Cia funding isis

[Rasta_Hibs]

Has anyone else woken up to the fact that the US Government along with the western powers have been funding ISIS whilst telling its populations that it has been fighting this group.

What a crazy thought eh?

[CropleyWasGod]

Has anyone else woken up to the fact that the US Government along with the western powers have been funding ISIS whilst telling its populations that it has been fighting this group.

What a crazy thought eh?
Fact?

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[Rasta_Hibs]

Fact?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

According to both Obama & John McCain then yes.

[RyeSloan]

Has anyone else woken up to the fact that the US Government along with the western powers have been funding ISIS whilst telling its populations that it has been fighting this group. What a crazy thought eh?

What? Like the CIA finding mujahideen that turned into Taliban? No one would ever believe that governments and their secret service would be as foolish to think they were the puppet masters and the play to reach its inevitable orchestrated end without some hiccup or two along the way!

I think ISIS not only knows how to raise finance and army's it's also more than smart enough to tap into the worlds rather dark geo political gamesmanship. It's mere existence proves that. You can trace funding back to many many sources...it's a bit like watching a global real world version of The Wire, just not as entertaining.

[Just Alf]

Could do with some supporting detail so that I can make a semi informed decision

[Rasta_Hibs]

Obama can beu quoted on saying the CIA have trained ISIS/ISIL.

John McCain is quoted in press saying US should give Free Syra Army / ISIS / ISIL anti-air craft weapons to shoot down Russian planes.

Nato member Turkey bombs Kurds as the Kurds are about finish off ISIS. Turkey also buys ISIS oil.

Essentially its western allies in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and others supporting ISIS.

[Peevemor]

Could do with some supporting detail so that I can make a semi informed decision

https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2015/07/08/special-ops-officer-blows-whistle-on-cia-funding-isis-through-swiss-bank-accounts/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

There's loads to be found by googling. . However it's up to you room decide whether the sources are credible.

In any case, it's clear that we live in an extremely screwed up world.

[Colr]

According to both Obama & John McCain then yes.

is that because obama is a muslim?

[Rasta_Hibs]

is that because obama is a muslim?

I don't think that is the reason why US funds ISIS haha

[CropleyWasGod]

Well having read this I know which side of the fence I am on. This is a lot of sh***e[emoji1]

Actors dressed as jihadi's, Isis training camp in El Paso and America wants WW3 with Russia which would probably end the world. In the word of Dr Evil Riiiiiiigggghhht!
Infamy, infamy. ......

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[Peevemor]

Well having read this I know which side of the fence I am on. This is a lot of sh***e[emoji1]

Actors dressed as jihadi's, Isis training camp in El Paso and America wants WW3 with Russia which would probably end the world. In the word of Dr Evil Riiiiiiigggghhht!

I deliberately posted that link, being one of the more sensational items that showed up on the first page of my google search.

Obviously each of us will choose what we want to believe. Personally I believe that there are things going on that are beyond belief.

[Chip shop Joe]

Yes everyone is most definitely entitled to an opinion and you are right that America do get involved in very dodgy goings on.

However not sure that Isis actually needs money as on sacking Mosul they looted the bank of some 800 million dollars and also as mentioned above sells oil to both Turkey and Syria making, depending who you believe, anything from 1m to 5m dollars a day. Add to this the funding from Saudi and you have a pretty nice sum.

America, for once, does not have the appetite for war so think that getting into a confrontation with Russia, who most definitely do, would surely be the last thing that they want.

[Chip shop Joe]

Syria is an absolutely nightmare for the West as there is no "good" outcome. Unlike previous wars where we had our own choice of President to install. In Syria we have either Assad who is a staunch ally of Russia and Iran and has killed thousands of his own people or we have ISIS who are carrying out atrocities left right and centre and are intent on doing the same in the UK. I really think it is a war that could last for a generation and will only be won with "boots on the ground" these will definitely not be UK or US boots and realistically will only be Iranian who have a massive armed forces but if they get involved in a large scale it then turns the war into a Shia v Sunni war which is exactly what ISIS want as they will gain immense financial and physical support from other Sunni countries such as Saudi and Qatar.

In short it is an absolute mess which sadly involves hundreds of people dying each day but with no easy way of fixing it.

[Betty Boop]

Has anyone else woken up to the fact that the US Government along with the western powers have been funding ISIS whilst telling its populations that it has been fighting this group.

What a crazy thought eh?
Aye yonks ago !

[Chip shop Joe]

You would have to ask yourself why though. Syria has very little oil and has Russian ports and air bases. Iraq has loads of oil which pre ISIS was pretty much all in American hands anyway with a US installed government. So I am not entirely sure what they have to gain by this?

