Never fail to disapiont

[WoreTheGreen]

Embarassing celtic 'fans' at there usual behavior during minutes silence. Just wish them &billy boys would to some countrly who cares

[Alfred E Newman]

Embarassing celtic 'fans' at there usual behavior during minutes silence. Just wish them &billy boys would to some countrly who cares

Sadly it's no surprise if they have embarrassed themselves again.

[Pretty Boy]

Whilst the actions of the British army in Northern Ireland is worthy of debate (I assume this is why they are protesting) they would do well to remember almost 50000 Irish soldiers died in WWI (again a complex situation due to the 16 uprising) and the Irish Governement attend and lay a wreath at the Cenotaph every year. They would also do well to remember thousands of Celtic supporters have, and continue, to serve in the army.

I have had misgivings about the poppy appeal in recent years but a little respect for a couple of minutes once a year isn't too much to ask.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If they cant respect the silence they should ****off to Ireland. Though I bet they would be an embarrassment there too.

[.Sean.]

Sub-human, degenerate ****.

Pack your bags and **** off to Ireland you terrorist-sympathising gluebags :aok:

[Pete]

What has Ireland ever done to have these people shipped off there?

[Monts]

What did they do?

[Smartie]

Whilst the actions of the British army in Northern Ireland is worthy of debate (I assume this is why they are protesting) they would do well to remember almost 50000 Irish soldiers died in WWI (again a complex situation due to the 16 uprising) and the Irish Governement attend and lay a wreath at the Cenotaph every year. They would also do well to remember thousands of Celtic supporters have, and continue, to serve in the army.

I have had misgivings about the poppy appeal in recent years but a little respect for a couple of minutes once a year isn't too much to ask.

:agree: Sums it up for me.

How many Celtic fans will have been conscripted against their will to go, fight and ultimately lose their lives? Surely that alone makes it worth buttoning it for a minute or so?

As you say, there is a legitimate debate to be had about Ireland and British Imperialism in general. The minute silence on Armistice day is neither the time nor the place for any points to be made on that subject.

[Sylar]

What did they do?

Nothing that they don't do every single year around Remembrance Day. Booed the silence loudly, proudly and followed it up by singing the Irish National Anthem once the silence had finished.

I no longer find myself angry or shocked by their behaviour. It's predictably despicable.

[hibsbollah]

The BBC are describing it as 'a few voices' while most respected the hush. Was it really that bad?

[sambajustice]

Celtic are a practically a non entity in Ireland, which I find quite funny. It's all Man United and Liverpool. You the odd shop with celtic strips in it and the odd fan club but the two aforementioned dominate the shops and sports pages, after GAA and rugby of course.

[Sir David Gray]

Terrorist loving ****

Sevco may have earned the title and in many ways it's justified but on this particular subject, Celtic really are Scotland's shame.

These people are an absolute embarrassment to this country.

[erin go bragh]

Agree its a poor show but any Hearts fan taking the moral high ground when they bumped the poppy charity and because of they very cretins booing the mins silence for the dead pope at Hampden a few years ago ,we now have to have a mins applause .

[andyf5]

Complex issue - letter from player in England who does not wear poppy

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,

James McClean

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

It would be refreshing at least if some of them were making reasoned objections, but we should be clear that these sorts are expressing their culture and ethnicity in the same way as the creatures that contaminated ER last week. Most of them really don't know any better and are to be pitied more than anything else. In the absence of The Rangers just now, Celtc are the establishment rather than anti-establishment and a lot of them don't like that at all.

[CorrieHibs]

Best fans in the world though

[WoreTheGreen]

Agree its a poor show but any Hearts fan taking the moral high ground when they bumped the poppy charity and because of they very cretins booing the mins silence for the dead pope at Hampden a few years ago ,we now have to have a mins applause .believe me no has more contempt to that lot than anyone. Moral high ground? You havw to leave the gutter to see the sky

[marinello59]

Terrorist loving ****

Sevco may have earned the title and in many ways it's justified but on this particular subject, Celtic really are Scotland's shame.

These people are an absolute embarrassment to this country.

Terrorist loving ****? A bit OTT surely?
They are not an embarresment to this country, they are to their club though.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Complex issue - letter from player in England who does not wear poppy

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,

James McClean

P.S.

I will however manage to swallow my pride and take the filthy £40,000 a week paid out of the pockets of folk who live a few miles from the brave act of heroism committed in the name of the cause which killed 21 people and injured 182 others, who its well known were all off duty soldiers and proddy spies.

