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Pretty Boy
09-08-2015, 09:50 AM
A lot has been said in recent days, especially since about 4.50 yesterday about where Hibs 'should' be in the game. I thought I'd have a wee look at us over the last 25 years and compare that to Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen. I'm not making any massive point here, just thought it was quite interesting to see how expectations (generally minimum top 6 and competing later stages of cups) compares to reality.

Hibernian since season 1990/91:

Average league position - 6.65 (98/99 and 14/15 excluded)
Relegations - 2
Trophies won - 2 x League Cup
Finals competed - 7
Average attendance - 10521 (excluding 14/15 and 07/08 as can't find the info)

Hearts -

Average league position - 4.95 (excluding 14/15)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 3 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 12999

Aberdeen

Average league position - 5.58
Relegation - 0 (finished bottom in 99/00 but no relegation due to reconstruction)
Trophies won - 2 x League Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 10587

Dundee Utd

Average League Position - 6 (excluding 95/96)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 2 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 8
Average attendance - 8435

As I said no real point. All 4 have had ups and downs. Hibs have been very good at getting to the later stages of cups but have generally underperformed (based on expectation) in the league. Craig Leveins record at both Hearts and Dundee Utd in cups is poor but very decent in the league. Aberdeen have had both consistent spells of top 4 finishes balanced with several bottom 6 finishes. Despite Hearts fans claims there isn't a massive variable in attendances between them, us and Aberdeen (and their attendance figure for a couple of season is bumped up due to crowds of 27K+ and 35K+ at Murrayfield).

Sir David Gray
09-08-2015, 09:59 AM
I don't see why it should be deemed unrealistic to expect Hibs to be competing with the best sides in the country, outwith Celtic obviously.

We have the infrastructure and resources to compete with the clubs you mention and that is absolutely where we should be looking to be.

HUTCHYHIBBY
09-08-2015, 10:01 AM
Finishing above teams like Ross Co, Dundee, Killie, Motherwell etc seems reasonable enough not kicking about in the 2nd tier for at least a couple of seasons.

Pretty Boy
09-08-2015, 10:07 AM
I don't see why it should be deemed unrealistic to expect Hibs to be competing with the best sides in the country, outwith Celtic obviously.

We have the infrastructure and resources to compete with the clubs you mention and that is absolutely where we should be looking to be.

I don't disagree.

Just thought it would be interesting to see how close to reality that has been for the 'bigger' sides in recent years. Seems for all of us it has been achieved some years and we have failed miserably others. Hearts have arguably been the most consistent but the inflated wages they were paying, from at least the time of the SMG investment, probably contributed to that.

gillythehibby
09-08-2015, 10:18 AM
Hibernian FC should be competing top 4\5 every season. No argument. Alas it's not as easy as that as we all know !

blackpoolhibs
09-08-2015, 10:53 AM
I expect us to be fighting EVERY season for Europe through our league position, and with decent draws have good runs in the cup.

The cups being one off games could go either way, and we could lose at any time, but over a season we SHOULD be fighting for 4th place at least EVERY season.

Yet here we are with a fabulous training ground, and a terrific ground languishing for the 2nd season in the 2nd division of Scottish football.

With EVERYTHING in place, what's happened and why?

And when can we realistically expect to be achieving the points i made, personally i don't see it happening soon?

Yes i know it's boring, but you know what's even more boring, Hibs v Dumbarton or Alloa or Livingston or QOS or Raith bloody Rovers.

green day
09-08-2015, 10:58 AM
A lot has been said in recent days, especially since about 4.50 yesterday about where Hibs 'should' be in the game. I thought I'd have a wee look at us over the last 25 years and compare that to Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen. I'm not making any massive point here, just thought it was quite interesting to see how expectations (generally minimum top 6 and competing later stages of cups) compares to reality.

Hibernian since season 1990/91:

Average league position - 6.65 (98/99 and 14/15 excluded)
Relegations - 2
Trophies won - 2 x League Cup
Finals competed - 7
Average attendance - 10521 (excluding 14/15 and 07/08 as can't find the info)

Hearts -

Average league position - 4.95 (excluding 14/15)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 3 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 12999

Aberdeen

Average league position - 5.58
Relegation - 0 (finished bottom in 99/00 but no relegation due to reconstruction)
Trophies won - 2 x League Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 10587

Dundee Utd

Average League Position - 6 (excluding 95/96)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 2 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 8
Average attendance - 8435

As I said no real point. All 4 have had ups and downs. Hibs have been very good at getting to the later stages of cups but have generally underperformed (based on expectation) in the league. Craig Leveins record at both Hearts and Dundee Utd in cups is poor but very decent in the league. Aberdeen have had both consistent spells of top 4 finishes balanced with several bottom 6 finishes. Despite Hearts fans claims there isn't a massive variable in attendances between them, us and Aberdeen (and their attendance figure for a couple of season is bumped up due to crowds of 27K+ and 35K+ at Murrayfield).

