual shareholders to have their voting rights become part of the HSL bloc if they wanted.

Only way individual shareholders can have any influence on HSL is either becoming a member or in future handing over £225 worth of their own shares. I'm in both camps and will continue to keep hold of my Hibs shares as I love the fact I own a tiny part of the club. But I strongly believe that as supporters the best way forward is under the HSL banner or some daft Hibbie wins the Euromillions as gives us a few great seasons

[CropleyWasGod]

Only way individual shareholders can have any influence on HSL is either becoming a member or in future handing over £225 worth of their own shares. I'm in both camps and will continue to keep hold of my Hibs shares as I love the fact I own a tiny part of the club. But I strongly believe that as supporters the best way forward is under the HSL banner or some daft Hibbie wins the Euromillions as gives us a few great seasons

I'm in both camps as well.

Whilst I love the idea of HSL, I also like the independence that being an individual shareholder gives me. HSL will be an important voice, but there may be times when it doesn't reflect my own views. Whilst, of course, the majority rules, it's also healthy to have the ability to voice dissent; that can be achieved through my own holding.

[Baldy Foghorn]

I'm in both camps as well.

Whilst I love the idea of HSL, I also like the independence that being an individual shareholder gives me. HSL will be an important voice, but there may be times when it doesn't reflect my own views. Whilst, of course, the majority rules, it's also healthy to have the ability to voice dissent; that can be achieved through my own holding.

Snap............:aok:

[ancient hibee]

There are two major questions that will require to be answered before any government help to enable fan ownership of football clubs.

1. What is a football club?

2. What is a football fan?

Until a way is found to define these it'll be a lawyers paradise.

[rcarter1]

There are two major questions that will require to be answered before any government help to enable fan ownership of football clubs.

1. What is a football club?

2. What is a football fan?

Until a way is found to define these it'll be a lawyers paradise.

There should be common sense police in every court room to basically tell the lawyers when they are speaking nonsense.

[Arch Stanton]

I'm in both camps as well.

Whilst I love the idea of HSL, I also like the independence that being an individual shareholder gives me. HSL will be an important voice, but there may be times when it doesn't reflect my own views. Whilst, of course, the majority rules, it's also healthy to have the ability to voice dissent; that can be achieved through my own holding.

I agree with your dissent comment - dissension can be a pain at times but it's not unhealthy.

I'd been wondering if non-attendance might ever be an issue - would it ever be imperative to have all 51% of fans votes there and actually voting?

I suspect that it won't be a real problem though - should a hostile issue ever arise (and I can't think what that might be since we'd be covered as far as retaining the stadium) I'm sure the fans would get it together to vote it down.

A wee question for those in the know: I know the Farmer and RP have large blocks of shares but are the rest of the shares just small-holdings and are they all considered to be 'fans' shares? (Actually probably not a wee question at all).

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree with your dissent comment - dissension can be a pain at times but it's not unhealthy.

I'd been wondering if non-attendance might ever be an issue - would it ever be imperative to have all 51% of fans votes there and actually voting?

I suspect that it won't be a real problem though - should a hostile issue ever arise (and I can't think what that might be since we'd be covered as far as retaining the stadium) I'm sure the fans would get it together to vote it down.

A wee question for those in the know: I know the Farmer and RP have large blocks of shares but are the rest of the shares just small-holdings and are they all considered to be 'fans' shares? (Actually probably not a wee question at all).
The attendance issue is not really an issue. By using proxies from those who can't be there, the 51%can be achieved.

As for the Shareholders, Companies House will have a list of who they are. They're included on the Annual Return, which is publicly available.

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[greenginger]

Fan ownership and control is the way forward but everybody will need a major reality check.

The club will have to be run within a strict realistic budget and tough decisions made on player sales.

There will be no lender to bale out the club should things get messy. STF will stand back, the bank, having taken a haircut to get rid of our facility won't be providing one again any time soon, and no new sugar daddy will get involved without control.

If an decent offer comes in for one of our better players and his contract is nearing its end and he won't extend, it will be a case of taking the money and finding a replacement or losing him for nothing.

These will become our decisions and not bogeyman Petrie or anybody else's to make .

[Andy74]

There's an article in the BBC today about fan ownership and as usual Hibs aren't mentioned at all despite having one of the biggest current percentages of fan ownership.

Is this because we didn't go through a particular body that are promoting this elsewhere?

[Arch Stanton]

Fan ownership and control is the way forward but everybody will need a major reality check.

The club will have to be run within a strict realistic budget and tough decisions made on player sales.

There will be no lender to bale out the club should things get messy. STF will stand back, the bank, having taken a haircut to get rid of our facility won't be providing one again any time soon, and no new sugar daddy will get involved without control.

If an decent offer comes in for one of our better players and his contract is nearing its end and he won't extend, it will be a case of taking the money and finding a replacement or losing him for nothing.

These will become our decisions and not bogeyman Petrie or anybody else's to make .

:agree:

And I can just imagine the ructions next time we sell a player to the ugly sisters - we won't always be able to resist selling to rivals like we did with Scott Alan.

[Caversham Green]

I agree with your dissent comment - dissension can be a pain at times but it's not unhealthy.

I'd been wondering if non-attendance might ever be an issue - would it ever be imperative to have all 51% of fans votes there and actually voting?

I suspect that it won't be a real problem though - should a hostile issue ever arise (and I can't think what that might be since we'd be covered as far as retaining the stadium) I'm sure the fans would get it together to vote it down.

A wee question for those in the know: I know the Farmer and RP have large blocks of shares but are the rest of the shares just small-holdings and are they all considered to be 'fans' shares? (Actually probably not a wee question at all).

Slightly pedantic, but in theory it could be important - STF and Rod don't own any shares in the club, they own shares in HFC Holdings Ltd (being more pedantic, only Rod owns shares in that company) and HFC owns a block of shares in the club. That means broadly that they jointly have one heavily weighted vote on any issue. It also means that HFC could be sold to a third party but the 51% weighting would mean that we would be unlikely to 'benefit' from any mad Russians or off-the radar billionaires.

The remaining shares prior to the current issues only amounted to 2% of the total shareholding and were held by a large number of individuals (I think around 1,700) so were small holdings pretty much by definition. The new shares were offered only to existing shareholders and HSL so it's pretty safe to assume that they will ultimately be owned by fans to a great extent.

Like you, I can't envisage many issues that would go to a vote where there would be major disagreement between HFC and the fan shareholders - maybe development or sale of East Mains could raise some controversy. In fact I think the presence of two fan representatives on the board, with the prospect of a third from HSL is a far more important feature because they represent a voice in the day-to day running of the club.

[0762]

Like you, I can't envisage many issues that would go to a vote where there would be major disagreement between HFC and the fan shareholders - maybe development or sale of East Mains could raise some controversy. In fact I think the presence of two fan representatives on the board, with the prospect of a third from HSL is a far more important feature because they represent a voice in the day-to day running of the club.

Is Stephen Dunn not the HSL rep on the Board already - seems to be listed on HSL Website and the Official Site.

[Ozyhibby]

Is Stephen Dunn not the HSL rep on the Board already - seems to be listed on HSL Website and the Official Site.

Think it's the other way round. He and Leeann are Hibs reps on HSL board.


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[0762]

Think it's the other way round. He and Leeann are Hibs reps on HSL board.


Just checked back. He was on HSL at the launch but only came back on the Club Board last summer.
Either way not sure that it matters as I believe he has a pretty good Hibs pedigree.