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View Full Version : Dundee Utd and the horrible state of Scottish football



SkintHibby
05-01-2016, 07:23 PM
Never quite realised until today that Dundee Utd look like the latest bigger club to be about to lose their "established" place in the top tier of Scottish football.

Is there no end to this fiasco?

What he could have potentially next season is clubs who fail to muster 2,000 on a regular basis and never likely to muster more and have Rangers, Hibs and Dundee Utd languashing in the Championship?

Some of you might cheer Dundee Utd being relegated but enough is enough.

Give me a top league of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Dundee anytime over the dross that is currently "entertaining" us with sub 2,000 crowds.

:rolleyes:

MWHIBBIES
05-01-2016, 07:24 PM
Dundee United, Rangers, Hearts and Hibernian all deserve/deserved to be relegated, only themselves to blame.

givescotlandfreedom
05-01-2016, 07:27 PM
I am bitter and petty and won't mourn the relegation of a club that gleefully relegated us and had a wee Hearts loving 5-1 party at ER when rat boy Rudi signed for them. I do love Mixu though.

SkintHibby
05-01-2016, 07:28 PM
Dundee United, Rangers, Hearts and Hibernian all deserve/deserved to be relegated, only themselves to blame.

Rangers were not relegated.

The powers that be will need to look at this as its just silly to lose big clubs to clubs who will never be big.

Andy74
05-01-2016, 07:29 PM
Never quite realised until today that Dundee Utd look like the latest bigger club to be about to lose their "established" place in the top tier of Scottish football.

Is there no end to this fiasco?

What he could have potentially next season is clubs who fail to muster 2,000 on a regular basis and never likely to muster more and have Rangers, Hibs and Dundee Utd languashing in the Championship?

Some of you might cheer Dundee Utd being relegated but enough is enough.

Give me a top league of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Dundee anytime over the dross that is currently "entertaining" us with sub 2,000 crowds.

:rolleyes:
You have to earn your place on the pitch. Big teams sometimes don't do well. That's the way it goes. This year they are likely to be replaced by a bigger team.

SkintHibby
05-01-2016, 07:33 PM
I'm old school and a football match without crowds is not a football match and by god that applies to Scottish football just now!

Sir David Gray
05-01-2016, 07:40 PM
I'm not sure what you want to be done about a team becoming pish though. :confused:

Dundee Utd are bottom because they deserve to be bottom, they have 18 fewer points than we had two years ago when we were relegated. They even have 3 fewer points than Hearts had at that stage that season and they were bottom at that stage.

I think that speaks volumes about how bad they actually are right now.

Lago
05-01-2016, 07:40 PM
I'm old school and a football match without crowds is not a football match and by god that applies to Scottish football just now!

Your right in everything you say, unfortunately I only see the Dun Utd situation as the latest evidence of the slow but steady decline of Scottish football. How do you stop it, don't know, could well be that the game is at a tipping point of no return. Sincerely hope not.

HUTCHYHIBBY
05-01-2016, 07:40 PM
Its hardly the smaller teams problem if bigger clubs get relegated (not including The Rangers).

Michael
05-01-2016, 07:43 PM
They've overachieved for about a decade, so it's only fair that they're relegated to even things up!

sambajustice
05-01-2016, 07:47 PM
Hopefully they'll be relegated again next season into division 2

overdrive
05-01-2016, 07:59 PM
A larger league could mitigate it, although you will still get instances of a bigger club doing badly every now and then.

eastterrace
05-01-2016, 08:02 PM
They relegated us back in 98 and beat us in the semi final 2-1 when Scotland and McIntyre scored so good ridence

Onion
05-01-2016, 08:03 PM
Never quite realised until today that Dundee Utd look like the latest bigger club to be about to lose their "established" place in the top tier of Scottish football.

Is there no end to this fiasco?

What he could have potentially next season is clubs who fail to muster 2,000 on a regular basis and never likely to muster more and have Rangers, Hibs and Dundee Utd languashing in the Championship?

Some of you might cheer Dundee Utd being relegated but enough is enough.

Give me a top league of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Dundee anytime over the dross that is currently "entertaining" us with sub 2,000 crowds.

:rolleyes:


Soon clubs will be wanting relegated to the Champ - bigger clubs, better games, genuine competition :greengrin

Centre Hawf
05-01-2016, 08:11 PM
It doesn't matter if you have 5 fans or 50 thousand. If you're not good enough to stay in a division you deserve to go down. Hearts and Rangers cheated, they deserved their punishment. We were diabolical and hired a donkey as a manager, we deserved to go down. Also I don't think Dundee United recent collapse is any evidence of Scottish Footballs decline but the utter mismanagement and recklessness of allowing Jackie Mac the outrageous bonuses for selling players.

Iggy Pope
05-01-2016, 08:14 PM
I'm old school and a football match without crowds is not a football match and by god that applies to Scottish football just now!

How old school are you and when in that schooling did Dundee United become a big club?

bod
05-01-2016, 08:19 PM
They relegated us back in 98 and beat us in the semi final 2-1 when Scotland and McIntyre scored so good ridence
We were relegated by not getting enough points,not by Dundee United

Ozyhibby
05-01-2016, 08:20 PM
The smaller clubs can out perform brighter clubs because they don't run expensive youth academies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ekhibee
05-01-2016, 08:23 PM
We were relegated by not getting enough points,not by Dundee United
Yes we were cos if we'd beaten them we wouldn't have been relegated that day.

NadeAteMyLunch!
05-01-2016, 08:25 PM
Lets just all enjoy Ryan McGowan captaining the worst DUFC side in decades

Torto7062
05-01-2016, 08:25 PM
This should be a massive wake up call to all Scottish clubs because UTD sold their pieces of treasure to Celtic and have struggled since....I bet their chairman is regretting it now...sometimes you have to look after your own clubs needs before making a shilling......
Thankfully our club plays hardball now as they did with Smellic benchboy S.Allan.

bod
05-01-2016, 08:27 PM
Yes we were cos if we'd beaten them we wouldn't have been relegated that day.