[Smartie]

Terrorist loving ****? A bit OTT surely?
They are not an embarresment to this country, they are to their club though.

I think they are an embarrassment to us all.

As are their friends from across the city when they get up to their tricks overseas (and rioting in Manchester and the likes).

We are fans of a Scottish football club, as are they. We are governed by the same limp authorities as they are. Football fans from other countries will group us together whether we like it or not.

They are a Scottish football club, formed in Scotland who play all of their home games in Scotland. When they behave like this they let Scotland down.

That is why we should condemn them in the strongest terms possible whenever they get up to this kind of nonsense.

[hibsbollah]

Complex issue - letter from player in England who does not wear poppy

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,

James McClean

McLean speaks very well on the subject, although theres a bit of a burn the witch mentality where hes concerned. The same kind of mentality that sends Neil Lennon bullets in the post.

[marinello59]

P.S.

I will however manage to swallow my pride and take the filthy £40,000 a week paid out of the pockets of folk who live a few miles from the brave act of heroism committed in the name of the cause which killed 21 people and injured 182 others, who its well known were all off duty soldiers and proddy spies.

I think that's a good statement from Maclean. Nobody should be forced to wear a poppy, that's what the freedom that was fought for is all about.

[WoreTheGreen]

Wish l had not started this thread hate OF and the wattered doon billy boys but love the hibs uncondiconaly

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I think that's a good statement from Maclean. Nobody should be forced to wear a poppy, that's what the freedom that was fought for is all about.

That's an absolutely fair point, but where Celtc are concerned, there were not many statements saying that it was Hearts fans democratic right to roundly boo the silence at the cup semifinal to pay respect to the recently deceased Pope. You can't have it both ways. Not unless you are not making a serious point, but just following the half wit behind and the half wit in front.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I think that's a good statement from Maclean. Nobody should be forced to wear a poppy, that's what the freedom that was fought for is all about.

I agree, but at a time where everybody in N Ireland ( mostly ) is striving for peace and reconciliation I would admire him more if he wore it and made public that it was his effort to back those efforts. At the Cenotaph this morning there were representatives of many countries with an axe to grind against the British every bit as big as N Ireland.

[JDT]

Are they wearing black armbands instead of poppies or are they unrelated?

[marinello59]

That's an absolutely fair point, but where Celtc are concerned, there were not many statements saying that it was Hearts fans democratic right to roundly boo the silence at the cup semifinal to pay respect to the recently deceased Pope. You can't have it both ways. Not unless you are not making a serious point, but just following the half wit behind and the half wit in front.

There's a difference between a passive act like not wearing a poppy and an act designed to offend.

[marinello59]

I agree, but at a time where everybody in N Ireland ( mostly ) is striving for peace and reconciliation I would admire him more if he wore it and made public that it was his effort to back those efforts. At the Cenotaph this morning there were representatives of many countries with an axe to grind against the British every bit as big as N Ireland.

He's a football player though, not a diplomat.

[Kavinho]

He's a football player though, not a diplomat.


Excellent point

[BH Hibs]

I believe their club issued a statement asking for a few moments reflection and detailing some stories of Celtic players who died in the war. Possibly the only club that had to do that but that's a different story. Also no time for the Sevconians who want to claim the poppy and the armed forces as some kind of loyalist badge with this and their armed forces days. It is about remembrance not the glorification of war. Lest we forget.

[SunshineOnLeith]

Whilst the actions of the British army in Northern Ireland is worthy of debate (I assume this is why they are protesting) they would do well to remember almost 50000 Irish soldiers died in WWI (again a complex situation due to the 16 uprising) and the Irish Governement attend and lay a wreath at the Cenotaph every year. They would also do well to remember thousands of Celtic supporters have, and continue, to serve in the army.

I have had misgivings about the poppy appeal in recent years but a little respect for a couple of minutes once a year isn't too much to ask.

The thing is, none of the Celtic fans who boo minute's silences etc know a damn thing about history. It's attention seeking wee idiots and to attribute any level of understanding to them is nonsense. They're exactly the same as Rangers fans singing their songs, just change the words and colours of the flags.

[Scouse Hibee]

Complex issue - letter from player in England who does not wear poppy

Dear Mr Whelan

I wanted to write to you before talking about this face to face and explain my reasons for not wearing a poppy on my shirt for the game at Bolton.

I have complete respect for those who fought and died in both World Wars - many I know were Irish-born. I have been told that your own Grandfather Paddy Whelan, from Tipperary, was one of those.

