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View Full Version : Biggest single factors that determined Hibs' fortunes over the years?



TheFamous1875
28-10-2015, 04:10 PM
Was reading another thread when someone referenced our players being talked up and talked into moves away from the club in the press and how it's been going on for decades and it made me wonder which Hibs players or managers, chairmen or anything else were thought to be the most significant factor in terms of our fortunes at that time, be that someone arriving at the club, someone leaving the club, or some incident, injury or stipulation occurring (referees may play a part!)


For example, IIRC, Mixu's arrival when we were in the first division really galvanised our squad and set them on the road to running away with the league that year, and another example of our fortunes going the other way would be the arrival of Terry Butcher.


People say that the two main factors for Hibs not winning the league in '73 were the loss of John Brownlie's due to his leg break and Mickey Edwards' due to his lengthy suspension.


Another argument up for contention is Craig Thompson costing us the Scottish Cup after erroneously giving Hearts a penalty in the 5-1 pummelling.


So, what single factors can you think of that led to Hibs' immediate fortunes of that time? Hopefully this rears some meaty discussion!

Tom Hart RIP
28-10-2015, 04:57 PM
Buying Joe Harper. As a teenager I thought it was great that Hibs were outspending Rangers and Celtic but I should have listened to older wiser fans who knew it would lead to the break up of a great team.

Lago
28-10-2015, 05:05 PM
The 1979 cup final v Rangers. A stone wall penalty not given to hibs who then went onto lose through a Arthur Duncan own goal.
Travesty.

patlowe
28-10-2015, 05:13 PM
Jordon Forster's wrongly disallowed header against Hearts at Tynecastle in the 'relegation derby'.

Latapy's misdemeanours in the weeks preceding the 2001 cup final.

Pete
28-10-2015, 05:14 PM
Jordon Forster's wrongly disallowed header against Hearts at Tynecastle in the 'relegation derby'.

Just about to say that. :agree:

HUTCHYHIBBY
28-10-2015, 05:25 PM
East Mains and The East Stand re-build. tin hat on! :-)

McIntosh
28-10-2015, 05:31 PM
Not spending wisely or spending enough at the right time

lord bunberry
28-10-2015, 05:33 PM
Selling GOC when we knew Riordan was suspended for our semi final with them.

Golden Bear
28-10-2015, 05:47 PM
I was privileged enough to see the magnificent Turnbull's Tornadoes and if it had been any other era they would surely have been destined to lift many more trophies than they actually achieved. Entertainment was the name of the game and fans became accustomed to speculating on the margin of the victories rather than wondering if they would actually win. Wonderful times!! We've had other highlights of course but never managed to achieve the dizzy heights of the early seventies.

With the exception of Tony Mowbray (he was a breath of fresh air) a succession of poor Managerial appointments and disastrous signing policies have been huge factors culminating in the latest disastrous relegation. We've now had so many years of decline that I really worry where our future fanbase will come from as young kids are unlikely to be attracted to a team which has singularly failed to impress for so many years now. Granted there appears to be shoots of recovery but whether that can be sustained and the crowds start coming back remains to be seen.

The lack of success of our scouting network and the inability of young players to bridge the gap between the Development teams and the first team squad are other factors, as was the scrapping of the Reserve League.(like other teams I suppose)

scoopyboy
28-10-2015, 06:55 PM
Jock Stein leaving us to go to Celtic possibly costing us league and / or cup.

Game against East Fife after the 7-0, John Brownlie broken leg and Alex Edwards sent off.

Being denied a stonewall pen in the 79 cup final at 0-0 with about 5 minutes to go.

Losing late goal against Hamilton in play offs although I thought a turning point was a few games earlier when we fought back from 2-0 down at home to Motherwell to go 3-2 in front. If we hadn't lost an injury time equaliser I'm sure we would have stayed up without being in the play offs.

PISTOL1875
28-10-2015, 07:20 PM
Forster's offside goal against Hertz..

RP allowing Calderwood to piss about over the summer which left us all in limbo as to whether or not he was going to stay..

Losing the late goal against Hamilton...

:fuming::fuming::fuming:

HibbyAndy
28-10-2015, 07:26 PM
Forster's offside goal against Hertz..

RP allowing Calderwood to piss about over the summer which left us all in limbo as to whether or not he was going to stay..

Losing the late goal against Hamilton...

:fuming::fuming::fuming:


And knocking back compo for him when we all kent he was utter pish.