You get relegated by your seasons results not by 1 game

chippy
05-01-2016, 08:28 PM
I've always hated the small artificially created leagues dating from the late 70s. I think it is one of the main reasons for the deterioration in the quality and profile of our football and was ruthlessly exploited by the old firm to entrench their hold over Scottish football. It did not help the other big city clubs to challenge when the 1st priority was to avoid relegation. There was little space to develop youth and give them game time. The old youth conveyor belts of Hibs and other clubs dried up and we started buying journeymen from England to match our rivals.It was tough for relegated clubs like Dundee, Falkirk, Dunfermilne with decent crowds to get back up. In a 16 or 18 club premiership we had around 200 to 230 Scottish players playing at the top level regularly. If a club blooded young players and did well the bigger clubs could get a good idea if they would make it with them. It gave the Scotland manager a huge pool of talent to choose from. Many good young players went to England creating more space for youngsters and giving the Scotland manager a massive pool of players to choose from. How many scots players are playing in the Scottish Premiership now regularly. Say 12 teams with 8 - 12 scots each. That is being generous to some clubs. The pool of talent is halved at least in a smaller league apart from all the knock on effects over a number of seasons. So instead of having a pool of scots over a 10'year period of some 2,000 to 3,000 we have around 1000-1200. Some 1000-2000 lost opportunities for our scots youth. No wonder Strachan wanted Hibs and the Huns up last season
it will be another massive self defeating exercise if we do not expand the league and instead get caught up in keeping the leagues small for no helpful,reason or because we want sevco or united to suffer.
its been well,argued before that playing each other twice will narrow the points gap with sevco and Celtic. I think that proportionately the old firm are likely to lose more points to other clubs if theynolymplay them twice a,season than four times.
i know that the purists don't want any splits in a 16 team league but I'd accept a Belgian/ Danish model to get the bigger league.Sure ICT, Ross County, Hamilton, St Johnstone have done very well with the resources they have but they are never going to attract big crowds. Let's go back to bigger leagues as, I think that will,also help these clubs to be long term members of the premiership.

Onion
05-01-2016, 08:31 PM
This should be a massive wake up call to all Scottish clubs because UTD sold their pieces of treasure to Celtic and have struggled since....I bet their chairman is regretting it now...sometimes you have to look after your own clubs needs before making a shilling......
Thankfully our club plays hardball now as they did with Smellic benchboy S.Allan.

No club the size of DUFC should be 2 players away from relegation from the Prem. General mismanagement is at the root of their problems.

Big L
05-01-2016, 08:34 PM
Dun Utd are where they are because they couldn't wait to grab the old firm cash, ring any bells!!! I say that not just because of Brown Thomson Whittaker etc but mainly because of Petrie selling Stokes, from that moment Yogi didn't have a chance and neither did we, thats why we went down and we have been in trouble ever since.

Waxy
05-01-2016, 08:35 PM
Dundee utd have been massively overachieving for the last 35 years.

CropleyWasGod
05-01-2016, 08:37 PM
Dundee utd have been massively overachieving for the last 35 years.

I have never understood the word "overachieving". In the early to mid 80's, they were one of the best teams in Europe.

Northernhibee
05-01-2016, 08:38 PM
Dun Utd are where they are because they couldn't wait to grab the old firm cash, ring any bells!!! I say that not just because of Brown Thomson Whittaker etc but mainly because of Petrie selling Stokes, from that moment Yogi didn't have a chance and neither did we, thats why we went down and we have been in trouble ever since.

Selling Stokes was a good move.

HibsNutter
05-01-2016, 08:41 PM
I've struggled to pay any attention to the SPL since we went down, and only really watched our own games when we were there since Rangers were demoted, let's face it, it's boring without any sort of title race from a neutral point of view, you'd be a fool to doubt that.

It will become a lot more attractive when ourselves and Rangers go up - it would help if another big club like Dundee United could escape play-off danger, also, which is admittedly unlikely - which I am confident will happen this season.

Big L
05-01-2016, 08:49 PM
Selling Stokes was a good move.

Stokes is the highest scorer per games than anyone I can think off in the past twp decades, he and Riordan were putting away over 40 goals a season between them. My point is that when they sold him things went from bad to worse.p, and culminated in relegation.

Waxy
05-01-2016, 08:54 PM
I have never understood the word "overachieving". In the early to mid 80's, they were one of the best teams in Europe.for 70 years before that they were firmly Dundees second team.

truehibernian
05-01-2016, 08:59 PM
United are very much in that position Hibs were in after the sales of Brown, Thomson, GOC however they don't have a Fletcher, Murphy or Jones to provide extra funds.....they're in free fall and I honestly can't see many players wanting to join them permanently - which again mirrors Hibs and the loan market as a stop gap measure.

I'd like big Mixu to do well but can't help thinking this was the wrong job for him - I always thought he'd try England after his international management career. He needs a creative midfielder and a strong centre half as their keepers look hopeless when balls are delivered into the box - I wonder if he'll ask Hibs for Jordon Forster on loan as in my opinion that would be a good move for both parties and I think their defence needs someone who'd head a brick wall for them !!

Dashing Bob S
05-01-2016, 09:14 PM
Can't shed a tear for any relegated club, even Hibs, so I couldn't give a toss about Dundee United.

Wellbankhibby
05-01-2016, 09:18 PM
Never quite realised until today that Dundee Utd look like the latest bigger club to be about to lose their "established" place in the top tier of Scottish football.

Is there no end to this fiasco?

What he could have potentially next season is clubs who fail to muster 2,000 on a regular basis and never likely to muster more and have Rangers, Hibs and Dundee Utd languashing in the Championship?

Some of you might cheer Dundee Utd being relegated but enough is enough.

Give me a top league of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Dundee anytime over the dross that is currently "entertaining" us with sub 2,000 crowds.