Very interesting and points out that we have not been quite as bad as some people think.

....however, the current (minimum) 2 seasons minimum in championship will really bugger those stats up!!!

NAE NOOKIE
09-08-2015, 11:31 AM
To expect a club with a support and facilities which easily put it in the top 6 clubs in the country to be .... A) in the top league .... and B) a top 6 club more often than not, is hardly unrealistic. I'm sure I saw somewhere that since the split was introduced Hibs have won one ( that's one ) post split match. I would say it isn't expecting the world for us to be doing better than that.

Scouse Hibee
09-08-2015, 11:32 AM
I expect **** all from Hibs, I'm rarely disappointed. ;-)

emerald green
09-08-2015, 11:48 AM
Good OP, but it is not unrealistic for Hibs supporters to expect their team to beat part time clubs like Dumbarton, particularly when one considers Hibs resources compared to theirs.

IIRC this is not a recent one-off, i.e. getting beat by a part time club. It doesn't matter a jot that Hibs had 60% possession bla bla bla because they still got beat. It's results that matter.

Hibs recently paid £100,000 was it to St Mirren to secure John McGinn's signature. Clubs like Dumbarton can only dream of doing that, yet they are beating Hibs. Something is wrong somewhere.

steviehibsleith
09-08-2015, 11:57 AM
Good OP, but it is not unrealistic for Hibs supporters to expect their team to beat part time clubs like Dumbarton, particularly when one considers Hibs resources compared to theirs.

IIRC this is not a recent one-off, i.e. getting beat by a part time club. It doesn't matter a jot that Hibs had 60% possession bla bla bla because they still got beat. It's results that matter.

Hibs recently paid £100,000 was it to St Mirren to secure John McGinn's signature. Clubs like Dumbarton can only dream of doing that, yet they are beating Hibs. Something is wrong somewhere.
Agree how many teams even in the SPL can pay £100,000 to sign a player Also how much are we paying our first team players because if it 2/3/4 times as much as a Dumbarton player then of course we should be beating them. If not we have the wrong players being paid too much.

NORTHERNHIBBY
09-08-2015, 12:09 PM
Guess we need a breakdown of what we spend the income on. That's another debate I suppose but I think it is fair comment that teams like Ross County and St Johnstone who do much better with much less
, will focus primarily on the first team squad for this season and youth policy or training facilities are a distance away from the starting eleven.

Hibernia&Alba
09-08-2015, 12:47 PM
Hibernian FC should be competing top 4\5 every season. No argument. Alas it's not as easy as that as we all know !

I was thinking about our realistic expectations last night. This was my thinking:

Group 1 - The Old Firm. Expecting to win the SPL, doubles, trebles, and qualify for the Champions League group stages. Rangers' situation of late obviously alters the norm.

Group 2 - Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United. These clubs should be competing to be Scotland's third force, looking to play in the Europa League and to win a domestic cup every few years. We're miles from minimum expectations at the moment.

Group 3 - Motherwell, Killie, Dundee and perhaps a couple of others. Minimum expectations to maintain SPL status and win a domestic cup once in a blue moon.

Group 4 - Hamilton, St Mirren, Partick and several others. Minimum expectations to have periods in the SPL. No trophy expectations but you can always dream.


We can discuss which clubs belong in which category, as expectations change over time. But Hibs should always be looking to finish in the upper echelons of the SPL and to target a cup win. So, as things stand I can draw no other conclusion than our being the biggest underachievers in Scottish football, falling far behind minimum expectations. For almost a decade now we've been on a downward trajectory and have become increasingly accustomed to mediocrity.

So no, it isn't a case of expectations being too high at Hibs, rather it's a case of our falling woefully short of potential. Third largest club stadium in the country, great facilities, large support; but just look at us.

Feed McGraw
09-08-2015, 12:53 PM
Considering Hibs standing in Scottish football, I would say the Hibs support in general has pretty low expectations. Sadly, even these low expectations are rarely attained.

Spike Mandela
09-08-2015, 12:56 PM
My only 'realistic' expectations approaching every season are that we won't be relegated and in the rare event that we do get relegated we will come straight back up the following year.

My realism is being stretched to it's very limit.:cb

Keith_M
09-08-2015, 12:57 PM
I expect Hibs to hump teams like Dumbarton in every single game.


