Mass New Year attacks in Cologne - where's the Media Outcry?

[Keith_M]

Up to one thousand men, of Arabic and North African appearance, made what appeared to be organised attacks on many people at New Year in Cologne.

They arrived in large groups by train at the main train station. Many young women on the trains had been robbed and/or sexually asualted by these groups.

These men spend the rest of the evening firing 'rockets' (the firework kind) into groups of new year celebrants, mainly as a distraction for robbing them and commiting further multiple acts of sexual assaults.


Why has this not garnered News Coverage befitting this horrendous occurence?

:confused:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

[Hibrandenburg]

Is it only horrendous because it was carried out by foreigners?

The Octoberfest has similar dark incidents that mainly go under the radar with on average 20 rapes per year being reported and an estimated 200 that don't get reported to the police.

However harrowing these events are please let's not forget that sexual abuse of woman is pandemic in nearly all cultures not least of all our own.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is it only horrendous because it was carried out by foreigners?

The Octoberfest has similar dark incidents that mainly go under the radar with on average 20 rapes per year being reported and an estimated 200 that don't get reported to the police.

However harrowing these events are please let's not forget that sexual abuse of woman is pandemic in nearly all cultures not least of all our own.

Yes because this is common at previous New Year celebrations and has nothing at all to do with mass immigration of middle eastern / north african muslim men - I am being sarcastic.

[Greenworld]

Is it only horrendous because it was carried out by foreigners?

The Octoberfest has similar dark incidents that mainly go under the radar with on average 20 rapes per year being reported and an estimated 200 that don't get reported to the police.

However harrowing these events are please let's not forget that sexual abuse of woman is pandemic in nearly all cultures not least of all our own.
What kind of comment is that you are making it is typical behaviour we have come to expect from immigrants if that is clear....Animals

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[Hibrandenburg]

Yes because this is common at previous New Year celebrations and has nothing at all to do with mass immigration of middle eastern / north african muslim men - I am being sarcastic.

You make it sound like I'm condoning it but I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that sexual harassment and worse is not something unique to immigrants but as is always the case when a crime is committed by immigrants, it then becomes headline material and used to tar all immigrants with the same brush.

Using the same logic you could assume that due to the findings of operation yewtree that all Brits are pedophiles because of the action of a few but that would also be ridiculous.

[Hibrandenburg]

What kind of comment is that you are making it is typical behaviour we have come to expect from immigrants if that is clear....Animals

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See above post. Also maybe you've come to expect that kind of behaviour from immigrants but my personal experience tells me otherwise.

[Jack]

You make it sound like I'm condoning it but I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that sexual harassment and worse is not something unique to immigrants but as is always the case when a crime is committed by immigrants, it then becomes headline material and used to tar all immigrants with the same brush.

Using the same logic you could assume that due to the findings of operation yewtree that all Brits are pedophiles because of the action of a few but that would also be ridiculous.

To be fair this is the first time I've ever heard of a gang of 1,000 doing planned raping and pillaging since the days of the Vikings.

That's the story.

[Hibrandenburg]

To be fair this is the first time I've ever heard of a gang of 1,000 doing planned raping and pillaging since the days of the Vikings.

That's the story.

Now that would be news, however the police in Cologne are reporting it was a group of between 2 and 40 drunken men aged between 20 and 40 who were touching women up to distract them while they were robbed. Now it's bad enough but it's not rape and pillage and as usual it's being blown completely out of proportion by the press, now why would they do something like that?

[Rasta_Hibs]

You make it sound like I'm condoning it but I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that sexual harassment and worse is not something unique to immigrants but as is always the case when a crime is committed by immigrants, it then becomes headline material and used to tar all immigrants with the same brush.

Using the same logic you could assume that due to the findings of operation yewtree that all Brits are pedophiles because of the action of a few but that would also be ridiculous.

No using your logic there is absolutely no problem with mass immigration of muslim men from middle east & north Africa. No no problem at all.

I think the events in Germany are a direct result of this kind of mass migration of these kind of people.

I don't think all muslims are rapists just like I don't think all Britons are pedos. That Is stupid.

But there is problem that I don't think you or the lefty liberals are willing to face.

[Hibrandenburg]

No using your logic there is absolutely no problem with mass immigration of muslim men from middle east & north Africa. No no problem at all.

I think the events in Germany are a direct result of this kind of mass migration of these kind of people.

I don't think all muslims are rapists just like I don't think all Britons are pedos. That Is stupid.

But there is problem that I don't think you or the lefty liberals are willing to face.

I think you secretly want it to be about immigration instead of criminality.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I think you secretly want it to be about immigration instead of criminality.

No not at all I have been dragged into this view point from the current events.

[Pete]

Up to one thousand men, of Arabic and North African appearance, made what appeared to be organised attacks on many people at New Year in Cologne.

They arrived in large groups by train at the main train station. Many young women on the trains had been robbed and/or sexually asualted by these groups.

These men spend the rest of the evening firing 'rockets' (the firework kind) into groups of new year celebrants, mainly as a distraction for robbing them and commiting further multiple acts of sexual assaults.


Why has this not garnered News Coverage befitting this horrendous occurence?

:confused:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046

Why is there no outcry?

That's obvious. If you even suggest that it might be something to do with immigration/the culture of some Muslim countries then you will be set upon by the ultra left who will suggest you are being a little bit racist.

Balance is the key here. Some media reports are undoubtedly exaggerated but there are probably ones that are also underplaying events to "keep the peace". The police have been accused of doing just that and the Mayor of Cologne has suggested that people should have maybe kept at arms length!

There should be no taboos when it comes to such debates. We learned the hard way when Muslim paedophile gangs, yes, Muslim paedophile gangs were going unchecked because people were scared to even suggest any links between their culture/religion and their crimes.

[Hibrandenburg]

The thing I find absolutely crazy about the whole refugee crisis is that suddenly my political viewpoint (which hasn't changed) is now seen by many as looney left. I've always considered myself as left of centre and have been amazed that people who I thought were socialists have in reality only really held socialist values towards what happens within this nation and to benefit this nation. I guess that makes them national socialists.

[McD]

The thing I find absolutely crazy about the whole refugee crisis is that suddenly my political viewpoint (which hasn't changed) is now seen by many as looney left. I've always considered myself as left of centre and have been amazed that people who I thought were socialists have in reality only really held socialist values towards what happens within this nation and to benefit this nation. I guess that makes them national socialists.


I agree with much you've said on this thread.

i wonder how many will see the connection (and meaning) of your last sentence, and how there's a parallel of blame from that group towards another, in this case immigrants.

[Pete]

I agree with much you've said on this thread.

i wonder how many will see the connection (and meaning) of your last sentence, and how there's a parallel of blame from that group towards another, in this case immigrants.

So those that ask questions based on empirical evidence (or even a cross section of media reports) are now being compared to nazis if they hold socialist views?

Open debate is what's needed, not labeling and counter - labeling.

[(((Fergus)))]

Because the media, academia, politicians, and other experts have been telling us a particular story for many years and if there is one thing opinion-formers cannot stand it is admitting they were wrong.

[DH1875]

Now that would be news, however the police in Cologne are reporting it was a group of between 2 and 40 drunken men aged between 20 and 40 who were touching women up to distract them while they were robbed. Now it's bad enough but it's not rape and pillage and as usual it's being blown completely out of proportion by the press, now why would they do something like that?

According to the press over here it was a group of 1000 men. I've heard of things getting blown out of proportion but to go from 20/40 men to 1000 men is a bit much. IF there was anything close to that amount then the story is a story no matter the race or colour of the men involved.

[Ronniekirk]

Well it was on news at ten tonight and there have been protests in Germany One victim was interviewed but does sound like it was originally being brushed under the carpet by the authorities and played down



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[Moulin Yarns]

According to the press over here it was a group of 1000 men. I've heard of things getting blown out of proportion but to go from 20/40 men to 1000 men is a bit much. IF there was anything close to that amount then the story is a story no matter the race or colour of the men involved.

Maybe both are true.


A crowd of about 1,000 men had gathered in the square outside the main railway station on New Year's Eve, letting off fireworks. Many were drunk and aggressive.Police eventually evacuated the area because of the risk of injury from the fireworks.
But gangs of youths soon returned and carried out dozens of attacks over a number of hours with little apparent response from the local authorities until well after midnight.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The thing I find absolutely crazy about the whole refugee crisis is that suddenly my political viewpoint (which hasn't changed) is now seen by many as looney left. I've always considered myself as left of centre and have been amazed that people who I thought were socialists have in reality only really held socialist values towards what happens within this nation and to benefit this nation. I guess that makes them national socialists.

I think this is key here in bold.

When the many decent people who are not racist but can clearly see the many problems associated with this kind of mass immigration and have major concerns about it then reading the response from yourself and other ultra left minded people - Then to me and the many do see it is a looney left viewpoint and that is being polite.

[Moulin Yarns]

The thing I find absolutely crazy about the whole refugee crisis is that suddenly my political viewpoint (which hasn't changed) is now seen by many as looney left. I've always considered myself as left of centre and have been amazed that people who I thought were socialists have in reality only really held socialist values towards what happens within this nation and to benefit this nation. I guess that makes them national socialists.


I think this is key here in bold.

When the many decent people who are not racist but can clearly see the many problems associated with this kind of mass immigration and have major concerns about it then reading the response from yourself and other ultra left minded people - Then to me and the many do see it is a looney left viewpoint and that is being polite.

There is the difference in views that needs to be highlighted!!! In Bold

The 'Looney Left' is rightly concerned about the refugees. Those further right equates refugees, in need of help, as mass immigration.

[Rasta_Hibs]

There is the difference in views that needs to be highlighted!!! In Bold

The 'Looney Left' is rightly concerned about the refugees. Those further right equates refugees, in need of help, as mass immigration.

Your wrong I can tell the difference and so can others. Im all for helping genuine refugee! The left has no moral high ground here! They are part of the problem in my opinion.

[Moulin Yarns]

Your wrong I can tell the difference and so can others. Im all for helping genuine refugee! The left has no moral high ground here! They are part of the problem in my opinion.

There has always been a large immigrant population in German.

For example:


According to the census 2011 there are almost 3 million people having at least one parent immigrated from Turkey. In 2013, there were 1,550,000 Turkish citizens in Germany which accounted for 22.1% of Germany's foreign population and thus the largest ethnic minority

The inference from reports of the assaults is that they were carried out by North Africans or Arabs is to link them with refugees from Libya and Syria.


Police have said the men appeared to have been coordinated, comparing their modus operandi to that of criminal gangs that have operated in strength for several years in the area and turning it into a place many Cologners avoid after dark

This suggests to me it has been going on before the current influx of refugees, or in your words, 'mass immigration'

[Rasta_Hibs]

There has always been a large immigrant population in German.

For example:



The inference from reports of the assaults is that they were carried out by North Africans or Arabs is to link them with refugees from Libya and Syria.



This suggests to me it has been going on before the current influx of refugees, or in your words, 'mass immigration'

There is mass immigration! Have you checked the numbers of muslim people on the move?

[Moulin Yarns]

There is mass immigration! Have you checked the numbers of muslim people on the move?

And you know they were responsible for he assaults in Germany, how?

:rolleyes:

[Rasta_Hibs]

And you know they were responsible for he assaults in Germany, how?

:rolleyes:

The victims statements that I have read?

[Moulin Yarns]

The victims statements that I have read?

So, Now, according to you, only Muslim men, by being part of mass immigration, are responsible for assaults on women in Germany at New Year.

Where is the proof?? :rolleyes:


those allegedly responsible for the sex attacks and numerous robberies were of Arab and north African origin


The crimes were committed by a group of people who from appearance were largely from the north African or Arab world

and


Officers are working on the assumption that the men had organised their plan of attack. They said many of the perpetrators were known to them and some may have been asylum seekers, though not new arrivals

Now, can you let it rest until the perpetrators are charged?

[Hibrandenburg]

There is mass immigration! Have you checked the numbers of muslim people on the move?

I'll repeat my original question. Why is it more horrendous when such crimes are committed by immigrants?

Crimes of this nature are being committed all around the world by all different kinds of people, why only the sudden disgust when it's allegedly immigrants that are the perpetrators?

[NAE NOOKIE]

The story here is the number of people involved in this and the co-ordinated nature of the crime.

More than one of the victims and many other eye witnesses have described the numbers involved as around a thousand, even if it was half that its still a major organised crime. Every victim and eye witness has given the same account of what happened and who was responsible.

As a self confessed left wing liberal this makes me despair. Whether these people were recent immigrants or not doesn't matter, the fact is that the crime involved what was in effect a mass disgusting pre planned sexual assault carried out by ( lets face it ) Muslim men, or at least men from the muslim community. The fact that 99% of Germany's muslim population will be horrified by the incident isn't going to matter.

If the German right wing had shoved a letter to Santa up the chimney on Christmas eve with a wish list of what they wanted in their stocking an incident like this would have been top of the list. I find it utterly incredible that a community in the midst of what is near enough a life or death struggle to win hearts and minds in Europe could contain such a large number of people willing to participate in a crime of this nature and magnitude. I mean, just how f...ing stupid do you have to be?

Others on this thread have pointed out that sexual assaults and rape are not uncommon at some of the bigger German festivals. I'm sure that's true, but I'm also sure that they are isolated attacks by one or two individuals in each incident ... not a pre planned mass attack at the same time and place, and that is what makes this situation incredibly explosive.

Like it or not, stuff like this is a disaster for the muslim community, refugees and asylum seekers in general and makes bloody idiots of those of us trying to defend a position that there is no danger to the fabric of society by being as liberal as possible when it comes to allowing large amounts of refugees into Europe.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I'll repeat my original question. Why is it more horrendous when such crimes are committed by immigrants?

Crimes of this nature are being committed all around the world by all different kinds of people, why only the sudden disgust when it's allegedly immigrants that are the perpetrators?

The same old tired out dated view point from the left!

[Moulin Yarns]

The same old tired out dated view point from the left!

:kettle:

[snooky]

The trouble is that the Press overeggagerate reports for a headline and we are almost at the point that, if and when they do print the truth, it will be viewed as having no credibility or substance. It's the old cry wolf syndrome.