:rolleyes:

FWIW I agree 100% with you. Scottish football is killing itself. Whatever our opinions I think we are a laughing stock now. I dont like Rangers or Hearts, they cheated and deserved to be demoted to the lower regions. I dont think the powers that be went far enough, they shouldnt be permitted to sign players, come to think of it for the life of me I dont know where both of these so called clubs have the money to buy players BUT we need to be in the top league and so do Dundee United. It is the greed of all clubs that we play teams 4 times a season excluding possible cup games. For the good of scottish football we really have to make changes. I think we should suffer in the short time for the benefit of all of Scottish football. 16 team league / 30 games plus cup ties. Introduce sections again in league cup games where you can field fringe and young players and bring back the reserve leagues. Invest money back into schools to finance sports teachers and janitors who spend time teaching the game to youngsters and finally build more sports centres. Get the kids away from video games and tv the whole night. Employ coaches on a full term basis to get the kids kicking a ball about allowing them to learn new skills in a safe environment. Yes we will lose revenue in the short term but I think scottish football and the National team will flourish again. It is a joke to see all of these big clubs in the lower leagues.
I still think there is a place for play offs but it should be bottom club Premier relegated automatically top of championship promoted automatically and 2nd and 3rd bottom premier in play offs against and 2nd and 3rd top championship winner promoted. The three biggest issues I see wrong are cost of games, playing the same team too often and the lack of youth players breaking into First team squads. As a Hibee of 0ver 50 years I just missed seeing the famous five but I was lucky enough to watch the Tornadoes strutt their stuff. WE MUST GET PROMOTION THIS SEASON. I know some of you will say if your bottom you deserve to be relegated, this is true but surely we have to look at the bigger picture for the good of the game in Scotland.:agree:

truehibernian
05-01-2016, 09:23 PM
Can't shed a tear for any relegated club, even Hibs, so I couldn't give a toss about Dundee United.

Listening to Maurice Malpas tonight made me feel exactly the same Bob !!

Weststandwanab
05-01-2016, 09:27 PM
Dundee United, Rangers, Hearts and Hibernian all deserve/deserved to be relegated, only themselves to blame.

The Rangers were not relegated.


I am bitter and petty and won't mourn the relegation of a club that gleefully relegated us and had a wee Hearts loving 5-1 party at ER when rat boy Rudi signed for them. I do love Mixu though.

I agree remember Houston's part in that fiasco.


A larger league could mitigate it, although you will still get instances of a bigger club doing badly every now and then.

The minute it looks like The Rangers are at risk of not making it reconstruction will happen and I suspect Malpas is praying this will happen.

Andy74
05-01-2016, 09:37 PM
Selling Stokes was a good move.

Not in a football sense it wasn't.

rcarter1
05-01-2016, 09:38 PM
United are very much in that position Hibs were in after the sales of Brown, Thomson, GOC however they don't have a Fletcher, Murphy or Jones to provide extra funds.....they're in free fall and I honestly can't see many players wanting to join them permanently - which again mirrors Hibs and the loan market as a stop gap measure.

I'd like big Mixu to do well but can't help thinking this was the wrong job for him - I always thought he'd try England after his international management career. He needs a creative midfielder and a strong centre half as their keepers look hopeless when balls are delivered into the box - I wonder if he'll ask Hibs for Jordon Forster on loan as in my opinion that would be a good move for both parties and I think their defence needs someone who'd head a brick wall for them !!

The similarity is scary. Mr Thompson; selling your best talent - to your Cup Final rivals - and incentivised by a manager making a cut - makes Petrie look positively genius :crazy:. I feel bad for the fans, and the players remaining at the club, (and to an extent Mixu).

Smartie
05-01-2016, 09:40 PM
Truly crap teams who are miles bottom of the league deserve to be relegated.

It doesn't matter how bad Scottish football gets, that fact should never change.

It's playing fast and loose with the rules that has undermined the credibility of our game more than anything.

greenpaper55
05-01-2016, 09:48 PM
FWIW I agree 100% with you. Scottish football is killing itself. Whatever our opinions I think we are a laughing stock now. I dont like Rangers or Hearts, they cheated and deserved to be demoted to the lower regions. I dont think the powers that be went far enough, they shouldnt be permitted to sign players, come to think of it for the life of me I dont know where both of these so called clubs have the money to buy players BUT we need to be in the top league and so do Dundee United. It is the greed of all clubs that we play teams 4 times a season excluding possible cup games. For the good of scottish football we really have to make changes. I think we should suffer in the short time for the benefit of all of Scottish football. 16 team league / 30 games plus cup ties. Introduce sections again in league cup games where you can field fringe and young players and bring back the reserve leagues. Invest money back into schools to finance sports teachers and janitors who spend time teaching the game to youngsters and finally build more sports centres. Get the kids away from video games and tv the whole night. Employ coaches on a full term basis to get the kids kicking a ball about allowing them to learn new skills in a safe environment. Yes we will lose revenue in the short term but I think scottish football and the National team will flourish again. It is a joke to see all of these big clubs in the lower leagues.
I still think there is a place for play offs but it should be bottom club Premier relegated automatically top of championship promoted automatically and 2nd and 3rd bottom premier in play offs against and 2nd and 3rd top championship winner promoted. The three biggest issues I see wrong are cost of games, playing the same team too often and the lack of youth players breaking into First team squads. As a Hibee of 0ver 50 years I just missed seeing the famous five but I was lucky enough to watch the Tornadoes strutt their stuff. WE MUST GET PROMOTION THIS SEASON. I know some of you will say if your bottom you deserve to be relegated, this is true but surely we have to look at the bigger picture for the good of the game in Scotland.:agree:

Spot on, but what chance have you got when the clubs are run by people like Petrie and his pal up at Aberdeen who both wanted a 10 team league as financially it was better for the 10 clubs, never mind what the supporters want !.

Wellbankhibby
05-01-2016, 09:58 PM
Spot on, but what chance have you got when the clubs are run by people like Petrie and his pal up at Aberdeen who both wanted a 10 team league as financially it was better for the 10 clubs, never mind what the supporters want !.

Agree with you but thats whats wrong the powers that be are not listening to the Fans.
Too expensive, Repetative Games, less and less young scottish talent. I dont agree with this stupid split too when you can end up in the bottom half with more points than the top half. CRAZY
No Wonder Fans are voting with their feet and staying at home. I used to travel to all home games as a season ticket holder with my Brother. We are from Dundee but we both got so bored and it is now far too expensive. When we want to go to a big game or a cup final we are called Glory hunters. If you stay in Edinburgh you are very lucky you can jump on a supporters bus for a very reasonable cost and you also have very little travel costs. Bring back an exciting product at a reasonable price and give me RECONSTRUCTION. I will make my way back to my beloved EASTER ROAD

jgl07
05-01-2016, 09:59 PM
Dundee United, Rangers, Hearts and Hibernian all deserve/deserved to be relegated, only themselves to blame.
Except, of course, that Rangers were not relegated.