Is that unrealistic?

Hibernia&Alba
09-08-2015, 01:02 PM
I expect Hibs to hump teams like Dumbarton in every single game.


Is that unrealistic?

Absolutely not. It's the thought of defeat at Dumbarton that should be incredible and unrealistic. We have a lot to be proud of: like I said, stadium and support to name two. The fact we averaged over ten thousand for home games last season is a credit to the Hibs fans and demonstrates the loyalty and endurance of the support. But the team never seems to tire of showing us up; yesterday being the latest example.

Andy74
09-08-2015, 01:16 PM
This might have been a relevant question when we were concerned about only being a mid table top league team. Dumbarton though?

Pretty Boy
09-08-2015, 01:33 PM
I think a few people may have misunderstood my OP, and I admit the timing is poor, my post was in no way meant as a defence of yesterday or our current position. It was more related to where we see ourselves in 3, 4 or 5 years say and how that relates to recent history.

blackpoolhibs
09-08-2015, 01:43 PM
I think a few people may have misunderstood my OP, and I admit the timing is poor, my post was in no way meant as a defence of yesterday or our current position. It was more related to where we see ourselves in 3, 4 or 5 years say and how that relates to recent history.


We were told that build the new training centre, get the stadium finished and things would look after themselves. The two things were intertwined into the glorious future we'd all see with the foundations these two projects would give us.

Now its buy HSL and get your arse back to Easter road, if i'm honest i have no idea where we might be this time next season or the year after that?

:confused:

Onion
09-08-2015, 02:00 PM
Stats are interesting but the kind of thing Petrie and a weak Board/Owner might throw at customers to try convince them that things are not that bad. Given there's no chance of winning the league, the Scottish Cup and Derby records take on extra importance to the feelgood factor. Over the last 25 years, on both counts, Hearts have owned Hibs.

Euro qualification, top 6, league position, relegation and even cup finals are mere side-shows. Winning the Cup and beating your local rivals are what matters most. :rolleyes:

Carheenlea
09-08-2015, 02:01 PM
So no, it isn't a case of expectations being too high at Hibs, rather it's a case of our falling woefully short of potential. Third largest club stadium in the country, great facilities, large support; but just look at us.

Agree wholeheartedly with this :agree:

GreenLake
09-08-2015, 02:36 PM
I saw an omen yesterday while driving so I am expecting things to turn for the better.

15249

Ozyhibby
09-08-2015, 02:36 PM
If we are not promoted this season then we will have been below the mighty Ross County for 7 years.
My expectations are not being met and I don't think that's unrealistic.

hibeesjoe
09-08-2015, 05:43 PM
I genuinely expect hibs to get promoted this season. We can't afford to stay down in the championship for much longer and attendances prove the point. I remember a couple of seasons back we sold out the stadium for a game. First time since we built the new East. The fans are out there somewhere but as a club we have under achieved for years.

Bishop Hibee
09-08-2015, 05:50 PM
If getting promotion is 'unrealistic' then I'm guilty of it! St Johnstone have finished top 6 for the last 4 seasons in a row. That's the sort of expectations I gave for Hibs. Miles away from achieving that obviously.

Pete
09-08-2015, 06:01 PM
Based on our size and resources we should be top six every year minimum. You can maybe explain one or two anomalies but it takes a special kind of crap leadership to get us to the level we've ended up. It's bizarre.

Albion Hibs
09-08-2015, 06:01 PM
No, not in the slightest. In fact I think our expectations are too low.

we used to verbally destroy managers and players for not finishing in the top six. We are now in our 2nd season in the 2nd tier, we got thumped 6-2 last week and beat off a part time team this week.

ancient hibee
09-08-2015, 06:45 PM
A lot has been said in recent days, especially since about 4.50 yesterday about where Hibs 'should' be in the game. I thought I'd have a wee look at us over the last 25 years and compare that to Hearts, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen. I'm not making any massive point here, just thought it was quite interesting to see how expectations (generally minimum top 6 and competing later stages of cups) compares to reality.