[lord bunberry]

This guy certainly thinks so

http://youtu.be/KmQw6CryE9M
http://youtu.be/KmQw6CryE9M

[Just Alf]

https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2015/07/08/special-ops-officer-blows-whistle-on-cia-funding-isis-through-swiss-bank-accounts/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/03/us-isis-syria-iraq

There's loads to be found by googling. . However it's up to you room decide whether the sources are credible.

In any case, it's clear that we live in an extremely screwed up world.

Ta muchly, was stuck on my phone at the time :aok:

[Rasta_Hibs]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881

A good read I think.

[Chip shop Joe]

But again this makes no sense. There a lot of things going on but it is nowhere near as cut and dry as this article suggests. For a start the U.S. has lifted sanctions on Iran, partly in my opinion to get their help fighting ISIS. Then there are the US bombings of ISIS every day. Again in my opinion this whole conflict is about what the two gulf wars were, oil. America had it when Iraq was stable and now ISIS are threatening this they are taking action including bringing in one of their "axis of evil" countries in from the cold.

You have to ask yourself why now? And also where Iraqs oil is located? Exactly the places where America are involved in conflict.

[Rasta_Hibs]

But again this makes no sense. There a lot of things going on but it is nowhere near as cut and dry as this article suggests. For a start the U.S. has lifted sanctions on Iran, partly in my opinion to get their help fighting ISIS. Then there are the US bombings of ISIS every day. Again in my opinion this whole conflict is about what the two gulf wars were, oil. America had it when Iraq was stable and now ISIS are threatening this they are taking action including bringing in one of their "axis of evil" countries in from the cold.

You have to ask yourself why now? And also where Iraqs oil is located? Exactly the places where America are involved in conflict.

I think that's a bit of wishfull thinking on your part.

[Peevemor]

But again this makes no sense. There a lot of things going on but it is nowhere near as cut and dry as this article suggests. For a start the U.S. has lifted sanctions on Iran, partly in my opinion to get their help fighting ISIS. Then there are the US bombings of ISIS every day. Again in my opinion this whole conflict is about what the two gulf wars were, oil. America had it when Iraq was stable and now ISIS are threatening this they are taking action including bringing in one of their "axis of evil" countries in from the cold.

You have to ask yourself why now? And also where Iraqs oil is located? Exactly the places where America are involved in conflict.

Here's Vlad's view

https://youtu.be/OQuceU3x2Ww

[Pretty Boy]

I deliberately posted that link, being one of the more sensational items that showed up on the first page of my google search.

Obviously each of us will choose what we want to believe. Personally I believe that there are things going on that are beyond belief.

It always amazes me how many people still seem happy to accept the 'official line' on almost everything. I find that far more bizarre than those who believe even the more ridiculous conspiracy theories kicking about.

I think we will see that change, indeed it already is, as the power of social media and alternative reporting continues to grow and move into the 'mainstream'. The flow of information from the written and spoken press that governments are, to varying extents, able to manipulate and control will become less easily managed.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Ignorance is bliss.

[Chip shop Joe]

I think that's a bit of wishfull thinking on your part.

Which part is wishful thinking?

[Chip shop Joe]

To be fair vlad loses the argument when he calls Syria a democracy [emoji1].

He does make some valid points that America are Imperialistic and like I say it is all about oil but the U.S. Armed the Iraqi army who were then Looted by ISIS so not really the same as arming ISIS.

There are no sanctions on Syria and Turkey for buying ISIS oil as the U.S. Is using Turkish airbases to fight ISIS and Syria is also fighting ISIS.

Why did the U.S. Get involved in Libya? Oil and this is what vlad is getting at the US are getting involved to suit their own imperialistic needs.

Why do the US never fight in Africa? No oil.

Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan what do they all have in common? Oil not quite so much in afghans case but they have absolutely loads of gas and precious metals as well as being strategically placed on a massive oil pipeline.

This is why the U.S. Supporting ISIS makes no sense whatsoever.

[Peevemor]

To be fair vlad loses the argument when he calls Syria a democracy [emoji1].

He does make some valid points that America are Imperialistic and like I say it is all about oil but the U.S. Armed the Iraqi army who were then Looted by ISIS so not really the same as arming ISIS.

There are no sanctions on Syria and Turkey for buying ISIS oil as the U.S. Is using Turkish airbases to fight ISIS and Syria is also fighting ISIS.

Why did the U.S. Get involved in Libya? Oil and this is what vlad is getting at the US are getting involved to suit their own imperialistic needs.

Why do the US never fight in Africa? No oil.

Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan what do they all have in common? Oil not quite so much in afghans case but they have absolutely loads of gas and precious metals as well as being strategically placed on a massive oil pipeline.

This is why the U.S. Supporting ISIS makes no sense whatsoever.

He's saying that the US supported certain factions who, at the time, were the enemy of their enemy (therefore a friend) but who, like many tribe/clan chiefs & warlords throughout global history, then sold out to the highest bidder. He's accusing the US of short sightedness with unilateral actions that affect not only the US, some of which come back to bite them on the bum in a major way (Osama bin Laden anyone?).

[Chip shop Joe]

This is most definitely true throughout history but where was the enemy in Libya? They got involved there when gaddafi who had arranged all the oil deals with them was being overthrown and their agreements were now at risk. For Libya read Iraq.

As I said before the U.S. Is bring completely imperialistic and I agree with vlad but I believe it's reasons for doing so are for oil and therefore supporting ISIS does not make sense.

The CIA did train and fund bin laden when he was in a direct war with Russia who they were in an arms race with.

Things have now changed, the cold war has ended and while they are still at loggerheads most actions are carried out behind the scenes cyber warfare etc.

[Hibbyradge]

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/10/05/isis-on-the-run-russian-airstrikes-totally-obliterate-terrorist-forces-in-just-72-hours/

:hmmm:

[Chip shop Joe]

Hmmm indeed. A very well thought of publication that. Well known for impartial views[emoji1]

U do have to love the Russians though. I take it since they have cleared out Isis they will not still be bombing in 6 months?

[Rasta_Hibs]

Which part is wishful thinking?

Im a a bit crude with my communications.

The part where you said America has brought Iran in from the cold to help fight ISIS. I think the US was pressured into making the deal from the EU so the EU can trade with Iran - This was what John Kerry said before congress, saying if deal wasn't made the US could loose EU support. That would mean the end of the dollar world reserve status and you know what happens after that.

US playing all sides against each other to create mayhem In the middle east.

I think they have created this mess on purpose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pGkFMho6Co

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7NsXFnzJGw

[Chip shop Joe]

Im a a bit crude with my communications.

The part where you said America has brought Iran in from the cold to help fight ISIS. I think the US was pressured into making the deal from the EU so the EU can trade with Iran - This was what John Kerry said before congress, saying if deal wasn't made the US could loose EU support. That would mean the end of the dollar world reserve status and you know what happens after that.

US playing all sides against each other to create mayhem In the middle east.

I think they have created this mess on purpose.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pGkFMho6Co

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7NsXFnzJGw

No problem with your "crudeness" [emoji1]

Although the single biggest word from Kerry is could.

When have you ever known America to bow to pressure from anyone and not do something that they want to do? Least of all Europe which seems to be crumbling around our ears!

Again though I have to ask why now? Iran has always been a wealthy country with loads and loads of oil, do you see a theme here and I am sure that most countries have wanted to have trade links for years. But America did not need to because:

Iraq has loads of oil with American companies signed up and exploiting this.

Then ISIS take control of said oil (without US support[emoji1]) and suddenly America might need a new source of oil and an enemy of ISIS. This is where Iran comes in!

Sorry if I am labouring the point of oil but it's importance cannot be over stated.

I realise that I am oversimplifying this whole subject but I have a great deal of interest in the subject and am paid to offer an opinion on it.

The truth is we are probably all correct in some manner as it is a complete mess but it is pretty clear to me that it all boils down to oil, oil, oil!

[Rasta_Hibs]

No problem with your "crudeness" [emoji1]

Although the single biggest word from Kerry is could.

When have you ever known America to bow to pressure from anyone and not do something that they want to do? Least of all Europe which seems to be crumbling around our ears!

Again though I have to ask why now? Iran has always been a wealthy country with loads and loads of oil, do you see a theme here and I am sure that most countries have wanted to have trade links for years. But America did not need to because:

Iraq has loads of oil with American companies signed up and exploiting this.

Then ISIS take control of said oil (without US support[emoji1]) and suddenly America might need a new source of oil and an enemy of ISIS. This is where Iran comes in!

Sorry if I am labouring the point of oil but it's importance cannot be over stated.

I realise that I am oversimplifying this whole subject but I have a great deal of interest in the subject and am paid to offer an opinion on it.

The truth is we are probably all correct in some manner as it is a complete mess but it is pretty clear to me that it all boils down to oil, oil, oil!

I don't think USA has any lack of access to oil as stands and you would think less so in the future with new technology replacing "crudish" energy sources such as oil from the gulf and the emergence of shale gas should lessen the need for foreign oil maybe?