SausageSurprise
05-01-2016, 10:04 PM
Stokes is the highest scorer per games than anyone I can think off in the past twp decades, he and Riordan were putting away over 40 goals a season between them. My point is that when they sold him things went from bad to worse.p, and culminated in relegation.

We really showed those pesky Slovenians eh? Keeping them on the bench in the away tie. It wasn't Yogis finest hour let's put it that way

DavieRoy
05-01-2016, 10:12 PM
It is an interesting debate.

One of the posters said that all the clubs deserved to be relegated and that is spot on, but maybe we have to look at the bigger picture.


People moan on here about TV deals and sponsors and how Scottish football doesn't get good enough deals. No organisation deserves lucrative deals, no matter how many licence payers, subscribers etc Scotland provides.

I am sick of looking at empty stands, banners in empty stands, even a bus and garden shed too inside stadiums. Not really how we want to show off our league and it doesn't make it easy to sell the product. Most of the games are Saturday 3pm too remember.

Hearts v Celtic, Rangers v Hibernian and the Dundee Derby were all on TV recently and all sold out. A much better and easier way to sell the product.

The problem is, no team deserves a place in a league because of their size and no team deserves punted because they are smaller clubs.

MWHIBBIES
05-01-2016, 10:14 PM
Except, of course, that Rangers were not relegated.They deserved to end up in the 3rd division, whatever...

Wellbankhibby
05-01-2016, 10:15 PM
it is an interesting debate.

One of the posters said that all the clubs deserved to be relegated and that is spot on, but maybe we have to look at the bigger picture.


People moan on here about tv deals and sponsors and how scottish football doesn't get good enough deals. No organisation deserves lucrative deals, no matter how many licence payers, subscribers etc scotland provides.

I am sick of looking at empty stands, banners in empty stands, even a bus and garden shed too inside stadiums. Not really how we want to show off our league and it doesn't make it easy to sell the product. Most of the games are saturday 3pm too remember.

Hearts v celtic, rangers v hibernian and the dundee derby were all on tv recently and all sold out. A much better and easier way to sell the product.

The problem is, no team deserves a place in a league because of their size and no team deserves punted because they are smaller clubs.

100% spot on:

Sammy7nil
05-01-2016, 10:16 PM
Listening to Maurice Malpas tonight made me feel exactly the same Bob !!

All Malpas said was Utd needed a player in the dresssing room others were afraid that player needed to grab others by the throat. That is what Foran did at ICT and they nearly didn't get relegated :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:How did that man ever get a job at our club :confused:

truehibernian
05-01-2016, 10:22 PM
We really showed those pesky Slovenians eh? Keeping them on the bench in the away tie. It wasn't Yogis finest hour let's put it that way

Were you at both games ? Not arguing just asking - because home and away Maribor were excellent technically and tactically - Deek and Stokes wouldn't have made any difference at all (indeed no difference at all at ER bar first 15 minutes) - We were lucky to keep it at the score we did - and they let Ed de Graaf score twice which showed 'those Slovenians' also had a sense of humour !

OsloHibs
05-01-2016, 10:31 PM
Lets just all enjoy Ryan McGowan captaining the worst DUFC side in decades

:agree::aok:

silverhibee
05-01-2016, 10:33 PM
Dundee United, Rangers, Hearts and Hibernian all deserve/deserved to be relegated, only themselves to blame.

Rangers & h****s weren't relegated, and so far neither have Utd, but it's not looking good for them that's for sure.

Out the 4 you mention we are the only ones to have been relegated, through poor miss management from the top of the club, poor manager after poor manager, we were on a steady downfall since Yogi left and the man in charge (Petrie) got it wrong each time he picked a new manager and the club was going downhill and Butcher put the final nail in the coffin.

Hopefully Leeann and Stubbs have got us going in the right direction and take us back up to the top league, sell our top player in this window and some fans might just go "no chance nothing has changed" and fall away from supporting the club, the bids will come in for JC this window, lets hope Hibs are true to there word and our top player stays.

silverhibee
05-01-2016, 10:39 PM
Your right in everything you say, unfortunately I only see the Dun Utd situation as the latest evidence of the slow but steady decline of Scottish football. How do you stop it, don't know, could well be that the game is at a tipping point of no return. Sincerely hope not.

This is how i see it too, Scottish football is on it's knees, no one outside Scotland could give a toss about it, but how do you go about stopping it, I don't no and it seems the folk who run Scottish football don't either.

Prices are a big problem. 22 to watch Hibs vs Dumbarton, far to expensive for what is on show.

macca70
05-01-2016, 10:39 PM
The 4th biggest attendance on Saturday was at Dunfermline, in Scotland's 3rd Tier, dreadful times for Scottish football

silverhibee
05-01-2016, 10:46 PM
Not in a football sense it wasn't.

:agree:

Yogi wanted to keep him.

But as was explained, Stokes had to leave Hibs. And Hibs made sure he did.

truehibernian
05-01-2016, 10:48 PM
This is how i see it too, Scottish football is on it's knees, no one outside Scotland could give a toss about it, but how do you go about stopping it, I don't no and it seems the folk who run Scottish football don't either.

Prices are a big problem. 22 to watch Hibs vs Dumbarton, far to expensive for what is on show.

It's all about incentives SH - winning the League Cup gives a wee but kudos, nowt else - give the winners a Euro place but ensure each club from SPL can only play 4 over 21's !

Relegation - winners from Championship promoted, last place SPL relegated, then 10th and 11th SPL go into a league format with 2nd and 3rd from Championship.

Scottish Cup - sod the seeding - get clubs in from the start - the romance needs reignited and you only get that when everyone is in it from the off !

chinaman
05-01-2016, 10:50 PM
Never quite realised until today that Dundee Utd look like the latest bigger club to be about to lose their "established" place in the top tier of Scottish football.

Is there no end to this fiasco?

What he could have potentially next season is clubs who fail to muster 2,000 on a regular basis and never likely to muster more and have Rangers, Hibs and Dundee Utd languashing in the Championship?

Some of you might cheer Dundee Utd being relegated but enough is enough.

Give me a top league of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Dundee anytime over the dross that is currently "entertaining" us with sub 2,000 crowds.