Hibernian since season 1990/91:

Average league position - 6.65 (98/99 and 14/15 excluded)
Relegations - 2
Trophies won - 2 x League Cup
Finals competed - 7
Average attendance - 10521 (excluding 14/15 and 07/08 as can't find the info)

Hearts -

Average league position - 4.95 (excluding 14/15)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 3 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 12999

Aberdeen

Average league position - 5.58
Relegation - 0 (finished bottom in 99/00 but no relegation due to reconstruction)
Trophies won - 2 x League Cups
Finals competed - 6
Average attendance - 10587

Dundee Utd

Average League Position - 6 (excluding 95/96)
Relegations - 1
Trophies won - 2 x Scottish Cups
Finals competed - 8
Average attendance - 8435

As I said no real point. All 4 have had ups and downs. Hibs have been very good at getting to the later stages of cups but have generally underperformed (based on expectation) in the league. Craig Leveins record at both Hearts and Dundee Utd in cups is poor but very decent in the league. Aberdeen have had both consistent spells of top 4 finishes balanced with several bottom 6 finishes. Despite Hearts fans claims there isn't a massive variable in attendances between them, us and Aberdeen (and their attendance figure for a couple of season is bumped up due to crowds of 27K+ and 35K+ at Murrayfield).

Actually I think Hearts having an attendance averaging 25%more than us is massive and should have put them in a strong financial position-shows what a dreadful mess they made.Hibs should always be challenging for top four.That we have not done that over decades just shows we have underachieved consistently and have had no game plan to do anything other than survive.Not good enough by a long way.The club were right to set up a proper training ground and improve Easter Road but that should only have been part of the way forward.The way the playing side has been neglected since we won the League Cup is unforgivable.A great deal is made of the management ensuring that players signed must be the "right type"and fit in-personally I think it's time we started signing some right ba****ds.

Seekyit
09-08-2015, 07:09 PM
This’ll be the right thread to say that I was taken to my first Hibs match 40 years ago today, 9th August 1975. 2-0 versus Dundee at Easter Road, League Cup, group stage.


With this in mind I did some stats of my own recently:-


In my 40 years of watching Hibs we have finished 3rd four times. We have finished 4th three times. We have finished between 5th and 8th twenty times. We have finished between 9th and 11th nine times. We have spent three seasons in the second tier of Scottish football.


9 finals. Won two, lost seven.


21 semi-finals. Lost twelve, won nine.


Qualified for Europe 8 times.


In answer to the OP, yes I think we expect too much sometimes, but I don’t expect to be in the second tier. I expect us to be in the top tier, at the higher end of it – maybe not always, I can accept mid table given who we are (we’ll always have transitional periods due to turnovers of personnel), but Division One, as I call it, no.


Correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above stats btw.

rcarter1
09-08-2015, 07:29 PM
I was thinking about our realistic expectations last night. This was my thinking:

Group 2 - Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee United. These clubs should be competing to be Scotland's third force, looking to play in the Europa League and to win a domestic cup every few years. We're miles from minimum expectations at the moment.

We can discuss which clubs belong in which category, as expectations change over time. But Hibs should always be looking to finish in the upper echelons of the SPL and to target a cup win. So, as things stand I can draw no other conclusion than our being the biggest underachievers in Scottish football, falling far behind minimum expectations. For almost a decade now we've been on a downward trajectory and have become increasingly accustomed to mediocrity.

So no, it isn't a case of expectations being too high at Hibs, rather it's a case of our falling woefully short of potential. Third largest club stadium in the country, great facilities, large support; but just look at us.

Focussing on Group 2 which is to some extent a decent group to sample from stature/attendance wise (apologies Dundee, Motherwell, Killie, and latterly St Johnstone, ICT, etc etc).

Hibs as we all know have been in the dumps for 4-5 years (at least). Taking the last decade for all clubs in group 2 you get the following stats.

(Ive given Hibs and Hearts two stats, one in parenthesis which includes a 'league placement of 13 and 14 for Championship finishes, and the other stat which is an average of only the 9 SPL finishes).

Team Ave League Pos Ave Attendance Cups
Hibs (7.45) 6.8 12031 1
Hearts (6.45) 5.8 14723 2
Aberdeen 5.9 11675 1
Dundee Utd 5.8 7885 1

Dundee United clearly getting things right from a limited fan base, Hibs currently the weakest link. Hearts are wonderfully average (for a BIIIG team).

GreenCastle
10-08-2015, 11:19 AM
It's pretty simple..without all the figures etc..

Winning the SPFL I would say is unrealistic.

Competing to be best of the rest is far from unrealisitc - especially when you look at the other clubs who have come 2nd and won silverware over the last few years.

We have the resources and infrastructure in place to do so - more than others do.

We are massively under achieving / performing and as a club we have been in a downward spiral and mess too long.

What drives me mad is when fans start to accept where we are - it's a disgrace we ever ended up in this league and for all the money the club take in they need to show improvements very soon or the board will be getting serious questions asked once again.

rcarter1
10-08-2015, 11:26 AM
It's pretty simple..without all the figures etc..

