New league cup format

[greenpaper55]

From todays Record http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/summer-football-spfl-announce-revamped-6627405

Another of Doncasters disasters ?,

[Diclonius]

Sounds okay, isn't it basically how it was done back in the olden days?

[Slicer]

NEIL DONCASTER will today announce another stop gap £200,000 sponsorship deal for the League Cup - then reveal radical plans to overhaul the entire tournament in time for next season.

Record Sport understands the SPFL are set to press ahead with proposals to give the competition a massive revamp which will effectively bring summer football to Scotland as early as next year.

Talks between the clubs are already at an advanced stage with a broad agreement to reintroduce group stages which will begin in July, weeks ahead of the next league campaign.

It’s anticipated that the group stages will be regionalised which could result in a number of high profile derby matches in the likes of Dundee, Edinburgh and the Highlands.

But all clubs participating in Champions League or Europa League qualifiers will be exempt from these early showdowns and be parachuted into the competition in the later knock-out rounds.

A source said: “It all adds up to a major rebranding of a competition which has been running out of steam for a long time now. Summer football is something the fans seems to want so having competitive matches in July for the first time will provide an interesting yardstick.

“Also, as well as the potential for some big derby matches, regionalising the group stages will reduce transport costs for both the fans and the clubs so the hope is these changes will give the competition a badly needed shot in the arm.”

Last season railway specialists QTS paid around £100,000 to sponsor the League Cup from the semi-finals onwards, after Celtic and Rangers had been paired in the last four.

It’s expected this latest deal - which will begin at the quarter final stage - will be worth more than double that sum.

[andrew70]

From todays Record http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/summer-football-spfl-announce-revamped-6627405

Another of Doncasters disasters ?,

Think this is just the start of a re-organisation of our game that is long overdue.

I like the sound of it to be honest.

[Peevemor]

Sounds okay, isn't it basically how it was done back in the olden days?


:agree: - although it wasn't regionalised.

Everyone moaned about it and much preferred the current format when it was introduced. The fact there was a place in Europe for the winners added extra interest.

[Pretty Boy]

Quite like the idea in principle.

It will be good for our European participants to get a couple of competitive games under their belt before playing their qualifying games. Hopefully that is relevant to Hibs in the not too distant future.

Dare I say it may be worth trialling allowing a drink at a game in the early rounds as well? A sunny July day watching competitive football with a cold beer sounds like it could have appeal.

[greenpaper55]

This format might allow the league to be enlarged to 16 as it would give you the extra games you would lose to the bigger league.

[Billychaotic182]

I like it

[overdrive]

Quite like the idea in principle.

It will be good for our European participants to get a couple of competitive games under their belt before playing their qualifying games. Hopefully that is relevant to Hibs in the not too distant future.

Dare I say it may be worth trialling allowing a drink at a game in the early rounds as well? A sunny July day watching competitive football with a cold beer sounds like it could have appeal.

The teams in Europe won't be involved in this stage. It says they will enter at the knockout stages

[macca70]

Sounds like a change in the right direction, , not so sure I agree with parachuting teams playing in Europe straight into knock outs and therefore avoiding the groups.

So you'll have some teams knocked out before other teams have even joined in. I wouldn't imagine there would be that many knockout games so effectively a team joining in after groups eg Celtic might only have to win 3/4 games to win the cup.

Not quite sure what the solution to that is though.

[Kaff]

Quite like the idea in principle.

It will be good for our European participants to get a couple of competitive games under their belt before playing their qualifying games. Hopefully that is relevant to Hibs in the not too distant future.

Dare I say it may be worth trialling allowing a drink at a game in the early rounds as well? A sunny July day watching competitive football with a cold beer sounds like it could have appeal.
I would say exactly the same but I read it that the European qualifiers were exempt and would go straight to knockout stage?
Celtic would never forego the lucrative friendly circuit pre season for a 'diddy cup', even though they bemoan thefact they are needing competitive practice more than anyone. Money is truly the scourge of our game

[Pretty Boy]

The teams in Europe won't be involved in this stage. It says they will enter at the knockout stages

Aah that will teach me to read to the bottom.

I wonder if clubs were consulted as I would have thought, with the exception of tge consistently awkward Celtic, a few of them may have fancied it.

[CallumLaidlaw]

Quite like the idea in principle.

It will be good for our European participants to get a couple of competitive games under their belt before playing their qualifying games. Hopefully that is relevant to Hibs in the not too distant future.