:rolleyes:
I'd LOVE a league that never had the filthy huns in it EVER AGAIN.

Ozyhibby
05-01-2016, 11:00 PM
In Australian sport there is no relegation. Teams are picked for their ability to attract fans to the game.
It's a system that works very well for them and they have great crowds at their events.
We have about 16 full time clubs in this country. We should build a league around them and let the rest go their own way.
If another club wants to join the set up the should have to show the have the sustainable finance to go full time and that they can bring fans to the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

truehibernian
05-01-2016, 11:03 PM
In Australian sport there is no relegation. Teams are picked for their ability to attract fans to the game.
It's a system that works very well for them and they have great crowds at their events.
We have about 16 full time clubs in this country. We should build a league around them and let the rest go their own way.
If another club wants to join the set up the should have to show the have the sustainable finance to go full time and that they can bring fans to the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Far too sentimental a country here Ozy and history and nostalgia is always the fly in the ointment with that plan - Australia in a great many things are forward thinking and don't sit on sentiment. Added to which there are suits from small clubs feeding from the SFA table - it's not going to happen.

League reconstruction will happen however - I'm convinced it'll be next season too !

weecounty hibby
05-01-2016, 11:05 PM
We need to do something radical. At ER on Saturday, 3rd v 4th. 4th placed team start to waste time from about the 10th minute, play anti football and kick anything that moved. People will stop coming when that is happening. I would have two leagues of 16, get rid of some of the teams that just take up space. We all know the ones, East Stirling, Berwick Rangers, etc. Have a conference type system like in American football where teams can play across divisions as well. Top four teams in each conference play each other in knockouts to see who becomes champions. We need to do something that makes us different/stand out for broadcasters. I haven't thought too much or for too long about this, as you may all have noticed, but something needs to happen. Bring in rules around home grown players, certain ages etc too. I'm sure there will be holes picked inall of this but at the moment our games governors aren't coming up with anything new

jgl07
05-01-2016, 11:17 PM
They deserved to end up in the 3rd division, whatever...
I disagree. They should have started in the South of Scotland League or the East of Scotland League and not been allowed to jump the queue.

MWHIBBIES
05-01-2016, 11:20 PM
Rangers & h****s weren't relegated, and so far neither have Utd, but it's not looking good for them that's for sure.

Out the 4 you mention we are the only ones to have been relegated, through poor miss management from the top of the club, poor manager after poor manager, we were on a steady downfall since Yogi left and the man in charge (Petrie) got it wrong each time he picked a new manager and the club was going downhill and Butcher put the final nail in the coffin.

Hopefully Leeann and Stubbs have got us going in the right direction and take us back up to the top league, sell our top player in this window and some fans might just go "no chance nothing has changed" and fall away from supporting the club, the bids will come in for JC this window, lets hope Hibs are true to there word and our top player stays.Hearts finished bottom of the league?

cabbageandribs1875
05-01-2016, 11:29 PM
for 70 years before that they were firmly Dundees second team.


no they weren't, there's hardly been a season without one team taking points off the other

overall in league games


Dundee utd wins 63 Dundee wins 40

29 drawn

obviously there's been the odd season where one team won all the games that season

jgl07
05-01-2016, 11:32 PM
no they weren't, there's hardly been a season without one team taking points off the other

overall in league games

Dundee utd wins 63 Dundee wins 40
Because Dundee United were usually in the lower Division (and rarely played Dundee) prior to Jim McLean taking them forward.

Sir David Gray
05-01-2016, 11:33 PM
The 4th biggest attendance on Saturday was at Dunfermline, in Scotland's 3rd Tier, dreadful times for Scottish football

They were paying tribute to Norrie McCathie at Saturday's game so that explains the bumper crowd they had.

cabbageandribs1875
05-01-2016, 11:34 PM
Because Dundee United were usually in the lower Division (and rarely played Dundee) prior to Jim McLean taking them forward.



they've been taking points off of each other since season 1925/26, there's been one period of 8 years and another of 7 years when they weren't in same league(mid thirties and early 40's) utd won a heck of a lot of games before Mclean joined

Dan Sarf
06-01-2016, 12:02 AM
I've always hated the small artificially created leagues dating from the late 70s. I think it is one of the main reasons for the deterioration in the quality and profile of our football and was ruthlessly exploited by the old firm to entrench their hold over Scottish football. It did not help the other big city clubs to challenge when the 1st priority was to avoid relegation. There was little space to develop youth and give them game time. The old youth conveyor belts of Hibs and other clubs dried up and we started buying journeymen from England to match our rivals.It was tough for relegated clubs like Dundee, Falkirk, Dunfermilne with decent crowds to get back up. In a 16 or 18 club premiership we had around 200 to 230 Scottish players playing at the top level regularly. If a club blooded young players and did well the bigger clubs could get a good idea if they would make it with them. It gave the Scotland manager a huge pool of talent to choose from. Many good young players went to England creating more space for youngsters and giving the Scotland manager a massive pool of players to choose from. How many scots players are playing in the Scottish Premiership now regularly. Say 12 teams with 8 - 12 scots each. That is being generous to some clubs. The pool of talent is halved at least in a smaller league apart from all the knock on effects over a number of seasons. So instead of having a pool of scots over a 10'year period of some 2,000 to 3,000 we have around 1000-1200. Some 1000-2000 lost opportunities for our scots youth. No wonder Strachan wanted Hibs and the Huns up last season
it will be another massive self defeating exercise if we do not expand the league and instead get caught up in keeping the leagues small for no helpful,reason or because we want sevco or united to suffer.
its been well,argued before that playing each other twice will narrow the points gap with sevco and Celtic. I think that proportionately the old firm are likely to lose more points to other clubs if theynolymplay them twice a,season than four times.
i know that the purists don't want any splits in a 16 team league but I'd accept a Belgian/ Danish model to get the bigger league.Sure ICT, Ross County, Hamilton, St Johnstone have done very well with the resources they have but they are never going to attract big crowds. Let's go back to bigger leagues as, I think that will,also help these clubs to be long term members of the premiership.

Exactly.

jacomo
06-01-2016, 12:16 AM
In Australian sport there is no relegation. Teams are picked for their ability to attract fans to the game.
It's a system that works very well for them and they have great crowds at their events.
We have about 16 full time clubs in this country. We should build a league around them and let the rest go their own way.
If another club wants to join the set up the should have to show the have the sustainable finance to go full time and that they can bring fans to the game.