I mourn their deaths like every other decent person and if the Poppy was a symbol only for the lost souls of World War I and II I would wear one.

I want to make that 100% clear .You must understand this. But the Poppy is used to remember victims of other conflicts since 1945 and this is where the problem starts for me.

For people from the North of Ireland such as myself, and specifically those in Derry, scene of the 1972 Bloody Sunday massacre, the poppy has come to mean something very different. Please understand, Mr Whelan, that when you come from Creggan like myself or the Bogside, Brandywell or the majority of places in Derry, every person still lives in the shadow of one of the darkest days in Ireland’s history – even if like me you were born nearly 20 years after the event. It is just a part of who we are, ingrained into us from birth.

Mr Whelan, for me to wear a poppy would be as much a gesture of disrespect for the innocent people who lost their lives in the Troubles – and Bloody Sunday especially - as I have in the past been accused of disrespecting the victims of WWI and WWII.

It would be seen as an act of disrespect to those people; to my people.

I am not a war monger, or anti-British, or a terrorist or any of the accusations levelled at me in the past. I am a peaceful guy, I believe everyone should live side by side, whatever their religious or political beliefs which I respect and ask for people to respect mine in return. Since last year, I am a father and I want my daughter to grow up in a peaceful world, like any parent.

I am very proud of where I come from and I just cannot do something that I believe is wrong. In life, if you’re a man you should stand up for what you believe in.

I know you may not agree with my feelings but I hope very much that you understand my reasons.

As the owner of the club I am proud to play for, I believe I owe both you and the club’s supporters this explanation.

Yours sincerely,

James McClean


If the guy has an opinion and reasons that he wishes to share to explain his actions then that's fair enough in my book.

[Sir David Gray]

Terrorist loving ****? A bit OTT surely?
They are not an embarresment to this country, they are to their club though.

I thought that description was quite restrained, personally.

These people are the sort of people that support the PIRA. They're no different to those who protest in support of ISIS.

As for not being an embarrassment to the country, of course they are. Celtic are currently representing this country on the European stage and their fans are the fans that other football fans from across the continent will be most familiar with when it comes to Scottish football.

That game was being broadcast live across the whole of the UK and no doubt in many other countries as well and for me they tarnish Scotland's reputation every single year with the behaviour of a sizeable number of their fans during the Remembrance Day commemorations.

[Sir David Gray]

P.S.

I will however manage to swallow my pride and take the filthy £40,000 a week paid out of the pockets of folk who live a few miles from the brave act of heroism committed in the name of the cause which killed 21 people and injured 182 others, who its well known were all off duty soldiers and proddy spies.

Yep.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

There's a difference between a passive act like not wearing a poppy and an act designed to offend.

But isn't the difference people's opinions on the matter?

[Pete]

They're no different to those who protest in support of ISIS.


If you consider the two causes, their methods and their parameters then you'll see there's a world of difference.

Lazy.

[pontius pilate]

If you consider the two causes, their methods and their parameters then you'll see there's a world of difference.

Lazy.

In all honestly I don't think there is much of a difference between what they ultimately wanted/want.
On the subject of McLean why not wear a white poppy

[Canon Hannan]

In all honestly I don't think there is much of a difference between what they ultimately wanted/want.
On the subject of McLean why not wear a white poppy

Because it is a democracy? Well meant to be.

[Pretty Boy]

In all honestly I don't think there is much of a difference between what they ultimately wanted/want.
On the subject of McLean why not wear a white poppy

There's the proverbial world of difference between what were the aims of the IRA and IS.

[Dashing Bob S]

Don't wear a poppy myself, but don't object to anybody else wearing one, or not, or a white one. What's the problem? Do what you like, but do it quietly and don't bore everybody else to tears about the choices you make. It's pretty simple really.

[Vini1875]

I believe their club issued a statement asking for a few moments reflection and detailing some stories of Celtic players who died in the war. Possibly the only club that had to do that but that's a different story. Also no time for the Sevconians who want to claim the poppy and the armed forces as some kind of loyalist badge with this and their armed forces days. It is about remembrance not the glorification of war. Lest we forget.

Except in recent years it has become about the glorification of war. I don't boo the silence or piper, but I am very uncomfortable with what this poppy/remembrance has become. This is no longer about remembering those who died in the world wars.

[pontius pilate]

There's the proverbial world of difference between what were the aims of the IRA and IS.