We are crying out for a non-political & honest News base telling it like it is.
Obviously there's not a hope in hell of there ever being one.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I'll repeat my original question. Why is it more horrendous when such crimes are committed by immigrants?

Crimes of this nature are being committed all around the world by all different kinds of people, why only the sudden disgust when it's allegedly immigrants that are the perpetrators?

I don't think that's the point though. The trouble is that crimes like this give ammunition to those who want to paint the muslim community as having little or no regard for ( for want of a better phrase ) European women.

In Doncaster not one of the victims was a muslim girl, but all of the perpetrators were muslim men .... there is no doubt that for cultural reasons non muslim girls were an easier target, but the fact remains that the gang were clearly of the opinion that non muslim girls were sluts anyway so didn't need to be held in the same regard as muslim girls.

"Crimes of this nature" may well be committed all around the world, but I for one have never heard of an incident like this one happening before in Europe ...... I think the outrage is, and would be, genuine irrespective of who was responsible immigrants or not, to suggest its only because the criminals were 'non European' is to my mind ridiculous. Like it or not the fact is that this was committed by a huge gang of men who were by all accounts incomers to Germany and almost certainly muslim, to many this will point to the same sort of attitude to German girls by these men as the perverts in Doncaster had to English girls.

I am not suggesting for a second that there is any thought in the wider muslim community that what happened in Doncaster or Germany is anything other than totally unacceptable, but I guarantee you that the right wing will do their best to push the theory that all muslim men see non muslim women as 'fair game' purely based on the fact that they are just that 'non muslim'

It will not take many more incidents of this nature to drive otherwise rational members of the German public into the arms of Pegida or worse. Its all very well folk like me saying "look, the vast majority of muslims aren't like these men" ...... but when a community can put together a group of hundreds of men who all seem to think its ok to use sexual assault as a tactic in a systematic mugging spree, its bloody difficult to put that argument from a position of strength.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think that's the point though. The trouble is that crimes like this give ammunition to those who want to paint the muslim community as having little or no regard for ( for want of a better phrase ) European women.

In Doncaster not one of the victims was a muslim girl, but all of the perpetrators were muslim men .... there is no doubt that for cultural reasons non muslim girls were an easier target, but the fact remains that the gang were clearly of the opinion that non muslim girls were sluts anyway so didn't need to be held in the same regard as muslim girls.

"Crimes of this nature" may well be committed all around the world, but I for one have never heard of an incident like this one happening before in Europe ...... I think the outrage is, and would be, genuine irrespective of who was responsible immigrants or not, to suggest its only because the criminals were 'non European' is to my mind ridiculous. Like it or not the fact is that this was committed by a huge gang of men who were by all accounts incomers to Germany and almost certainly muslim, to many this will point to the same sort of attitude to German girls by these men as the perverts in Doncaster had to English girls.

I am not suggesting for a second that there is any thought in the wider muslim community that what happened in Doncaster or Germany is anything other than totally unacceptable, but I guarantee you that the right wing will do their best to push the theory that all muslim men see non muslim women as 'fair game' purely based on the fact that they are just that 'non muslim'

It will not take many more incidents of this nature to drive otherwise rational members of the German public into the arms of Pegida or worse. Its all very well folk like me saying "look, the vast majority of muslims aren't like these men" ...... but when a community can put together a group of hundreds of men who all seem to think its ok to use sexual assault as a tactic in a systematic mugging spree, its bloody difficult to put that argument from a position of strength.

Sex criminals will always find an excuse to justify their deeds. What about the European pedophiles who descend upon places like Bangkok to take advantage of children who they think are easy pickings or Christian missionaries who abused children not only in developing countries but also a lot closer to home? It's not only racist but also extremely naive to say that Islam condones or allows sexual predators to thrive when our own culture has turned a blind eye and quickly forgotten our own recent past. I stand by my point that the Muslim world is no better or worse than our own but we do like to point the finger and blame them all when a tiny minority are found to be bad apples.

[Pete]

Sex criminals will always find an excuse to justify their deeds. What about the European pedophiles who descend upon places like Bangkok to take advantage of children who they think are easy pickings or Christian missionaries who abused children not only in developing countries but also a lot closer to home? It's not only racist but also extremely naive to say that Islam condones or allows sexual predators to thrive when our own culture has turned a blind eye and quickly forgotten our own recent past. I stand by my point that the Muslim world is no better or worse than our own but we do like to point the finger and blame them all when a tiny minority are found to be bad apples.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Islam itself condones or allows sexual predators to thrive and it's ridiculous to think that a certain race or religion naturally has a higher percentage of beasts. Looking at the bigger picture, you're probably right when you say we are no better than the Muslim world.

A lot of us look East and see Muslims and the "Muslim world" in general and this is pretty much the same as someone looking west and seeing the "Christian world". Even if we were to narrow it down a bit you could still decide to look at a "catholic world"...yet the cultures in Brazil, Ireland and Italy are different to say the least. The Islamic countries, while having a stronger base in religion, have their own individual culture and societal norms.

However, I think there are differences in the way women are viewed comparing a modern western society with certain Islamic ones. Women are regarded extremely highly in Islam but certain cultures believe God commanded women to cover up to some extent to maintain modesty. Far from being repressed, the veiled, modest woman's status is elevated and sanctified. This therefore means that women who don't cover up are of lesser status and those who are non believers who dress in a western fashion are even further down the ladder. This might be purely an afterthought for most but for the young man who's not quite as tolerant and full of hormones? How do they react coming from a semi conservative society into one surrounded by these women who might be considered less worthy of respect back home?

The same factors were probably at work when it came to the abuse in England. The only way the "Muslim" link was directly relevant was that it was a common trait and could have helped bring the perpetrators to justice sooner. The most important common trait was that these were men who had no respect for western women, tried to abuse some girls and carried on after they found out they could get away with it. A lot of people thought that the answer lied in the Muslim community and it had to look at itself but to me it's young men taking what they want from a second-hand culture that is based on a religion.

I too believe that we are all the same deep down and really admire your stance but it's sticking your head in the sand to think there are definately no cultural issues to be ironed out here. Saying "ach, we're all like this" and ignoring people's grievances is actually doing everyone a disservice, especially the immigrants/asylum seekers/refugees. Maybe this is evidence that there are indeed incompatibilities and stronger measures need to be taken to ensure that people adhere to European/western rules and ways of living. This could be evidence of the failure of the workings of the asylum system. Are young men left in limbo for too long with no hope and nothing to do, resulting in resentment?

These German incidents probably had more to do with mob mentality, crime and drink than they had to do with a common culture and lack of respect for women but I hope that the relevant people are gathering all the evidence and discussing all the aspects.

[Pete]

I've heard of things getting blown out of proportion but to go from 20/40 men to 1000 men is a bit much.

Crowds getting blown out of proportion...stealing...sex crimes...speaking a funny language....




North Africans getting the blame when it's clearly Hearts fans.

[Dinkydoo]

There are also reports of organised sexual assualt happening on Hogmanay in Kalmar, Sweden.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Islam itself condones or allows sexual predators to thrive and it's ridiculous to think that a certain race or religion naturally has a higher percentage of beasts. Looking at the bigger picture, you're probably right when you say we are no better than the Muslim world.

A lot of us look East and see Muslims and the "Muslim world" in general and this is pretty much the same as someone looking west and seeing the "Christian world". Even if we were to narrow it down a bit you could still decide to look at a "catholic world"...yet the cultures in Brazil, Ireland and Italy are different to say the least. The Islamic countries, while having a stronger base in religion, have their own individual culture and societal norms.

However, I think there are differences in the way women are viewed comparing a modern western society with certain Islamic ones. Women are regarded extremely highly in Islam but certain cultures believe God commanded women to cover up to some extent to maintain modesty. Far from being repressed, the veiled, modest woman's status is elevated and sanctified. This therefore means that women who don't cover up are of lesser status and those who are non believers who dress in a western fashion are even further down the ladder. This might be purely an afterthought for most but for the young man who's not quite as tolerant and full of hormones? How do they react coming from a semi conservative society into one surrounded by these women who might be considered less worthy of respect back home?

The same factors were probably at work when it came to the abuse in England. The only way the "Muslim" link was directly relevant was that it was a common trait and could have helped bring the perpetrators to justice sooner. The most important common trait was that these were men who had no respect for western women, tried to abuse some girls and carried on after they found out they could get away with it. A lot of people thought that the answer lied in the Muslim community and it had to look at itself but to me it's young men taking what they want from a second-hand culture that is based on a religion.

I too believe that we are all the same deep down and really admire your stance but it's sticking your head in the sand to think there are definately no cultural issues to be ironed out here. Saying "ach, we're all like this" and ignoring people's grievances is actually doing everyone a disservice, especially the immigrants/asylum seekers/refugees. Maybe this is evidence that there are indeed incompatibilities and stronger measures need to be taken to ensure that people adhere to European/western rules and ways of living. This could be evidence of the failure of the workings of the asylum system. Are young men left in limbo for too long with no hope and nothing to do, resulting in resentment?

These German incidents probably had more to do with mob mentality, crime and drink than they had to do with a common culture and lack of respect for women but I hope that the relevant people are gathering all the evidence and discussing all the aspects.

Good post and I agree that the gulf is more than likely a cultural one rather than religious. I also agree that mob mentality probably had a hand in the escalation of the incident. However from what I'm reading here it looks more like the motivating factor was theft. I'm sure the police will get to the bottom of it and hope that all the perpetrators feel the full force of the law when caught. Time will tell.

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

There are also reports of organised sexual assual happening on Hogmanay in Kalmar, Sweden.

Finland and Switzerland too according to BBC News.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Finland and Switzerland too according to BBC News.

Happens every year and what's the problem? Have you seen what the Finnish & Swiss people do in other countries when seeking refuge? Just as bad - heck I don't see why these women even bother going to the Police - it happens everywhere! We are all the same...

[Rasta_Hibs]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/cologne-new-year-sex-attacks-germanys-women-are-angry-scared---a/

Not just theft as described above by a previous poster.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/two-teenage-girls-gangraped-by-four-syrian-nationals-in-southern-germany-34345960.html

Deport every last one of these criminals!

Ill say it now we will regret the day we let so many muslim men into the EU and the west! I don't care for the political correctness.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Sex criminals will always find an excuse to justify their deeds. What about the European pedophiles who descend upon places like Bangkok to take advantage of children who they think are easy pickings or Christian missionaries who abused children not only in developing countries but also a lot closer to home? It's not only racist but also extremely naive to say that Islam condones or allows sexual predators to thrive when our own culture has turned a blind eye and quickly forgotten our own recent past. I stand by my point that the Muslim world is no better or worse than our own but we do like to point the finger and blame them all when a tiny minority are found to be bad apples.

I was playing Devil's advocate mate, not putting forward my own an opinion as such. My post was my thoughts on how the wider public are going to react, not particularly my own reaction.

But here's the problem with the situation and I think its a valid take on how things could pan out in the near future:

As you correctly state, in a historical and modern context 'the west' is hardly in a position to cast the first stone ..... In which case some would ask, why should we add fuel to the fire by 'importing' people who are adding to the problem?

We all know that it is the nature of people, the ordinary man in the street, call it what you will to eventually develop a mob mentality in certain situations and certainly to tar an entire people or culture with the same brush, history is littered with examples. No matter how irrational eventually people stop listening to reason and instead look at all of the bad and none of the good.

9/11 .... 3,000 killed ......... These people don't represent muslims
7/7 .... 52 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
Doncaster ... These people don't represent muslims
The Bali bombings ... 202 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ... shooting a child in the head for wanting to go to school .... these people don't represent muslims
Boko Haram .... kidnapping 300 schoolgirls and sending some of them into slavery .... these people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ( again ) .... 132 school children massacred in Peshawar Pakistan .... these people don't represent muslims
Al Shabaab .... 67 people massacred in Nairobi while out shopping .... these people don't represent muslims
Lee Rigby .... these people don't represent muslims
Mumbai attacks .... 164 people killed .... these people don't represent muslims
Charlie Hebdo ... 12 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Paris ... 130 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Cologne attacks ..... these people don't represent muslims
ISIS in general .... genocide, slavery, sexual slavery, beheadings, burning people to death, cultural vandalism ... these people don't represent muslims
The next attack in Europe, possibly in the UK, and there will be one ...... these people don't represent muslims

The truth? .......... no, these people don't represent muslims .... there are a billion muslims and for every single nutter there is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 who wish they would just stop.

The reality? ...... The more incidents there are like Paris or Cologne the more people will chuck fairness and rational thought out of the window. When somebody says 'These people don't represent muslims' what they will hear is blah, blah, blah. Human beings eventually end up acting like they would after being stung by a Wasp in these circumstances .... when they find the nest they don't go looking for the Wasp that stung them, they destroy the whole nest ....... that's what human beings are like and I for one wonder how long its going to be before they revert to type if more stuff like this happens.

[Hibrandenburg]

I was playing Devil's advocate mate, not putting forward my own an opinion as such. My post was my thoughts on how the wider public are going to react, not particularly my own reaction.

But here's the problem with the situation and I think its a valid take on how things could pan out in the near future:

As you correctly state, in a historical and modern context 'the west' is hardly in a position to cast the first stone ..... In which case some would ask, why should we add fuel to the fire by 'importing' people who are adding to the problem?

We all know that it is the nature of people, the ordinary man in the street, call it what you will to eventually develop a mob mentality in certain situations and certainly to tar an entire people or culture with the same brush, history is littered with examples. No matter how irrational eventually people stop listening to reason and instead look at all of the bad and none of the good.

9/11 .... 3,000 killed ......... These people don't represent muslims
7/7 .... 52 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
Doncaster ... These people don't represent muslims
The Bali bombings ... 202 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ... shooting a child in the head for wanting to go to school .... these people don't represent muslims
Boko Haram .... kidnapping 300 schoolgirls and sending some of them into slavery .... these people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ( again ) .... 132 school children massacred in Peshawar Pakistan .... these people don't represent muslims
Al Shabaab .... 67 people massacred in Nairobi while out shopping .... these people don't represent muslims
Lee Rigby .... these people don't represent muslims
Mumbai attacks .... 164 people killed .... these people don't represent muslims
Charlie Hebdo ... 12 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Paris ... 130 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Cologne attacks ..... these people don't represent muslims
ISIS in general .... genocide, slavery, sexual slavery, beheadings, burning people to death, cultural vandalism ... these people don't represent muslims
The next attack in Europe, possibly in the UK, and there will be one ...... these people don't represent muslims

The truth? .......... no, these people don't represent muslims .... there are a billion muslims and for every single nutter there is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 who wish they would just stop.