Sparky's free kick at hame that was 10 feet over the line

Cropley10
28-10-2015, 07:42 PM
I think Colin Calderwood was a real, real low point. Clueless, disinterested and dismissive, not so much out of his depth as a liability.

Refereeing decisions in Derbies - is there another club in world football that have had the same number of retrospective red cards, that only benefit the next team they play?

Craig Thomson - the ref - often like playing against 12 men.

NORTHERNHIBBY
28-10-2015, 08:58 PM
Continually choosing the wrong man at the wrong time.

Onion
28-10-2015, 09:06 PM
Not a person, but the club culture has been the single most influential factor in the clubs non/success. Various managers since Turnbull have tried to change this but only Mowbray, Macleish and Miller (to some extent) have achieved that. All clubs sell their best players, but since the mid 70's for relative underperformance Hibs are top of the league.

Pretty Boy
28-10-2015, 09:07 PM
Continually choosing the wrong man at the wrong time.

In a nutshell.

Thankfully we now have, imo, the right man and woman running the show.

blackpoolhibs
28-10-2015, 09:47 PM
Recent history, the day Rod Petrie walked through the door.

Alfred E Newman
28-10-2015, 09:52 PM
Recent history, the day Rod Petrie walked through the door.

:yawn:

Diclonius
28-10-2015, 09:54 PM
Replacing Leigh Griffiths with Rowan Vine.

Chip shop Joe
28-10-2015, 10:03 PM
Not spending 150k on Griffiths[emoji1]

Viva_Palmeiras
28-10-2015, 10:48 PM
The football gods and poor decisions conspiring to cause a run of form to detach the team from sections of the support.

Criswell
28-10-2015, 10:59 PM
Selling off the "Golden Generation" for millions and not re-investing a penny into the playing squad. Total lack of any ambition by those "running" the club!

danhibees1875
28-10-2015, 11:09 PM
Not holding on to our 1-0 lead v old rangers when stokes scored after 13 seconds after some zemmama magic. Around 2009, we ended up losing 4-1 and it's all been a relentless downward spiral since.

heretoday
28-10-2015, 11:20 PM
Jock Stein's premature departure was a blow. Hibs had a really good side at that time and would have improved. It could have been us in the European Cup Final.

I'd say all the Hampden finals defeats we've had have taken their toll as well. They sapped the confidence.

ancient hibee
29-10-2015, 05:59 PM
I was privileged enough to see the magnificent Turnbull's Tornadoes and if it had been any other era they would surely have been destined to lift many more trophies than they actually achieved. Entertainment was the name of the game and fans became accustomed to speculating on the margin of the victories rather than wondering if they would actually win. Wonderful times!! We've had other highlights of course but never managed to achieve the dizzy heights of the early seventies.

With the exception of Tony Mowbray (he was a breath of fresh air) a succession of poor Managerial appointments and disastrous signing policies have been huge factors culminating in the latest disastrous relegation. We've now had so many years of decline that I really worry where our future fanbase will come from as young kids are unlikely to be attracted to a team which has singularly failed to impress for so many years now. Granted there appears to be shoots of recovery but whether that can be sustained and the crowds start coming back remains to be seen.

The lack of success of our scouting network and the inability of young players to bridge the gap between the Development teams and the first team squad are other factors, as was the scrapping of the Reserve League.(like other teams I suppose)

Agree re Turnbull's team to a certain extent certainly they would have won something in the decades since but no guarantee they would have been winners in an earlier period.Had they been a bit harder mentally they could have been winners at the time but they lost too many games that they should have won -Celtic,Leeds Liverpool -quite a big listThe single worst thing was definitely the 1979 Cup Final penalty-it was simply cheating by the referee.

Smartie
29-10-2015, 06:14 PM
Gordon Hunter picking up a scandalous red card at Ibrox in February 1994.

We had been riding high in the league and we were still in the Scottish Cup. The red card ended the game at Ibrox as a contest and handed Rangers a massive advantage in the title race.

Worse than that we had to go into the game against Hearts without Hunter. That Hibs team was superb and had strength in depth in all positions but whenever Hunter was missing the defence seemed to go to pot.

I don't want to go into too much detail but let's just say that if it wasn't for that red card then I am convinced we wouldn't have had to endure Wayne Foster doing quite so many half-time draws during derbies at Tynecastle over the years.

It was still (relatively speaking) a good season, finishing ahead of Celtic and behind excellent Rangers and Motherwell sides.