Dare I say it may be worth trialling allowing a drink at a game in the early rounds as well? A sunny July day watching competitive football with a cold beer sounds like it could have appeal.

Except they won't (unless I read it wrong). It says the teams that are in Europe will be exempt until the later knockout phase.

Edit - already been beaten to it

[erin go bragh]

I like the idea , but they should bring back the European place for the winners .

GGTTH

[Monts]

It's very similar to plans people have put on here many times that would allow league expansion

[Just Alf]

It's very similar to plans people have put on here many times that would allow league expansion

Indeed, maybe this is the 1st step..... The game certainly needs something to change

[Col2]

We need to extend the top league for next season to 14 or 16 and use the league cup and extra cash generator to fill any gaps of not having 4 games a season.

[BoomtownHibees]

Sounds like a change in the right direction, , not so sure I agree with parachuting teams playing in Europe straight into knock outs and therefore avoiding the groups.

So you'll have some teams knocked out before other teams have even joined in. I wouldn't imagine there would be that many knockout games so effectively a team joining in after groups eg Celtic might only have to win 3/4 games to win the cup.

Not quite sure what the solution to that is though.

That kind of happens just now with teams joining at a later stage to others so no big change to that

[J-C]

Getting ready for league reconstruction by the looks of it.

[Scorrie]

I like the idea , but they should bring back the European place for the winners .

GGTTH

Agreed. A European spot would be good but like the look of these plans. Start of a major restructuring of Scottish football hopefully...

[jacomo]

Agreed. A European spot would be good but like the look of these plans. Start of a major restructuring of Scottish football hopefully...

A source said 'fans seem to want summer football', so in true Doncaster style lets just blunder into a change without being really sure if it is what people want or what it is expected to achieve.

[Lee Marvin]

Getting ready for league reconstruction by the looks of it.

These were my initial thoughts.

I'm completely behind it and if it does happen next year, I can't see them not restructuring the league's at the same time - which would be great for hibs

[Billy Whizz]

Wonder what will happen to cup top up, with so many guaranteed home games?

[steakbake]

Doncaster is an absolute liability. The key phrase is "long awaited" - and chimes a bit with TheClumpany's latest post which I thought was bang on in the light of Henry McLeish's comments: https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/summit-to-shout-about/

They've had ages to sort things out and this is really just getting something moving that if they had any real sense of the 'armageddon' of the game they were banging on about a few years ago, they'd have had this tied up. It's not like they've had sponsors to worry about...

The other thing which they've really not learned about guaranteeing "big derby matches" is the potential for one of those teams to go bust. The Rangers are far from secure financially. What have they learned from the events of the last few years? Nothing really.

Pleased to see some change at least as the LC format gives it it's second string appearance in comparison to other competitions in the league and the Scottish Cup, but this is a slow pace of change and again, I worry that all the eggs are being put in the Glasgow Derby basket.

The people at the top end who are the custodians of the game in this country look like, act like and are rank amateurs.

[Gatecrasher]

Sounds good if it means less mid week games and more summer football. Hopefully this leads to a larger premier league. It could also mean the league cup is completed before Christmas which I thought was better.


I worry that all the eggs are being put in the Glasgow Derby basket.

They all ready are and have been for a long time imo

[Pretty Boy]

Sounds good if it means less mid week games and more summer football. Hopefully this leads to a larger premier league. It could also mean the league cup is completed before Christmas which I thought was better.

Good point.

I think a big problem with the LC now, aside from the loss of the European place, is it just drags on too long. The gap between quarters and then semi final and final is ridiculous. Get it wrapped up by November as an early season competition, a chance to build a bit momentum etc then let the SC and leagues be the showpieces for the later season.

[steakbake]

Sounds good if it means less mid week games and more summer football. Hopefully this leads to a larger premier league. It could also mean the league cup is completed before Christmas which I thought was better.



They all ready are and have been for a long time imo

... yet again. :agree:

[NAE NOOKIE]

Agreed. A European spot would be good but like the look of these plans. Start of a major restructuring of Scottish football hopefully...

With no European place, why not award the winners 6 league points and the runners up 3 :greengrin

As others have said, lets hope its the first step to a bigger league :agree:

[jdships]

This smacks of " papering over the cracks " appearing in Scottish football.:rolleyes:
Why not just extend the top league for next season to 14 or 16 as the great majority of supporters want ? :confused:

[Sammy7nil]

Quite like the idea in principle.