Winning the SPFL I would say is unrealistic.

Competing to be best of the rest is far from unrealisitc - especially when you look at the other clubs who have come 2nd and won silverware over the last few years.

We have the resources and infrastructure in place to do so - more than others do.

We are massively under achieving / performing and as a club we have been in a downward spiral and mess too long.

What drives me mad is when fans start to accept where we are - it's a disgrace we ever ended up in this league and for all the money the club take in they need to show improvements very soon or the board will be getting serious questions asked once again.

Agree, our (the fans) expectations are completely normal for the size of the club. I remember Pat Fenlon being surprised that the fans were upset by being brushed aside at home to Aberdeen. A direct rival size wise, of course we were, and on the rare occasion Hibs might do that to Aberdeen at Pittodrie, their fans would be unhappy as well. Its the people who have managed/run the club who have not stepped to the plate in terms of meeting very achievable and realistic expectations!

Bad Martini
10-08-2015, 11:34 AM
I remember the last (before last season) trip to the first divison. It was fraught with potential for glorious failures and **** ups. However, we all (most of us then) had a real belief we would do it, yes, we'd **** up but we'd do it.

In the end, we ****ed up a couple of times but won the league and didnt really sweat too much doing it.

Fair?

Fast forward on and after all the talk, talk and more talk, we are once again finding ourselves starting on the wrong foot. We have all made excuses but secretly (or openly depending on how torn faced you are and your threshold for moaning into trollisim) do now realise that the time to stop ****ing around and making excuses is gone.

We need to win this week. And we need to start winning every week. That much is obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain. BUT, we need to start beliving we wont get slapped of some part timers and that nagging thought at the back of our minds. Sorry to say but until some results and play convinces me otherwise, I start the season nervy. I Wasnt three weeks ago. I am now. And if thats me as a fan, I can imagine our players are the same.

Its time for them absolutely grow a set and forget the possibility of losing. A wise man had hit the nail on the heid when he said "Aim for the sky and you'll reach the ceiling"....

Are we in a crisis? No. DO we have unrealistic expectations? No. WE should be skelping part timers off the pitch with experience and fitness. Rangers was not of a great concern. Dumbarton is not good. Let there be no more excuses or **** ups....

ENDOF

Islington Hibs
10-08-2015, 11:39 AM
It's pretty simple..without all the figures etc..

Winning the SPFL I would say is unrealistic.

Competing to be best of the rest is far from unrealisitc - especially when you look at the other clubs who have come 2nd and won silverware over the last few years.

We have the resources and infrastructure in place to do so - more than others do.

We are massively under achieving / performing and as a club we have been in a downward spiral and mess too long.

What drives me mad is when fans start to accept where we are - it's a disgrace we ever ended up in this league and for all the money the club take in they need to show improvements very soon or the board will be getting serious questions asked once again.


I have supported Hibs since 1978 and absolutely we have underperformed more than any Scottish club, relative to our size, with the possible exception of Dundee. Since 1978 Aberdeen and Dundee Utd have won the league and Hearts came mighty close. In no single season have we seriously challenged. We have been consistent mid table dullards often near the wrong end. We have rarely qualified for Europe- a generation before we barely ever missed a European night. Our record against our local rivals has been lamentable and we have usually (but not always) bottled it when it really counted. Latterly some of our under-performance was because we were playing by the rules, while others spent other peoples money, but that really only explains the last decade.

There is little doubt we have the potential to be a top three club and our support is still pretty large but we have lost the habit of success and belief. Our support remains disillusioned and prone to either over-confidence or nagging doubt. Just look how the mood on this board has changed from rejoicing over each new signing to bitterness over one, admittedly bad, defeat. However the wheel can change. When I first started supporting Hibs it was Hearts that were the joke. For the first time I can remember we are starting to act in a professional and outward way. Our time will come again. Keep the faith!

Waxy
10-08-2015, 11:44 AM
When you look at the players we have now it's clear its not unrealistic for us to win this division. The team clearly underperformed at the weekend and are capable of so much better.Hopefully starting this weekend.

Diclonius
10-08-2015, 11:46 AM
Don't worry guys, Hibs have just been promoted under Ian Murray on my Football Manager save. They've won the Championship in season 2018-19. :aok:

Jim44
10-08-2015, 11:52 AM
If we are not promoted this season then we will have been below the mighty Ross County for 7 years.
My expectations are not being met and I don't think that's unrealistic.

Wow, that's a staggering statistic and one that earns us the mantle of a team struggling to be mediocre. It seems like yesterday that we were moaning about the boring leadership of Alex Miller and his negative caution........... oh, what bliss!