But who knows how it might have finished if it wasn't for McCluskey's poor decision that day at Ibrox?

3pm
29-10-2015, 06:21 PM
Latapy on the lash and Sauzee getting injured before SCF in 2001.

Good Celtic team mind you.

Clarence
29-10-2015, 06:31 PM
Not holding on to our 1-0 lead v old rangers when stokes scored after 13 seconds after some zemmama magic. Around 2009, we ended up losing 4-1 and it's all been a relentless downward spiral since.

I remember a scandalous elbow from Kris Boyd on Zemmama which went unpunished in that game.

Islington Hibs
29-10-2015, 06:54 PM
Great question and some really interesting responses.

In the history of Scottish football there have been a number of great sides. Some have come and gone like Queens Park who sadly and honourably did not move with the times and stayed amateur and their day passed, or Third Lanark who went pop. Others have had moments of glory and are still a bit of a force- Aberdeen and Hearts, but Celtic and Rangers dominate and crush all around them. Ask a remnant Clyde supporter.

Hibernian, in the post war period, were right up there. Only team outside Glasgow to average 30,000, a genuine mighty European side capable of beating the very best in the continent. There can be very very few British sides who have under-performed from the 1950-70 expectations as Hibernian. Leeds Utd may be but I challenge you to name another.

In my time of supporting Hibs we have had our moments but to be honest it been pretty tough (1977 first season). Hibs have along with, to a lessor extent, Dundee consistently under-performed with very few highs. To my mind there is no single reason for this but perhaps the unifying one was lack of leadership and short term fixes to appease with a complete lack of strategic vision.

When STF bought the club I though the rot had stopped - he is undoubtedly a winner- but that attitude has not translated to Easter Road. It is not all Petries fault but he is not inspirational and I feel much of the recent rot stops with him.

Our circumstances are now reduced. Too many embarrassing results, too many changes and short term panics has sapped the confidence, and our gates, but there is still enough legacy and goodwill to rebuild. For the first time for a long time I think we have a long term, attention to detail and determination. We may, or may not, go up this season, but for the first time in 40 odd years supporting Hibs I think there is a structure and longevity in place that might just succeed.

MWHIBBIES
29-10-2015, 06:59 PM
Recent history, the day Rod Petrie walked through the door.Was employed by Tom Farmer you mean?

Alfred E Newman
29-10-2015, 07:27 PM
Brownlie breaking his leg was bad enough but Edwards picking up a booking in the same game after being kicked all over the park , a booking that resulted in a ridiculous 8 week ban, meant the dream was over.

Scouse Hibee
29-10-2015, 07:30 PM
Not having a vision to believe in.

blackpoolhibs
29-10-2015, 07:30 PM
Was employed by Tom Farmer you mean?

Yip.

Kato
30-10-2015, 01:59 AM
Gordon Hunter picking up a scandalous red card at Ibrox in February 1994.



We had been riding high in the league and we were still in the Scottish Cup. The red card ended the game at Ibrox as a contest and handed Rangers a massive advantage in the title race.



Worse than that we had to go into the game against Hearts without Hunter. That Hibs team was superb and had strength in depth in all positions but whenever Hunter was missing the defence seemed to go to pot.



I don't want to go into too much detail but let's just say that if it wasn't for that red card then I am convinced we wouldn't have had to endure Wayne Foster doing quite so many half-time draws during derbies at Tynecastle over the years.



It was still (relatively speaking) a good season, finishing ahead of Celtic and behind excellent Rangers and Motherwell sides.



But who knows how it might have finished if it wasn't for McCluskey's poor decision that day at Ibrox?


Mark Hately pulled him down iirc. Brutal decision as it was a foul to Hibs.

Mixu62
30-10-2015, 05:06 AM
Yip.

How about the day Tom Farmer invested in the club ensuring its continued existence.

The day we signed Keith Wright.

Pete
30-10-2015, 05:47 AM
Latapy on the lash and Sauzee getting injured before SCF in 2001.

Good Celtic team mind you.

It was a phenomenal Celtic team. Class all over the park.

As for Latapy, he can GTF as far as I'm concerned for his unforgivable behaviour in the run up to that match. Hun legend who gave Martin O'Neill the treble...who'd have thought it.

blackpoolhibs
30-10-2015, 07:48 AM
How about the day Tom Farmer invested in the club ensuring its continued existence.

The day we signed Keith Wright.