The reality? ...... The more incidents there are like Paris or Cologne the more people will chuck fairness and rational thought out of the window. When somebody says 'These people don't represent muslims' what they will hear is blah, blah, blah. Human beings eventually end up acting like they would after being stung by a Wasp in these circumstances .... when they find the nest they don't go looking for the Wasp that stung them, they destroy the whole nest ....... that's what human beings are like and I for one wonder how long its going to be before they revert to type if more stuff like this happens.

Can't argue with any of that and it describes quite well the mindset of the German people in the lead up to the 2nd World War. This might sound very self-righteous but I'd like to think many people including myself are above that and can see the method in the madness of the minds of the terrorists. They're relying on us doing exactly that what you describe in your post and it's already working judging by the reaction of the masses including some on here.

[Moulin Yarns]

I was playing Devil's advocate mate, not putting forward my own an opinion as such. My post was my thoughts on how the wider public are going to react, not particularly my own reaction.

But here's the problem with the situation and I think its a valid take on how things could pan out in the near future:

As you correctly state, in a historical and modern context 'the west' is hardly in a position to cast the first stone ..... In which case some would ask, why should we add fuel to the fire by 'importing' people who are adding to the problem?

We all know that it is the nature of people, the ordinary man in the street, call it what you will to eventually develop a mob mentality in certain situations and certainly to tar an entire people or culture with the same brush, history is littered with examples. No matter how irrational eventually people stop listening to reason and instead look at all of the bad and none of the good.

9/11 .... 3,000 killed ......... These people don't represent muslims
7/7 .... 52 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
Doncaster ... These people don't represent muslims
The Bali bombings ... 202 killed ... These people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ... shooting a child in the head for wanting to go to school .... these people don't represent muslims
Boko Haram .... kidnapping 300 schoolgirls and sending some of them into slavery .... these people don't represent muslims
The Taliban ( again ) .... 132 school children massacred in Peshawar Pakistan .... these people don't represent muslims
Al Shabaab .... 67 people massacred in Nairobi while out shopping .... these people don't represent muslims
Lee Rigby .... these people don't represent muslims
Mumbai attacks .... 164 people killed .... these people don't represent muslims
Charlie Hebdo ... 12 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Paris ... 130 killed ..... these people don't represent muslims
Cologne attacks ..... these people don't represent muslims
ISIS in general .... genocide, slavery, sexual slavery, beheadings, burning people to death, cultural vandalism ... these people don't represent muslims
The next attack in Europe, possibly in the UK, and there will be one ...... these people don't represent muslims

The truth? .......... no, these people don't represent muslims .... there are a billion muslims and for every single nutter there is 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 who wish they would just stop.

The reality? ...... The more incidents there are like Paris or Cologne the more people will chuck fairness and rational thought out of the window. When somebody says 'These people don't represent muslims' what they will hear is blah, blah, blah. Human beings eventually end up acting like they would after being stung by a Wasp in these circumstances .... when they find the nest they don't go looking for the Wasp that stung them, they destroy the whole nest ....... that's what human beings are like and I for one wonder how long its going to be before they revert to type if more stuff like this happens.

The two posts immediately above your post represents this perfectly.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The two posts immediately above your post represents this perfectly.


That is right because it's plain to see the fault and the real problems lay with people with my views or ones like me!

Ship us out too and replace us all with Syrians and north Africans you can live in peace with contentment in your liberal dream land with your brothers in the struggle.

[easty]

That is right because it's plain to see its really the fault of people with my views or ones like me!

Ship us out too and replace us all with Syrians and north Africans you can live as in in your liberal dream land with your brothers in the struggle.

:crazy:

If nothing else, you have at least made me laugh.

[Rasta_Hibs]

:crazy:

If nothing else, you have at least made me laugh.

Haha i am glad as that's about the only thing that's been worthwhile about the thread.

[Future17]

That is right because it's plain to see the fault and the real problems lay with people with my views or ones like me!

Ship us out too and replace us all with Syrians and north Africans you can live in peace with contentment in your liberal dream land with your brothers in the struggle.

Having just read this thread in its entirety, I'm confused as to who you think is to blame? Are you blaming Muslims, immigrants, or a specific nationality? Because they're not all the same thing.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Having just read this thread in its entirety, I'm confused as to who you think is to blame? Are you blaming Muslims, immigrants, or a specific nationality? Because they're not all the same thing.

Men who are muslim and have arrived into the EU as migrants. The same ones who have little regard for Western values. The same men who should be fighting for their own country and no here sexually abusing or raping our women, stealing and claiming refuge.

Clear enough?

[Moulin Yarns]

That is right because it's plain to see the fault and the real problems lay with people with my views or ones like me!

Ship us out too and replace us all with Syrians and north Africans you can live in peace with contentment in your liberal dream land with your brothers in the struggle.

I take it the irony of your name is lost on you?

rasta ‎(plural rastas)



belonging to an originally Jamaican sect regarding Blacks as chosen people, and the Jamaican national colors and the leaf of the marajuana plant as symbols.

[Moulin Yarns]

Men who are muslim and have arrived into the EU as migrants. The same ones who have little regard for Western values. The same men who should be fighting for their own country and no here sexually abusing or raping our women, stealing and claiming refuge.

Clear enough?


tar somebody with the same brushto believe wrongly that someone or something has the same bad qualities as someone or something that is similar

[Rasta_Hibs]

tar somebody with the same brush

to believe wrongly that someone or something has the same bad qualities as someone or something that is similar

At no point have I said all Muslims! That's what you want me to think.

[Moulin Yarns]

At no point have I said all Muslims! That's what you want me to think.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/cologne-new-year-sex-attacks-germanys-women-are-angry-scared---a/

Not just theft as described above by a previous poster.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/two-teenage-girls-gangraped-by-four-syrian-nationals-in-southern-germany-34345960.html

Deport every last one of these criminals!

Ill say it now we will regret the day we let so many muslim men into the EU and the west! I don't care for the political correctness.

No, but the implication is in every one of your White supremacist tinged posts.

[Rasta_Hibs]

No, but the implication is in every one of your White supremacist tinged posts.

Im not a white supremist! If there is an ideology that is supremist then It could be said about the Islamic one? Would you agree?

[Northernhibee]

Im not a white supremist! If there is an ideology that is supremist then It could be said about the Islamic one? Would you agree?

I know several muslim men up in Aberdeen and Dundee. I think you're talking utter bigoted bollocks.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I know several muslim men up in Aberdeen and Dundee. I think you're talking utter bigoted bollocks.

I work with some and knew a few personally - the big deal is?

[Northernhibee]

I work with some and knew a few personally - the big deal is?

The deal is that you're talking *****.

[Rasta_Hibs]

The deal is that you're talking *****.

Which parts exactly or all of it?

What are your views on whats happening? Apart from thinking mines is bollox lol

[Sylar]

Men who are muslim and have arrived into the EU as migrants. The same ones who have little regard for Western values. The same men who should be fighting for their own country and no here sexually abusing or raping our women, stealing and claiming refuge.

Clear enough?

What about home-grown Muslims who perpetrate attacks? What about Muslim men committing horrific acts of rape/theft in their own countries - where's the outcry about that? Or the thousands of women who are raped here every year, statistically most likely to be by someone they know rather than some EU Muslim migrant, who don't get justice? Where's the outcry about that? Or the millions of women across the world who are raped and too afraid to speak up for fear of false-accusation/reprisals? Where's your outcry for them?

Your binary approach to a complex issue is making you sound like a bigot, even if you're not. There's no simple answer here, despite what Donald Trump would have everybody believe.

[Rasta_Hibs]

What about home-grown Muslims who perpetrate attacks? What about Muslim men committing horrific acts of rape/theft in their own countries - where's the outcry about that? Or the thousands of women who are raped here every year, statistically most likely to be by someone they know rather than some EU Muslim migrant, who don't get justice? Where's the outcry about that? Or the millions of women across the world who are raped and too afraid to speak up for fear of false-accusation/reprisals? Where's your outcry for them?

Your binary approach to a complex issue is making you sound like a bigot, even if you're not. There's no simple answer here, despite what Donald Trump would have everybody believe.

The thread is about the attacks committed on New Years celebrations throughout Europe, I responded to that with my views. If there had been threads on the other topics you suggested then I would say something.

Fair enough if I come across a bigot I don't mind about it.

I don't think the issue is as complex as you say. Keep the bad ones out its simple.

[Sylar]

The thread is about the attacks committed on New Years celebrations throughout Europe, I responded to that with my views. If there had been threads on the other topics you suggested then I would say something.

Fair enough if I come across a bigot I don't mind about it.

I don't think the issue is as complex as you say. Keep the bad ones out its simple.

But you could start these other threads if these acts of rape/violence are so appalling to you? Why haven't you? It goes back to the earlier question you were rightly asked and have failed at every turn to address, why the problem is so much more awful when it's "migrants"? It smacks of being an Islamophobic agenda and you add fuel to that suspicion with every post you make that generalises or takes aim at an entire culture.

How do we identify the "bad" ones? Take them to a camp and torture them til they confess their sins and criminality? The sheer volume of people in transit at any point in the globe is considerable and not all of them have a neat computer record of their past deeds and behaviours. Again, you're attaching very simple, binary language to a problem (if you wish to view it as thus) that has existed for centuries (the perceived trail of destruction or lack of adaptation by the "other").

[Rasta_Hibs]

But you could start these other threads if these acts of rape/violence are so appalling to you? Why haven't you? It goes back to the earlier question you were rightly asked and have failed at every turn to address, why the problem is so much more awful when it's "migrants"? It smacks of being an Islamophobic agenda and you add fuel to that suspicion with every post you make that generalises or takes aim at an entire culture.

How do we identify the "bad" ones? Take them to a camp and torture them til they confess their sins and criminality? The sheer volume of people in transit at any point in the globe is considerable and not all of them have a neat computer record of their past deeds and behaviours. Again, you're attaching very simple, binary language to a problem (if you wish to view it as thus) that has existed for centuries (the perceived trail of destruction or lack of adaptation by the "other").

The reason have not responded to that question as its not worthy of a response but I will now for you. Its more disgusting because these migrants are seeking help & refuge from the nations / people they are attacking.

[Moulin Yarns]

The reason have not responded to that question as its not worthy of a response but I will now for you. Its more disgusting because these migrants are seeking help & refuge from the nations / people they are attacking.


I'm sure I asked you before, where is the evidence, not hearsay, that it was migrants that were responsible for the assaults and thefts in numerous European cities at New Year?

You have constantly accused Muslim men that have recently migrated to Europe from North Africa or Arabian countries, but there is no confirmed report that any were responsible.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I'm sure I asked you before, where is the evidence, not hearsay, that it was migrants that were responsible for the assaults and thefts in numerous European cities at New Year?

You have constantly accused Muslim men that have recently migrated to Europe from North Africa or Arabian countries, but there is no confirmed report that any were responsible.

Multiple witness statements, victims statements, eye witnesses, police cover ups. None of this is good enough for you to form an opinion but this combined with personal experience and knowledge is more than enough for me to know who is to blame and no prizes who all the fingers of blame are pointing at.

[Sylar]

The reason have not responded to that question as its not worthy of a response but I will now for you. Its more disgusting because these migrants are seeking help & refuge from the nations / people they are attacking.

But it is a worthy question. Rape/assault are disgusting crimes no matter who is perpetrating them - their skin colour, passport origin, religious persuasion, sexuality, etc etc has no bearing on the magnitude of appall.

The crimes deserve condemnation - the route the perpetrator took to commit them does not.

[Moulin Yarns]

Multiple witness statements, victims statements, eye witnesses, police cover ups. None of this is good enough for you to form an opinion but this combined with personal experience and knowledge is more than enough for me to know who is to blame and no prizes who all the fingers of blame are pointing at.

Is this all from the police forces themselves, or media reports?

Pointing fingers is not good enough, proof and trial is required. It is called justice.

Oh, By the way, I do have an opinion, but it won't satisfy you as it does rely on waiting on charges being brought.

I think is oft referred to as 'innocent until proved guilty'

[Rasta_Hibs]

But it is a worthy question. Rape/assault are disgusting crimes no matter who is perpetrating them - their skin colour, passport origin, religious persuasion, sexuality, etc etc has no bearing on the magnitude of appall.

The crimes deserve condemnation - the route the perpetrator took to commit them does not.

We will agree to disagree then but good luck in the future defending your position.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Is this all from the police forces themselves, or media reports?

Pointing fingers is not good enough, proof and trial is required. It is called justice.

Oh, By the way, I do have an opinion, but it won't satisfy you as it does rely on waiting on charges being brought.

I think is oft referred to as 'innocent until proved guilty'

So when the migrants are found guilty what will you say?

[Sylar]

We will agree to disagree then but good luck in the future defending your position.

What position would that be? That I deplore rape/violence and all those who perpetrate it, indiscriminately? Yeah, tough sell.

[Moulin Yarns]

So when the migrants are found guilty what will you say?

IF the are migrants? or do you really mean when the Muslims are found guilty, as that has been your unsubstantiated accusation on this thread.

I see you haven't corroborated your source of info, again.

[Rasta_Hibs]

What position would that be? That I deplore rape/violence and all those who perpetrate it, indiscriminately? Yeah, tough sell.

No not that position we both have that one.
It's the one where you claim there is no connection between sex attacks on western women and the mass immigration of Muslim men from north Africa and the middle east.

Good luck defending that position.

[Rasta_Hibs]

IF the are migrants? or do you really mean when the Muslims are found guilty, as that has been your unsubstantiated accusation on this thread.

I see you haven't corroborated your source of info, again.

migrants or Muslims take your pic they will be both.

[Moulin Yarns]

migrants or Muslims take your pic they will be both.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjtz0xsNdJYy4kLIowobwCYtDj7BiB9 qyxZdQQcIr77RLPJKq2-A

[Sylar]

No not that position we both have that one.