[Chip shop Joe]

You can't run a car on shale gas! How long do you think it will be before every car is run on renewable batteries etc. 20, 30, 40 years? We are going to have to disagree on this. you are obviously more than welcome to your opinion but I am not really sure what it is? I have outlined mine above and reasons for my thoughts. Can I ask what your thoughts are?

[Rasta_Hibs]

You can't run a car on shale gas! How long do you think it will be before every car is run on renewable batteries etc. 20, 30, 40 years? We are going to have to disagree on this. you are obviously more than welcome to your opinion but I am not really sure what it is? I have outlined mine above and reasons for my thoughts. Can I ask what your thoughts are?

Aye if you tell me who pays you to give your opinion? Just kidding of course.

Basically Im trying to work out whats going on.

Maybe all these wars moves made to prop up the dollar and allow the Federal Reserve to continue to print high value dollars of the press. Unlimited money printing press with the dollar pegged to oil. Saddam wanted to trade oil in Euro's = Gone. Gadaffi wanted to trade oil with a gold dinah = Gone.

Is that what you mean in regards to oil the petrodollar or supply of oil?

[Chip shop Joe]

It is definitely true that the petrodollar was an absolute Master stroke by the Americans.

Besides the horrific nature of war it is also bloody expensive. Why would they keep doing it if it is costing literally trillions of dollars? No country even with Americas wealth can sustain that. They must be getting it back somehow and that is where the oil comes in.

Every conflict the U.S. get into is to do with oil be it to maintain the petrodollar or control/manage as much as they can.

It will be no surprise at all that when Iraq is stabilised again, whenever that might be, prices of oil will go back up. Even though there will be more of it for sale with Iran now involved. The price was high when America benefited through their control of Iraqs oil and they and Saudi could dictate prices. But now they are having to buy it the price drops. Coincidence?

Anyway we are both agreed that they are for the watching [emoji1]

[GreenLake]

No problem with your "crudeness" [emoji1]

Although the single biggest word from Kerry is could.

When have you ever known America to bow to pressure from anyone and not do something that they want to do? Least of all Europe which seems to be crumbling around our ears!

Again though I have to ask why now? Iran has always been a wealthy country with loads and loads of oil, do you see a theme here and I am sure that most countries have wanted to have trade links for years. But America did not need to because:

Iraq has loads of oil with American companies signed up and exploiting this.

Then ISIS take control of said oil (without US support[emoji1]) and suddenly America might need a new source of oil and an enemy of ISIS. This is where Iran comes in!

Sorry if I am labouring the point of oil but it's importance cannot be over stated.

I realise that I am oversimplifying this whole subject but I have a great deal of interest in the subject and am paid to offer an opinion on it.

The truth is we are probably all correct in some manner as it is a complete mess but it is pretty clear to me that it all boils down to oil, oil, oil!

What does oil in a chippy deep fryer have to do with the middle east? :greengrin

[Rasta_Hibs]

It is definitely true that the petrodollar was an absolute Master stroke by the Americans.

Besides the horrific nature of war it is also bloody expensive. Why would they keep doing it if it is costing literally trillions of dollars? No country even with Americas wealth can sustain that. They must be getting it back somehow and that is where the oil comes in.

Every conflict the U.S. get into is to do with oil be it to maintain the petrodollar or control/manage as much as they can.

It will be no surprise at all that when Iraq is stabilised again, whenever that might be, prices of oil will go back up. Even though there will be more of it for sale with Iran now involved. The price was high when America benefited through their control of Iraqs oil and they and Saudi could dictate prices. But now they are having to buy it the price drops. Coincidence?

Anyway we are both agreed that they are for the watching [emoji1]

If you have an unlimited printing press of high value dollars due to the fact of the petrodollar then the cost of war matters little?

[Chip shop Joe]

You can't just keep printing money or everyone would do it. This leads to inflation, potentially hyperinflation, pushes prices up and also devalues the currency. Although the petrodollar is beneficial to the U.S. actually owning and or setting the price for the oil is infinitely more so.

[Rasta_Hibs]

You can't just keep printing money or everyone would do it. This leads to inflation, potentially hyperinflation, pushes prices up and also devalues the currency. Although the petrodollar is beneficial to the U.S. actually owning and or setting the price for the oil is infinitely more so.

You can't keep printing money? Is that not what the central banks of the western world have been doing since the financial crisis?

[Chip shop Joe]

I am not going to get into it but you can only do so much of it. Why do you think that money has a value? Because there is a finite amount of it. Why is a£50 note worth more than a £5 note? They are made of exactly the same materials!