Aye both great days, why would anyone think different? :confused:

Thecat23
30-10-2015, 07:51 AM
Craig Thompson.

Shore Thing
30-10-2015, 07:54 AM
Choosing to pay our debts and live within our means, whilst investing massively to replace our crumbling, outdated infrastructure

bigwheel
30-10-2015, 07:56 AM
I view the single factor that has affected us the most is - Lack of sporting ambition of the board.

If they had really wanted to win more, they would have taken different decisions and different actions.

magnificent_seven
30-10-2015, 09:59 AM
Great question and some really interesting responses.

In the history of Scottish football there have been a number of great sides. Some have come and gone like Queens Park who sadly and honourably did not move with the times and stayed amateur and their day passed, or Third Lanark who went pop. Others have had moments of glory and are still a bit of a force- Aberdeen and Hearts, but Celtic and Rangers dominate and crush all around them. Ask a remnant Clyde supporter.

Hibernian, in the post war period, were right up there. Only team outside Glasgow to average 30,000, a genuine mighty European side capable of beating the very best in the continent. There can be very very few British sides who have under-performed from the 1950-70 expectations as Hibernian. Leeds Utd may be but I challenge you to name another.

In my time of supporting Hibs we have had our moments but to be honest it been pretty tough (1977 first season). Hibs have along with, to a lessor extent, Dundee consistently under-performed with very few highs. To my mind there is no single reason for this but perhaps the unifying one was lack of leadership and short term fixes to appease with a complete lack of strategic vision.

When STF bought the club I though the rot had stopped - he is undoubtedly a winner- but that attitude has not translated to Easter Road. It is not all Petries fault but he is not inspirational and I feel much of the recent rot stops with him.

Our circumstances are now reduced. Too many embarrassing results, too many changes and short term panics has sapped the confidence, and our gates, but there is still enough legacy and goodwill to rebuild. For the first time for a long time I think we have a long term, attention to detail and determination. We may, or may not, go up this season, but for the first time in 40 odd years supporting Hibs I think there is a structure and longevity in place that might just succeed.

Great post!

NAE NOOKIE
30-10-2015, 10:33 AM
I agree with what people have said regarding the pre 2000 years, so I'll just look at post 2000.

Falling into the trap of believing that because the youth system had brought through half a team of good players over a short period, that we could do that on an ongoing basis ..... in reality a trick pulled off by one club in a hundred.

Going 6 years without signing a decent right back and the same amount of time with a makeshift left back.

Failing to get past Dunfermline in the SC semi with arguably the best team we have had in 30 years, which would have given us a crack at the worst Celtic team in 30 years in the final.

Not punting Calderwood the second he began disrespecting the club and the fans.

In a city with two teams competing for the allegiance of nearly half a million people you need to be able to keep up with the competition. It has been our misfortune to be in competition with a club whose total disregard for financial ethics in the last decade has directly and indirectly had a detrimental affect on our fortunes.

All that being said, I see a real change around the club now ...... onwards and upwards :aok:

Bad Martini
30-10-2015, 12:10 PM
It was a phenomenal Celtic team. Class all over the park.

As for Latapy, he can GTF as far as I'm concerned for his unforgivable behaviour in the run up to that match. Hun legend who gave Martin O'Neill the treble...who'd have thought it.

Agreed. The love in with Latapy on here pisses me off. We let him off with that because he was a wee magician? Took the piss more like and helped reduce our chances of winning **** all.

Anyways, milestones that have changed things:

1) Calderwood being allowed anywhere near any EH post code. One of the biggest numpties to walk the earth since the cavemen roamed around. Similar sized brain too.
2) John Collins being backed by nobody when it mattered (not financially) with the "lets go greetin to petrie" affair, despite being the first manager in decades to win anything and his biggest crime (apart from being a dick at times) was looking to achieve a winning team
3) Key players being allowed to leave and/or having deals removed/****ed about (I include Riordan in that)
4) Rowan Vine.

And last but by no means least, the arrival and utter desolation caused by Hurricane Butcher and his sidekick...

However, this gives too many passing yams and huns ammo and thus, I say **** it all. It's in the past, we cant change it and none of this **** would come to pass now I believe.

Anyways, onwards and upwards. GGTTH YA BASS.