It will be good for our European participants to get a couple of competitive games under their belt before playing their qualifying games. Hopefully that is relevant to Hibs in the not too distant future.

Dare I say it may be worth trialling allowing a drink at a game in the early rounds as well? A sunny July day watching competitive football with a cold beer sounds like it could have appeal.

European entrants are exempt from early rounds

[NAE NOOKIE]

This smacks of " papering over the cracks " appearing in Scottish football.:rolleyes:
Why not just extend the top league for next season to 14 or 16 as the great majority of supporters want ? :confused:

Give the supporters what they want? !!! ..... are you mad, have you been drinking? !!!

[Ryan69]

These were my initial thoughts.

I'm completely behind it and if it does happen next year, I can't see them not restructuring the league's at the same time - which would be great for hibs

I'm sure I read on here somebody stating that for league reconstruction to take place there has tobe a 1 year notice period.

[Scorrie]

I'm sure I read on here somebody stating that for league reconstruction to take place there has tobe a 1 year notice period.

Only if The Rangers get promotion. If they don't, an hour's notice will do...

[--------]

Sounds okay, isn't it basically how it was done back in the olden days?


OLDEN DAYS?

In living memory of a lot of posters on this forum, chum. :grr:

Actually, it's similar, but in the 1960's and 70's the opening rounds were four-team pools determined by league placing.

IIRC the 1st, 5th, 9th and 13th teams from the First Division played in Section One; the 2nd, 6th, 10th, and 14th in Section Two; the 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th in Section Three; and the 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th in Section Four.

The promoted clubs played the relegated teams, and then the Second Division was split up into another four sections (5-8) in the same way as the First Division - 3,7,11,15; 4,8,12, 16 and so on. The bottom five in Div 2 played each other in Section 9. There wasn't an actual draw, in other words - who you played in the LC was decided by League position alone.

That gave us eight sections of four teams and one of five; the winners of Sections 8 and 9 played off, then each winner of the Div One sections played a winner of one of the Div Two sections in the quarter-finals (home and away). Semis were on neutral grounds - in other words, whichever of the Gruesome Twosome you got drawn against, you played them in Glasgow at the other stadium - Ibrox if you got the Soapdodgers, Parkhead if you got the Huns.

Final at Hampden in late November usually.

So when we won the thing in '72 we played 6 section matches, 2 in the quarters, a semi and the Final - ten matches. Looks complicated, but it did work.

Led to a lot of duplication of fixtures, though, and some daft scores - I remember us doing Alloa 11-2 - 13-3 on aggregate - in the quarters one year.

[JimBHibees]

OLDEN DAYS?

In living memory of a lot of posters on this forum, chum. :grr:

Actually, it's similar, but in the 1960's and 70's the opening rounds were four-team pools determined by league placing.

IIRC the 1st, 5th, 9th and 13th teams from the First Division played in Section One; the 2nd, 6th, 10th, and 14th in Section Two; the 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th in Section Three; and the 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th in Section Four.

The promoted clubs played the relegated teams, and then the Second Division was split up into another four sections (5-8) in the same way as the First Division - 3,7,11,15; 4,8,12, 16 and so on. The bottom five in Div 2 played each other in Section 9. There wasn't an actual draw, in other words - who you played in the LC was decided by League position alone.

That gave us eight sections of four teams and one of five; the winners of Sections 8 and 9 played off, then each winner of the Div One sections played a winner of one of the Div Two sections in the quarter-finals (home and away). Semis were on neutral grounds - in other words, whichever of the Gruesome Twosome you got drawn against, you played them in Glasgow at the other stadium - Ibrox if you got the Soapdodgers, Parkhead if you got the Huns.

Final at Hampden in late November usually.

So when we won the thing in '72 we played 6 section matches, 2 in the quarters, a semi and the Final - ten matches. Looks complicated, but it did work.

Led to a lot of duplication of fixtures, though, and some daft scores - I remember us doing Alloa 11-2 - 13-3 on aggregate - in the quarters one year.

I think it was a typo there should have been a G on the front of olden. :greengrin

[ancient hibee]

My recollection is that the agitation to move away from League Cup sections was when Rangers and Celtic got drawn in the same section a couple of times.This meant that both teams could not progress which of course was totally beyond the pale.
As an aside Scotland has nothing to learn from FIFA in the realm of football corruption.I don't remember(faulty memory probably)the old firm coming out of the hat together in semi finals until they started to do the draws in public.