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The Aussies are welcome to organise their sport as they wish.

I don't ever want to see promotion and relegation lost from our Leagues - the flip site of big clubs going down is smaller clubs living the dream, and I like that. You made a good point about smaller Scottish clubs not bothering with their own youth set ups, but I still would never want to deny them the opportunity of achieving big things.

League reconstruction has to happen, though. A larger top League would bring more stability, and freshen things up.

silverhibee
06-01-2016, 12:26 AM
Hearts finished bottom of the league?

Me and you both bad.

The tramps were given a points deduction that seen them relegated.

MWHIBBIES
06-01-2016, 12:45 AM
Me and you both bad.

The tramps were given a points deduction that seen them relegated.That came from the shambolic running of their club for years.

jgl07
06-01-2016, 01:54 AM
OK so Dundee United are a bigger club that the likes of Hamilton Accies and Ross County but they are nothing on the scale of the likes of Hibs, Hearts, Rangers despite having a bit of success in the 1980s. It is hardly a tragedy any more than Motherwell, Killie, or, for that matter, Dundee getting relegated.

The real problem lies in the ten/twelve team top league.

Dundee United seem certain to go down. It is also very clear to two out of Hibs, Rangers, Killie and Falkirk will be outside the top Division next season.

Two or three more years like the last few could damage the SPFL beyond repair. It may already be too late to save it. This tinkering with the League Cup format is rather like shuffling deckchairs on the Titanic.Reconstruction to a 16/18 team top Division at leaves it with a chance.

givescotlandfreedom
06-01-2016, 01:58 AM
The Aussies are welcome to organise their sport as they wish.

I don't ever want to see promotion and relegation lost from our Leagues - the flip site of big clubs going down is smaller clubs living the dream, and I like that. You made a good point about smaller Scottish clubs not bothering with their own youth set ups, but I still would never want to deny them the opportunity of achieving big things.

League reconstruction has to happen, though. A larger top League would bring more stability, and freshen things up.

Agreed. Where the excitement if you finish anywhere but top in that setup?

mjhibby
06-01-2016, 04:12 AM
This should be a massive wake up call to all Scottish clubs because UTD sold their pieces of treasure to Celtic and have struggled since....I bet their chairman is regretting it now...sometimes you have to look after your own clubs needs before making a shilling......
Thankfully our club plays hardball now as they did with Smellic benchboy S.Allan.

There are striking similarities between ourselves and utd chiefly constantly selling their best players leading to the slow decline of the club's. Still no excuse when you see what the likes of Hamilton and Partick have done on a fraction of our budget. Good recruitment is the key something Stubbs seems pretty damn good at.

Lucius Apuleius
06-01-2016, 06:28 AM
There are striking similarities between ourselves and utd chiefly constantly selling their best players leading to the slow decline of the club's. Still no excuse when you see what the likes of Hamilton and Partick have done on a fraction of our budget. Good recruitment is the key something Stubbs seems pretty damn good at.

Hmm, not sure Partick or Hamilton have done anything.

MWHIBBIES
06-01-2016, 06:38 AM
There are striking similarities between ourselves and utd chiefly constantly selling their best players leading to the slow decline of the club's. Still no excuse when you see what the likes of Hamilton and Partick have done on a fraction of our budget. Good recruitment is the key something Stubbs seems pretty damn good at.It isn't the constantly selling the best players, it is replacing them badly.

With the money in the English game now there isn't really likely to be a time that Hibs, Dundee United or even Celtic can hold onto their best players. Planning ahead and replacing them well is the key to success.

humins
06-01-2016, 08:47 AM
I've struggled to pay any attention to the SPL since we went down, and only really watched our own games when we were there since Rangers were demoted, let's face it, it's boring without any sort of title race from a neutral point of view, you'd be a fool to doubt that.

It will become a lot more attractive when ourselves and Rangers go up - it would help if another big club like Dundee United could escape play-off danger, also, which is admittedly unlikely - which I am confident will happen this season.


A title race between the ugly sisters is and always was boring to non old firm fans, Scottish football's problems are & have been for a long long time been because of the fact that the vast majority of paying fans base their support on sectarianism/tradition rather than their local team or personal connections. Who cares which Glasgow sectarian club wins the league, two cheeks of the same arse, & I don't give a monkeys about the SPL results because we're not there. Next year hopefully I'll be an SPL addict (while not caring about the huns results in the championship).

Keith_M
06-01-2016, 09:04 AM
A title race between the ugly sisters is and always was boring to non old firm fans, Scottish football's problems are & have been for a long long time been because of the fact that the vast majority of paying fans base their support on sectarianism/tradition rather than their local team or personal connections. Who cares which Glasgow sectarian club wins the league, two cheeks of the same arse, & I don't give a monkeys about the SPL results because we're not there. Next year hopefully I'll be an SPL addict (while not caring about the huns results in the championship).


This.

Expecting Rain
06-01-2016, 09:35 AM
Dun Utd are where they are because they couldn't wait to grab the old firm cash, ring any bells!!! I say that not just because of Brown Thomson Whittaker etc but mainly because of Petrie selling Stokes, from that moment Yogi didn't have a chance and neither did we, thats why we went down and we have been in trouble ever since.

Stokes, Zemmama,Benji, Liam Miller, Fletcher.

Northernhibee
06-01-2016, 09:48 AM
Hmm, not sure Partick or Hamilton have done anything.

Hamilton relegated us over two legs.

silverhibee
06-01-2016, 11:43 AM
That came from the shambolic running of their club for years.

Who are we talking about here, Hibs or the tramps.

Ozyhibby
06-01-2016, 11:44 AM
Who are we talking about here, Hibs or the tramps.

Still amazes me that we managed to get in a worse state than the yams yet our board survived.


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Peevemor
06-01-2016, 11:51 AM
Still amazes me that we managed to get in a worse state than the yams yet our board survived.


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Erm, a new Chief Executive was appointed (who has been permitted to make radical changes in all departments), the 2 main shareholders are currently selling their shares to the fans and 2 new members have been elected to the board by the supporters.

Maybe you hadn't noticed?