Is there IS want a caliphate and the original Ira wanted a united Ireland both in essence wanted/wants there on state.
I'll make it clear I never agreed with the way the Ira went about things and IS are nothing but ****

[pontius pilate]

Because it is a democracy? Well meant to be.

It is a democracy but reading that statement and hearing what the young man has had to say he is looking at it through tinted specs instead of looking at the much larger picture and what the republican organisations carried out in the name of freedom

[Billie Jo]

They're no different to those who protest in support of ISIS


are you serious ???


God almighty

[pontius pilate]

Except in recent years it has become about the glorification of war. I don't boo the silence or piper, but I am very uncomfortable with what this poppy/remembrance has become. This is no longer about remembering those who died in the world wars.

I don't think it has become a symbol of glorifying war I wear my poppy with pride and think of those who paid the ultimate sacrifice during the Great War and the 2nd world war. Those that I knew personally and were lost in conflict of which there are a few I remember daily and don't need a poppy for that. The funds poppy Scotland raise bring invaluable assistance to those that nead it

[Smartie]

It doesn't really matter what the cause is - nationalism, imperialism, caliphate or whatever.

Terrorism is wrong and can never be justified.

That is a line that both ISIS and the IRA crossed and for that reason they deserve equal and total condemnation.

[Pretty Boy]

Is there IS want a caliphate and the original Ira wanted a united Ireland both in essence wanted/wants there on state.
I'll make it clear I never agreed with the way the Ira went about things and IS are nothing but ****

Surely the creation of a socialist democratic republic is far removed from a state governed by religious law?

Historically it could be argued the Irish claims on the whole of Ireland are every bit as legitimate as those of the British state, again I'm not sure if IS claims for land in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon et al are likewise.

[emerald green]

Except in recent years it has become about the glorification of war. I don't boo the silence or piper, but I am very uncomfortable with what this poppy/remembrance has become. This is no longer about remembering those who died in the world wars.

Can you provide examples of the "glorification of war" which you refer to? By whom and when, and for what reason or purpose? I don't know if you've ever been in a war situation, but I've never heard someone who has ever glorifying war. Never. In fact, the very opposite.

The bit in bold. It is for me, and many thousands if not millions of people in this country and throughout the world.

[Canon Hannan]

It is a democracy but reading that statement and hearing what the young man has had to say he is looking at it through tinted specs instead of looking at the much larger picture and what the republican organisations carried out in the name of freedom

Royal Family (Nazi supporters in the 1930's) placing a wreath is more concerning to be honest.

Wish we could keep this all away from the beautiful game. Peace.

[pontius pilate]

Surely the creation of a socialist democratic republic is far removed from a state governed by religious law?

Historically it could be argued the Irish claims on the whole of Ireland are every bit as legitimate as those of the British state, again I'm not sure if IS claims for land in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon et al are likewise.

Pretty boy I agree even tho I made the original statement that I don't see much difference between the two. For me it was more how they both went about getting what they wanted and that is/was through terrorism. The weaponry and tactics used may have changed slightly and social
Media has played a massive part on what we can access compared to what the early 70's brought

[NAE NOOKIE]

Except in recent years it has become about the glorification of war. I don't boo the silence or piper, but I am very uncomfortable with what this poppy/remembrance has become. This is no longer about remembering those who died in the world wars.

I've seen this said elsewhere, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence that there is any truth in it whatsoever. It seems to me there is a handful of people out there who are trying to create the perception that what you say here is the case .... it simply isn't true and whatever their reasons for doing so I find it incredibly disrespectful.

[Sir David Gray]

They're no different to those who protest in support of ISIS


are you serious ???


God almighty

Yep deadly serious.

I can't think on why anyone would say there was any difference.

Both are terrorist organisations and both have targeted innocent civilians as part of their so called "cause" against the British state.

[theonlywayisup]

I've never had any respect of Celtic fans ever since that day when they threw a CS gas canister into the East. As the Hibs fans rushed onto the pitch to escape the gas, the Celtic "self proclaimed world's best fans" started singing "we're Celtic supporters" only to wind up those unlucky to witness the shocking events that had just occurred.

Hate them ever since that day!

[BH Hibs]

Except in recent years it has become about the glorification of war. I don't boo the silence or piper, but I am very uncomfortable with what this poppy/remembrance has become. This is no longer about remembering those who died in the world wars.

Fair enough maybe I should have put it SHOULD be about remembrance.