NAE NOOKIE
10-08-2015, 12:09 PM
This’ll be the right thread to say that I was taken to my first Hibs match 40 years ago today, 9th August 1975. 2-0 versus Dundee at Easter Road, League Cup, group stage.


With this in mind I did some stats of my own recently:-


In my 40 years of watching Hibs we have finished 3rd four times. We have finished 4th three times. We have finished between 5th and 8th twenty times. We have finished between 9th and 11th nine times. We have spent three seasons in the second tier of Scottish football.


9 finals. Won two, lost seven.


21 semi-finals. Lost twelve, won nine.


Qualified for Europe 8 times.


In answer to the OP, yes I think we expect too much sometimes, but I don’t expect to be in the second tier. I expect us to be in the top tier, at the higher end of it – maybe not always, I can accept mid table given who we are (we’ll always have transitional periods due to turnovers of personnel), but Division One, as I call it, no.


Correct me if I’m wrong about any of the above stats btw.My time watching Hibs is exactly the same as yours ( since 1975 ) you have forgotten to add our shocking derby record ..... Played = 140 ....... won = 32 ...... drawn = 51 ....... lost = 57 .............. Even the draws favour the Yams ... 27 at ER and 14 at the Wongadome.

Tyler Durden
10-08-2015, 12:40 PM
Wow, that's a staggering statistic and one that earns us the mantle of a team struggling to be mediocre. It seems like yesterday that we were moaning about the boring leadership of Alex Miller and his negative caution........... oh, what bliss!

Staggering but not actually true!

Jim44
10-08-2015, 01:02 PM
Staggering but not actually true!

Why tell me it's not true? Tell the person who made the statement. It doesn't change the rest of my post, however.

Ozyhibby
10-08-2015, 01:23 PM
Staggering but not actually true!

Apologies it's only 5 years. I hadn't realised we were doing so well. Long live Petrie.

Seekyit
10-08-2015, 01:44 PM
My time watching Hibs is exactly the same as yours ( since 1975 ) you have forgotten to add our shocking derby record ..... Played = 140 ....... won = 32 ...... drawn = 51 ....... lost = 57 .............. Even the draws favour the Yams ... 27 at ER and 14 at the Wongadome.

Maybe i didn't want to know.:greengrin

Cheers for those stats though. They're interesting, if maybe a bit painful.

sesoim
10-08-2015, 04:19 PM
Agree with most of the points here. Hibs' stats should match their crowds, spending and potential. Based on all that we should be the4th/5th club in the SPL on average. We probably should have won the Scottish Cup about five times by now, and we should be qualifying for Europe at least once every couple of years.

If we had actually performed on the pitch like we should, we'd be getting 14500 to 15000 average crowds like we were in 2006-2007, and if we were getting these crowds we'd be able to sign better players and the crowds would have gone even higher, and so on. But the poor managers, the bad signings, and the resultant diminishing crowds have dragged us down

GreenCastle
10-08-2015, 05:25 PM
Agree with most of the points here. Hibs' stats should match their crowds, spending and potential. Based on all that we should be the4th/5th club in the SPL on average. We probably should have won the Scottish Cup about five times by now, and we should be qualifying for Europe at least once every couple of years.

If we had actually performed on the pitch like we should, we'd be getting 14500 to 15000 average crowds like we were in 2006-2007, and if we were getting these crowds we'd be able to sign better players and the crowds would have gone even higher, and so on. But the poor managers, the bad signings, and the resultant diminishing crowds have dragged us down

You forgot the main constant in all this...those responsible on the board - many of what happened over the years could have been avoided if we had better leadership from the top.

The number of dud appointments they have made has cost us severely :bitchy:

IberianHibernian
10-08-2015, 10:14 PM
Interesting thread . A few general points : 1. Looking at our results and those of Hearts , Aberdeen and Dundee United ( though smaller population in 2 - club city makes it harder for Arabs to be considered with other 3 clubs ) it`s obviously much harder to claim best of the non OF or even just top 4 / 5 especially several years in a row than may be thought . We haven`t done well but neither have Aberdeen or Hearts ( cup successes during financial cheating years and not done much in the league - even in 2012 at height of cheating they only made top 6 on last day ) . 2. Poor results of Hearts , Aberdeen and ourselves may be because clubs are based in expensive cities meaning higher rates , accommodation for players , managers , trialists etc. 3. Clubs like Hibs ( and Hearts and Aberdeen ) can`t handle greater expectation - we`ve blown great chances like in last year`s Scottish Cup , Aberdeen have lost to lower league teams a lot recently and even at peak of cheating years Hearts needed penalties to beat Gretna . 4. Clubs in Scotland can`t afford to sign players that really make a difference - very few if any Scottish players are outstanding ( even half the present Scotland team wouldn`t significantly improve Scottish clubs let alone clubs in stronger leagues ) and gone are the days when a Sauzee or Latapy would come here ( or even a Luna who`d played in Spain`s top league just before joining Dundee , now players from Spain`s 3rd division ( 4 groups of 20 teams many playing in stadiums like junior ones in Scptland ) are getting a regular game in Premiership ) . So even against part - time Dumbarton our players don`t have enough extra quality to make the difference pay .
All the above is relevant for Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen and probably some other clubs too . For us only , we have obviously underperformed in the last 25 / 35.... years for all the reasons above ( point 4 , we can sign players like Liam Craig who have done well at their previous clubs in the same league as us but that doesn`t mean we`ll be significantly better if at all than the selling club , Craig is only one example ) . From a distance ( which sometimes is a good way to observe an organisation ) I think the underperforming is down to very poor promotion of club and lack of ambition . For example , while Hearts were struggling to survive , they were still getting press releases about their great young players and supposed interest from abroad etc yet none of these players have earned a big transfer fee and almost none play for Hearts now except for 10 minutes when a match is decided . But have we let the press and other clubs all over Europe know we also have some good young players ? I imagine this may affect which young players choose to sign for us . There have been numerous ideas to boost walk - up crowds ( contacting students , contacting Poles and other immigrant groups , links with Hibs supporters in Ireland , London etc ,deals for groups , offers for unemployed , ideas to boost away crowds at ER , etc etc ) and almost all seem to have been acted on but often only once ( posters in Polish a year or two ago - were they repeated ? visit to Ireland when Williamson was manager - was anything else similar done ? , are there any flyers or posters in hotels and guest houses during festival ? ) . Merchandise ? Does anyone at club really think that we have maximised profits here in last 10 years ? HSL - great idea but do enough people know about it and has press been fed a positive image of it ? Do enquirers get a prompt and thorough reply ? Sponsors - no alternatives to betting companies and booze companies that will always limit shirt sales ? For onfield problems easy answer is to criticise managers but have they all been bad managers ? Don`t think so even if some have failed at other clubs after leaving us . Maybe they should have been backed more financially and / or with assistants . Of course I have read about the new regime at ER but still think it`s too soon for all the praise about the new set up - far too soon to say management team or directors have earned any praise .
Could go on and on and it`s probably not the right thread to do it and I`m aware that lots of fans give hours and hours of their time to attend meetings to address issues like those I`ve mentioned above ( to all those volunteers thank you ) but I think that until club really becomes professional in areas like promoting the club we won`t meet expectations very often . In fact even with best marketing team in the world we`ll struggle to make Europe every season ( I started supporting Hibs about time of Naples win so thought Europe was as normal as playing in the League and Scottish Cups and beating Hearts in at least one of the two derbies of the time with a win and a draw considered disappointing ) but more than 8 times in 40 years should be possible .

Unseen work
10-08-2015, 10:33 PM
I think with the amount of money rangers are spending on players and the amount they are paying them per week we shouldn't have a chance of winning the league, and expecting to do so may be seen as unrealistic.

However, I still expect us to win it. Wether we are good enough is another factor though.

donno
12-08-2015, 06:35 PM
Absolutely not. It's the thought of defeat at Dumbarton that should be incredible and unrealistic. We have a lot to be proud of: like I said, stadium and support to name two. The fact we averaged over ten thousand for home games last season is a credit to the Hibs fans and demonstrates the loyalty and endurance of the support. But the team never seems to tire of showing us up; yesterday being the latest example.
The problem is Petrie told us over 2 seasons ago that an average home gate of 12K was required to break even. So 10K is not enough. Don't forget that was in the prem with better kickbacks from the SPL. So we must now be running at a massive loss, even with TF refinancing us. Unless we get back in the prem this season the future is bleak. TF ain't getting younger, and has lost interest, if he ever had any. He can just keep stuffing money into the club and not expect some form of success.[emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45]

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green day
13-08-2015, 09:49 AM
The problem is Petrie told us over 2 seasons ago that an average home gate of 12K was required to break even. So 10K is not enough. Don't forget that was in the prem with better kickbacks from the SPL. So we must now be running at a massive loss, even with TF refinancing us. Unless we get back in the prem this season the future is bleak. TF ain't getting younger, and has lost interest, if he ever had any. He can just keep stuffing money into the club and not expect some form of success.[emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45] [emoji45]