Ozyhibby
06-01-2016, 11:58 AM
Erm, a new Chief Executive was appointed (who has been permitted to make radical changes in all departments), the 2 main shareholders are currently selling their shares to the fans and 2 new members have been elected to the board by the supporters.

Maybe you hadn't noticed?

They are not selling their shares. They have created new ones. A lot of those changes have only happened because of the pressure being applied by fans. They should have resigned but self interest came first.


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Peevemor
06-01-2016, 12:03 PM
They are not selling their shares. They have created new ones.

OK, but they're effectively reducing their share of the club/level of ownership.


A lot of those changes have only happened because of the pressure being applied by fans.

Most of them are down to Leeann Dempster, who was appointed before we were relegated.


They should have resigned but self interest came first.

Can you expand on that?

Andy74
06-01-2016, 12:04 PM
They are not selling their shares. They have created new ones. A lot of those changes have only happened because of the pressure being applied by fans. They should have resigned but self interest came first.


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They are new shares but they have accepted dilution of their own holdings, so actually it is better for us than them selling and being paid for their holdings. This way the money goes to the club.

And you know that the changes were all in train before the fan protests etc, right?

HappyHanlon
06-01-2016, 12:17 PM
Feel for Mixu in all honesty.

As for Dundee Utd, a horrible club and about time they were taken down a notch.

And to think there's actually Hibs fans who also support them! Weirdos!

ancient hibee
06-01-2016, 12:24 PM
I've always hated the small artificially created leagues dating from the late 70s. I think it is one of the main reasons for the deterioration in the quality and profile of our football and was ruthlessly exploited by the old firm to entrench their hold over Scottish football. It did not help the other big city clubs to challenge when the 1st priority was to avoid relegation. There was little space to develop youth and give them game time. The old youth conveyor belts of Hibs and other clubs dried up and we started buying journeymen from England to match our rivals.It was tough for relegated clubs like Dundee, Falkirk, Dunfermilne with decent crowds to get back up. In a 16 or 18 club premiership we had around 200 to 230 Scottish players playing at the top level regularly. If a club blooded young players and did well the bigger clubs could get a good idea if they would make it with them. It gave the Scotland manager a huge pool of talent to choose from. Many good young players went to England creating more space for youngsters and giving the Scotland manager a massive pool of players to choose from. How many scots players are playing in the Scottish Premiership now regularly. Say 12 teams with 8 - 12 scots each. That is being generous to some clubs. The pool of talent is halved at least in a smaller league apart from all the knock on effects over a number of seasons. So instead of having a pool of scots over a 10'year period of some 2,000 to 3,000 we have around 1000-1200. Some 1000-2000 lost opportunities for our scots youth. No wonder Strachan wanted Hibs and the Huns up last season
it will be another massive self defeating exercise if we do not expand the league and instead get caught up in keeping the leagues small for no helpful,reason or because we want sevco or united to suffer.
its been well,argued before that playing each other twice will narrow the points gap with sevco and Celtic. I think that proportionately the old firm are likely to lose more points to other clubs if theynolymplay them twice a,season than four times.
i know that the purists don't want any splits in a 16 team league but I'd accept a Belgian/ Danish model to get the bigger league.Sure ICT, Ross County, Hamilton, St Johnstone have done very well with the resources they have but they are never going to attract big crowds. Let's go back to bigger leagues as, I think that will,also help these clubs to be long term members of the premiership.


As a matter of fact of course one of the main drivers of smaller league was a certain Tom Hart.He recognised that far bigger crowds would turn out for Hibs versus Rangers than Hibs versus Cowdenbeath.That is still the case.

NAE NOOKIE
06-01-2016, 05:57 PM
It is an interesting debate.

One of the posters said that all the clubs deserved to be relegated and that is spot on, but maybe we have to look at the bigger picture.


People moan on here about TV deals and sponsors and how Scottish football doesn't get good enough deals. No organisation deserves lucrative deals, no matter how many licence payers, subscribers etc Scotland provides.

I am sick of looking at empty stands, banners in empty stands, even a bus and garden shed too inside stadiums. Not really how we want to show off our league and it doesn't make it easy to sell the product. Most of the games are Saturday 3pm too remember.

Hearts v Celtic, Rangers v Hibernian and the Dundee Derby were all on TV recently and all sold out. A much better and easier way to sell the product.

The problem is, no team deserves a place in a league because of their size and no team deserves punted because they are smaller clubs.

Totally ...... This stuff drives me mental. At Ross County they have two sets of training goals sitting at the front of one of the stands in full view of the TV cameras, I know the seats they take up wont be occupied, but it just looks so bloody small time and amateurish.

On the telly a few weeks ago ( I cant remember the ground it was at ) a slice of old fashioned terracing was in shot of the cameras with weeds growing out of it. When you don't look after your stadium to the extent that you cant be bothered to take care of the bits that cost nothing, like pulling up a few weeds, what does that say about you?

As for relegation. I agree that being a 'big club' shouldn't make you exempt from the penalty for being pish on the park or mismanaged off it. But having said that nobody, but nobody, could have foreseen the perfect storm that has engulfed Scottish football over the last 4 years. We are a small country with only a handful of clubs which can be considered 'big' in the context of a league system with something like ( miraculously IMO ) 16 full time clubs.

Celtic, Sevco, Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee Utd. If Utd are relegated and Hibs or Sevco don't get promoted that will mean that in 3 seasons the SPFL will have been without 4 of its biggest 6 clubs in the top league ... in our and Sevco's case for at least 2 seasons. That's bad news for any country of our size hoping to maintain a full time professional league. We are not only missing our biggest clubs, but worse than that from the point of view of attendances, sponsors and TV we are missing our biggest games ... Hibs v Hearts, Celtic v Sevco and next year Dundee v Dundee Utd and the hugely attractive Dundee Utd v Aberdeen.

Hell, even the EPL with dozens of huge clubs compared to ours queuing up to join the party would be getting a squeaky bum if some of their biggest draws like Man Utd, Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool were playing in the Championship.

Fingers need to be got out in the Hampden corridors.

emerald green
06-01-2016, 06:49 PM
Except, of course, that Rangers were not relegated.

Rangers FC were of course liquidated, not relegated, and came back / were allowed back into the lowest division under a new name. Although many, including in the media, still refer to them as Rangers.