Except, you've already agreed to disagree with me on that very point. It's worse, in your eyes, that the perpetrator wasn't a German. German rape = good. Muslim rape = must be punished without trial by death then deportation. (I'm being facetious, of course).


It's the one where you claim there is no connection between sex attacks on western women and the mass immigration of Muslim men from north Africa and the middle east.

Good luck defending that position.

Good luck finding any post where I've said any such thing!

[Rasta_Hibs]

Except, you've already agreed to disagree with me on that very point. It's worse, in your eyes, that the perpetrator wasn't a German. German rape = good. Muslim rape = must be punished without trial by death then deportation. (I'm being facetious, of course).



Good luck finding any post where I've said any such thing!

I dont think there is good rape or bad rape your jumping the gun there but ill forgive you and put it down to my bad language. I agreed to disagree because i think the increase in sex attacks was partly down to from where they migrants come from - meaning the route the attacker took to get to the EU. So i dont accept what you say about me as its not true.

But i am glad finally you say on record that there is a connection between male muslim migration and to the sex attacks.

[Rasta_Hibs]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjtz0xsNdJYy4kLIowobwCYtDj7BiB9 qyxZdQQcIr77RLPJKq2-A

Haha say what you like but i will be proved right. The attackers will be muslim and they will be migrants recent or not.

[Sylar]

I dont think there is good rape or bad rape your jumping the gun there but ill forgive you and put it down to my bad language. I agreed to disagree because i think the increase in sex attacks was partly down to from where they migrants come from - meaning the route the attacker took to get to the EU. So i dont accept what you say about me as its not true.

But i am glad finally you say on record that there is a connection between male muslim migration and to the sex attacks.

I think I'm finally starting to understand the 'Rasta_' prefix...

[Rasta_Hibs]

Up to one thousand men, of Arabic and North African appearance, made what appeared to be organised attacks on many people at New Year in Cologne.

They arrived in large groups by train at the main train station. Many young women on the trains had been robbed and/or sexually asualted by these groups.

These men spend the rest of the evening firing 'rockets' (the firework kind) into groups of new year celebrants, mainly as a distraction for robbing them and commiting further multiple acts of sexual assaults.


Why has this not garnered News Coverage befitting this horrendous occurence?

:confused:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046


I think I'm finally starting to understand the 'Rasta_' prefix...

I'm glad at least you have an understanding of something.

[Moulin Yarns]

Multiple witness statements, victims statements, eye witnesses, police cover ups. None of this is good enough for you to form an opinion but this combined with personal experience and knowledge is more than enough for me to know who is to blame and no prizes who all the fingers of blame are pointing at.


Haha say what you like but i will be proved right. The attackers will be muslim and they will be migrants recent or not.


I'm glad at least you have an understanding of something.

That you want to be Prosecutor, Judge and Jury. Not to mention leading the lynch mob.

You will be so glad to be proved right, No thoughts to the victims, it is all about proving a point :rolleyes:

[Rasta_Hibs]

That you want to be Prosecutor, Judge and Jury. Not to mention leading the lynch mob.

You will be so glad to be proved right, No thoughts to the victims, it is all about proving a point :rolleyes:

what a joke. It's a debate between me and you on each others point.

I'm giving my views that I believe and in time I believe I will be proved to be right in what i'm saying.

[Rasta_Hibs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo3s

Watch it if you like and how does it fit with the liberals and lefties that hear no evil, see no evil.

[Moulin Yarns]

what a joke. It's a debate between me and you on each others point.

I'm giving my views that I believe and in time I believe I will be proved to be right in what i'm saying.

Already proven to be wrong.

BBC reported 31 arrested. Only 18 are asylum seekers. 2 are German national 1 is Serbian and 1 is from the U.S.

Looking forward to your explanation as to how they are all immigrants and Muslims.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Already proven to be wrong.

BBC reported 31 arrested. Only 18 are asylum seekers. 2 are German national 1 is Serbian and 1 is from the U.S.

Looking forward to your explanation as to how they are all immigrants and Muslims.

Over 50 percent of the attacks committed by asylum seekers yet I am in the wrong?

[Pete]

Already proven to be wrong.

BBC reported 31 arrested. Only 18 are asylum seekers. 2 are German national 1 is Serbian and 1 is from the U.S.

Looking forward to your explanation as to how they are all immigrants and Muslims.

I'm sorry but without context that proves nothing.

There is enough evidence to work on the basis that these perpetrators were from a certain element of society and saying otherwise is being deliberately obtuse on a point of principle. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremities.

We need to have a mature debate about what went wrong and how we can prevent this happening again. I'm sure the Germans will act accordingly and get this right.

[CropleyWasGod]

Over 50 percent of the attacks committed by asylum seekers yet I am in the wrong?

Do we actually know that?

Over 50% of those arrested (not charged, or found guilty) are asylum seekers.

[Moulin Yarns]

So when the migrants are found guilty what will you say?

When? What about the non migrants?

[Rasta_Hibs]

When? What about the non migrants?

after the trial? You can say what you like about the non migrants.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Already proven to be wrong.

BBC reported 31 arrested. Only 18 are asylum seekers. 2 are German national 1 is Serbian and 1 is from the U.S.

Looking forward to your explanation as to how they are all immigrants and Muslims.

That doesn't really bring down Rasta Hibs argument as far as I can see, not if two thirds of those arrested were indeed asylum seekers. I do not agree with his overall point of view, but he does have a point about one facet of this, at least I think it was him who raised it.

In order to request the status of an 'asylum seeker' in any country you must be able to prove that continued residence in your country of origin, or your return to it, would certainly lead to your persecution on the grounds of race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or political views .... more often than not to the danger of your life.

Why then, in the mind of any sane rational human being, would you break the law in the country you are seeking refuge in, the country you are effectively asking to save your life ....... it is not unreasonable that the indigenous population of the country you are fleeing to would take an extremely dim view of your actions and see you as an ungrateful wretch undeserving of anything but the harshest retribution for your ingratitude. I don't mean a case of 'starving asylum seeker steals tins of soup from supermarket' ....... I am talking about far more serious stuff.

Many years ago there was a loud frantic knock at the door of our house. When I answered it there was 3 young teenagers at the door who explained to me in rushed and desperate tones that they were on holiday in the area and that they were being chased by a gang of local youths, they begged me to let them in and call the police, I let them in, but having no phone couldn't call the police.

A couple of hours later when the coast appeared to be clear they left, thanking my mum profusely for saving them from a kicking. If I had let them in and they had stolen my mum's purse and tried to feel up my sister ( if I had one ) would I be a horrible person if the next time there was a knock at the door and there was another 3 kids standing there I said 'tough luck kids, try somewhere else' ... I don't think I would, because my priority would have to be to protect my family above my desire to be a nice person.

If the second set of kids had ended up getting a kicking I would feel partly responsible, I would even feel bad about it ............ but in the end ultimate responsibility would lie with the first set of kids for turning me into a person who doesn't think letting strangers into my house is a good idea.

That's why I'm not surprised that more and more people are beginning to take Rasta Hibs point of view and much as I don't want to be one of them I'm finding it harder and harder to blindly condemn them for it.

[lyonhibs]

I've been a tad surprised by people equating ,on a pretty much 1:1 basis, "men of Arabic/North African appearance" to "immigrants from the recent waves from those regions"

Germany has long been a destination of choice for immigrants, mainly from Turkey but elsewhere as well. There's a very good chance these horrible acts were carried out in part by 1st/2nd generation immigrants with German citizenship, but that would be an uncomfortable reality for the MSM to consider...

[HiBremian]

Do we actually know that?

Over 50% of those arrested (not charged, or found guilty) are asylum seekers.

100% of those arrested were young men between 16 and 35. Might this not be a clue to where the problem really lies?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CropleyWasGod]

100% of those arrested were young men between 16 and 35. Might this not be a clue to where the problem really lies?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Indeed :)

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[HappyAsHellas]

During my time in Saudi I read in the daily newspapers that 95% of women who worked in the west committed adultery. Images of semi clothed women are of course banned, a sense of decency apparently. Until they had pictures of princess Di pregnant in a bikini with the caption Princess whore. The treatment of women in most of these countries is something most rational males here would view as utterly abhorrent. The problem is that the locals read this vile propaganda from a young age and therefore grow up with a certain viewpoint. A Saudi national I worked with was astounded when on holiday in the UK a female had the audacity to slap his face because he only asked if she wanted to ****. Islam is the be all and end all for these people, something that we generally find hard to comprehend because of our generally liberal viewing of religion. Sadly, the fundamental forms of Islam are at direct odds with what we would view as a normal civilised society. Many of the refugees are being taught about western life, but turning back their upbringing and beliefs will take several generations IMHO. Do we have the patience?

[Hibrandenburg]

During my time in Saudi I read in the daily newspapers that 95% of women who worked in the west committed adultery. Images of semi clothed women are of course banned, a sense of decency apparently. Until they had pictures of princess Di pregnant in a bikini with the caption Princess whore. The treatment of women in most of these countries is something most rational males here would view as utterly abhorrent. The problem is that the locals read this vile propaganda from a young age and therefore grow up with a certain viewpoint. A Saudi national I worked with was astounded when on holiday in the UK a female had the audacity to slap his face because he only asked if she wanted to ****. Islam is the be all and end all for these people, something that we generally find hard to comprehend because of our generally liberal viewing of religion. Sadly, the fundamental forms of Islam are at direct odds with what we would view as a normal civilised society. Many of the refugees are being taught about western life, but turning back their upbringing and beliefs will take several generations IMHO. Do we have the patience?

Although your post is a subjective one, I think it's probably on the ball when it comes to Saudi Arabia. Do we have the patience to reeducate them? Well in regards to the Syrian refugees I see no alternative other than to try, it's either that or leave them to be slaughtered in their millions or used against us by a monster we helped create.

[Moulin Yarns]

Haha say what you like but i will be proved right. The attackers will be muslim and they will be migrants recent or not.


Over 50 percent of the attacks committed by asylum seekers yet I am in the wrong?


Your first statement clearly implies that only Muslim migrants were responsible, so yes, you are wrong.

[Hibrandenburg]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/cologne-new-year-sex-attacks-germanys-women-are-angry-scared---a/

Not just theft as described above by a previous poster.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/two-teenage-girls-gangraped-by-four-syrian-nationals-in-southern-germany-34345960.html

Deport every last one of these criminals!

Ill say it now we will regret the day we let so many muslim men into the EU and the west! I don't care for the political correctness.
http://www.thejournal.ie/regensburg-domspatzen-ratzinger-benedict-choir-child-abuse-scandal-2538826-Jan2016/

What about this lot, should they be deported back to Rome?

[Jack]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rossalynwarren/what-really-happened-in-cologne#.bkN4laKdR

[Colr]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/woman-indecently-assaulted-after-christmas-night-out-1-3995735

[Colr]

Your first statement clearly implies that only Muslim migrants were responsible, so yes, you are wrong.

It's not a religious or a racial problem, it's a cultural one. The countries they come from have attitudes to women that are over 200 years behind our own. More reflective of the world Wolstencraft commented on that the rather different feminist issues that the left wing third wave feminist have been focused on.

[Rasta_Hibs]

http://www.thejournal.ie/regensburg-domspatzen-ratzinger-benedict-choir-child-abuse-scandal-2538826-Jan2016/

What about this lot, should they be deported back to Rome?

Lets make it all nice and clear. You can pick out single cases and throw them up but the undeniable fact that you will never accept is that the majority if not all were carried out by muslim men. The when you go further you find that at least half of the people charged are immigrant asylum seekers.

You are trying your best to polish a jobby!

But it is clear as day and dark and night that the EU and the west have a major problem with mass immigration of muslim men.

It is a culture clash muslim men v western society.

Believe it or not i was very left wing and did not see a problem with welcoming muslims into the country as i didnt see a problem. But over time looking into the problems in the middle east (i have apposed every war in the middle east including the one against Saddam). But the amounts that genius Angela Merkel has welcomed into the EU and then since we are a part of the EU then welcomed into the UK also.

Were the native people asked about this? As people as have said before the media and liberals have everyone racist if you object, well im not racist, certainly not racist like the muslims who attacked on new years. But this is a major culture clash.

If you can show me somewhere in the world where there is a real tolerant muslim society that treats all members of the community equally like the western society does then please give me that example and i will stand corrected and you can send me all the KKK memes yi like!

I have no time for the muslim religion i think its a false doctrine and i think muhammed is the false prophet! (look at who he is in the muslim books he is not a nice guy) These are my views and when i see our lands being over run with muslims that have no respect for western christian values then something needs to be said and done about it.

What needs to be done is open to debate but lets not leave the debate until more crimes are committed against our women and our society and then the only solution is going to be a lot of blood spilled. This blood shed will be brought about by the liberal left and then blamed on the right wing. The liberal left invite all the muslims in, who then run amok, the right wiill then respond and are called **** of the earth for it.

Aye i probably sound terrible but then i think the left wing view point is terrible and so out of touch and got their head in the sand its almost not worth noting or commenting on.

Yes maybe not 100% of attackers were muslims but the percentage of attackers that are muslim is so high it can only be described as a problem to our society.

[Colr]

Lets make it all nice and clear. You can pick out single cases and throw them up but the undeniable fact that you will never accept is that the majority if not all were carried out by muslim men. The when you go further you find that at least half of the people charged are immigrant asylum seekers.

You are trying your best to polish a jobby!

But it is clear as day and dark and night that the EU and the west have a major problem with mass immigration of muslim men.

It is a culture clash muslim men v western society.

Believe it or not i was very left wing and did not see a problem with welcoming muslims into the country as i didnt see a problem. But over time looking into the problems in the middle east (i have apposed every war in the middle east including the one against Saddam). But the amounts that genius Angela Merkel has welcomed into the EU and then since we are a part of the EU then welcomed into the UK also.

Were the native people asked about this? As people as have said before the media and liberals have everyone racist if you object, well im not racist, certainly not racist like the muslims who attacked on new years. But this is a major culture clash.

If you can show me somewhere in the world where there is a real tolerant muslim society that treats all members of the community equally like the western society does then please give me that example and i will stand corrected and you can send me all the KKK memes yi like!