ENDOF

southsider
30-10-2015, 02:44 PM
Cup Winners (sic) Cup in 1972. In the home leg we were 4-1 up only to loose a very late goal. In the return leg Black and Herriot bricked it and we lost 3-0. The Slavs were very loud but we were a fab team and were good enough to win the cup.

jockodile
31-10-2015, 07:24 AM
[QUOTE=Smartie;4490965]Gordon Hunter picking up a scandalous red card at Ibrox in February 1994.

We had been riding high in the league and we were still in the

94 that was a good season, prob Miller's best. Absolute travesty we missed out on Europe as Raith and Celtic won the cups.

Biggest factor in our underachieving though I think is a lack
Of killer instinct. We are far too easy beat/hostage to fortune, there is a culture of mediocrity that invites poor outcomes.

Winning the Scottish cup would end this mindset imo

Dashing Bob S
31-10-2015, 01:06 PM
Great question and some really interesting responses.

In the history of Scottish football there have been a number of great sides. Some have come and gone like Queens Park who sadly and honourably did not move with the times and stayed amateur and their day passed, or Third Lanark who went pop. Others have had moments of glory and are still a bit of a force- Aberdeen and Hearts, but Celtic and Rangers dominate and crush all around them. Ask a remnant Clyde supporter.

Hibernian, in the post war period, were right up there. Only team outside Glasgow to average 30,000, a genuine mighty European side capable of beating the very best in the continent. There can be very very few British sides who have under-performed from the 1950-70 expectations as Hibernian. Leeds Utd may be but I challenge you to name another.

In my time of supporting Hibs we have had our moments but to be honest it been pretty tough (1977 first season). Hibs have along with, to a lessor extent, Dundee consistently under-performed with very few highs. To my mind there is no single reason for this but perhaps the unifying one was lack of leadership and short term fixes to appease with a complete lack of strategic vision.

When STF bought the club I though the rot had stopped - he is undoubtedly a winner- but that attitude has not translated to Easter Road. It is not all Petries fault but he is not inspirational and I feel much of the recent rot stops with him.

Our circumstances are now reduced. Too many embarrassing results, too many changes and short term panics has sapped the confidence, and our gates, but there is still enough legacy and goodwill to rebuild. For the first time for a long time I think we have a long term, attention to detail and determination. We may, or may not, go up this season, but for the first time in 40 odd years supporting Hibs I think there is a structure and longevity in place that might just succeed.

The best response is your own. As a club we've always had a 'notion' of what we wanted; 'fast, entertaining, passing, football, challenging for honors and playing in Europe every season' without having the structure to achieve and sustain this. Therefore we've waited till we've lucked out with a manager or a team, then complained when somebody has been sold, injured, got pissed or cheated us. Don't get me wrong, these are big blows, but they shouldn't be devastating enough to send us into habitual tailspins and we should be able to roll with them.

Nowadays the game needs strategists, planners and thinkers who can look beyond the current line up and circumstances and determine of what will be needed in the future and as contingency. Dempster and Stubbs seem that sort of people. Petrie was regarding stadia and infrastructure, and we'll see the benefits over the coming seasons because that needed to be done, but he was too myopic and took his eye of the core business. So like a lot of Hibs fans I'm very schitizoid about the club at the moment - thoroughly depressed at where we currently are, but pretty excited as to where we are going go in the future.

Baldy Foghorn
31-10-2015, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE=Smartie;4490965]Gordon Hunter picking up a scandalous red card at Ibrox in February 1994.

We had been riding high in the league and we were still in the

94 that was a good season, prob Miller's best. Absolute travesty we missed out on Europe as Raith and Celtic won the cups.

Biggest factor in our underachieving though I think is a lack
Of killer instinct. We are far too easy beat/hostage to fortune, there is a culture of mediocrity that invites poor outcomes.

Winning the Scottish cup would end this mindset imo

I think that was the case, but not sure the new regime will accept mediocrity going forward....

Spike Mandela
31-10-2015, 02:18 PM
[QUOTE=jockodile;4491619]

I think that was the case, but not sure the new regime will accept mediocrity going forward....

:confused: Hopefully not, but we are at reasonable risk of spending our longest period in living memory in the lower leagues. How much more mediocre do you want?

Baldy Foghorn
31-10-2015, 02:22 PM
[QUOTE=Baldy Foghorn;4491715]

:confused: Hopefully not, but we are at reasonable risk of spending our longest period in living memory in the lower leagues. How much more mediocre do you want?

I meant that our Custodians were settling for finishing anywhere in SPL. Everything seems to be geared up to getting promoted, it may or may not happen, but doesn't mean the Club are accepting mediocrity now?