[Rasta_Hibs]

I am not going to get into it but you can only do so much of it. Why do you think that money has a value? Because there is a finite amount of it. Why is a£50 note worth more than a £5 note? They are made of exactly the same materials!

I read that the western central banks have turned on the printing press for euros, US dollars and £'s in an effort to devalue their currencies.

[Rasta_Hibs]

Getting a wee bit side tracked here.

A US General said that they had 5 or 6 moderates left from the group they had been arming.

So who are all these moderates Russia are now bombing as there were almost none a few weeks ago according to the US military?

They (US & Saudi's) are In my mind and most other sensible people (tongue in cheek) are arming ISIS through affiliated groups in Syria.

[RyeSloan]

I am not going to get into it but you can only do so much of it. Why do you think that money has a value? Because there is a finite amount of it. Why is a£50 note worth more than a £5 note? They are made of exactly the same materials!

Sorry but you are completely wrong on that point. The very essence of a fiat currency is that there is no finite amount. New money is created every time a bank issues a loan for example and that's before you get into the crazy world of QE.

Finite currency is effectively a currency backed by a finite resource, most commonly recognised as the gold standard.

A £50 note is worth more merely because of the promise that backs it up, nothing finite or material about that.

[Chip shop Joe]

Sorry but you are completely wrong on that point. The very essence of a fiat currency is that there is no finite amount. New money is created every time a bank issues a loan for example and that's before you get into the crazy world of QE.

Finite currency is effectively a currency backed by a finite resource, most commonly recognised as the gold standard.

A £50 note is worth more merely because of the promise that backs it up, nothing finite or material about that.

As I said I am no economist[emoji1] but surely the fact remains that if you keep printing then it devalues the currency? In laymans terms if you now have too many £50 notes they now become worth, in this case £5? Again in very simple terms.

[Chip shop Joe]

Getting a wee bit side tracked here.

A US General said that they had 5 or 6 moderates left from the group they had been arming.

So who are all these moderates Russia are now bombing as there were almost none a few weeks ago according to the US military?

They (US & Saudi's) are In my mind and most other sensible people (tongue in cheek) are arming ISIS through affiliated groups in Syria.

We will just need to agree to disagree on this one[emoji1]

[RyeSloan]

As I said I am no economist[emoji1] but surely the fact remains that if you keep printing then it devalues the currency? In laymans terms if you now have too many £50 notes they now become worth, in this case £5? Again in very simple terms.

I wasn't saying that mega printing doesn't devalue...it's inflation that causes devaluation with one of the causes of course being the increased availability and therefore velocity of money. I was merely pointing out that in fiat currency technically there is no finite limit to how much you can print, the consequences of such printing though are a different matter.

[Chip shop Joe]

No probs. as I say I am no economist but even I know that continually printing money is not a good thing[emoji1]

[Rasta_Hibs]

I am no economist but that is a lot of sh**te. You do read some p*sh[emoji1].

Excuse my ignorance lol But is that not what Quantitative easing is? Creating money from thin air?

[Chip shop Joe]

That is probably one for Si but with my limited knowledge of economics QE is a limited measure to ensure against deflation and while printing more money is part of it buying bonds is of equal importance if not more. It is completely different from devaluing a currency.

[RyeSloan]

That is probably one for Si but with my limited knowledge of economics QE is a limited measure to ensure against deflation and while printing more money is part of it buying bonds is of equal importance if not more. It is completely different from devaluing a currency.

Ha QE is many things to many people but technically it should devalue currency and cause inflation (the two are separate but the same but different!)...that's exactly why the Japanese are printing their heads off right now.

The QE experiment has not though resulted in the type of inflation that all central banks crave...it has created asset inflation (look at stock market returns for the last 5 years) but it's general inflation that the banks (or more importantly the hugely indebted governments) want. There is quite a few discussions ongoing as to why that may be but the long and short of it is that central banks know as much as you and I on how to 'manage' economies and their grand plans are probably just making everything worse in the long run. The Feds inability to raise interest rates being a perfect example.

In other words we're all doomed...QE or not ;-)

[Chip shop Joe]

Ha QE is many things to many people but technically it should devalue currency and cause inflation (the two are separate but the same but different!)...that's exactly why the Japanese are printing their heads off right now.

The QE experiment has not though resulted in the type of inflation that all central banks crave...it has created asset inflation (look at stock market returns for the last 5 years) but it's general inflation that the banks (or more importantly the hugely indebted governments) want. There is quite a few discussions ongoing as to why that may be but the long and short of it is that central banks know as much as you and I on how to 'manage' economies and their grand plans are probably just making everything worse in the long run. The Feds inability to raise interest rates being a perfect example.