I have no time for the muslim religion i think its a false doctrine and i think muhammed is the false prophet! (look at who he is in the muslim books he is not a nice guy) These are my views and when i see our lands being over run with muslims that have no respect for western christian values then something needs to be said and done about it.

What needs to be done is open to debate but lets not leave the debate until more crimes are committed against our women and our society and then the only solution is going to be a lot of blood spilled. This blood shed will be brought about by the liberal left and then blamed on the right wing. The liberal left invite all the muslims in, who then run amok, the right wiill then respond and are called **** of the earth for it.

Aye i probably sound terrible but then i think the left wing view point is terrible and so out of touch and got their head in the sand its almost not worth noting or commenting on.

Yes maybe not 100% of attackers were muslims but the percentage of attackers that are muslim is so high it can only be described as a problem to our society.

Given they were reportedly drunk, they seem very unclear on Islam. As I said above, this is less to do with relgioin and race and more to do with culture. The countries they come from did not experience the social revolution from the enlightenment onward.

[CropleyWasGod]

Given they were reportedly drunk, they seem very unclear on Islam. As I said above, this is less to do with relgioin and race and more to do with culture. The countries they come from did not experience the social revolution from the enlightenment onward.

I'm with you on the cultural thing. It's so easy (and lazy, IMO) to conflate what is (so far) reported....ie some of the people arrested are Syrian.....with Islam.

There needs to be a lot of education here. Not least, as you allude to, of those immigrant groups.....but also of those who are already living in the West. That's not an easy, or short-term, task, but it's one that needs to be done.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lets make it all nice and clear. when i see our lands being over run with muslims.




Let's deal in the facts. I have extracted one of your comments that is so untrue.

The 2011 Census gives information on religion, and is there for all to see.

The UK census shows less than 5% of the population to be Muslim.

Scottish figures are less than 1.5%

But somehow we are being over run by Muslims!

Oh yes, and before you ask, it is 4% in Germany.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Let's deal in the facts. I have extracted one of your comments that is so untrue.

The 2011 Census gives information on religion, and is there for all to see.

The UK census shows less than 5% of the population to be Muslim.

Scottish figures are less than 1.5%

But somehow we are being over run by Muslims!

Oh yes, and before you ask, it is 4% in Germany.

how many have come in a year? How many wives are they allowed to have? What's the average size of a muslim family?

In the future Muslims will have higher percentage. That can be no doubt. I look 25 to 30 years from now!

[CropleyWasGod]

how many have come in a year? How many wives are they allowed to have? What's the average size of a muslim family?

In the future Muslims will have higher percentage. That can be no doubt. I look 25 to 30 years from now!

What's your evidence for that?

[Rasta_Hibs]

What's your evidence for that?



Birth rates from both cultures. Google the facts if you want. I'm not saying they will out number non Muslims. But you only need to see now how our society panders to muslim culture with a small percentage.

Wait till there numbers grow and see how they will try and change our society.

[CropleyWasGod]

Birth rates from both cultures. Google the facts if you want. I'm not saying they will out number non Muslims. But you only need to see now how our society panders to muslim culture with a small percentage.

Wait till there numbers grow and see how they will try and change our society.

Show me those birth rates :)

So, when you said "25-30 years", what do you mean?

And, given the cultural and economic contribution Muslims (and other non-muslim immigrants) have made to our society, is it such a bad thing that our society becomes more diverse?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Show me those birth rates :)

So, when you said "25-30 years", what do you mean?

And, given the cultural and economic contribution Muslims (and other non-muslim immigrants) have made to our society, is it such a bad thing that our society becomes more diverse?

Firstly show me the positive culture contribution Muslims have made to the UK? More positives than negatives? Please enlighten me?

Our culture is diverse enough. What's makes you say adding more and more Muslims to the mix is going to improve on an already successful society?

[CropleyWasGod]

Firstly show me the positive culture contribution Muslims have made to the UK? More positives than negatives? Please enlighten me?

Our culture is diverse enough. What's makes you say adding more and more Muslims to the mix is going to improve on an already successful society?

Maybe you can reply to my questions first, and then I will give you my own anecdotal evidence of the positive contributions.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Maybe you can reply to my questions first, and then I will give you my own anecdotal evidence of the positive contributions.

Ok fair enough

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

But i didnt really have to do that as its common knowledge that muslims have more babies that non muslims and it is also common knowledge that muslims have more wives than non muslims, babies to each of their wives = alot more babies!!!

I dont really know why you cant see that?

[CropleyWasGod]

Ok fair enough

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

But i didnt really have to do that as its common knowledge that muslims have more babies that non muslims and it is also common knowledge that muslims have more wives than non muslims, babies to each of their wives = alot more babies!!!

I dont really know why you cant see that?

Thanks for that.

So, extracting this from that link, where it relates to Europe:-

Data for the rates of growth of Islam in Europe reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to immigration and higher birth rates.[30] Muslim women today have an average of 2.2 children compared to an estimated average of 1.5 children for non-Muslim women in Europe.[3] While the birth rate for Muslims in Europe is expected to decline over the next two decades, it will remain slightly higher than in the non-Muslim population

"Slightly higher" doesn't suggest any kind of cultural take-over.

[Moulin Yarns]

Ok fair enough

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth

But i didnt really have to do that as its common knowledge that muslims have more babies that non muslims and it is also common knowledge that muslims have more wives than non muslims, babies to each of their wives = alot more babies!!!

I dont really know why you cant see that?


HAHAHA!!! Relying on Wikipedia.

Some real information

Over the next four decades, Christians will remain the largest religious group, but Islam will grow faster than any other major religion.

4 decades!! nothing like your 25-30 years

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/

The bit in bold,have you told the Mormons :wink:

Meanwhile....

there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies:






serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce, and so on any number of times;







a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses;







an unmarried man having a number of mistresses.







Islam condones but discourages the first and forbids the other two.



According to the Koran (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/q00.html#quran), polygamy is allowed in Islam (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/i07.html). However, Muslims tend to disagree on how to interpret their religion’s teachings on the subject. Overal, while the practice isallowed (http://www.answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/offsite.jpg, it is subject to certain rules, and is not onlydiscouraged (http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_polygamy.htm)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/offsite.jpg by according to some (http://www.pucl.org/Topics/Gender/2002/polygamy-islam.htm)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/offsite.jpg, "the real intention of the Qur’an, is to ultimately abolish polygamy albeit gradually". Most Muslims do not practice polygamy.
There is a small group of people — mostly in the USA — who identify themselves as Christians (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c94.html) and who promote and practice polygamy (http://www.christianpolygamy.com/)http://www.apologeticsindex.org/graphics/offsite.jpg, claiming that the Bible allows them to do so.


Some simple research would help

[Rasta_Hibs]

Yes but in a year how many have arrived. Next year, the year after that, the year after that? Millions of Muslims arriving on Europe's doors. This can't be denied.

That combined with the higher birthrate of those here already or just arrived. It is a factor even if you want to dismiss it.

You have not yet supplied the positives Islam has given the UK?

[CropleyWasGod]

Yes but in a year how many have arrived. Next year, the year after that, the year after that? Millions of Muslims arriving on Europe's doors. This can't be denied.

That combined with the higher birthrate of those here already or just arrived. It is a factor even if you want to dismiss it.

You have not yet supplied the positives Islam has given the UK?

That Wikipedia article says "slightly higher" birth rates. In other words, the Muslim population growth will be "slightly higher" than that for non-Muslims. That's hardly Muslim apocalypse, is it?

I'll respond with my own thoughts on immigration in my next post.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let's deal in the facts. I have extracted one of your comments that is so untrue.

The 2011 Census gives information on religion, and is there for all to see.

The UK census shows less than 5% of the population to be Muslim.

Scottish figures are less than 1.5%

But somehow we are being over run by Muslims!

Oh yes, and before you ask, it is 4% in Germany.

Any comments on the facts Rasta? :wink:

[CropleyWasGod]

Fair's fair, I will respond to your question about positive contributions.

This is anecdotal, and personal, evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

1. my own personal situation. I have neighbours on 3 sides. All of them non-European by ethnicity. 1 family Muslim Bangla Deshi. 1 couple Chinese-Canadian, religion unknown. 1 couple South Asian, possibly Pakistani, religion unknown.
All of them contribute economically to society by working for others, or having their own businesses. They all own their own homes. In 2 cases, there are families who attend local schools and therefore contribute to the local community.

2. my own work experience. In over 26 years, I have had many clients who are are either 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. Some are openly Muslim, some I don't know (and, for the most part, don't care). As these are self-employed people, running their own businesses, they are paying Income Tax and VAT and, in some cases, employing local people. They are also, in some cases, providing services that many Scottish might not. Indeed, for example in catering, they are providing services that are very welcome to Scots.

3. my youngest son's experience. He attended the most ethnically-diverse school in Edinburgh. As a result, he has a tolerance and understanding of non-traditional-Scots culture far beyond that of my generation. The attitude of that generation to cultural, ethnic, religious and sexual minorities is at times an inspiration, and makes me confident that future generations (of all cultures) have a decent chance of integration. Curtailing immigration (of any sort) would surely put that at risk.

Those are the positives. I know that these experiences are replicated amongst my generation and peer-group.

The negatives, such as the attacks in Germany? It remains to be seen, of course, what the justice system will conclude, and I'm not going to hang anyone yet. However, I'm quite comfortable with a debate on Merkel's suggestions today that wrongdoers can be deported

[Hibrandenburg]

Lets make it all nice and clear. You can pick out single cases and throw them up but the undeniable fact that you will never accept is that the majority if not all were carried out by muslim men. The when you go further you find that at least half of the people charged are immigrant asylum seekers.

You are trying your best to polish a jobby!

But it is clear as day and dark and night that the EU and the west have a major problem with mass immigration of muslim men.

It is a culture clash muslim men v western society.

Believe it or not i was very left wing and did not see a problem with welcoming muslims into the country as i didnt see a problem. But over time looking into the problems in the middle east (i have apposed every war in the middle east including the one against Saddam). But the amounts that genius Angela Merkel has welcomed into the EU and then since we are a part of the EU then welcomed into the UK also.

Were the native people asked about this? As people as have said before the media and liberals have everyone racist if you object, well im not racist, certainly not racist like the muslims who attacked on new years. But this is a major culture clash.

If you can show me somewhere in the world where there is a real tolerant muslim society that treats all members of the community equally like the western society does then please give me that example and i will stand corrected and you can send me all the KKK memes yi like!

I have no time for the muslim religion i think its a false doctrine and i think muhammed is the false prophet! (look at who he is in the muslim books he is not a nice guy) These are my views and when i see our lands being over run with muslims that have no respect for western christian values then something needs to be said and done about it.

What needs to be done is open to debate but lets not leave the debate until more crimes are committed against our women and our society and then the only solution is going to be a lot of blood spilled. This blood shed will be brought about by the liberal left and then blamed on the right wing. The liberal left invite all the muslims in, who then run amok, the right wiill then respond and are called **** of the earth for it.

Aye i probably sound terrible but then i think the left wing view point is terrible and so out of touch and got their head in the sand its almost not worth noting or commenting on.

Yes maybe not 100% of attackers were muslims but the percentage of attackers that are muslim is so high it can only be described as a problem to our society.

Again you're missing or avoiding my point. Criminal acts are carried out by all religious groups and cultures, it doesn't mean the cultures are bad it just means the individuals carrying out the crimes are bad. Why are Muslim bad guys badder than our bad guys?

[Greencore]

Up to one thousand men, of Arabic and North African appearance, made what appeared to be organised attacks on many people at New Year in Cologne.

They arrived in large groups by train at the main train station. Many young women on the trains had been robbed and/or sexually asualted by these groups.

These men spend the rest of the evening firing 'rockets' (the firework kind) into groups of new year celebrants, mainly as a distraction for robbing them and commiting further multiple acts of sexual assaults.


Why has this not garnered News Coverage befitting this horrendous occurence?

:confused:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
Because anything said against them is racist and anti equality. Sit down white man.

[Keith_M]

Now that would be news, however the police in Cologne are reporting it was a group of between 2 and 40 drunken men aged between 20 and 40 who were touching women up to distract them while they were robbed. Now it's bad enough but it's not rape and pillage and as usual it's being blown completely out of proportion by the press, now why would they do something like that?


Sorry Paul but you are sooooo wrong about this.

As you probably know by now, the police chief lied through his teeth and has had to resign.

This was organized attacks on young women on a massive scale (there have now been hundreds of reported incidents). These were performed by organised gangs of young men of North African/Arabic appearance. Many of those arrested (sadly only a small number so far) are asylum seekers.

These are facts that all the 'white guilt' excuses in the world cannot cover up.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry Paul but you are sooooo wrong about this.

As you probably know by now, the police chief lied through his teeth and has had to resign.

This was organized attacks on young women on a massive scale (there have now been hundreds of reported incidents). These were performed by organised gangs of young men of North African/Arabic appearance. Many of those arrested (sadly only a small number so far) are asylum seekers.

These are facts that all the 'white guilt' excuses in the world cannot cover up.

Sorry Keith but how am I wrong? The picture is still unclear about what really happened and the press are working on the scant information being released by the police and we all know how the press works. What is clear is that it was organised and that there were many north Africans and Arabs involved and with a couple of Germans and an American thrown in for good measure. My whole point has been ignored time and time again on here, whilst I think what went down on "Silvester" was disgusting and those who were involved should and will face the full weight of the law when they're inevitably caught, I just don't see these acts as being worse than what goes on at the Octoberfest or the traditional riots in Berlin on May Day because this time the perpetrators are of a certain ethnic background.

Let's put things into perspective, in Munich there's an average 20 rapes reported and several hundred incidents of sexual harassment during the Octoberfest. Where's the Europe wide outrage and political will to stamp down on this? Thousands of children are systematically abused by an organisation at the heart of our society that has existed for nearly 2 thousand years and has proved to be a repeat offender again and again but this doesn't receive nearly the same amount of outrage. In fact it's become so routine that the loudest protest you'll hear is the tutting from people reading about it and the sound of them turning the page and moving on.

I'm not defending what happened in Köln, I'm simply asking why are we more outraged by this than other similar outrageous incidents that happen on our own doorstep? Anybody?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Fair's fair, I will respond to your question about positive contributions.

This is anecdotal, and personal, evidence, but evidence nonetheless.