I couldn't give a monkeys about Dundee United being relegated TBH, or any other club for that matter except Hibs. I don't think they (DU) would have shed many tears when Hibs went down either.

Dundee United are not a big club. A club with home attendances not much over 5,000 at some matches isn't what I would class as a "big club". Manchester United are a big club, and they were relegated not all that long ago. Dundee United are very small time by comparison.

chippy
06-01-2016, 06:54 PM
As a matter of fact of course one of the main drivers of smaller league was a certain Tom Hart.He recognised that far bigger crowds would turn out for Hibs versus Rangers than Hibs versus Cowdenbeath.That is still the case.

Tom Hart was involved as part of the so called Big 6: old firm, Edinburgh clubs, Arabs and Dons. He certainly went along with it but not sure he was the main driver. He was wrong though for the points I made earlier. ET did advise him against it. He thought it daft. A league he described as having a top and bottom with no middle.

NORTHERNHIBBY
06-01-2016, 07:03 PM
You can win cups with luck, but your league position is the evidence of what you deserve from your performances over 9-10 months.

Michael
06-01-2016, 07:08 PM
Dundee United are not a big club. A club with home attendances not much over 5,000 at some matches isn't what I would class as a "big club". Manchester United are a big club, and they were relegated not all that long ago. Dundee United are very small time by comparison.

It's all relative. Only 5 teams in Scotland average a bigger attendance than Dundee United. In Scottish terms, Dundee United are a big club.

emerald green
06-01-2016, 07:18 PM
It's all relative. Only 5 teams in Scotland average a bigger attendance than Dundee United. In Scottish terms, Dundee United are a big club.

Sure, I understand that. However, my definition of what's a big club is based on the size of a particular club's fanbase whether it's in Scotland, England, Spain, Italy, Germany or wherever. Purely my definition FWIW.

Even in Scotland though I'm not so sure I would class DU as a "big club". In Scotland (in no particular order) I would only class Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic and The Rangers as "big clubs". Not everyone will agree I know.

Blaster
06-01-2016, 07:33 PM
Gordon strachan has said for years the primary focus for Scottish football has to be looking after our full time clubs. Yes still have a place for part time clubs but priority has to be full time clubs.

We have far too many clubs. We have a small pot of money and we are distributing some of it to clubs who only get a few hundred fans at best.

Ringothedog
06-01-2016, 08:20 PM
They are not selling their shares. They have created new ones. A lot of those changes have only happened because of the pressure being applied by fans. They should have resigned but self interest came first.


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How do you resign from being the owners ?

Del Boy
06-01-2016, 08:28 PM
Sure, I understand that. However, my definition of what's a big club is based on the size of a particular club's fanbase whether it's in Scotland, England, Spain, Italy, Germany or wherever. Purely my definition FWIW.

Even in Scotland though I'm not so sure I would class DU as a "big club". In Scotland (in no particular order) I would only class Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Celtic and The Rangers as "big clubs". Not everyone will agree I know.

If you base it purely on fan base then no doubt the 5 mentioned are the biggest but there's got to be more to it than that. United's European record albeit a while ago now is unbelievable! Also in terms of league position when did we last finish above them?

Bishop Hibee
06-01-2016, 08:34 PM
Clubs should be relegated/promoted on merit not on their average home gate.

Rangers weren't relegated, they went bust and a Newco had to apply for permission to enter the league structure.

Lucius Apuleius
06-01-2016, 09:14 PM
Hamilton relegated us over two legs.

You reckon that and what Partick have achieved is better than what hibs have achieved? I don't.

Bronson
06-01-2016, 09:24 PM
I can't believe people think Dundee Utd are too big a club to be relegated, they'd have been the 4th biggest club in the Championship last season.

I also don't understand people getting worried about what this shows about 'the state of scottish football'. This is exactly why the play offs were introduced, chill out.

heretoday
06-01-2016, 10:37 PM
Dundee are now no 1 in the city. Swings and roundabouts innit?

BH Hibs
06-01-2016, 11:44 PM
For all the talk of reconstruction and things needing to change if the Huns win the league this season I reckon you can forget it ever happening. It'll be back to 4 bigot bashes a season which is all the Blazers really care about. We must win it this year to have any chance of change imo

oldbutdim
07-01-2016, 12:03 AM
I used to quite like United until the Matty Jack incident. I was quite behind them when they were ripping up Europe, something I never managed when it was one of the Twisted Sisters.

When they signed Ratboy and gave him a 51 shirt I'm afraid I lost any goodwill towards them.

I was sad when Mixu took that job because I like Mixu.

cabbageandribs1875
07-01-2016, 01:04 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/35246285


To avoid relegation, Paatelainen's side must do what no team in the last decade has done.
During that period, the bottom team at this stage in the season has always gone down - and none have had greater deficits to make up than the 11 points the Tangerines must claw back.





No movement7
Dundee (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee)
21
-5
26


No movement8
Motherwell (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/motherwell)
20
-5
25


No movement9
Partick Thistle (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/partick-thistle)
20
-5
24


No movement10
Hamilton (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/hamilton-academical)
21
-9
23


No movement11
Kilmarnock (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/kilmarnock)
22
-17
21


No movement12
Dundee Utd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/teams/dundee-united)
21
-23
10


seldom look at the big boys league but it's looking rather ominous for the tangerines, so...who would we like as *potential play-off opponents :)



* IF we don't win our league but get through to play 2nd bottom of the big boys league, either of the bottom 3 will do imo

Greencore
07-01-2016, 01:07 AM
Had a soft spot for them because they used to have hibs in their name. Then I grew up, couldn't care about them.

AndyM_1875
07-01-2016, 09:09 AM
Maybe I'm just being a little sensitive but the weeping and wailing on Sportsound over Dundee United's miserable season has annoyed me. We've had a 2 night wake over United's near certain 2016 relegation. I seem to recall little sympathy or inquest the season we went down, in fact I detected a fair amount of sneering from Richard Gordon & co.

Teams are relegated because they are run badly or they play badly. In the end you get what you deserve.
As for them being a team I have admiration for, not really. The only teams I'll credit are St Johnstone or Inverness who have never run up ludicrous debts, cheated financially, run to budget etc and who deserve their recent successes but United can bolt as can the rest of the clubs.