[Eyrie]

Good point.

I think a big problem with the LC now, aside from the loss of the European place, is it just drags on too long. The gap between quarters and then semi final and final is ridiculous. Get it wrapped up by November as an early season competition, a chance to build a bit momentum etc then let the SC and leagues be the showpieces for the later season.

Agreed - when we won the League Cup back in 1991 the final was 27 October.

[StevieBoyKdy]

I personally don't like the regional settings, even more so with Celtic getting 'parachuted' in later due to euro commitments isn't this just another way round of trying to make it interesting so the ugly sisters reach the later rounds and the likes of decent teams, dundee and Utd, ict v Ross county, Hibs v yams will always end up meeting each other in earlier rounds. Call me cynical but just seems like another farce.

[Danderhall Hibs]

The loss of the European place isn't that big an issue is it? How many folk were disappointed after the 07 final cos we weren't getting the opportunity to get embarrassed in July?

[marinello59]

My recollection is that the agitation to move away from League Cup sections was when Rangers and Celtic got drawn in the same section a couple of times.This meant that both teams could not progress which of course was totally beyond the pale.
As an aside Scotland has nothing to learn from FIFA in the realm of football corruption.I don't remember(faulty memory probably)the old firm coming out of the hat together in semi finals until they started to do the draws in public.

My recollection is the sections had become tedious beyond belief and people just stopped going.

[MJN1875]

From todays Record http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/summer-football-spfl-announce-revamped-6627405

Another of Doncasters disasters ?,

Will never work, sounds a total farce to me like everything else he touches. Why not revamp the leagues never mind the league cup.

[lucky]

I don't like it unless it comes with league restructuring. More games and the European qualifiers get a bye to the latter stages of the competition

[Baldy Foghorn]

I don't like it unless it comes with league restructuring. More games and the European qualifiers get a bye to the latter stages of the competition

I'm with you, don't like the new format. We really have to think more outside the box.....

[Ray_]

OLDEN DAYS?

In living memory of a lot of posters on this forum, chum. :grr:

Actually, it's similar, but in the 1960's and 70's the opening rounds were four-team pools determined by league placing.

IIRC the 1st, 5th, 9th and 13th teams from the First Division played in Section One; the 2nd, 6th, 10th, and 14th in Section Two; the 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th in Section Three; and the 4th, 8th, 12th and 16th in Section Four.

The promoted clubs played the relegated teams, and then the Second Division was split up into another four sections (5-8) in the same way as the First Division - 3,7,11,15; 4,8,12, 16 and so on. The bottom five in Div 2 played each other in Section 9. There wasn't an actual draw, in other words - who you played in the LC was decided by League position alone.

That gave us eight sections of four teams and one of five; the winners of Sections 8 and 9 played off, then each winner of the Div One sections played a winner of one of the Div Two sections in the quarter-finals (home and away). Semis were on neutral grounds - in other words, whichever of the Gruesome Twosome you got drawn against, you played them in Glasgow at the other stadium - Ibrox if you got the Soapdodgers, Parkhead if you got the Huns.

Final at Hampden in late November usually.

So when we won the thing in '72 we played 6 section matches, 2 in the quarters, a semi and the Final - ten matches. Looks complicated, but it did work.

Led to a lot of duplication of fixtures, though, and some daft scores - I remember us doing Alloa 11-2 - 13-3 on aggregate - in the quarters one year.


Hi Doddie, the format changed the season we won it, in 1972. There was two top league teams and two from the second division, which made the four team section. Hibs had Aberdeen, Queen of the South and Queens Park in their section. The Q of the S keeper was called Allan Ball, even although he was beaten three times at Easter Road, he played an absolute blinder. I think the only keepers I have seen, who put on a similar display to Mr Ball at ER that day, was Norbet Nigbur [Sepp Maier's deputy at the time] of Schalke [0-0] & Peter McCloy [1973 Scottish Cup reply]

There was also an extra round, with Hibs it was Dundee United & we played in Dundee in the first leg & I'm sure we were getting beat at half time and we done our regular [for them days], second half turn around, and won 5-2. The second leg was 0-0 and the most memorable event of that game [for me] was Alan Gordon playing on the left wing, after he was injured in the second half, he was still going past players with ease and that clearly wasn't what he was renown for.

Airdrie away, for the first leg of the quarter finals and again, scoring a hat full in the second half, turned our half time deficit in to a 6-2 win, then we had our 4-1 home win in the second leg.