1. my own personal situation. I have neighbours on 3 sides. All of them non-European by ethnicity. 1 family Muslim Bangla Deshi. 1 couple Chinese-Canadian, religion unknown. 1 couple South Asian, possibly Pakistani, religion unknown.
All of them contribute economically to society by working for others, or having their own businesses. They all own their own homes. In 2 cases, there are families who attend local schools and therefore contribute to the local community.

2. my own work experience. In over 26 years, I have had many clients who are are either 1st or 2nd generation immigrants. Some are openly Muslim, some I don't know (and, for the most part, don't care). As these are self-employed people, running their own businesses, they are paying Income Tax and VAT and, in some cases, employing local people. They are also, in some cases, providing services that many Scottish might not. Indeed, for example in catering, they are providing services that are very welcome to Scots.

3. my youngest son's experience. He attended the most ethnically-diverse school in Edinburgh. As a result, he has a tolerance and understanding of non-traditional-Scots culture far beyond that of my generation. The attitude of that generation to cultural, ethnic, religious and sexual minorities is at times an inspiration, and makes me confident that future generations (of all cultures) have a decent chance of integration. Curtailing immigration (of any sort) would surely put that at risk.

Those are the positives. I know that these experiences are replicated amongst my generation and peer-group.

The negatives, such as the attacks in Germany? It remains to be seen, of course, what the justice system will conclude, and I'm not going to hang anyone yet. However, I'm quite comfortable with a debate on Merkel's suggestions today that wrongdoers can be deported

With respect you have not answered my question when i have answered yours. Whilst the above personal experience is lovely for you it didnt answer the question asked.

What positive contribution has Islam made to UK society as a whole? Not just for the muslim comminity but what has Islam done for wider UK society - what are the positives?

[CropleyWasGod]

The same old tired out dated view point from the left!

But you haven't addressed it.

[HiBremian]

With respect you have not answered my question when i have answered yours. Whilst the above personal experience is lovely for you it didnt answer the question asked.

What positive contribution has Islam made to UK society as a whole? Not just for the muslim comminity but what has Islam done for wider UK society - what are the positives?

With respect, Rasta, you're straying into Monty Python territory here.

To put it another way, I'm an atheist. What has ANY religion done for wider UK society? Well just about the same story for any religion going, some good some bad, with the obvious exception of Northern Ireland, where of course Islam has brought nothing but death and destruction, whilst christianity brought us peace and light. No wait.....

[CropleyWasGod]

With respect you have not answered my question when i have answered yours. Whilst the above personal experience is lovely for you it didnt answer the question asked.

What positive contribution has Islam made to UK society as a whole? Not just for the muslim comminity but what has Islam done for wider UK society - what are the positives?

Increased tax take and economic contributions.

Cultural and social integration.

Contributions to art, architecture and music.

Increased tolerance and diversity of a sort that we have never seen before.

But, of course, you could say that about any set of immigrants, going all the way back to the Romans. :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Increased tax take and economic contributions.

Cultural and social integration.

Contributions to art, architecture and music.

Increased tolerance and diversity of a sort that we have never seen before.

But, of course, you could say that about any set of immigrants, going all the way back to the Romans. :greengrin


Oi!! What about the Picts???:take that

[CropleyWasGod]

Oi!! What about the Picts???:take that

What did they ever do for us?

[Moulin Yarns]

What did they ever do for us?


They got us some nice carved stones, Crannogs, Art, jewellery, A religious centre older than Iona at Portmahomack. Not to mention keeping the Romans out of most of what is now Scotland.

[CropleyWasGod]

They got us some nice carved stones, Crannogs, Art, jewellery, A religious centre older than Iona at Portmahomack. Not to mention keeping the Romans out of most of what is now Scotland.

Yeah, but apart from that?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yeah, but apart from that?

Pictures

Picturesque

Pictorials

Pictionary :wink:

Depicts :na na:

[HiBremian]

Yeah, but apart from that?

Didn't they give us the Yes/No Interlude? :cb

[CropleyWasGod]

Didn't they give us the Yes/No Interlude? :cb

Dear God, I had to Google that.

Scarier still, I remember like it was....

[HiBremian]

Dear God, I had to Google that.

Scarier still, I remember like it was....

Random memory association.

[Keith_M]

Sorry Keith but how am I wrong? The picture is still unclear about what really happened and the press are working on the scant information being released by the police and we all know how the press works. What is clear is that it was organised and that there were many north Africans and Arabs involved and with a couple of Germans and an American thrown in for good measure. My whole point has been ignored time and time again on here, whilst I think what went down on "Silvester" was disgusting and those who were involved should and will face the full weight of the law when they're inevitably caught, I just don't see these acts as being worse than what goes on at the Octoberfest or the traditional riots in Berlin on May Day because this time the perpetrators are of a certain ethnic background.

Let's put things into perspective, in Munich there's an average 20 rapes reported and several hundred incidents of sexual harassment during the Octoberfest. Where's the Europe wide outrage and political will to stamp down on this? Thousands of children are systematically abused by an organisation at the heart of our society that has existed for nearly 2 thousand years and has proved to be a repeat offender again and again but this doesn't receive nearly the same amount of outrage. In fact it's become so routine that the loudest protest you'll hear is the tutting from people reading about it and the sound of them turning the page and moving on.

I'm not defending what happened in Köln, I'm simply asking why are we more outraged by this than other similar outrageous incidents that happen on our own doorstep? Anybody?

I already wrote what you were wrong about but, here it is, for emphasis.

You said that there were between two and 40 attacks, as evidenced by the chief of police, but the number of reported attacks is actually now over 300 and the Police chief has been forced to resign, after refusing to act when it became clear the scale of the situation and the ethnic origin of most of the perpetrators, and then attempting a cover up.

The perpetrators were almost solely of North African / Arabic appearance. There were similar large scale attacks in other cities, notably Hamburg, and the evidence supports the theory that these attacks were co-ordinated.

Talking about other attacks by white people at the Oktoberfest or elsewhere is the kind of whitabootery usually employed by Celtc and Rangers Fans to excuse their own behaviour, desipite it being totally irrelevant.

I'm in faovur of the West doing its duty by talking care of refugees from conflicts that it is largely responsible for but that doesn't mean we should close our eyes to these events.

[lyonhibs]

http://m.huffpost.com/de/entry/8916730?

As with any group/culture, there are ********s and very decent people.

[Future17]

I already wrote what you were wrong about but, here it is, for emphasis.

You said that there were between two and 40 attacks, as evidenced by the chief of police, but the number of reported attacks is actually now over 300 and the Police chief has been forced to resign, after refusing to act when it became clear the scale of the situation and the ethnic origin of most of the perpetrators, and then attempting a cover up.

No, he didn't.

[Hibrandenburg]

I already wrote what you were wrong about but, here it is, for emphasis.

You said that there were between two and 40 attacks, as evidenced by the chief of police, but the number of reported attacks is actually now over 300 and the Police chief has been forced to resign, after refusing to act when it became clear the scale of the situation and the ethnic origin of most of the perpetrators, and then attempting a cover up.

The perpetrators were almost solely of North African / Arabic appearance. There were similar large scale attacks in other cities, notably Hamburg, and the evidence supports the theory that these attacks were co-ordinated.

Talking about other attacks by white people at the Oktoberfest or elsewhere is the kind of whitabootery usually employed by Celtc and Rangers Fans to excuse their own behaviour, desipite it being totally irrelevant.

I'm in faovur of the West doing its duty by talking care of refugees from conflicts that it is largely responsible for but that doesn't mean we should close our eyes to these events.

I said nothing of the kind :confused:

I'm slowly getting the feeling that many people are reading what they want to hear, probably because that way they can justify their own irrational prejudices.

All this talk about having open discussion on the subject is pointless if you don't read what is said and only take on board what you want to think has been said.

[Hibrandenburg]

No, he didn't.

Praise be to Allah, someone's actually listening :greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

This is, in my opinion one of the most balanced reports


http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14193974.We_need_to_talk_about_Cologne_____but_let _s_not_talk_nonsense/

[Hibrandenburg]

This is, in my opinion one of the most balanced reports


http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14193974.We_need_to_talk_about_Cologne_____but_let _s_not_talk_nonsense/

Excellent article. Well balanced but above all rational.

[Rasta_Hibs]

But you haven't addressed it.

I have if you read back the thread.

This makes interesting reading. Blame laid directly at the migrants from North Africa.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12092354/Cologne-sex-attacks-New-Years-Eve-cases-rise-to-more-than-500.html

Attacks almost exclusively carried out by migrants

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35280386

[Rasta_Hibs]

Increased tax take and economic contributions.

Cultural and social integration.

Contributions to art, architecture and music.

Increased tolerance and diversity of a sort that we have never seen before.

But, of course, you could say that about any set of immigrants, going all the way back to the Romans. :greengrin

Yes you could but the question was and is what positives has Islam contributed to the UK.

I can list lots and lots of negatives.

[Future17]

Yes you could but the question was and is what positives has Islam contributed to the UK.

I can list lots and lots of negatives.

Your question has been answered (as much as it is possible to), but it only really makes sense if you're comparing it to the positive contributions of other religions to the UK.

Is that what you're trying to do?

[Moulin Yarns]

Firstly show me the positive culture contribution Muslims have made to the UK? More positives than negatives? Please enlighten me?

Our culture is diverse enough. What's makes you say adding more and more Muslims to the mix is going to improve on an already successful society?


With respect you have not answered my question when i have answered yours. Whilst the above personal experience is lovely for you it didnt answer the question asked.

What positive contribution has Islam made to UK society as a whole? Not just for the muslim comminity but what has Islam done for wider UK society - what are the positives?

Which question do you think CWG has not answered? you change the question yourself.

[cabbageandribs1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35280386

Nineteen individuals are currently under investigation by the state police in connection with the attacks, NRW's interior ministry says , none of them German nationals.

Those 19 suspects include 14 men from Morocco and Algeria. Ten of the suspects are asylum seekers, nine of whom arrived in Germany after September 2015.


shocked ? nah, not in the slightest

[Moulin Yarns]

The actual crimes seem to be forgotten in the anti-migrant rhetoric. Thankfully the justice minister knows this



at a news conference on Tuesday, Heiko Maas, Germany's justice minister, said the ethnic background of the alleged perpetrators was irrelevant

[Pete]

Increased tax take and economic contributions.

Cultural and social integration.

Contributions to art, architecture and music.

Increased tolerance and diversity of a sort that we have never seen before.

But, of course, you could say that about any set of immigrants, going all the way back to the Romans. :greengrin

Perhaps for another thread but you could form arguments against all your points, maybe apart from the first. The Social and cultural integration one especially.

Also, I don't think Islam has been significant in this country for long enough for it to have any significant influence when it comes to art, music or architecture.

Our eating habits however...

[Hibrandenburg]

The actual crimes seem to be forgotten in the anti-migrant rhetoric. Thankfully the justice minister knows this

:agree: That's what happens when the old xenophobia rears it's ugly head, being of another ethnicity makes you automatically worse than a criminal, even if you live like a saint you're tarred with the same brush.

[Hibrandenburg]

Perhaps for another thread but you could form arguments against all your points, maybe apart from the first. The Social and cultural integration one especially.

Also, I don't think Islam has been significant in this country for long enough for it to have any significant influence when it comes to art, music or architecture.

Our eating habits however...

What has Islam ever done for us?:

Perfume
Algebra
Decimal counting system
Cubic equations
Sulfuric Acid
See through glass
The first anatomical understanding of the human body
The use of mathematics in astronomy
Scientific method
Introduction to the theory of natural selection
Licenced health care facilities
The first degree granting universities
Chess
Pretty awesome architecture

Many Islamic cultures were also pioneering in tolerance towards other religions and cultures within their societies which helped lead to the modern idea of freedom of speech.

Islam was an outward looking and open culture based on equal rights and progression until outside influences changed it, anyone have a guess at what those were?

[Rasta_Hibs]

What has Islam ever done for us?:

Perfume
Algebra
Decimal counting system
Cubic equations
Sulfuric Acid
See through glass
The first anatomical understanding of the human body
The use of mathematics in astronomy
Scientific method
Introduction to the theory of natural selection
Licenced health care facilities
The first degree granting universities
Chess
Pretty awesome architecture

Many Islamic cultures were also pioneering in tolerance towards other religions and cultures within their societies which helped lead to the modern idea of freedom of speech.

Islam was an outward looking and open culture based on equal rights and progression until outside influences changed it, anyone have a guess at what those were?

Yes because Christian communities are thriving throughout the middle east or being wiped out. Which one is it?

[Geo_1875]

This is, in my opinion one of the most balanced reports


http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/14193974.We_need_to_talk_about_Cologne_____but_let _s_not_talk_nonsense/

This is a well written piece but may do with revision in light of more up to date reports from Germany.

"Yet with Cologne, we still don’t know who did it. We possibly may never know what precise demographic group these men came from............."

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes because Christian communities are thriving throughout the middle east or being wiped out. Which one is it?

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/not%20worthy.gif Keep feeding the lines.

Israel, which the last time I look as in the middle east, is 82% Christian. Judaism is a branch of Christianity.

Want some more figures?

Egypt - 8.9 million Christians
Syria, yes Syria - 1.7 million
Lebanon - 1.5 million

Shocking that there should be over 12 million Christians in just 3 middle eastern countries, considering ta the Middle East is the birth place of Christianity.

Now, I wonder how many have been wiped out since I started typing?? http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/taunt%20smiley.gif

[Rasta_Hibs]

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/not%20worthy.gif Keep feeding the lines.

Israel, which the last time I look as in the middle east, is 82% Christian. Judaism is a branch of Christianity.

Want some more figures?

Egypt - 8.9 million Christians
Syria, yes Syria - 1.7 million
Lebanon - 1.5 million

Shocking that there should be over 12 million Christians in just 3 middle eastern countries, considering ta the Middle East is the birth place of Christianity.

Now, I wonder how many have been wiped out since I started typing?? http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/taunt%20smiley.gif


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/23/arab-christians-secular-arabs-isis-middle-east-minorities

Want to compare numbers from the past and the present day?

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/23/arab-christians-secular-arabs-isis-middle-east-minorities

Want to compare numbers from the past and the present day?