[Future17]

No doubt in my mind the booing of the silence only reflects the opinion of a minority of Celtc fans. I also doubt their opinion is reflective of the majority of Irish people, so not sure why we should inflict the ignorance of these idiots upon them.


P.S.

I will however manage to swallow my pride and take the filthy £40,000 a week paid out of the pockets of folk who live a few miles from the brave act of heroism committed in the name of the cause which killed 21 people and injured 182 others, who its well known were all off duty soldiers and proddy spies.

What a load of nonsense. Are you suggesting Maclean is a terrorist sympathiser?

[green&left]

Its becoming a farce, like most things its very americanised nonsense these days. The Arsenal game was cringey as hell, marching soldiers with a poppy wreath, some poem and a trumpet.

Leicester City had a full stand poppy mosaic display (Money that surely would've been better going towards poppy appeal)

Huns had a full stand poppy display (again money that poppy scotland probably could do with) not to mention a bloody artillery cannon with current serving soldiers displaying it.

James McLean getting it tight again for exercising his democratic right to choose to not wear a poppy.

Jeremy Corbyn getting tight in ring wing press for not bowing lowly enough.

Barbara Windsor in the press last week saying anyone who doesn't wear a poppy can "sod off".

Its like a pantomime these days. Used for marketing, likes & retweets and some oneupmanship.

[Iggy Pope]

Excellent point

It is indeed an excellent point, succinctly made and will be roundly ignored by the Give Us Back Our Britain fraternity on here, those neatly side stepping the behaviour boundaries with their name calling. Why anyone should be hounded into this very modern fashion of wearing a poppy or observing a minute silence flies in the face of the democracy so cherished by these hypocrites. And James McLean is a lot closer to the problem than the ignoramus spouting garbage about ISIS. I'll stand corrected on that if he or she has had someone close to them murdered under the guise of 'war'.

Earl Haig - a mindless psychopath with a family that retained only guilt and chose a flower the same colour as the blood on their hands. I won't buy one. I'll never buy one.

[Iggy Pope]

It doesn't really matter what the cause is - nationalism, imperialism, caliphate or whatever.

Terrorism is wrong and can never be justified.

That is a line that both ISIS and the IRA crossed and for that reason they deserve equal and total condemnation.

One which the British Army have crossed. In memoriam.

[Hibbyradge]

Don't wear a poppy myself, but don't object to anybody else wearing one, or not, or a white one. What's the problem? Do what you like, but do it quietly and don't bore everybody else to tears about the choices you make. It's pretty simple really.

I agree with your sentiments, but for some people, it's not that simple.

Public figures are subject to criticism and often abuse, when they don't conform so they sometimes need to defend themselve publicly or at least explain their reasons.

[Lucius Apuleius]

I choose to wear a poppy on my jacket, others do not. Their choice and I feel no bitterness towards them at all. What I do dislike, with a passion, is people being expected to wear one on their shirts when they are on telly. My opinion is they were not made to be worn on shirts or dresses.

[Iggy Pope]

I don't think it has become a symbol of glorifying war I wear my poppy with pride and think of those who paid the ultimate sacrifice during the Great War and the 2nd world war. Those that I knew personally and were lost in conflict of which there are a few I remember daily and don't need a poppy for that. The funds poppy Scotland raise bring invaluable assistance to those that nead it

I agree with the sentiment, I really do.
However. You are 41. You can't have known anyone personally that fell in either war you mention. You might know a few that fell in wars since though? Maybe the civil one that we had on our shores more recently? 2000 dead in that one and rising.

[pontius pilate]

That's the bit in bold that you have already highlighted those that fell in conflict and not war. Recent times have been a conflict ie. Iraq Afghanistan and to a certain extent NI

[Iggy Pope]

That's the bit in bold that you have already highlighted those that fell in conflict and not war. Recent times have been a conflict ie. Iraq Afghanistan and to a certain extent NI

Ah. Just a conflict then not a war. Who makes those rules? Who creates the definition? Sounds like nonsense to me. And terror, guns, bombing and death sounds like war.

[Scott Allan Key]

Surely the creation of a socialist democratic republic is far removed from a state governed by religious law?

Historically it could be argued the Irish claims on the whole of Ireland are every bit as legitimate as those of the British state, again I'm not sure if IS claims for land in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon et al are likewise.