The Semi, Hampden and Rangers, although we dominated the game, we never played as well as we usually did against Rangers, during that period, but John Brownlie's run from around the half way line, finished off with a great shot in to the corner of the net, sealed us the early December [Pat Stanton] final.

The following season, when Dundee won it, the league cup followed the same format and then for the 74/5 season, they dropped the extra round.

[--------]

I think it was a typo there should have been a G on the front of olden. :greengrin

That would have been much more like it, Jim.




Hi Doddie, the format changed the season we won it, in 1972. There was two top league teams and two from the second division, which made the four team section. Hibs had Aberdeen, Queen of the South and Queens Park in their section. The Q of the S keeper was called Allan Ball, even although he was beaten three times at Easter Road, he played an absolute blinder. I think the only keepers I have seen, who put on a similar display to Mr Ball at ER day, was Norbet Nigbur [Sepp Maier's deputy at the time] of Schalke [0-0] & Peter McCloy [1973 Scottish Cup reply]

There was also an extra round, with Hibs it was Dundee United & we played in Dundee in the first leg & I'm sure we were getting beat at half time and we done our regular [for them days], second half turn around, and won 5-2. The second leg was 0-0 and the most memorable event of that game [for me] was Alan Gordon playing on the left wing, after he was injured in the second half, he was still going past players with ease and that clearly wasn't what he was renown for.

Airdrie away, for the first leg of the quarter finals and again, scoring a hat full in the second half, turned our half time deficit in to a 6-2 win, then we had our 4-1 home win in the second leg.

The Semi, Hampden and Rangers, although we dominated the game, we never played as well as we usually did against Rangers, during that period, but John Brownlie's run from around the half way line, finished off with a great shot in to the corner of the net, sealed us the early December [Pat Stanton] final.

The following season, when Dundee won it, the league cup followed the same format and then for the 74/5 season, they dropped the extra round.

As soon as I started that post, Ray, I knew it was a mistake. A bit like the time I tried to explain the game of cricket to my Canadian cousin - the longer I went on and the deeper I got into things the more certain I was I was getting things hopelessly and irrevocably WRONG.

I thank you for your most learned and gracious elucidation, M'Lud. :not worth

[greenpaper55]

From todays daily Ranger regarding a 16 team league and a quote from Doncaster

RANGERS boss Mark Warburton has been told there is no chance of a 16-team top flight.
Warburton had said that Scotland’s top flight teams were suffering from overkill from playing each other four times a year.
But Neil Doncaster claimed: “I don’t see it. I don’t see sufficient demand from clubs or our other stakeholders for that.
“If you look at other countries with the population similar to Scotland, I don’t know of any who have larger leagues. There are so many problems with the format and meaningless mid-table games.”

You will notice there is nothing regarding what the fans want !.

[marinello59]

From todays daily Ranger regarding a 16 team league and a quote from Doncaster

RANGERS boss Mark Warburton has been told there is no chance of a 16-team top flight.
Warburton had said that Scotland’s top flight teams were suffering from overkill from playing each other four times a year.
But Neil Doncaster claimed: “I don’t see it. I don’t see sufficient demand from clubs or our other stakeholders for that.
“If you look at other countries with the population similar to Scotland, I don’t know of any who have larger leagues. There are so many problems with the format and meaningless mid-table games.”

You will notice there is nothing regarding what the fans want !.
Maybe Doncaster thinks this dogs breakfast of a rejig to the League Cup will somehow appease those of us who want radical change. No doubt the low crowds who turn out for the meaningless mismatched group games that we will inevitably end up with will be used as an excuse to dismiss summer football for good. However this clown is employed to do the clubs bidding and that's where we should be applying pressure. If we want bigger leagues then we have to get our club to press for it, not waste our time on their employee.

[Monts]

From todays daily Ranger regarding a 16 team league and a quote from Doncaster

RANGERS boss Mark Warburton has been told there is no chance of a 16-team top flight.
Warburton had said that Scotland’s top flight teams were suffering from overkill from playing each other four times a year.
But Neil Doncaster claimed: “I don’t see it. I don’t see sufficient demand from clubs or our other stakeholders for that.
“If you look at other countries with the population similar to Scotland, I don’t know of any who have larger leagues. There are so many problems with the format and meaningless mid-table games.”

You will notice there is nothing regarding what the fans want !.

Someone posted on Twitter that Bosnia, Georgia, Norway, Denmark and Serbia all have a similar population and a larger league.