The article is interesting, although it doesn't confirm your opinion that Christians in the middle east are being wiped out, rather they have become refugees and asylum seekers. :wink:



Now almost everywhere Arab Christians are leaving. In the past decade maybe a quarter have made new lives in Europe, Australia and America.

[Caversham Green]

http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/not%20worthy.gif Keep feeding the lines.

Israel, which the last time I look as in the middle east, is 82% Christian. Judaism is a branch of Christianity.

Want some more figures?

Egypt - 8.9 million Christians
Syria, yes Syria - 1.7 million
Lebanon - 1.5 million

Shocking that there should be over 12 million Christians in just 3 middle eastern countries, considering ta the Middle East is the birth place of Christianity.

Now, I wonder how many have been wiped out since I started typing?? http://www.hibs.net/images/smilies/taunt%20smiley.gif

You couldn't be further from the truth there.

Christianity was an off-shoot of Judaism rather than the other way round, but Judaism denies the founding beliefs of Christianity. The two faiths have cohabited in peace for centuries, but by definition Jews are not Christian and Christians are not Jewish.

[Rasta_Hibs]

How many more of think like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jD6CN6uGZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV315xqbRK8

[Hibrandenburg]

How many more of think like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jD6CN6uGZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV315xqbRK8

So what? I could post literally hundreds of videos showing hate, death threats and other examples of disgusting right wing crap. I could also post many film clips of incidents that are supposed to involving refugees but in reality were faked.

If your apparent hate for refugees is based on what you see online then I suggest you get out more and broaden your horizons.

[(((Fergus)))]

So what? I could post literally hundreds of videos showing hate, death threats and other examples of disgusting right wing crap. I could also post many film clips of incidents that are supposed to involving refugees but in reality were faked.

If your apparent hate for refugees is based on what you see online then I suggest you get out more and broaden your horizons.

Just trying to think if there have been any instances where hundreds of British (or other European) men have congregated in a public space and openly collaborated in the molestation and rape of vulnerable women and girls? (i.e. as happened to those Dutch and US reporters in Tahrir square, Cairo, among others.)

[SausageSurprise]

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/jan/14/charlie-hebdo-cartoon-depicting-drowned-child-alan-kurdi-sparks-racism-debate

Sickening and disgraceful

[CropleyWasGod]

.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Just trying to think if there have been any instances where hundreds of British (or other European) men have congregated in a public space and openly collaborated in the molestation and rape of vulnerable women and girls? (i.e. as happened to those Dutch and US reporters in Tahrir square, Cairo, among others.)

No but I'll bet you Europeans have killed and injured far more innocent muslim civilians than the other way round. Our sins are greater IMHO because the deaths caused by our military are sanctioned by us via our government who we voted in and gave them the mandate to kill in our name, whereas the muslim extremists who do the same act on their own accord without a mandate from the muslim population. Maybe our outrage is fuelled by the fact that we make the mistake of judging them by our own standards.

[Hibrandenburg]

Just trying to think if there have been any instances where hundreds of British (or other European) men have congregated in a public space and openly collaborated in the molestation and rape of vulnerable women and girls? (i.e. as happened to those Dutch and US reporters in Tahrir square, Cairo, among others.)

Someone has also just pointed out to me that Europeans regularly abuse about 400 000 Thai kids on average in a year.

[Geo_1875]

Someone has also just pointed out to me that Europeans regularly abuse about 400 000 Thai kids on average in a year.

Hertz fans on their summer hols?

[Betty Boop]

Hertz fans on their summer hols?

Charming.

[Pete]

What has Islam ever done for us?:

Perfume
Algebra
Decimal counting system
Cubic equations
Sulfuric Acid
See through glass
The first anatomical understanding of the human body
The use of mathematics in astronomy
Scientific method
Introduction to the theory of natural selection
Licenced health care facilities
The first degree granting universities
Chess
Pretty awesome architecture

Many Islamic cultures were also pioneering in tolerance towards other religions and cultures within their societies which helped lead to the modern idea of freedom of speech.

Islam was an outward looking and open culture based on equal rights and progression until outside influences changed it, anyone have a guess at what those were?

I was hinting at a more contemporary discussion but what this does is undermine the argument that certain races of people are more savage than others and that biology has anything to do with it. A popular opinion amongst the far right who think that "these people" are beyond control and will never integrate fully. I do still firmly believe that we are a product of our society.

I'm no historian but I'm not sure about your assessment of Islam. It certainly wasn't backwards in coming forwards long before these catholic crusades that certain elements are still trying to make people feel guilty about (I mean the extremists, not yourself). They did indeed leave behind some cracking architecture though. Cordoba springs to mind. :agree:

[Pete]

Charming.

The numbers tie in.

400,000. :hmmm:

[Moulin Yarns]

A new article yesterday that looks at the events in Cologne

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/3270/yvonne-ridley-why-the-real-problem-in-the-cologne-rape-fest-has-nothing-to-do-with-race


the truth is rape is a massive problem in the world today; east or west huge numbers of women and men are being targeted by rapists and those rapists come from every background, culture, class, religion, skin colour imaginable. The only thing they have in common is their gender ... they are all men.

[Bristolhibby]

how many have come in a year? How many wives are they allowed to have? What's the average size of a muslim family?

In the future Muslims will have higher percentage. That can be no doubt. I look 25 to 30 years from now!

Better get ****ging then!

[CropleyWasGod]

So......

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany?CMP=share_btn_fb

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[HUTCHYHIBBY]

So......

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/31/teenage-girl-made-up-migrant-claim-that-caused-uproar-in-germany?CMP=share_btn_fb

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Are you trying to indicate that this might cast some doubt on the many reported incidents in Cologne?

[CropleyWasGod]

Are you trying to indicate that this might cast some doubt on the many reported incidents in Cologne?

It's about balance, establishing the facts, and rising above agendas.

The comment that disturbed me on this one is "if she lied, who put pressure on her to do so?"

[Rasta_Hibs]

It's about balance, establishing the facts, and rising above agendas.

The comment that disturbed me on this one is "if she lied, who put pressure on her to do so?"

Using this report some kind of balance on the current migrant reporting is laughable.

Yes there is an agenda at play in the media and on this thread - It is a liberal left wing agenda / ideology in the media that white washes reports of the crimes committed by migrants.

Very much like the liberals on this thread when it was being reported that the sex attacks were carried out by migrants and asylum seekers - the liberal posters were the first to deny the truth, white wash it and then sweep it under the carpet.

That is the true agenda at play In my opinion.

[Moulin Yarns]

Using this report some kind of balance on the current migrant reporting is laughable.

Yes there is an agenda at play in the media and on this thread - It is a liberal left wing agenda / ideology in the media that white washes reports of the crimes committed by migrants.

Very much like the liberals on this thread when it was being reported that the sex attacks were carried out by migrants and asylum seekers - the liberal posters were the first to deny the truth, white wash it and then sweep it under the carpet.

That is the true agenda at play In my opinion.

How do you explain this then?

From 2 days ago, after investigation and the mass hysteria has died down. It is terrible so many women were attacked and made to feel afraid, but inexcusable that it is then used by right wing groups to fuel anti migration protests and demonstrations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3423959/No-link-migrant-crisis-wave-New-Year-sex-attacks-Arab-North-African-men-women-Cologne-say-EU-leaders.html

[Rasta_Hibs]

How do you explain this then?

From 2 days ago, after investigation and the mass hysteria has died down. It is terrible so many women were attacked and made to feel afraid, but inexcusable that it is then used by right wing groups to fuel anti migration protests and demonstrations.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3423959/No-link-migrant-crisis-wave-New-Year-sex-attacks-Arab-North-African-men-women-Cologne-say-EU-leaders.html

The EU are at the centre of the Liberal Left wing ideology. Im not surprised at their stance - The EU wants to destroy the nation state, this migrant situation Is their making and at tactic to undermine western nation states and the culture.

I already previously stated earlier in the thread that the right wing would react to the liberal left policy and would be slated for it.

[(((Fergus)))]

No but I'll bet you Europeans have killed and injured far more innocent muslim civilians than the other way round. Our sins are greater IMHO because the deaths caused by our military are sanctioned by us via our government who we voted in and gave them the mandate to kill in our name, whereas the muslim extremists who do the same act on their own accord without a mandate from the muslim population. Maybe our outrage is fuelled by the fact that we make the mistake of judging them by our own standards.

Western voters didn't vote for their governments to go to muslim countries and randomly kill civilians. I agree that it was misguided to invade Afghanistan and Iraq as we did, however I don't believe the intent was analogous to that of AQ etc. or that you would suggest that. It is also the case that some demographics in those countries welcomed, and continue to welcome, our intervention.

I also agree that the outrage over Cologne et al is due to us holding fellow human beings to the same standard as ourselves, but how is that a mistake? They may behave like animals but should we formally devalue their status?


Someone has also just pointed out to me that Europeans regularly abuse about 400 000 Thai kids on average in a year.

And paedophilia and other sex crimes are also rampant in muslim society. You will also find Arabs tampering with those 400,000 children in Thailand. The difference, however, is one of shame and degree. Public group molestation/rape is a socially accepted practice in some muslim societies, whereas in Western societies it is not. The rapists and paedophiles in Tahrir Square, Cologne, etc. were unashamed of doing what they did. A public rapist in the West would be set about, not joined by other rapists.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes we did. After the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan we voted in the same government that took us there. You can't really get a better endorsement of your policies than being reelected.

Also claiming that child molestation is more socially acceptable in muslim countries is laughable when in our own society it's been rife throughout the higher echelons of our monarchy, Church and governments for centuries.

It's ridiculous to say one group of people are more accepting of sexual abuse than another, there will always be sexual predators in all societies and it's opportunity that makes the difference and nothing to do with race or religion. Ask yourself this, would a Muslim father be more sympathetic towards someone who raped his daughter than a Christian/Jewish father?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Yes we did. After the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan we voted in the same government that took us there. You can't really get a better endorsement of your policies than being reelected.

Also claiming that child molestation is more socially acceptable in muslim countries is laughable when in our own society it's been rife throughout the higher echelons of our monarchy, Church and governments for centuries.

It's ridiculous to say one group of people are more accepting of sexual abuse than another, there will always be sexual predators in all societies and it's opportunity that makes the difference and nothing to do with race or religion. Ask yourself this, would a Muslim father be more sympathetic towards someone who raped his daughter than a Christian/Jewish father?

Some muslim girls are killed by their father because of the shame brought onto the family by the girl being raped.

I have not heard of this being a common reaction from fathers In the west.

[Hibrandenburg]

Some muslim girls are killed by their father because of the shame brought onto the family by the girl being raped.

I have not heard of this being a common reaction from fathers In the west.

There we go again, the "some" being interpreted as "all".

[CropleyWasGod]

Some muslim girls are killed by their father because of the shame brought onto the family by the girl being raped.

I have not heard of this being a common reaction from fathers In the west.
Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Some Europeans, Christian and not, disown their children because they're gay or transexual. Does that mean that all Europeans or Christians are prejudiced or bigoted?

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[Rasta_Hibs]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.

Some Europeans, Christian and not, disown their children because they're gay or transexual. Does that mean that all Europeans or Christians are prejudiced or bigoted?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

In a nutshell the point I am making is that the Islamic and Western cultures are at odds with each other.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I think in a way its almost like the insane Western Policy of trying to bomb the middle eastern countries into democracy! Trying to install our democratic ways through regime change in the middle east.

For the want of a better expression the Lefties want to change the conservative Islamic way of life not through bombs but by immigration. The way it seems to me the part of the argument for immigration of these Islamic / North African migrants is that they just need time to adjust into Western values and ways of life.

As previous people on the thread have asked - Do we have the patience to do this, accept the crimes as part of the migrants settling into a new country and culture.

[Rasta_Hibs]

I think in a way its almost like the insane Western Policy of trying to bomb the middle eastern countries into democracy! Trying to install our democratic ways through regime change in the middle east.

For the want of a better expression the Lefties want to change the conservative Islamic way of life not through bombs but by immigration. The way it seems to me the part of the argument for immigration of these Islamic / North African migrants is that they just need time to adjust into Western values and ways of life.

As previous people on the thread have asked - Do we have the patience to do this, accept the crimes as part of the migrants settling into a new country and culture.

Obviously I think this is madness and why on earth anyone would want to expose our countries to these types of people is beyond stupid its a deluded ideology of the left.

[Hibrandenburg]

Obviously I think this is madness and why on earth anyone would want to expose our countries to these types of people is beyond stupid its a deluded ideology of the left.

It's got nothing to do with wanting to change their behaviour and all to do with helping fellow human beings in desperate need of assistance. Of course there's gonna be a few bad apples amongst the masses but do we close our doors to everyone because of a few idiots?

[Rasta_Hibs]

It's got nothing to do with wanting to change their behaviour and all to do with helping fellow human beings in desperate need of assistance. Of course there's gonna be a few bad apples amongst the masses but do we close our doors to everyone because of a few idiots?

No we don't but we don't do a Merkel either and announce open doors for all.

[Hibrandenburg]

No we don't but we don't do a Merkel either and announce open doors for all.

Well I'm quite happy my tax money is actually being put to good use in helping these folks. Most will go on to benefit the country in the long run, of course there will be problems of cultural differences but Germany are used to it after having millions of foreign soldiers based here since the end of WW2. I witnessed many more incidents of violence from the British community towards Germans here than I've seen from the muslim community.

[Hibrandenburg]

Over 50 percent of the attacks committed by asylum seekers yet I am in the wrong?

Yes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-only-three-out-of-58-men-arrested-in-connection-with-mass-sex-attack-on-new-years-eve-are-a6874201.html

[magpie1892]

Yes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-only-three-out-of-58-men-arrested-in-connection-with-mass-sex-attack-on-new-years-eve-are-a6874201.html

That's right - 53 of them were from Morocco and Algeria - they must have been on their holidays.

So that makes 56, and the other two were 'Germans'.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Yes.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cologne-only-three-out-of-58-men-arrested-in-connection-with-mass-sex-attack-on-new-years-eve-are-a6874201.html

Classic left wing white washing of the events! A bit like yourself really.

[Moulin Yarns]

There is mass immigration! Have you checked the numbers of muslim people on the move?