In other words we're all doomed...QE or not ;-)

No idea what that means and I was depressed until I saw Ritchie just score that screamer! Still no as good a left foot as Griffiths[emoji1]

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

This is most definitely true throughout history but where was the enemy in Libya? They got involved there when gaddafi who had arranged all the oil deals with them was being overthrown and their agreements were now at risk. For Libya read Iraq.

As I said before the U.S. Is bring completely imperialistic and I agree with vlad but I believe it's reasons for doing so are for oil and therefore supporting ISIS does not make sense.

The CIA did train and fund bin laden when he was in a direct war with Russia who they were in an arms race with.

Things have now changed, the cold war has ended and while they are still at loggerheads most actions are carried out behind the scenes cyber warfare etc.

I think you are looking back on US involvement with mujahadeen in Afghanistan with too much hindsight. US intervention there was a huge success, it embroiled the USSR in an intractable conflict that hastened their demise, and all for fairly minimal involvement from the US side. Job done.

That many of those mujahadeen became the basis for Al Qaeda is irritating to them, but it doesn't detract from the success of the initial intervention.

Regards Syria, i think its a really difficult one, because nobody knows what the US objective is. We can all speculate, and will generally come up with a view which is tainted by our own specific political leanings.

What is clear is that the USA is NOT stupid. Their intelligence will be among the best in the world, they will have round the clock surveillance form satellites, drones et al, i doubt there is much goign on in Syria that they are not aware of.

Maybe the USA is playing a very clever game, by provoking Russia into a conflict over what is to the West, fairly non-strategic territory but to Russia is hugely important. Therefore causing Russia to downgrade its operations in Ukraine and Eastern Europe, which it is already doing knowing that it would have to step-in to protect its ally. This allows the West to secure Ukraine and the Baltics, and all Russia has to gain is a piece of territory it had to begin with (i.e. its base in Syria). And that's assuming Russia doesn't become embroiled in another long, drawn out conflict.

I'm not saying that is the case, but its one scenario.

I think that rather than being some malign influence around the world orchestrating events, most spy agencies such as the CIA are reactive, and will try to take existing conditions and manipulate them to suit their own ends. The West didn't create the Arab Spring, but we did try to use it. Likewise, we didn't create the war in Syria, but tried to exploit it.

I don't believe that the West would deliberately fund ISIS, but i do believe we would be quite happy for various elements to slug it out, and Russia adding to the mix is only a problem in that it may tilt the balance of power too much in one direction and shorten what may otherwise be a long, resource and attention-sapping conflict that will occupy and impoverish Iran, Saudi, Russia, Hezbollah, AQ in Iraq etc.

Personally, i'm all for Russia stabilizing Assad - he seems to me the best option by far for us.

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

It is definitely true that the petrodollar was an absolute Master stroke by the Americans.

Besides the horrific nature of war it is also bloody expensive. Why would they keep doing it if it is costing literally trillions of dollars? No country even with Americas wealth can sustain that. They must be getting it back somehow and that is where the oil comes in.

Every conflict the U.S. get into is to do with oil be it to maintain the petrodollar or control/manage as much as they can.

It will be no surprise at all that when Iraq is stabilised again, whenever that might be, prices of oil will go back up. Even though there will be more of it for sale with Iran now involved. The price was high when America benefited through their control of Iraqs oil and they and Saudi could dictate prices. But now they are having to buy it the price drops. Coincidence?

Anyway we are both agreed that they are for the watching [emoji1]


Are the USA and Canada not among the worlds biggest producers of oil anyway?

I agree they want to control as much oil as they can, why wouldnt they? But to say every conflict they have ever got into is just clearly wrong. Its only really been the last thirty or so years that they have had a strategic focus on the middle-east. Prior to that, most of their foreign affairs adventures were to do with 'fighting communism' and ideology. and prior to that it was about Europe.

[Chip shop Joe]

Not looking back with hindsight at all my point was they trained the mujahideen in order to weaken Russia who they were in an arms race with and as you say with great success.

I think the timing of Russia's involvement has most to do with the stalemate/crease fire in Ukraine rather than anything else. The Black Sea ports are far too much of a strategic importance for Russia to let the West "take Ukraine".

The U.S. Is the biggest producer but also the biggest consumer by far. The biggest point thought is the cost of oil extraction in the US or Canada or UK for that matter versus the Middle East. A barrel of oil will always cost x amount regardless of how it is extracted that is one of the reason why the US wants Middle East oil as it substantially cheaper to extract and therefor has a huge profit margin.

Apologies for not putting a timescale on it but would have thought it pretty obvious that WW1, WW2 or Vietnam etc were not about oil[emoji1].