ISIS are made up of ex-Iraqi secret service and military (many non-practising Sunni, secular and some possibly Christian or other faiths) running the gang with zealous cannon-fodder being the willing fools doing the dirty work. The 'religious' aspect enabling fanaticism and the inevitable hypocrisy that goes along with 'infidel' massacring is from the Wahabi interpretation which is considered out of the frame by the majority of Muslim scholars of traditional Islam incorporating both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims. Those in MSM purporting to speak for Islam tend to be Wahabi trolls.

I would posit that their isn't much difference for someone being nailed to the ground for challenging a gun-toting authority empowered by criminal activity whether it is/was in Raqqa or Belfast. Someone being able to apply mercy and compassion reflects either humane or divine qualities. There is no chance of that with mob rule and the taboos they divise to instil their power. In my view, neither IRA/UDA/ISIS reflect the teachings of their mutual and respective Prophets and as such cannot be considered religious.

I don't agree with Celtic fans' actions, many of my Irish relatives were involved in WWI and the poppy commemorations stem from the fields where many died unjustly and cruelly because of the dreadful politicking of arch-villains and dunderheids who ultimately benefitted in the short term from their decisions. And that is why those serving in their best capacity deserve commemoration despite those who profit.

[Smartie]

One which the British Army have crossed. In memoriam.

I agree.

And that's not right either.

[Future17]

That's the bit in bold that you have already highlighted those that fell in conflict and not war. Recent times have been a conflict ie. Iraq Afghanistan and to a certain extent NI

I thought we were fighting in Afghanistan as part of a "war on terror"? I think the British forces' involvement in Iraq under Tony Blair is pretty universally known as the Second Iraq War.

I think the people who have had loved ones killed and their houses, schools and hospitals destroyed might struggle to understand the difference between a conflict and a war.

[jacomo]

In all honestly I don't think there is much of a difference between what they ultimately wanted/want.
On the subject of McLean why not wear a white poppy

I respect McLean's desire not to wear a poppy, but in this instance he is clearly only doing so as a representative of his employer. A very well paid representative, but that's by the by I suppose.

I think he could get over himself, but I suppose he finds it impossible to reconcile with his background and upbringing.

[Bostonhibby]

They're the best fans in their wee world but are actually a backward looking shower and no one outside themselves thinks they amount to much at all.

Just occasionally, like remembrance day for example they get a bit of exposure then they get back to normal amounting to next to nothing in the football world outside Glasgow.

[Hibrandenburg]

As an ex soldier I wear a poppy. I wear it as a symbol of respect to those soldiers who died in all conflicts and also take time to think about those who died on all sides of those conflicts. For me the symbolism of the poppy lies in the hope that one day war will be a thing of the past

In recent years remembrance day has been hijacked by all sides of the political spectrum to try and score petty points against their opponents, it's simple symbolism has been perverted and instead of being a symbol of peaceful reflection it is now for some a badge of honour, a show of nationalism and a symbol of triumphalism. Paradoxically it's become that what it was intended to admonish.

[IberianHibernian]

When and why did Remembrance Day and poppies start being included in Scottish football ? This century I suppose . Are minutes of silence held in cinemas , theatres , other sporting occasions , other workplaces etc ? Can someone confirm who is being remembered at these ceremonies since there seems to be a lot of confusion about this ? Is it to remember people who died serving in the British armed forces in the First and / or Second World Wars or people who served in the British forces in either / both of those wars plus others who served in wars / conflicts such as Afghanistan , Irak , Ireland , etc or victims of all wars / conflicts including Argentinians , people from Afghanistan , Germans , Irish etc etc ?

[IberianHibernian]

As an ex soldier I wear a poppy. I wear it as a symbol of respect to those soldiers who died in all conflicts and also take time to think about those who died on all sides of those conflicts. For me the symbolism of the poppy lies in the hope that one day war will be a thing of the past

In recent years remembrance day has been hijacked by all sides of the political spectrum to try and score petty points against their opponents, it's simple symbolism has been perverted and instead of being a symbol of peaceful reflection it is now for some a badge of honour, a show of nationalism and a symbol of triumphalism. Paradoxically it's become that what it was intended to admonish.I started writing my first comment before yours appeared and am glad to read your comment as it is especially relevant as someone who is an ex - serviceman of whichever country you served for ( UK probably ? ) and you have partly answered my questions .

[Johnny Clash]

As an ex soldier I wear a poppy. I wear it as a symbol of respect to those soldiers who died in all conflicts and also take time to think about those who died on all sides of those conflicts. For me the symbolism of the poppy lies in the hope that one day war will be a thing of the past

In recent years remembrance day has been hijacked by all sides of the political spectrum to try and score petty points against their opponents, it's simple symbolism has been perverted and instead of being a symbol of peaceful reflection it is now for some a badge of honour, a show of nationalism and a symbol of triumphalism. Paradoxically it's become that what it was intended to admonish.