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Nice try

Cropley10
13-08-2015, 06:48 PM
Interesting thread . A few general points : 1. Looking at our results and those of Hearts , Aberdeen and Dundee United ( though smaller population in 2 - club city makes it harder for Arabs to be considered with other 3 clubs ) it`s obviously much harder to claim best of the non OF or even just top 4 / 5 especially several years in a row than may be thought . We haven`t done well but neither have Aberdeen or Hearts ( cup successes during financial cheating years and not done much in the league - even in 2012 at height of cheating they only made top 6 on last day ) . 2. Poor results of Hearts , Aberdeen and ourselves may be because clubs are based in expensive cities meaning higher rates , accommodation for players , managers , trialists etc. 3. Clubs like Hibs ( and Hearts and Aberdeen ) can`t handle greater expectation - we`ve blown great chances like in last year`s Scottish Cup , Aberdeen have lost to lower league teams a lot recently and even at peak of cheating years Hearts needed penalties to beat Gretna . 4. Clubs in Scotland can`t afford to sign players that really make a difference - very few if any Scottish players are outstanding ( even half the present Scotland team wouldn`t significantly improve Scottish clubs let alone clubs in stronger leagues ) and gone are the days when a Sauzee or Latapy would come here ( or even a Luna who`d played in Spain`s top league just before joining Dundee , now players from Spain`s 3rd division ( 4 groups of 20 teams many playing in stadiums like junior ones in Scptland ) are getting a regular game in Premiership ) . So even against part - time Dumbarton our players don`t have enough extra quality to make the difference pay .
All the above is relevant for Hibs , Hearts and Aberdeen and probably some other clubs too . For us only , we have obviously underperformed in the last 25 / 35.... years for all the reasons above ( point 4 , we can sign players like Liam Craig who have done well at their previous clubs in the same league as us but that doesn`t mean we`ll be significantly better if at all than the selling club , Craig is only one example ) . From a distance ( which sometimes is a good way to observe an organisation ) I think the underperforming is down to very poor promotion of club and lack of ambition . For example , while Hearts were struggling to survive , they were still getting press releases about their great young players and supposed interest from abroad etc yet none of these players have earned a big transfer fee and almost none play for Hearts now except for 10 minutes when a match is decided . But have we let the press and other clubs all over Europe know we also have some good young players ? I imagine this may affect which young players choose to sign for us . There have been numerous ideas to boost walk - up crowds ( contacting students , contacting Poles and other immigrant groups , links with Hibs supporters in Ireland , London etc ,deals for groups , offers for unemployed , ideas to boost away crowds at ER , etc etc ) and almost all seem to have been acted on but often only once ( posters in Polish a year or two ago - were they repeated ? visit to Ireland when Williamson was manager - was anything else similar done ? , are there any flyers or posters in hotels and guest houses during festival ? ) . Merchandise ? Does anyone at club really think that we have maximised profits here in last 10 years ? HSL - great idea but do enough people know about it and has press been fed a positive image of it ? Do enquirers get a prompt and thorough reply ? Sponsors - no alternatives to betting companies and booze companies that will always limit shirt sales ? For onfield problems easy answer is to criticise managers but have they all been bad managers ? Don`t think so even if some have failed at other clubs after leaving us . Maybe they should have been backed more financially and / or with assistants . Of course I have read about the new regime at ER but still think it`s too soon for all the praise about the new set up - far too soon to say management team or directors have earned any praise .
Could go on and on and it`s probably not the right thread to do it and I`m aware that lots of fans give hours and hours of their time to attend meetings to address issues like those I`ve mentioned above ( to all those volunteers thank you ) but I think that until club really becomes professional in areas like promoting the club we won`t meet expectations very often . In fact even with best marketing team in the world we`ll struggle to make Europe every season ( I started supporting Hibs about time of Naples win so thought Europe was as normal as playing in the League and Scottish Cups and beating Hearts in at least one of the two derbies of the time with a win and a draw considered disappointing ) but more than 8 times in 40 years should be possible .

hearts nearly went bust, were docked 15 points, got relegated (just) went down, won the league at a canter and are unbeaten in 3. They make it look easy. We make it look hard.

rcarter1
13-08-2015, 07:04 PM
hearts nearly went bust, were docked 15 points, got relegated (just) went down, won the league at a canter and are unbeaten in 3. They make it look easy. We make it look hard.

Agree, its not rocket science. Identify affordable good players - have a good youth set up, sign em, enthuse em, get em on the pitch.