[Chip shop Joe]

PS I agree that the US are not stupid but i would say that Russia are at least their equal when it comes to strategic thinking and just like the U.S. Don't do anything they don't want to do neither does Vlad (not Romanov[emoji1])

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

Not looking back with hindsight at all my point was they trained the mujahideen in order to weaken Russia who they were in an arms race with and as you say with great success.

I think the timing of Russia's involvement has most to do with the stalemate/crease fire in Ukraine rather than anything else. The Black Sea ports are far too much of a strategic importance for Russia to let the West "take Ukraine".

The U.S. Is the biggest producer but also the biggest consumer by far. The biggest point thought is the cost of oil extraction in the US or Canada or UK for that matter versus the Middle East. A barrel of oil will always cost x amount regardless of how it is extracted that is one of the reason why the US wants Middle East oil as it substantially cheaper to extract and therefor has a huge profit margin.

Apologies for not putting a timescale on it but would have thought it pretty obvious that WW1, WW2 or Vietnam etc were not about oil[emoji1].


Yeah, but it was said above that the USA trained al qaeda and Bin Laden in Afghanistan. That infers a judgement call was made at the time that AQ were preferable to the Russians, which is not reflective of how the choice at the time was. The US didnt make a conscious decision to support radical islamist fighters, which i think is often inferred given what has happened since.

I would think so too, but the point is that to just say that 'all US interventions' are based on oil is not true and is reductionist, when in actual fact a whole range of strategic interests will inform all decisions, and sometimes luck/providence/events etc will take those decisions in directions they were never intended.

I agree about Russia - their own aims will be similarly complex, and i agree their problems in Ukraine are probably a major one. But simply put, losing their only military base into the med is probably the main one. The fact they can meddle in foreign affairs again for the first time in a generation, and irritate 'the west' are probably just bonuses!

[RyeSloan]

Are the USA and Canada not among the worlds biggest producers of oil anyway? I agree they want to control as much oil as they can, why wouldnt they? But to say every conflict they have ever got into is just clearly wrong. Its only really been the last thirty or so years that they have had a strategic focus on the middle-east. Prior to that, most of their foreign affairs adventures were to do with 'fighting communism' and ideology. and prior to that it was about Europe.

The domestic US oil production is a good point...there net imports are something like only 25% of their consumption now and even then the majority of imports come from Canada and other non gulf states. In a world where transportation and energy generation is looking more to electric than oil their need for imported oil may well drop further.

In other words the strategic importance of the gulf to the U.S. in terms of oil is reducing rapidly and may soon be rather insignificant to them.

[Hibrandenburg]

The domestic US oil production is a good point...there net imports are something like only 25% of their consumption now and even then the majority of imports come from Canada and other non gulf states. In a world where transportation and energy generation is looking more to electric than oil their need for imported oil may well drop further.

In other words the strategic importance of the gulf to the U.S. in terms of oil is reducing rapidly and may soon be rather insignificant to them.

The oil in the middle east will always be of interest to the US. Even if they ever become self sufficient in oil it makes sense for them to have oil prices as high as possible, the higher the cost of oil for others the higher the production costs for US competitors.

[Chip shop Joe]

The oil in the middle east will always be of interest to the US. Even if they ever become self sufficient in oil it makes sense for them to have oil prices as high as possible, the higher the cost of oil for others the higher the production costs for US competitors.

Completely agree.

[Chip shop Joe]

I never said the U.S. Trained AQ. Who were not in existence during the Afghan war. They trained the Mujaheddin who Bin Laden was a commander of.

We will have to agree to disagree on the significance of oil in US foriegn policy.

[Chip shop Joe]

The domestic US oil production is a good point...there net imports are something like only 25% of their consumption now and even then the majority of imports come from Canada and other non gulf states. In a world where transportation and energy generation is looking more to electric than oil their need for imported oil may well drop further.

In other words the strategic importance of the gulf to the U.S. in terms of oil is reducing rapidly and may soon be rather insignificant to them.

Sorry Si but I completely disagree with this. Just how is the strategic importance of oil to the US diminishing? Oil is finite and it is only going to get more important. How many electric cars are currently owned? How many were there 10 years ago? How long do you reckon before electric cars outweigh petrol 20, 30, 40, 50 years? And this is in the west. What about India. Soon to be the biggest population in the world. When do you think they will replace their vehicles?