To resurrect this, I agree there is mass migration. Just look at the 2.2million British nationals living and working across the EU. Imagine the trouble repatriating them when the UK votes for Brexit. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

To resurrect this, I agree there is mass migration. Just look at the 2.2million British nationals living and working across the EU. Imagine the trouble repatriating them when the UK votes for Brexit. :wink:

Think most of them will probably take citizenship of their country of residence. That's the road I'll go down if it happens, at least until an independent Scotland returns to the EU.

[HiBremian]

Think most of them will probably take citizenship of their country of residence. That's the road I'll go down if it happens, at least until an independent Scotland returns to the EU.

This. Maybe we can have a joint ceremony/piss-up, Paul? :greengrin

[Hibrandenburg]

This. Maybe we can have a joint ceremony/piss-up, Paul? :greengrin

Et tu Richard? This name trend is gonna confuse the hell out of me. :greengrin

Always up for a good piss-up, especially if it's with delicacies from my new native land like beer n bratties!

[HiBremian]

Et tu Richard? This name trend is gonna confuse the hell out of me. :greengrin

Always up for a good piss-up, especially if it's with delicacies from my new native land like beer n bratties!

That Pink Floyd-esque username was a beginner's stab at a name I might remember! Now we can change every 21 days so why not.

[Hibrandenburg]

That Pink Floyd-esque username was a beginner's stab at a name I might remember! Now we can change every 21 days so why not.

I'll only change again if I move home to Hildesheim, I've always dreamt of having my car registered there. :wink:

[HiBremian]

I'll only change again if I move home to Hildesheim, I've always dreamt of having my car registered there. :wink:

Ah yes, HI*BS*07 or similar:greengrin

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes you could but the question was and is what positives has Islam contributed to the UK.

I can list lots and lots of negatives.

We have enjoyed watching Benji and Zemmama. Sure we all agree they were positives.

[Rasta_Hibs]

We have enjoyed watching Benji and Zemmama. Sure we all agree they were positives.

Oh 100% two of my favourite Hibs players and seemed to be nice people but even you surely would agree their performance dropped during Ramadan? haha

[CropleyWasGod]

Oh 100% two of my favourite Hibs players and seemed to be nice people but even you surely would agree their performance dropped during Ramadan? haha
It would seem that our current dip in form has coincided with Lent, so maybe we should ban Catholics as well [emoji48]

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[Rasta_Hibs]

It would seem that our current dip in form has coincided with Lent, so maybe we should ban Catholics as well [emoji48]

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Ban Stokes maybe!

[Moulin Yarns]

It would seem that our current dip in form has coincided with Lent, so maybe we should ban Catholics as well [emoji48]

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:not worth

[Rasta_Hibs]

Lifted from the Guardian site but i think its a great bunch of questions.

1. why is Turkey (a NATO country) flooding Europe with refugees?
2. why is Germany (another NATO) country inviting all and sundry (obviously some head choppers will get through) in Europe. The invitation still stands today - Merkel has not revoked it!
3. why is Europe paying extortion money to Erdogan to not flood us?
4. why have the other NATO countries not publicly slapped Erdogan down for shooting down a Russian jet and trying to start WW3?
5. why has EU/NATO not slammed Erdogan for buying stolen oil from ISIS ?
6. why has EU/NATO not slammed Turkey/KSA for supporting ISIS ?
7. why is NATO blaming Russia for the moronic actions of its own member states?

Merkel is attacking the european nations with ther immigration policies and blaming it on Russia yet the left wing still stick to their guns as crimes are committed constantly by migrants.

Ill say it now the people we are letting in, the migrants not genuine families of refugees but the millions of migrants should not be allowed in the EU and the UK.

Lots of places in the middle east they can go where their cultures and standards are more suited to each other.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7470/germany-migrants-crime

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3450983/Crime-migrants-Germany-went-79-year-offences-including-sex-assaults-murder-rise.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12160464/More-than-700-offences-are-being-committed-by-EU-migrants-every-week-official-figures-suggest.html

Quote from Hungarian Prime Minister:

""There will be no lawless districts in Hungarian cities. There will be no riots, no refugee camps set on fire and no gangs will hunt for our wives and daughters," he said, using characteristically blunt language."

I totally agree it is an utter disgrace the kinds of people Merkel has let in and needs nipped in the bud now before the left wing liberals ruin our nations with their ldeals and dreamlands.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Thoughts on the video if anyone cares to watch?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UvURb98aqU

[Beefster]

If nothing else, this thread just reinforces the fact that the Internet provides a platform for every ill-informed random to spew forth their deluded, plain wrong and offensive views.

Sometimes, if you don't know what the **** you are talking about, let some dick on YouTube form your worldview or just generalise isolated cases up to billions of people, it's best just to keep your own counsel. As the old saying goes (probably originally said by some left-wing roaster, no doubt), "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.".

[Rasta_Hibs]

If nothing else, this thread just reinforces the fact that the Internet provides a platform for every ill-informed random to spew forth their deluded, plain wrong and offensive views.

Sometimes, if you don't know what the **** you are talking about, let some dick on YouTube form your worldview or just generalise isolated cases up to billions of people, it's best just to keep your own counsel. As the old saying goes (probably originally said by some left-wing roaster, no doubt), "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.".

So everyone who thinks mass immigration of Muslim men is wrong should shut up because you are right?

[Moulin Yarns]

So everyone who thinks mass immigration of Muslim men is wrong should shut up because you are right?

Why did you assume Beefster's post was aimed at you?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Why did you assume Beefster's post was aimed at you?

it was added after I posted?

[Moulin Yarns]

it was added after I posted?

But he didn't quote you, so it was a general comment, or do you agree you are an
ill-informed randomthat
spews forth their deluded, plain wrong and offensive views. :wink:

[Hibrandenburg]

So everyone who thinks mass immigration of Muslim men is wrong should shut up because you are right?

No, you're more than welcome to debate it in a grown up sensible way but posting dubious information intended to whip up interracial unrest like it appears you like to do is distasteful. I can't help get the feeling that much of what's doing the rounds has much more than just a racist agenda. Since the beginning of the brexit campaign this sort of rubbish has increased tenfold on social media. Most of the material I'm seeing reported in English about what's going on in Germany about the refugee crisis is nowhere to be found in the German media, now that would suggest one of two possibilities :

1. It's mainly bull**** posted with the intention of scaring voters into opting for the siege mentality of the doomed that seems to be spreading like wildfire through Europe.

2. There's an X-files like conspiracy taking place in Germany to help aid the muslamic invaders massing on our borders.

[marinello59]

No, you're more than welcome to debate it in a grown up sensible way but posting dubious information intended to whip up interracial unrest like it appears you like to do is distasteful. I can't help get the feeling that much of what's doing the rounds has much more than just a racist agenda. Since the beginning of the brexit campaign this sort of rubbish has increased tenfold on social media. Most of the material I'm seeing reported in English about what's going on in Germany about the refugee crisis is nowhere to be found in the German media, now that would suggest one of two possibilities :

1. It's mainly bull**** posted with the intention of scaring voters into opting for the siege mentality of the doomed that seems to be spreading like wildfire through Europe.

2. There's an X-files like conspiracy taking place in Germany to help aid the muslamic invaders massing on our borders.

:top marks

[Hibrandenburg]

:top marks

Where's the hook? :greengrin

[marinello59]

Where's the hook? :greengrin

:greengrin

[Beefster]

So everyone who thinks mass immigration of Muslim men is wrong should shut up because you are right?

I didn't offer an opinion on mass immigration of Muslim men so I think you misread my post.

[Moulin Yarns]

Lifted from the Guardian site but i think its a great bunch of questions.

1. why is Turkey (a NATO country) flooding Europe with refugees?
2. why is Germany (another NATO) country inviting all and sundry (obviously some head choppers will get through) in Europe. The invitation still stands today - Merkel has not revoked it!
3. why is Europe paying extortion money to Erdogan to not flood us?
4. why have the other NATO countries not publicly slapped Erdogan down for shooting down a Russian jet and trying to start WW3?
5. why has EU/NATO not slammed Erdogan for buying stolen oil from ISIS ?
6. why has EU/NATO not slammed Turkey/KSA for supporting ISIS ?
7. why is NATO blaming Russia for the moronic actions of its own member states?

Merkel is attacking the european nations with ther immigration policies and blaming it on Russia yet the left wing still stick to their guns as crimes are committed constantly by migrants.

Ill say it now the people we are letting in, the migrants not genuine families of refugees but the millions of migrants should not be allowed in the EU and the UK.

Lots of places in the middle east they can go where their cultures and standards are more suited to each other.

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7470/germany-migrants-crime

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3450983/Crime-migrants-Germany-went-79-year-offences-including-sex-assaults-murder-rise.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12160464/More-than-700-offences-are-being-committed-by-EU-migrants-every-week-official-figures-suggest.html

Quote from Hungarian Prime Minister:

""There will be no lawless districts in Hungarian cities. There will be no riots, no refugee camps set on fire and no gangs will hunt for our wives and daughters," he said, using characteristically blunt language."

I totally agree it is an utter disgrace the kinds of people Merkel has let in and needs nipped in the bud now before the left wing liberals ruin our nations with their ldeals and dreamlands.

As you don't bother answering other questions I won't hold my breath, but can you provide a link to the site where you have lifted thes questions becauseI've looked and can't find it/

On the bit in bold, this quote is lifted directly from the Guardian


Turkey has about 2.6 million Syrian refugees, the largest such population in the world

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/05/europe-refugees-action-plan-turkey-syria

[Rasta_Hibs]

As you don't bother answering other questions I won't hold my breath, but can you provide a link to the site where you have lifted thes questions becauseI've looked and can't find it/

On the bit in bold, this quote is lifted directly from the Guardian



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/05/europe-refugees-action-plan-turkey-syria

All good things come to those who wait.

As pointed out my lack of debating skill have let my argument down and made my points less valid. So im away to get some good sources and ill be back to continue this debate.

[Rasta_Hibs]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/german-minister-told-police-to-remove-the-word-rape-from-cologne/

http://www.thelocal.de/20160407/cologne-cover-up-bid-came-from-the-top

http://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-made-up-most-cologne-rioters-report-says-1460034157

OK liberals I was right all along!

I don't mind being mocked for my posts but at least accept that the points I made were and are correct!

[Moulin Yarns]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/07/german-minister-told-police-to-remove-the-word-rape-from-cologne/

http://www.thelocal.de/20160407/cologne-cover-up-bid-came-from-the-top

http://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-migrants-asylum-seekers-made-up-most-cologne-rioters-report-says-1460034157

OK liberals I was right all along!

I don't mind being mocked for my posts but at least accept that the points I made were and are correct!


OK, here goes

You said
I think the events in Germany are a direct result of this kind of mass migration of these kind of people.


Your Telegraph articles says
According to the minister’s formal report to the state parliament, which was published this week, 153 suspects have so far been identified in the sexual assualts and robberies committed on New Year’s Eve.

The overwhelming majority, 149, are foreign nationals, including 103 Moroccans and Algerians.

Police believe 68 of the suspects are asylum-seekers, 18 are in Germany illegally, and four are unaccompanied minors. The reports says the immigration status of 47 is unclear.


So 68 out of 153 are asylum seekers, the rest are not, according to that article. Not what I would call
a direct result of this kind of mass migration of these kind of people

I can't access the Wall Street Journal and the other article gives no figures to analyse, but from doing the arithmetic less than half of the accused are asylum seekers or recent migrants as a result of current conflicts. Yes, they are not all German nationals, but by the same token they are not all "mass migrants" in they way that you imply.

[Rasta_Hibs]

OK, here goes

You said .


Your Telegraph articles says

So 68 out of 153 are asylum seekers, the rest are not, according to that article. Not what I would call

I can't access the Wall Street Journal and the other article gives no figures to analyse, but from doing the arithmetic less than half of the accused are asylum seekers or recent migrants as a result of current conflicts. Yes, they are not all German nationals, but by the same token they are not all "mass migrants" in they way that you imply.

To me the article clearly states the link between immigrants and the crimes committed.

I use the term mass-immigration because its the best way to describe the amount/ numbers of people migrating to Europe.

The Pope, leaders of Nato, political leaders have all used the term mass-immigration - so why not me? Because the liberals don't like it and it does not ell with their ideology - or rather it spells out there ideology out in plain language - which does not make it easy for native populations to accept.

Types of people - Muslims!

These articles spell out the problems our communities are now facing due to a failed multicultural policy!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/uk-muslim-ghettoes-warning/

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Time to get the head out the sand liberals.

[Moulin Yarns]

To me the article clearly states the link between immigrants and the crimes committed.

I use the term mass-immigration because its the best way to describe the amount/ numbers of people migrating to Europe.

The Pope, leaders of Nato, political leaders have all used the term mass-immigration - so why not me? Because the liberals don't like it and it does not ell with their ideology - or rather it spells out there ideology out in plain language - which does not make it easy for native populations to accept.

Types of people - Muslims!

These articles spell out the problems our communities are now facing due to a failed multicultural policy!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/10/uk-muslim-ghettoes-warning/

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Time to get the head out the sand liberals.

Time to read the articles and understand the facts.


The research suggests that 86% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain, which is higher than the national average of 83%. A large majority (91%) of the British Muslims who took part in the survey said they felt a strong sense of belonging in their local area, which is higher than the national average of 76%.

Of those questioned, 88% said Britain was a good place for Muslims to live in, and 78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws.


Does that sound like a problem to you? They feel more British than the average Brit.

Going back to your assertion that mass migration, that is a large incoming population in a short time is the cause of the trouble in Germany at new year.


According to the report, about two-thirds of the suspects in the melee were from Morocco or Algeria—an indication they weren't representative of the broader group of recent refugees to Germany, where Syrians make up the largest contingent

There is no evidence to link those accused of these crimes with mass migration as your obsession is intent on doing.

[hibsbollah]

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/02/uk-tabloid-reports-of-sexual-assault-by-refugees-in-frankfurt-were-completely-made-up/

Remember this?

[Hibbyradge]

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/02/uk-tabloid-reports-of-sexual-assault-by-refugees-in-frankfurt-were-completely-made-up/

Remember this?

Well done for posting that.

I saw that report, but I'd forgotten about this thread.