The BBC news tonight underlined the points made in the above excellent post. Pathetic attempts to score points against Jeremy Corbyn - first they mentioned his suit, then his red poppy . Then they had to criticise his bow after laying a wreath and to cap it all apparently he wasn't enthusiastic enough singing that awful national anthem.

I respect any football player who has the courage to stand up for his principles. I thought James McClean explained his position very well. I find it sad the lack of tolerance from people who are supposedly proud to wear a poppy because of their love of 'freedom' but I was glad to read posts on this thread that do show understanding and tolerance. That's Hibs class.

What stinks though is the rank hypocrisy from those supporters of sevco and the poppy stealers who seem quite at ease ignoring sections of their own support giving it the nazi salute at games! There's no point filling your stand with a poppy display then next week Sieg Heiling it!

[cocopops1875]

P.S.

I will however manage to swallow my pride and take the filthy £40,000 a week paid out of the pockets of folk who live a few miles from the brave act of heroism committed in the name of the cause which killed 21 people and injured 182 others, who its well known were all off duty soldiers and proddy spies.

Seen this "argument" 100s of times and it's utter nonsense, it suggests that everyone who works agrees ethically with both their employers politics/ethics and also the the government of the country in which they as individuals carry out their job? Can you think of a job in which this on mass may well not be the case ? It's Ironic eh

[Hibbyradge]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34720464

[cocopops1875]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34720464

There are a couple of issues I totally agree with there Radge and it's a very good read, the news reader in particular caught my eye given the ban on other symbols (I'm sure police are similar in that). The other thing is my feeling that charity shouldn't be looking after ex servicemen. I'm not pro or anti poppy by the way it's much like a vote in my opinion, it should be a personal choice and it shouldn't have to be justified or defended

[steakbake]

Strange thing is, I was going to post a thread two or three weeks ago, just to get the annual "best fans in the world in Remembrance Sunday shame" high horse thing out the way. In many ways, the posts so far pretty much write themselves. Some interesting points but also interesting are some of the comments on the Irish angle.

[Sylar]

When and why did Remembrance Day and poppies start being included in Scottish football ? This century I suppose . Are minutes of silence held in cinemas , theatres , other sporting occasions , other workplaces etc ? Can someone confirm who is being remembered at these ceremonies since there seems to be a lot of confusion about this ? Is it to remember people who died serving in the British armed forces in the First and / or Second World Wars or people who served in the British forces in either / both of those wars plus others who served in wars / conflicts such as Afghanistan , Irak , Ireland , etc or victims of all wars / conflicts including Argentinians , people from Afghanistan , Germans , Irish etc etc ?

Every University I've ever worked for/studied at have paused to observe a minute of silence. During that silence, people will think of those who've fallen from their family, town, country, school, workplace etc etc. That's the thing about Remembrance Day and a moment of reflection - there's no politicisation to that act and it's completely separate from the poppy argument and its symbolism.

I understand why those who have been on the 'receiving end' of the British military might not subscribe to the poppy and its symbolism. I have friends from Germany, particularly Dresden, who feel very uncomfortable by the aggressive nature of the poppy appeal. She'll pause and think about extended family members and friends who died or lost someone during the night her city was firebombed. I also have friends who grew up in Derry into Catholic families and in speaking to them, I can understand why the likes of James McLean elects to not wear a poppy.

To compare the actions of a small number of Celtc fans yesterday (and God knows, I hate them collectively more than any other club's supporters) to supporters of ISIS is utterly laughable and devoid of perspective. I've zero sympathy with the IRA and think they deserve hell for the innocent lives they've claimed in their 'struggle' (something that's particularly poignant here in Guildford) but whilst the IRA fought for a cause to free themselves from perceived British oppression, ISIS are an organisation that advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing. The IRA (and other organisations like them, such as EPA) fight for perceived liberty - it's easy to call them terrorists from this side of the divide but the issue isn't black and white.

[Future17]

I respect McLean's desire not to wear a poppy, but in this instance he is clearly only doing so as a representative of his employer.

I think the Nuremberg trials put an end to the use of that excuse.

[emerald green]

On the subject of wearing the poppy, a spokesperson for the Royal British Legion said today...