[lord bunberry]

Sorry Si but I completely disagree with this. Just how is the strategic importance of oil to the US diminishing? Oil is finite and it is only going to get more important. How many electric cars are currently owned? How many were there 10 years ago? How long do you reckon before electric cars outweigh petrol 20, 30, 40, 50 years? And this is in the west. What about India. Soon to be the biggest population in the world. When do you think they will replace their vehicles?
America has done a great deal to promote electric cars and is way ahead of most countries in terms of % of cars on the road. Most European countries have gone down the diesel route, whereas the US have chosen to go down the hybrid and electric route. I suspect this is one of the reasons they've come down so heavy on VW.

[Chip shop Joe]

Fair dos but they also have a lot of 6litre cars[emoji1]I still maintain that the world as a whole will be oil dependant on for at least another generation.

[RyeSloan]

Sorry Si but I completely disagree with this. Just how is the strategic importance of oil to the US diminishing? Oil is finite and it is only going to get more important. How many electric cars are currently owned? How many were there 10 years ago? How long do you reckon before electric cars outweigh petrol 20, 30, 40, 50 years? And this is in the west. What about India. Soon to be the biggest population in the world. When do you think they will replace their vehicles?

It's where the oil comes from that's important though. Do you think the Iraq war would have happened if the U.S. was self sufficient in oil?

I'm not talking absolutes of course but with rising shale extraction and plentiful 'local' providers the Middle East just isn't as important to the U.S. as it was. Add in the rise and rise of EV's, solar etc and their dependence on Middle Eastern oil looks only likely to diminish further.

As for the U.S. wanting the oil price as high as possible...I'm not so sure. A low oil price helps drive its economy higher(even after accounting for the pain in its energy sectors) and significantly hurts some of its strategic rivals.

[Chip shop Joe]

It's where the oil comes from that's important though. Do you think the Iraq war would have happened if the U.S. was self sufficient in oil?

I'm not talking absolutes of course but with rising shale extraction and plentiful 'local' providers the Middle East just isn't as important to the U.S. as it was. Add in the rise and rise of EV's, solar etc and their dependence on Middle Eastern oil looks only likely to diminish further.

As for the U.S. wanting the oil price as high as possible...I'm not so sure. A low oil price helps drive its economy higher(even after accounting for the pain in its energy sectors) and significantly hurts some of its strategic rivals.

But that is exactly my point. That is why America is so interested in oil they don't have enough and in my opinion the reasons why they are not funding ISIS, seems like a lifetime ago but that is the thread we are in and ergo why they have lifted the sanctions on Iran, got into the Libya conflict etc

Be it shake or whatever it is finite and anyone who can control the most of it is in a position of strength

[Chip shop Joe]

For shake read shale[emoji1]. There are certainly rumours that the U.S. And Saudi are keeping prices low to impact on Russia and ISIS but I don't know about the economics of this but again it would fit in with the U.S. No longer having Iraqi oil and thus it is happy for its rivals to take the hit and when ISIS are defeated again whenever this might be they will go up!

[RyeSloan]

But that is exactly my point. That is why America is so interested in oil they don't have enough and in my opinion the reasons why they are not funding ISIS, seems like a lifetime ago but that is the thread we are in and ergo why they have lifted the sanctions on Iran, got into the Libya conflict etc Be it shake or whatever it is finite and anyone who can control the most of it is in a position of strength

Oh for sure...I'm just minded to think that in terms of its weighting in the consideration of US foreign policy it might not be as big as it once was and can see sense in the idea that it will probably slip further due to technological advances (both in domestic and near domestic oil extraction and the rise of alternatives). That in turn may show up in their eagerness or otherwise in the Middle East.


Oil or not I doubt however that they are willingly funding ISIS but can easily see how ISIS may ultimately gain funding from US connected entities...corruption in the use of government money is a global art form after all!


So after all that I think we've maybe reached qualified agreement ;-)

[Chip shop Joe]

I can live with that[emoji1]. My wife is raging how much time I am spending on this forum! That's what bloody international breaks will do to you[emoji1] now what about Malonga lazy or "just his style"[emoji1]

[RyeSloan]

I can live with that[emoji1]. My wife is raging how much time I am spending on this forum! That's what bloody international breaks will do to you[emoji1] now what about Malonga lazy or "just his style"[emoji1]

I'm with you, the Interlull's are brutal....as for Malonga...let's not even go there!! :-)

[Betty Boop]

97 dead and hundreds injured at a pro Kurdish peace rally in Ankara, and also reports of the Third Intifada in the Occupied Territories, violence appears to be spreading right across the region. Sad times.

[GreenLake]

America has done a great deal to promote electric cars and is way ahead of most countries in terms of % of cars on the road. Most European countries have gone down the diesel route, whereas the US have chosen to go down the hybrid and electric route. I suspect this is one of the reasons they've come down so heavy on VW.

Along with the meagre political contributions made by VW compared to GM.