"the poppy honours all those who have sacrificed their lives to protect the freedoms we enjoy today, and so the decision to wear it must be a matter of personal choice. If the poppy became compulsory it would lose its meaning and significance.

We are thankful for every poppy worn, but we never insist on it, to do so would be contrary to the spirit of Remembrance and all that the poppy stands for."

[steakbake]

On the subject of wearing the poppy, a spokesperson for the Royal British Legion said today...

"the poppy honours all those who have sacrificed their lives to protect the freedoms we enjoy today, and so the decision to wear it must be a matter of personal choice. If the poppy became compulsory it would lose its meaning and significance.

We are thankful for every poppy worn, but we never insist on it, to do so would be contrary to the spirit of Remembrance and all that the poppy stands for."

Someone should tell the BBC, who plant one on anyone who walks past a camera for the two weeks or so running up to the event. It comes across as grating piety.

Also worth keeping in mind when folk moan about those of us who choose not to wear one.

[emerald green]

Someone should tell the BBC, who plant one on anyone who walks past a camera for the two weeks or so running up to the event. It comes across as grating piety.

Also worth keeping in mind when folk moan about those of us who choose not to wear one.

Why do you single out the BBC? I see the poppy worn by lots of people appearing on other major TV channels - ITV, STV, Channel 4, Sky.

It's your choice not to wear a poppy and honour our country's war dead. I agree, people should not "moan" about people like you who choose not to wear the poppy, and you in turn should not "moan" about those who do. See the first sentence of your post.

That's one of the things many of our war dead made the ultimate sacrifice for. Freedom of choice, speech and expression.

[steakbake]

I just find it somehow completely loses meaning if an institution's policy is to ensue that everyone appearing on it has a poppy on them - if indeed it is the symbol of freedom that it's recently been said it is.

John Snow wrote a very interesting article on it a few years ago, probably around the time when remembrance started to get hijacked for political purposes. He does not wear one on C4.

My basic problem with it, is that every year we have the spectacle of politicians laying wreaths and looking all poe faced (this year, bowing enough and looking like your into singing GSTQ are new requirements) while being the same politicians who invariably send young people to die on the latest foreign policy adventure or sign the latest arms deal... it seems to me that we've learned nothing yet every year we still wear them and resolve that it'll never happen again.

[emerald green]

I just find it somehow completely loses meaning if an institution's policy is to ensue that everyone appearing on it has a poppy on them - if indeed it is the symbol of freedom that it's recently been said it is.

If you are still referring to the BBC, my understanding of the BBC's current editorial guidelines on wearing poppies is that poppies may be worn on screen for those BBC presenters, reporters and pundits who choose to do so.

Guests make their own decisions about whether and when to wear a poppy. The fact that so many choose to do so speaks volumes IMHO. There's nobody forcing anyone.

Who said it's a symbol of freedom recently? That's not quite right. The red poppy is a universal symbol of remembrance and hope, including hope for a positive future and peaceful world.

[easty]

If you are still referring to the BBC, my understanding of the BBC's current editorial guidelines on wearing poppies is that poppies may be worn on screen for those BBC presenters, reporters and pundits who choose to do so.

Guests make their own decisions about whether and when to wear a poppy. The fact that so many choose to do so speaks volumes IMHO. There's nobody forcing anyone.

Who said it's a symbol of freedom recently? That's not quite right. The red poppy is a universal symbol of remembrance and hope, including hope for a positive future and peaceful world.

Given the flack that can go along with not wearing a poppy, I'm not at all surprised by the number of guests wearing them.

[NAE NOOKIE]

There are a couple of issues I totally agree with there Radge and it's a very good read, the news reader in particular caught my eye given the ban on other symbols (I'm sure police are similar in that). The other thing is my feeling that charity shouldn't be looking after ex servicemen. I'm not pro or anti poppy by the way it's much like a vote in my opinion, it should be a personal choice and it shouldn't have to be justified or defended

Whatever folks take is on the Poppy debate I cant see how anybody can argue with that.

In my view if someone signs up they know the dangers, they know they could get killed or badly injured and if that happens its their bad luck.

But as far as I'm concerned if a soldier comes home with physical injuries or mental health issues then no expense should be spared to help them, from specialised housing to a good pension to the very best of medical treatment ... if the best is abroad then that's where they should be sent. That should be our side of the bargain.

If folk want to set up charities to provide 'extra' help all the better. But the fact that these charities exist because what our governments provide is inadequate is a national scandal.